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HR entrepreneur Mike Coffey, SPHR, SHRM-SCP engages business thought leaders about the strategic, psychological, legal, and practical implications of bringing people together to create value for shareholders, customers, and the community. As an HR consultant, mentor to first-stage businesses through EO’s Accelerator program, and owner of Imperative—Bulletproof Background Screening, Mike is passionate about helping other professionals improve how they recruit, select, and manage their people. Most thirty-minute episodes of Good Morning, HR will be eligible for half a recertification credit for both HRCI and SHRM-certified professionals. Mike is a member of Entrepreneurs Organization (EO) Fort Worth and active with the Texas Association of Business, the Fort Worth Chamber, and Texas SHRM.
What I see now is very much a mentality of the great compromise. And Sherm talks a lot about that, right, that we really need to find that middle ground that we've been talking about in order for us to feel that this is a relationship of giving and taking, that it's in balance. It's not out of balance. So I, you know, I think that a lot of companies are very smart to think through the lens of retention because there's a tight labor market. And if you truly want to do retention right, you have to to invest in your culture and being able to give, you know, do away with that mindset of only transactions.
Mike Coffey:Good morning, HR. I'm Mike Coffey, president of Imperative. Bulletproof background checks with fast and friendly service. And this is the podcast where I talk to business leaders about bringing people together to create value for shareholders, customers, and the community. Please follow rate and review Good Morning HR wherever you get your podcast.
Mike Coffey:You can also find us on Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, or at good morning hr.com. HR is not your friend goes the popular meme on social media, especially LinkedIn and Reddit. Basically asserting that HR exists to protect the company especially when the company is in the wrong. Basically, they're saying HR's job is to screw the employees. But on the other side of that argument are many HR practitioners and socially conscious business influencers who assert that HR's role is not only to advocate for employees to management, but to police employers and act as a union steward.
Mike Coffey:Well, dear listeners, we're here today to solve this age old argument. And to do so, I'm joined by Gabriella Norton. Gabriella is the CEO of People Performance Resources, a full service human capital consulting firm that she founded in 2010. Gabriela has over 30 years experience in HR leadership and consulting roles and is a trusted adviser to organizations across the globe. Welcome to Good Morning HR, Gabriela.
Gabriela Norton:Thank you so much for having me, Mike. It's a pleasure to be with you and your listeners.
Mike Coffey:So which is it? Solve the solve the question. Is HR here for the company or for the employers?
Gabriela Norton:I want to, before I solve the mystery, to just have a chat about it. And perhaps towards the end of the podcast, we'll get to the conclusion based on my experience, if that's okay with you.
Mike Coffey:I think that's perfect because we have 30 minutes to fill here. And if you just solved it, we would we'd be have a very short
Gabriela Norton:time frame. So That's right. Let's let's keep your audience in, a little bit of of suspense. When I started my career in HR, I was very much of the mentality that I was there to protect the company, right, and that there were specific rules and regulations that we were to follow. And that based on those regulations, I was to keep everyone basically in check.
Gabriela Norton:And, you know, as I begin building my understanding of what HR was all about, I wanted to believe that there was more to that role. In fact, I started HR, because of this passion that I felt that that particular profession had the opportunity to really make a difference in the livelihood of those who were involved in that relationship, both from an employer and employee standpoint. I, you know, had experienced, a plethora of different ways in which HR became, you know, a resource that I wanted to rely upon. Right? So whether I had questions about my benefits or whether I was not necessarily getting along with a coworker, I really wanted that department to be, you know, a guide, if you will.
Gabriela Norton:And so when my directive was more towards, you know, this is very company driven, I, of course, wanted to gain my own experience. Right? And so I began doing quite a bit of research. I not only was I speaking with other HR professionals, but I was also trying things out. Right?
Gabriela Norton:I was making sure that those policies were in check, making sure that we were compliant, making sure that, you know, what the expectations of the organization for the employees were, you know, of course, were being followed. But I also I have a very inquisitive mind, and I wanted to just gain the perspective of the team. Right? And so I have to tell you that every time I walked into the break room at you know, during those years, everyone walk will walk out. Every single person will literally pick up their lunch and leave.
Gabriela Norton:And I just thought, you know, that's just not the kind of HR I wanna be. Right? And so part of my research and sort of this, I don't know, I guess exploring the possibilities of what the department could bring to the table when it came to the employees. I began just building relationships, asking questions. But I was always cognizant of the fact that there is this middle ground, right?
Gabriela Norton:This fine line that if I went too friendly, then I will lose my objectivity. If I was not, you know, relationship building enough, then, of course, I was not gaining the the consensus that I wanted to gain from the employees. So, you know, from early on, I just knew that there was a magic middle ground. Right? And through the years, I think that I continue to gain further and further evidence and experience on how to bridge the gap.
Gabriela Norton:So I I hope that that's a good opening statement as we dive deeper into the nuances of HR.
Mike Coffey:That's really good. I think a lot of HR professionals struggle with walking that line between being friends and having coworkers who aren't in HR, who you actually enjoy being with, and maybe even have lunch with, and those kinds of things, especially when they're not in management. And just being the police and just saying, you know, we can't have anything to do with you. I'm in HR. I can't have friends at work.
Mike Coffey:I see that on a lot of the HR conversation, forums about you can HR can never have friends in the organization. And quite honestly, I've always felt like when I see that, this is a person who, doesn't have the self confidence to be objective when they have to. That that this is somebody who says and I would I I you know, who says I can't when I'm faced with a business challenge, I can't trust myself to be impartial.
Gabriela Norton:Yes. Yes.
Mike Coffey:And so and I think that's a I think that's a mistake. And if you can't do that, you probably shouldn't be in leadership at all. Right. I mean, if you can't demonstrate empathy, if you can't build relationships, you should probably be turning a screwdriver someplace or something where you don't have to manage other people.
Gabriela Norton:Yes. You're spot on. And, you know, I mean, I think that this sense of finding that that middle ground is something that develops over time, and it's certainly something that it's both an art and a science. The whole profession of HR to me, it is. Right?
Gabriela Norton:And and I'm honest to say that I didn't get it right sometimes. Right? That, I have tried to go a little too far into the becoming friends because, you know, it's sort of human nature. But then I quickly realized how detrimental that will be for the company. Right?
Gabriela Norton:And then I went far, you know, too far the other side to just really have a lens of the moment that I see the 3 strikes, you're out. Right? And and that was becoming more of that police. So it is something that develops over time, but I also will say that my approach to human race resources has definitely been to provide a sense of caring, empathy, opportunity. Right?
Gabriela Norton:I I coach and I advise our clients to be overgenerous with the opportunity. Because at the end of the day, if we have to make a very tough decision to either discipline someone or to let someone go, I I wanna make sure that we've done it in a way that develops, and that really delivers respect and dignity and opportunity for that person to to really have that moment to say, you know what? Here is what I'm doing. Here is what the expectation, and here's all the empowerment that I'm given in order for me to get to that point. And if I don't get to that point, it's simply because I was not able to meet those expectations.
Gabriela Norton:And, I want to I want to empower them. I want to, you know, reward them, But I also believe that it is so key to be transparent and honest with feedback. To me, feedback is is not only, you know, a gift, but it's really a, I guess, a sign of of kindness. Right? I'd rather know if if I'm walking around with something in my face than and and, you know, have the opportunity to do something about it than no one telling me.
Gabriela Norton:And then at the end of the day, I go home and I realize, oh my gosh. You know, I had all this. So to me, it's sort of an analogy of saying, hey. There's some gaps that we can honestly talk about when it comes to employee performance and give every person the opportunity and the visibility that they need to do something about it. And I have to tell you, Mike, time and time again, I see people who, have that that new, you know, information, and they really turn things around.
Gabriela Norton:Not every time, but I will say that the majority of time, people want to show up and do a good job. Right? So why not give them that chance?
Mike Coffey:Yeah. And in my corporate world and having on my company for the last 25 years, there have been plenty of cases where I really cared about this employee, but for whatever reason, we had to have that really frank discussion about their performance and where they're going. And my goal has always been that if it comes down to a termination or even a corrective action, they that employee is never gonna be in a position where they can say, I didn't get every opportunity to be successful. And, and I and and I found that, like you say, most of the time, it's, you know, if if somebody's got the basic competencies for the job or to learn the job, and they want to do the job well, they're going to be successful. Well, the company can take that investment that they've made in this person, build on it, and may help them be successful.
Mike Coffey:I think too often, some managers wanna just pull the plug regardless of what cost and they just see it all as sunk cost. Well, we will spend our time, we invested in this person, it didn't work, so we're gonna get rid of them, versus saying, okay, if we if we give this extra 10% here and give some grace and and some effort and sweat and, you know, on our part to help this person, we're going to do good for both of that person, but also we're gonna have a return on investment for the company. So it takes us back to our question is, you know, who who is HR really about? And my argument is that the company has a mission to execute or the organization has. So it's a nonprofit.
Mike Coffey:It's got a mission. The company has a mission. Whatever you know, if it's a for profit, it's got a a profit driven basis, but also things that it wants to to bring into the world and you know, as much as we can be frustrated in HR sometimes by frontline managers and others who don't quite get it, the best we can do most in many cases, especially in large organizations, the best HR can really do is be that coach and mentor to those frontline managers or supervisors to make sure they have the skills to make those employees successful.
Gabriela Norton:Yes. So true. And, you know, there are so many great ways and best practices in which HR can set up that outcome for success. Right? So even starting at the beginning.
Gabriela Norton:Right? What does the onboarding process look like? What does the welcoming of an employee look like? I am of the opinion that in the first two days and sometimes even longer, let's not worry about making sure that the email is set up and that they understand, you know, how to use their computer. They're going to utilize that and then some.
Gabriela Norton:Right? It's really about understanding all of the cultural nuances, understanding the role. We like to develop and and and present what I call a 90 days, you know, welcoming expectations plan, where it's really spelled out what's gonna happen in the 30, 60, 90 days from a technical scale as well as from a competency leadership scale. What is expected from this, you know, individual? And then stop every 30, 60, 90 days to assess.
Gabriela Norton:These are the things that are going great. These are the things that we still need to tweak and adjust. And I have to tell you, that has been so successful. When we get to 90 days, neither party is saying, you never told me about that. I didn't know that I was supposed to be doing these things, and now you are you know, now I feel like I'm in trouble for not doing that.
Gabriela Norton:It's you know, there's a sense of transparency on the expectations. And and, you know, further than that, you know, that is sets the tone for that ongoing coaching opportunity and conversations that should be taking place, you know, with, managers and supervisors. And the role of HR is to ensure that those conversations are taking place. You know? And so this is one of the ways in which I believe that the HR department and the HR team can begin developing those, middle ground expectations where we're empowering, and we're making sure that the supervisors are doing their jobs.
Gabriela Norton:And and to your very good point, it is really going necessarily that we to think the same way. So it's not about everybody agreeing. Right? But it's really about how do we drive towards that purpose and and the way that it feels individually empowering. Right?
Gabriela Norton:And then collectively, we're really moving the needle forward.
Mike Coffey:Yeah. You know, I hear, especially college students, here and, you know, I I just, a couple weeks ago, guest lectured at the University of North Texas. I do it over here at TCU, which is right next door to us. And I'll talk to these young students who are coming into the in the emerging workforce. And I'll say, so why why are you majoring in HR?
Mike Coffey:Or why are you studying HR? And they'll say because I love people and I'm like Mhmm. Oh, if you love people you might not want to get in HR because HR there are days where HR teaches you how to hate people. You know, they just you know.
Gabriela Norton:Yes.
Mike Coffey:And, I I think what I wanna hear from one of these students is because I love business and I and I really understand how people how integral people are and people's individual contributions are to to being successful in business.
Gabriela Norton:You know, you're spot on. I mean, there there's, there are so many, elements of what you just said that are, you know, speaking to me. 1 is I can honestly say that there's been situations where they have caused me to lose my faith in humanity. Right? And I I had to really dig deep to then look at the bigger picture to say, hey.
Gabriela Norton:This is an isolated situation, and that should not define how I feel about people in general. There's also this this very unfortunate saying that that goes something like no good deed goes unpunished, and that is so common in HR. Right? But, you know, ultimately, I I do believe that the that the reason you know, one of the purposes for HR is certainly to continue to, elevate this thought of being a a well rounded business minded individual. You know, I I love when, sort of the young professionals in HR really demonstrate a sense of entrepreneurship and that they're so curious about how the overall business works.
Gabriela Norton:Right? I love it when, you know, they they are curious about having a good conversation with the CFO to understand what what is the financial impact if we were to, you know, miss out on hiring the talent that we need to or if we will lose individuals who are key players. Right? All of that comes down to money. Right?
Gabriela Norton:The ROI, whether you are a nonprofit organization or a for profit organization, that is the same. I often say that the people really is the essence of what makes an organization successful. And so thinking through the financial aspect, I really think that we need to be well versed on what does it take to make payroll and, you know, all the different intricacies of what an organization will offer the those employees. I also think that from an operational standpoint, HR professionals really need to be savvy about the impact that they're having on the operation. Right?
Gabriela Norton:Because there is no operation if the culture is falling apart. So, the the ability for an HR professional to have a lens of the business as a whole. I I I truly believe that it's integral to the success of the profession.
Mike Coffey:And let's take a quick break. Good morning HR is brought to you by Imperative, bulletproof background checks with fast and friendly service. If you're an HRCI or SHRM certified professional, this episode of good morning HR has been preapproved for 1 half hour of recertification credit. To obtain the recertification information, visit good morning hr.com and click on research credits. Then select episode 146 and enter the keyword brand.
Mike Coffey:That's f r I e n d. And if you're looking for even more recertification credit, check out the webinars page at imperativeinfo.com. Now back to my conversation with Gabriela Norton. I've seen cases where on Glassdoor, employees or former employees will say, this company is all about the bottom line, and as though that's a criticism. And for me, if that company is really all about the bottom line, they're going to be investing in their talent.
Mike Coffey:They're going to have good processes that help them recruit and select the right people, bring them in the organization in a healthy way, develop them, retain them. But also, when they realize they make the bad hire, the the person who doesn't belong there for whatever reason, they free that person up to go find another role someplace else and get them out of the organization because they're they're not the right fit. If that's what being if that's what being focused on the bottom line is, then, yes, let's do that. Now there are employers who I think are very shortsighted and are only looking at their payroll numbers right now. That's the one metric.
Mike Coffey:And how can we squeeze more, you know, more productivity out of smaller dollars. And I think short term, that might work. You see a lot of private equity firms who buy firms come in and do those kinds of things, and you can you can move that needle pretty quickly. But long term, you're not gonna collect you're not gonna retain your best talent. You're not gonna attract the people that you need in order to to really execute the mission.
Gabriela Norton:It's not sustainable. Here's spot on. Unfortunately, those companies that you're describing the latter description, I also see that they do not respect nor do they consider the partnership with their HR professionals to be that of value. Right? And, you know, we've had the the tough choice to be with clients who whose leadership was so narrow minded on the bottom dollar, and the ROI and not necessarily putting the value on the employees.
Gabriela Norton:And we've had to part ways simply because it just was not conducive to the work that we bring to the mix. And that is the first description that you provided. Right? Employers who, of course, want to be mindful about the bottom line, but they also do that by investing. Right?
Gabriela Norton:And by thinking about what is in it for our employees, not just what's in it for ourselves. And that makes a tremendous difference. Right? I and and the employees know. I mean, I think that the culture speaks louder.
Gabriela Norton:The actions of the organization will always speak louder than even the words that may come out of, you know, leadership. And, you know, it is a it is a sweet deal when we are with organizations that are truly demonstrated demonstrating that capacity of valuing the employees because then it makes the partnership with HR flourish in many ways.
Mike Coffey:I've got a relationship with a a CEO here in North Texas who's pretty, you know, pretty prominent organization, and they're pretty successful. But it's clear that his view of HR's role is that it's transactional. HR wears this administrative hat. We need them to stay in their lane, which means we can make sure payroll's out and that we have the appropriate policies and procedures. Maybe we do some training around compliance.
Mike Coffey:But that's HR's role. I don't want HR as a strategic adviser. I don't want HR talking to us about culture and all that warm and, you know, fuzzy, you know, stuff. I think that's increasingly rare. I think more, you know, more and more executives would like an HR function that is more strategic.
Mike Coffey:But, you know, I still see that sometimes where employers or company leaders are saying, you know, that's not what we need. We got that part covered just because we are such emotionally intelligent leaders ourselves. We don't need HR to do that for us. But on the flip side, I see a lot of HR people who want to be strategic but don't have a clue about how to do it. Oh, they they know the transactional police for the organization, and that's not strategic.
Mike Coffey:And so I think it I think it falls on both places, and maybe it's just a matter of the right HR person finding the right organization that wants what they're offering.
Gabriela Norton:Sure. Yes. I mean, I think that there is a number of different organizations whose whose mindset is that of, you know, transactional, very, you know, really just the bottom line is make sure that we are not going to be sued and that we're paying, you know, who we need to pay. I also think that, you know, that feeds into the mindset of HR professionals just wanting to check boxes and making sure that they are a piecing, you know, sort of the directive. You know, I'm I'm of the mindset that we should push back.
Gabriela Norton:That that by showing the value that a HR professional can bring when it comes to sort of that, you know, soft and touchy piece of the puzzle. You know, we've we've seen it through the pandemic. Right? All of a sudden, there was this great resignation movement that so many people were exiting. And many times, you know, when we saw and when we were, you know, serving some of those folks that were making moves, they often said, well, now I have the opportunity to have so many opportunities, so many choices, from an employer standpoint.
Gabriela Norton:You know? People are knocking on my door because, you know, that the labor market became so tight. And many times they will say, you know, I don't want to be a part of an organization whose culture is just show up, do your job, pick up your paycheck, and that's really what they're caring, you know, what they're most caring about. And and then we saw the movement towards, to me, the great resignation was certainly a result of the pandemic and many other ways in which our world changed. But, you know, I sometimes call it the great, I don't know, I guess, the great change, the great time for change.
Gabriela Norton:Right? That we all had some sort of change in mindset, certainly a change in the way in which we conducted business. What I see now is very much a mentality of the great compromise. And Sherm talks a lot about that. Right?
Gabriela Norton:That we really need to find that middle ground that that we've been talking about in order for us to feel that this is a relationship of giving and taking, that it's it's in balance. It's not out of balance. So I, you know, I think that a lot of companies are very smart to think through the lens of retention because there's a tight labor market. And if you truly want to do retention right, you have to to invest in your culture and being able to give, you know, do away with that mindset of only transactions.
Mike Coffey:Yeah. And we had to constantly, I think, remind ourselves and leadership that the reason we want an amazing culture is because we wanna keep the people, and we wanna attract the people, and that's got a dollar value. And so if we look just short term, if we look at this quarter's results, culture isn't gonna show up, as an, you know, as a bottom line number, But it's gonna be reflected over quarter after quarter after quarter over year over year over year with retention numbers and productivity and employer brands who are attracting the right people, and having great managers is a giant part of that.
Gabriela Norton:Mhmm.
Mike Coffey:So HR does wear you know, we've got that administrative hat. We're gonna it's it's going to be HR's job to make sure that people get paid. Doesn't mean we have to do it in house and, you know, but we're gonna have to make sure that we're, you know, we're compliant with all the laws that our managers understand what the laws are. And, you know, HR's job, you know, and I I've told plenty of our consultant clients, you know, the my I all I can do is tell you what I understand the law is and here's what I think the best practice is. I'm just your risk advisor here.
Mike Coffey:You're gonna have to make the decision. Right? And I think even internally in HR, sometimes you have to tell your leadership or your suit your supervisors, this is what the rules are. This is what the law is. This is what our company policy is.
Mike Coffey:I can't hold a gun to your head and make you do it. And if your leadership's not gonna hold you accountable as as HR, I usually don't have that ability to make those changes. Right? It's gonna be you know, we've gotta it's gonna affect leadership, and, you know, it's between that leader and and that manager. But the best we can do is be a really good risk advisor and understand this is how the company makes money.
Mike Coffey:And the more I can do to create systems that let the company make money or execute our mission, whatever it is, and do that through people. I mean, this is the podcast where I talk to business leaders about bringing people together to create value for shareholders, customers, and the community. And I think we can we can take care of all those stakeholders if we have, you know, if we have HR leaders who who think bigger than yes or no on on questions that are that are presented to them.
Gabriela Norton:Yes. So true. You know, and I, I really think that when it comes to compliance, I mean, so, you know, in my world as an HR consultant, I really personally have 2 goals when we begin working with an organization. The first one is that I'm going to become the kind of HR that people are not going to run away from. And the second one is that we're going to be trusted advisors so that we can empower them with complex people issues.
Gabriela Norton:Right? We are gonna bring them the information. We're gonna go and do the legwork so that when we come to them, they can really concentrate on the areas that they should be concentrating, and we can bring them the expertise so that they can make great decisions when it comes to these, you know, very sensitive compliance areas. But to your point, you know, we often see that they have the information, and at times, they still want to go in a path that we know is going to be risky. So, you know, we we talk about, you know, this particular area is a little bit higher risk than this other, you know, area.
Gabriela Norton:And at the end of the day, I think that a good HR partner, you know, of course, should always be there to empower, to educate, to also redirect because more than likely, if that decision maker is making the decision to go in a way that is going to bring liability, more than likely, they're going to also be responsible for making sure that that liability is minimized, you know, to the best of their abilities. Right? But more importantly, perhaps to then develop a systematic approach that moving forward, that particular approach will be different. Right? That their voice will can be elevated.
Gabriela Norton:And and, you know, I I hope that the decision makers also have the mindset to say, you're right. You know, HR, warned us that that this may be the case. So maybe the next time, I will have more trust, right, in my HR team, ultimately, to find that middle ground, to to be able to run the business with as little liability as possible while empowering everyone around.
Mike Coffey:Yeah. And so we're right up on our half hour here. So let me ask you, describe for me who wins this argument. Is it HR is HR here to serve the company, or is HR here to serve the employees? How do you balance that?
Gabriela Norton:I wholeheartedly believe that the HR position needs to be that is both. That the answer is yes for both. It is not an and or. It's an and I'm sorry. It's not an, a decision of, do I, you know, defend the employees or the company is a position of I'm here to empower and defend both the employees and the company.
Gabriela Norton:And it has to be a balanced approach, a healthy approach, an educated approach on how to go about that.
Mike Coffey:So Yeah. And that that's because they're both well served by that approach. Right? The employees are well served by having a job at a company or a nonprofit that's executing on its mission and the company or the organization is well served by having employees who are committed to the organization and, and trust have a light high level of trust engagement in in in their employment.
Gabriela Norton:That's right. You know, it's like any other relationship. It is about a give and take. And I can, you know, say from even personal experience that whenever I'm in a relationship where there is too much taking, I grow this rental. Right?
Gabriela Norton:And so I made the decision to be in balanced relationships where the giving and the receiving, it's, it it feels that it's a 100% and a 100%. Right? It's not out of balance. So it's very much the same thing here. And us as HR professionals, We have the responsibility and certainly the privilege to make influencing decisions in a way that feels that that balance is not compromised.
Mike Coffey:That's perfect. What a great way to end. That's all the time we have. Thank you for joining me Gabriela.
Gabriela Norton:What a pleasure to be with you, Mike. Thank you so much for inviting me. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Mike Coffey:And thank you for listening. You can comment on this episode or search our previous episodes at goodmorninghrdot com or on Facebook, Instagram, or YouTube. And don't forget to follow us wherever you get your podcast. Rob Upchurch is our technical producer, and you can reach him at robmakespods.com. And thank you to Imperative's marketing coordinator, Mary Anne Hernandez, who keeps the trains running on time.
Mike Coffey:And I'm Mike Coffey. As always, please don't hesitate to reach out if I can be of service to you personally or professionally. I'll see you next week, and until then, be well, do good, and keep your chin up.