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In this episode, “The Holi-Daze Survival Guide “ we dive into a timely and listener-suggested topic: the unique stressors that come with the holiday season. While this time of year can bring joy and togetherness, it also comes with its fair share of challenges. We tackle everything from implementing healthy boundaries with family members to creating new traditions without hurting anyone’s feelings. We also discuss navigating tricky family dynamics, finding ways to entertain the kids while you're still working, and setting limits on time and energy to stay mentally healthy through it all.
Creators & Guests
Host
What is The Shrink Down?
Four lifelong friends, all clinical psychologists, unpack the latest in current events, pop culture and celebrity news through the lens of psychology.
Vanessa (00:00.994)
Welcome to The Shrinkdown. Today we're diving into a timely and listener suggested topic, the holiday season. A time of joy, getting together with friends and family, but also one that can bring a lot of stressors. We're going to tackle everything from implementing healthy boundaries with family members to creating new traditions without hurting anyone's feelings. We'll also discuss navigating tricky dynamics with toxic relatives, finding ways to entertain the kids while you're still working, and setting limits on time and energy to stay mentally healthy through it all.
But before we get into today's topic, we're gonna do our four minute faves. Terry, do you wanna start us off today?
Teri (00:34.216)
Sure. So mine is a recent Netflix documentary, Martha, which is about Martha Stewart. I watched it over the weekend, I think. It's about two hours long, so I broke it into two viewings. And my husband watched it with me. We both really liked it. I wholeheartedly recommend it for anybody. It was a fun, easy watch.
Lauren (00:41.635)
Yes!
Vanessa (00:44.035)
you
Lauren (00:48.493)
Yeah.
Lauren (00:59.234)
Yeah.
Teri (01:03.136)
and she is a fascinating person. yes, so Lauren's gonna be with me on this. She is the original influencer. She is a hustler. She is a queen hustler. She has been a model, a stockbroker, a whatever she's been now, her own, she's Martha Stewart. Lifestyle.
Lauren (01:05.496)
Fascinating.
Vanessa (01:07.886)
Snoop Dogg in it?
Lauren (01:09.688)
I'm watching, I'm almost done with it, but yes, it is really good.
Lauren (01:17.388)
Yep. Yep.
Wilhelmina (01:17.751)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (01:19.149)
that say that.
Lauren (01:20.449)
Yeah.
Vanessa (01:30.008)
Lifestyle.
Lauren (01:30.368)
Yeah, her own entities. Yeah.
Teri (01:33.064)
I mean, she's always been in the background of our lives, right? Like she's always sort of been there and learning more about her and she is ballsy and no holds barred. She is just talks about her marriage of 27 years, her divorce. She really lets it fly and it just was really enjoyable. As a joke, I am not very skilled in certain areas of home making.
Lauren (01:35.82)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (01:35.917)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (01:36.824)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (01:55.031)
Yeah.
Lauren (02:00.928)
Hahaha
Wilhelmina (02:01.427)
Hahaha!
Teri (02:02.228)
And as a joke, when we first got married, my husband would call me Martha, in reference to Martha Stewart. So we actually got a real kick. We got a real kick out of watching it. But I think anyone of all ages, genders, I think anybody would like to watch it. Highly recommend. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Lauren (02:13.089)
I've got it.
Lauren (02:17.718)
It's just like really well done in terms of like a story. Yeah, they go through the whole prison, like all the legal stuff, multiple lives. my gosh. Yes. Yes. It's so cool. Yes. Yes.
Teri (02:25.716)
yes, that's what I mean. She's 19 lives. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (02:26.553)
Mmm.
Wilhelmina (02:30.849)
And she has continued to evolve, which I think is so cool. Yeah. Yes. That was brilliant. Brilliant.
Teri (02:34.344)
Yes.
Vanessa (02:34.766)
She's like still relevant. Like her friendship with Snoop Dogg, I think is hilarious. Was he in the documentary? Was he in the documentary? Was he in? He was, okay. I mean, you guys probably saw the Olympics, they were hanging out together and like their like conversation, like, I mean, she just is so good at keeping herself relevant in a very like age appropriate way, right? Like she's, I don't know, yeah.
Teri (02:40.954)
smart. Yes, yes. Yeah, he's in.
Lauren (02:48.898)
So.
Lauren (02:53.332)
One of the things I read was that one of her criticisms of the documentary once it came out was that they didn't use enough Snoop Dogg music. And she actually, because they do just a lot of background instrumental, as they're changing, whatever. Or she's walking through the garden or whatever. She wanted all Snoop Dogg music. And that was one of her big criticisms. So yeah.
Teri (02:53.715)
Yes.
Teri (03:03.109)
How funny.
Vanessa (03:05.218)
Yeah
Vanessa (03:14.052)
That's hilarious.
Teri (03:14.876)
That's funny.
Vanessa (03:17.956)
That's funny.
Teri (03:18.64)
The other interesting part is she was married for almost 30 years, right? And they had one daughter together. Her husband is still alive. Her ex-husband is still alive. So, you know, they're both in their 80s. And they so it's very interesting, too, that he is featured so prominently. And she speaks so openly about him and their marriage and their early relationship and then the divorce and infidelities, etc.
Lauren (03:22.807)
Yeah.
Lauren (03:33.793)
It's crazy.
Lauren (03:45.496)
They were incredibly young. Yeah, I didn't realize that.
Teri (03:47.592)
They were very young when they got married. were both in college. Yeah, very young and he's still alive. So I ended up down a Google rabbit hole because I think it's she's such she's such an interesting person. So very good to watch. Yes.
Wilhelmina (03:59.331)
love your Google rabbit holes. I love it. I always learn so much.
Lauren (03:59.522)
Yeah. Yeah.
Teri (04:05.79)
How about you, Willamina?
Wilhelmina (04:07.747)
Well, I at first was going to do the fun show I've been binging, which is Dr. Odyssey. Just highly recommend, it's just fun. But then I put on this sweater today, is my, uh-huh, mm-hmm. So I've been wearing this several times because this was part of my newly rental. And every time I wear it, I'm going to, my sweater.
Lauren (04:14.949)
yeah!
Lauren (04:22.651)
my God, that's adorable.
Vanessa (04:31.734)
Ah-hoo!
Teri (04:32.916)
Why don't you describe it?
Wilhelmina (04:37.309)
it is. So it's like a tan. I was like, I'm going. So it's just a light brown tan sweater. It's a nice weight. And then it has on the front a hedgehog. And it's adorable. And the hedgehog is like a little textured. And I have just had so much fun with it. So I know I mentioned newly in a couple episodes back when we talked about
Teri (04:37.449)
Yes.
Lauren (04:37.989)
How fresh, for those that don't have the visual.
Vanessa (04:38.148)
For anyone not watching us right now.
Vanessa (04:53.956)
It is very adorable.
Teri (04:54.964)
It's very cute.
Lauren (04:56.536)
It's very cute.
Wilhelmina (05:06.521)
fashion and things like that. I have been doing newly for about a year. So it is a clothing rental subscription and you pay, I think it's around $90 and you get to pick six items and for about a month. And I think you can actually return quicker if you want. So it's really just, you're paying this much per month and then you can kind of use it however you want it.
I've kind of just stuck to like a month at a time. So I'm getting like a month's worth of clothes. But the reason it's so good right now is I started it around the holidays because I always want some fresh outfits, some fun things to wear for holiday parties or outings, things like that, something to wear for Christmas Eve. And yet how many new holiday outfits do I want hanging in my closet? Not very many. So last year I just got, that's how I started it.
Lauren (05:57.645)
Okay.
Wilhelmina (06:05.729)
I loved it and then used it for the whole year. I used it when we went on our trip together to kind of get some things for our trip. And it's a way to find some new things, maybe try out a new style, maybe try out a style you wouldn't normally do, get some fun things that you're like, I don't know how many times I'm gonna wear this, but I'll wear it for a couple of times and that'll be fun. And then I also feel just from like kind of, we talked about the impact on the environment with the.
Lauren (06:27.565)
Right.
Wilhelmina (06:34.743)
clothes and all of that. It sort of feels like I'm buying, you know, this, I'm taking it for a little bit and then giving it on and we're all enjoying this. And it feels kind of like we get the boost of getting some new things, but we give it away and then we get some new things and our closets aren't getting cluttered. And so it has been.
Lauren (06:54.678)
Is it like an updated rent the runway? Do people still do that?
Wilhelmina (06:59.001)
So I think people still do that. Yeah. So run the runway. Yeah, I would say that it is. But this time you just get it for longer and you get like clothes you would wear every day.
Vanessa (07:00.74)
I think people still do right.
Lauren (07:02.017)
Okay.
Lauren (07:10.082)
Okay.
Vanessa (07:11.054)
Can you adjust how many pieces you rent at a time? Because you mentioned six. Do you know if that's adjustable?
Wilhelmina (07:16.057)
So you can do six is really the minimum. I mean, you wouldn't want to do less than six because you'd want to be getting your money's worth. I, if you want to add more, think it's $20 more per item with a max. There's like a max of like maybe nine items or something. There's a max to that. So you can't just be like, I'm going to rent 20 items. But then you, there's discounts and sometimes it's like, you get a free rent or free item.
Lauren (07:16.108)
Good question.
Vanessa (07:30.456)
So can add items if you want.
Vanessa (07:37.656)
Right.
Lauren (07:39.019)
You
Wilhelmina (07:45.685)
And here's the thing, if you like it, you can buy it at a discount. yeah, so it's like I've been like, should I buy this hedgehog sweater? I might, I don't know. But I will say though, if you start buying all of it, it kind of makes it like, well, now you're just shopping. But I definitely bought a couple things, not as much as I thought, because once you use it for the month, then you give it back and you get new things. So I will say I have a link that gets you, I think,
Vanessa (07:49.282)
Okay. Yeah. That's like went the right way.
Vanessa (07:57.943)
Yeah.
Lauren (08:08.952)
Yeah, that's a good point.
Wilhelmina (08:15.383)
dollars off your first rental. I'll make sure we put that in the link with my fave and try it out because it is really fun and you get to pick everything out.
Vanessa (08:21.706)
Instagram. Yeah.
Teri (08:26.516)
And I, I would say it's spelled N UULY because a friend recommended it to me a few months ago and I couldn't find it because I heard her say newly. No, and I had to text her so it's N UULY.com
Wilhelmina (08:30.501)
yeah. Yes.
Lauren (08:35.946)
Never.
Vanessa (08:36.644)
You didn't think that's you spelled it?
Wilhelmina (08:40.729)
You
Vanessa (08:44.462)
Do they also do accessories like purses and stuff like that or just clothes? Clothes. Okay. Cool.
Wilhelmina (08:47.479)
Nope, just clothes. They do outerwear, so you can do jackets. I love a new jacket, so I almost always in the winter and fall rent a jacket. And Terry, I know you had mentioned that it was overwhelming to you, and you were like, I went on and it was just too much. And it is, it's a ton. Yeah. So what I would say as a tip before I kind of rent, I think about one, what am I wanting this month?
Lauren (08:51.83)
Yeah.
Vanessa (08:52.334)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Teri (09:04.434)
I just want it picked out for me. I don't want to have to look at anything.
Lauren (09:06.872)
Alright.
Wilhelmina (09:15.925)
And so like I actually tracked up the last month and I was like, okay, I have a holiday party. I have a friend's 40th. And then I kind of had a vision of some of the things I wanted. Okay, I wanted a dress for this. I wanted a fun top for this. I wanted a sweater for work or I have these pair of pants. I want a new fall sweater for Thanksgiving. So like, I kind of think about that and then I search those items. So I'm not just like blindly searching. Yes, yes. So.
Lauren (09:39.628)
Yeah, so you filter it down, yeah.
Vanessa (09:40.26)
Like sifting through everything. Yeah, yeah, that's a good point. That's a good tip.
Teri (09:44.008)
Yeah, that's some good planning.
Wilhelmina (09:45.279)
screw like peruse Pinterest, you know, screw. don't like that. No, no, that's not screw it. One of everything. I don't know. So, yeah, peruse Pinterest, get some ideas. What are you liking and go from there? So highly, highly recommend. Lauren, what are you loving?
Lauren (09:49.592)
So screw it.
Lauren (10:03.064)
It's a great idea.
Lauren (10:07.672)
Okay, so we chatted a little bit before we came on here, full disclosure. So I knew Terry was doing Martha, which is originally what I was going to do, but it was okay because of sort of the Martha Renaissance, what have you. So I am one of those people, and we'll kind of get to this probably at some point, but I'm one of those people that itches to start pulling out my Christmas stuff as soon as Halloween is done.
And I didn't used to be that way, but COVID certainly shifted things for me. And like, just, have a lot of fun with it. So I had started the documentary as well. And then I was just at Marshall's last week and I happened to love like the Martha Stewart vibe and have for a really long time. I find some of the cooking a little bit overwhelming, but I love like looking like getting a magazine of hers every once in a while and like looking at some of her decor ideas and things like that. So I've sort of been following her for a while.
And so I was at Marshall's the other day. Okay, you guys, I can't even fit this in the thing. Look at this bell. Can you even see how cool? It's huge. It's like three feet. I know. It's like this. I know. Isn't it so fun? I know. So here's what I'll tell you. I will find a link for you, but the link, I had searched it beforehand because of course, once it's at like a Home Goods or whatever,
Wilhelmina (11:10.712)
my gosh, that is awesome. Terry, it's big.
Teri (11:13.073)
It's big!
Vanessa (11:16.196)
Yeah
Teri (11:17.168)
It's a big red, it's a big red Christmas bell with Holly on top.
Vanessa (11:23.129)
Yes.
Vanessa (11:31.032)
Right, it's hard to find.
Lauren (11:32.6)
Right. So it's on that Mercari website for $75. I got it for half of that. It's so fun. They had it in red and silver and gold, and it's Martha Stewart brand, of course. In Home Goods, Marshalls, TJ Maxx, they all have a ton of Martha Stewart stuff, typically, but then like especially this time of year. So super fun. It just kind of went with the Martha vibes that I'm feeling right now as I'm like starting to decorate and watch the documentary and things like that. So.
Wilhelmina (11:36.048)
yeah,
Wilhelmina (11:39.992)
Okay.
Wilhelmina (12:00.641)
Now where are you gonna put that? Like how are you gonna?
Lauren (12:02.466)
So it's next to the fireplace right now. So it's just kind of cool, right? Like, so it's like under the garland, but it's like huge. So it's like a little statement piece. We'll see. We'll see if it stays there. Yeah. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (12:04.845)
Nice, okay.
Wilhelmina (12:11.171)
So Lauren, you have always been really good with, yes, and I remember you do and you, I remember in graduate school, I spent a lot of time at your apartment because we were both kind of new to the city and we spent a lot of time hanging together. And I remember the holidays and going over to your apartment, we were hanging out for, I don't, just another,
Teri (12:11.614)
I like it.
Lauren (12:16.056)
I love a hosting moment.
Lauren (12:25.386)
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Lauren (12:37.42)
Something, yeah.
Wilhelmina (12:38.091)
something and you had wrapped your pillows in like and made them presents. Yes, and I was like, wow, this is this is so cute and so easy to do and you and from then on you've always done that like those kind of things and it's so it doesn't create such a homey feel and I've always loved your creativity around that. So I love I love the bell.
Lauren (12:42.804)
with bows.
Vanessa (12:47.391)
Hahaha!
Lauren (12:49.656)
Woo!
Lauren (12:59.393)
I love it. Yes.
Lauren (13:03.88)
Thanks. Yes, Martha inspired. Yes. Yes, exactly. So yeah, we'll find something. But what I would recommend is just go to one of your stores. It might feel a little bit early, but those things are gone in like five minutes. And they're just super fun and half the price of what you can find online. So highly recommend. Vanessa, what you got?
Vanessa (13:22.936)
So I also referencing our fashion discussion, and we were talking about, I think at one moment, how a lot of times styles kind of come back, but they're never quite the same. And I think I found something that actually is very quite the same, and it's kind of making it like a comeback. I'll say that there's more kind of options, I feel like. But I'm going to show you guys. But I just bought these Converse, and they're the platform ones, which
Wilhelmina (13:50.151)
yeah. Yep.
Lauren (13:50.784)
yeah.
Vanessa (13:52.908)
I had in high school and so they haven't really changed much. So I will say this is one of those things if you have them still in your closet, you can pull them out and they're still in style. But yes, I just bought these and I really love them. I needed a little bit of a platform because I got some pants that were like a little bit too long, but they're like sweat pant material. So I didn't want to like hem them. And I was like, I just need like a little, like an inch, like a little lift.
Teri (13:54.646)
Very cute.
Wilhelmina (13:55.863)
Yeah.
Lauren (13:56.566)
Mm-mm.
Wilhelmina (14:15.469)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (14:18.94)
Is that Converse brand or a different? Okay. Because I was seeing at Nordstrom's a lot of Converse style shoes, but they're different designers. Okay.
Vanessa (14:21.506)
Yeah, no, these are converse, stars. no, this is, yeah.
Wilhelmina (14:21.539)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Vanessa (14:27.556)
Yes, no, are actual Converse. I got these at DSW actually for a really good price, but free people had them too. And I really like this color. So this is Ginger Snap. So I just bought them for a trip and I was like, my gosh, I haven't had Converse since high school. And I actually had a pair of platform Converse because I used to wear my Jankos that were really long and I needed like a little lift. So I used to wear them. But yeah, I've gotten so many compliments. In fact, I really, my daughter was like,
Lauren (14:27.65)
Yeah.
Lauren (14:33.666)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (14:36.259)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (14:37.096)
That's what I meant, yeah.
Teri (14:47.742)
So did I.
Lauren (14:51.928)
you
Vanessa (14:57.316)
Mom, those are so cute. Do they have those in kids? And they actually do. So she now wants a pair. So she wants a pair. So yeah, so I got those from DSW. They were super good price, but they have them. Free People has them. Nordstrom has them. Yeah, but that color, Ginger Snap, is a really good one. So I was like, OK, here's one style that's like back in. And there's so many different like cute styles now.
Wilhelmina (15:00.619)
I do.
Lauren (15:02.24)
Of course.
Wilhelmina (15:09.079)
Nordstrom's.
Lauren (15:13.912)
Good for the season.
Vanessa (15:20.324)
And it's funny because that was actually one of Everly's like first sneakers that I got her when she was started walking where the Converse they have the little Velcro ones for the kids And Mark has a couple of pairs So I feel like that's one of those good ones that they're gonna they're gonna be around forever and they don't change a whole lot But yeah, that's my that's my fave for today my platform all-star Converse
Wilhelmina (15:39.395)
So Vanessa, that was Maddie's back to school shoe for this year. When she started middle school, she had an outfit and she wanted the high top though. So she got the platform high top, just plain white and she's been wearing it. Cause a lot of the girls her age for like like dances will wear a formal, yes. And then the socks, the high socks.
Vanessa (15:42.566)
really?
Lauren (15:43.126)
How cute.
Vanessa (15:47.33)
Yeah. High top. Yeah.
Lauren (15:57.429)
yes.
Vanessa (15:57.89)
Yeah, sinkers.
Wilhelmina (16:02.413)
and the high tops. And honestly, I think it's adorable. I love the look. So I totally agree. They're way back and they are fun.
Vanessa (16:02.628)
Yeah.
Vanessa (16:10.958)
Really cute, yeah. I did, in all fairness, I tried the high top and I was like, hmm, probably not. I was like, probably not. So I went with the low top, yes, there are high tops. But for me, I felt like the low tops were the better one. But yes, I've been loving them. So that's my fave. All right. Well, now that we've shared our holiday faves, or not our holiday faves, just our faves.
Let's get into today's topic. As I was thinking about today's topic, I thought about kind of my own personal stress, the things I've experienced during the holiday season. And the one that kind of immediately jumped out to my mind was something that I've talked about with this friend group, but I've also talked about with other friends. And that's, you know, how do you navigate being in different places with different family members at the same time? So this is something that came up with me.
Lauren (16:32.482)
Hmm.
Vanessa (17:00.388)
as a kid really when my parents got divorced. And obviously when you're a kid, your parents just tell you where to go. But at some point you become an adult, right? And you have to kind of decide where you're going. And then, you know, even if your parents aren't divorced, at some point if you do get married, then you're also now introducing like another family. So it's, you know, trying to make everyone happy being somewhere at the same time. Sometimes you have to say no to someone. And, you know, I luckily my family hasn't ever said.
you know, anything like negative to me or made me feel like you have to come sort of thing. But it's definitely like a pressure that I know that I put on myself. And I can remember when I used to live in Chicago and my parents were both living there, you know, I would feel like I spending my entire holiday in the car, like driving around to see everyone and trying to fit everyone and being like, hey, I gotta go, gotta go to the next house. And it just became like just so much. And
Lauren (17:45.151)
Yeah.
Vanessa (17:56.396)
when I moved out of state, had to then decide not just like, okay, I'm gonna go to everyone's house. And I had to decide like, which family do I, know, who do I go visit? Who do I get on an airplane to go visit? And it wasn't until I think like after COVID when everything kind of shut down and we had we experienced our first Christmas at home that my husband and I kind of just looked at each other and said, this is nice. This is really nice. So
Wilhelmina (18:15.203)
Thank you.
Lauren (18:19.469)
Right?
Vanessa (18:22.306)
we kind of came up with a plan of how we would navigate that, that felt good to us. And luckily, like our family has been so great, you know, and everyone, no one's ever made us feel bad, but I know I've talked to friends, you know, who've said like that their parents or whoever, you know, give them like a guilt trip. And so I think that that's, you know, one of the common stressors that you hear a lot about during the family season or the holiday season is how do you navigate?
you know, not disappointing someone. And sometimes, like I said, it's not even that the family members say anything. It's like your own personal, like, guilt feeling bad about not being where, you know, like having to say no to someone or not being able to be there. But I definitely feel like it was it was a good feeling when we kind of came to that resolution that like, OK, we're going to set this boundary for ourselves. We're going to do what we feel is best for us as a family and then let everybody know. And was nice. Everybody was supportive. So that's one of the things that I know that I have experienced with.
with a holiday stressor and how to kind of navigate that.
Lauren (19:20.92)
You know, I will say when, when Sam, my oldest was young, we used to go to, so to my parents and then my in-laws, we used to kind of switch back and forth, spending the night like Christmas morning, right? And I just remember, and I don't know if it was when he was, you know, his first Christmas or the second Christmas. I remember having a conversation with my husband and saying, as soon as he has memories,
Vanessa (19:36.942)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (19:48.182)
I want to be at home for Christmas morning. so similarly to what you said of like recognizing during COVID, like I just had this moment when he was little that it was like, as soon as he starts having memories, I want to be home Christmas morning. So whatever else might be able to vary, but that was something that was really important to my husband. And I, and like you said, Vanessa, everybody was very supportive of that. And, and I think to your point, yes, you, you do, you have that sort of,
Vanessa (19:49.528)
Yes, that's what we said. Yeah.
Lauren (20:16.79)
whether it's just feelings of guilt or even just like wistfulness of just like wanting it to be easier. Like I wish I could be in all of these places. But I always remind myself of something that we all tell our clients, which is like two things can be true. I can feel that way and it can still be the right decision to be at, for example, at home on Christmas morning. Right. So I was just like, remind two things can be true.
Wilhelmina (20:29.955)
Mm Yeah.
Teri (20:41.372)
The thing that I think about because I've been in similar scenarios, Vanessa, is, and especially as you get older, at what point do you get to enjoy a part of the day or the holiday? So it's like, my mother-in-law would like...
Lauren (20:53.292)
Yeah. Yeah.
Vanessa (20:53.985)
Right, yeah.
Wilhelmina (20:55.123)
Never. I'm just sorry.
Teri (21:01.748)
You're like, I'm so glad that everybody, I'm exactly where everybody wants me to be, which is not where I want to be. at what, yeah, exactly. So at what point do you look at your partner or think about your kids or all of the above and say, I would like to have a nice Christmas or I would like to have a nice Christmas Eve and not be planned spending the whole time, you know, the few days off that you have not working with your kids, not in school.
Lauren (21:07.551)
Mm-mm.
Lauren (21:21.09)
Right.
Teri (21:30.952)
to spend that time in a way that you want to be spending it. And maybe that does align with the family you feel obligated to go see, and maybe it doesn't. And how do you carve out time for all of the above? If it's switching off years, if it's going to part of one, if it is saying no, that's just not gonna work. I have a close friend who had said, once I realized that we were going to my husband's aunt's sister's house,
Lauren (21:39.383)
Right.
Vanessa (21:59.213)
you
Wilhelmina (21:59.229)
Thank
Teri (21:59.58)
And that was the tradition. She said, wait a minute, what are we doing? Is this, I know that this has been the tradition, but is this really how we want our family to be spending Christmas Eve? This doesn't work for us anymore. And the thing about traditions is traditions never last forever and ever. They last for a finite period of time. Older people sometimes have a harder time, I think, understanding that maybe at times. But traditions typically, sometimes they go five years, maybe they go 10 years, maybe they go
Lauren (22:10.871)
Right.
Wilhelmina (22:16.258)
No.
Vanessa (22:16.92)
Right. Yeah.
Teri (22:29.364)
30 years sometimes, but at some point things will shift and whether that's you or other family members, but holidays require so much flexibility.
Wilhelmina (22:40.897)
And I think it also requires when you think about what you want as a family and then having the conversation, kind of like what we talked about with friendships, which means that they may not welcome this news with open arms. They not be like, of course, we just want what's best for you. They might be mad. They might be sad. They might be annoyed. But that doesn't mean it's still not the right thing to do for you and your family.
Lauren (22:51.256)
Yeah.
Vanessa (22:56.088)
That's right.
Vanessa (23:01.666)
Yes.
Lauren (23:02.978)
Right. Right.
Vanessa (23:05.944)
That's not right. Yeah. Yeah. Like if you look at the family theory systems, like families like homeostasis, like they like things to be because then you know, you know what your role is, you know how things work. But the problem is when your family grows and changed, it's like your immediate family, then that can't stay the same. And that can be hard for the people who like, you know, like parents, for example, right? Like they are expecting you to be
Wilhelmina (23:12.483)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Lauren (23:13.504)
Yeah, of course.
Lauren (23:21.912)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (23:29.732)
the same role, but you're not anymore because now you might be a wife or you might be a mother, you know, and so it changes. And that change can be really hard. But like you said, communication is really important there. And even if they don't like what you have to say, like it's important for you to say it and to feel good about that. And other people might like that hustle bustle. Like I can think of friends who are like, I like to be with everyone and everywhere. And it's like, that's great. And so there's nothing wrong with that. It's just if that's not working for you personally, that's OK.
Lauren (23:52.908)
I do, yeah.
Wilhelmina (23:57.337)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (23:58.978)
You set your boundary, you let everybody know, and that's how it works.
Lauren (24:02.978)
And I think to your point, Vanessa, you can have both in a way if you kind of figure out what's important about the tradition, right? So my family, grew up going to my grandfather's house for Christmas Eve. And so my grandfather had four children and all of his children, their spouses and the grandkids all went to his house for Christmas Eve.
Vanessa (24:13.432)
Yes.
Wilhelmina (24:13.655)
Yes, yes.
Vanessa (24:22.222)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (24:32.012)
That was back when we were all living within a couple miles of each other. So, but that was a tradition for a really, really, really long time. It shifted over to my uncle's house when my grandfather no longer could host and prior to him passing away. like, so it shifted at that point. And I remember this feeling of like, it's not the same anymore. But actually, now that I'm an adult, so it's shifted from my uncle's house to now I am the beneficiary of being able to host it.
Vanessa (24:51.342)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (25:01.248)
It's no longer on Christmas Eve. So it's not only shifted from my grandfather's house, it's shifted homes, but it's also shifted dates because my family, I really give credit to the sort of the matriarchs of the family, I should say, and the patriarchs, all the aunts and uncles decided it was something that was important for them to still happen, getting together at the holidays. But when it happened, didn't have to be the 24th of December. And I'm so grateful that I have those
Wilhelmina (25:03.952)
Vanessa (25:25.422)
Yes. Yes.
Lauren (25:30.562)
flexible thinking family members because how many years later I'm trying to think my cousin, my oldest cousin, I mean, it's gotta be close to 50 years of a tradition that's shifted and changed, but it's still like, what was the goal? The goal was everybody getting together. So it's not the 25th or the 24th, but we still get the experience. And then as a result, you still kind of, you know, what you guys were saying, you kind of get what you want out of the holiday.
Wilhelmina (26:00.557)
Yeah, you pull the things, you pull it, you change, but you pull the things you want, but it is always gonna evolve. It just is. Or it'll die, yes, that's true.
Lauren (26:03.254)
Yeah. Yeah!
Vanessa (26:08.078)
Right. And change. Yeah.
Lauren (26:08.47)
Yeah, or it'll die. So you can decide as a family that also.
Vanessa (26:14.112)
Right.
Teri (26:15.188)
All right.
Wilhelmina (26:16.154)
That is an evolution. It's just no longer. We are not doing this any longer.
Lauren (26:17.636)
Right? Right. If they can't be flexible, there is a consequence to that.
Vanessa (26:17.986)
you
Wilhelmina (26:24.427)
Hahaha!
Vanessa (26:25.848)
What are some other things, other stressors that you guys have thought about, you've heard from other people, you've experienced yourselves during the holidays?
Wilhelmina (26:33.271)
You know, I think for me, one of the big things that comes up is the word is like, kin keeping. So it's the emotional and physical tasks that are often carried by the mother. This is absolutely invisible labor. And they are the people who are sending out the holiday cards. They're getting the holiday cards ready. They're finding the addresses.
doing all of that. They are getting the Christmas list together. They are doing the shopping. They are doing the wrapping. They are doing all of that. And I know I realized this for myself. Honestly, several years ago, I didn't have a word for it, but I was like, wait a minute. I'm an only child. And I really just have to buy for like my mom and like my dad. you know, but it was kind of a small list. And all of a sudden when I married my husband,
I was like, and then we did it together early on, but then all of a sudden he kind of fell away. And I was like, wait a minute, why am I buying for everyone? And if I don't do it, it won't get done. And I was like, something needs to change with that. And so I actually said to my husband this year, said, I don't want you to help with this. I actually want to sit down and think about everything that needs to get done. And then we divide the tasks up. This isn't, I come up with all of it that needs to get done. And then I have you.
Vanessa (28:01.218)
and you execute, right?
Wilhelmina (28:01.229)
Help me? Yeah, I want us to do it together. What gifts are you going to buy? What addresses are you going to find? Like, we are going to do this together. This is not all on me. And I hear that from, I mean, I know you guys have talked about it, and I hear about that from everyone, whether they have a name for it or not. They'll just talk about it like, well, that's the assumption. I'm just, no, my husband doesn't do that.
Lauren (28:02.637)
Yeah.
Lauren (28:28.12)
Do know what my husband and I started doing, which has been incredibly helpful? exactly what you're saying, sit down, we actually do a day date and we go do it. But then also we get like lunch and a cocktail, which just makes it so much more pleasant. Yeah. And then it's part of our holiday. It's like actually something that we give to ourselves. But to your point, Wilhelmina, it can be incredibly stressful.
Wilhelmina (28:36.921)
I love that.
Teri (28:41.3)
That's what we, we do the same thing. Yes. Yes.
Wilhelmina (28:41.517)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (28:48.483)
Yeah, that's nice.
Lauren (28:57.032)
if you're gift buying for somebody that you don't know as well as your husband knows, right? Like, why in the world are we doing that? Like, this person can actually be very helpful if he actually attends the gift buying. And I don't think necessarily they're always unwilling. I think it's, to your point, invisible labor. We just naturally take it on a lot of the times. And then it's like, wait, what are we doing? Like, let's make this something that we do together.
Vanessa (29:19.748)
Yeah, we've always with Mark and I, Mark and I have always, he's always done his family and I do my family. Like we've always just done that. I've never for some reason taken that on, but other things. Like you mentioned the photo, the, you know, the cards like, okay, but then I was actually thinking a step back, like remembering to go do your family photos, outfits, all that. Yes. Yeah. I was like, actually that was 10 steps later.
Teri (29:20.296)
I'm a big fan of the Day-Date.
Lauren (29:22.213)
Me too, it's my favorite.
Teri (29:24.414)
shopping.
Lauren (29:36.376)
scheduling the photo, right?
Wilhelmina (29:40.457)
What? Getting the outfits, getting the... Yes!
Vanessa (29:48.676)
And then if people are hosting, like we don't host during the holidays, not at this point, but like if you're hosting, Like thinking of like what you're gonna serve, cleaning the house, all that thing. That's a lot of things that you're doing over the holidays. And it's not just Christmas, it's Thanksgiving or whatever holidays you celebrate. But yeah, there's a lot of, I think there's a lot more that gets added to your plate during the holidays, like the card, like the presents, like the hosting or even going somewhere, right?
Lauren (30:03.625)
Yeah.
Vanessa (30:18.146)
Where are we going? A lot of times I know my husband's guilty of being like, so where are we going? What are we doing? It's on the family calendar, right? So there's a lot, think a lot more gets added to our plate during the holidays. And yeah, having good communication with your partner, being able to say, here's the things that I, know, let's see what we need to do. And here's what, you know, what are you going to do? What am I going to do? Sort of things. So you're not feeling overwhelmed by all of the tasks that have to happen during that already very busy season.
Lauren (30:24.141)
Right.
Wilhelmina (30:48.033)
And what comes up a lot when I discuss this with my patients, whether it's the holiday stuff or just invisible labor in general, is this, well, he's like not going to do it. And so even if I put it on his plate, he's not going to do it. And I'll be honest, Lori won't do it the right way. Yes. That's different. That is different. And I said, and that's kind of what we talk about.
Lauren (30:55.288)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (31:05.19)
or he won't do it the right way.
Vanessa (31:07.69)
That's different though. That's different.
Teri (31:09.01)
And that is different. That's a different issue.
Lauren (31:10.284)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (31:16.441)
I mean, this year I put something on my husband's plate and I said, hey, you're in charge of this. Like, this is you, you're in charge of this. And guess what? It did not get done. And I definitely felt the guilt of like from that person because it's always something I did. And yet I was like, this was not my, this was not my, and I just had to be sitting with that. So you have to be one, it might be that the thing does not get done.
Vanessa (31:35.844)
All right.
Lauren (31:38.924)
Right.
Wilhelmina (31:44.585)
and you can decide then what to do with that. So don't assume it's not going to get done because it might and then they might and that's different. But if it doesn't get done, then you have a different conversation because then you have, I've given you this task and now you're not doing, now you're not being a reliable partner. That's a different conversation that I don't think he'll do it or I should say she too. And then the other one is they're not going to do it the same way I would. And I was like, well, then do you want help?
or do you want it done exactly the way you would do it? If you actually want to be like doing this and having this help, and I shouldn't say help, it's just like your partner, then it's gonna get done a little bit differently, but it's gonna feel a lot better. But if it has to be exactly the way you want it and the table needs to look exactly like this and the present needs to be wrapped exactly like this, well, then you're right, you are gonna do it all and you're doing it all.
Vanessa (32:13.124)
Right. Mm-hmm.
Lauren (32:14.157)
Right.
Lauren (32:33.912)
And you're doing it. Have you guys seen that? Have you seen that meme or whatever, the graphic that's going around that's like, want my children to make good choices and be independent, but also the ornament does not go there. Like, it's like, it's a woman taking it off the tree. I'm like, I'm guilty, right?
Vanessa (32:34.744)
You better do it yourself.
Teri (32:35.828)
The phrase
Wilhelmina (32:48.671)
Yes!
Teri (32:48.948)
Yes,
Vanessa (32:49.332)
No.
Teri (32:55.11)
It reminds me of the phrase, done is better than perfect. Done is better than perfect. it also makes me, it's a similar, that parallels a similar conversation I have to parents I work with who cannot let their kids experience natural consequences of not being organized or turning homework in on time or not studying. Oftentimes,
Lauren (32:58.966)
Yes, yes. Yeah.
Vanessa (32:59.513)
Right.
Lauren (33:13.944)
He has.
Vanessa (33:14.023)
yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (33:17.814)
or taking a jacket to school. Natural consequence.
Vanessa (33:20.312)
or eating healthy choices.
Teri (33:22.482)
Right. And you have to drop the rope sometimes is the metaphor I'll use. well, if I don't check, if I don't make sure their homework's in their backpack, they might not turn their homework in. Right. So why don't natural consequences are the most impactful consequences? why don't a hundred percent? So it's the similar parallel where it's like, well, what if my husband doesn't do that? What if my kid's homework doesn't get turned in? Fill in the blank.
Lauren (33:26.924)
Yeah. Yeah. Yep.
Lauren (33:36.054)
Right.
Lauren (33:40.61)
Better now than when they're in college. Yeah.
Teri (33:52.552)
Those are all natural consequences. Sometimes you need to let those things organically unfold and see what happens. And there's a lot of value in that. Yes, yes, exactly.
Wilhelmina (33:58.019)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Lauren (33:59.788)
Right, because to Wilhelmina's point, then it's a different conversation then. Right. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (34:04.429)
Yeah, yeah. You're not talking about this hypothetically. don't think you'll do it. You're talking about you're actually not doing it. And that's a different conversation.
Lauren (34:10.808)
Yeah. Yeah.
Teri (34:11.282)
Right. Let your kid actually not have their homework turned in. Let them actually not study. Let them not bring a jacket. Let them forget to pack their snack.
Wilhelmina (34:18.969)
Don't constantly go online and check their grades and their homework and micromanage. my gosh, you haven't turned in assignment B3. What's up with that? Maybe we just not.
Lauren (34:18.989)
Right?
Teri (34:23.796)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (34:31.902)
That's exactly what I'm talking about. Yes. And it's hard, and it's hard because you go from an incredible amount of oversight as a parent to slowly dialing it down and to get from point A where you're wiping your kids butt to point Z, which is them living fully independently out of your household, every just being fully independent.
Lauren (34:48.915)
Right?
Wilhelmina (34:52.557)
launching.
Teri (34:58.056)
there's a lot that needs to happen in between, but it's a dimmer. It's not an on and off switch. And you can't just all of a sudden, I have a lot of parents I work with who will go, my kid's 12. So now X, Y, and Z is gonna start happening. Well, wait a minute. Yeah, let's adjust that. And that, mean, for part of me, when I think of the holidays, it sort of relates to all of this is getting all the things done you need to get done.
Wilhelmina (35:02.574)
Yes.
Lauren (35:09.875)
right. All or nothing. Right. Right. Right.
Wilhelmina (35:12.211)
It's a It's a dial.
Lauren (35:16.952)
Yeah.
Lauren (35:20.418)
just gonna say.
Teri (35:25.428)
which for many people includes still having to work while your kids are home on break. So all of us are self-employed and as we know, you get time off, but you're never really off, right? So in, think.
Wilhelmina (35:28.203)
Mm-hmm. Yes.
Lauren (35:29.528)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (35:37.028)
All right. But then you also get labeled as the flexible parent. You're the flexible parent.
Lauren (35:37.3)
Hahaha
Wilhelmina (35:41.333)
Mm-hmm. yeah. So flexible.
Teri (35:41.884)
yes, because we have flexible schedules. And once your kids reach school age, you typically don't have a daycare set up. You may or may not have a regular nanny. You probably have the usual babysitter list that you use, but they're off if you think even including the weekends, they're off for two full weeks, which, you know.
Lauren (35:46.104)
Thank
Wilhelmina (35:48.277)
It's so fun.
Lauren (35:55.756)
Right.
Teri (36:07.056)
Ideally, you can take some of that time off, maybe not all of it, but even if you're off, you're still having to respond to emails, do phone calls for most lines of work if you're working from home, depending on what you do for a living. And how much of that time do you dedicate? Do you get your kids spoken for? Do you have a babysitter, send them to camp, spend money on camps? I just signed my kids up for a day before Thanksgiving camp because we're hosting Thanksgiving. And so I'm like, having them out of the house from nine to three,
Lauren (36:23.915)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (36:27.449)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (36:31.949)
Right?
They need to be out of the house.
Teri (36:36.222)
They need to be out of the house because they're going to be off before that anyways, because they're off for that entire week. And so how do you
Wilhelmina (36:40.685)
That entire week, when did this start? The entire week of Thanksgiving, when did this start? We would get half a day, we would have half a day of school on Wednesday, then Thursday off. And I was like, what is this whole week? The first time it happened, about shat my pants. I was like, I had not looked and I was like, wait, whole week, I literally about died.
Vanessa (36:43.33)
Yeah, right. We used to get one day, Friday.
Teri (36:46.515)
I know.
Teri (36:53.844)
I
Vanessa (36:55.246)
Hahaha!
Lauren (36:55.414)
No!
Teri (37:03.662)
It is a lot. It is a lot of time off. Now ask somebody who has worked in a school, his schools previously and worked with classrooms of multiple children. Half of me really appreciates that and understands how they, everybody needs this time off this time of year. but the parent in me is like, okay, what does my work schedule look like for that week? What are, what am I going to do with my kids? My kids are seven and nine. They are.
Lauren (37:17.581)
Right.
Lauren (37:27.714)
Bye.
Teri (37:32.912)
old enough to occupy themselves and young enough to not be left alone by themselves for hours at a time. And it's, and obviously there's the sibling fighting every three to five minutes that occurs. And we want to limit their screen time and exactly. And so what do you do with them? And so I've often found myself circling back to COVID strategies, COVID times.
Lauren (37:38.477)
Right.
Lauren (37:44.418)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (37:44.419)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (37:45.262)
And we want to limit their screen time, right? Because we don't want them sitting in front of screens. Right?
Lauren (37:47.735)
What?
Lauren (37:58.168)
those are fun.
Wilhelmina (37:58.401)
Okay.
Vanessa (38:00.196)
Right.
Teri (38:00.318)
and my kids were even little or none. They were two and four when COVID started and our daycare came to an abrupt halt. we, husband and I both had to work from home with no childcare for several months straight. And looking back, I don't even have memories of it because we just, I came, well, just probably good and bad.
Vanessa (38:15.65)
You blocked it out, have PTSD!
Lauren (38:16.012)
blocked it out.
Wilhelmina (38:16.473)
That's what we call drama!
Teri (38:20.1)
I have no, I don't. We kicked off COVID with my, within the first couple of weeks of my Tommy, my younger son, breaking his leg and having eye surgery. So we started off COVID with just, was funny with a bang. But I remember coming up with a daily visual schedule for the kids. So even when they couldn't read, I would draw pictures and print out and I spent all this time on it. And I still do that and will plan to do that this year.
Lauren (38:21.28)
No idea what I did during that time.
Lauren (38:31.125)
my god.
Wilhelmina (38:31.159)
Remember that, yes!
Lauren (38:34.498)
What's up, babe?
Lauren (38:40.706)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (38:49.684)
where we have a whiteboard in our kitchen and I will say, here's the rough schedule for the day. And I usually cut it in half. And for the left side, this is roughly what the plan is. You're gonna be going to this basketball thing, then you'll be home. Here are the times that dad and I are absolutely not available. That will be when you're probably gonna be on a screen. Here we have a babysitter lined up for two or three hours because those are meetings that we can't be interrupted. And then on the other side, I'll have the have to to do's, like I need you to try to clean your room.
Wilhelmina (38:49.699)
Mmm, I like that.
Lauren (39:05.313)
Yep. Yep.
Vanessa (39:07.332)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Lauren (39:16.696)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Wilhelmina (39:16.793)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (39:18.782)
brush your teeth, whatever. But then I also hand over the dry erase marker to them and I'm like, okay, what else are you adding to this? And I let them add whatever, yeah, weirdo. And sometimes it's really cute and sometimes, you know, it's laughable. Take me to Target and buy me whatever I want. I'm like, yeah.
Wilhelmina (39:25.357)
Yes.
Lauren (39:25.472)
Yeah, what do you want to do? Yep.
Vanessa (39:25.646)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Lauren (39:30.711)
Yeah!
Wilhelmina (39:33.753)
I'd like to go to Dave and Buster's. no, we're not! No!
Lauren (39:34.528)
Right.
Vanessa (39:34.648)
Yeah.
Lauren (39:40.248)
Right? That's what we did during the summer, because during the summer is very similar with school-age kiddos. There's some days you're going to have really good structured activities happening, and then some days where both parents are on a Zoom call for an hour, and that's going to be screen time. But having that visual schedule, think, is a great idea, Terry, because it not only helps them, but it helps you to figure out the priorities as well as the sort of organization of the day.
Teri (39:40.35)
Yes, no, but yes.
Teri (39:49.331)
Yes.
Teri (40:03.454)
Yes.
It's for me too.
Vanessa (40:08.036)
One of the things that we had Ev do on days where we're like, she's home and we're not, we have her come up with things that she wants to, like, will do. So she'll be like, Barbies, drawing. And then she puts them in little pieces of paper and she puts them in like a little bag. And she then goes in there and surprises herself by picking the activity. So she's coming up with the activities and then she's picking them out of the, she'll put in a bag or like a hat, whatever she decides that day. And she has really enjoyed that.
Lauren (40:25.624)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (40:28.099)
That's so cute.
Vanessa (40:36.644)
you know, and I think another important thing where like, obviously like it's important to have some structure for the day. It's also really important for them to be bored and figured it out part of the day, right? Like, like there's times where, you know, you know, I have, I have an only child so she doesn't have a built in playmate. And so there's plenty of times where I'm like, you're going to have to go and find something to do. Right. So, you know, so like sometimes that's just part of it is, you know,
Wilhelmina (40:44.951)
Yes. Yes.
Lauren (40:45.184)
Yeah, yeah.
Teri (40:45.428)
100. Reach.
Vanessa (41:01.124)
scheduling or knowing that you're going to have this downtime where they just need to figure it out. And that's OK. That's when they use their imagination and that's when they they're creative. That's when, you know, like, I really will come up with some of the coolest things. She's like, Mom, look at this thing I made, you know, and in those moments. So while it's very important, I think, to have like, you know, like she needs to have her 15 minutes where she's reading a day and all these things, I think it's also important to give them time to just be bored and figure it out on their own. Like, figure it out. Like that's what we all did.
Lauren (41:25.973)
Absolutely.
Teri (41:28.54)
I think that is such a critical point, to the point where my kids have different personalities, but my older son could play by himself, entertain himself now. I mean, he's nine and a half, draw, make comics, build Legos, whatever. He could do it for hours by himself. And his younger brother, my younger son, is used to just having this playmate two years older than him.
Lauren (41:29.079)
Yep.
Wilhelmina (41:46.061)
Yeah. So could Baddie. Ours. Ours.
Teri (41:55.206)
And he's got probably 30 minutes of independent play in him, give or take. And that's because he, right, it's developmentally appropriate, but he's very quick to go, where's Danny? Where's, what's he doing? What's going on over here? can we, I'm about done being by myself now. Cause I've never been by myself.
Vanessa (41:58.806)
You
Lauren (41:59.01)
Yep. Yep.
Vanessa (42:01.826)
developmentally, right? Like age, like, right? So like, do so. Yeah. Yes. Yeah.
Lauren (42:09.642)
All right. Right.
Vanessa (42:14.966)
I'm
Lauren (42:15.232)
Right. And those are the Pope the Bear moments. So I will say a caveat. I love the idea of being bored and being creative. As parents that have multiple kids, you do have to strategically decide when that's going to be so that they can be doing those things and you can have an ear and you're not focused in on like a Zoom call or something like that, just in case they choose something that's not super like
Wilhelmina (42:19.585)
yes.
Teri (42:19.745)
Vanessa (42:41.917)
yeah, yeah, that's not the time for that.
Lauren (42:42.808)
My kids, we did a Be Bored and Be Creative not too long ago, and they love creating little miniature golf like putt courses in the basement. But I could tell like I was there was a lot of noise they were moving my free weights to like putt under them.
Vanessa (42:58.036)
yeah.
Lauren (42:59.766)
Great idea, but like they can't do some of the heavier weights. I was like, okay, let me help you with this before I go and do the thing that I was about to do. Anyway, but no, I love that idea of having the time for them to be bored and that's okay. Bored is not a bad word. Somehow we've made it in, or I should say kids have made it into a bad word. It's not, it's a good thing.
Wilhelmina (43:16.855)
No.
Vanessa (43:20.996)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (43:21.645)
Well, I think parents, I was just gonna say, I think parents don't let it play out. So they think, my kid, my kid just can't do that. They just, and I'm like, okay, maybe they have trouble in the first five minutes, maybe even the first 10 minutes. But then all of a sudden you hear silence and I go up and I open Griffin's door and he's building some sort of Lego thing. And yet, yeah, sometimes those first...
Teri (43:22.526)
My, my go to, go ahead.
Lauren (43:29.622)
Yeah, that's true.
Lauren (43:44.536)
figured it out.
Wilhelmina (43:49.869)
little bit, it's a little rough, it's a little clunky. But one, if you practice it, if you do it regularly, they'll get used to that. I mean, when Griffin was younger, we would have quiet time when he dropped his nap. And it would be just him, just him in his room playing. And he got used to it. So it's sort of practicing it. It's kind of knowing it's going to be a little clunky at first, but if you let it play out, it's almost always going to be okay.
Vanessa (43:54.03)
Yes.
Lauren (43:55.2)
Yeah, yeah, that's true.
Teri (43:55.667)
Hmm?
Teri (44:00.659)
Yes.
Lauren (44:00.766)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Lauren (44:07.053)
Yeah.
Lauren (44:14.584)
That's a great idea.
Wilhelmina (44:17.933)
But if you don't ever practice it and you don't let it play out, then yeah, you're going to think my kid can't do it.
Vanessa (44:20.12)
Right.
Teri (44:24.072)
Something I would add to that, and that is so true, is that you need to be patient and let that play out, is if your kid comes to you complaining, I'm bored, I'm bored, one of my favorite phrases to reply to them is, good thing you're really creative. I can't wait to see what you came up with. Yeah, to the point where now when my kids, they know what's gonna come out of my mouth. So they'll look towards me and they're just like, forget it. I know what she's gonna say. Like, it's not even worth complaining. Yep.
Lauren (44:28.461)
Yeah.
Lauren (44:38.21)
Yeah, you can figure this out.
Vanessa (44:44.308)
See? See they learn.
Lauren (44:44.406)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (44:44.877)
Hahaha!
Lauren (44:47.826)
Learning.
Teri (44:54.928)
Exactly.
Wilhelmina (44:57.443)
You know, I think another thing that this is kind of changing of topics, but I know this is something that I have talked about with friends and family and some of my other patients have brought it up just in the last week, is a little bit of the concern about the Thanksgiving table and conversations that maybe are different, you know, political views that are different.
Vanessa (45:25.902)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (45:26.701)
Because right now, of course, in our country, seems very like, it's not just sort of like, we just have different opinions. It feels very divisive. So sometimes people can have family members where you don't agree on things. And that can get very heated. And that can get very volatile very quickly. And so we have talked a lot about setting boundaries with conversations, setting boundaries around the table. And
kind of saying like, hey, you we're not going to talk politics or we're not going to talk about this because and that's okay to do. That's okay to do to set some boundaries. The other thing is go in with expectations that are realistic. If your family member is always doing this thing that pushes your buttons, guess what they're going to do with this year too. And if you, I mean,
Vanessa (46:14.34)
Right. The likelihood is high.
Wilhelmina (46:17.957)
I'd like to think you go in, this is the year that it's going to be magical. Everyone's going to get along. But the in-laws aren't going to. No, it's going to be most likely like every other one. keep every other one. So keep your expectations in check and really think, OK, how can I be OK with how this is going to play out? Because I kind of know how it's going to play out.
Teri (46:32.452)
Every. Predictable.
Vanessa (46:33.634)
Hahaha!
Right.
Wilhelmina (46:47.565)
So maybe I'm not gonna get mad when the same thing happens again. Maybe I'm not gonna get hurt by the comments. Maybe I'm just gonna know. And I can set some boundaries around what I know is gonna happen and set it up beforehand. And another thing is careful with the drinking because it's really hard to do that when you're chugging the wine all day. Believe me, mean, we all, okay, the Macy's parade is done. Let's crack that bottle open. I get it.
Vanessa (46:54.756)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (47:04.44)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (47:05.064)
Hahaha!
Wilhelmina (47:15.381)
And yet, by the time you sit down for dinner, you can't, your boundaries and all of the zen you've done, it's gone. And then you're left with a volatile table. that would.
Lauren (47:16.244)
and
Lauren (47:21.869)
Yeah.
Vanessa (47:27.748)
I also think it's important that if you are in these situations with your family, and it is incredibly challenging, and year after year it's the same thing, it's OK to set up the boundary and say, I'm not doing this. And that's hard. That's really hard to say, I'm not doing this, not because we talked earlier about having to be in five different places at the same time, but just deciding that you're not going to be part of something that isn't
Wilhelmina (47:40.11)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (47:55.159)
good for you kind of emotionally. And that is, I think, the toughest. It's easy to tell someone, sorry, we can't make this year because we got to whatever. But it's a very different situation when you're saying to yourself, this situation is too toxic for me to be in, and I need to my boundary. And I need to say I'm not going to be part of this because this isn't good for me mentally. So I think you can do both. I think that you can go in and set up the expectations and just know like,
Uncle Frank's gonna start that conversation and I'm just gonna tell him, like I'm just, my answer is gonna be, like I'm not talking politics today and I'm gonna walk away, right? Or you can say, there's nothing in this situation that I want to be a part of, right? And so I'm just gonna remove myself from the situation. So, start something different.
Wilhelmina (48:34.872)
Yes.
Wilhelmina (48:38.829)
Yeah, it's hard. It's hard because again, you have to have the difficult conversation potentially. They maybe won't receive it well, but you have to, if it's important to you and it's important to not get wrapped up into it, then you've kind of have to be okay with having the difficult conversation or pulling yourself out of the situation.
Vanessa (49:01.294)
Yeah. And thinking of like the stressors, like another one that I thought of is, you know, dealing with like loss of family during the holidays. And you all know, but I haven't mentioned this on the podcast, but my stepmom passed away. She was diagnosed with a glioblastoma, which is an aggressive brain tumor. And this is our second holiday season without her. And Christmas was her favorite.
Wilhelmina (49:09.241)
Hmm.
Vanessa (49:30.752)
I already told everyone, was like, I'm not going to make it through this without crying. But that's like, know, the holidays are really tough time, I think for some people, and we may not even know it. We don't know like what their background story is. And sometimes it's from like a loss of a family member and other things too. Like the holidays can just be really stressful or, you know, some people don't have family, right, to be with. And so I know for me, like, you know, Christmas in particular, like I can think of our last Christmas with her.
Lauren (49:33.131)
Yeah.
Lauren (49:40.92)
Of course not.
Lauren (49:50.136)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (49:58.66)
not even realizing it was going to be our last Christmas. And it's just, it's just a hard time of year, you know, for all of us. And I imagine that it'll get easier, but I don't know. But it's like, you're fine. And then all of sudden, you know, you think of something like that, you know, like, like I said, for my stepmom, Christmas was like really important and she loved it. And even if that's not the case, like that, you know, someone that you've lost in your, in your, your family, that wasn't their specific like holiday that they really loved, but just that like,
Lauren (50:00.653)
Right.
Vanessa (50:28.504)
getting together with family and friends, that concept of that and then that person not being there, that can be another tough one to kind of navigate. And before losing my stepmom, I have friends and other family members who have lost a parent. And it's one of those situations where anytime something bad happens, you say, I'm so sorry, I can't imagine. And the reality is you cannot imagine how hard it is to lose a parent.
Lauren (50:29.997)
Yeah.
Vanessa (50:58.216)
until it happens. Like you literally cannot like imagine it. And it can be lost not just of a parent, you know, a child, you know, another somebody else and you're like a close friend. So I think the holidays can be really hard for people to, you know, who are navigating like loss. And that's something that's so important for us to like, you know, remember, I try as I've gotten older, I've gotten better about like,
Wilhelmina (51:17.655)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (51:24.674)
you know, we tell people grace, like, cause you never know what's going on. But like, it's so true. Like, you know, my initial inclination when somebody like, you know, cuts me off, whatever, is to be like, know, like mother trucker. And then I will catch myself and be like, Hey, you know what? Maybe that person just lost their job. Maybe that person's just having a shit ass day, right? Maybe that person just lost a family member, a loved one. So I really do try in those moments to like, even if my initial reaction is like, my gosh, I can't believe that person did that.
Wilhelmina (51:27.257)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (51:29.773)
Yeah.
Lauren (51:44.364)
Right.
Vanessa (51:54.18)
is to kind of be like, okay, you I don't know what's going on in that person's life. And so I think that's like a good kind of perspective to have, you know, especially during the holidays. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Wilhelmina (52:02.701)
Yeah.
Lauren (52:03.244)
Yeah, I think that's good in general at the holidays. I mean, to go back to Wilhelmina's conversation, which is not nearly as challenging as the loss of a loved one, but different political views, like you just don't know what people are going through and where they're coming from. so coming from a place of empathy is always a, I think, always a really good way to approach the holiday season in general. think it's a really good, but especially if you know,
Wilhelmina (52:05.643)
It is. It is.
Teri (52:06.45)
Huh?
Vanessa (52:19.107)
Absolutely.
Vanessa (52:24.376)
Always, yeah.
Vanessa (52:29.784)
Yeah. Yeah.
Lauren (52:33.322)
somebody has lost somebody close to them and you don't know how it's impacting them. Just be empathetic. It goes a long way.
Wilhelmina (52:38.275)
Yeah. Yeah.
Vanessa (52:38.958)
Yeah. Yeah.
Teri (52:40.424)
and always offering the most generous interpretation, right? Like Dr. Becky says, right? Always erring on the most generous interpretation of someone's behavior and where they're coming from.
Wilhelmina (52:43.746)
Yes.
Lauren (52:43.894)
Yes, it goes a long way. Yes. Yes.
Vanessa (52:44.344)
Yes. Yep. Yeah. Yeah.
Lauren (52:50.188)
Yes. When somebody cuts me off in traffic, I always say that it's a woman whose water's broke, her water broken, she's on her way to the hospital. Like that's right. That's a super generous interpretation. And I am immediately like, go on lady.
Vanessa (52:52.398)
Right.
Wilhelmina (52:58.777)
That's a one, yeah.
Vanessa (53:05.156)
you
Teri (53:05.64)
That's a good example, yes.
Vanessa (53:07.588)
You
Wilhelmina (53:08.185)
Well, and I think this is really just a good time to really be aware of the things that you are thankful and grateful for, and not in like a Mary Poppins way, but just in a hold those loved ones close because you don't know what's gonna happen. And you can be annoyed by family members, but then also think, but if they weren't here, sometimes that's... So really reminding yourself that this is stressful, this is...
Lauren (53:16.77)
No.
Vanessa (53:22.481)
yeah. You don't know. Yeah.
Lauren (53:23.596)
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
Lauren (53:32.386)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (53:36.537)
I mean, it is. The holidays are hard. That is true. But think about some of the really wonderful things and the joy and the gratitude that you can be with your family. You can be enjoying friends, enjoying good food, the things that have brought you here for this time of year. So I think it is a good time to honor that and remind yourself of that so you can be present.
than not regret like, I didn't even, I was just so busy. didn't even.
Vanessa (54:07.896)
Right. Yeah, and thinking about like, you know, and when there's family like kind of, you know, stressful dynamics. And I think one of the things to say to yourself is like, is this really a big deal? Are the other things worth, you know, me just saying like, I don't really care what Uncle Frank says, I'm just going to move on, right? Like, I'm just not going to give that. I'm just not going to give that my, you know, attention energy. Exactly. Like, I'm just going to let that go because, know, all the other the other 49 people here bring me joy. And this is such a great time to be with my family. And you're right, you truly don't know.
Lauren (54:08.47)
You got it.
Wilhelmina (54:17.677)
Mm-hmm. Yes.
Lauren (54:22.925)
Right.
Energy. Yeah. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (54:26.443)
energy.
Lauren (54:33.56)
perspective.
Wilhelmina (54:33.623)
Yes. Yeah.
Vanessa (54:37.928)
You know, my stepmom was only 54 when she passed away. If you had told me that was going to be the last time that I had Christmas with her, I would have been like, you're out of your mind, right? You know, and so you don't know. And so, yeah, so I think if you can, you know, find that kind of good space and say, you know, let me put that aside, that's not a big deal. If it really isn't like a big deal to do that, you know, especially again, it's a lot of things we're talking about today can be implemented at any point in your life, but particularly during the holidays when you are
Lauren (54:44.47)
Right.
Lauren (55:03.458)
Right.
heightened.
Vanessa (55:06.73)
Right, you're heightened because you've got, there are more kind of opportunities to be with family and friends. That's like the expectation, right? That these situations are gonna be more available during that time of year. So absolutely. Any other thoughts on stressors during the holidays, holidays in general?
Lauren (55:25.88)
That's a great place to leave it.
Vanessa (55:27.49)
Yeah. Well, thank you all for joining our discussion today on managing stressors during the holiday season. This episode will actually be our last one for this season, but no worries. We will be back the first week in January with a whole new season. Please be sure to email us at the shrinkdown.podcast at gmail.com with suggestions for topics you would like us to discuss. Like I mentioned, this topic from today was actually one that somebody emailed us about. So please do email us if you have some ideas. We will also be posting a quick survey on Instagram.
Wilhelmina (55:27.523)
Yeah.
Vanessa (55:56.868)
Just asking kind of about things that you might want us to talk about and just get a sense of what people are enjoying as far as the podcast topics. If you're not following us already, please do. Our handle is at the shrink down.