Chris Dye, category manager for renewable energy at Pilkington Glass

On Sustainability Insiders, Kevin Hegarty and Libby Drabble talk to business leaders to find out how they're making their companies more sustainable. In this episode, Kevin talks to Chris Dye, category manager for renewable energy at Pilkington Glass, part of NSG Group, which is one of the world's leading manufacturers of glass and glazing systems. In their conversation, Chris explains how the company is decarbonising by using hydrogen and biofuels instead of natural gas in its manufacturing processes, how it's used a range of technological innovations to reduce carbon emissions, and how ideas from employees at all levels of the business have developed into long-term sustainability projects.

What is Sustainability Insiders?

In each episode of Sustainability Insiders, Kevin Hegarty speaks to business leaders to find out how they're making their companies more sustainable. In season two, Camilla Smith, from specialist sustainability recruiter Sustii, shares what candidates and employers are looking for in this fast‑growing talent marketplace. Ian O’Donnell MBE, from the Federation of Small Businesses, talks about the challenges - and opportunities - small businesses face in operating sustainably. And one of the sector’s standout leaders, Mary Aladegbola, breaks down how she navigates net-zero challenges across NHS England. Other guests include ESG lead Ewan Donald from engineering business Ipsum, and Graham Duxbury, Chief Executive of Groundwork. Hopefully each of their stories will inspire you on your sustainability journey, and give you the ideas and tools you need to make your own company more sustainable in the very near future.

Kevin Hegarty: 00:02

Hi, and welcome to Sustainability Insiders, the podcast that talks to business leaders to find out how they're making their companies more sustainable. I'm Kevin Hegarty.

Libby Drabble: 00:12

And I'm Libby Drabble. And we both work for Cadent, a UK utility business that's on its own sustainability journey.

Kevin Hegarty: 00:19

Cards on the table, we are not experts on this. But perhaps like you, we're eager to learn. Join us on our journey as we chat to business leaders who are finding the answers right now to some of the biggest sustainability challenges. In this episode, I speak to Chris Dye, category manager for renewable energy at Pilkington Glass, which is part of NSG Group, one of the world's leading manufacturers of glass and glazing systems. In our conversation, Chris explains how the company is decarbonizing by using hydrogen and biofuels in its manufacturing processes.

Kevin Hegarty: 00:52

He also talks about a range of technological innovations to reduce carbon emissions and how ideas from employees at all levels of the business have developed into long term sustainability projects. Hi, Chris, and welcome to Sustainability Insiders. It's brilliant to have you on the podcast.

Chris Dye: 01:08

Hi, Kevin. Yeah. No. Great to be here. Thanks for for having me on.

Kevin Hegarty: 01:12

So let's start by talking about the product that Pilkington's is famous for, glass. You know, it's it's involved in so many things. It's part of our everyday lives. Can you talk me through the different uses that glasses put to these days? Perhaps some of the more unusual ones as well as the ones that everybody would be more familiar with.

Chris Dye: 01:31

Yeah. Sure. I mean, glasses is obviously a a product that that everyone is aware of, but you probably don't think of too much. But I I think our world would be very different without it. The the the products that we make are mainly around the the the architectural sector.

Chris Dye: 01:50

So that's glass that is used in in your homes for for your your windows typically, but but also glass that is used in in the automotive sector. We provide glass into most of the major car manufacturers globally. We're a tier one supplier into all of the the major brands that that you'll see on the road. And also that glass, like I said, that that goes into, you know, wide range of applications that that you see in in your home. We also produce glass that goes into, yeah, some weird and wonderful things, timing belts, engines that they have a a glass fiber cord that that runs in inside the rubber belt, a range of different glass products that that are used in printers, lenses, quite a wide range of of other different items as well.

Chris Dye: 02:47

So, yeah, it's a really versatile product, something that I think is a little bit undervalued generally in in society, but something that we certainly couldn't live without today. More recently, we've we've done a lot of development work in the the field of solar as well. So supplying glass to to major solar manufacturers. Clearly, that that's a a growing market for us and and, you know, generally in the world as well. So helping to, yeah, to to keep people warm in their homes, keep them safe when they're in vehicles, and now also producing low carbon and and renewable electricity at the same time.

Chris Dye: 03:28

So a really versatile product and something that we should we should really value.

Kevin Hegarty: 03:33

And I have to declare an interest in this because I'm originally from Saint Helens, and Pilkington's is, you know, such a big business within both Saint Helens, but clearly in many places around the world. And and I wanted to talk you through about the glass production process because it's this is where my interest is largely is at the moment in terms of the sustainability side of things. And, obviously, it's it's not an easy product to make in terms of the amount of energy you need to keep those furnaces going. Let's can we talk about that a bit, please?

Chris Dye: 04:06

Yes. Certainly. And and, yeah, Saint Helens has very much been central to to the the development of glass. Pilkington itself was a business that started in Saint Helens almost two hundred years ago now, and we've been a world leader in in glass manufacturing ever since. We still employ, you know, two or 3,000 people in in The UK, and and we have a very large manufacturing base in Saint Helens and and, you know, further afield as well.

Chris Dye: 04:36

We're we're part of the NSG Group now, which is a a Japanese headquartered glass manufacturing business. But, yeah, ultimately, yeah, it is a a very energy intensive process. We we have to melt raw materials like sand. That requires very high temperatures, and we we typically run the furnace operations that we've got somewhere between fifteen hundred and sixteen hundred degrees Celsius. It's a continuous process as well.

Chris Dye: 05:10

It it's not something that we can stop and and start. Once you begin a furnace, you are making a commitment for that particular facility to run for anywhere from between fifteen and and twenty years. So, yeah, we we really have very static, assets that that, you know, that they will produce glass continuously. And, you know, in some ways, that that makes our role challenging when we're considering decarbonization and and reducing the carbon content of of those particular products that that are made from the facilities. You don't get much of an opportunity, you you know, to to actually make wholesale changes to the the operations.

Chris Dye: 05:54

That fifteen year cycle is is ended with a what we term as a cold repair. So that the line is taken down for anywhere from ninety to a hundred days and is is basically rebuilt. So all of the the refractory materials that those are are removed, replaced with with new materials. And that's the only time over the furnace lifetime that that that furnace gets cold. So as you can imagine, at those kind of temperatures, yeah, it's very difficult to work in and around the furnace.

Chris Dye: 06:29

The energy consumption is is huge. That's been a major concern for us, as you can imagine, with energy prices being where they have been over the last two to three years. But my my team have worked very hard to to protect our business from some of those really high prices. But, yeah, in terms of consumption, one of our facilities, one furnace will consume about the same amount of natural gas in a in a year as a town of, let's say, 25 to 30,000 people. So it's a really significant gas consumer and, you know, something that ultimately we we need to keep operational for that fifteen years with a continuous supply of fuel.

Chris Dye: 07:09

So that feeds into some of the, I guess, the risk appetite that that people have on-site. It's a very steady state process, but ultimately one that that does have, you know, carbon footprint to it and and something that we're really looking to challenge with some quite innovative alternative fuels as as we'll as we'll develop over the next few years.

Kevin Hegarty: 07:32

And that's the interesting bit, isn't it? It's it's so fascinating that you get a a kind of once every fifteen year shot at at changing this energy source, if you like, and changing the the way that the the the glass is produced. What sort of energy sources are you looking at then at the moment to as though as as a means to help The UK and and the industrial sector reach its net zero targets?

Chris Dye: 07:57

Yeah. So the the majority of our furnaces globally run on natural gas. It's typically the the lowest cost fuel, the most readily available. What we're trying to do is is build up what some of my colleagues have termed a toolbox of options. And and, actually, we've been very successful in in the last three to four years, particularly in The UK with, you know, some quite advanced and and world leading trials of of alternative fuels.

Chris Dye: 08:31

We we conducted the the world's first full hydrogen trial on a furnace So that this is where we we use hydrogen that that had been produced in a pretty typical way. So it was it was gray hydrogen, but that that was actually a proof of concept on the furnace to to prove to ourselves and and and to the industry that hydrogen could be used to to melt the raw materials in place of of natural gas. So that was a both a blending trial and also a direct 100% firing trial of of hydrogen within the furnace. Technically, very successful. And and we're now looking to to try and commercialize projects that that use and and introduce hydrogen in place of natural gas.

Chris Dye: 09:22

Very similarly, what we've worked on, what we're terming as a as biofuel. So these are liquid fuels, typically from waste processes. So they they would be, for example, waste cooking oils, animal fats, kind of end end of life materials that that we're repurposing and and using in in our furnace again in in place of natural gas. And, really, those two options for us really spell out what we think will be, you know, a a successful road map to to decarbonization. They've they've been used, you know, in anger in The UK, And and we've been very fortunate to to benefit from U UK government funding as well as making investments from our own internal funds to to support those trials.

Chris Dye: 10:18

And, you know, the the colleagues that that I've got within our r and d teams and technical teams and and the production teams have worked incredibly hard to make those trials a success. So we're really proud of that activity. It's something that we're hoping to build on. And, yeah, I think that there's a really bright future for for those fuels so long as we can get them in the right quantity and the right price that that the the quantity is is a major issue. And and, actually, the scale of of our demand is is significant to the point where the hydrogen trial I think we used it pretty much all of the hydrogen in the North Of England just for a few hours as part of that trial.

Chris Dye: 10:56

So, yeah, there there are challenges, but we are optimistic that that we're building that toolkit, that toolbox to to allow us to to develop these solutions and and deploy them over the next the next few years.

Kevin Hegarty: 11:09

It's really interesting, isn't it? And I I'm I'm fascinated by that element of of bringing in other waste products, if you like, that might otherwise, you know, just not be used or put to this sort of use. So the biofuels aspect of it, you know, things that might become a waste product from something else that then helps generate something else, which kinda brings me onto this topic I wanted to discuss around the circular economy and recycling. And I imagine, you know, when a when a when various buildings are demolished and there's glass and other things that that are part of that that demolition. And I gather there are ways that this this product can be used to to come back into the into the production cycle and to reuse again.

Kevin Hegarty: 11:53

Can you explain that a bit to me about the recycling of the the glass product?

Chris Dye: 11:58

Yeah. So glass is, you know, is relatively unique. It it can be endlessly recycled. I think that's one of its kind of endearing properties. We are, yeah, incredibly keen to to get that material and then, yeah, color is, I would say, the the the industry reference to, yeah, to to waste glass that that can be can be reused in in a an endless number of ways.

Chris Dye: 12:25

We're very, very keen, you know, to to maximize that as a as a feedstock, you know, to to replace raw materials and also to help with the the energy consumption. But, you know, generally, within the flat glass sector within which we operate, less than 1% of float glass is actually recycled today. Most of that that collect goes back into, yeah, either into landfill or or into aggregates. So it it has some use, you know, in in aggregates, but that that's not the value really that that, you know, we should see from that that material. So we're we're very keen to embark on on campaigns with our customers to to reclaim what we would term as as pre consumer cullet.

Chris Dye: 13:17

So that's glass that that hasn't gone into a final product yet. We're working with the those customers to to reuse that particular product. Also considering post consumer cullet so that this is glass that may have come from from a building, for example, that that's been demolished or or replaced. And and that is a challenge. You know, that that that collect is, yeah, relatively low value.

Chris Dye: 13:46

And the the contractors who are removing or or demolishing a building have typically got other priorities rather than trying to to reclaim any particular material such as as glass from that. So, yeah, we're we're working with a a range of different organizations, and and British Glass have got a a really good couple of pages on on their website, which detail, you know, some of our requests and and some of the industry's requests to to try and and maximize that that value. I think that there's been a lot of success within the glass sector, but primarily within the container glass sector. So I'm I'm thinking about wine bottles, beer bottles, jam jars, and things like that where, you know, at home, we all recognize the need and and the route to to actually recycle those materials. It's a little bit different for for glass that you would see in in your home, in your windows, for example, or even if your windscreen is replaced in in in your car, you know, the minute that glass doesn't necessarily find its way back into our processes to to be used again.

Chris Dye: 15:00

So, you know, we we've got some specific projects in in The UK. We're working with one particular vehicle manufacturer to recover automotive. That that's gonna be processed up in Yorkshire and and then sent back to one of our facilities in in Saint Helens. Relatively low low low quantities at the minute, but still in the thousands of tons per year. And so, you know, it's projects like that that I think will really start to capture people's imagination and and hopefully lead to a a society and a a system where very similar to to what we see at home with with jam jars and wine bottles and things like that that we we become a little bit more accustomed to to recycling and and reusing those particular products.

Kevin Hegarty: 15:47

I think you're right. I think it's we've all become very used, haven't we, to recycling in our own home, with with with some areas probably bet more successful than others. But if we can if we can move that into the industrial space, I think it'd just be fantastic, it? Where I can accept there are challenges. But if we if we can do that, that would be amazing.

Kevin Hegarty: 16:06

Can I ask you about supply chain side of things, Chris? And I'm very conscious that your own business is looking to decarbonize and help The UK on its journey to net zero. And but that also means you're helping as a as a member of the supply chain and supplying a product that is then used in another product that you are helping other businesses achieve their their goals as well. Is there other some examples of where where Pilkington is actively involved in doing that so that you can share?

Chris Dye: 16:35

Yeah. I mean, ultimately, if if you think about glass in your home, it it's there, you know, to to let light in, and it's there to to keep heat in as well. You know? So ever really ever since glass has been used in in your home, that there's been an environmental benefit to that. And that continues today right through a range of different product developments that we've got.

Chris Dye: 17:04

I'm thinking specifically about coating coatings that that we put on onto glass. Ultimately, they will, in some way, improve the thermal efficiency of the product. So they will keep heat in or or, you know, keep heat out depending on on which of those particular drivers you've got. So, yeah, it it really just depend on on the environment, but products like that have been around for a long time and and the developments that we've made in, specifically, in in coatings technology, again, with the the r and d facilities that that we've got, have been instrumental in, you know, in furthering that technology. We're working very closely with our automotive customers to reduce the the thickness of the the windscreens and and the the glazing that that's in vehicles.

Chris Dye: 17:59

Ultimately, that helps to reduce the weight of a vehicle and therefore increase the range or or the, yeah, the the miles that that are possible, you know, based on the the energy input. We're also looking at at using switchable glazings in in automotive vehicles, and and these, again, restrict the the heat gain, you know, in into vehicles and and therefore reduce the demand for for cooling, again, giving more energy output to to range rather than to to comfort because the glazing really does that for you. Pilkington have developed through the use of of some biofuels and renewable electricity and and actually recycled cullet, the lowest flat glass product that that's on the market today, a product called Pilkington Mirai, which is a 51% reduction in in c o two compared to standard float glass. And and we're starting to see, you know, greater pull from the market for these kind of products where architects and specifiers are are really pointing to the the sustainable and and decarbonization credentials of of glass within a building. So that all being said, you know, as I mentioned earlier, also working on on on solar generation as well.

Chris Dye: 19:26

And it's pretty remarkable that the the carbon payback for for some of the the solar modules that we help build, you know, that those are certainly less than six months and and in some days, some cases counted in in days. So I I think, ultimately, we've got to see carbon emissions in some ways as as being a bit of an investment. And the all of those products that I mentioned there, that they are more energy intensive to manufacture than than their standard counterpart products.

Kevin Hegarty: 20:01

So moving away a little bit from the production side of the business and more into kind of the everyday operation of of many of your sites. And I and I know you've got sites in lots of different countries around the world as well as The UK. What sort of steps are you taking within the sustainability space to find new ways and and ways that aren't as harmful to the planet to actually power your kind of everyday activities beyond the furnace, if I'll call it that, you know, the kind of, you know, the general office related work that might be going on. And maybe there there might be some tips that you could share as you've you've you've been on that journey for people who might be listening to the podcast on whatever stage of that journey they might be on themselves.

Chris Dye: 20:43

Yeah. Well, as a an energy intensive industry, the the energy emissions and and, you know, all of the associated cost that goes with that that particular input has been pretty much front and center for us, you know, for for decades. We've had very well established energy and carbon management systems and and and processes and reviews in place now for for, yeah, for for many, many years. Some of the things that that we have been able to do, you know, are of no surprise to you. I'd imagine working with the most energy efficient products and and processes.

Chris Dye: 21:29

So, you know, a very simple thing, but LED lighting, variable speed drives, latest compressed air systems, a whole range of of energy efficiency equipment that that is all, let's say, peripheral to to our process. It it's may may not be directly related to the the actual melting process and and the furnace, but, you know, in its own right, it's still quite a significant energy consumption. So, yeah, there's there's been a huge focus on that. And and, ultimately, you know, that that has helped us to reduce our own costs as well as our carbon emissions. I I think when it comes to the process, you know, that that has to be, you know, a a huge priority for us.

Chris Dye: 22:21

As things stand today, the lowest cost way to produce glass is still using fossil fuels. And so all of the alternatives that that we have trialed and and tested for the future. We cannot simply, you know, convert those those facilities across to alternatives because of the scale, because of the cost that that that is is required. And and, ultimately, our our customers, you know, they they they can't accept all all of those costs, you know, in in the short term. So we're we're having to to work on on opportunities when they present themselves.

Chris Dye: 23:03

We think we've got some really great opportunities, particularly in The UK, actually, with with with hydrogen, and we are developing a number of projects there as well as overseas and in other locations. But, you know, some of the support that we see from from the UK government on on these alternative fuels, you know, is is putting us in a really a really good place. Ultimately, we are working with emission data that that is is known to us. And I think that that's probably the first tip that that I would give to people is, you know, really get a good understanding of what your emissions are, set targets around those, and and and talk about them. You know?

Chris Dye: 23:47

I I think it's it's important to to engage the full supply chain, exchange ideas, you know, really understand what other industries have done. You know, I think a lot of industries face very similar challenges, and it's important to, yeah, to to exchange ideas, not not to, yeah, just keep them all to yourself and ultimately to, yeah, to to learn from from others. We have to also consider that, you know, carbon emissions, if we want to support customers, you know, they are going to, yeah, to to be higher than than they may be today when we consider certain products that we manufacture. But, ultimately, you know, that that's for the better of society and and and certainly helps, you know, the fight against climate change if if we can see that payback of, you know, several months for for the carbon that that's invested and and use that as an opportunity. So taking a a step back, looking at the bigger picture, considering where carbon should be invested, I I think, is is an important step for for us and and certainly a mindset shift that that that we've had internally.

Chris Dye: 25:05

But, yeah, I'd certainly start with with some of the basics, know the emissions, set some targets, and and, yeah, generally share the information that you've got, talk around, you know, some of the opportunities, and, yeah, consider that carbon you know? Yes. That there is a a penalty to carbon emissions, but ultimately, if it's invested in the right place, then that that can help.

Kevin Hegarty: 25:33

And do you find that in some cases, it might be smaller projects that kick off, like, a bigger bigger term thinking, if you like, within the the employee workforce? And, you know, obviously, you're a big company with lots of employees. Is it you sometimes find there's the little nuggets that happen that kinda come from the shop floor if you like that suddenly move their way all the way all the way through the business, and it it's it's a you know, it becomes like that that that big thing that you that just came from nowhere.

Chris Dye: 26:05

Yeah. It it definitely can be. I mean, the the energy management program that that I referenced, that that has, you know, very much been a bottom up process with, you know, suggestions made from, you know, from site level rather than senior management teams kind of instructing sites what to do. The the road maps that we've got for decarbonization have all been developed at a plant level, and those have been done locally. So I think that then gives the freedom to to people who, you know, who are based locally to, yeah, to react to opportunities as they see them.

Chris Dye: 26:46

You know, I I worked on one of our first solar projects in in The UK probably six or seven years ago. That was an idea that came from the site. And, you know, that that grew in into what became a really, you know, really popular project. I still get asked questions about that today from from employees. And, you know, really, on on the back of that, we were able to to develop quite a wide program of of on-site solar across a range of different sites.

Chris Dye: 27:17

And the the idea that that really started that came from the fact that we we produce glass that goes into solar panels. You know? What what why can we not demonstrate that technology, our own product, the the coatings that we've developed within our our own r and d team. Why can we not demonstrate that as well as our customers' product and and do some some good for the world with, you know, a a new build solar asset that that's on our site. So that particular product, you know, has has supported us now in a range of different projects globally.

Chris Dye: 27:55

And, ultimately, you know, we get lots of visitors interested to to see our own products, and and, ultimately, employees really, I think, benefit from that as well, seeing some of the, yeah, the the developments that we've introduced into the market. So, yeah, small ideas, they they can definitely deliver very large impact projects.

Kevin Hegarty: 28:17

I think that's so interesting, isn't it? You know, the perhaps one of those things that isn't often talk talked about, the bringing your workforce with you and having the advocacy within the business is so important as we all go on this journey towards finding a world where where we aren't emitting as much carbon, but we're still able to deliver such important products as you've described like glass, you know, so it's so important to everyday life. Chris, I just wanted to thank you finally for for joining us on the podcast. It's been a it's been lovely to chat to you today, and and I hope some people take away some real good tips and advice there that you've given them on their sustainability journeys.

Chris Dye: 29:01

Yep. No problem, Kevin. Yeah. It's been been great to be on, and, yeah, thank you for for the opportunity.

Kevin Hegarty: 29:06

Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed this episode of Sustainability Insiders, please give the show a follow and a review in your podcast app.

Libby Drabble: 29:14

If you've got a story to share about how you're making your business or industry more sustainable, we'd love to hear from you. Send us an email using [e-mail]. Speak to you again soon.