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A board-certified family law attorney, Jaime Davis and her guests provide information and tips for getting through a separation and divorce without destroying family relationships or finances. From marriage therapists and financial planners to private investigators and parenting coordinators, learn how to navigate divorce without destruction.
JAMIE: Welcome to a year in a day. I'm Jamie Davis,
board certified family law attorney at Gaylorhunt. On this show, I talk with
lawyers, psychologists, and other experts with
the goal of helping you navigate divorce without
destruction. In this episode, I'm talking with divorce and empowerment coach Beverly Price. While
consulting an attorney can help you with the legal
challenges of a divorce, I see my clients face
emotional challenges throughout the process, too,
and I often encourage them to talk with someone
like Beverly. In this episode, we're going to
be talking about some of the emotional challenges
that women face during the divorce process. Thanks
for joining me.
BEVERLY: Beverly oh, thank you so much for having
me. I feel like it's an honor.
JAMIE: So, first off, what is a divorce and empowerment
coach? How did you become one?
BEVERLY: Well, a divorce and empowerment coach combines the best of divorce
coaching and the best of empowerment coaching
to help women on their journey. Whether they're
just thinking about divorcing and want more clarity.
Whether they're separated and want to understand
the overall divorce process and want someone in
their corner. Whether they're in the actual legal
and financial situation. I help them with not
letting their emotions hijack them or whether
they are divorced for a number of years and feel
stuck in negative emotions and want a better life.
And I became a divorce coach, as many divorce
coaches do from their own divorce experience.
And I know you're in North Carolina, and my divorces
unfortunately, more than one, were in North Carolina.
After I went through them and way back when I
did it, we didn't have divorce coaches or mediators
or any of the experts that are available now.
And it was painful and it took a long time, and
I felt very alone. So I wanted to change that
for women so that not only do they not feel alone,
but they feel empowered as they come out the other
side to live a better life.
JAMIE: That's wonderful. I say that to my clients
as well. You not only want to survive your divorce,
you want to thrive through it. So I think the
work you're doing is just wonderful.
BEVERLY: Beverly oh, thank you.
JAMIE: How do you know if you need a divorce and
empowerment coach?
BEVERLY: Some people think that a divorce coach
is a luxury, but I think it's a necessity, and
many attorneys that I've talked to do as well.
Number one, if you don't have one, you don't necessarily
have someone in your corner to help you emotionally,
logistically, technically, and skill wise. With
a divorce coach, you have someone that will help
you in every aspect of the divorce leading up
to then contacting other divorce professionals.
I'll give women kind of a very high level overview
of what the process looks like. The different professionals involved. I can refer them to
professionals if they need, and I help them, most
of all emotionally, so that we learn how to process
our emotions, work through them, deal with them,
and kind of push them to the side when we're in
that negotiation and legal process so they can
really think clearly, make better decisions.
JAMIE: I think that's wonderful. I mean, it can
be so hard for women to make good business decisions
about their divorce, which is what they need to
do. Right? We're talking about money and finances.
This needs to be a business decision. The emotion
needs to be taken out of it. And that can be really
tough to do if you don't have someone supporting
you through that process.
BEVERLY: Yeah, especially if you've come out and
you feel really intense emotionally, whether there
was infidelity, whether there's bitterness, whether
it was a total shock, whether there was abuse,
or just any kind of really intense situation.
But even if it isn't, having someone to walk you
through it, I think so many women think that divorce
is this kind of event, but what they don't understand
is divorce impacts the entire rest of your life.
And if you have children, the rest of your children's
life. And so how you go through it, what you learn and how you grow, really determines what in that life can be
better than you've ever dreamed of. And a lot
of people go, oh, that's ridiculous. But it's
true. I've gone through it. I've come through
the pain, I've come through the legal process,
and I've come out the other side empowered and
with a loving, wonderful life afterwards. So if
I went through it, I know other women can go through
it and I can show them.
JAMIE: Absolutely. I mean, that's the whole premise
of this podcast in my book. You can go through
divorce without destruction. It is possible with
the right help.
BEVERLY: Exactly. And also, if it is the kind
of divorce with destruction, you probably need
even more support and more help and more work
on your emotions than even with an amicable divorce.
But I think I saw somewhere where only 3% of divorces
actually go into intense, hostile litigation.
I don't know if you'd agree with that. So for
the most part, while your emotions may feel intense
and hostile, you can go through a divorce somewhat
amicably. And maybe that's a misnomer, maybe it's
more business like than amicable. As you said,
approach it as a business decision. But I think
that having that kind of help and support and
guidance as well as opportunity for you to grow
is really important. I wish I had that kind of
support when I was going through it.
JAMIE: Yeah, I would agree with you. I think it's
the rare case that ends up in the courtroom. There
may be some small hearings along the way for other
cases, but it's the rare case that the whole case
is being resolved in a courtroom. But I agree
it's not going to feel amicable even if you are,
quote unquote, amicable with your spouse. It's
a change. It's a big life change and that's going
to be hard for you regardless of how your spouse
reacts. I mean, if both parties play nice, you
can get through the process relatively unscathed.
But it's still a giant life event for you that
you need to learn how to process and deal with.
BEVERLY: Yes, some of the most important things
to a person are the home that they live in and
the family vibe that they create and their children
and their finances. So if you figure a divorce touches on all of these, it's
very natural that they're going to have emotional reactions to it. And divorce being one
of those major life events that are difficult
to deal with. I think it's second behind death
of a loved one. You've got a lot you've got to
deal with.
JAMIE: When you and I spoke last, you mentioned
to me that 79% of women don't consider themselves
confident and that four out of five women consider
themselves to be less than other women. Exactly
how can these self esteem issues impact the divorce
process?
BEVERLY: Well, if you think about that means only
21% of women feel confident. So if you come into
a divorce not feeling confident, not having self
esteem, feeling less than, then imagine you put
this divorce on top of it almost as another layer or what I liken it to is a trash compactor and it
pushes it down and down and down. So if you start
with very little self esteem, the divorce can
push you beyond your limits and can push you into
a very negative position with a whole lot of negative
self talk, a whole lot of self doubt, no self
love, no self care. So many of those things. Now
there are rare women that are without help are kind of recharged by their divorce, but that is
very rare. So that's one of the reasons, I think
having someone in your corner to show you that
you are not less than to show you how to take
baby steps to become confident and to raise your
self esteem is so important. Because if you think
about it, if you go through this divorce and you're
smashed so low, what are you going to be like
when you come out of the divorce? And how can
you build a life after that if you are so down
on yourself? And it also I would say this lack
of self esteem when it's so low can lead to very
intense depression which is certainly not healthy
for anyone.
JAMIE: No, definitely not. I mean, having a cheerleader when you're going through your divorce
is huge. Somebody that you can go to on your worst
day, who is going to build you back up to that
place you need to be. I mean, even in the nicest
I'm going to put that word in air quotes, but
the nicest of divorces, your spouse is likely
going to say things about you that hurt your feelings,
that make you feel bad, that make you feel like
you weren't a good wife, a good mother.
BEVERLY: Exactly.
JAMIE: You've got to have the tools to be able
to handle those negative things from the person
that was your partner.
BEVERLY: Exactly. And so many women, when their divorce happens and their marriage dissolves, feel like a failure because they
have lived their life and their identity was mother
and wife. And so if you take one half of their
role away, then they're left with emptiness. And
that is just a terrible position to be in because
you come out of it and you go, who am I?
JAMIE: Right.
BEVERLY: And what I like to do is shift their
thinking from who am I? To I am and I am this
amazing woman rather than I failed and I'm less
than and I'm bad. I think as well. Teaching them
tools such as practicing positive self talk, affirmations,
practicing gratitude and mindset shifting can
really help. There's actually pathways in your
brain that are formed based on the way you think.
And when you think negatively, the pathways in
your brain form very negative thoughts so that
your automatic thinking becomes negative. So one
of the things we have to do is we have to create
positive pathways to shift our thinking so that
the positive responses become automatic rather
than the negative.
JAMIE: That's really interesting. It's almost
like it's a self fulfilling prophecy that if you're
down on yourself, you're going to continue to
fulfill that and vice versa.
BEVERLY: Yeah. And it's actually not too different
from being down on your spouse. One of the things
I tried to practice with my ex, who was the father
of my children was finding something positive
about him. And so what I found that was positive
about him well, I didn't even find something that
was positive about him. I chose to think positively
of him and I kept saying he is a good father and
he is a good person. He is paying his child support.
Now, I know some people don't have the luxury
of that situation, but I actually was in an environment of domestic violence and abuse. So I went
to a therapist who suggested or told me that a
child gets part of their identity from each parent.
And she had a client whose husband create was
in prison and had committed a heinous crime, but
she was advised to try and find one redeeming
point, no matter how small and continue to share
that with the children because the children get
a part of their identity from each parent. And
so one of the things I tried to do was find positive
things. And my ex grew from what I would consider
a negative or a poor husband and a hostile situation.
The more I looked at him as positive it almost
became. The more positive he became in my eyes,
the more I could find that something instead of
focusing on that he was nasty or he was an abuser
or whatever. And I could say he is a good father.
It was amazing the change that took place. I wouldn't say amicable, but we were professional about it, and we were actually
able to coparent positively and had a very positive
co parenting relationship versus an awful marriage.
And some people even came up to us and said, why did you divorce? You all look like you get along
so well. And the answer became, we can't live
with each other.
JAMIE: That's wonderful. So many parents don't
realize how harmful it is to the children when
they speak negatively about the other parents. So kudos to you for being
such a great co parent.
BEVERLY: Well, it was difficult. You had to put
your own feelings aside, and you had to prioritize
those children the best you could. Now, there
wasn't a rulebook of how to be a good parent back
then, and there weren't parenting coordinators
and there weren't parenting coaches. And so I
don't think I necessarily did a great job as a
parent because my children have told me now about
what they felt was lacking from me as a parent.
But I feel like I did the absolute best I could
at the moment and wish I had a parenting coordinator,
a parent coach.
JAMIE: Yeah, things have definitely evolved in
that arena, for sure.
BEVERLY: Yeah. And I just admire you for also taking on that parenting coordinator role in addition to your legal
role because I think understanding that is so
incredible.
JAMIE: Well, thank you. I enjoy the work. I like
helping the families. It's interesting trying
to help co parents learn how to communicate when
they've had years of a pattern of not being able
to communicate with one another.
BEVERLY: Exactly.
JAMIE: It's not always the easiest job, but I
enjoy it.
BEVERLY: Yeah, well, I'm sure you do a great job
at it.
JAMIE: Well, tell me, what are some of the problems
you work to solve with your clients?
BEVERLY: Well, the first one is we've mentioned
before dealing with emotions. Most of them are
negative when they come in, and they can be negative
about the spouse, they can be negative about themselves.
And those two things in either regard are very
harmful, not only to the divorce, but to the people
involved. Involved and the children. So we try
and work on processing emotions, measuring emotions,
setting goals of different types of things to
do that can actually shift that mindset and shift
those emotions. I think the difference some people
don't know the difference between a therapist
and a coach and a dear friend of mine who is a
psychotherapist and a trauma specialist. And I
came up with this delineation that a therapist
looks backward and looks at childhood traumas, childhood issues, domestic violence, other traumas, PTSD,
narcissism. And a coach looks present and forward
and uses somewhat of a goal setting approach to
help move that person forward. And so it really
depends and sometimes people need both because
there may be a lot of their emotions are really
the result of childhood trauma and the current
situation is triggering it. And that prevents
you from being this civil, professional person.
One of the techniques I suggest to women is to
visualize a box. They can make it as beautiful
and elaborate as they want. And it has a lid and it has a lock. And
so what I want them to do is when they have a
meeting or a discussion about their divorce or
an interaction with their husband, I want them
to open that box, take all of their emotions and
put them in that box, shut it and lock it so they
can have kind of a neutral position. And then
if they want, when they finish that interaction,
they can open that box and take all those emotions
back. But it's important to know, and you've said
it many times, that the most effective, the most inexpensive, the most positive, long lasting results.
And happier lives come from when you can be neutral
or civil or view divorce as a business transaction
where there's not the emotional attachments going
on. And that's extremely hard to do. A lot of
women have to do a lot of work to get there. They
can save a lot of money doing that.
JAMIE: Yeah, definitely. I was going to say I
love the metaphor of just sort of putting the
emotions in the box and then taking them back
out when you're done. I do think it's easier said
than done. Right? And certainly a learned process.
But I love that.
BEVERLY: Like you said, baby steps.
JAMIE: Absolutely. So what does your process look
like when you have a client?
BEVERLY: Well, my process is totally custom to
the woman and it's one on one and virtual. I have
clients across the United States and internationally
and essentially it begins with a consultation
that is free. And I look at what stage the woman's
in. Is she contemplating divorce? Is she in the
divorce or is it afterwards? And based on that
and based on the things she tells me, I design
something specific for her. For example, if a
woman is full of fear, what we try to do is look
at that fear, break it down, look at the sources
of that fear and work through it. And divorce
brings up tremendous fear. If a woman has huge
triggers that the divorce is triggering, we look
at those and analyze those, figure out what's
triggering it. If it is past issues, past trauma,
I would refer that client to also see a therapist.
If that woman is extremely fearful of finances,
I may refer her to a certified divorce financial
analyst so she can actually factually learn her
position. Because a lot of times fear is a lack
of knowledge and also self confidence and self
esteem can be a lack of knowledge. So the more knowledge I can provide her, the higher
the baseline we're working from. I look at what skills she has. Does she have effective communication, time management, organizational skills?
One of the biggest effects of divorce is massive
overwhelm. And what we do is we try and break
that down into small steps, as I've heard you
say, so that you can not feel overwhelmed. Look
at what you have to do prioritize. Do you really
have to do all those things? Is the world going
to come to an end if you don't do all of those
things? And there are other things we can evaluate.
If a woman is experiencing domestic violence is
fearful, I refer her to domestic violence professionals.
I am very aware of what my strengths are and what
other people's strengths are. If someone is involved
in a negative co parenting situation, I will refer
them to a co parenting specialist. So it really
because it's all custom. It depends on what that
woman's needs are, whether it's emotionally, skill
wise, education wise, or all of those. I can build
it just for her.
JAMIE: What are some of the greatest challenges
that you have seen clients face in working with
you through this process?
BEVERLY: The first one that comes to mind is when someone has suffered financial abuse. When they find out
that the spouse has done things financially, that
puts them at risk long term. For example, there
was a client that had separated but didn't have
a legal separation agreement, and the husband had some investments in an IRA
and he went and cashed in that whole IRA. And
she got a massive tax impact because of that and she was unaware of it. He also was filing unemployment
and not reporting his earnings. So she got the
tax hit because of that. Other women, the men, have exclusively managed the finances and they're totally
unaware of everything. They can't even see the
bank accounts. They don't know what the bills are, they don't know where the
tax returns are. And so those are really big challenges
because there's massive fear and there's also
that beat yourself up feeling, I should have known better. Particularly if a woman is
a talented, educated, professional woman, she's
going, I really should have known better. I have
the skills, I know finances. I shouldn't have
put myself in this position. So that's one of them. The second one
is shock. If you thought your marriage was wonderful
and your spouse seemed attentive and loving, and all of a sudden he comes to you without any
warning and says, I have filed for divorce. I
want a divorce. And it's important to know that
when someone comes to you and files for divorce,
they have had long time to process their emotions.
If they come to you and drop the bomb on you,
you haven't had any time to process your emotions.
So both of you are reacting from a different point of view. And that Shock kind of creates an
even more intense emotional situation. So that's
one infidelity is always extremely difficult,
particularly if it's combined with shock.
JAMIE: In my world, if a client came to me and
said, all of a sudden my husband wants a separation,
we've been happily married, I had no idea. This
is completely out of the blue. I'd say you need
to hire a Pi. Odds are good there is a third party
involved here.
BEVERLY: Yeah, absolutely. So those, I think,
are kind of the top three that I would say are
challenges. Another challenge from another perspective
is the woman who has been divorced, who can't
stop thinking about her husband, can't stop thinking
about the life they had, can't stop thinking about
the dream of what her marriage was, can't stop
hating her spouse, is so bitter that she almost
needs a total emotional rearrangement to shift.
I knew this woman who had been divorced from her husband for eight years, and she turned
to him and said, you haven't suffered enough.
And she was so bitter and so angry that a few
years later she passed from cancer. And there
is science that shows that negative emotions do
have an effect physically on your body. And I
wonder if that didn't contribute to her cancer.
I'm not a medical professional, but I just can't
help but wonder.
JAMIE: Well, and if nothing else, when you remain that bitter for so long, you're just stuck and you can't move
forward and you can't enjoy life and you can't
enjoy new relationships because you're stuck.
BEVERLY: And think about it this way. If you are
negative and you are talking about it or even
just that you're negative, who's going to want
to spend time with you? Your friends will walk
away. No man's going to want to be with you. So
you can either change that thinking and have a
wonderful life, or you can live your life the
rest of your life feeling bitter. Do you want
on your tombstone for somebody to say, I had a
wonderful life or I hated him?
JAMIE: Right, exactly. And that's a choice you
have to make.
BEVERLY: Yeah, it is. And sometimes people are
so stuck in blame that they don't accept their
part. I call that the victim mentality. I'm not talking about domestic violence
or an actual victim. I'm talking about when somebody
holds onto and continues to blame everyone for
their situation, then that lets me off the hook
from doing anything about myself.
JAMIE: Right. We see that a lot.
BEVERLY: Yeah.
JAMIE: So we've talked about the challenges that
clients face. Do you have any success stories
you can share from your years of coaching?
BEVERLY: Oh, absolutely. I have one woman that
came to me just all confused. She thought she
wanted a divorce. She didn't know she wanted her
husband back, and yet he wasn't the kind of man
that I would recommend for anyone. And so it took
us time for her to process her thinking. Now,
one thing that I think is important to know, and
I'm sure this is true for you, I am not pro divorce.
Divorce coaches are not pro divorce. We would
love to be put out of business so that everyone
would have a happy marriage, but when you can't,
that's when you need help. And so we worked her
through the process. She also had spent her whole
marriage taking care of him. So she was actually
more like a mother than a wife, to the point that
the husband never had a job, never contributed
to household chores, and had mental issues, and
yet she felt responsible for him. And so one of
the beautiful things that came out of that was
her realizing she wasn't his mother, she wasn't
responsible for him. She had to let him go, even
if it meant that he was going to hit bottom and
be unemployed and whatever. She had to let him
have his own life to the point she came out a
beautiful, independent, enlightened, happy woman,
that her life was hers. Her life wasn't living
through taking care of him. That was just a beautiful
experience. And another one was that as we talked
about a woman that was horribly stuck in negativity,
in blame and bitterness. And while it took us
a good while, she was able to start looking at
herself, becoming more self-aware, taking responsibility for her life and actions so
that her life was beautiful and fulfilling afterwards.
And then there's always the woman going through
divorce that if she hadn't had the work, probably
would spend twice as much on legal fees as she had doing the work. That's one benefit. But the other benefit
was she came out being able to civilly co parent
with her ex.
JAMIE: That's wonderful. I love hearing all of
these positive stories. I mean, yeah, people don't
always want to be divorced. They haven't asked
to be divorced. Sometimes it's just dropped on
them, like you mentioned earlier. But to hear
that they're able to understand that they have
an issue that they need help with to get the help
that they need, and then that they're able to
thrive through the process, I love that.
BEVERLY: Yeah. And one thing that's happening
that I'm seeing a lot of is they say that for
people over 50, the divorce rate is tripling.
And there's a whole unique set of circumstances
surrounding somebody in that situation. And there's
so many women that if they don't have someone
looking out for them, suffer really big financial
consequences. I heard that there's actually an
increase in homelessness of divorced women. So
having an advocate, both legally and emotionally
and educationally, can help them perhaps come
out of it with less damage.
JAMIE: If you could only share one piece of advice
with someone going through a divorce, what would
it be?
BEVERLY: Put your emotions in that box I talked
about. Put them in the box, put the lid on and
lock. At any time you're interacting about the
divorce, then when you take them out, realize
that what you've done is a major feat and that
you should reward yourself and stroke yourself and praise yourself for being able to do
that. You will be able to look back on your divorce
and not necessarily be proud of how you handled
it, but feel good, feel that you were your best
self as you went through it. So put those emotions
aside when dealing with it, and then have somebody
to help and support you through that process,
because you don't have to go through it alone.
JAMIE: That's wonderful advice. I mean, my clients
that struggle the most are those who are not able
to take the emotion out of it, and they're not
able to make good decisions about their money
and their children. And so to the extent that
they can put those emotions in the box, I think
that's great advice.
BEVERLY: Yeah. Now, it takes practice. It's not
something you can just boom do. But again, like
you said, baby steps. Question of baby steps in
growth.
JAMIE: Yes, baby steps are absolutely necessary,
and they're great for helping people avoid paralysis
by analysis. I see folks out there, too, where
they're trying to evaluate every single possible
thing that could happen in their divorce a year
from now, two years from now, and then they're
stuck and they can't make any decisions for today.
BEVERLY: Yes, absolutely. And then I also heard
there's some complexity. I think the word narcissist
is thrown around so much that it's not necessarily
factually true. But if you are in a situation with a narcissist, I heard that those divorces can
take eight to ten years to resolve. So you definitely
need help in that. That would be incredibly expensive.
JAMIE: Oh, for sure. Those are definitely some
of the toughest cases that I have seen are where
the opposing party is actually diagnosed with narcissism. I mean, it's on a spectrum,
right? Exactly. We all have a little bit of it,
but for the folks that are truly diagnosed, dealing
with that person on the other side of a divorce
is extremely difficult.
BEVERLY: Oh, I'm sure I can't even imagine.
JAMIE: If one of our listeners is looking for
help from you and their divorce, what is the best
way for them to get in touch with you?
BEVERLY: Well, on my website, which is herempoweredivorce.com,
you can sign up for a free consultation, which
is the best way to explore, or you can email me
at beverly at her Empowered divorce. And you can
also listen to my podcast by going to my website and clicking on the podcast tab. And guess who's going to
be a guest? Jamie.
JAMIE: Oh, yeah, you can't miss that one.
BEVERLY: Yeah, absolutely.
JAMIE: Well, thank you, Beverly, for joining us.
BEVERLY: Oh, thank you so much for having me.
It was a true pleasure.
JAMIE: Thank you all for listening. If you like
this episode, be sure to follow the show wherever
you get your podcast so you don't miss. The next
one. While this information is intended to provide
you with general information to navigate divorce without destruction, this podcast is not
legal advice. The information is specific to the
law in North Carolina. If you have any questions
before taking action, consult an attorney who
is licensed in your state. If you are in need
of assistance in North Carolina, contact us at gaylorhunt by visiting divorcestuff.com. I'm Jamie Davis,
and I'll talk with you next time on A Year and
a Day.