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An 11-week podcast designed as a companion resource to the Core Series at Chapel Pointe Church. Through deep theological conversations with pastors from our church, our goal is to help you build a deeper understanding of the core truths of Christianity and apply them to your life. From the Bible and Jesus to salvation and the church, our prayer is that you don't just grow in knowledge but that you gain a deeper appreciation for the love, grace, and movement of God in your life. For more resources, visit chapel-pointe.org/core-series.
00:00:00 Speaker: Thanks for joining us for the core podcast. I'm really excited about today's conversation because we get to dive into a mystery, something that on this side of eternity, we're trying to explain and understand. And so have Ramsey, who's going to be our Granville worship leader, joining us and Pastor Tyler. And again, this is an opportunity for us to take a little bit deeper dive from Sunday's content. As Pastor Joel opened the Word of God, and we began to see, uh, who the Trinity is, who this God is that we get to worship, and the God who has redeemed us, restoring us, and is worthy of all of our praise and worship. And so I really just want to start there. Uh, guys, I'd love as you think about the idea God in three persons, the Trinity. What does that do for your hearts? How does that stir worship for you personally? You know, I love what Joel said even yesterday. So the Trinity is a biblical reality about who God is and his love for his children. And so I, I think about that personally. Whenever I think about God, we often quote that about Tozer. What you think about God is the most important thing about you. I think that's obviously the most true whenever we're talking about the Trinity, to recognize that whenever I think about God in his triune nature, that there's a reality that God has been in a perfect, eternal relationship with himself, and how that then flows out into all that he has created, that God is love, that there's a nature of who he is. And whenever I begin to think about that and meditate on that, it begins to shape and recognize that his love, who he is, is never changing. It is always the same. It is always constant. God is. He is predictable, known, and that we have this great assurance of who God is. And that just, I think, gives confidence to my relationship with God. I think it also gives clarity to be able to go, okay, I'm not just on a whim going, man, I hope God's in a good mood today, that there's a confidence and a clarity that we get to live in and have a relationship with this God that I think shapes the way that we're called to live out our lives as followers of Jesus. What about you, Ramsey? When you think about God and you think about Trinity, what are some of those thoughts, feelings, emotions that are stirred in you? Yeah. Uh, I wrote down a similar quote that Pastor Joel said yesterday. Uh, he said, understanding the most you can of the Trinity will help you process how much the heavenly father loves you. And I think that that is something that's been shaping me as I've thought about the Trinity is like a loving father. He loves me. He created me not because there was this hole that he needed to fill, but because of an overflow of love amongst the Trinity. And I get to experience it, that it's his steadfast love that doesn't change depending on, like you said, on what I've done, but it's a choice that he's made to love me. Would you guys say, when you think about the idea of Trinity, is this something that a new believer like we should begin to understand and comprehend this. Like the moment we became a Christian? Or is this something in your journey that you guys have grown in this idea, this conversation, because there's this truth, there is God. And what I'm hearing both of you say is knowing God and His love is changing my life, or that probably trying to summarize what you are saying. Um, but my thought is this is we grow into this deeper understanding of this Trinitarian God, this nature that we're going to continue to unpack. But would you guys do you have to know it from the get? Or is it something you grow in affection with? Yeah, I, I, when I read the scriptures, I can't help but think the scriptures are God's way of, of us getting to know him like he wants a relationship with us. And relationships take time. Like even our relationships, as we get to know each other, they take time. And so I think that is purposeful that as we continue to grow in our Christian faith, after an understanding of God, that our understanding of the Trinity also grows and deepens, and it's probably never complete. Yeah, yeah. I think I would add on to that though, this level of like the, the, the baseline, the foundation of the truth of the Trinity is an essential part of what it means to be a Christian. So understanding that aspect is so vital. But yes, for anyone who's a new believer to be able to go, oh, I've got the Trinity figured out. I mean, I think part of what we're saying here today is to go we understand aspects of the Trinity, what has been revealed to us, but there is also a greater mystery and wonder and worship that is welling up in our own hearts as we think and meditate on it. But for a new believer. Yeah, they absolutely should be understanding some of the foundational aspects of the Godhead, that those are key aspects of understanding salvation, understanding who God is, our relationship with him. Those are all core aspects that to be a Christian, to be a believer. Yeah, we've got to have them in there, but they're not going to be fully baked out at a four week class to go, hey, you've got it now. You just, uh, put your faith and trust in Jesus Christ. Hey, you'll have this figured out in a month. Like, it is something that is growing throughout the course of a lifetime. I love that idea. Like, even if we just kind of full stop this conversation right there, that we will not completely understand who God is on this side of eternity. And maybe not, maybe not fully on the other side of eternity. I'm even reminded, like, you know, The Last Battle and The Chronicles of Narnia. C.S. Lewis said, like an eternity is further up, further in this ever like growing understanding and experience with with God is kind of that imagination idea. Um, that's sitting in my head, but I'm reminded as well is Pastor Joel said on Sunday, he says our inability to understand God and the Trinity never means it isn't true or unbiblical. Um, because what you also just said, Pastor Tyler, is that in order to be a Christian, and I would hold that this is Orthodox Christianity, not again, our conversation around the core podcast, we're going to talk about some core orthodoxy makes you a Christian or not a Christian, but we're also going to talk about some things that make us distinctive as a local church right here in our community, in our region. And so this is a core orthodox issue, right, Pastor Tyler? Absolutely. Yeah. And I think what we're looking at whenever we talk about the Trinity is that we have to recognize that this is, I would say, one of, if not the main doctrine that if we get wrong, you are no longer a Christian. And I think whether that's the your view of Jesus or your view of God, whatever that might be, that if you start to go out of bounds of how it has been painted throughout church history, to be able to say, this is what it means to see God as triune, then you're going to step into either other religions or your own version of something that is outside some, some personally modified worship of God or whatever, which I think honestly, if I had to think about maybe for most of us in our kind of modern society, that's the greatest challenge that we face is that we, we take more of a spiritual buffet approach. So we go, I like this aspect of God and I like this aspect over here. And I like this aspect of being self-help. And I like this part of being my own God. And we try to merge them all together into our own kind of version of putting that together and saying, okay, well, this is my version of God. And so I think that the key aspect of we look at the Trinity is this invitation to be able to say, we're coming underneath and we're willing to worship and surrender our life to this God, to this triune God. Yeah. And I mean, it's such a, such a strong point. And it's, it's that the illustration, something can be true whether we fully understand it or not, because if we think we have to know it and be able to attain it or be able to control it, that actually puts us in the driver's seat. That puts us as the focal point. But what we understand through the scriptures, and maybe even a way to be reminded, is that these scriptures they build on. So the scriptures God has I don't have my Bible in front of me. The Bible is our foundation. This is now what God is revealing, and we're beginning to understand more of who he is as he reveals himself as father, son, Holy Spirit, and the rest of these, these doctrines and these distinctive doctrines that we are talking about, they just kind of build on that foundation. God has revealed himself through his scriptures. Uh, and as we get to know him, we get to learn more about him. And they are true regardless of what we know or don't know. Right. Um, what would you say? Uh, Ramsay Tyler to someone who's saying, uh, man, I, I'm just, I'm struggling with this idea of Trinity. How, how would you begin to move them further? Because it's not about knowledge. We would say the idea and our hope and our prayer for, for us is that this stirs heart affection. What would be kind of a step of invitation to go, uh, don't run away from the conversation. Um, don't be afraid of it. Like, what would you say to just the person's like, man, this just feels too complicated. I don't want, I don't want to lean in. Here we go. You go ahead. All right. I would say for me, where I would start here is to is almost like taking a step back a little bit in this aspect of going because I want to have a conversation around just theology in general, because I think there's this aspect of we all have a theology, you and I and every single person listening to this, you are a theologian. Yeah. Yes. you have a belief about God. Can you define theologian or theology? Just the the study or knowledge of God. Right. That you have this ability, that you are a theologian. You just have to ask, are you a good one or not? And so that is the thing, part of where we're going through this Core Doctrine series and even having these conversations is this invitation to go, you are operating out of a theology of God. Whether you recognize it or not. You have a view of God being Trinitarian or not, whether you know it or not. And so it isn't a question, I think, for people of, are you going to hold a view about God? It's what view do you hold? And so every single one of us holds a view. And so for you to be like, hey, I'm not going to engage in it. I don't want to, I don't want to wrestle. That's challenging to me. I want to say that the challenge is actually already in front of you, that you hold a view. You just have to recognize what view that is. And so I think part of this is this invitation into this greater conversation that we want to be people who are looking at evaluating and shaping our views of God around what we see in the truth of Scripture. Going back to last week's conversation. And so I think that whenever we're looking at this aspect of the Trinity, that is the starting point of this conversation that we have to begin with, is that you are a theologian and you have a view about God, and we just have to ask ourselves, is it in alignment with what Scripture has said is true? Yeah, that's so true. And so, Ramsey, you, uh, you get to disciple some tenth grade girls here. Uh, I can imagine this kind of conversation beginning to percolate in that space. Like, how would you navigate that? Yeah. Um, I think I would point back to the conversation we had last week. The Bible is inerrant. And so where you learn about God is in Scripture. So what are those passages that, um, talk about the Trinity that reference God being one? And, and how are you connecting those scriptures together? Because the Old Testament ties in with the New Testament. God is the same God over all of those years. So I would, I would encourage them to open up the scripture. I think often, especially with those girls and myself too. I want to know the answer, but I think the best, the best thing that we can do is to find the answer ourselves, to open up the scriptures to to dig in. Because if this is how we know God, we need to be in it. Yeah, I think that's what I would point them to. That's really good. And it's kind of like a good transition for us to go. There's an interesting thing when you look at the Old Testament and the New Testament, we probably begin to see more of an understanding in the New Testament of the Trinity. Um, and again, just a reminder, the word Trinity is not used in the scriptures. So this is us beginning to use language to help us understand what we're seeing in the scriptures. So, so if that can help you navigate, yes, people will say, well, why would you say God is Trinitarian when that's not even used in the Bible? This is us just stepping outside of it for a moment, saying, we're seeing something that is distinctly unique in the scriptures, that because the Old Testament and Deuteronomy four thirty five, it says to you, it was shown that you might know that the Lord is God, and there is no one besides him. So someone may read that passage and be like, what are you guys talking about? That there's three persons in this Trinity father, son, Holy Spirit. You guys are contradicting, uh, yourselves saying that there's one God, but there's three gods. Are you guys semi-intelligent people? Because you sound like you're, you know, you're contradicting one another. What would you guys say to that? Yeah, I think that there's this aspect where we go that we have to recognize that it is a, it is a unique challenge that I think that we recognize that you see all unfolded throughout Scripture of this kind of eternal nature of who God is, but also this personhood nature of who God is throughout Scripture. So you have the father, God the Father, God the Son, and God the spirit, that we have all three persons of God, but they are all one singular God. And yes, this is where I think whenever we get into this mystery element that seems unique or challenging, I've got young kids that they're going, hey, how exactly does that work? And I said, hey, here's the things that we know to be true, that God is one, but God is also three persons. And so we live in holding those tensions together. We don't we don't swing to one or the other, which is often where you see air and heresy throughout church history and throughout the age of people saying, hey, it can't. These two things can't exist. We see them both to be true and evident throughout Scripture. All throughout the Bible, you see both of these aspects of the Lord your God is one, but also you see the aspects of the personhood showing up, especially in the New Testament, in that nature. And so we live in that tension of going, okay, if both of these things are true, how do we knowing that God is eternal, God is and we are finite that we have to recognize, okay, I'm going to hold these to be true and I'm going to have to figure out in my mind how to put these together in ways that hold to what we see true in Scripture. Yeah. And this kind of reminder for us too. So if you think about the narrative of the scriptures, so the one true God exists in a community, then creates Adam and Eve and the world falls apart. Genesis chapter three. And the people that God created move that made this covenant through Abraham find themselves in slavery in Egypt in a culture that is polytheistic poly, meaning many and theistic gods. Right. Um, and, and the whole, it almost seems like this idea is God, the one true God is drawing his people out of this reality. No, I, I am the sole focus. Right. Uh, there, there is one God and there will be no other. And we see that even, uh, replicated in how the plagues roll. My understanding of the scriptures is, uh, those plagues weren't just really bad things that happened, but they're attacking the polytheistic view of the Egyptian culture. And so God is saying, not a God, not a God, not a God. I am God, right? And so that I feel like that's a, um, an interesting, uh, process for us. But then we get scriptures in first Corinthians eight six. It says, yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom all things and for whom all things exist, and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom all things and through whom we exist. So we begin to see this Old Testament and this New Testament. This picture begins where there's one God. And now New Testament, we're beginning to see even Jesus himself says, the father and I are one, so help me, smart people. Help me begin to make sense of this, this mystery. How is one two things? And and how is Holy Spirit even engaged in this in this arena? How would we begin to describe some of these, this mystery to the best of our ability? Yeah. I think to the best of our ability, we have to recognize that there is this aspect that whenever we look at the Trinity, we see this the we hold both of them true, right? So we hold that God is one. But we also recognize that God has always existed in relationship to himself. One of the things that I that I think shaped this conversation for me, just really practically, probably about a decade ago, was the book delighting in the Trinity. And one of the things that he spoke about in that book was if God. It says that God is love, which is first John four eight and it says, If God has all is eternal, and God has always been love, then if there is nothing else to love, then that cannot be true. So that God has always had to exist in this perfect relationship and harmony with himself for that to be true, that God is love by and in his own nature. That we recognize that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Spirit have always coexisted in a loving relationship that exists to to just glorify each aspect of the Godhead. But then honestly, out of that perfect harmony of relationship, everything else has been created that we recognize that all, everything flows out of this perfect triune relationship. So it is the foundational understanding of Christianity to be able to say, whenever we look at all of this, is existing out of God's own perfect relationship with himself. And to miss on that, or to dismiss that or to have a low view of that actually begins to undercut the very things that we say. We believe that we exist out of a deep relationship with God, having with himself. Yeah. I love it. Since you just mentioned it. So kind of quick shout out. So here's this book. I read it in seminary as well. And of all the seminary books that we're required to read. Now, this is not a super big book. This is one of the books that stirred my affection and my heart more for God, almost than any other book. I just remember it. It captivating my heart. And I remember reading it and just kind of this, oh my goodness, this is true. This is real. And, and I think that's the purest form of worship of that moment in encountering God. So this was a huge resource for me, even in seminary because we're studying and we're trying to master something. And this took me back to the awe and the wonder of a God who is beyond our comprehension, yet somehow still begins to make himself known to us. I mean, even this is my copy and I just still got highlights and markups all through it. Um, and Ramsey, you recently read this book. What was were some of your experience with it? I. Yeah, there was a lot of things in that book that that really made me stop and think. But I think the first thing and we were talking about this earlier, before we started this podcast was I think if someone were to have asked me, how do I view God? I would have said, oh, he's our creator. And that's true facts. But I also think from reading that book, I want to answer now I see God as a good, loving father. He created me not because he was trying to fill a hole of being loved, because he already had that within the Trinity. But he created me because of an overflow of his love. Mhm. He wanted us to experience the kind of love that exists between the Trinity. And so we get to sit in that. And even even wrapping my head around that, it changes how I read scripture now, like if I believe that James is, is true when he says that we have a good father who gives good gifts to his children. Okay? Yeah. That's true. That shapes my understanding of the Trinity and how how that functions. Yeah. And I think even just on a real practical instance, I think that whenever we study, when our minds and our hearts are, uh, we are encapsulated by the bigness of the Trinity, I think it makes us feel smaller, which is a good gift. That's a gift that I think that there's a level for us that one of the things that we maybe don't even recognize plagues are following of Jesus is that we, we view ourselves far too important. And when we look at the eternal nature of the Triune God that makes us feel appropriately insignificant. And I think that that is a huge aspect that actually there's freedom in that. I think there's freedom in so many aspects of the way that we live, the way that we believe, the way that we act. Um, I love the way that John Calvin starts his institutes where he says this, nearly all the wisdom we possess. That is to say, true and sound. Wisdom consists of two parts the knowledge of God and of ourselves that we have to start. Wisdom begins with knowledge and understanding of who God is. Yeah. And it's this aspect of we should be drawn to delighting in the Trinity, because that should give us a greater vantage point of who God is and our joy, our satisfaction, our longing should all be caught up in that rather than ourselves and the plights of our daily lives. Right? Right. Like his character. Yeah, exactly. Understanding his character. So. So talk to me a little bit more about when you see God. I was trying to look up a John Calvin quote that I just saw when I was flipping through there, because it kind of tagged on the idea that if we don't actually think about God in the Trinitarian form, we are missing so much about who God is. And so maybe I'll find that quote and we can throw it up a little bit later in the conversation. But I'd love for us to kind of dive into the scriptures a little bit. Whenever you think about scriptural passages, where do you see the Trinity at work in the in the scriptures. And so I'm going to take the first one just because I can in this moment and get it and feel like I sound smart. But you guys are here. The, the experts is, uh, in Genesis one. Yeah, yeah. Genesis one. You're welcome. I took that Genesis one. Thanks for taking that one. Yeah, I had that one open. Nice try. Try again. Um, in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. Right. And it says his spirit hovered over the waters. And there's so much research, there's so much conversation. So I'm not even going to pretend to dive deep into that. But that's one of those moments where, where I saw the Trinity first at play, that God, the Creator, the father is at work, and then we see the spirit and you're like, well, where's where's the sun? Mhm. Well, if I do some other biblical work, my understanding of John one is in the beginning was the word, and the word was God, and that word is Jesus. And so that's a different place. Okay. So that's where I see it. But y'all keep y'all. Let's keep riffing. Colossians one fifteen where it says the son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities. All things have been created through him and for him. So we recognize that there is this Trinitarian aspect in the very creation that there. That is just a vital aspect. You don't get out of the very first chapter without being confronted with the reality of the Trinity being at work. Right? And so there is this. There's this unique factor, one God, but seems to be showing up in three unique and very distinctive roles. Um, what are some other scripture passages that you guys can think of when you think about Trinitarian work? I would go to Matthew three. You see the baptism of Jesus, that aspect of being able to sit here and say, you see Jesus being baptized to fulfill all righteousness, and then you see the spirit descending like a dove. And then the father also saying, this is my son in whom I am well pleased. And one of the things I love about that passage is, yes, you see the Trinitarian nature at work. I love the aspect that the father is well pleased in the son, and the son has done none of his ministry right there. There's, I think, a truth to that. There's such a thing I've pondered for years about that reality of of the father's love to the son had not been in that moment expounded upon because of, hey, you did the thing I sent you on earth to do, to do the will of me, right. Like it's in this very beginning to say, I delight in the son in this very moment. And I think that there's just such a joy and a picture of what we see in that aspect. Yeah, yeah. I think of John sixteen seven where Jesus is telling his disciples, hey, I'm, I'm leaving. But it is better that I leave so that the Holy Spirit can come and fill you the, um, yeah, better that I go that the helper can come, the helper, your companion. Yeah. And I love one of the things we're going to be diving deeper in the coming episodes where we're going to talk more specifically about the father, the son, and the Holy Spirit. And so we begin to see that. But I do want to draw one unique pieces is because and maybe even help define, I'm going to use our practical theology book that we told you guys about last week, uh, to help define this, that God exists as three distinct comma simultaneous persons the father, son, Holy Spirit. We also see that, right? Matthew twenty eight nineteen baptize in the name of the father, son, and the Holy Spirit. Uh, I love you and even how theologians use the understanding of the language there. It's not in the names of right. If someone to say, hey, could you do this in the names of Ramsey, Luke, and Tyler, that that's a plural, but we actually have a singular focus there in the name of the father, the son, and the Holy Spirit. So we're seeing Trinitarian work in the, um, the recreating of humanity, right? And following after Jesus core Christianity. To be a Christian is to know this. Right. Um, and so, uh, when we think about those definitions, we, we will talk more about father, son, Holy Spirit, but we want to draw a distinction here that every part of the Trinity has uniqueness and special features to them. So you just name the Holy Spirit as the helper and the son as the Savior, the Redeemer, God the Father as creator, and the sender, right of the son. So there's some unique roles and we think about personhood. Like we see that reflected. So a little bit of this is using some anthropology that no one is exactly the same. So we understand kind of this language personhood, but helping people realize that there is this unique factor of it. How would you begin to help us say and process that there is one God, but there's these different parts about him. How can we think biblically about that? I feel like I would turn that back on you because I know that you have a diagram job. Ramsey. That's well played. I didn't see that coming this way. But we'll play that. You would write out that you have written out to help. So I don't know if you. Yeah. So so if I had a whiteboard here, I would draw this, but but maybe I can kind of visually, when I think about the Trinitarian work of the unique factor is that God the Father creates and he sends the son, which is where we get some of this language, which maybe even Tyler, we can unpack in just a minute. Uh, you know, uh, he's the only begotten son. Well, how's Jesus still God if he's begotten as this the son this created even for Colossians one. You know, he's the firstborn of all creation. What does that really mean? But the father points to the son, and he has a specific task, right, to be the image of the invisible God, to show us that there is a way to live, that God created us to live, and he lives the perfect, sinless life that we cannot. Uh, and then you quoted it, Ramsey. Uh, Jesus tells the disciples, it's better that I leave. So that Holy Spirit comes. And what we know the work of the Holy Spirit again, we'll dive deeper into in some of these works in coming episodes is the Holy Spirit. He doesn't make it about himself. He's like, I'm here, I'm here. He says, no, no, no. I've come to reveal to you who Jesus is. And through the scriptures, he illuminates who Jesus is as the Savior, the Redeemer. And then we get Jesus says, you know, I'm the way, the truth, and the life, but no one comes to the father except through me. So he's not saying it's about me. It's about access to the father. And in doing so, we see this mutual love, self-sacrifice. They never want to be the place where the the glory ends. They point back up and around. They're like, I love the son with whom I'm well pleased. And the son points the spirit and the spirit back to the son and son back to the father. And that goes back to some of that nature that you guys are talking about. God is love and he exists. His love is seen in community because what is love if it's not experienced in community? Yeah. And I think, I think that's a reality. It's just such a it should in this moment, I think for us to be able to go, that should cultivate us a heart of worship. Right. So that's, I think the thing where this isn't a theology exam to get right. Yes, we want to be true and accurate and faithful and biblical, but there should be an aspect for us this we are worshipers, so this should be fueling our worship. This should be the posture whenever we begin to go, wow, this is who God is. This is the the nature and character of God. This should be shaping me as a worshiper of God, that I get to be able to see this and experiences and I get to to know not in full, but at least in part what has been revealed of understanding God and His triune nature. That should want me to wonder, to long after, to chase after. I want to know this God as much as I possibly can. And then in our response to show that love to others. Yeah. As as a father has shown that kind of love to us, we get to point back to the father with that kind of love, that overflowing love. Yeah. And so maybe kind of coming back to this definition. So God is one, right? There is no other. There is one God existing in these simultaneous three persons. One way that I've processed it is that God is God and essence, and it's displayed. It's experienced, which again, we can can begin to move into potential heresies here that I want to be really careful about. Um, is that's how my brains had to process it. But because I'm wrestling with passages like Philippians two that Jesus emptied himself, he poured himself out, but he can't empty himself of his godness because it's who he is, right? It is his nature. It is at that essence. But we see and experience God in these unique ways. And so maybe we can talk about some of those heresies that because this is a big topic of conversation after. In the beginning stages of the church and the and the apostolic work that the early disciples were doing, these were the big questions that people were rallying around to know, is this Christian or is this non-Christian? Um, and to double down, we are a monotheistic faith because the scriptures reveal that to us. So we believe there is one God, but there's this beautiful mystery of the Trinity. So I just want to double down on that. But what would you what are some of those ways that, uh, this can quickly move into heresy as we try to explain the Trinity? I think you just named one. Um, Arianism is one of those heresies that we can fall into where we can pick out a scripture like that and say, oh, Jesus emptied himself. He's not equal to God. I think that's one that we can often fall into. I don't we were just talking about this. I think, uh, Joel mentioned yesterday modalism, which is this aspect that, yes, it holds true to the monotheistic aspect that God is one, but that he exists. He takes on different aspects. At some point. He's the son, at some point, he's the spirit. At some point he's the father. To be able to say God changes his mode of his personhood, to be able to say he's not all three. At the same time, he has one at one moment, and then he moves into a different mode at a different time, whenever needed or necessary. And again, I think whenever you read scripture for either of those, we let Scripture interpret Scripture. You'll be able to see able to say, okay, well, that's incongruent with Matthew three and Jesus's baptism. That doesn't make sense because they're all present or that that isn't how I would read Genesis one. In light of other passages, we begin to see that where if you isolate a passage and say, hey, here's one thing, and I'm going to take what that says and then make that the trump card by which I exegete everything else, then you can end up in any of those heresies. But they are things that we have to be really mindful of, because I do believe that, uh, that the Trinitarian doctrine is the core doctrine of being a Christian. If you lose that, you do lose the Christian faith over the course of time, if not immediately. Right. So kind of just for clarity for some people, as we try to explain this, we are finite beings trying to describe an infinite God. And we were even talking about this, uh, before, before we started rolling was it's the idea of like holding a diamond and you begin to look at the different facets. And then Tyler, you double down on the idea. It's it's not even that we're actually looking at a 3D object, but we're in two. Yeah. So we're still not even seeing the full scope of it. We can begin to grasp that there's shades and there's nuance and there's complexity and there's depth to who God is. But we finite people trying to explain something of, of infinite worth it is it is literally unfathomable. Um, I put a lot of syllables in there. It's so unfathomable that you had a different syllable. That's how that's how it is. Yeah. Perfect. But that is the nature of it, right? Is that it? There is a level that we don't want to run too far, where we can't know anything about being true, about who God is and his nature. But we also don't want to run so far the other direction we go, hey, we've got it fully understood. We, we understand every aspect, every intricacy of it. And I think that that's the beautiful tension that we're called to live in, is we want to live underneath the truth of Scripture, where we see it to be true, right, right and good, and then where it calls us to worship because we are underneath Scripture. And also we are the finite creative creation, worshipping the infinite creator that we do want to let our hearts grow in in worship, to be able to go. And there are aspects of this that maybe I will not fully understand. And I think we have to be okay with that reality, right? And when we've used kind of this finite language, and maybe I'll kind of go back to like my like kid days in like Sunday school and people trying to explain this and wrapping our heads around is there's some illustrations that people have used, like water, you know, so H2O, this explains the Trinity, you know. Well, it's all H2O, but it gas vapor and liquid water and then frozen water that breaks down, right? Because that's modalism. Right. That that's explaining it as no, it's God, but it's a completely different state. What we're saying in the Trinitarian Orthodox Christian doctrine that God is God and simultaneously father, son, Holy Spirit that goes back if I if if you can, uh, we'll pull up the graphic that explains that the father is the son, and the son is the Holy Spirit. And it is not like there's that unique aspect of the Trinity, a Trinitarian image that we try to wrap our heads around. And I think that is a helpful way for us to think about it is and is not. But that doesn't make sense. It doesn't compute necessarily in our brains. What are some other illustrations or modes that we can drop a random parent resource here, like so tiny theologians has a, they have a podcast that's called T is for Trinity, and they do a wonderful job of walking through all of those illustrations and how they actually fall short of explaining the Trinity. But I think it's been valuable for me as I, as I walk through this with my kids to be able to go, wow, this is really challenging. But it, it does a good job of not shaming. But there are, but it does show the insignificance of those illustrations that maybe we've all grown up with and been familiar with, but I just think it's just a valuable thing if you're going and maybe even for you, if you're sitting here going, I don't know where to begin. Start there. Like start with that. It's geared for, you know, six to ten year olds, but it is And it is so good. They do such a good job of handling that. One of the things I'm glad you brought up that resource is because at the end of the day, what is the faith that we're invited to by Jesus? Childlike faith, a childlike faith, right? So a child doesn't want to explain a beautiful, sunny, windy day and why the kite is flying in the sky. It wants to experience it. Yeah. The joy there's there's no words other than watching it. Right. And I think that's sometimes why us as grownups, we look at kids. It's because we've lost some of that awe and that wonder. And yeah, well, we try to make it a check box. Like we try to understand it in its totality so that we can move on to the next thing. But I don't think God is asking us to do that. He's asking us to step into a relationship with him. And Pastor Joel said this Sunday, he said that our understanding doesn't lead to salvation. Faith does. Yeah. And childlike faith. It's not a check box. It's a relationship with him. I love that. So when we're thinking about, um, how we navigate this concept because again, this is, this is a make or break deal to be Christian or not Christian, we would be, um, as bold and as direct as saying, uh, in love and in grace to have a Trinitarian view that he is one God simultaneously, three other persons existing in perfect harmony, perfect community, perfect love. Uh, there are other faiths, other religions that people are trying to, um, negate that or trying to process that. When I think about, uh, you know, what's happening with Islam and Jehovah's Witness, uh, help, help our people navigate that conversation. Where would you begin to help us understand how to lead and step into that? Pastor Tyler? Yeah, I mean, I think how many podcast episodes do we have for this? However many. Yeah. So I think there's a reality though, of whenever you look at each one of them, they do break down around the issue of the Trinity somewhere. Because I think that's the thing. If you were to go to a Jehovah Witness and say, hey, Jesus is the Son of God. They'd go, great. Absolutely. Yeah, I totally believe that. But they do not believe that Jesus is eternal. They believe that Jesus was created. He was the greatest Son of God that has existed. And so there's an aspect of recognizing that what we believe about the Trinity does shape in each of these areas. Islam believes that Jesus was the greatest prophet, but he doesn't believe any aspect, that he is a savior or anything of that nature. And so there is maybe an affinity or even a welcome to go, oh yeah, I'd be okay with that, but not in the same way that we recognize that we are making a distinctive claim about what we believe about God, his nature, and ultimately what it means to view God rightly. That I think we have to recognize and we have to have a confidence in, to be able to approach those conversations with. Because it is true, because we live in a very much a tolerant society. And so the default disposition for every single person is, hey, you have your view about God. I have my view about God? Aren't we just all just a blind person touching different part of the elephant to be able to say, this is what I think God is and we recognize, no, actually, God has revealed himself that these are the truths of Scripture. When what happens when the elephant speaks? And we know that this is who he says he is. And so that's the nature of what the truth claim that we are making about God and His nature. And we have to recognize that to be true, and that anyone that falls out of the paradigm of orthodox Christianity is going to have a different, uh, an essential, different view about an aspect of the Trinity. Yeah. How have you seen that played out in conversations in some of your spaces? Ramsey, as navigating the kind of this broader, deeper conversation about the Trinity? Mhm. That's a great question. I think more often than not, it's, uh, disregard might be more of an aggressive word, but disregard of the Holy Spirit. Like we talk a lot about the father, we talk a lot about the son. But then like Holy Spirit, is he a power? Is he like, what is his role in all of this? And I think that's the conversation that we come back to even in like the songs we sing. Yeah. Um, I can think of one song right now that talks about the Holy Spirit as like the theme of the song. Um, but we just don't even have that many songs about the Holy Spirit. And so I think that's kind of where the breakdown happens in the realm that I work in is who is he? How does he work? How does he move? Yeah. Yeah. And so one of the definitely dive deeper on that specific aspect of it, but that's you were actually thinking about something like we have this, we elevate. Yeah. One or the other based on our preferences, our cultural upbringing, uh, where we are in that season of life, you know, the idea of father creator or, uh, Redeemer or even there are certain aspects of the church that highlights the Holy Spirit over other things, you know? And I'm even reminded sometimes that we, you know, I've heard it even joke, you know, that there's father, son and holy Bible. And so they ignore like that aspect of holy. So there's all these moments, but it's one God, one God divine in nature. And that's even like, uh, like some of the other heresies that come up around the idea of Trinity is it's, yes, we believe in these three gods and they're three different, three different divine natures. That's being polytheistic. That is multiple gods at the end of the day. And so people still like, I believe in the father and the son and the Holy Spirit as completely distinct individuals in that no, they're still linked up and nature and essence and this divine supernatural level. And I think that's something to be reminded of. Are we the church? Are we focusing on one aspect of the Trinity over the other whenever how are we leading, serving, thinking? And even Pastor Joel often said multiple times yesterday, are we praying, uh, to, to the God to, to God himself? Or are we highlighting just certain aspects of him? Because we often come and we're taught to pray this way, right? By Jesus. Our father, who art in heaven, hallowed be your name. So we're taught to direct our prayers towards the father. Uh, we are taught in our, in our culture, in Jesus name, we say these prayers. But then what about the Holy Spirit? Right? How would you kind of respond to that, that conversation, Tyler. And then maybe kind of begin to wrap, if we started with this is about drawing our affection, and I'm wondering if we begin to kind of lean back into this. There are so many resources, uh, systematic theology books that we can dive deeper into in these conversations. Um, but we have one goal in this moment is that our hearts would be stirred to know the one true God. Right. But, but how would you respond to some of those ideas? Yeah. I mean, I think that's even some of my own. I mean, I probably grew up in a more conservative church that would have practically not theologically, but practically operate out of the father son, Holy Bible. Like that would have been the nature by which we operate. The Holy Spirit just made us uncomfortable. We would be like those other people that were crazy in that vein. But what I've learned in my maturity as a Christian is the necessity of the Holy Spirit in my daily life, right? There's this aspect of asking the spirit to guide me, to lead me, to protect me. The Spirit's at work in me. And so to ignore the very aspect of God that dwells within me is a wild paradigm. To be able to go the Holy Spirit, the God's Holy Spirit, dwells within me. And I'm like, you know what? I'm gonna ignore him. I don't need to talk to him. I don't need to be listening. I don't need to have any promptings of that, of what the spirit might be leading me. I think what it does for us, I think of thinking about the church, is whenever we fail to have equal parts of our minds, affections, even study of all aspects of God, it's going to short circuit our ability to live in that right relationship with God. Because I think part of this is, is God is in relationship with himself. But one of the things we'll get to in some of these other aspects is that we are invited into relationship with him. And so we're invited into relationship with the whole entire Trinity, and that if we're going to live out as fully transformed followers of Jesus, we have to be people who are equally thinking, operating out of that triune nature in our relationship in a day to day life. If not, we're going to short circuit what God wants to do within us. Yeah, it's so good. So I may I want to be really careful because my, my hope and my prayer is to stir our affections for the God of the Bible who reveals himself. But as I, as I as I think about this idea, I can't help be reminded that we as people are created in the image of God. Right? And the Imago day. And one of the ways that we're called to love God is with what our heart, mind, soul, body strength. This idea of a. There's a. Again, this is probably be very cautious in how I'm saying this. There is a Trinitarian aspect to who we are, right? Heart. Mind. Body. And we're called to love God with all of that. And so I see this beautiful, like we see these fingerprints and these echoes of a deep, mysterious, supernatural, all inspiring God written across the universe and even written across our being itself, because it's from God that we are created right in Colossians one. He holds all creation together, and they're at work. And just thinking about the creation, thinking about the meta narrative of Scripture, thinking about the fall is the removal of the Trinitarian God and putting all these other little gods at play. And then I'm thinking about the resurrection, right? The death, burial, and resurrection. Father, son, and Holy Spirit are at play in that right? My father, why have you forsaken me? The sun dies a physical death. But something supernatural happens in the grave, right? Yep. Right. Spirit is at work drawing us forward, right? Drawing, drawing, drawing the sun out of the grave. And he's doing that same thing even here and now. And there's something beautiful and powerful about that. And again, I say all these things to just stir our affection, to stir our imagination, to stir our wonder, that a God that we serve is so big, so infinite, that he is worthy of our worship. And so that's really the invitation for us, is to be reminded that we serve a God, that we get to pray to one God who exists in three persons the father, the son, the Holy Spirit, and they they are at work. He is at work in our lives. And so that's our hope. And our prayer for you is that you would fall in love with a God who loves you. Mhm. He loves you and is making himself known. And he's inviting you into this deep, abiding relationship and the mystery. And so we love you. And we'll see you guys in the next conversation. See you later.