Defining Hospitality

This week, Dan Ryan sits down with David Shove-Brown, architect, design leader, educator, and partner at //3877, to make the case that the most powerful thing you can put on your business card isn't a title, it's a philosophy. A firm co-founder who launched his practice in the middle of a recession with a newborn at home and a best friend from college as his only business partner, David has spent 15 years proving that relationships aren't a strategy, they're the whole game. David isn't just building great spaces. He's building a firm, a community, and a life worth writing about.

About the Guest: 
On this episode, Dan Ryan sits down with David Shove-Brown, partner at //3877, an architecture and design firm based in DC and New York. David has spent 15 years building a practice and a reputation, on the belief that relationships come before business. Whether he's mentoring students at trade shows, swapping proposals with competitors, or just holding the door for a stranger, he moves through the world the same way he runs his firm, like every person in the room matters.

Chapters:
00:51 Meet David
02:04 NEWH Mentorship Moment
03:53 Defining Hospitality
04:43 Community Over Competition
08:46 Networking Roots and Values
13:01 Relationship Building That Lasts
17:45 Balance Family and Firm
27:24 Design in the Public Interest
31:18 Losing a Mentor
32:46 Succession and Letting Go
33:56 Mentoring Through Mistakes
36:19 How to Find Mentors
38:01 Learning From Students
40:11 Community and Collisions
42:25 Craving Certainty Forward
48:25 Startup Stories and Growth
50:07 Looking Ahead and Wrap

Quote of the Show: 
"Networking always had this underlying idea of sales, we flipped it. For us, it's really relationship building." - David Shove-Brown

Building a hotel, brand, or guest experience? Reach out to Dan on LinkedIn or hit reply on the Substack to share what you’re working on.

Links:

🏨✨ Defining Hospitality is Sponsored by Berman Falk https://www.bermanfalk.com/ - Check out their impact page! 🌍🌱 https://www.bermanfalk.com/impact/ 

Ways to Tune In: 

Creators and Guests

Host
Dan Ryan
Host of Defining Hospitality
Producer
Serena Johnson

What is Defining Hospitality?

Welcome to Defining Hospitality, the podcast focused on highlighting the most influential figures in the hospitality industry. In each episode we provide 1 on 1, in depth interviews with experts in the industry to learn what hospitality means to them. We feature expert advice on working in the industry, behind the scenes looks at some of your favorite brands, and in depth explorations of unique hospitality projects.

Defining Hospitality is hosted by Founder and CEO of Agency 967, Dan Ryan. With over 30 years of experience in hospitality, Dan brings his expertise and passion to each episode as he delves into the latest trends and challenges facing the industry.

Episodes are released every week on Wednesday mornings.

To listen to episodes, visit https://www.defininghospitality.live/ or subscribe to Defining Hospitality wherever you get your podcasts.

DH - David Shove-Brown
===

[00:00:00] What I do is inconsequential. Why I do what I do is I get to shorten people's journeys every day. What I love about our hospitality industry is that it's our mission to make people feel cared for while on their journeys. Together, we'll explore what hospitality means in the built environment, in business, and in our daily lives.

I'm Dan Ryan, and this is Defining Hospitality.

This podcast is sponsored by Berman Falk Hospitality Group, a design-driven furniture manufacturer who specializes in custom case goods and seating for hotel guest rooms

Dan Ryan: Today's guest is an architect, design leader, and educator. He's a partner at an architecture and design firm leading projects across residential, commercial, and hospitality spaces.

He's received multiple architectural awards, including recognition for work in the public interest. He's a partner at 3877. Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome David Shove Brown, or as I like to call him, [00:01:00] DSB. Welcome, DSB.

David Shove-Brown: Thank you, sir. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it immensely.

Dan Ryan: I want... Uh, f- I, I'm so happy you're here as well, and I want all of our listeners to know that your, your partner, Dave Trotz, was also on many moons ago. And I remember one of the fondest memories I have about, um, my conversation with him is we do an alignment call with e- every time I have a guest on.

And I remember the alignment call with him, I was skiing and I sat down on the side of a hill, like on the slope, and I had the thing from my phone. I was like, "Oh, this is the new world." So, uh, so that's number one. He was w- he was in the office working, I was skiing, number one. Number two, I've wanted to do this conversation with you for a really long time, and I know we've talked about it.

Um, but what really was like the impetus that I was like-- It was the real light bulb that I was like, "Oh my God, I really need to follow up," we were in Minneapolis. It was an NEWH event. It must have been [00:02:00] more than a year ago. I don't remember exactly when. But You, your practice is in DC, right? But you are very involved in NEWH at the cor- at, like, the leadership level nationally.

And for those of you that don't know, NEWH is the hospitality network. And you were ferrying around a group of students from, I don't know, University of Iowa, University of Minnesota, University of wherever, um, maybe someone, some from Chicago and, and the environs of Greater Chicagoland. But you were taking time out of your busy day running a company, growing a business, mentoring people, but mentoring these students and bringing them up and redirecting them.

And you even brought me into it, which w- I found, like, very humbling, and say, "Hey, if you guys wanna get into hospitality, talk to Dan Ryan, and he's got this podcast." But you were really taking so much time out of your way to impact these young people, their [00:03:00] career path, as they're kind of deciding which lane to get into.

And to me, that just resonated and just warmed my heart, and I think all of us need to do m- a better job of that, so thank you for making me feel bad about my... or badly about myself. Um, but one of my favorite channels from all the podcasts that I do is from students, and I got a ton of feedback after that group that, in that pod that you were bringing around.

And I think that's a really awesome way to frame up this conversation because that was its own kind of hospitality as well, right? Taking these, these young kids and impacting them in that way. Um, but what does hospitality mean to you, Dave?

David Shove-Brown: It, it's that exactly. It's-- For me, hospitality is, it-it's a mindset. It's about, it's about humanity. It's about human connection. It's about being together, working together, y-you know, trying to help each other forward. it's the manner in which we work. It's, it's how we treat each other.

So for me, it's all, it [00:04:00] all comes back to the interaction of humans and humankind. And, you know, so my interaction and involvement with students is, is just a small, you know, portion of that mentality that to leave the world a little bit better than we found it. Um, and, you know, whether that's with students or, you know, with colleagues in the office or quite frankly, even our competitors or friends.

So y-you know, we're, we're constantly just trying to help each other out.

Dan Ryan: Which also brings me on to another thing that I'm just amazed by you and also many of your colleagues, and I won't name them all, colleagues and competitors. But one of the things, one of the areas that I've learned so much just about myself, about entrepreneurship, is through this nonprofit organization called Entrepreneurs' Organization.

And it, within it, I get put into a forum. I've been in many forums, and it's this confidential support group for entrepreneurs. It's not just about Hey, how do I run a business? But it's how do I deal with my business highs, business lows, personal highs, personal [00:05:00] lows, family highs, family lows? Because as awesome as we may all look from these podcasts and being world-facing, like we also have all of our own struggles as entrepreneurs and just as people.

And I think it's amazing that you've formed basically a mastermind with many of your competitors, but it's really about, I'll steal this from Shannon C., what that she said, but it's really about fostering community over competition. And that-- when she said that to me, I was like, "Oh my God, yes." And there's So many of us in these pods, but I think that many of us also don't know that these things exist and that we can all start our own.

So tell us a little bit about that, because again, it's all about impact and sharing and shortening others' journeys.

David Shove-Brown: my business partner, Dave Trotz, is really sort of the mastermind of this whole thing. Um,

Dan Ryan: Don't give him that much credit.

David Shove-Brown: right. Um, so this was my

Dan Ryan: Right.

David Shove-Brown: We realized-- So we're hitting our 15th [00:06:00] birthday here in a couple of weeks, and, you know, when you start from just two folks in your kitchen, you, you very quickly realize how much you don't know.

And, and, and that's not even talking about the stuff outside of architecture and design. That's just within our realm. And to realize simple things, you know, writing proposals, fees, how do you, you know, put offer letters together, things like that, that we're doing all the time, that we realized it'd be really awesome if we could share this with our peers and talk about it with our peers.

And so put together a group, and I guess there's probably 15 or so firms across the country, and we-- you know, they're sort of similar size, you know, maybe a little bit smaller, maybe a little bit larger, but it's, it's really... We try to do, you know, a quarterly call and get together at different events just to sit down and use it as an opportunity to say, "Okay, what are you dealing with?

What are you seeing? What's-- What are you going through?" Um, and then sometimes we'll even kick it back to, "Okay, we're [00:07:00] working on a proposal." We'll, you know, we'll pick up the phone and call one of the other and say, "Hey, here's what we're seeing, you know, cost-wise or timing-wise. What-- Do you think we're in the right ballpark?

Do you think we're too high or too low?" And, and use it as a sounding board. Oftentimes you're just-- you're working in this vacuum, and you have, you know, some idea what, what's out there, but it's really helpful to have that, know, other set of eyes and ears to give you some feedback. So, and it, it just makes life way more fun when you go to, you know, conferences and you s-- I mean, I just did a panel at HD last week and, you know, three out of the five folks on the panel are in this group, and it's like this.

It's just a conversation. It's not, you know, this very formal pa-- You're, you're just, you're just talking. And, uh, for us it's, it, it has made a world of difference.

Dan Ryan: what I appreciate so much about that is, okay, yes, I'm trying to furnish hotels. You're trying to design hotels. Our clients are trying to build hotels. But at the end of the day, in this business, and I would say other business-to-business businesses, [00:08:00] you're not going direct to consumer necessarily, but it's all about that relationship.

It's all about considering that relationship for the spaces that you're building as well. And also, I love how you said it's like you're in a vacuum, because so much of being an entrepreneur is having a vision and trying to figure out how to get there. But one of the most daunting things is that idea of a vacuum, and you don't-- oftentimes you just don't have a frame of reference, and you have to take a leap of faith.

And I also want to share with my listeners that in our alignment call, I found out that your dad wa- was a Green Beret. Now, I always had this image of Green Berets. You know, obviously they're special forces and really amazing humans at what they do. But the Green Berets in particular, one, one of their specialties, and I'm not an expert, is they go into a country or a place into a vacuum.

They talk to the locals, they create [00:09:00] factions, they train them, and then they make the sum of their parts-- or the whole becomes greater than the sum of their parts. And to me, that was really interesting because all these little threads that I'm hearing from you, it seems very s-- I mean, look, you're not a Green Beret, but it's the same kind of thing.

You're, you're trying to build these bridges to a place that you have an uncertain outcome. So I'd love to hear your thoughts on that and see, like, how you can connect those two.

David Shove-Brown: You know, to continue, like you said, pulling up the thread. So my father went from his military career into private security and then, you know, several steps and ended up in executive search and, you know, for lack of a better term, headhunting. And so it was through conversat- And my mom, you know, had a, a bevy of different careers, a lot of which revolved around people and the interaction of people.

And, and so it became very [00:10:00] evident to me very quickly that networking, business development, even just going to a random cocktail party and having conversation it, it's not human nature per se. You know, you've gotta practice it. It's, it's-- So, you know, as you, as we go back to that comment you made early on about working with students, I generally start off every conversation with the students of, "Look, need to learn how to talk about something besides politics and the weather.

So here's your opportunity to practice some of that," which is why, okay, let's go, you know, as we're walking around in any WH trade show, let's look for some, some familiar faces, some faces that I know that are, are supportive and, and helpful. And so as, know, as, as I approach life, a lot of it is that. I, you know, I make the

joke sometimes that it's not gonna say what hotels or restaurants I worked on on my tombstone.

It's gonna say that I'm a dad, hopefully I'm a friend, and I'm, you know, a good parent, whatever it may be. But all, all of [00:11:00] this is just sort of part of small pieces to the whole. And that's the thread for me of, of these human connections. And I'd, I'd really love to see our entire, you know, Firmshare cohort be successful.

I'd love to have 15 firms that are, you know, all doing great work and that are all really, um, you know, kicking ass and taking names, for, for lack of a better description, just because that's who we are. And that's, I think, what's really important about our industry is that support. And, you know, that-- for me, that started at home,

Dan Ryan: congratulations on your 15-year birthday or anniversary coming up. I'm-- It's-- That's quite a milestone, number one. Number two, for all those people out there that are thinking of starting a business, it's, it's a scary thing to do, and I think 80% of all businesses, new businesses fail after the first year, and then after the two years it's, it's even [00:12:00] more.

And you're lucky to have such an awesome partner and have such a great team in DC and New York. And where are your other offices?

David Shove-Brown: Uh, just, just DC and New York for

Dan Ryan: Just DC and New York. Okay.

David Shove-Brown: I, I'm gonna start one in the Mediterranean, but, uh, that's gonna be a few

Dan Ryan: Ooh. but take, do-- taking that entrepreneurial leaf, leap and building a team and going through, um, financial crisises, COVID, you name it. what's something that you learned along the way from the networking? Did you network, and I'm putting network in quotes for those of you who are listening, was that something that you knew how to do right from the beginning, or was that like a learned practice that you did, that you developed as an entrepreneur?

David Shove-Brown: the answer is yes to all of the above. I think, know, through my career before the firm in academia and with other firms Y- networking always had this sort of underlying [00:13:00] ideal of sales, and I wanted to flip it a little bit and, and Dave and I have flipped it a little bit to it's really relationship building.

you know, we have clients now that we've been talking to for 10 years that we're just doing our first project with. Just because you're building that relationship, you're building trust, you're building that ability to have conversation. Um, you know, oftentimes when we start a project, it's, look, something is going to go wrong.

It's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when, and we want to be the people that solve it. We're not, you know, it's-- we're not in the industry to point fingers and to blame and to say, "Who's gonna pay for this?" Or what have you. Yeah, and those are all pieces to the greater part of fixing it. Um, at the end of it, I, I wanna be sitting and having a beer with my clients, you know, talking about stories from the project, and that's, that just comes from the relationship building.

know that over 70% of our work comes from return client and direct client referral. [00:14:00] Wow.

And so for us, the biggest sales pitch is just doing good work and making sure that we, we do drawings that are as tight as possible, that are as complete as possible. you know, also being vulnerable to say, "Yeah, we, we missed that.

That's on us. We're gonna fix it, and we're gonna move forward. But, you know, we're, we're trying our damnedest and, and we're a, we're a part of the team."

Dan Ryan: So I've been in a sales/business development/I like relationship building capacity for more than 20 years now. And what's interesting, something you said really struck me in the sense that there's some people that you've been building a relationship with 10 years-- or for 10 years, and you have n- yet to do a project with them.

And I find that there's some, as I'm h- getting close to 20 years, that I haven't. And

Mm-hmm.

What's interesting, it's taken me 20 years to figure out that I could say, "Look, we've known each other for a long time. Can I ask you a question? How can we [00:15:00] work together? Like, what am I missing?" And then just being quiet and learning so much.

But so much about that relationship building is just being patient and taking that long-term view that, hey, if you build it, they will come. How do you balance your patience, but also the need to feed your offices and your team and just keep it all going?

David Shove-Brown: I think through that honesty that you were just talking about is, is having the conversation of-- Take COVID, for instance. Um, at the beginning of COVID, the-- one of the first moves that we made was we just started calling existing and, and past clients even, and just saying, "How are you?" How are you do-- Uh, forget the work thing, forget the project, forget your, you know, whatever we had done for you.

H-how are you doing? having an honest heart-to-heart conversation, putting, you know, [00:16:00] health, happiness, and, and welfare all above building, above brick and mortar, and using that as a, as a philosophy to move forward. So yeah, I mean, sometimes you have to have the honest conversation and say, you know, "Tell me why we didn't get selected for this job.

We worked on this proposal. We worked really hard. What was it?" Um, sometimes it's calling before the proposal and saying, "Hey, here's what we're thinking. Can we just talk through where we are and make sure that we're sort of aligned on scope and, and what you're expecting to see?" What I've realized in the last 14 years, 11 and a half months is it, it, it's taken a lot-- is good and listening is better.

Dan Ryan: Um,

David Shove-Brown: asking the question and absorbing what's, what's said to you so that you can, you know, not just check the box that you, you know, talk to the client about why we didn't get the job. No, let's really learn from it. Let's truly understand what we're doing so that we can become a better partner in the future.

Dan Ryan: [00:17:00] so okay, so if as we're talking, we're getting these different buckets to come up, right? So there's this idea of patience, um, community over competition, um, the idea of networking, also mentoring and engaging in just different organizations that maybe is not like a direct one-to-one, right? But you're a- actually helping develop the industry and the new, and the newcomers into our industry.

If you were to look at those three or four buckets I just laid out there, what presents the biggest challenge to you in the seat that you sit in?

David Shove-Brown: A balancing them all? I mean, 'cause then you, you throw in too that, you know, I've, I've got a teenage daughter at home who I'm teaching to drive, and therefore I, you know, have high anxiety. No. know, so trying to balance all of those things and, keep each one of them moving forward. So, you [00:18:00] know, saying, "Okay, you know, now's the time I, I'm putting on my NEWH student relations chair hat, and we're focused on the students for this one, and I'm gonna, you know, take that and run with it for the next few hours.

Okay, now I'm gonna shift to this thing in the office." I've, I've learned the hard way about trying to balance all of those things and, and realize You know, what's the hierarchy in terms of I need to, you know, complete some sort of task that I can hand it off to the next person and they can run with it.

They're not sitting around and waiting, um, still sort of seeing the big picture. So, you know, working with students is awesome because hopefully at some point, you know, those whatever half dozen students that I walked around when I saw you, that, you know, they're gonna apply for a job and they're gonna look back and go, "Okay, I met this guy, Dan Ryan.

Let's, let's reach out to him and see who he knows in, in Dallas or Los--," you know, and it's connection so that then that, [00:19:00] that whole thing then splinters outwards and they help the next person, and they help the next person. You know, as you're looking for hires and you're looking for teammates, um, quite frankly, some of the best people that we've, we've ever had here are through our quote-unquote, "competitors."

That, you

No.

Somebody's moving to the area or, you know, somebody's spouse is mo- when people understand who you are and what you stand for, I think that that is a great selling point. And the balance of all of those buckets, as you call them, is, is really important that, you know, we're gonna support designers.

We're gonna support, you know, who are in school. We're gonna support young designers who are at the firm. We're gonna support, you know, folks that are a little more seasoned that wanna, you know, continue to climb the, the, the ladder. So all of that is, is-- They're not-- Every day there, there's a disproportionate of, [00:20:00] of which one is more equal than others.

All, uh, all pigs are created equal. Um, but, you know, trying to balance that out and say, "Okay, I've got X amount of time in a week. How do I maximize

Dan Ryan: So...

David Shove-Brown: I, I work like hell to like, you know, yeah, we all do some work at home and on a weekend or, you know. But I try so hard to really focus when I'm here and then, you know, when I get home, I can, I can be husband and dad and, and friend and all of those things.

So,

Dan Ryan: And slam your foot into the passenger floor-- passenger seat floor to, as a, as a air brake.

David Shove-Brown: Takes a lot of strength not to reach over to the steering wheel sometimes, but, you know.

Dan Ryan: I love balance because as entrepreneurs, dads, um, just as humans, balance is a difficult thing to achieve, right? 'Cause oftentimes we're, we're choosing to do something at the expense of something else, and prioritization. But if you were to go back the for- uh, [00:21:00] 15 years, so like it's two weeks, we're two weeks before your founding day, right? So we're in a time machine two, two, uh, 15 years ago. How did you consider that idea of balance when you and Dave were Trying to figure out what the next step is to create this company that you're in. and and how has your relationship changed to maintain that balance over these past 15 years?

David Shove-Brown: Dave and I went to college together, so we've been bestfriends for 30 plus, almost 35 years. as we, you know, have, have started the firm and the firm , you know, I, I honestly think we've had, like, two arguments maybe. Um, and both probably my fault. Um, but, you know, it's, [00:22:00] it's communication. I mean, we certainly... COVID tested us, um, and tested our, our, our friendship. Um, but what we did to level set was started to have conversations where at the beginning of the conversation we said, "Okay, what's the goal?

What are we trying to accomplish?" you realize you're on the same-- You have the same goal. You know, sometimes you just have a, a little bit different road to take versus somebody else. So, you know, having that level set and realizing, okay, we're trying to go to the same direction, um, is really important.

We started the practice, um, in the middle of a recession, awesome, um, when I had a newborn at home, And yeah, who's now driving. Um, that's all the gray hair. And part of-- large part of my wanting to do this was to have the flexibility to go on [00:23:00] those field trips or, you know, go to the school play or be at the soccer practice or whatever it is, 'cause I, you know, I think back 100 years to when I was a kid and my folks did all that stuff.

this-- They managed to find me pre-cell phone. Um, but you know, being able to go to those things, I didn't, I didn't wanna miss out on any of that stuff. And so as we started talking about flexibility, was being able to work my time and, and sometimes not in a linear fashion, but in a fashion where things get done and they get done well, still able to do those, those with my family.

And, we try to then translate that to the office and say, "Look, wanna support you." We've got, you know, a bunch of folks with... We had, like, this baby boom in the last couple of years and, it's awesome. Bring your kid to the office. Bring your dog to the office. You know, we-- [00:24:00] All of that is, is so important, um, and it's really sort of the, the heart of what we're trying to do.

Dan Ryan: okay, so that's for you and Dave maintaining balance as entrepreneurial partners through the past 15 years. And you could a- actually even go back 35 years to when you were in college, right? Obviously,

David Shove-Brown: Yep.

Dan Ryan: A, there's a track record, there's a trust, You just have a great foundation to work off and build off, and it's quite evident that you've been successful at doing that d- no matter what the world throws at you.

Now, if you think about-- And I, I heard you, you did mention with attracting new people to come in and, and also sharing that idea of balance with them. But let's pretend you have a new project and it's fast and furious, you're kicking it off, or you're trying to-- It's your first project with, let's say, one of those not 70% repeat customers.

How do you let them know that you're taking a balanced approach, but also hearing what's important to [00:25:00] them and executing? Like, like pretend you're a new, a new client that you haven't worked with before. How do you get them into the 70% bucket of a re- as being a repeat customer or client?

David Shove-Brown: It's funny, Dave and I share an office, which I guess is, is odd. You know, we tour people through and they're like, "You guys share an office?" And we're like, "Yeah, you know, we're still trying to figure out the best sound attenuation in the office, but, you know, we share an office."

you'll hear a lot of times from either one of us when we're on the phone, "I'm not trying to be the bad guy here." Um, you know, but we're trying to be honest with people. We're trying to tell them how much things-- how much construction costs, how much time things take, how long a permit takes. You know, we're not trying to sugarcoat it to get the job and then get, you know, bitten by it in six months or a year.

We're trying to lay the groundwork for, for authenticity right from the beginning and say, "This is-- Look, here's, based on our experience, what we know, [00:26:00] and here's the information that we bring to the table. may not love it. You may not love, you know, the cost of your project, but we're gonna talk about it early and often so that we can address it and not just hope at the end of it that we come out okay."

it's, it's having those honest conversations of what, what's the goal? How are we, how are we gonna get there? Um, and, you know, sometimes that, that comes around the family discussion or, you know, I, I don't travel on my kid's birthday. Like, it's a weird thing. I, I don't wanna miss that. And so I'll-- I've told clients and they're like, "I can't make it.

I cannot be there. I can do the week before, I can do the week after, but, you know, this is something that's, it's really important." And I will say, I think only once did I get pushback, Every other time people are like, "Absolutely. That-- Hell yeah, go do that." And I think it sets a [00:27:00] groundwork for realizing that we're all people outside of the, the office.

Um, and I think it just makes for better work.

Dan Ryan: okay, so now going on to the work, and obviously you're building these relationships with pers- prospective clients, trying to get them into that 70% bucket of repeat business, which is amazing, and I think every business should be jealous of that or strive for that. Um, I wanna pull on the balance thread again, because in your intro I said that you have received recognitions for work.

in the public interest.

Tell us about those projects and how those types of projects bring balance to the firm and then to yours and Dave's partnership as well.

David Shove-Brown: in academia for, I guess, seven or eight years created a class that was essentially a functioning architectural firm within a university setting.

And, you know, based on-- And there, there's other universities that are, are doing similar, that are, [00:28:00] you know, sort of running nonprofits for, for individuals or groups that can't afford design services or don't know how to, how to engage design services. And so, it started, uh, by creating a course with a couple of, um, colleagues and going after projects that were community-based projects that we could just do better.

And so, um, started with that and started to instill in our own students like, this is important. Yes, having a job is important, but building a library for an elementary school is really important. Um, you know, think about what that was like when you were a child as that sort of escape of reality, going to the library and sitting in that, you know, disgusting vinyl beanbag and, and reading a book for a period or what

Dan Ryan: Yeah, but it had a certain soothing And...

quiet to It-- that I loved, you

David Shove-Brown: It-- Absolutely. Like

Dan Ryan: Mm-hmm.

David Shove-Brown: That sort of cocoon that [00:29:00]

Yeah.

And, and while you were sitting there and those moments that are really important. I-- When Dave and I were in school, we had just amazing professors that really, truly cared for we were as people and the work that we were doing and the, the bigger picture of architecture and design and giving back.

And so trying to, to keep that going and, and It doesn't always work. You know, sometimes it's a matter of, look, w-we don't have time to, to volunteer this. We can, we can make a donation or we can do something. But even during COVID, we would have, you know, the standard Zoom happy hours that I think every company did.

we had a lot of time where we would say to each other how, yeah, it sucked, but we were still lucky. were, we were, for the most part, healthy and happy and, you know, moving forward, and we were a [00:30:00] lot better off than a lot of people. And so we tried to just continue to remember that. Um, and, and it just helps keep things in perspective

that, what we do is important.

It's not the end-all and be-all to life.

Dan Ryan: if you use that datum of balance again, is there an experience over the course of your career or since you went and started on your entrepreneurial journey where that idea of balance or working on something to achieve balance changed the way that you approach architecture and design now?

David Shove-Brown: Um, I think one of the things that I, I talk about with students and I talk about with, with our team is mentorship, is having a mentor or having multiple mentors that can help guide. Um, so you know, I have, I have a couple of mentors. We-- Dave and I have a couple of mentors for the firm that we, we look to.

Um, and a couple years ago, I lost one of my mentors who was a dear, [00:31:00] dear friend. And that to me was... It was strange because I had this-- I found out on a-- I was-- had just ordered a pla- boarded a plane, and I, I really struggled thinking, "Oh my God, who am I gonna-- Who's gonna be my mentor now? Like, I got a job opening.

What's gonna happen?" it took me several days to realize instead of trying to replace my mentor, of trying to be that person for the next designer. And so, um, I, I have this, you know, once a year or so, I write my, you know, Jerry Maguire-esque email to the office when I have some sort of brain

dump, but you know, being able to say, "Look, guys, I'm here. I wanna... I've got some experiences. Some of them are really good, some of them are bumps in the road, but I'm here to talk. I'm here to mentor, I'm here to help." And so that, that opened up a lot of [00:32:00] really great conversation.

Dan Ryan: Hmm.

David Shove-Brown: sort of a, a, a pivotal event. Um, I think, you know, as we've grown and brought in new people, you know, it's hard when you start a practice of thinking, you gonna, how are you gonna end it?" You know, what's your succession plan? You don't talk about succession plans when you're, you know, just starting.

you know, we started to hire people, and we just have such an awesome group of humans here. from day one, we always, we knew that we wanted to have the firm continue on, which is why there are no names on the door. so, you know, as we started to hire and bring in really talented people, um, starting to let go was a really hard thing to do.

It's a really hard thing for, I think, everybody in our profession. But letting go and letting some of the, the newer [00:33:00] folks really take over and run with things, you know, that's been so pivotal to our growth because I'm not, you know, I'm not micromanaging and going, "Let me see that document." You know, just man, run with it.

Go.

Dan Ryan: how do you think mentoring has helped you learn how to let go?

David Shove-Brown: you know, mentoring is, is giving people guidance, but not, not telling them how to do it. You know, the old teach them to fish. you know, getting people to realize that, that making a mistake is okay. You know, remember, remember teaching, you know, when your kids started to, to color in, in the coloring books and, know, there's a moment when it goes from like mad chaos to trying to stay within the lines, and there's that time when they go out of the lines and it's like, "Oh no, I broke the rules."

And you go, "No, man, this is... the rules is the fun part. Like, it's okay to screw up. Now make it into something." And so mentoring [00:34:00] encourages people to learn and grow, but also screw up and, and make mistakes and brush it off and move forw- We are not perfect, man. Like, it's okay. It's okay to, to screw up and to, to stumble a little bit, and brush it off and you go, "Well, I'm not gonna do that dumb mistake again.

I'm gonna, I'm gonna learn from it and, and move forward." So, you know, mentoring is, is just sort of guiding in a direction and, you know, letting, letting that person go and, and start to create their own way of looking at the world

Dan Ryan: I appreciate th- that change in thinking of... It, it's always amazing how you get bad news, or not-- I, I don't know about you, but, like, I always get bad news, like, right as I'm boarding a plane, and I can't leave, and then I just kinda have to sit there with it. I have really-- That just happened to me leaving Vegas also.

It's crazy. But, um... Last week. But if... Th- [00:35:00] there's something about that sitting that causes us to, like, it's almost meditative, sit with ourselves. But the shift that you had of, "Oh, who's gonna be my next mentor?" To, in a way, paying it forward. Not in a way. Clearly, "Okay, I'm gonna pay this forward and take everything I learned and apply it to others."

But I also find that many people, as much as they want to mentor or be mentored, there's a speed bump there. There's a s- friction point. Um, and they don't know how to take that first step or, or ask. In your experience, and from your feeling, what's the best way to start being a mentor or asking to be mentored?

David Shove-Brown: I, I think it starts by finding people that have similar attitudes and similar philosophies. And, and I don't mean, you know, design styles or things like that. I d-- I mean, just the way in which [00:36:00] people look at the world or look at way that they work and the way that they treat their teams and the way that they, they treat the people around them.

Um, and, and starting there and, and it's, it's a very... It's humbling to realize that so much we don't know and, finally being able to raise your hand and ask for help, um, I think is a hard thing to do. But when you do it, you realize how much further you can go. So, you know, being able to say, "Okay, I'm, I'm, I'm pretty good at what I do.

How can I, how can I do it better? How can I be more efficient and more effective for my, my team and, and the people around me? Um, what are the things that I can..." And y-your mentor doesn't always have to be the older version of you. You can have-- You can learn from, from people of all different ages [00:37:00] and, and philosophy.

it's amazing what you can learn if you just of shut up and listen.

Dan Ryan: And that's where I wanted to go because Oftentimes there's, there's a formal mentor relationship corporately in some corporations, and it's, you know, you kind of have to subscribe and commit to a multi-year thing. But there's also just getting involved in your local trade organization, or in the case for you, the national NEWH platform, and mentoring all of these students.

But th- where I wanted to go with it was when y- when I saw you like the, uh, the Mother Goose with all the goslings in, in like in tow, right? And that's really what it was. It was-- And, and there was such a... Like, I could see your heart in what you were doing there, right? And, and bringing them around. What do you learn from all the goslings, right?

What do you learn when you're in that, from, in that situation with, [00:38:00] from the people who I, I like to call it rookie smarts. But in that case, in Minneapolis, what did you learn from that instance?

David Shove-Brown: it's so awesome. I mean, you travel a lot, so you, you do the same where you get to go and meet new people and see new places and interact, and that to me is the best part of it. So hearing the stories of people, you know, I, I'm, I'm thinking back to that trade show and, you know, we'll go and we'll

Dan Ryan: Yeah,

David Shove-Brown: students from, from

Dan Ryan: I, I-- We moved

David Shove-Brown: schools that tend to be a little bit more, um, commuter-based, that may be folks that are-- this is a second profession or, you

Connecticut

they took a, a gap or whatever it may

in the pandemic

those stories is

from

so fascinating to me of how they ended up in this world of architecture and design. And, um, I just, I-- man, I love that. I love chatting with, with people and, and just hearing some of their stories. And then quite [00:39:00] frankly, having the follow-up afterwards, you know, somebody reaching out over email or social media or what have you, and, and

New

the conversation.

The-- It's just, it's just awesome. I

York

this,

Dan Ryan: City,

David Shove-Brown: And again, we don't need to talk

and

but our

we lived

world is so incredibly interesting with people and their experiences and, you know, I, I would love to just sit for hours and just, and just hear what, what people's life stories are.

Dan Ryan: for a couple of years, I remember asking my daughter Annabelle, and just saying like, "Hey, what do you miss the most about living in New York City?" And she said, "Oh, Dad, you know, I miss it how we'd be walking and you would just talk to random people on the street."

David Shove-Brown: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Dan Ryan: it wasn't so much that I'm like some crazy guy that just wants to talk to anyone on the street I feel like we can all learn from every collision that we have [00:40:00] because each person is like their-- has their own connection to the network of whatever the, the world or the universe is.

And I just am genuinely curious. That's why I love doing this podcast so much. And as you were talking about that pod of-- I'm just gonna keep-- go with the Gosling metaphor. But the idea of some of those students who are commuter-based, where they're-- they know that they wanna get into architecture and design.

They're com- they're missing out on a lot of that community because they're commuting. And then I can imagine when they come into this hospitality design world, this sorority or fraternity of it's all relationship, and it's so kind of cozy that it must blow their mind. And, uh, so many people don't even know that this world exists.

David Shove-Brown: Well, and I, I talk about-- I talked about this at, uh, the NAWH Leadership Conference. We did a, a student session to kick the whole thing off, I was like, "You guys are, are going into [00:41:00] a community that is tight, friendly." And I was like, "If you didn't notice when you came in that all the professionals are hugging each other, like, that's who we are."

And,

Yes.

Think, I think there is certainly an, an element to my family that's like, "Could we just go on vacation somewhere where you don't know somebody? Like, could we just, like, not do all the dinner?" You know, 'cause it's-- you just meet such really awesome people along the way and, you know, I, I wanna go to their favorite coffee bar or coffee shop.

I wanna go to their favorite restaurant. I wanna hear all about these things. It, it's just, again, who our community is and what makes it really interesting.

Dan Ryan: 100%. And now as we're approaching your 15-year anniversary, um, and, and you're talking to your, your colleagues and your, and your community and your mastermind that you've built and what are you seeing-- Is there a shared [00:42:00] biggest need amongst you, your colleagues, and competitors right now?

David Shove-Brown: I think we'd all like a little more certainty in the world.

Dan Ryan: Yeah.

David Shove-Brown: I think there's just an exhaustion from uncertainty.

Mm-hmm.

Like, I, I think universally we thought, "Okay, we're gonna get through COVID, and that'll settle down." Well, then there was another... You know, it just sort of-- So it's like, I, I just-- I sometimes feel like we're some sort of boxing match where we're just spending all of our time, you know, bobbing and weaving.

And I just, I think at some point we just want a moment to breathe and all collectively go forward. And, you know, we spend time at some of our leadership meetings within the office, and we started off by saying, "Okay. We are only looking forward. The, the next hour is only how do we move forward and not looking back at, you know, something that went sideways or, you know, something that hap- like, we are only gonna be forward-facing.[00:43:00]

do we do that?"

Dan Ryan: Yeah.

David Shove-Brown: so I think it's just sort of an ideal of, of we're just kinda tired

David Shove-Brown 2: Okay.

Dan Ryan: that question. So...

um, I, I love the fact that you're, you know, at times just looking forward and looking to the future. But one of the things that I really enjoy doing also, once the dust has settled on something that went sideways, this time machine question where it's like, Okay.

listen, we, we figured out whatever that was.

We're on this new path. But if, if you had a time machine and you could go back to that moment before everything went pear-shaped, what would you do? What would you do differently?" And then just be quiet, then hear how that goes. 'Cause again, could be really, um, established and, um, formal way of mentoring someone, but it can also just be question and silence.

David Shove-Brown 2: [00:44:00] So I'm, I'm thinking of this conversation that there is no... I mean, certainly there are guidebooks for owning a firm, there are guidebooks for being a parent, but I have found myself more recently saying to people, including my child: "What do you need from me? What is most helpful for you at this moment? Is it for me, I can solve it?

Well, I can try to solve it. I can give you some advice, or I can just shut up and listen. What, what is it that is gonna be most beneficial for you at that point?" I think the thing that I wish if I could go back is relaxing on trying to fix everything, trying to solve it, and trying to make it better. And quite frankly,

Dan Ryan: [00:45:00] Totally. "

David Shove-Brown 2: It's okay if you don't fix it today or, or maybe tomorrow."

Or maybe it's, you know, maybe you got kicked in the teeth with something and, and going, "Okay, you know, let's brush yourself off. Give yourself a break and figure out a way to move forward," and doing it in such a way... I mean, we-- all of us beat ourselves up all the time, and we do it in places where, you know, like you said, you- whether you get bad news or you get that, you know, email that's- Somebody's angry or, uh, you know, we always tend to go to the worst case scenario when it could just be that that person had a really crappy cup of coffee that morning and just sorta, you know.

And so, um, trying to be gentle and understanding. You know, when you were talking about, you know, l- missing living in Chelsea, [00:46:00] you know, my, my kid sometimes gets embarrassed, um, by me talking to random people and, and doing that. But sometimes just holding the door for somebody, you have no earthly idea what they've gone through in their day.

So they may be at that breaking point where somebody just offering to carry their grocery bag is, like, the biggest weight off of their shoulders. And so sometimes those little things can just be as much of a fix as listening to all of their problems and, and trying to solve it. So sometimes it's just, just be there,

Dan Ryan: Yeah.

David Shove-Brown 2: be present.

Dan Ryan: And also, uh, and I, I, I-- the one thing I can hold myself accountable to on a daily, weekly, monthly, annual basis is how many collisions I have with people, right? And to me, every collision

David Shove-Brown 2: Mm-hmm.

Dan Ryan: for myself and for the [00:47:00] person I'm colliding with.

David Shove-Brown 2: Mm-hmm.

Dan Ryan: especially in a relationship business, the number of collisions I think is like the best predictor of what the future may hold. Because again, we're, we're kinda like writing our own script As we're doing this. You didn't-- 15 years ago, 14 years, uh, 50 weeks ago, you didn't have a script. You were just

David Shove-Brown 2: Right.

Dan Ryan: doing it, you know, on a wing and a prayer with Mr.

David Shove-Brown 2: Yeah.

Dan Ryan: I mean, that's-- it's,

David Shove-Brown 2: Yeah.

Dan Ryan: to, to think about that. And, you know, and then you can arguably say taken you 15 years to become an overnight success.

David Shove-Brown 2: Yeah, exactly. Well, I, the f- I think my biggest the biggest miss we have was I wish we wrote down some of the shit, quite frankly, that we went through.

Like, a-a-and not just, you know, not that we've had it any harder than [00:48:00] anybody else, but just, just funny stories and stories along the way where you're just like, "How did we pull that off?"

Or, "How did we..." Y-you know, I have this, I have this vision back to, you know, early on in COVID when, you know, they were talking about all these PPP loans, and they didn't know how it was gonna work, and nobody really knew. They just knew it was gonna go through banks. That was all the information we had. So Dave and I had this idea of sort of buckshotting the system So we had a day where we were bunny hopping each other to go to different banks and open accounts in the hopes that one of these banks would have

And so it was him in his car and me on a bicycle going through Washington, DC, going, "Okay, I'll meet you at this bank. We're gonna sign, you know, we're gonna deposit $100. We're gonna go to the next bank and deposit $100." And yeah, we lost a bunch of money and like, you know, 'cause we didn't keep it in there long enough or whatever.

But, you [00:49:00] know, it was just one of those things that as you look back, you're, you're fighting for your company, but it just, it was just kind of a funny day of, of doing, you know, anything and everything to, to make it work.

Dan Ryan: Yeah, it's like a, it's a whack-a-mole, right? You just, you don't know, and you just kinda have to be inventive with your time. Um,

David Shove-Brown 2: Yep.

Dan Ryan: okay, so 15 years is an incredible milestone. Congratulations. And

David Shove-Brown 2: you.

Dan Ryan: you are in the exercise of only looking forward in this moment, um, what's exciting you most about what you.

see looking forward?

David Shove-Brown 2: Um, we are getting more exciting projects every year. We are doing them with greater efficiency and greater design at the same time. So doing things really well and our teams working together, but also having clients that are letting us be creative and push that. So for me, it's, [00:50:00] it's looking out at our team and where they're going and where they're taking it, um, is just so awesome to see and starting to see just the depth of the team's portfolio and our list of clients.

It's, you know, yeah, we've, we've done some interesting smaller projects, and it's fun to see some larger ones and, and projects across the country and, and even internationally now starting to, to open up. That's-- it's just, it's a fun ride and it's, it's really remarkable. Um, I, I said this at the panel last week, that I am so honored and humbled that we have 40 plus people that work here that have put their trust in us as firm leaders to say, "Okay, these guys are the guys that I wanna partner with, that I wanna work with," that, that, you know, [00:51:00] yep, it's, it-- we're not big and we're not, you know, as nuanced as some other firms.

We're still, you know, working on systems and, and things of tho- that sort. But we have, uh, people that it's, it's amazing that they're like, "Yeah, I wanna be a part of it. I wanna do what you guys are doing." And doing it in such a way that it's just, it's really enjoyable.

Dan Ryan: and I think a lot of that, and I get this from you and Dave as well, it's that, that entrepreneurial, creative, and curious mindset. Because in essence, I love how you said there's some that might be more nuanced. To me, what that means is what you're not, and which I think is amazing, is just it's like you're in startup mode every day, right?

Every

David Shove-Brown 2: Yes.

Dan Ryan: opportunity. Every day is a

Yes.

Collision to learn from someone. Every day is a new day to try and drive to 75 banks to get

Yeah.

Of the line. Like it's, it's unscripted and, and exciting, and I, [00:52:00] and I love the fact that you and Dave are paying that forward, um, by impacting others.

So,

David Shove-Brown 2: I still think that we're a small firm for some reas- like, we're a startup firm

it.

Of, you know, two of us in a kitchen. Uh, you know, I still to this day think that way, and it's... You know, sometimes people are like, "You guys have 40 people. What? You're not small." And you go, "Yeah, but you know, my, my brain, I don't wanna get to the point where I don't know everybody that works here, or I don't know about their families or their pets or..."

You know, that, that, that's the relationship that's really important because it starts here and then it goes to our clients, it goes to the people with whom we work, it goes to our consultants and our vendor partners and all of that. Um, and it just, it, it makes things just a lot more interesting and a lot more fun.

I, I look at, you know, some of the outings and, and dinners and things you do throughout the year and at conferences, and it's really just hanging out with your [00:53:00] friends and the people that you like being around. It's not, you know, you're not on trying to sell, sell, sell, sell, sell. You're just having conversation.

You're just, y- you're just this. It's just a... You're just hanging out with a friend.

Dan Ryan: And I also wanna share with you and the listeners, I don't know if I told you this, but I got this-- I developed this new CEU, it's called Case Goods 101, and I, I did my, I did it for the first time, the official one where you get the certificate and everything with your team in your conference room.

Yep.

And it was the first time in 20-something years that I did a lunch and learn, and the lunch didn't show up. it was, it was awesome. And everyone was very open-minded. Sophie really helped out and got everything there, so they all got the lunch at the end. But, um, it was just so humorous to me, and I was able to laugh with everyone in that room, and it just, it meant the world. also was like, I know I was using a goose as a metaphor before, but it was like the duck, trying to keep calm, but my feet

Yep. Oh, absolutely.

So fast underneath, you

David Shove-Brown 2: I make [00:54:00] that analogy all the time. All the time. And yeah, it's, y- you know, again, it goes back to like, something's gonna go sideways today. What is it? Oh, lunch is late. That's the worst thing that's gonna happen in our day. I, I think, I think we'll pull through.

Dan Ryan: Totally.

David Shove-Brown 2: you know, understanding hierarchically what the important pieces are.

You know, uh, uh, the-- some of the team joke with me because, you know, they'll come and they'll be like, "We have a problem." And they'll go immediately now, some of the more seasoned folks will be like, "No, nobody died." "Okay, cool. Let's solve it then." You know?

Dan Ryan: We're not Green

So

Nobody died.

David Shove-Brown 2: yeah.

Dan Ryan: this has been wonderful for me. Congratulations on your birthday, and if people wanted to learn more about you or connect with you or 3877, what's a good way for them to do that?

David Shove-Brown 2: definitely go to the website, um, check out the work and see what we're doing, and shoot me an email.

Dan Ryan: Awesome. Um, thank you. I appreciate you. I appreciate your time. I appreciate your mentorship. I appreciate your [00:55:00] leadership, and I look forward to keeping the conversation going.

David Shove-Brown 2: Absolutely. I cannot thank you enough for this. This is, this is awesome, and it's just-- We've talked about it for a long time, and it's just, it's fun to do it and just hang out.

Dan Ryan: Thank you.

David Shove-Brown 2: So

Dan Ryan: thank you to all of

I-

Without you, we wouldn't be here talking to DSB and learning more the other side of 3877. Although we'll have to go back and kind of put it up next to Dave's one from a couple years ago and see, see how it all works together. Um, but

David Shove-Brown 2: Maybe you do one of those things like they'd have in talk shows where you have like one person in one sound isolated room and one other person. M- like The Dating Game or like The New Newlywed Game. Remember that? Where you like ask the same question to both people.

Dan Ryan: Yes.

David Shove-Brown 2: see what we come up with.

Dan Ryan: new Chuck Woolery. It'll be amazing.

David Shove-Brown 2: Yes.

Wow. Did we just aged ourselves so immensely?

Dan Ryan: made me think of a really funny skit, which I won't go into right now. But thank you, and

David Shove-Brown 2: Thank you.

Dan Ryan: you. to all of our [00:56:00] listeners, and we'll catch you next time.