Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Have you ever looked at a situation you’re facing in utter disbelief and thought, "How will I ever get over this?" Lysa TerKeurst understands. After years of heartbreak and emotional trauma, she realized it’s not about just getting over hard circumstances but learning how to work through what she has walked through. Now, she wants to help you do the same. That’s why Lysa teamed up with her personal, licensed professional counselor, Jim Cress, alongside the Director of Theological Research at Proverbs 31 Ministries, Dr. Joel Muddamalle, to bring you "Therapy & Theology." While Lysa, Jim and Joel do tackle some really hard topics, you’ll soon find they're just three friends having a great conversation and learning from each other along the way.
SHAE HILL:
Welcome back to Therapy and Theology, where we help you work through what you walk through. I'm your host, Shae Hill, and I'm so glad that you tuned in today. You're about to hear from Lysa, Jim, and Dr. Joel as they help us navigate the paper-thin line between when we're being responsible and when we're slipping into controlling tendencies.
SHAE:
If you've ever thought something similar to, "I'm afraid of what will happen if I don't step in," today's episode is really going to help. Like I said earlier, this podcast has a clear mission to help you work through what you've walked through. While we often want to quickly get over things, sometimes we simply just have to walk through it.
SHAE:
Going through is what will help us get to the other side with a greater understanding that God has always been and will always be with us. We may experience heartbreak, rejection, crippling anxiety, and relational hardships on this side of eternity, but with the Lord's help, we will survive it and help others believe the same is possible for them.
SHAE:
That's why I'm so grateful for the trauma-informed coaching certification from our friends at the American Association of Christian Counselors and Light University. Taught by leading experts in mental health, trauma, and ministry, it equips you with practical, biblically grounded tools to walk alongside hurting people with wisdom, compassion, and maybe most importantly, hope.
SHAE:
Right now, you can apply for a full-tuition scholarship to this $1,600 program, and if you're approved, you can get started for just $99. Visit lightuniversity.com/Lysa to apply today, or you can find the link below. Friend, wherever you're listening from today, we'd love to hear what's resonating with you and also what questions you still have.
SHAE:
So leave us a comment as you watch or listen to this episode. Okay, now let's hear from Lysa, Jim, and Dr. Joel.
LYSA TERKEURST:
Part of what makes control such a slippery slope and a complicated thing to talk about is there seems to be a paper-thin line between being responsible and being controlling. I absolutely understand the struggle of wanting to be responsible and sometimes slipping into control tendencies, and I bet I will get a yes nod from Jim and Joel as well.
LYSA:
Welcome, Jim Cress, Dr. Joel Muddamalle. And we've already had an episode to discover we all have control issues.
JIM CRESS:
Of course.
DR. JOEL MUDDAMALLE:
Absolutely.
LYSA:
So if that's you as well, which I think it's almost every human who cares and wants to be responsible, but sometimes slips into controlling. I, I think part of the thing is, is we have to look at how we view the outcome of a situation.
LYSA:
If you happen to be taking notes today, I want you to write the word outcome in big, bold letters, and then on one side, I want you to write the word responsibility, and on the other side, controlling. And here's where we have to really examine whether we're being responsible or controlling. Here's where we step over the edge.
LYSA:
Someone who's being responsible or they're in responsibility mode, they will do all that they can do to manage what is within their ability to control But regarding the outcome, they will trust God with that. The ultimate outcome, they already made peace with. They cannot control that. If you're in control mode, you will do everything that you think needs to be done to manage or to control a situation, but then you'll step over and start doing what other people should be doing as well, or you'll hyper-extend your capacity beyond what is reasonable.
LYSA:
Instead of trying to help, you'll start to try to save. Instead of being an assistant, you start to be a rescuer. And so we can step over that line. Regarding the outcome, someone who's in control mode, they are only willing to accept the outcome that they think is best, nothing else. So that's a good way to start drawing a line to better understand, am I being responsible? Am I being controlling?
LYSA:
I wanna share a story, and then we're gonna jump right into our discussion. We work with an amazing gal. Her name is Leah, and she's given me permission to share this story. As a matter of fact, most of the time, Leah and I, every book that I've written for the past umpteen years, Leah has been right beside me, and she's the one who makes sure that it doesn't get erased out of my computer.
JOEL:
True story.
LYSA:
Um, true story. I can write the words, but I have a really hard time saving them. So thank goodness for Leah. But we often will process the messages. Joel, you're usually right there as well because you're doing the theological review. You're helping me discover the theological core of a message, and so we share a lot of life together.
LYSA:
A lot of stories, a lot of personal examples, especially around the topic that I'm writing a book on. So
JOEL:
Which we're all terrified every time you've got a new book topic that comes out- ... 'cause we know, whoop, our life's about to be read. Here we go.
LYSA:
Yes. So usually, Leah has a chapter that's kinda dedicated to her because there's usually something that I'm like, "Okay, Leah, this is your chapter."
LYSA:
This time, I dedicated the entire book to Leah.
JOEL:
Truly.
LYSA:
Truly. She is the one that I dedicated this book to. I love her so much, but she gave me permission to share this story. Several years ago, Leah tragically lost her father. Mm. And he was a very healthy person. I saw him dancing and just the picture of health at Leah's wedding.
LYSA:
And then one day, he went in to have a checkup and was diagnosed with a brain tumor. And though he fought bravely and valiantly for a good stretch of time, he eventually lost his life to brain cancer. And Leah became the researcher for her dad. She was really the one researching every possible trial, every possible, you know, drug that could be taken, every different thing that could be tried.
LYSA:
And so she got into research mode, and then when her father passed away, it really wrecked her, understandably so. At the same time, she had her first baby, and then after her dad passed, she had her second baby. And she became kind of consumed with feeding her kids only healthy foods. That is not a bad thing.
LYSA:
That's being responsible, right?
JOEL:
Yeah, right.
LYSA:
But she took it to the level that was really starting to wear and tear on her marriage because if anything was given to the kids that wasn't on her acceptable list, then it would really bother her, and she would be vocal about it. And so one day, Leah and I were talking about this, and I asked Leah, I said, "Leah, are you trying to keep your kids healthy, or are you trying to prevent cancer?"
JOEL:
Mm.
JIM:
Wow.
LYSA:
Because if you're trying to keep your kids healthy- Then you'll do all that you can possibly do. But recognizing, ultimately, the outcome of your kid's health is you've gotta turn that over to the Lord. But if you're in controlling mode, you're trying to prevent cancer, which is you doing something that is gonna always be just outside of your reach.
LYSA:
You can feed them healthy food, but you cannot prevent cancer. And as we unpacked it, I asked her, I said, "Is, is there a time that you ever have this thought? Like, when was the day that my dad ate something that set off a chain of events that eventually led to him getting brain cancer? Or when was the day he stood behind a bus and breathed just too many fumes?
LYSA:
Or when was the day that he..." And you can list out all these other things. And she said, "Yeah, I do think about that." And I said, "I think you're carrying the pressure of your dad not being aware of that moment, and it set off a chain of events, to putting it in your situation with your kids. And so I think it's good, again, to feed your kids healthy food, but I think there has to be a checks and balances because regarding the outcome, you've gotta turn that over to the Lord.
LYSA:
You cannot control whether or not they ever get cancer. So I share that story because I relate to it, not in the same way, not the same situation, but I relate to it because of things that have happened in my past. Then I carry this fear into other situations, and my perception of what happened back then, the story that I tell myself, definitely affects whether I can be responsible but not controlling or whether I truly slip into control mode.
LYSA:
So guys, guess what time it is.
JIM:
Is it vulnerability time?
LYSA:
It is confession time.
JOEL:
I'm traumatized.
JIM:
Not your first time on this podcast, or mine either.
JOEL:
Kidding.
LYSA:
They love it when I turn the tables on them, so... And here's the deal. We're gonna confess some possible tendencies. We're gonna identify some tendencies of control in our own life.
LYSA:
And if you are watching on YouTube or listening, we would love for you to drop whatever is from this list that you relate to, a controlling tendency that you might have, drop it in the comments because we don't just wanna be three people having this discussion. We wanna be four people having this discussion, and you're important to us.
LYSA:
So how do you see controlling tendencies sneaking into your life? So I surveyed some of my friends about this, and, um, the, the list was very interesting. So this is not a comprehensive scientific list. This is an observation that I've made into controlling tendencies. So we're gonna identify some of those.
LYSA:
So let me read the list, and if you relate to that one, I want you to say, "That's me, that's me." Okay? Like You ready?
JOEL:
You-
LYSA:
Joel, are you okay?
JOEL:
Like, in real time you want me to say?
LYSA:
Yes.
JOEL:
Or you wanna wait till you get done with the entire list?
LYSA:
No, no, no. In real time.
JOEL:
Okay.
LYSA:
Ready? Okay.
LYSA:
Needing to control every detail.
JIM:
That's me.
LYSA:
That's Jim. Obs-
JOEL:
Why you pointing?
JIM:
Well, y- I thought it was good-
JOEL:
Why are you doing that?
JIM:
Needing to know or needing to control. Which one are we doing here?
LYSA:
Just, just in case he forgot, 'cause I know that's one of his
JOEL:
Oh, boy.
JIM:
I'm trying to lead the way for you.
JOEL:
Okay. Thank you. Humility. Appreciate you.
LYSA:
Okay. So needing to control every detail, that one's Jim. Obsessively trying to figure out how to prevent bad things from happening. That's me.
JIM:
Me too.
JOEL:
I don't have that problem.
LYSA:
Okay. Um, going to unusual lengths to ensure you're not caught off guard.
JOEL:
Yeah, I would say that's me.
LYSA:
That's me. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. I do not like getting caught off guard at all. Okay. Getting annoyed when people deviate from your plan.
JIM:
Me.
LYSA:
Jim. Okay. Having unrealistic expectations of others. I think, I think we're good on that one, guys-
JIM:
Yeah.
LYSA:
Because we've got the rest of them pretty much covered, right? Yeah. But that is one thing, having unrealistic expectations of others, and I think it's worth, um, definitely saying one thing about this. Um, one time I was doing a Instagram Live with Jim, our good buddy Jim over here, and I was wanting to talk about expectations. I said the word expectations about- Mm-hmm ... 10, 15 times in the introduction of- ... leading up to what I wanted to ask him. And as soon as I finished introducing him, the first thing you said is, "Lysa, are you open to a thought?"
LYSA:
And I thought, "Wow, we are live here, so here we go." And so I said, "Yes, I am." And you said, uh, "You've used the word expectations a lot, and, um, would you consider a thought of maybe changing that and making it desires or wants or even needs?"
JIM:
Longing, even.
LYSA:
Yeah. But expectations are really simmering resentments in disguise. And I said, "Wow. That one will pack a punch." So- ... that's definitely a controlling tendency- ... having unrealistic expectation of others. Okay, assuming others are incapable, and here's what is so funny about someone who admitted this. It is the one that has to wrangle the three of us to do Therapy and Theology. She is the Wonder Woman behind the scenes-
JOEL:
Amen.
JIM:
No doubt
LYSA:
making sure that the notes get taken, that the episodes get scheduled. So that-
JOEL:
Wait a minute. Now I'm, now I'm anxious.
JIM:
I love, I love that she rescues us. I mean, let her rescue. She rescues us.
LYSA:
So assuming others are incapable, before we started this show, Shae, the one and only, admitted that this is definitely her at times. Okay, here we go.
JIM:
Does this count in traffic, though? Because I do have that struggle in traffic.
JOEL:
What?
JIM:
Of seeing people as incapable, of like keeping the speed limit, driving. So I would admit just in traffic, folks.
LYSA:
That's the only place. Okay, so you can have some control
JOEL:
Yeah
LYSA:
... tendencies there.
JIM:
Well, a little bit.
LYSA:
Okay. Another one is over-planning. Another one is being overly rigid with boundaries. And then here we go, guys, thinking your way is the best way.
JIM:
Two hands up.
LYSA:
Mm.
JOEL:
That's good.
LYSA:
It's not that I think I'm the smartest person in the room.
JIM:
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
LYSA:
It's that I have great confidence that I have thought things all the way through, and there is a reason that I want this to happen because I've already played it out-
JOEL:
Yeah
LYSA:
trying to possibly prevent this from happening. So it's not that I feel superior in any way or smarter than other people, but- ... I think I've thought about it more than they've thought about it. Is that how you relate to that, too?
JIM:
Yeah, and, you know, I wanna do my own honesty and my own inventory when I say things, some people call them Jimisms, that, um, children explain, adults inform. That's not even original with me. So I'm going to explain for a moment. We've already talked about this. In the Enneagram world, I'm a 7. I go to a 5 in strength, and the 5 is that investigator, kinda private eye. So I will sit constantly and think through things. And so inside I feel, too. Now, at times I can be sinfully arrogant, no doubt, but I've thought, no, no, no, no, I've done years of therapy as a client.
JIM:
I've thought through this. I'm pretty sure based on experience at 64 years old that this is probably what's going on. And then if someone's, like, doesn't see it, they have no self-awareness, inside often I'll sit there, and that's my own... I have to stop short of idolatry, to be honest.
JOEL:
Mm-hmm.
JIM:
Because I'm like, well, no, no, I- you, you watch, this'll play out. And then to not judge them if it does play out, like, told ya. But inside I've not just... I'm not shooting from the hip to just say I think my way is the best way. I think I've kinda thought through this. But either way, it still can be for me an arrogant part of me or an idolatrous part of me, to be very honest.
LYSA:
Hmm.
JOEL:
Yeah, I mean, like, if we're gonna go all honest, the only reason I didn't raise my hand is 'cause I think the wording is wrong on this. For me, it's thinking my way is the only way.
LYSA:
Okay.
JIM:
Oh, up the ante.
JOEL:
Yeah, I mean- Hmm ... like, if you say best way, you have to acknowledge there are some potential competing ways. And it's, like, opposite of you, Lysa. You're like you don't think you're the smart... You know, I'm like, no, I think I'm the smartest. Like, I- I struggle with this 'cause I'm like you're gonna have to really convince me that there actually is another way because I really think I got it down. Like, I think this is the way we're supposed to go.
LYSA:
Alright, well that just took confession to a whole nother level. Yeah.
JOEL:
Sorry, Brittany-
LYSA:
Brittany, if you're listening.
JIM:
Oh, wow. If not, I'll call her and tell her, "Watch this or listen. Be sure."
LYSA:
Brittany, his wife, is taking notes right now.
JOEL:
Yep.
LYSA:
Okay. So the next one is resorting to guilt-tripping.
JOEL:
Yep.
LYSA:
That would be Joel.
JIM:
Whoa, why, why'd you get the finger pointed at you?
JOEL:
I mean, that-
LYSA:
Just in case he forgot ...
JOEL:
no, that's-
JIM:
Okay. All right. Just checking ...
JOEL:
that's, that's 100% me. Uh, that, yeah, uh, it showed up in my trauma egg. It's, it's... There's all kinds of stuff that's going on with guilt-tripping.
LYSA:
Okay. Using the silent treatment.
JOEL:
That's me, too, 100%.
LYSA:
And sometimes this can be me as well.
JOEL:
Yeah.
LYSA:
And so your silent treatment probably is just that you are trying to avoid, I would guess.
JOEL:
Yeah. I'm an avoider and a detacher. So, like, honestly, I think that we've all worked long enough together. There's rarely a moment... Like, you guys will know pretty quickly if there's something going on in my life. Like, the ability to, like, like, actually con my way through a day where something is just not... I'll just give people the silent treatment, or I'll be, like, detached or withdrawn. And then Lysa or Jim or somebody, Shae, Leah, will be like, "You okay? Is everything..." And then I'll be like Here's the full story. And so, um, yeah.
JIM:
Can we have a quick therapy moment around that? And I believe it's a theological moment.
LYSA:
I was about to have a therapy moment with him too.
JIM:
Okay.
LYSA:
Well, you go ahead.
JIM:
Well, mine's, mine will be far more compassionate than Lysa's probably will. What I'm sensing here- ... I could be wrong. I could be wrong.
JOEL:
I believe you.
JIM:
But inside that self-regulation we talk about in the therapy world, that just to have the thought, and Lysa, you're leading the whole way of when is this control, when is it responsibility, is to say there are sometimes I need my space. I need a moment in contemplation, even going vertical with God, like searching my soul, what's going on for me right now that the other person could feel like, well, you're isolating or you're just stonewalling, is a word we've used many times, or you're over here just shutting people out, silent treatment. One of the things I've learned to do though practically is to try to inform, "Hey, y'all, I'm not ready to have this conversation yet."
JIM:
It could be with my wife or someone else. "I need a moment to really think about this." So I've learned a long time ago that I wanna kinda give a little, n- you know, a little update here. I'm not shutting you all out. I just need some time to think about it. Still, I can inform the person, versus if I just go silent or rogue or whatever, their mind is going like, "Well, what's going on?" So I go try, really try hard to inform a person-
JOEL:
Yep
JIM:
.. I need some space to contemplate.
LYSA:
Yeah. Yeah, that's so true of me too. I don't wanna say anything that I'm gonna regret. And so I wanna really think through my answer before I jump in and get, you know, defensive or something like that. You know, I wanna, I wanna consider what they're saying. I'm a nine on the Enneagram, which complicates my thought processes in kind of a good way, but sometimes it annoys me. But I can perfectly see my side and their side. Perfectly. And if you give me a minute, I might even agree with your side. And so then that'll be a different response than sometimes when I have to dig my heels in and say, you know, this is how I'm experiencing this or whatever, so.
JIM:
Now remember, you were about to do an interventional therapy.
LYSA:
I was gonna... Okay, so here's-
JIM:
I, I thought.
JOEL:
I think you needed to remind him.
LYSA:
Here's...no.
JOEL:
I think we were fine.
LYSA:
Here's my brief therapy moment. You said, "I am an atta- a detacher and an avoider." Avoider. So if, are you open to a thought?
JOEL:
Yeah.
LYSA:
So I would encourage you to say, "I have-" Issues. So I have detachment issues sometimes. I have avoiding issues sometimes. Because at the core of who you are, it's not your desire to bear that label and that become a liability in your relationships. So that was just my one little therapy nugget.
JIM:
And joining you, one more little therapy nugget. This is a big deal. People say, "Well, you'll understand. That's my personality." Or even, "That's my Enneagram number." Fine, but what we often call this, what Lysa's alluded to, it's very important, is a style of relating that can go back, believe does go back to Genesis 3 with putting the fig leaves on to do what? To cover our inadequacies. So inside frame that up in, for all of us, this is a style of relating that I have that was learned. And I can also learn to operate in a different way, and I'm cognizant, yeah, there's a moment, maybe even biblically I'm in the flesh when I do this. It's not who I am, but it's my style of how I related. And all those style of relatings, those, those methods of operating, they all have a, an historic reason that makes sense.
JOEL:
That's good. Speaking of avoidance, let's get to the next one.
LYSA:
Okay, here we go. Having a bad attitude when asked to be flexible. Treating small annoyances as epic offenses
JIM:
I could do that some
LYSA:
Um, looking for opportunities to say, "I told you so."
JIM:
What if ... Seriously, you're helping us here. You ... I've already dubbed you, you are a great therapist and theologian yourself. I will ... No, it's true, because the way you think, and I see that with you at Haven Place, our retreats. I will think that from time to time, but I will ... The emotional self-regulation. You know, you've heard me say just because you see a lot doesn't mean you need to say a lot.
LYSA:
Says a lot, yeah.
JIM:
Or in Joel's case, just because you see a lot doesn't mean you need to eat a lot.
JOEL:
Yeah. We've already covered that. Yeah. I'll have the thought, but-
JOEL:
Check out the Taco Bell episode.
JIM:
You'll, you'll think-. Go back to the .... But when I do that, the thought is, and I'll go, "I'm not going to do that," that's a self-awareness and emotional self-regulation to say, "I'll think it." Well, you judged. No, it's in my mind but I'm not gonna say it. 'Cause I will think this a fair amount, but I don't always speak it.
LYSA:
Yeah. Yeah. I'll think it too. Yeah. Yeah.
JOEL:
I think it for sure.
LYSA:
Yeah. Yeah. Especially when I feel like, "Ah, like I warned you," you know? "I tried to, I tried to prevent this from happening," you know? So then I can think that in my head. Okay, refusing to let others see your vulnerable ch- side so you can stay in charge.
JOEL:
Tell you what, therapy and theology beat that out of me.
JIM:
I ... I was gonna say, not in this episode we have been ... Yeah, yeah.
LYSA:
Joel's gonna add therapy and theology to his trauma egg. If you didn't hear the last episode, you need to listen to it. Okay, recruiting others to put pressure on the one you feel isn't cooperating with your plan.
JOEL:
100%.
JIM:
Tempted, and usually don't follow through.
LYSA:
Okay, so these are just some things to think through and to try to look at, are some of these controlling tendencies sneaking into my life? Um, or are they very present in my life? So Jim, I'd love to hear your thoughts about any of these. I know we've already commented on some, but if there are any others that you wanna just expound upon a little bit more, I'd love your thoughts.
JIM:
My overarching thought around this, which I've already alluded to, is it seems trite to some people, but is self-awareness. I believe, and I'm saying this in an anecdotal way, that both theologically in my Christian life, my relationship with God and others, um, in coaching, I do a fair amount of coaching of people, like life coaching, and in therapy, that nothing may be on the practical level more important than my self-awareness.
JIM:
It's all through the Bible. Even how Solomon died, there was some lack. He was not, uh, aware. So that idea is if I can see what we've actually done here on the podcast, and people can go back and re-watch or re-listen, as you've said, put in the comment section. If I'm self-aware, that's one. Secondly, don't go into self-condemnation, which is like, yep, 'cause we've even had humor.
JIM:
We have it off camera and on camera to go, sure, that's me. But to have the idea with this that's going on that I don't go into self-condemnation. Well, I'm just a loser, or you correctly, correctly said to, to Joel, are you willing to say this as I, what I call a style of relation. So self-awareness, stay out of self-condemnation with this.
JIM:
And thirdly, get some people. Moses had Aaron and Hur. You may only have two people, trusted people. In the Surviving Unwanted Divorce book, I talk about developing the personal board of directors, that you get some people who can do a 360 around you. A- and you tell them, "You don't have to ask me am I open to a thought because there's a trusted...You know our dear friend in heaven, Bill Loki.
LYSA:
Mm-hmm.
JIM:
Bill and I s- we had such a close best friendship that he never had to say, "Are you open to a thought?" But these are people to say, look, Lysa's done the work here, to take this list here and say, can you see? Here's my assessment, called a self-assessment, and then have an other-centered assessment that someone looks and says, "Hey, I'm gonna be very honest. Can you see any of these in my life? What is a blind spot?" Self-awareness, no self-condemnation, and then other awareness. That person would say, "I don't think you see this," and make sure they stay out of s- of condemnation as well.
JOEL:
I think that's really good. I, I keep thinking about that really thin line between control and responsibility. And I remember, Lysa, when we were kinda studying this concept, the first word that we started to kind of explore was, uh, a theological concept called stewardship. And, um, you know, stewardship has in mind this sense that- You're given something by God to be responsible for. You know? Uh, there's a, uh, a, there was a brilliant, uh, astronomer, a guy named Johannes Kepler in the 17th century, and he was both an astronomer and a theologian, which I think is so amazing.
JOEL:
And, um, one day somebody came up to him and said, "Hey, what does, what does it mean to do theology? Like, what is theology?" And he said, "Theology is simply thinking God's thoughts after him."
JIM:
Wow.
JOEL:
I think that's such a brilliant definition because the idea of what we're doing here at Therapy and Theology is not coming up with new and novel ideas. We're not seeing the inadequacies and the deficiencies of humanity and thinking, "Okay, how can I create a theology to deal with that?" We're saying that God has already given us all of his words and wisdom and insights in the scriptures, and through the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit, and lived out in the people of God.
JOEL:
And so in the same way an astronomer looks at the stars and doesn't try to create new stars, the astronomer's looking out and trying to make sense of the relationship of the pre-existent stars that are already there. That's what we're doing with theology, and I think that's also what we have to do when it comes to control versus responsibility, or we could use the word stewardship, is becoming aware of what God has given to us to be responsible for so that we can be aware of when we are stepping beyond that area of responsibility.
JOEL:
And then to episode one, what is the motivation of that? Well, like what is the deep-rooted, and we argued in episode one that it is fear, that the fear that God isn't good enough, the fear that he's not gonna pan out, um, the things that we want to happen the way that we want them to happen. Those fears will lead us to step over responsibility that God has given us and to control.
JOEL:
And the perfect example of this is Adam and Eve. In Genesis 1 and 2, uh, there's this concept called the dominion mandate that in Genesis 1- God gives Adam and Eve responsibility and tasks, right? He's like, uh, be fruitful and multiply, and have dominion over the, um, the birds and the land and, and, and rule and, and spread the goodness of God out into the ends of the earth.
JOEL:
Um, what they were not tasked to do was to, uh, go to a tree that they were already told not to eat of, engage in a conversation with the serpent, the Nachash, and then be enticed into knowledge that was never theirs to be given, you know? And so they stepped beyond the stewardship that they were given, and they actually failed to do the very thing that God had given to them t- to do.
JOEL:
And if they did those things, I think they would've been more preoccupied with what God had given them to do. They wouldn't have even had time to indulge in all this other conversation, and that was the safeguard for them. And so I think it might just be a good exercise for us to kind of take a step back and consider where are the areas that we have responsibility as moms, as dads, as a husband, as a wife.
JOEL:
There is an area of responsibility that we bring into that relationship that we have to be accountable towards because that is what God has given to us to be accountable towards. We have to be careful that we don't step beyond the area of responsibility into trying to control our children, or control our spouse or con- you know. Um, because then it's gonna be maddening for us.
LYSA:
You know, another example from the Bible that I find quite fascinating is the story of Judas. You know, Judas was one of Jesus' close companions, one of the 12 disciples, and there's this tension that you feel as Jesus goes along and does life with the companions, with the disciples, that Judas had an expectation - Remember, simmering resentment in disguise.
LYSA:
Judas had an expectation that Jesus was there to save them from the Roman oppression.
JIM:
That's right.
LYSA:
He was there to be an earthly conquering king to set the children of Israel free, you know, so that they wouldn't have the struggle, this oppression. That is a legitimate desire. It really is The problem with it is he was responsible, but he slipped over into control, and here's how we know that. Because he thought he was helping God out, forcing Jesus's hand to make Jesus be in a position where he is arrested, and then surely he will rise up and be a reigning earthly king.
LYSA:
What Judas missed is that he, he... Regarding the outcome, Judas was only willing to accept the outcome that he thought was best-
JOEL:
That's right
LYSA:
... instead of trusting what the Lord said. Instead of trusting Jesus had the definition of Messiah, Jesus had the definition of, of the king that he would be, Jesus had the definition of how he would save the people, and it didn't line up with what Judas thought was best. A poignant scene is when they gather for the Last Supper, and it's this tender moment that Jesus is having with his disciples, and Jesus acknowledges like, "One of you will betray me." Yeah. And the disciples go all the way around the table, "It isn't I, Lord.” "Isn't... It, it's not me, Lord." "It's not me."
LYSA:
Like, "It, it, it's not, it's not me, Lord." And then it gets to Judas, and he said, "It's not me, Rabbi." And that's a very stunning, shocking detail that I don't want us to miss. Because it forces me to take a big step back in this conversation of am I being responsible or am I being controlling? And it makes me examine, do I view the Lord as a rabbi in my life, someone who teaches me good things, but then ultimately I'm gonna go my own way?
LYSA:
I may take some, but not all. I will not let him be Lord of my life. Or is he Lord of my life where I will do what I am responsible to do. I will manage what is within my ability to manage, but regarding the outcome, I will turn that over to the Lord, and I will trust the Lord in that.
JOEL:
You know, there's important political terminology that's, that's being discussed there as well. The Greek word for Lord is Kyrios, and, um, there's, this was most well associated with Caesar. And so every time disciples say to Jesus, "You are Kyrios, you're Lord," it is actually a political statement and could get him killed. Because there is only one Kyrios. It's, it's Caesar, right? But for Judas to call Jesus rabbi, there were many rabbis at the time, and there's almost like a political party where it's like, "I'm gonna pick this guy. I'm gonna pick that one. This is the one whose policy is most best."
JOEL:
You know, and you can kind of pick and choose. And, and in the framework for Judas, he had moved him, some would argue moved him, some say he was never in the right category in the first place, but he was just one of among many options versus for the other disciples it's like, "No, no, you are the promised Messiah that's waiting for me.” And so, um, that also influenced, uh, the control and responsibility there.
LYSA:
Yeah. Yeah. It's fascinating to look at. Okay. So now this leads us to a very important question. Why do we control? Why do we slip from being responsible into being controlling? On a practical level every day, why do we do this? So I'm gonna read a couple of- reasons that I think are legitimate things that we want to do to be responsible, but they can be taken too far.
LYSA:
Right? And they all start with the letter P. So the first one is prevent. I control because I wanna stop what I fear may happen. Okay? Obviously, if I'm outside playing with my grandkids and one of them runs to the street, I will grab their arm-
JIM:
Of course
LYSA:
... to prevent them from getting into the street, right? But if I take that to such an extreme, I can become a hovering grandparent over that child, never wanting them to climb or jump or run or play, even within the safe boundaries, because I wanna control. I wanna make sure they never, ever get hurt, that they never scrape their knee, that they never fall down.
LYSA:
Obviously, it's responsible to prevent them from running into the street, but controlling is when I'm gonna prevent everything from happening to them. Okay, the next one is protect. I control because something is happening, and I wanna make sure it doesn't get worse. So that protect, I see this play out a lot when we do our Haven Place retreats.
LYSA:
And I see it when women come and have a similar story of mine as to their husband has betrayed them, but they want to protect that family unit at all cost because they don't want it to get worse. But what can so easily happen, and it happened with me, is that I started enabling bad behavior, but calling it protecting the family unit.
JOEL:
Yeah.
JIM:
Right.
LYSA:
The next one is pretend. I control because by sweeping things under, under the rug, I don't have to acknowledge or deal with hard tendencies. Let me know if you can relate to that one. Um, prepare. I control because I never wanna get caught off guard, and I wanna plan for every bad thing that might happen. That's me. That's where my overthinking kicks in, and I lay in bed at night trying to think of all worst-case scenarios so then I can take care of all worst-case scenarios and make sure that things are not happening, pointing in the direction of something bad happen, uh, happening.
LYSA:
Okay, the next one is perfect. I control because if I can keep everyone and everything in line by using the right words, doing the right things, and getting everyone else to have the same definition of right as me, then I can make sure that we keep up a perfect image. And the next one is perform. I control because by performing my duties well, I feel like I can make things happen for myself.
LYSA:
I can get that raise. I can do those things. And again, it's not bad to perform well, but if you're doing it to control the ultimate outcome, that's where we can exhaust ourselves.
JOEL:
Yeah.
JIM:
It's true.
LYSA:
And the last one, predict. I can control because overthinking, overprocessing, and overanalyzing ... That's me, give me a greater chance at predicting the future. And I really do wanna predict the future. And this knowledge feels like power to me. And so those are just some really good things to think through as you consider the controlling tendencies that we've talked about. Again, it is wise and good to be responsible, but where we can get into exhaustion and frustration is when we stop taking responsibility and more trying to take ultimate control.
LYSA:
In my new book, Making Peace With What I Can't Control, I'm just gonna read you the subtitle because I think this sums up it, everything really well. We wanna find relief from the exhaustion of overthinking, trying to fix others, and wanting to figure it all out. Thank you so much for participating in today's conversation, and we'll see you next time.
SHAE:
And now it's time for listener mail, where we respond to your questions. Today's listener mail is brought to you by Compassion International, which I'm so excited to tell you more about. Compassion is fighting child poverty in powerful, practical ways. Through the work of local churches and the generosity of sponsors like you and me, Compassion is releasing children from poverty in Jesus' name.
SHAE:
We've seen the impact of sponsorship firsthand through education, medical care, healthy food, clean water, and the love and hope of the gospel. And now we want to invite you to join us in sponsoring a child. When you sponsor, you'll receive a copy of the Proverbs 31 Ministry study guide titled Keep Holding On as our thank you for investing in the life of a child.
SHAE:
Go to compassion.com/Lysa to choose a child to sponsor today. Okay, friends, let's hear today's question. This listener says, "I have observed codependent tendencies between two of my family members that they are blind to, and they really affect our family unit. I know I can't change them, but how do I cope with these dynamics?"
SHAE:
I'm gonna pass it off to Counselor Jim Cress to answer this question.
JIM:
Oh, yes, this is a very classic and familiar question to me. So first off, I would say you're noticing what appears to be codependent behavior between a couple of your family members, and if you say they're blind to that, well, your job is to be able to see if they're open to having a conversation around that, because they may wanna stay blind to that.
JIM:
And to be mindful that you yourself, to use that term, you yourself are not being codependent or trying to control what you really have no control over. So what I do often is to say to a person, "Hey," um, and maybe get them off by themselves, right, not in front of everybody, "Are you open to a thought? Oh, I don't know if I'm right, but something I kinda see here, it feels like there's some interactions between you and this other family member that, that might be unhealthy, and are you open to me saying a little bit of how I, I see that, maybe a couple of examples?"
JIM:
What you're doing is inviting them to see if they would say, "Well, sure, what do you see?" Are they open to the wisdom that you have? I don't doubt at all that you're seeing what you're seeing. And obviously, if they say, "No, I don't really wanna talk about that," or, "I feel like you're judging me," or something else, you've done your due diligence, and you've done whatever responsibility you have by saying, "Could I speak to this?"
JIM:
And you need to read the room and know your audience. And then sometimes, I know this myself, you'll be able to see things and feel like, "But what happens in me if I can't speak to them?" And I've said often that just because you see a lot doesn't mean you need to say a lot. So be able to say, I always think of J- Jesus in Revelation 3, where he says, "Behold, I stand at the door and knock.
JIM:
I'm gonna knock on your door. If you open the door, I'll come in and have supper with you." Seeing what you see, inviting people to go a little bit deeper to see what they might be, as you say, what they may be blind to, and then I would leave it alone at that. You've done all that you can do.