Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Conversations with business founders, leaders and experts, examining the changing landscape of leadership, purpose, business growth, Scaling Up, resilience and change with business leaders and owners in mind. We cover a mix of topics designed to ignite (or re-ignite) your spark one conversation at a time.
Learn More: visit the Ignium https://www.igniumconsult.com/
Subscribe for more exclusive content in the Ignium Spark Tank: https://www.igniumconsult.com/the-spark-tank/
Connect with your host Phil Rose on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/coachphilrose/
SPARKS BY IGNIUM — EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
Guest: Karen Ball | Senior Fellow, ProSci
Topic: The ADKAR Model — A Human-Centred Approach to Change Management
Host: Phil Rose
========================================================================
========================================================================
CHAPTER MARKERS
========================================================================
Use these timestamps to navigate the episode in Transistor, Spotify, and Apple Podcasts.
00:00 Welcome & Introduction — Karen Ball, Senior Fellow at ProSci
01:00 Karen's Career Journey — From IT Strategy to Change Management
03:37 The Purpose Moment — Discovering the People Side of Change
06:33 Why Change Initiatives Fail — Adoption vs. Installation
08:45 ProSci's Origins — Jeff Hyatt's Research Across 700 Organisations
10:57 Introducing the ADKAR Model — The Golden Apple
14:45 Breaking Down ADKAR — Awareness, Desire, Knowledge, Ability, Reinforcement
16:49 Awareness — Understanding the Why Behind Change
20:39 Desire — The Choice Every Individual Makes
23:24 Knowledge, Ability & Reinforcement — From Training to Real Proficiency
30:13 ADKAR in Real Life — Graham Learns to Swim
34:40 Barrier Points — Where People Get Stuck and How to Unlock Them
38:19 Resistance to Readiness — Changing the Language of Change
40:37 Messaging at Scale — Cascading the Why Across 15,000 People
44:32 No Burning Platform? Building a Compelling Why Anyway
47:50 Building Change as an Organisational Capability
53:39 Model vs. Methodology — The ProSci Framework Explained
54:13 Change Management for Scaling Businesses
01:12:59 Advice to Her Younger Self — Keep at It
01:17:04 Why Karen Does This Work — Because It Matters
01:19:26 Where to Find Karen & The ADKAR Advantage Book
========================================================================
KEY MOMENTS — EPISODE SUMMARY
========================================================================
A curated summary of the most important insights from this conversation.
The Purpose Moment (01:17)
--------------------------
Karen traces her shift from IT strategy to change management to a single afternoon in Boise, Idaho in 2006, when she sat in on a ProSci training session. The realisation: if people don't adopt new systems and processes, there is no return on the investment. That afternoon gave her a language — and a calling.
Why Change Initiatives Fail (06:33)
-----------------------------------
ProSci founder Jeff Hyatt spent four years studying change patterns across over 700 organisations. His finding: the difference between change that succeeds and change that fails sits entirely on the people side. Not what is changing or how, but who is changing — and whether they are being properly supported through that journey.
The ADKAR Model Explained (14:45)
---------------------------------
ADKAR stands for Awareness, Desire, Knowledge, Ability, and Reinforcement. It is the most widely used individual change model in the world. The key insight: organisations don't change — individuals do. Each person moves through these five sequential building blocks, and skipping or rushing any one of them creates a barrier point that blocks adoption.
Awareness — The Most Overlooked Step (16:49)
--------------------------------------------
The number one reason for resistance to change, confirmed by ProSci research, is lack of awareness of WHY the change is happening. Not that it's happening — but why. Karen's benchmark when working with a 15,000-person global organisation: anyone she stopped in the hallway could tell her accurately why the change was happening.
Desire — The Choice That Can't Be Skipped (20:39)
-------------------------------------------------
Desire is the choice each individual makes to come alongside a change. Karen illustrates this through the story of Graham, who knew exactly why he needed to learn to swim (his wife was pregnant) but had a traumatic history with water. High awareness, near-zero desire. Until he chose to be a swimmer, all the swim lessons in the world wouldn't stick.
Knowing How vs. Being Able (23:24)
----------------------------------
Knowledge is taking the golf lesson. Ability is playing on the course. These are two very different things, and organisations routinely shortchange the gap between them — rushing people through training without giving them time, coaching, or peer support to build real proficiency. Workarounds and Excel spreadsheets are the symptom.
Resistance to Readiness (38:19)
-------------------------------
Karen makes the case for flipping the language from resistance to readiness. Resistance is reactive and negative. Readiness is proactive and partnering. People resist change when they haven't been given what they need to feel ready for it. The question isn't 'why are they resisting?' — it's 'what haven't we given them?'
Building Change as an Organisational Muscle (47:50)
---------------------------------------------------
To lower stress in a VUCA world, organisations need two things: understanding that change is a process, and building change as a capability. Like project management or strategic planning, change management is a muscle. Organisations that build that muscle get calmer, faster, and more successful with every initiative they run.
The Human Case for Change Management (01:17:04)
-----------------------------------------------
Karen's closing argument: if a senior leader honestly asks what percentage of this project's benefits depend on people changing how they work, the answer is typically 80–95%. The next question — how much are we investing in that side of the equation? — is where most organisations have a gap. Change management isn't a soft skill. It's the difference between installation and adoption, between investment and return.
========================================================================
FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
========================================================================
Lightly edited for readability. Filler words and false starts removed.
Phil Rose:
Welcome back to the Sparks by Igneum podcast. I am Phil Rose, the host, and today I'm delighted to be joined by Karen Ball. Karen works for a business called ProSci, which is a global leader in change management. I'm going to start again, actually. I looked at my thing, I'm in CM rather than that, so let me start again. So that's take two. Welcome back to the Sparks by Igneum podcast. I'm Phil Rose, the host, and today I'm delighted to be joined by Karen Ball. Karen is part of the ProSci organization, which is a global leader in change management. And for those who have listened to this podcast a number of times, you know change management is central to some of the things we talk about with regard to purpose. But what Karen does, she's been doing this for 40 years. She started life in the information technology, but then realized that the people side is what really need to change. She's a senior fellow in the business. She's been doing it for long time. And I'm looking forward to this conversation because I think we're going to dig into lots of things that I've been talking about for a number of years and also work with. So Karen Ball, welcome to the Spark's Baking in Podcast.
Karen Ball:
Thanks, Phil. It's a thrill to be here. I appreciate you inviting me to join you.
Phil Rose:
Thank you. Now, interestingly, we started off there saying that you spent your first half of your career in information technology, and then you transitioned out to look at people. What was the thing that made you move away 20 plus years ago?
Karen Ball:
Yeah, interesting. I love talking to people about their career and the connections that they have made throughout that, right? How we make those shifts from one discipline to another. As you said, I joined organizations early in my career who were implementing large scale information technology changes. And I was at a client site — it was 2006. I was working with an organization in Boise, Idaho, an amazing agribusiness firm, and I was working on information technology strategies. The person I was working with said, hey, we're all going to be in this training program this afternoon. Why don't you join us? And I said, sure, I'll take an afternoon of professional development. The program was delivered by ProSci. It was a training program specifically for a group of managers who were trying to learn how to better support their direct reports through changes that were going on. And I had this moment where I was like, wow, everything that I care about — because I always called myself an end user advocate. When I was working with IT-driven changes, it's all great to go out and do technical design and development and deliver great solutions. But if people don't adopt them, then there's no value. And it was fascinating to me that there was a discipline called change management.
Phil Rose:
That's interesting.
Karen Ball:
So it was that realization that this focus on the people side of change — how we can more effectively support people through change — was something I cared about deeply. It was a purpose moment where I said, there's lots of people who can do great IT strategy. Can I be great at the people side of the change, helping people adopt all of the changes we were bringing forward? So I convinced the CEO of my company to allow me to spin up a change management practice inside of that IT organization. We would come alongside the technical side with the people side of the change, and drive benefits and outcomes — which is why organizations invest in technology in the first place. Then I joined ProSci in 2016 on the product team. So it was a 10-year journey from that moment in that room.
Phil Rose:
So last nine-plus years working with ProSci, on change management specifically. I want to tap into that. I've been involved in a number of IT transformations over the years. Back in 1999 I was involved in an IT transformation, and in 1996 at Rolls-Royce we brought in a group of consultants called AT Kearney. I was a 25-year-old graduate engineer. The change management was the biggest piece. And I learned a lot of what I do now from a coach who was training to become a coach back in 1996 — and that was where I first learned this word change management and about people. What was it that you saw in 2006 when you were working in Boise? What was the thing that triggered for you?
Karen Ball:
The big connection for me was that what I cared about was the people who were impacted by these changes. And the language of adoption started to peak with me — that we can implement all day long. Organizations are building a better something every single day, there's an opportunity or challenge that we're trying to address. But until we partner with the people who are impacted by the projects and change initiatives that we're leading, the benefits story just becomes quite sad, actually. If they're not supported through the changes we introduce, then number one, projects won't deliver their benefits. We build a business case with ROI for the investment, and without the people coming alongside the change and adopting what we're doing — the what of the change — then the benefits and the gains just won't be there. And we can actually erode trust. We build a history of failed change.
Phil Rose:
Describe to me a change that failed and why it failed. Then describe a change that succeeded and why it succeeded. It's always people, isn't it?
Karen Ball:
Jeff Hyatt, ProSci's founder, in the late 1990s was an engineer working for Bell Laboratories. He was scanning the environment going, why do some changes succeed and other changes fail? He was so intrigued by that question he left Bell Labs, started doing research, and studied change patterns in over 700 organisations across four years. He was looking at what is the difference that makes the difference. And it was isolated to the people side of the change — not what is changing or how it's changed, but who is changing and how do we support them in that journey?
Phil Rose:
You talked about what was Jeff finding in those 700 organisations. And it's really interesting — change is the only constant. I interviewed a lady called Laura Gallagher a few years ago who worked at NASA, and she worked on some NASA programs looking at what stopped NASA changing and why some disasters occurred because people hadn't changed and the psychological safety around that. People are always the common denominator.
Karen Ball:
Yeah. And in the room I was sitting in in Boise, Idaho, not only was I getting the language of change management, but I was introduced to the ADKAR model — the core model that sits inside ProSci. I always talk about this: if ProSci was a global fruit stand, ADKAR is the golden apple that flavours every single thing that we do. I did my research. I was trained in Kotter and LaMarche, I've studied Bridges, I've gone all the way back to the early 1900s when it was more of a sociological conversation versus a business conversation. Just about every research study talks about states of change: current state, future state, change is a process, we get people through transition. But what I was looking for was something actionable, accessible and worked. Not 27 sub-steps — what are the core elements that drive change? And that's what ProSci focuses on. Research-based. Holistic. Easy to use and apply. Adaptable.
Phil Rose:
And I think this is the bit that attracted me to this, because those five letters are really key to helping people understand change and driving the ROI. So let's dig into ADKAR.
Karen Ball:
ADKAR is actually an acronym. It stands for Awareness, Desire, Knowledge, Ability, and Reinforcement. Jeff is the creator of the model — published his first article introducing ADKAR in 2000, called The Perfect Change. It's now used by thousands of change practitioners and organisations around the world. It's the most widely accepted and used change management model. ADKAR describes the five building blocks that every single one of us goes through during change. It can be personal, professional, individual, organisational. Organisations don't change — individuals do. It's a universal model with cultural consistency around the world.
Phil Rose:
So tell me about each of the five elements. Starting with Awareness.
Karen Ball:
Awareness is awareness of the why for a change — not just that a change is happening. So I can say, Phil, we're going to implement this new CRM AI-enabled customer service platform. And you look at me and go, okay, why? Why are we doing what we're doing? Awareness is all about understanding why. What happens in organisations is they say, we communicated to everybody that this change is happening and then we sent them to training. Why aren't they adopting it? Well, did they connect to the why? Did you communicate the why? Do you have a compelling why? Does it address how they see the change coming to life individually, organisationally, personally, and professionally? And then Desire is the choice — the choice that we all make. We all get to choose whether or not to come alongside. We don't necessarily have to want the change, but we have to accept that the change is happening.
Phil Rose:
That's interesting. We often talk about what's in it for them and what's against their interests. But the key thing you said is first you've got to understand the why, and then you've got to make that choice. There's a phrase I hear: if the people don't change, change the people. That's quite brutal, isn't it?
Karen Ball:
That doesn't resonate for me because people are just trying to do their best. At the end of the day, there are things the organisation needs to do for us, and then there are things I'm accountable and responsible for as a recipient of change. The organisation needs to communicate to me: why are we doing this? Why are we doing it now? What's the risk if we don't? Why these five things, why now, maybe there's a sequence. And then Desire — the what's in it for me — I have individual motivators, there are organisational motivators. And I get to choose. I've heard people say, what do you mean people get to choose? Of course they do. It doesn't mean there aren't consequences. If I decide I'm not going to use the new system, I might find myself on a performance plan. But I do get to choose, and there are very specific things leaders can do to influence that desire to change.
Phil Rose:
So what about Knowledge and Ability?
Karen Ball:
People want to see the full picture. Awareness and desire — that's the front end. When we start saying people are being so resistant to this change, what is that telling you? They're asking questions about why. They haven't been given their awareness and desire triggers so that when you send them to training, they know why they're there and knowledge is in context. Knowledge is knowing how to change — what do I need to know and do differently? And then Ability is that proficiency: going from knowing how to being able. Me taking a golf lesson is all about knowledge. Putting me out on the course is about ability. Knowing how and being able are two very different things. Organisations often rush changes and never give people the opportunity to build proficiency through coaching, peer support, or even just time. And then Reinforcement is everything we're going to do to ensure the change sticks. As humans we're very good at saying, I'm good — and then reverting to what we always did before, because that's where we're comfortable. The benefit story gets torpedoed because people build workarounds. If you find 50 Excel spreadsheets in an organisation that's trying to automate something, you've probably discovered workarounds.
Phil Rose:
Have you got any stories about where ADKAR has been used? Something that brings the model to life?
Karen Ball:
One of the first things we do when ProSci teaches the ADKAR model is ask people to do an ADKAR assessment on a personal change. Let me give you two examples. There's a gentleman named Graham. When he was in his early 30s, his wife was expecting their first child and she raised the fact that he didn't know how to swim. He'd had a traumatic event as a child — fell into a pool, had to be resuscitated — and made a decision he was never going to swim. His wife said: I think swimming is an important parent skill. He took himself through the ADKAR journey. Awareness: very high — four or five out of five. He understood exactly why this mattered. Desire: low. Almost zero. He had a traumatic history. He said he had to do real soul-searching to choose to be a swimmer. Once he made that choice, the knowledge and ability followed — swim lessons, a 15-year-old instructor, blowing bubbles and floating. Eventually he took his wife to the pool and jumped in. The point of the story: he couldn't skip the desire step. Knowledge and ability were available. But he had to choose. The second is a woman named Anna, who was trying to get her six-year-old son to eat more healthily. She went into his individual motivators — he was starting to play football and wanted to be stronger and faster. She built awareness about what nutrition does to bodies, and desire came along quickly once she connected it to what he cared about.
Phil Rose:
And those are personal examples. What about the barrier point concept?
Karen Ball:
If you score each ADKAR element from one to five, the first element that scores a three or less is what we call a barrier point. It tells you exactly where an individual is stuck in the change process. Until you unblock and accelerate the influencers of that particular barrier, everything to the right doesn't matter — because that person is stuck at that stage. In organisations, you convert ADKAR into plain language. You don't send a survey saying, where are you on awareness from one to five? You ask: do you know why this change is happening? I was working with an Oil and Gas company in Houston — 15,000 people globally, one day, a major Microsoft SharePoint change. My objective was that I could stop anyone in the hallway and they could tell me accurately why the change was happening. That was my awareness benchmark. And when you create a common language around ADKAR, it speeds everything up. Many organisations now say: what's your ADKAR score on knowledge? And someone says: I'm a four, I'm good — or: I'm a two, I need some help.
Phil Rose:
And there's a really interesting flip there — from resistance to readiness. Resistance has a negative connotation. Readiness is proactive.
Karen Ball:
Exactly. Resistance to readiness. Resistance has a negative context. Oftentimes people resist change because we're not getting them ready for change. And readiness is so much more partnering. I don't like the language of impacted users as "targets" — what I want is partners in this change. The people impacted by the change can participate in the design, the messaging, the cascade. We're honouring the human process of change.
Phil Rose:
And thinking about stakeholders — every change has a communication challenge. We have to tailor the message so each group understands what it means for them. How do you help managers do that when they themselves are being asked to change?
Karen Ball:
Not every change is the same. A change in my functional group where I'm the sponsor — I own it. But for something like the 15,000-person global change, we had the CEO record a video message on why, why now, and what if we don't. We built a whole messaging cascade — EVPs to directors — and then tailored it: in IT, this is why we care; in production, this is why we care; in the plant, this is why we care. We talk about impacted groups — not just who is impacted, but how are they impacted? Is a process changing? Systems? Culture? Behaviour? Compensation? Physical location? We have ten different change impact dimensions at ProSci. And then: is it a little change or a big change? Incremental changes might just need a smooth path to adoption. Complex disruptive changes need much more preparation.
Phil Rose:
Five years ago, COVID forced every organisation to change overnight. What about when there's no burning imperative? When it's a nice-to-have change or a slower cultural shift?
Karen Ball:
It's still going on. Return to office is a great example — some organisations tried to force it and had a very difficult time. The individual motivators for staying home are very real: I'm comfortable, I'm productive, I can balance work and life differently. So there has to be a compelling organisational motivator. We talk about not just what's in it for me — WIIFM — but what's in it for us — WIIFOO. And with AI now, we're studying the change management impacts universally. What is uniquely human about our work — our empathy, our connection, our creativity, our grounded understanding of history to create better future and direction? Sometimes the compelling why is about what we become together when we embrace the change, not just what we gain individually.
Phil Rose:
You've talked about building change as a capability inside organisations. Tell me more about what that means.
Karen Ball:
In fast change, complex change, stacked changes — portfolios of changes — we have to be very intentional. ADKAR gives us that structured individual change process. But to lower stress around VUCA — volatile, uncertain, complex, ambiguous — two things help. First: understand that change is a process. Second: build change as a capability. Think of it like a muscle. Continuous improvement is a muscle. Project management is a muscle. Strategic planning is a muscle. If we isolate the muscle of change and get good at it, it calms the storm. It creates certainty. People can go, there's a lot going on and we're good at this. That's the difference between model and methodology. ADKAR is an individual change model — the five sequential building blocks for each person. ProSci's methodology is what you build around that: how do you strategise around change? How do you build plans? How do you activate key roles? How do you scale change efforts? There's a whole maturity model — low levels of change management maturity versus high levels. And when you build change as a capability and start getting successes, people stop being overwhelmed by the volume of change.
Phil Rose:
So the ADKAR model is the what, and the methodology is the how. What about scaling businesses — entrepreneurs going from 10 to 100 people?
Karen Ball:
Scaling your organisation is a change. You've got a current state, you're imagining a future state. You're adding new talent, reimagining process, reimagining software, reimagining allocations of function. Communication structures change. When I joined ProSci I was employee 75 — now there are over 500 people globally. The mindset shift is: growing and scaling is necessary to meet our objectives. We can take people through the individual change process. Recognise that change can be emotional. I worked with an organisation that was splitting into two companies. The senior leader sat down with their people and said: I understand this is a complex and emotional change. Here's what we're going to do to help you through the process. If there's not a place for you in our future state, here are all the resources we're going to wrap around you to help you transition. That matters enormously. People feel seen. When an organisation says: I see you, I know this is impactful, we are going to make this journey together — you become partners in the change, not just recipients.
Phil Rose:
If you were going back to the beginning of your career, what advice would you give the young Karen?
Karen Ball:
Keep at it. I remember coming back from my first ProSci training — I was starting on a big change initiative the following Monday. I was sitting in a tower in Houston, Texas, the city lights on, working late, trying to take everything I'd just learned and apply it in three days. I got very overwhelmed. And then I thought: just start at the beginning. Phase one, what are we trying to accomplish? Phase two, what are we trying to accomplish? Early on I followed the steps closely. Over time, what was very structured became instinctive and distinctive. You get to the other side of the complexity curve and you can explain the essence easily. So: keep at it. If you're passionate about this work, put yourself around other people who are also passionate. You don't have to do everything perfectly. Are you moving the needle? Are you making a difference in the lives of the people you're working with? If every person turns off their computer at the end of the day feeling supported, equipped, and enabled through all the changes happening in their organisation — that's a win.
Phil Rose:
Why do you do what you do?
Karen Ball:
It matters. I am a firm believer that it matters how we treat our people. They're not cogs in a wheel. They are humans with lives and cares and concerns and dreams and visions of what they're trying to accomplish. When we align those things with what our organisations are trying to accomplish, we become pretty unstoppable. If every senior leader asked themselves: what percentage of the benefits of this project depends on people changing the way they do their work? And they start saying 80, 85, 90, 95 percent — the next question is: how much are you investing to ensure the people side is being realised? Because without it, we build another story of unsuccessful change, and that hampers our ability to move fast, think fast, and deliver value quickly. Why I do it — because it matters, because it works, and because it's our path forward. The human aspect of all our work: the empathy, the connection, the energy, the excitement, the creativity that a machine will never replace.
Phil Rose:
Karen, where can people find you and the ADKAR Advantage book?
Karen Ball:
The ADKAR Advantage is on Amazon and anywhere audiobooks are sold. You can also go to prosci.com — P-R-O-S-C-I dot com — for incredible free resources, eBooks on ADKAR, learning, podcasts. So many things available right off the website. On LinkedIn I'm Karen Ball 26. And anytime anybody wants to talk about change, change management, I'm available for podcasts, webinars, stages. If you want to bring these topics into your organisation, I'd love to support that.
Phil Rose:
Thanks, Karen. Really enjoyed it. Look forward to connecting again soon.
========================================================================
SEO & DISCOVERABILITY
========================================================================
For use in episode pages, blog posts, show notes, and publishing platforms.
Keywords
--------
Karen Ball
ProSci
ADKAR model
change management
organisational change
individual change model
change management methodology
adoption vs installation
change resistance
ADKAR Advantage book
Sparks by Ignium podcast
Phil Rose podcast
change management framework
people side of change
change management training
AI-Optimised Semantic Keywords
------------------------------
- why change initiatives fail in organisations
- how to build awareness and desire for change
- ADKAR model explained simply
- individual change process in business
- ProSci change management methodology
- how to overcome resistance to organisational change
- building change management capability at scale
- change management for scaling businesses
- ROI of change management investment
- people-centred approach to digital transformation
- how to create a compelling why for change
- change management barrier points and how to remove them
Long-Tail Keywords (Great for Blog Posts, Episode Pages, and Social)
--------------------------------------------------------------------
- what is the ADKAR model and how does it work
- why do most organisational change programmes fail
- how to move people from resistance to readiness
- what percentage of change success depends on people
- how to build a change management capability inside a growing business
- what is the difference between a change model and a change methodology
- how to communicate change to large teams across multiple locations
- ADKAR model for personal change not just business change
========================================================================
END OF TRANSCRIPT DOCUMENT
Sparks by Ignium Podcast | sparksbyignium.transistor.fm
Host: Phil Rose | igniumconsult.com
========================================================================