Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
A show about cameras, creativity, and the weird shit your brains do while you're trying to make something.
Together, we're exploring photography for all levels — asking the silly questions, sharing the expert knowledge, and digging into what it actually takes to grow as a human being and as an artist.
Ep 04 The Trap of Creativity
===
Casey (she/her): [00:00:00] And I am super excited about today's topic because we are diving into if creativity and, like, being an artist is a natural talent and a personality trait, or if it's something you can learn. Because as a beginner ph- photographer, like, this has been- Like, when you start to get in the backside of photography, and we're gonna talk about this, like, mind-blowing, some things that I have realized about photography
[00:01:00] I'm curious. Yeah. Okay. I wanna start off, Amy, do you think n- natural talent is a thing in photography?
Amy (she/her): That's where people get stuck a lot, is they think- Right ... they aren't creative, and so then they shut off that part of, you know, where, uh, of, of their interests and think- Yeah ... "Oh, I can't ever..." I mean, I, even I kind of had that, that thought when I was in high school.
I hated art class. Yeah. I was terrible at it. Give me a math class and a geometry proof any day of the week. We've talked about that in an episode. Right. So- Yeah ... for me, it, that actually is, maybe that is where we start because that's- Yeah it took me a long time to understand that I could be an artist and I could call myself an artist even though the way I do art doesn't look like the way a lot of other people do art.
Casey (she/her): You bring up a great point with the math part, is I actually have a former client that I work with who is math genius, numbers, but she does art [00:02:00] with math in the form of coding. I don't know how- Hmm ... it works, but she's literally using, like, numbers to make art, which makes my brain glitch. Cool. But it really shifted, like, she's...
The things she talks about blow my mind. Um, but it, like, it made me really... Like, creativity means so many different things. So maybe, like, this is kind of, for the broader conversation we're gonna be having, like, what is creativity to you?
Amy (she/her): Oh. That's a hard question. The first thing that comes to mind is define creativity falls into the same bucket in my head as define your photography style. I don't know. Okay. I don't... And actually, in a lot of ways, I don't care. I like that. Yeah. I don't need a definition. I don't need a definition in order to do the things that I like to do.
Cool. So I don't need- Yeah ... to define my style as a photographer. I just do my thing as a photographer and put my photos out there. I mean, I do talk about with... So I, in, at big events I have [00:03:00] a, a photography crew, so we're covering, you know, three, four, five rings of, of, you know, action, of agility. And, but, uh, you know, it's, it's A Great Dane Photos, I'm the official photographer.
Well, I can't- Right ... obviously be in six places at once. I would love to be. Someone needs to clone me, and then I could just hire myself five more times and- Done ... my life would be easier. Um, maybe. That might be a little scary. Um- But I, I talk about, I like using a food analogy. Like, I'm the executive chef of this restaurant, and so the, the food that comes out of this restaurant needs to be, m- you know, Great Dane Photos food.
I'm gonna mix these metaphors really badly.
Casey (she/her): Right.
Amy (she/her): But the photos need to look like they came from Great Dane Photos.
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): Um, so there's, there's that kind of idea. Um, and I just got lost in my analogy. So, um, but I don't sit down and define what it is. Uh, the way- Right ... it comes out is [00:04:00] we go and, and, you know, I, h- we have conversations about what obstacles are we gonna shoot, what angle are we gonna use, how, you know, do, are we gonna use a, a wide angle, m- not wide, but, you know, at 200 millimeters or 300 millimeters or even longer, and how do, how do we want the, the photo to look, and am I happy with it coming out of, you know, putting my name on it.
And so- Yeah ... y- is it a Great Dane Photos photo? Yeah. There are certain things that photographers, other photographers will shoot that aren't my thing, and it's not that they're making bad decisions. It's a, it's just a different flavor of agility photography, or whatever photography. Um- Right ... so I, I, trying to- So-
trying to define and, and encapsulate what does it mean to be creative, I don't know. I just do my thing.
Casey (she/her): I like that. And the Great Dane one is kind of a good example 'cause I think you have that brand element. Like, across- Mm-hmm ... multiple photographers you need the brand, the vibe to feel the same. And then within [00:05:00] that, there's still how you shoot is still the creative element of, like, v- diff- the angles, and, like, is this a wider shot or a tighter shot, and, like, you know, those- Mm-hmm
kinds of things, that being the creative side of it. So there can be multiple aspects to it. And yeah. Yeah. No, I think that's, that's a good example, is they're not mutually exclusive. Right. Yeah. So I think for me, creativity, this is one I've thought about a lot, like, between us doing this episode, conversations we've had. Like I said, my client, when I started realizing she does, like, art with numbers and coding, is...
Creativity to me is, like, anything that gets you outside of your brain and, like, the day-to-day hustle. And that's still kind of oversimplifying it, but creativity- Mm ... for some people is doodling on the corner of a piece of paper. Some people, it is going out and taking phot- photographs. Some people, it is painting.
Like, it doesn't have to be this deep, rich experience. It can just [00:06:00] be... I mean, even, like, dancing to a song in the kitchen while I cook dinner Which nobody ever needs to experience Has a cr- has a creative element to it because I'm doing something- Yeah ... that is expressive. And so- Yeah ... what's been interesting for me as a beginner photographer comes back to, I've definitely struggled...
So the, so two things come up. One is I've struggled with the concept of like, I'm not creative. Like, I don't consider myself a creative person. I'm a very analytical person. And so kind of that reframing of what- Mm-hmm ... creativity means to me as somebody who's analytical. And then also like what it means to be creative and have like natural...
And this is, I guess, the second thing. Not even just creativity, but like natural talent in photography. Yeah. And like the realities of what goes into photography. 'Cause I thought I just had to learn how to take like a good picture, and that it was a personal failing- Yeah ... for me to have hundreds of throwaway shots when I went out and took photos for a while.[00:07:00]
Amy (she/her): Right. And y- and that was before you, and that you still haven't, you know, experienced the, the level of discards that I, you know- Oh, no ... on any given weekend. I mean, I, I... The scale of images. I mean, I- I'm lucky to, on any agility weekend, I'm lucky to keep, you know, 10, 15% is a good weekend. Um- Wow. Yeah. I mean, it's, that's just the reality of it.
Yeah. So I, but let's talk about that natural talent thing, because I do have- Yeah ... that opinion, uh, if you had asked me that 25 years ago or 20 years ago when I was starting out, I would've said, "No." I mean, this is just, you just learn how to do it and then you iterate and you improve and analyze and whatever.
And then my son started shooting for me, um, showed interest in wanting to, to come to events, and when he would come and I'd put a camera in his hands, I didn't have to explain a lot to him. Right. Which was wild to me. And it still is.
I mean, he still occasionally comes to events, and I can... I, I have to give him some explanation. I have to, [00:08:00] you know, basically the, maybe it's the style guide. Here we are talking about style again. The, you know- There you go ... a great Dane photos photo looks like, you know, this is where I would be for this shot and this is where I would be for that.
Give him some guidelines. Um, but he picks it up just like nothing, and so it feels like it's a natural talent for him. Um, uh, looking at, from the outside looking in, it seems like it just comes very naturally. Now, are there things that he has done in his life that probably have influenced his ability to, to do that?
Yes. Is, I mean, he is genetically related to me, so- ... whatever's working for me- Right ... is also working for him. You know, and his dad is very much like that in terms of very naturally talented at a lot of things. Things come very easily. Um, so he's got it coming from both sides. So that's- But that's, so there is a, a, a bit of that.
But that doesn't- Yeah ... automatically means you have to have that in order to be talented. Yeah. Well, and then there's the people with, you know, genetic anomalies like [00:09:00] Michael Phelps being, you know, the proportions of his body- Right ... and whatever are s- are so perfect for swimming. Yeah. Which is why he's such a great swimmer.
But that doesn't negate the work that he's done-
Casey (she/her): Yes ... to
Amy (she/her): be a world-class sw- swimmer that he is, so.
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): Um, and I don't think there are physical anomalies that lend themselves to, to photography particularly. I mean, other than you need to be able to
Casey (she/her): see. Right. Yeah, exactly. To a certain extent. To extent, yeah.
So. Yeah. No, I agree. I think there is... I mean, I think n- natural talent exists, so you see it, definitely see it in athletics. There are certain body styles- Yeah ... or leg lengths or arm lengths or whatever that m- make it easier for you to excel at whatever sport. And so I think natural talent- Or harder, like
Amy (she/her): don't put a-
don't put a basketball in my hands.
Casey (she/her): Yes. S- yes, same. Not, not made for volley- ... volleyball. Mm-mm, nope. No, no. Yeah, and so, like, natural talent definitely exists, and I think sometimes we give it too much credit, because there is that thing- Mm-hmm ... of, like, [00:10:00] repetition and being able to go out and just repeat a thing and learn from it and improve by 0.1% every time, and keep going.
I think about, like, in- Yeah ... I used to do a lot of weightlifting. And so, um, in competitive weightlifting, and this is across sports, I'm just most familiar with weightlifting. But, like- Right ... Chinese weightlifters start training at training centers when they're, like, six years old. So yeah, of course by the time they hit the Olympics at 18, they're- Mm-hmm
leaps and bounds ahead of some of, like, US competitors who don't start lifting a barbell until they're, like, 14. And so there is that element of, like, how much of that is natural talent versus, like, how much of that is so many repetitions from such a young age. Mm-hmm. And what plays into it. Right. And then also, like, the one that I'm starting to think about with my photography is different ways of harnessing my talents.
So- Mm-hmm ... when I was, again, this is my [00:11:00] analytical side. So when I was a kid, in high school I did theater. I was a theater kid, if that surprises anybody anywhere. But I was a backstage kid. I was a tech crew kid. Mm-hmm. And I did lighting design for a couple of years. And I remember our school, we had a big fundraiser, um, what do you call it?
Talent show every year. And this was, like, a huge deal in our town. Like, the, the thing sold out three nights, three different shows, big deal. And so the band director would come in to do all the lighting design for each act. So every act comes- Mm ... on stage, we set the lighting for it, we save the lighting, we go on to the next act.
And he and I started getting in this rhythm, and I would... He would put a band on stage, and we'd hear part of their song or whatever, and he's like, "Okay, I need blue, and I need moody, and I need a, like, center light." He'd start giving me directions, and I'd throw up some lights for him. He'd be like, "Great, this is beautiful."
And he realized, like, I have a natural eye for light design. And so it got to the point where, like, the band would start to play, and I'd just start to push up certain lights, and he's like, "Yep, that's it. Go. Next." Like, or, you know, [00:12:00] "More moody," or, "More bright," you know? Like, he'd give me, like, one little thing, but I realized, like, I have a vision for light, so how can I start to remember that skill and harness that and bring that back into, like, my photography and watching for that?
And so, like, I think that's an area, too, of natural talent where, like, I don't know if you could say I have talent as a photographer, but I have the willingness to do a lot of repetitions as a photographer. Mm-hmm. And I have some other talents- Mm-hmm ... around, like, lighting and stuff, so maybe I can pull it all together and eventually I'll get an award-winning shot out of somewhere.
Amy (she/her): Yes. Uh, I mean- ... ev- all those skills that you've accumulated over the years are gonna play into, you know, how quickly you catch on to the skills that go into doing, uh, doing photography. Um, but I also don't wanna discourage anyone to say, "Well, you need all this experience and you need things that are applicable, and you need-" Yeah
you know, this, that, and the other thing in order to start being a photographer. Right. Uh, all you need is, is, [00:13:00] "I want to be a photographer." Yeah. "I want to take better..." Uh, you don't even need to say, "I, I wanna be a photographer." You just need to say, "I wanna take better photos." Yeah. "I wanna take photos." Yeah.
You just need... Yeah. Start there. Let's just go all the way back to ground zero. Yeah. "I want to be-" I want to take- "I want to take photos." Yeah. And then it, "Oh, I wanna take better photos." Yeah. And maybe it goes to, "I wanna do this, you know, for money or for clients or for, you know, as a pr- a profession." Right.
Maybe it's a side hustle, whatever it is. But maybe it just is, "I wanna take photos, and then I wanna take better photos." Right. So, I mean- Yeah ... that's, that's all you need to start, so. Yeah. Perfect. And- So- ... if you don't have... I mean, I have so many students that have started with, "I just opened up the box to my new camera yesterday, and here we are at the first day of class."
I'm like, "All right." Let's do it. That's- Yeah ... you have all the necessary things that you need to get started. Yep. And, and we dive in, and some of them have gone on to work for me.
Casey (she/her): That's awesome. But, yeah. So [00:14:00] how does somebody go from pulling their camera out of the box to being- I don't wanna say being good 'cause, like, that's kind of not even the point necessarily- Right ... but that's the language I have. Like, like how do we do that if you're not naturally talented? I'm not your son who just, like, has a flare- Yeah
for, like, setting up a shot. Like, like- Yeah ... for the folks who don't have natural talent but who want to take pictures and who are open to the process, like we have a previous episode where we talk about like, um, kind of shame and self-judgment and things like that. Like, okay, I've done that part of the work.
I'm not beating myself up for taking bad photos. I'm here to learn. What's next? How am I doing this? What's next? How do I get better?
Amy (she/her): Um, well, I think, you know, for all that I was never involved in sports until my son was on the swim team, um, I mean, the, a lot of the same things that, that goes into being a good athlete go into being a good photographer.
And f- starting with just lots of reps, lots of do it and then do it again and do it again, [00:15:00] but not blindly. Um- Yeah ... the way that I got started in photography after just, you know, the basics that my dad taught me, um, in terms of doing agility photography, I was out there shooting, you know, on weekends, and I would shoot all day, and then I'd come back to my hotel room, um, come back to the hotel and, and look at every single photo and decide which, uh, primarily to decide which one to keep and delete, but there was always the analysis running in the back of my head of, okay, that didn't work.
How can I make it work? That didn't work, but I don't know what's, why not. Um- Mm-hmm ... oh, that one did, and what do I like about it? And this was all happening really quickly- Yeah ... because that's how my brain operates. My brain is very good at pattern matching and analysis, just like you. Um, so I could do that fairly quickly.
And then it was just this iterative process of, okay, now I'm going back the next day, and I'm gonna do it all again. Come back, look through all the photos, [00:16:00] keep, delete- Yeah ... whatever, but also do that analysis while I'm doing that keep and delete. Now, there is the idea of what's the criteria. You know, what- Yeah
what, you need to know what the criteria is for what makes a good photo. Yeah. Um, and that, I mean, we've talked a little bit about that in terms of you, you need to consider your audience and, you know, all of that kind of stuff. But for me, I had no, no criteria for what made a good agility photo really.
Right. So I just was kind of making it up as I went along. Right. I mean, there are things like sharpness- Right ... and, you know, not too bright, not too dark, so some pretty, as objective as anything gets in photography. Yeah. Um, and then I was just a matter of, you know, uh, there was a matter of what I liked- Mm-hmm
but there was also, I had client feedback because they would come to the booth And they would look at the photos, or if it was just online, they would look, they would order photos. And based on what they picked out, [00:17:00] that was feedback for me as well.
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): It wasn't a matter of, "Oh, that's a terrible photo."
It was like, "Oh, I like this one best, and this one best, and this one best," because those look like my dog. Right. Um, and so that became in... That just kind of filtered into my brain as that's also feedback for what I should be keeping and what I should not be keeping.
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): Um, and- And I would imagine too-
Casey (she/her): Yeah
not just what are you keeping and not keeping, but, like, as you do those filters, there's the auto- Like, I think for you, this is a fairly automatic connection. For me, I'm still having to translate- Yeah ... this of, I notice- Mm-hmm ... a thing that works or doesn't work in the photo, how do I then do or not do that the next time I'm out shooting?
And so there is that, like... 'Cause I, I think people, there's a conversation in, I see this in, like, the social media space, and we talk about, like, repetition and, and just making lots of videos and you, you know. But if you- Yeah ... don't ever take what you're seeing in the editing process and actually apply that to the action process, you're gonna still be editing forever.
Versus, [00:18:00] "Oh-" Yeah. "... okay, this photo worked really well, but I'm realizing I have to crop every single time. Great, can I get closer to my subject?" Or- Yeah ... you know- Right ... okay, I'm never catching, the dog's face is always a little bit too blurry. Do I need to change shutter speed or aperture or something so I'm making sure I'm catching, like, the whole face in focus?
And, like, so recognizing it in the images as you're sorting, but then also learning how to translate that into what can I change when I'm out taking photographs next time.
Amy (she/her): Yeah. Well, and the beauty of it, for me, agility photography is so repetitive.
Casey (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Amy (she/her): I was seeing it, you know, I was shooting 20, 30, 40 dogs doing the same course.
Right. And so I had f- you know, 20, 30, 40 versions of the same shot-
Casey (she/her): Yeah ...
Amy (she/her): every night. You know, times whatever however many courses there were. Um, and so I, that iteration, that do it again, do it again, do it again, was built into the process.
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): And I think there's... The sense I get from a lot of beginning [00:19:00] photographers is they do it twice, and then they wonder why it's not working.
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): Yes. And I keep wanting to say, "Just go do it 50 times-
Casey (she/her): Yeah ...
Amy (she/her): and then tell me that it's not working."
Casey (she/her): Yeah. In, in weightlifting- Um ... I had a coach who said that you need a minimum of a thou- thousand repetitions to begin to build the muscle memory. And s- and so that was a- Sorry,
Amy (she/her): my dog is making noises over there.
I know, I heard her. I had to throw something at him. I heard him stand
Casey (she/her): up and shake. I knew he was doing something. Um, but yeah, so I had a coach in weightlifting who said it takes... Or no, sorry, it's, it's 10,000 repetitions to create the muscle memory. Yeah. And so that's, uh, and I think you're right is- And I, I, I did this.
I, I'm guilty of this, of taking a couple of pictures and being like, "That worked," or, "That didn't. Aw, shucks." Yeah. And so, like, I've really... Like, one thing I'm doing, 'cause I think about translating what you were just saying about you have the opportunity to take s- the same photo multiple times with multiple dogs across the day.
Like, [00:20:00] not a lot of people have that access to that kind of repetition. Yeah. Like, how can you create that? I take pictures of boring birds. You know how many house finches I have around my house? Great. You know how many house finch photos I have? Great. Like, you know, is that I- Yeah ... as somebody who wants to do birds, I don't have to wait until it's the cool bird or the special bird or the special setup is.
Mm-hmm. Right now I'm taking pictures of them at the birdbath, on the fence, things that, like, stylistically, objectively probably aren't fancy photos. But they're an- Yeah ... opportunity for me to play with different settings and play with different... Think about how I'm doing all of the things while I'm shooting, and just taking lots of pictures.
And I will take the same picture of... We have lots of lizards around our house. I will take the same picture of a lizard over and over and over, and I will zoom in, I'll zoom out, I'll flip the aperture- Mm-hmm ... like, all the way open, all the way closed, halfway, all these different little things so I can see what's happening when I do that.
And this brings me- Mm-hmm ... to something that really blew my [00:21:00] mind as I started getting into the... And I referred to this at the beginning of the, uh, episode when I kinda got into, like, the behinds of the scenes of being a photographer. Yeah. Is, and you referenced this too, but, like, it's normal for professional photographers to throw away hundreds and thousands of photos.
Yeah. Like, I was watching, I think, a wildlife photographer on TikTok, and he's like, "Yeah, this one shot of a bear, I have like 200 other photos from that day that, that I threw away 'cause the bear was at the wrong angle or too far away, or the-" Mm-hmm ... "snowflake was in the wrong spot coming across his face."
You mean I don't have to get this right- Which is the thing ... on the first try? No. Yeah. And so, like, to that, because there's so much, quote-unquote, you know, big air quotes here, there's so much failure in photography that I never hear photographers talk about that made me feel like I was doing something wrong the first time a couple years ago that I thought I was gonna try to get into photography.
Amy (she/her): I, I think it's a, there's a mismatch in, in ex- expectations. And yeah, it's, [00:22:00] part of it is , how many photos are not shown versus the one masterpiece that is shown.
Casey (she/her): And similarly also, like, how much time sometimes photos can take. This was a similar but different, is like, there's a landscape photographer who was talking about, he spent, I don't remember what it was, like 30 or 50 hours sitting on this mountain over the course of a couple of weeks to get this particular, like, storm, lightning cloud over the mountain thing.
He's like, "I spend hundreds of hours of just laying out, waiting for the sunset to see if today's sunset is one that's worth photographing."
Amy (she/her): Mm-hmm. Oh. And I, I like, I like going back to places. So I do a little- Yeah ... I dabble in landscapes as well as the wildlife and the dogs. And I, I love going back to the same places.
And because I know it's not ever gonna be the same twice. Mm-hmm. Um, and I can take whatever I learned from the last time I was there and do it better. Um- Yeah ... or I like shooting the same subjects, um, because every bit that I learned about how an osprey dives the last [00:23:00] time I, I photographed that, is gonna come back into play and go, "Oh, yes, this one thing I wasn't doing very well, so I'm gonna work on making sure I do that better this time."
Um, and I may still not get the, may, may not get the shot I'm actually looking for. I think there's an expectation that everything we take is supposed to be shareable and a masterpiece and- Yes
perfect. And we l- we forget that there is practice. Yeah. That there is... A- and, and we've talked about reps, but, but the idea that I, nobody ever has to see those photos. Yeah. Nobody sees the crap that comes out of my camera. Because why? Yeah. What's the point of that? Um- Yeah ... unless I need someone to look at it and go, "Hey, can you help me figure out what's not hap- what's not working here?"
Then that's a different thing. Right. But you can take a photo, especially now with digital. I'm not, I don't have to- With each shot ... get it printed. Yeah. I mean, the, the, the beauty of digital and being able to learn this, this skill [00:24:00] and not go through thousands of rolls of film that you have to go pay for processing, and you have to- Yeah
you get this physical thing in your hand and go, "Oh, well that was a waste." The only thing you're wasting is your time. Yeah. And if you're trying to learn something, time is what you have to put into it. So- Yeah. No, I like that. Yeah ... not everything that comes out of your camera is gonna be a masterpiece and perfect and amazing and- Yeah
yeah.
Casey (she/her): I- I think that's such a good point. So- I wonder if a little bit of the- Old school film photography mentality of like not wanting to have to process hundreds of, like bunch of trash. I, I remember having, like going to church camp as a kid, and my mom would send me with a disposable camera, and like that 28 photos was kind of precious.
I wanna make sure that they all have the best chance of turning out, is like I kinda wonder- Yeah ... if that's a little bit of the mentality that has like unconsciously carried into the digital age of photography, 'cause this was something that was so capped, and like it made it- Right. Precious. It was precious
precious. So. Yeah, and it kinda made it- Yeah ... changed it, your ac- [00:25:00] accessibility of it between the cost of extra materials is, yeah, it- Mm-hmm ... that doesn't matter anymore. Go take a gillion- No ... bad photos,
Amy (she/her): and- Yep ... start deleting shit. And then format your card again and start over again. Yeah. And do it again.
And- Yeah ... do it again, and do it again, and do it again. And at a certain point, you're gonna probably run into a wall, um, where you don't know what to do. Like, you don't know how to make something better, and so then again, you, you know, get your, get your photos in front of a professional, whether it's a group session or a private session or whatever, and- Yeah
let someone else, you know, pick at it for a while. Yeah. And I don't say that as a negative thing. Um, you know- Yeah ... but get somebody who's got the experience to go, "Oh, yeah, I see exactly what's going on here," or- Mm-hmm ... w- can you tell me more about what you were doing when you took this photo? Can you tell me more about your camera settings?
Whatever. Context. Give me the context.
Casey (she/her): Give me the con- yeah, exactly. I
Amy (she/her): don't think we've said that yet, so we
Casey (she/her): better [00:26:00] get, make sure we get that in there. Get... Yeah. It's always context. There's always context, yeah. Uh, no, I think you're right, 'cause there is like, there's so much... And there's so much like conflicting information on YouTube when it comes to photography, and, oh, you just need to do this, or you just need to have the right settings, or if you're having this problem, just get the camera.
Like, all of this other stuff where there is still that element of skill, and like there are basics that are considered like the right thing in photography. Like, I'm not, I'm not explaining that well, but like I started sitting- For a situation. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and like I started sitting in on your group calls, and even when we're not looking at my photograph, I learn something from every call as you critique the other photographers of like the thing of like, you know, where is the animal looking, and is there kind of space in the photograph for our eyes to follow where the an- I was like, oh, that totally makes sense.
And I can immediately think of several pictures I took, and I w- like couldn't figure out why they felt cramped, is because, like the bird's looking [00:27:00] immediately off the edge of the page. Yep. And so, yeah, is those k- You don't have negative
Amy (she/her): space for it. Yeah.
Casey (she/her): Yeah. And so there is so much of that stuff that I don't know how the hell- I mean, I guess books exist.
There's probably Yeah ... there, like, there are probably books that talk through this, but in the digital age, that is not, my brain does not- ... think library for photography. But to be able to have that opportunity to watch somebody not just talk about like, "This is why this is a good photo," but, like, actually critique somebody's photography or your own photography and like, "Hey, this worked really well.
This didn't work well. Um, you're great at this." We went through a series of my bird photos, and you were like, you then showed me examples. You're like, "Here's what I'm seeing where, like, it's too busy." Yeah. "Here's a similar thing that's like the bird's peeking out of the trees, but here's how you make it a little less busy."
Or, you know, so being able to actually see that now, I can't articulate it- Yeah ... to save my life, but it's, like, in my brain. And so, like, now- Yeah ... when I'm setting up for a [00:28:00] shot, I can, like, look for that. I can see that coming or not.
Amy (she/her): Yeah, yeah. Um, I will, uh, full disclosure, cropping and composition have always come very naturally to me
I can't explain... I can reverse engineer why I crop something some way, but I can't, I don't, I'm not thinking through a set of rules when I'm cropping things. Right. So I have had to learn to articulate, you know, things like negative space and flow and balance and visual weight and all of those things in order to teach them, in order to have language to explain what I'm doing.
Yeah. But I don't think through those things as I'm cropping. I look at it and I go, "Yeah, that feels right." Literally, it, it's a f- a feeling in my gut of, "Yeah, that's, that feels balanced," or it doesn't feel balanced- Yeah ... if I don't want it to be balanced, if there's some tension in the story. Um, but it's always a, a, I crop and compose by feel.
Um, and so w- where that comes from, I have no idea. I [00:29:00] can't- Right ... I can't tell you where it... Like, I don't know what skill it is. And it's probably just a pattern matching thing that I've looked- ... at enough photos or something, , so then when I'm trying to t- help somebody else who does not have that skill or that natural talent or that whatever it is- Yeah
learn to crop, then that becomes an interesting process, um, to have to put into words what I'm just doing because- Right ... it just feels right to me.
Casey (she/her): Yeah. So. Yeah. That's, I, I mean, side note, but that's like one of my favorite things about teaching something that feels natural and easy to me- Yeah ... is then having to figure out how to articulate it to others.
Like, I enjoy that challenge as a teacher. Yeah. And I'm, I'm gonna say I think you do it well. Like, I have yet to see- ... a s- session where you're like, "I don't know, just do this." And I feel like- Yeah ... I've seen that from, like, other photographer teachers, is just like- Yeah ... "Oh, no, it's just supposed to be this way," and you are gonna be able to kind of...
do it backwards and kinda deconstruct the like- Yeah ... here's why [00:30:00] I've made these decisions, and here's the- Yeah ... end result that that gets you,
okay, so we've talked a bunch about taking lots and lots and lots and lots of photos. Yeah. But I feel like there's the potential to set a photographer up for burnout or frustration with that bit- Yeah ... of advice. So can we talk about the flip side of lots of reps and talk about rest for a second?
Amy (she/her): Yeah. Sure. Which i- is such an interesting topic I mean, I've had natural rhythms in my, in this business over the years that have just happened because of circumstances, but it isn't until I was working with you where we really started to talk about int- intentional rest.
Casey (she/her): Mm-hmm. Um,
Amy (she/her): or as I now call them, potato days.
Yes. Where I just sit on the couch and I watch Netflix or whatever until my brain gets bored, and then I can go and start actually working again. Yeah. So, um, but there were some natural rhythms in, in the way I started in photography that just made it a requirement that I rested [00:31:00] from, you know, taking lots of reps.
I mean, dog shows are a weekend, and so then I'd go home and I'd have my regular, you know, uh, daily activities as a mom and with, you know, babies and then toddlers and then, um, young kids. And I would fit the business pieces into the cracks wherever I, I could. Um- Mm-hmm ... and that was always really hard. So the, for me, the burnout was more the balancing of the two things, of the photography- Yeah
and the home life. Um, so there's, there were, you know, that would be, I think that's a whole different episode. Yeah. But, so the natural rhythm of agility trials were only for a weekend. They weren't, didn't go on into the week. The natural rhythm of in Minnesota when I started, there were no indoor events.
And so in Minnesota, if you don't know, we get a lot of snow in the winter and it gets really cold.
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): So you can't really hold outdoor events. So first one would usually be in early, uh, or in late April, and sometimes we were wearing [00:32:00] winter coats for that. Okay. And then through October, um, maybe you could get away with the first weekend of November, but generally it was an April through October thing, and then there were no events, and we would just, I, you know, I was home and didn't have a lot of photography to do.
I, I've dabbled in other things, but the agility was what really made my, my brain happy. So- Right You know, had this natural year-long rhythm of shoot for a few months, and then have a bunch of months off. And in that time I would be usually thinking about how do I wanna do it differently the next year?
What do I wanna improve? . That was my, um, reflection time to decide how, what I wanted to do better the next time I, I was out for an event. I, I literally wouldn't pick up a camera.
There would be months that I would not pick up a camera, and I didn't ever feel like I was less of a photographer because of that. It was just, yeah, I do this thing and it has these constraints- Right ... and then I p- I take a break, and then I pick it up again in April. Yeah. Um, [00:33:00] and I th- so I think part of my longevity in this business has been my, just the fact that I naturally have had those breaks.
Yeah. Um, and now it's become more intentional on my part, so, um- Yeah ... in terms of how I pick events and whatnot, so. , yes,
Casey (she/her): I am a big advocate of- ... intentional rest. It is, it's, I mean, it's, I think it's kind of one of those social media topics that took off in the last year or two of, like, rest is part of productivity.
And, like, that is true, but I feel like a lot of times we don't talk about why, and, like- Mm-hmm ... do the work to make the rest happen in a way where, and you mentioned this, you don't feel guilty about it, is there's that pressure of like, you know, I have this brand new fancy camera and I just went on a family vacation and my husband was teasing me 'cause I didn't bring the camera, and I'm like, part of me wishes I had, but also part of me's like, I don't feel bad.
It was a three-day trip. This way I could stay totally focused on family, whereas if I'd had the camera, there was several times I would've wanted to, like, divert from what we were doing to go [00:34:00] get pictures of the birds instead of being with the people . And so- ... there's a time and a place, and that's okay.
Yeah. And our nervous system needs that break. If you're a newer photographer and you're doing a lot of the culling of photos and critiquing of photos and learning, even if you come at it from a non-judgmental place, that can still kind of start to wear out your nervous system- Mm-hmm ... and your brain, and your sense of, like, even just which way is up or down.
Like, have you ever, like, said the same word so many times it starts to lose all meaning? Is like- Yes ... organizing your photos can kind of do that to your brain. And so taking a day, a week, a month to not take any photos and not process any photos, and let your brain process all of the- the information that you've been throwing at it and let it kind of simmer back down.
In, in weightlifting, we always have, um, the week before competition, they call it a deload week. And so- Hmm ... you train and you train and you train. You're adding weight and you're adding weight and you're trying to get as strong as possible. But then in order to be ready for competition, you've gotta [00:35:00] deload.
And so it's a very strict schedule of now we're doing less weight and all of these different things to prime our body for the day of competition. But if I don't rest, I'm gonna compete like shit. So I- Yeah ... have to stick the rest in there to be ready for the grand show.
Amy (she/her): I aspire to get to the point where I can, like, be prepped for a national event and have even a day before I leave off.
I have not figured out- No ... how to rest before an event. No. Like, I, I try and arrange my travel so I can have a day of acclimation when I get there. Like, I arrive... So I drive everywhere, for the most part. I fly occasionally, but usually I drive 'cause I got too much, too much shit I need to bring with me.
Um, so I try to build in a day to just maybe grocery shop, but not do a whole lot of anything else. Um, so I have done that, but What I really want is, like, the day before I start driving, I want that to be a potato day. Yeah.
I haven't gotten there yet. [00:36:00] No. 'Cause it's always, "Oh, I got all this stuff to do," and, "Oh, wait, I need to pack this and that and the other thing," and, "Oh..." Yep. Yeah,
Casey (she/her): so. Yep. But you've gotten really good at the deload after the event- Yeah ... of a potato day or two when you get back. And yeah. So and I think that's three.
Three. We're up to, we're three potato... Good. Like, it's- It might be three potato days. Yeah. Well, and I kinda like the way you said it earlier, is that thing of, like, just watching Netflix until your brain is bored enough that you're ready to go back to it. And like- Yeah ... we don't tend to do that. We're like, "Oh, I rested for five minutes, therefore I'm ready to go back to the thing."
Is the, the rest can look different. And so when I stop overthinking about the photo, when I'm no longer dreading the idea of sitting in a blind for a couple hours to watch for that bird- Then I'm, like, ready to go back and do it again. But- Yeah
if you keep forcing it before you're ready- Oh, yeah ... before you've had long enou- long enough break, like, this is one where, like, I would... I used to do woodworking, and I will never let myself woodwork when I'm angry, because when you're angry, you get distracted, and when you're woodworking and you get distracted, that's how [00:37:00] you lose fingers.
And so, I had a very strict rule. Fingers really matter. Yes. So if I'm working with power tools, I had a very strict rule that, like, if I realized that I was getting frustrated, I had to walk away. The... Stop. Mm-hmm. Walk away. You're done with this project for now. Go inside. Go do something else. Take a deep breath.
Figure out what's going wrong away from- Mm-hmm ... the power tools, and then I can come back to it from a refreshed place. And I take that into a lot of other aspects of my life, and including photography. Like, trying to sit and get some pictures of some birds, and I was getting frustrated. I'm like, "Okay, if it's frustrating, it's not fun, and I'm here to do this for fun."
Mm-hmm. Nobody is... There is no pressure on this except the pressure I'm putting on it, so, like, knock it the fuck off. Go take a break. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. So remembering that within the repetitions, there is also rest.
Amy (she/her): Don't be angry when you're shooting. Mm-mm. Never.
Casey (she/her): Bad idea.
Amy (she/her): Never works
Casey (she/her): out well.
Amy (she/her): Yeah. Yeah.
No, I... That, [00:38:00] that, that whole I, my brain has to get bored is such a new thing to me. It still- Yeah ... it still makes me laugh, really, is I, I have to get actually bored, and then I know I've, I've let my brain and m- and body rest enough- Yeah ... that I can go and be productive. Yeah. Um, you know, and get back to doing all the things I have to do after an event.
Um, but it's... It has to... I can force myself through some days, and... But, um, yeah, it's... I, I shouldn't write emails when I'm angry or when I'm tired. No. No. I... Yeah. No. No. It just, it's not good. No. It's not good at all. Don't hit send. No, don't hit send. Um, yeah.
Casey (she/her): All right. I, uh- Any last, any last thoughts on- Hmm
natural talent, creativity, rest and reps?
Amy (she/her): I think it, I mean, I, I guess if we're gonna bottom line it, you need both. And I think we short ourselves on both sides. You're so gung ho on the rest thing. For me, I, I [00:39:00] really think new photographers don't do enough reps.
Um, or if you've got new equipment- Yeah ... or if you're learning a new skill or a new sport or a new type of shooting, you gotta go put in the reps. And- Yeah ... obviously, when you get frustrated, when you feel yourself tired, take a break. And then- Yes ... you know, there... So find that balance, but- But there's... I, I don't know how to say it any s- more strongly.
I just feel like, go take more fucking pictures. Go take the photos. Go take the photos. You've gotta- Yeah ... give yourself data. Maybe that's the way to say it. Yes. Yeah. One or two photos is anecdotal, and I think I've... This has come up alr- I mean, we're how many, four episodes in and, and we already have patterns of what we talk about.
Right. So I've, I talked before, I think, it... I don't even remember what, what episode it was. Anecdotal data versus actual, like, real data. And- Yeah ... if you take a couple of photos, you know, for five minutes, it's anecdotal. Like, anything could happen. There could be any number of things that are going wrong.
But if you sit and put in the [00:40:00] time, um, and, uh, find those patterns or have someone like me, find those patterns- Right ... um, that's where you see your improvement. But you've- Yeah ... gotta put in those reps. Yeah. Um, because it just, it doesn't, it... You're, you're not actually learning anything without that, I guess.
Yeah. So that's-
Casey (she/her): No, that's, I mean, then that makes perfect sense. I don't know why, as you were talking about that, Baby Beethoven popped into my brain. Is like, at some point, like, we talk about Beethoven as, like, a natural artistic genius when it comes to music, but at some point he had to, like, learn how to play the piano.
And I'm sure- Yeah ... he sucked at it, and there was a lot of- Yeah ... plunking around and being like, "Oop, that doesn't sound good together. Oop, that does sound good together." And doing that over and over and over again- Yeah ... like you said, collecting that data And I think you're right. I think for most beginner photographers, the advice is go take a fuck ton more photos-
and I'm gonna guess with the more experienced photographers, take a fucking day off. Yes. Yep. I'm, I'm j- I'm just gonna [00:41:00] guess. Sure. That, you know, it's okay if you go be a potato for a day and your edits- Yeah ... wait a little bit longer or, you know, whatever. But that's gonna be my- Yeah ... guess, is that the, the experienced photographers probably aren't resting enough and letting their brain kind of sizzle- Mm-hmm
and simmer in what they're learning or working on or experiencing while they're out in the field.
Amy (she/her): Yeah. Well, and the hard part for a beginner is they don't know how to make those connections to what is, you know...
"Okay, I can see that something's wrong, but I don't know how to do the analysis."
Casey (she/her): I feel like photography is one that is hard to learn on your own, to an extent.
Mm-hmm. There is learning your equipment, Understanding some basics of photography. But once you get into your own photos, it's only... It's hard to self-critique so much. And I realize that, like, the critiques that I'm doing of my own photos are things I've heard you talk about in-
critiquing other people's photos. In the group, yeah. And I'm like... Yeah, in the group. And I'm like, "Oh, okay, like, this makes sense at what I'm looking at now, because I've heard it from someone else." [00:42:00] And so- Mm-hmm ... yeah, if you're feeling stuck, having that outside source. Whereas so many things that are out there, I feel like you can learn on your own in a way that with photography maybe you can't, and that's where people are giving up, 'cause they don't feel like they're naturally creative or talented enough or they're not an artist.
And therefore, since they couldn't figure it out after two weeks- Sure ... and fif- 50 photos, fuck it, it's not worth it. Like- Yeah. Yeah ... no, no, my friend. Take 50,000 photos and also- Yes ... come talk to Amy, and then you can decide if you're not an artist.
Amy (she/her): Yeah. Way to close that loop. That was nice.
Casey (she/her): Nailed it.
Amy (she/her): That
Casey (she/her): was well done.
Amy (she/her): Um, well, to close, should we... You had a question. Uh, like a, just a technical gear question that- Yes ... you wanted to talk about or wanted to ask. Um, so- Yes,
Casey (she/her): so I have a gear question. So we're gonna do a little, little gear segment here. Um, and so then we- Amy can refer people to this episode instead of constantly answering the same [00:43:00] question when other people ask it.
So I think this is something you and I had discussed in passing, and I swear I've heard you say the answer from both sides of this, so that's why I'm coming back to this question, is, is should I get... Is there any value to having a... And now I'm forgetting what it's called. Like, a, a tele- uh, a, an extender- It's got a couple of word.
Yes ... that zooms- An extender
Amy (she/her): or a teleconverter, I've heard it called both- Teleconverter ... both ways. That's the word my brain
Casey (she/her): was trying to grab. Yeah. Because it's one of those things. So, like, as soon as I got my new camera, I went and started, like, an Amazon wishlist of all of the other parts and pieces and lenses and shit that I want.
Because hello, that's me. That's how I work. Um, and then it's there when I find the money for it. But... And, uh, so, so is one of these, like, zoom extenders worth it? And Canon specifically has a 1.4 and a 2X. Thoughts, feelings? Which one? Neither of them?
Amy (she/her): Okay. So- It depends is the answer, and that's- Of course it does.
Thank you ... you know, that's another- That was really [00:44:00] helpful ... way of just saying context and nuance. I
Casey (she/her): know. All right. Great. Great talk. Thank you. Let's... We're out of here. All right, all right. Walk me through- No. Okay.
Amy (she/her): Yes ... what, what we're depending on. Okay. So, um, I call them extenders. They're also called teleconverters.
Basically what they do is they, they take the focal length of your range, the effective focal length of your lens, and magnify it by either 1.4, so, you know, 100 times 1.4 is 140. So now your 100 millimeter lens becomes 140 millimeter lens effectively. Um, or by two times, so then your 100 becomes a 200. But there is a trade-off, and there always is a trade-off in things like this.
Yeah. You can't get free focal length for nothing. . It comes at the expense of your maximum aperture on your lens. Okay. So if I have a f/2.8 lens, then the maximum aperture, if I put on the 1.4, the maximum aperture is now f/4.
[00:45:00] Okay. And then if I put on a 2X, now I'm losing two stops of light,, which is- Okay ... a huge amount, especially if you're- Yeah ... in, at somewhere where you're not, um, where there isn't a lot of light. You can't... If you're at f/7.1, f/6.3 on these variable aperture lenses, you can't afford to lose that light sometimes.
So it extends, it gets you closer, like, without physically getting closer, but it drops the amount of light that your camera can capture. And so then you have to compromise by either raising your ISO or lowering your shutter speed, or both. You know, a little bit of both. Um, and so you have to decide what is the compromise worth it.
There is- Okay ... a little bit of, um, a hit that your autofocus speed can take, depending on, uh, a lot of variables, whether, you know, between the camera and the lens itself, um, the vintage of all those things. Um, you know, you're gonna take the least amount of hit for a, a pro level lens on a pro body, m- mirrorless, [00:46:00] brand-new, you know, the most current version of, of all the things.
Um, so there's, that's the big trade-off. Um, not every lens can take a teleconverter or an extender.
Um, so for example, when Canon, uh, came out with their first, uh, 70 to 200 F/2.8 lens, that lens cannot, you can't put it, a, an extender on it. Um- Okay ... and that's one of the reasons why when I, when they came out with the next version of that lens and it could take an extender, I sold my original and, and bought the new one. You can't put them on the little short lenses. You can't, you know, my 15 to s- 35, you can't put an extender on that, if you put an extender on your 100 to 500- Mm-hmm ... um, it has, there's, this, again, we're talking Canon here. Um, it minimizes how much zoom. You can go all the way out to 500 and then of course that gets magnified by the, whatever the extender is. Um, but it can't zoom all the way back in.
It can't go back to 100 [00:47:00] millimeters. So it's got- Okay ... some funny, again, because of the physical, you know, how they are physically set up- Yeah ... um, it literally can't slide, it can't go all the way back in. Um, but generally if you're using an extender, you want the long end of the lens anyway, so that shouldn't be too big of a, of a problem.
Right.
Casey (she/her): That's, I was trying to remember- Um, yeah ... you started talking about the, the f-stop and I was like, I remember something else. It was that your, your minimum zoom changes. That was something I had heard about, that you can't come back so far.
Amy (she/her): Well, I mean- Like you're just- ... you, you are multiplying every, all the focal lengths get- Right
multiplied by that 1.4 or that 2X. Right. So yeah, you can't- Right ... you lose, you lose- Yeah ... the wide end of things. You- Yeah. No, it- ... you're gaining on the, on the long end. Yeah.
Casey (she/her): So. It makes sense. I just, I'd heard that part- Yeah ... but I couldn't remember what I was hearing. Yeah. So for someone, so as a beginner who's still budget conscious, who's looking at probably- Yeah
doing birds outside on a sunny day, as long as I'm more leaning towards birds sitting in a tree [00:48:00] and not so focused on trying to catch them in flight where we've got quicker motion, probably a worthwhile thing to add to my kit?
Amy (she/her): It can be. Um, I have one. Yeah. I, I have one of each. Um, I would say if you're only buying one, definitely the 1.4.
The 2X- The 2X is like the break glass in case of emergency kind of thing- Okay ... where, like, it's a rare species of bird and I absolutely have to get my, uh, my lens on it, and I- Right ... throw the 2X on, and then I'm at, you know, on my 600 millimeter, I'm at- Right ... you know, 1200 millimeters. And yeah, it's, it's- Like,
Casey (she/her): I don't care.
I just need an image of this- I just need that photo ... bird I'll take what I can get. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah. That makes sense. And if you're not
Amy (she/her): doing something that's moving, if you're doing- Yeah ... landscapes or, and why you'd need 1200 millimeters to do landscapes- ... I have idea. But- Right ... no, I mean, there are reasons, um, there are use cases for it.
Nikon- Yeah ... does a nice thing where it, um, builds in teleconverters, um, the 1.4 into some of their, um, lenses, like their 400, [00:49:00] their mirrorless 400 millimeter for sure I know has a built-in teleconverter, which- Yeah ... you just flip a little switch on it, and, and Nikon people love to brag about that. And, and you can have it.
That's fine. That's great. You, you do that. Um, it adds a little bit of weight. It doesn't negate the fact that you're gonna lose a stop when you flip that switch. Um- Right ... canon has a 200 to 400 F4 that had a built-in teleconverter, built-in 1.4.
And I- Oh ... I had one of those, and I loved it. It was fantastic. I didn't- Yeah ... use the extender, the teleconverter very often, but it i- there is something sweet about having that built in. Yeah. So, um- That is kind of nice ... but that's just not- If you want it, you're not
Casey (she/her): changing- Yeah ... pieces around. Yeah.
Amy (she/her): Right, right.,
Casey (she/her): It's one of those things I got looking at 'cause I look at, like, just some of these, like, wildlife lenses. You get into these ba- and they're just astronomically expensive, and they're- Well-
on a maybe someday dream list you know- ... way far down the road. And so there's that little bit of kind of like bridging that [00:50:00] gap where, like, A, making sure I'm not missing out on a tool that could be valuable to have in my kit, and B, how do I bridge that gap on my lenses a little bit without having to go out and buy another lens just yet- Yeah
or, you know- budget constraints, the reality of this gear, and kind of only having so much space or so much money. And so, yeah, it was just one of those ones that was... I was scrolling back through my, my shopping list, my wishlist the other day- ... and I was like, "Oh, I n- I need to ask Amy about those teleconverters, if that's worth- Yeah, yeah
exploring, and kind of even keeping- I mean- ... on the list."
Amy (she/her): Y- you listed all the reasons to get one. I mean, just, it is a way to avoid buying the big lenses. It is a way to, to give you more reach that you, on, on a lens that you already have. Okay. Um, all of those things are valid. And so then, then, okay, now we're gonna talk b- about what we just talked about in terms of reps and analyzing- Yeah
photos. Then you, you take photos with, with it on, and you just, you look at them and you go, [00:51:00] "Oh, I know what my photos normally look like, and these aren't just quite as sharp." Or- Okay ... "I know what my photos normally would look like with this lens, and hey, these are great, and I don't..." So yeah. So it's a matter of testing the equipment, doing more reps- Right
figuring out what's working and what's not. And it's all- Yeah ... context-driven. It's- Yeah ... am I willing to accept the trade-off of less light? Am I willing to deal with the possibility of having to use a higher ISO, um, or a slower shutter speed, or, you know, whatever the, the, the circumstances are. Y- you, you need to know what the tool does.
Yeah. And so now you have kind of that foundation. Yeah. And then you get to decide, based on the context in which you're shooting, does it make sense for me to use this tool or not? Yeah. Rather than a, "Oh, yes, you should have that, and you should always use it," or-
Casey (she/her): Yeah ...
Amy (she/her): if you're shooting X, Y, Z, then you always should be using it.
There's n- Yeah ... there's not an always or never. There is- Yeah ... this is a tool, this is a thing it does. Right. Does it make sense for the situation and, and that I find myself in? [00:52:00] Um- Right ... and then, you know, you live with the consequences, and you decide- ... it was worth the risk or it wasn't. And, uh- Yeah ... that's just, that's how photography works.
Casey (she/her): Yeah. No, and I, that's why we're gonna- You know, more than the
Amy (she/her): natural talent.
Casey (she/her): Yeah, and that's why we're gonna start doing these little gear questions. Much to my annoyance, you make me wait until recording day to answer my questions so that we can start doing this. But it's because none of it is quite as simple as yes or no, you should- Yeah
or shouldn't have this piece of equipment. Is, okay, th- there is a benefit to this. There's also a cost to this. Know that, and make decisions accordingly. Beyond the dollar signs. Beyond the dollar sign, yeah, exactly, yeah. That there, you know, be aware of that, and do with that information what you will. So, all right.
Yeah. Cool. Well, I guess- Yeah ... I still am gonna keep it on my shopping list, then. Awesome. Okay. Well, I think that's everything for today, so be sure to follow The Focus Trap on Instagram, all the places, at all the, our handles, @thefocustrap everywhere. Um, and then you can check the show notes for more information on where to [00:53:00] find Amy and I, and follow us and see what we're up to individually.
And we'll see you next week.