Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Unlocking Retail Media is the essential podcast for leaders and marketers navigating the rapidly evolving world of retail advertising. We move beyond day-to-day operations to explore the strategic future of the industry, covering major investment trends, the shift to hybrid marketplace models, and the existential disruption posed by Agentic Commerce. Host James Avery brings in top industry veterans and visionary founders to analyze how ground-breaking technology is transforming customer journeys, influencing product catalogs, and forcing retailers to rethink on-site, in-store, and digital media strategies to remain competitive in the modern age.
Matthew Fantazier: Ultimately, the
measure of a brand's success is
your share, it's not your sales.
But how are you doing competitively
is a better measure of, you
know, are you winning or losing?
When someone walks down the aisle
or is scrolling a digital shelf, are
they choosing you or- more, or are
they choosing your competitors more?
James Avery: Welcome to Unlocking
Retail Media, the podcast where
we explore the evolving world of
retail media from data strategy to
monetization and everything in between.
This is where we break down how retailers
can build smarter, data-driven media
networks by aligning with what brands
truly need from scalable ad solutions
and meaningful metrics to cross-channel
attribution and programmatic strategy.
Welcome to Unlocking Retail Media.
I've been looking forward to today's
episode because we're gonna chat about
a partnership we recently announced
that is a first in retail media.
My guest today is Matthew Fantasia,
who's the VP of retail data
partnerships at The Trade Desk.
For anyone who spends time in
programmatic or retail media, you
know The Trade Desk is where a huge
amount of brand and agency budgets flow
when they're buying programmatically.
His job is making sure those
buyers can actually plug into
the first-party retail data that
makes those buys really worth it.
We recently announced a three-way
partnership between Kevil, the
Dollar General, and The Trade Desk,
a step forward for how on-site
and off-site retail media can work
together in one programmatic workflow.
Uh, Austin Leonard from Dollar
General even said, uh, on a recent
episode, he called it his white
whale, something he's been trying to,
trying to get done for a long time.
Uh, Matt's here to give us kinda
the demand-side take and, and
how things are looking from, uh,
from The Trade Desk perspective.
Matt, thanks for joining.
Matthew Fantazier: Thanks for having me.
James Avery: Awesome.
So yeah, to start out, like it'd be
great to like kinda give people a quick
version of, uh, you know, I think most
people are familiar with The Trade
Desk, but what, what do you do there?
What's your, what's your kinda day-to-day
and, and how does it tie to retail media?
Matthew Fantazier: Yeah.
So I came over to The Trade Desk
a little bit over a year ago.
I spent my whole career
advertiser side, actually.
So, uh, spent 19 years at J&J, Kenview
post-spin-off, and then was real-
always really interested in that
interplay of commerce and media.
And as those worlds really came together,
how commerce data and commerce media
and brand media can work together was
a huge challenge I was always trying
to solve in, on the advertiser side.
So when the opportunity to come over
to The Trade Desk and really lead from
a more industry-wide perspective came
about, it was one of those, one of those
phone calls you, you answer, I guess.
Yeah.
And, uh, made the move over.
And what my job's all about is part, you
know, part of it is really working with
all of our different commerce partners
and using the word commerce intentionally
because the definition has expanded
rapidly, rapidly from traditional retail
into travel and specialty and finance
and all sorts of different verticals.
But, um, work with those partners
in how they unlock the value
of their first-party data.
Um, their-- And that, that definition,
like I said, you know, what transaction
data is, it could be flight data
or other sort of behavioral data.
And then the other kinda half of what
I do is how do you make it useful?
Uh, how do you make sure that it's
something that an advertiser can tap
into, that it can be used easily in a way
that is performant for, for a brand and
really driving the results that folks are
looking for, and ultimately, you know,
what can you do differently because of
this data, be it from a targeting or a
measurement or an optimization standpoint?
So it's really kinda connecting those
dots and, um, you know, helping to
make it make sense as this is such a
rapidly evolving corner of the industry,
uh, playing a little bit of that, uh,
translator and connective tissue role.
James Avery: Yeah, it's kinda the
way we, we always kinda talk about
commerce media as, you know, like
you have retail media, which is
clearly like there's a retailer there.
Yep.
Uh, but commerce media is all,
all these people that do have that
really valuable first-party data
and are, you know, maybe they're in
somewhere in the transaction, right?
Like a bank or a credit card company or,
you know, mentioned like travel, uh, kind
of all have k- kinda got play in that
space even though they're not, they're not
actually transacting a good at the end.
Matthew Fantazier: Right.
And it, it really, it just
changes how you think about it.
I, I think it's an important change
and one that the industry needs to
really consider how we think about it,
because it's not just about, you know,
transactions of like, I am buying a good
or service and driving home with it,
but really it's, it's that behavioral
signal of what's going on in somebody's
life and how do you tap into that.
And the word I always use with,
uh, advertisers when I meet
with them is be intentional.
So what is the thing you're trying to
achieve, and how could these different
data sets help you achieve it?
It might be targeting people that pur-
you know, shop certain categories and
maybe talking to people who are planning
a vacation or, you know, if you're, uh,
a luxury brand, you may not be thinking
about an individual SKU 'cause, you
know, people aren't necessarily buying
Louis Vuitton purses every week, but
you might wanna target people who are
luxury shoppers, for instance, and that's
a little bit of a wider definition and
a different type of purchase occasion.
James Avery: Yeah, and that, that's
a good lead-in to, you know, kinda
thinking about, you know, I think
a lot of the people that listen to
this, a lot of customers we work with,
right, they're on the, they're on that
retailer commerce- Mm-hmm … side.
What, you know, when you, from the trade
desk standpoint, right, you, you work
with a lot of these brands and agencies.
What, what are they looking for?
Like, what's the, what's gonna
get, you know, kinda unlock, you
know, they all wanna unlock more
agency spend or brand spend.
Yeah.
Right?
I'm sure you get this question
like 50 times a day, right?
Like what- All the time … what's
gonna unlock more spend for, for
the different, you know, commerce
or retail media networks out there?
Matthew Fantazier: Yeah, I think there's
a couple things, and the, you're right.
This has become a huge question, uh, in
the industry, part- partially because
it's a huge bucket of money out there
that they're looking to access, and it
represents that next phase of growth
because there's only so much that can,
uh, come from a trade budget or a shopper
budget, and a lot of these vehicles
are, you know, especially upper funnel
types of things, are more meant for the,
those brand types of investments we see.
So they're all trying
to solve this question.
I, at a very basic level, make it simple.
So nobody wants to jump through
a bunch of hoops to- purchase
media, to measure what's going on?
How do we make this really,
really easy and effectively part
of how they buy media today?
So how do you make this
more interoperable?
How does it just naturally fit into the
way they are purchasing those, those
buying motions, um, and really just
activate alongside what they're doing?
So the problem we run into on
the advertiser side is when you
buy in all these different silos,
they don't talk to each other.
So you're not able to control
for frequency as eas- easily.
You're not able to optimize
off of performance.
Your measurement could be disparate
in terms of how it's being attributed.
Um, you're not able to retar-
like, all the different things.
Complexity is bad in media, and
that's, that's a challenge because
we have a complex media ecosystem.
So the more you can bring it together,
that it lowers that barrier to entry for
a brand, 'cause anytime you're asking a
brand or an agency to do one more thing
A- anyone who's lived on that side of the
world for any time knows how difficult
that is, how challenging those jobs
are, and you're not looking for one more
login or one more system to place a buy.
Um, they're really
looking to make it easy.
The other thing is really lean into
what makes you special, because there's
a lot of different ways to get data.
The retailers and commerce players
aren't the only people that have data,
but what can you do with that data?
And that's really where unlocking those,
that measurement aspect, those full funnel
outcomes, I like to use the term connected
funnel, which we'll get to a little bit
later when we talk about the integration.
But how are you connecting the dots
across what's happening in one, maybe
an upper funnel environment with a
lower funnel environment, and really
gain that understanding, that path to
conversion type of insight, and really
be able to decision against that?
That is really unique, and that creates
benefit not just for that lower funnel
conversion, but ultimately it's gonna
tell you what upper funnel media is
working hardest for you, what's driving
you the most referrals and conversions.
Um, you know, if you see the people who
are exposed to TV are a whole lot more
likely to land on a, you know, a PDP and
make a purchase versus somebody who you're
reaching over audio, that might tell you--
that might be an insight you wanna act on
potentially, depending on your strategy.
So the more you can tap into that
insight layer of what they bring,
and it's not just selling data, the
better, 'cause that's y- that's how
you justify the additional step and
the premium that often comes with this.
James Avery: Yeah, I think it's, it's
a great point that I think, I think
sometimes when we're like, retailers we
talk to don't, don't really understand
how much other data is out there.
Matthew Fantazier: Right.
James Avery: And that, you know, it's
like, like any given retailer has, you
know, they, they have a great data set.
Totally.
But a lot of times that data set can
be bought from 30 other people, right?
Mm-hmm.
There's other people that are getting
their data specifically or getting
data, demographic data- Yep … that's
close to it or, or stuff like that.
So I think you're right that it's
like just the, the data on its own
isn't, isn't gonna do it, right?
It's like looking at what,
what else can you do, right?
Can you actually- For sure … given that
full funnel, can you actually show what,
what's working and how it's working?
Um, I think your point about
fragmentation is great because I
think, uh, a lot of times people talk
about fragmentation, they talk about,
you know, there's like 100 different,
300 different retail media networks.
But I think there's actually, there's
like four times that because for
any given retail media network,
half the time you have to log into
two or three different systems.
Matthew Fantazier: Sure.
James Avery: Right.
Yeah.
You wanna do offsite, you go over here.
You wanna do onsite, you go over here.
Yeah.
That's right.
You wanna do onsite, you know,
display, you go over here.
You want audio, you come over here.
You want in-store, you
go over there, right?
So it's like it's not just 300 retail
media networks you have to care about.
It's like, it's like 1,500 platforms,
right- I mean- … out of the 300
Matthew Fantazier: You've painted a,
a scary picture that I hadn't con-
I honestly like, yeah, you're right.
I mean, there's absolutely a
number of them where e- even inside
of their silo, there's silos.
Right.
Um, and that's really difficult.
And some of that's- Yeah … for good
reason and, you know, the, I get it.
Uh, but that's kind of the maturity
curve I think we're on, where a lot
of this, I mean, it's, it is not a, so
many of these networks, I'd be curious,
I mean, you see all these charts of,
you know, year by year what's launched.
I mean, we're talking probably
the vast majority are in
the last five or six years.
Yeah.
You have a couple of the, you know,
Amazon, Walmart, Target, some of
these, you know, big guys that have
been around for a little bit longer.
But- You know, vast majority are
pretty, pretty young in, uh, in media.
James Avery: Yeah, really COVID, COVID
really was, like, the accelerant- Oh, yeah
where suddenly, you know,
suddenly all these- We
Matthew Fantazier: have
James Avery: a choice.
Yeah.
Well, and also, like, suddenly all
these grocery chains who probably
had nobody ever go to their website
before- Right … like, everyone
was going to their website, right?
And- That's what happened to us
… e-commerce, e-commerce grew, you know.
Yeah.
Matthew Fantazier: I had to move my shelf
talker spend and display spend somewhere.
I'm like, "Well, your store's closed,
so I can't- Right … put it… Why am I
building displays?" We put it into media.
Yep.
So it was this huge hockey
stick of investment.
Um, it was sort of serendipitous where,
you know, this tough, you know, obviously
COVID situation that's going on and it's
creating all this havoc, and at the same
time e-commerce is growing, and these,
these things are maturing, and it just
kinda all happened at the same time.
But yeah, we, we were forced to spend
on it, but that was not that long ago.
James Avery: Yeah.
No, I mean, you're right.
I think, like, that kinda kicked
off just, like, the, you know, the
race to, to- Totally … launching
all these retail media networks.
But I do think we end up with, like,
fragmentation inside of fragmentation,
which leads into, like, I'd love to talk
about the partnership that we have going-
Matthew Fantazier: Yeah
James Avery: uh, between TradeDesk, Dollar
General, KEVOL, 'cause I get it, you know,
we're trying to really kinda answer, I
think, answer some of those challenges.
Um- Yeah … so what, you know, do you
wanna dig into, like, what, what are,
what is it we're actually doing together?
Matthew Fantazier: I mean, I- it's,
this is, since I started, I think it
was the first week I started, uh, a
little over a year ago, like I said,
this, the idea of on-site was something
I brought up right away, 'cause that is
probably the most obvious fragmentation.
Like, there's kind of that structural
fragmentation that's going to exist,
and to some extent will exist because
different retailers and different…
Like, those, those are real things.
But inside of those systems, I was
al- you know, when you buy on, you
know, like, Amazon, for example,
where you are able to do all of
that, that was very natural to us.
So you're buying the upper funnel.
You're then able to dig into what's
happening on the PDPs and search
and all those sorts of things.
It's a really powerful system, and
it's like, feels like that should
be more available across the entire
ecosystem, especially as it matures
with data and different capabilities.
And right away I'm like, "This feels
like a thing." It just feels like
something we should be doing since
retailers by and large are looking for
ways to evolve and mature their offering.
And it's like, well, again,
back to the what makes you
special, you own conversion data.
You own that really important
part of the consumer journey when
someone makes a purchase decision.
So how do you tap into that
to inform all the other stuff?
was really the hypothesis at
a very simple kind of level.
And that's, I think I talked with
Austin from Dollar General in September.
So he started at Dollar General right
after I started at The Trade Desk.
He, he moved over, we called each other.
It's like, "Hey, I guess
we're gonna work together.
That's, that's pretty cool." We, we'd
known each other f- through some other
walks of life and past roles, and, uh,
we met, we were together in September
of last year, and had the first real
initial conversation in earnest of like,
"So like, are you guys open to this?
'Cause like, I'm trying to find, like,
I think it's a thing, m- and I'm just
looking for people that also are kinda
willing to test this hypothesis."
And he's been an amazing partner in
this, and then that's when he said,
"Hey, can you talk to Kevel?" Yeah.
I was like, "Sure." Like, why not?
So fast-forward another couple weeks,
I have coffee in London, um, with,
uh, one of our Kevel friends, Matt,
and kinda have the same conversation.
It's like, all right, well this
is kind of what we want it to be.
We're looking to make it easier for
advertisers, connect measurement,
connect identity, make it this really
robust, meaningful system, because
just getting on-site inventory was
kind of meaningless to an extent.
You can buy it in those other 38 ways.
People don't need a 39th way
to buy it, so it has to matter.
So we're like, we have to
tie in the measurement.
We have to make it- Yeah … user-friendly
and like really drive real business
outcomes for an advertiser to say,
"Hey, I'm gonna do this differently."
And everyone was like, "Yep,
that, we're on the same page."
Like, great.
So fast-forward now where we are now
launching this, and it is really exciting
to be able to enable advertisers to truly
run their media in the way they run their
media, and then when somebody lands on
dollargeneral.com or in their environment,
we're able to also reach them there and
then measure what's going on and optimize.
And that was always the key of the
non-negotiables we established really
early on, is you gotta be able to
measure it, you gotta be able to connect
the identity, and really create this
high-fidelity sort of ecosystem that
people are gonna trust and want to invest
in to know they're gonna drive real
outcomes, uh, with the Dollar General.
James Avery: Yeah, and I think it's, uh,
like, and, you know, I think the, one
of the most important parts, right, is
just thinking about if you're, if you're
a brand or an agency and you're making
a buy, you're using Dollar General data,
you can imagine you're, you're potentially
driving people back to Dollar General.
Yeah.
And then, and then it's kinda
like they're lost to you, right?
And
Matthew Fantazier: you're like, "All
right, like, if, if something happened."
James Avery: Right.
Yeah, yeah.
I go, "I hope they, they saw
my ad there, too," right?
They didn't see some other ads- Yeah
… or they didn't, you know, or they actually
converted, or, you know, I think the,
you know, being able to tie these things
together, you know, makes so much sense.
But what does it, what does it actually,
like, what's it actually look like?
Like, what's it like, uh, what's
the implementation, right?
If I'm an agency and I come in and I
wanna book a campaign, you know, do I,
am I still booking, uh, I'm assuming
I'm still booking, like, two separate
campaigns but the data's coming together?
Or how, how does that work?
Matthew Fantazier: It's all one campaign.
So really you're able to activate
those Doll- Dollar General audiences
in one coordinated strategy.
So instead of having to think about them
as separate campaigns, it's really that.
To where you're saying, "I wanna
reach this consumer, and I wanna
reach them across the open internet
and then on Dollar General if
they- End up landing there, I wanna
be able to serve the messaging
when they land on Dollar General.
And then again, figure out what's, what's
working best, and then be able to make
those optimization decisions around, you
know, hey, this channel or this audience
is working better or worse than others.
Be able to kinda tweak what you're
doing strategically and really be able
to, um, figure out where you're able
to both generate and capture demand
in one, kind of one motion, which is
really the, the gold standard of…
There's so mu- I had this conversation
yesterday with an advertiser,
and it's like you don't really
know what people are gonna do.
People have a million
things on their mind.
They're not always thinking
about buying toothpaste.
But when they're in that moment,
they're in that moment- Right … and
you wanna be able to react to that.
So how do you just make it easy to
connect and figure out, oh, okay, well,
people respond this way, or this audience
is more respondent than this audience.
Okay, like optimize off of that.
You don't, you just
don't know as a marketer.
I- it's one of the kinda easy traps you
can fall into when you're on the brand
side, is thinking you know, or like, "Oh,
I'm going after this thing," and rarely
works out exactly the way you think it is.
Yeah.
So how do you leverage that data
and intelligence to kinda follow the
consumer and meet them where they are?
James Avery: Yeah.
It, it makes sense, and I think when,
you know, you touched on this a little
bit earlier, like, like shopper dollars,
trade dollars, like I think it's
really unlocking spend from agencies
and brands who probably weren't gonna,
you know, potentially weren't gonna
buy on site with Dollar General.
Correct.
Right?
Like that might be the merchant
team or the, the, that sales team.
There might be some other buys going on.
But if you're, you know, some of
these agencies are like, "We're, we're
buying all of our media through The
Trade Desk. We're not gonna go log
into 60 different interfaces," right?
Matthew Fantazier: Yeah.
Well, that's two different things for you.
I think, one, it gets to that, you know,
all those systems fragmentation we talked
about in the very beginning, where there's
all these hundreds, maybe thousands of
different environments- You realistically
cannot manage that if you're a brand.
I had a large team and a large budget, and
I could only manage a handful directly.
Most of it was managed service or
just like, "Here's money, please run
media for me," which is certainly not
the most efficient way to operate,
but it was a operational limitation.
So how can we enable more of a passive
onsite strategy, and then ultimately
over time, one that cuts across, you
know, the marketplace, where if, you
know, you're serving media, then somebody
lands, you know, at a certain retailer
that we're working with, okay, we'll
serve the media there, and then to
your point, you know, make it easy for
the agency or the brand, absolutely.
Take a step out of the place they
may not have considered it, maybe now
they do if it's part of their arsenal.
I mean, it's just another touchpoint.
Retail inventory is
just another touchpoint.
It's a super meaningful one, but
we've kinda created this, uh, this
wall of, like, retail's over here
and traditional publishers are over
there, but it's just another digital
touchpoint that you can, uh, be a part of.
So how do we lower those barriers to entry
and just make it easy, um, and really
motivate people to lean into commerce as
a performance engine across the journeys?
Because now there's a reason to really
use that data across the full funnel
'cause now they're connected, versus-
Right … hey, we're gonna use the
media-- we're gonna use this rich
retail data, but we can't measure it.
Well, that's not great.
So, like, now you get that robust
measurement, why is it special,
why is it worth it, you can see so
much more and feed back into your,
um, optimizations and performance.
James Avery: Yeah, so let's, let's
get into measurement a little bit.
Uh, Andrew Lipsman was, was on a recent
episode, I think, and I think I titled
it, uh, "ROAS is the Root of All Evil."
Um, but he kinda made this compelling
case that, you know, he feels like
ROAS, you know, leads brands astray
and, and kind of- Yeah … you know,
takes them down the wrong road.
Like, what do you, what do you think
about, like, what are, you know, what are,
what are, what are buyers looking for?
Like, what's the-- how are they evaluating
the spend now that they can kinda buy,
you know, across both of these channels?
Matthew Fantazier: Yeah, I would say,
I mean, the bar is definitely going up,
and I think that's w- partly because
the retail side of things has grown
and it's maturing, and now it's being
evaluated as media, which is correct.
It should be thought of that way.
So now it's, all right, well,
that, that bar to say what success
is looks a little bit different.
I, I wouldn't go as far as… Now,
I've said a lot of unkind things
about ROAS in my time, so I'm
not gonna be an apologist here.
I would say it does play a role inside
of an environment to understand,
you know, like for like type of
insights of audiences or channels to
understand kind of what's happening.
It's a signal.
I, I don't think it's worthless,
but it's certainly not the only
signal or the most important signal.
Incrementality is really
what people are looking for.
They want to know what
happened differently.
What wouldn't have happened if I
didn't run this, this media or,
you know, make this investment?
So it's really understanding what
changed because of the investment.
So ROAS or direct conversions,
you know, you risk under-investing
in upper funnel or cutting out
new-to-brand buyers or expanding your
household penetration, so that's,
that can be a little bit dangerous.
So you want to understand that.
You want to understand incrementality.
You want to understand equity, too,
which is kind of a left, you know,
not really in the commerce discussion
directly, but I would be remiss, I would
be a bad former brand marketer if I
didn't give a plug for, you know, brand
equity matters and people considering
your brand and making those, you know,
emotional connections with consumers.
Really, really important to make the
lower funnel, you know, the value you
get out of the upper funnel is lowering
your customer acquisition cost in the
lower funnel ultimately, being more
likable, more top of mind, uh, requiring
fewer steps to get someone to convert.
Um, so that's an- another
important part of the equation.
But from a commerce perspective, it's a
real deep focus on, uh, incrementality.
And the other one that's really
interesting, um, is new to brand.
I think that's been one that's gotten
a lot more traction in the last couple
of years that's been interesting.
Um, it's one I would always
kind of turn my nose up to.
It's like, well, it's new to brand to
you, but- Right … there's somewhat of
a chair shift between, um, customers,
and the way I've, uh, described it
to retailers and advertisers is,
well, again, use it intentionally.
Is it a new to brand buyer who
shops a category at a retailer?
Well, then there's somebody who is walking
down the aisle and not choosing you.
Right.
So there's an opportunity
to talk to that person.
Is it 100% incremental?
No.
But it's somewhat incremental
if they're not, they're not
shopping you at this point.
So, um, there's some pretty
interesting stuff you can do there
and Kind of stitching these things
together is really ultimately what
I think what you need to get to.
James Avery: Yeah.
How do you think, do you think
about, um, you know, something I've
been thinking a lot about lately is
just, like, share of category, too.
Matthew Fantazier: Oh, yeah.
James Avery: I was thinking about,
like, when you're, you know, if
you're, you know, any of the really
competitive categories, like at
a given retailer, what's your,
what's your share of that, right?
Like, can you- Oh … can you move the
needle on that through, through retail?
Matthew Fantazier: 100%.
100%. I mean, that is a huge one that
we talk a lot about is ultimately
the measure of a brand's success
is your share, it's not your sales.
Um, 'cause then it eliminates
all the seasonality or
different dynamics, weather.
I mean, there's all sorts of factors
that can make categories go up and down.
Um, but how are you doing competitively
is a better measure of, you
know, are you winning or losing?
When someone walks down the aisle
or is going through, you know,
scrolling a digital shelf, are
they choosing you more or are they
choosing your competitors more?
Um, and then when you look at
from that sense, the conversation
we have with advertisers is,
like, where do you need to win?
And really understand, like, are you
winning or losing share in different
places, and that's really where you
can get some rich, robust, uh, data
brought in from commerce to understand-
Right … "Hey, I'm, I'm losing share at,
you know, retailer X or Dollar General."
We'll, we'll stick with our friend Austin.
Um, "We're, we're having a
hard time at Dollar General."
Well, you probably wanna tap into
that data set and figure out how
to capture more folks that are
shopping that channel, you know?
It's connected to your business strategy.
So yeah, share is It's
everything on the brand side.
James Avery: Yeah.
And then you even get down to,
I think, you know, looking at
it in, you know, regionally or
even at the store level, right?
100%. Like, you can say, "Oh, like,
this brand of K-Cups does great in the
Midwest at Dollar General, but it's really
suffering in, like, the Deep South- Yeah
… of Dollar General." And you're like,
"Okay, what's going on there," right?
Like, how can we- 100% … what
can we do to, to impact that?
Because it's clearly, you know, it's
not a product problem per se, right?
Like you're- Right … you're clearly
successful in a different region,
but something's different, right?
Right.
Maybe you need to find- Or
Matthew Fantazier: you need a
different messaging strategy
James Avery: or- … a
couple funnel or messaging.
Yeah, messaging doesn't
resonate in that region versus-
Right … a different region.
Yeah.
Matthew Fantazier: Totally.
James Avery: What do you…
And, uh, you know, digging
into a little bit of, you
know, kind of, uh, data, right?
Like, I think- Mm-hmm … you know,
Trade Desk is built on the idea that
better data leads to better outcomes.
Matthew Fantazier: Mm-hmm.
James Avery: What, uh, you know, we've
talked a lot about, like, retail media
data, but what, you know, what makes
it different than other audience data?
Or what, what can retailers do
to, to kinda make that first-party
data as valuable as possible?
You know- Yeah, I mean- … 'cause
we talked about there's, you
know, data everywhere, right?
You can go get it from-
Matthew Fantazier: There is
… James Avery: all the credit
unions, and all kinds of people
will sell you tons of data.
Matthew Fantazier: Well, commerce
data is so valuable because it is
reflecting real consumer behavior.
It is somebody made a, they
voted with their dollars, right?
Or they planned a trip or did something.
We have a really deterministic
view of what's going on.
It's not inferred.
There's a time and a place for inferred
and modeled of course, but, uh, the real
power is that real transactions and real
intent, so that's really, really powerful.
But I think for a commerce player
to really take advantage of that
is to really, again, I'll go back
to lean into what makes it special.
So it's not just data for data's sake,
or you're gonna buy reach because
you're gonna buy this retail data.
To me, that is trying to sell
a Ferrari in a Ford dealership.
Technically they're both cars, but one
does a whole lot more than the other.
So if you're just putting them side by
side of I need, you know, females 18
to 35, or I'm looking for, you know,
very broad, you know, people who buy
snacks or something, it's like, all
right, well that's- You can get that
from retail, but you can get a lot
of the way there maybe in other ways.
But are there deeper insights you can get?
Are, can you find people who are
more likely to buy innovation?
So if you're launching a new product,
I wanna talk to the people who are more
likely to trial a new product, or people
who are more omni-shoppers, and I'm, I'm
lagging in my online share, getting back
to, like, where am I winning or losing.
I can use retail data to go after the
folks I know that are gonna do online
shopping or tap into, you know, a
DoorDash, Instacart, or, you know-
James Avery: Yeah
… Matthew Fantazier: people like
that, and be really intentional.
So creating the, um, the segmentations
and the data in a way that is really
sh- helping that value proposition
shine, and helping to make sure that
it's activated the right way across
the media ecosystem can really create
a powerful, uh, tool for an advertiser.
And then by having more intentional
structures in place, uh, you know,
then you get into the AI conversation
of, okay, well, it's allowing it
to now learn more about what you're
trying to do, who you're trying to
reach, and then drive real business
outcomes based upon that strategy.
So better data does lead to
better outcomes, but it has
to be used in the right way.
So, you know, great data used very
simply may not drive a different
outcome, but are you really using
it to its full, full potential?
Yeah.
James Avery: Yeah, I think a lot
of the stuff like, you know, like
you mentioned earlier, like new
to category, new to brand, right?
Right.
It's like you can, you know, it's like
that, you know, a lot of these other
data sources can't, can't tell you that.
Can't say- Correct … "Hey, here's
a, here's a set of people that have
bought Pepsi at Dollar General for
the last 10 years." It's like- "Have
never, never bought a Coke," right?
Right.
And it's like, all right.
Like, if we're, if we wanna have a
hard challenge here, we're gonna try to
convert, convert that guy or gal, right?
Like- Right … and bring them over.
So looking at kind of the
programmatic retail media, we've
been talking about it a bunch.
You know, we've talked about kind
of what, what we've been working
on, uh, together, but where,
where do you think this is going?
Like, what's, what's the, what's the
next couple years look like for this?
Matthew Fantazier: Yeah, I mean, I think,
one, I think we're gonna- we're gonna
see more of the conversation merge with
just the broader media conversation,
which I think is a really good thing.
Um, I've said that I actually
don't think we're gonna be talking
about retail media in five years.
I think that's gonna
become an archaic term.
I think they're- we're gonna talk more
about retail data, retail measurement,
retail inventory, like what it really
is, and really, this is my dream,
we'll see if we get all the way there,
but eliminate sort of the retail
media language from our vocabulary.
It's not to say there's not a
place for that type of activation.
There absolutely is.
That is trade dollars and driving
sales and it, you know, if I'm trying
to-- if I'm the person who's trying
to drive sales at Dollar General in my
organization, you better believe I'm
gonna be going after Dollar General
shoppers and their channels and maximizing
the heck out of that investment.
That'll never change.
What'll, what should change is that we are
thinking more holistically and activating
As one communications plan of which
Dollar General activation is a piece of
it, and that we are able to say, "I wanna
create awareness," or, you know, of a
new product or just remind people to, you
know, stock up on sunscreen or whatever
product I'm supporting, and then when they
end up in that environment, I'm pulling
them through and capturing that demand.
I think that's where we're gonna go.
And I, I see the interoperability and
retailers really starting to see that
they play a role in a marketplace
as really the next phase of growth.
Because there's only so much you can do
in a silo, and that's the shopper sort
of element that, again, that's not gonna
go away, but how does, how do you connect
these commerce strategies to create more
of a unified media plan that spans both
open internet, retail, and driving really
validated outcomes across all of that?
That's where I think this is going,
and I think that's really the
growth trajectory for the industry.
Um, whether we like it or not, I think
that's where it's heading because
the, the s- we're hitting the ceiling
on the kinda traditional sense of
retail media, and now we need to
look for that next phase of growth.
James Avery: Yeah.
And where does-- I know, I know CTV has
been a big focus for The Trade Desk.
Yeah.
Where does, where does CTV fit into this?
Matthew Fantazier: See,
t- I mean, it's so funny.
I, I think back to when I first was
getting pitched CTV years ago, and
it's like, "This thing is tiny." Like,
who the heck's streaming television?
Now it's over half or
around half of time- Yeah
spent with television, so it's enormous.
Um, it's an enormous channel.
More and more of it's becoming
ad-supported, and we're seeing that
as, uh, both the kinda traditional
premium players like the Peacocks
and others, Disney, uh, Netflix
bring in, uh, ad-supported and grow
for, you know, disproportionately
their ad-supported subscriber base.
And then also the growth of some of the
fast, uh, players, your, uh, Plutos and
Tubis, which are honestly, I mean, I don't
know if you've spent any time with them.
They're fantastic experiences.
They're really- Yeah … pretty
slick, uh, for a free product.
So they're, it's a huge and
growing part of the ecosystem, and
it's one of the most influential
moments of the consumer journey.
So if you're not thinking about it
and thinking about how you can apply
data to that, uh, close the loop,
and I think that's the promise that
we, you know, that's the other end
of the promise is if we can show the
performance, you have to prove the
performance or else no one's gonna
invest in the data or the measurement.
But if you can do it in a way to
basically prove your keep and say, "Hey,
you're gonna drive a better outcome
by targeting the right people across
this really premium environment,"
that's an incredibly important part,
and it's, it's a capability that
basically did not exist five years
ago, um- Two, three years ago at scale.
I mean, it's really a recent
phenomenon that you could buy
television programmatically.
It's, you know, I not that long
ago was buying day parts and, you
know- Yeah … programming, and
you don't have to do that anymore.
That's still how you're gonna buy
some of it, of course, with linear.
That's not gone.
It's not totally dead.
Um, but this is scaled, and this is a
way you could really drive some serious
impact, um, with the right people
and make sure that you're connecting
with the consumers you need to reach.
James Avery: Yeah, I mean, even like,
and even a lot of the, like, traditional
linear, right, has got some of it you
can buy that programmatically now, right?
Matthew Fantazier: Yeah,
James Avery: I mean, that's, that's true.
It's not, obviously not like, you
know, if it's getting, like, an antenna
to my house, but right, or if it's-
Matthew Fantazier: Yeah … you
James Avery: know, if it's coming in
through- Set top boxes and stuff like
that, yeah … YouTube TV or all these
other kinda ways that people are getting
it- Absolutely … like, you can, you
can start to address it that way, yeah.
Matthew Fantazier: It's,
James Avery: it's changing-
So does that, does that kinda,
does that tie in together?
Just you just think about like, "Hey,
I can run a CTV campaign, an open web
campaign, you know, a outside-" That's how
I would do it … retail media campaign.
This is just, this is just one
campaign that's kinda running,
running across- I agree with you
all of that to some extent.
Matthew Fantazier: This is my marketing
dream, and what I, you know, what I
hope we get to because consumers have
such a fragmented and, you know, their,
their media experience is so vast, and
there's so… And it's so on demand, too.
I mean, that's the other thing is so
much control sits with the consumer.
So it's very easy to pause, to move
away, to pick up your phone, to
change apps, to look up whatever.
You're all over the place, and that's
kind of, that's just the norm today.
So buying media in a more rigid way
is really f- really inefficient in
a lot of ways versus being like,
"I know who I'm trying to reach and
the outcome I'm trying to achieve."
And, you know, the, the way we, we can
do it now is to be able to say, "I just
wanna find that person throughout their
day, and then figure out what's working
best," that if I'm trying to reach James
and you are gonna spend a bunch of time
on Spotify, that I'm gonna show up there,
and then when you go to dollargeneral.com
to think about your purchase later on
today, that I can find you there, and
no, you're not quite ready to go to the
store yet, and you flip on, you know,
Netflix to watch whatever, you know,
the new season of "Tires" that just
came out, and you're like, "Oh, I'm
gonna get served an ad," or WWE Raw on
Monday night, um, you're, you're in that
environment, and I wanna reach you there.
And then, you know, I'm gonna have
a completely different journey.
I'm gonna -- I might listen to different
audio type of thing, and I might
watch Paramount, and, you know, maybe
I'm gonna shop at another outlet.
You gotta find, you gotta meet
the consumer where they are.
So I think that's, that's the key
is how do we connect those dots?
How do we create that connective
tissue to really just focus on driving
outcomes and focusing on what behavior
I'm looking to affect versus I'm buying
radio, I'm buying TV, I'm buying display.
Um, you theoretically should
not care what you're buying.
You want to maximize the output.
James Avery: Yeah.
So that leads into like, uh,
we're kind of wrapping up here.
What, um, what's one, you know,
kind of last thing, what, what's
one question you wish more people
in this industry were, were asking?
Matthew Fantazier: I think it's
really understanding, like,
what's the job to be done?
Like, what am I actually
trying to achieve here?
So you could say, like, what
did the, you know, what did my
a- advertising actually change?
So, like, that gets to your measurement,
but really understanding, like, what
is that strategy I'm trying to move?
And it, it's very easy to fall into
this trap of, "Yeah, I'm buying TV
'cause I need to be on TV," versus,
"I need to get people to walk into a
Dollar General and pick up my product.
That's where I'm not winning
today, so I need to figure out
how to solve that problem."
Once you identify that, now you can
have a much richer conversation with
your, your brand team, your agency,
your retail partners, and really
start to be intentional about your
strategy, and then think about, um,
how do I drive that incremental output?
I, I think the other thing,
if I've… So that's more on,
like, the brand side of things.
If I think about the retail side, what I
wish more people would think about is how
they fit in the broader media ecosystem.
The, the reality is brands are not
gonna buy through a single silo, and
if they do, it's gonna be limited.
So how do we think about interoperability
and how this can all work together and
help all boats rise so that they are part
of that media ecosystem and that commerce
ecosystem and win their fair share?
Because right now
they're not, uh, frankly.
It's, you know, the media dollars are not
going in, you know, ratio to their share.
Um, and they're not necessarily able to
connect the dots of that full me- that
one media plan we were just talking about.
It's not, we're not really there yet,
but that's what we have to build to, and
that's where the interoperability, the
onsite to offsite connection that we're
working on together is so critical to
start to build those bridges to create the
opportunity for a brand to actually do it.
We've had an infrastructure
problem historically where
you just couldn't do it.
We're solving that now.
Yeah.
Now it's a matter of changing
the strategic problem.
We have to help people think about
it a little bit differently, and that
takes a little bit of time, takes
a little bit of effort, but I think
it's a worthy cause for us to take up.
James Avery: That's awesome.
And if, uh, if there's retailers out there
that wanna, wanna get in touch, what's
the, what's the best way to, to find you?
Matthew Fantazier: Oh, man.
I'm… Well, it helps to have a unique
last name, so I'm real easy to find.
Um, so you can find me
on LinkedIn, email me.
Um, y- you know, I'm, I'm out there.
I'm pretty available.
James Avery: Awesome.
Well, Matt, thank you
so much for coming on.
This has been great.
Matthew Fantazier: Yeah.
Thanks for having me.
James Avery: Thanks for tuning
in to Unlocking Retail Media.
If you enjoyed this episode,
don't forget to subscribe and
share this show with your network.
We'll be back soon with more
insights to help you navigate
the future of retail media.
See you next time.