030 | The Future of Insights is sitting at the bar | with Paul Thomas, Global Insight Director at Beam Suntory (London, UK).

Show Notes

Episode Deep-Dive Analysis Available at maffeodrinks.com 

In episode 030, I had the pleasure of talking to Paul Thomas. He is the Global Head of Shopper Insights at Beam Suntory. He has previously worked for Asahi International, Diageo, Ferrero, and Ipsos. He has an incredible global experience in Drinks Industry Insights. It was a pleasure to discuss it with such pragmatism and common sense. I hope you will enjoy our chat

(00:50); Insights in the Field
(13:43); Adapting to Market Conditions
(19:40); Chasing Trends; A Very Bad Idea
(23:30); Why Do We Have To Chase Gen Z?
(34:26); What A Bar Tender Needs To Know About Your Brand
(36:18); Penetration Vs Spread
(42:47); How Much Localization Is Good?
(51:25); Bridging Categories
(55:47); Insights At The Bar Level

About The Host: Chris Maffeo

About The Guest: Paul Thomas

Interested in Group Subscriptions, Keynote Presentations or Advisory? You can get in touch at [e-mail] or find out more at maffeodrinks.com 

Creators and Guests

Host

Chris Maffeo

Drinks Leadership Advisor | Bridging Bottom-Up Reality & Top-Down Expectations

Guest

Paul Thomas

Global Head of Insights | Suntory Global Spirits

What is MAFFEO DRINKS Leadership Insights?

The MAFFEO DRINKS Podcast is a leading drinks industry podcast delivering frontline insights for drinks leadership.

For founders, directors, distributor MDs, and hospitality leaders navigating the tension between bottom-up reality and top-down expectations.

20+ years building brands across 30+ markets. Each episode features drinks builders: founders, distributors, commercial directors, sharing how the drinks industry actually works. Not the conference version. Honest conversations.

Insights come from sitting at the bar.

Beyond episodes: advisory for leadership teams, subscription with episode deep dives and principles to navigate your own reality.

Beer, wine, spirits, Low and non-alcoholic.

Bottom-up Insights & Episode Deep Dives at https://maffeodrinks.com

Welcome to the Maffeo Drinks
Podcast.

I'm your host Chris Maffeo in
episode 30.

I had the pleasure of talking to
Paul Thomas.

He is the Global Head of Shopper
Insights at BIM Santori.

He has previously worked for
Asahi International, Diagio,

Ferrero and Ipsos.
He has an incredible global

experience in drinks industry in
sites.

It was a pleasure to discuss it
with such pragmatism and common

sense.
I hope you will enjoy our chat.

Hi, Paul, how you doing?
Hey, Chris, Good to be here with

you today.
Nice.

So where were you calling from?
London.

So, no, I'm I'm in the beautiful
countryside of Surrey, lots of

very good English pubs that I
try and support as much as I

can.
We see some good rate of sales

spikes whenever I'm in town,
that's for sure.

They they must be happier about
it.

So let's start with a very
interesting topic, because I

consider you being the king of
insights because you've been

doing insights and shopper for
quite a while.

I might use that nickname in the
future.

Thank you.
That's great.

You can do that.
You're going to that you're

going to say that it it came
from the Mafia drinks podcast

it's not from you.
And and I remember I think we

actually met on LinkedIn on a
post that I that I use and

repurpose very often which is
that the future of insights is

sitting at the bar and I feel
that very often be especially

big companies get trapped into
these let's test it and let's

understand what insights or do
we have and what consumers are

saying and let's have focus
groups and all these kind of

things and we feel we lose the
touch with the trade and we

actually go into the bar and and
I remember we had a few back and

forth on on comments on on on
that one.

So what's your take on this
topic?

Yeah, I think the honest truth
is that businesses confuse the

word insight with the word
research.

Research is something you pay
for.

You go to an agency and as you
say, they run a big quantitative

study or focus groups or whoever
knows what they do.

But there's good old fashion
using your eyes.

I've always said that the best
insights are when you have your

customers or your consumers
insight, when you can see them,

when you can talk to them.
Some of the best learnings I've

had in my career haven't been
paying an agency £100,000 to do

a segmentation.
It's been talking to a

bartender.
It's been trying to understand

why a consumer has chosen A
versus B, which by the time you

do an online research, they've
forgotten you need to be in the

moment, and I've done that from.
Sitting in bars in Abidjan in

the Ivory Coast to sitting in
premium cocktail bars in London,

good insight.
Persons should want to talk to

their customers and consumers
love that, love that.

And how can companies go back to
the field and not get trapped

into this ivory tower instead of
Ivory Coast kind of kind of

example?
Because like the feeling I get

that I remember from my old
corporate days.

And sometimes I would, I would
speak to marketing people and

they would say, Oh yeah, I
haven't been invited to the

trade by the sales team.
So I, I don't know, I haven't

been to to bars.
And I was feeling like, what do

you need an invitation to go to,
to bars?

Can't you go on your free time
on during weekend or weekdays or

whatever with your spouse or
with your friends so that

there's a feeling that is a
trade belongs only to sales and

then it's their call and it's
their fault if sales don't

happen?
I think there's a little bit of

presumptuousness in most
marketeers, which is our

consumers are like us.
When you work for one of the big

drinks players and you have your
central London office or New

York office, wherever it might
be, and people are wealthy,

normally white, normally have
worked in the industry for 20

years, and then people tend to
think that our consumers must be

like that.
I remember when I I was doing

some work on the gin brand
Gordon's, trying to and saying

to the marketer the kind of pubs
where Gordon's is consumed.

And I still remember the
marketer at the time saying, oh,

I'd never go to a place like
that.

So thinking that all our brands
only exist in the top 1% of bars

is one of the problems.
Not seeing it as real work to

your point, will sit there in
front of a Project Gantt chart

and tweak it for hours.
We'll see that as work.

But somehow going out not.
And also I think that's just

unfortunately COVID has
exacerbated it.

People don't talk.
Any more people are nervous

about face to face interaction.
I love going and talking to

bartenders, to consumers, even
me as a big fat white guy, I

turned up in Madagascar and
butted into conversations with

local guys drinking local rum
and we ended up leaving the bar

together at 2 AMA.
Lot of people just don't have

that confidence, that
willingness to talk to

consumers, bartenders because I
think we've all lost a little

bit of practice of face to face
interaction and.

Particularly as more and more
people work from home and work

from home quite a lot as well.
There's nothing wrong with it.

We've forgotten that.
Actually, human interaction is

what is the bread and butter.
I fear what you're saying

because even when I do trade
visits with people like they

they look at me like if I have a
kind of like a magic stick to be

able to talk to bartenders and
so on.

Like I'm gifted now.
Like, I'm taking them to the zoo

and I and I can talk to animals.
And it's so easy because most

obviously talking about the more
professional end of bartending.

Most bartenders bloody love
talking about drinks.

They want to tell you about the
recipe they've made or the extra

special cocktail that they've
concocted because they love it.

They'll always talk about it.
Very often it's more stopping

them talking about it, which can
be the challenge.

But yeah, people are nervous or
we go out and we do.

I've seen lots of examples,
particularly when you go round

like more developing markets,
Chris, where they know that

someone senior's coming round.
So the four or five bars, they

know they're taking you on.
The sales team have just it all

up.
They've made sure your brands

are perfectly stocked.
They've basically given the.

Bartender are tenor to make sure
that it's your brand that they

recommend that the so it's quite
artificial.

Just get out there, there are
pubs, bars.

Just go and talk to people and
honestly you'll learn more in

that afternoon than you will in
the £100,000 project with a

research agency.
It it reminds me in my previous

corporate days, I used to manage
the Americas and and some of the

markets and I went to Chile, to
Santiago de Chile and I was the

one that they had prepared it
for and I had briefed that the

guys don't prepare anything.
I want to see the reality.

It was actually a disaster even
if and it was like on and off

trade and this mom and pop
store, you cannot fix those like

that.
They are just like wild animals.

And then I remembered that one
of the safe guys there literally

felt sick like physically sick
after the visit.

They couldn't come for dinner.
He was really, really sick, like

how ashamed he was or the mess
he had showed me.

And I spoke to the to the team
there and I said that's exactly

what I wanted to see, that I I
thank them for that because I

want to see the out of stock in
the fridge and I want to see the

reality.
I want to see the guy

complaining about the pricing in
the market.

And that's exactly why I flew 17
bloody hours to come here.

Otherwise, like I could just see
it on PowerPoint.

You.
Know, I remember once I was in

Ghana.
And we were having lots of

conversations with the Guinness,
which is huge in West Africa.

The Guinness brand house about
they wanted to push sort of

posters and wall plaques, lots
of branding onto the inside of

the bars.
And consistently the local

market said it won't work, we
don't want that stuff.

So I went out there and I was.
Within 5 minutes I realized why

because most of the bars turn
the lights off to save money and

the only light comes from the
TV.

Or from something illuminated on
the walls, Guinness could have

spent all that money with all
this beautiful point of sale

materials and no one would have
been able to see it.

And again, you don't get that
unless you go because you think,

oh, in a bar, in a car must be
the same as in London, right?

Because that's my only point of
reference.

There is a point also in the
fact that some of this kind of

like vicious circle and catch 22
one insights and research comes

from the fact that some people
have lost touch with their own

trade, as you were saying.
So they they feel the relegate

entree to some specially gifted
people that can talk to

bartenders and can go to bars at
even like lazer hours.

And so it's like let's ask this
guy or this girl rather than

actually realizing how simple it
actually is to go to a bar.

And so it's like, oh let's ask
Paul.

Paul knows because Paul is the
entree guy.

And he will know.
They'll delegate it to their

insights team very often.
Can you go and talk to

bartenders and find out?
Can you go and talk to consumers

and find out?
I've worked for two Japanese

companies now, Beam Suntory and
Asahi previously, and the

Japanese have a wonderful way of
combining many ideas into one

word.
And there's a word called gemba.

Gemba is something that we focus
on a lot of beam, which is it

means being where the value is.
So you need to spend as much

time as you can where the value
is created and the value is

created, where money is
transferred, where money is

handed over.
That might be in the off trade,

that might be in the on trade,
but that is actually where

you'll understand the drinks
industry.

I can read 1000 IWSR reports and
know nothing.

That's it's a great word, and
it's something that we're really

trying to push, really trying to
push, because most organizations

don't go out.
Don't spend the time.

A former employee of mine, I
won't mention, which won't let

people buy drinks on expenses in
the alcohol industry.

If you're not buying your
competitors product and you're

not talking to people about,
well why are you choosing that

rather than my product?
How the hell are you going to

know your brand tracker's not
going to tell you, that's for

sure.
Yeah, it's almost seen as too

much fun sometimes I think yes.
Yeah, they're just going to the

bar.
They're just going to get.

Pissed or whatever drunk.
You can cut whatever words you

want out of that you're you're
nailing a great point because

because there is a perception
like I see myself with like I I

spent all summer actually
working and I went to bars and I

didn't go to bars with friends.
I went with sales teams.

I went with clients customers
and and and so on.

And then like some friends of
mine they were like, oh, you

never call me when you go out.
And I was like, yeah, because

I'm worth.
I'm not and I joke about this

and I just and I always say I
just drink for for work.

I don't drink for leisure.
And it's there is a

misperception in the trade that
an expense on a drink is

something that is fun rather
than an investment into insights

or anything.
And actually that leads to an to

a point that I was discussing on
a previous episode, actually

yesterday on the fact that many
brands, especially the smaller

ones, don't see that as a
valuable investment.

So they rather do a a huge party
which might be useless because

there's no distribution or
presence, rather than actually

spending the 1st $1000 they get
as an investment, actually going

to bars and ordering a drink and
talking to people.

It's not just small companies.
Lots of companies are very

willing to spend a lot of money
on things.

The marketing team will enjoy
Big parties, big celebrations.

It's going to look great on
their Instagram.

They can wear a nice frock, pick
a special shirt.

Whereas actually going, you
know, I'm going to go around my

my top 10 bars and I'm going to
talk to each bartender and I'm

going to try and work out why
they will continue to list my

product, the the story and the
sales that they give to

consumers to choose my product,
how my product looks on the

menu.
That's valuable work.

A nice party might be good for
PR.

Might be good to create some
office rumors and some gossip

and building on what you're
saying now, like on the selling

store and how the bartender for
example.

Explain to people and how the
sales team first explain it to

bartender in.
In your experience what's the

best way?
Because I have this feeling that

it let's say at least my
approach is that a brand always

starts from the liquid when from
an organolectic perspective

there is something like OK, is
it peated, non peated if it's

whiskey or Smokey and non Smokey
if it's a mezcal or you know it

comes from there.
And I I've got this steak rather

than category.
I like to take the taste profile

kind of experiment because you
may be a person who likes I

don't know sweet or maybe you
like smoky flavors so I could

trade you into a mezcal because
you drink ilay kind of thing.

So what is your experience and
what you like the the starting

point so to say in developing
your selling story?

No, it's great.
Look, the way I always look at

it is ultimately the bartender
doesn't need another whiskey.

The bartender doesn't need
another gin, particularly gin at

the moment.
There's so many.

So very often brands will go and
they'll talk to the trade, but

they'll talk entirely from the
position of the brand.

This is our history we were
founded in.

We use hand picked this and we
use.

Can forage, that doesn't matter.
What matters is how will it

increase the margin for the bar
and how will it allow them to

create something they can't
currently do.

They don't need 15 strawberry
flavour gins right?

But they might need a different
flavour gin because it could

make a cock so they can't
currently offer.

So to your point, I think it's
around whether flavour profile

is your lead.
It's around always being clear

about what your product will
deliver to bartenders.

They can't already do so they've
got limited space.

And if if you're just offering
them and me too or something

else, what's the point?
And to to this last point you're

making, there's something that I
see that it's let's say it's

where insides get wrong, you
know somehow like the in

innovation for example.
So there's a lot of stuff.

There's innovation coming into
the market that has been like

lab engineered, no rather than a
flavor that the market needs.

And there's a pragmatic take
that I have on these things.

But I I challenge myself
sometimes.

Like I was discussing this
actually with Alex Fritzer, the

owner of Lantiquadi and Napoli.
And he was saying like,

sometimes we as bartenders need
to be influenced by what happens

in supermarkets.
Because if a big company is

launching a whatever orange
something, it might be that

they've got some good results on
something that at scale consumer

wants and we may have missed
that.

What's the right way of of
playing with this on the lab

versus market?
Because you also don't want to

just listen to five bartenders
and then create something from

them.
Though it's a really good

question, there are all sorts of
horrifying statistics around why

innovations don't work and how
many of them don't and things

like that.
Companies will very often start

innovation.
Based on what they've seen their

competitors do particularly the
big players, they will wait for

a small craft player to create
something and then they'll make

their own version, right.
So they're they're typically

driven by what's already there,
but they want to make their

version of it or what they can
do right.

What can we make?
We've we've talked about the on

trade as being one thing and it
is not the on trade is.

You can divide it by price tier.
You can divide it by type of

venue, by chain, versus
independent, all those things.

There will be certain types of
bars and bartenders where you

absolutely want to seed your
product according to their

needs.
So for more prestige, for more

valuable items, you want the
best bartenders in the world to

support it, to want it, to list
it.

Because that's where you're
going to build the equity and

the desire for those brands.
However, if you're a a

mainstream gin brand and you
want to launch a pink version or

a strawberry version or orange
version, actually you want it in

the off trade first because
people are going to try on promo

and then go, oh, I'll try that
the next time I'm I'm in the dog

and duck.
It all depends on your sort of

moment in the on trade.
Am I trying to get something

that's?
Super premium show my

connoisseurship in which case if
I've seen it in the supermarket

first it's going to feel a bit
rubbish or actually is money a

little bit tight and seeing in a
supermarket gives me reassurance

to try it at the bar.
So it can work both ways

depending on the type of venue
and bartender you're talking to.

But often by the way innovation
is you know they have talked to

either side of it off or on
trade.

It's more what can we do and?
What about consumers?

What about competitors already
done?

Yeah, there's a lot of stuff to
be done on probably like on on

managing expectations as well.
Now because I when I work with

companies like this, this a
tendency they want the debrief

is let's get into the 50 best
bars.

And as you can't do that like
nobody, if it's on promo 3-4

times a year in supermarkets
chains, exactly.

No bartender will ever want to
have it.

But there is an opportunity in
regular on trade, more casual

bars and restaurants.
But let's be clear that we can't

have it in top trade.
I was just negotiating with a

bar and they just told me like
no, these three brands, no

chance we're going to list it
and I agree with them.

But then when I need to report
that back to a client then it's

just OK How do I say?
That and this is where this

naivety and this ego sometimes
comes in, Chris.

Every brand manager wants to say
that we're in this the top bar.

We're in Salmon Guru in Madrid,
we're in the top ten around the

world.
Where you want to be is where

your products going to sell.
So it might not be the top 1%,

might be the top 20%, might be
the top 50%.

If I want to make money and I
want to retire, which would be

nice, I'd launch a mainstream
product because they will be 100

times the size of the most
special prestige and quality

spirit in the world.
Now those spirits are beautiful

and lovely, but they'll never
sell much.

We shouldn't be snobby about the
other half of the on trade where

most of these products are
drunk.

Go down the Dog and duck and see
Big Pat behind the bar selling

your gin and tonic and it's
beefy to or it's Gordon's.

Those brands are worth hundreds
of millions.

Let's not be snobby about them
and manage your expectations.

You're right.
You're not going to get that

brand into the Ritz.
You know, what's your take on

this one?
Like when the brief is about,

OK, let's rejuvenate.
I mean, there's a big buzzword

that is better than being used
everywhere now, like

rejuvenating brands or you know,
like a huge gin brand or huge

whiskey brand and and so on.
What's the the play that

innovation can have in that one?
So it can be pure liquid.

I mean, going back to Gordon's
launching Gordon's Pink

revolutionize that brand.
And suddenly made it a cool

brand that young people wanted
again, right?

It can just be simple
innovation.

It can also be serve strategy.
Serve your drink in a new way

that no one else has.
Take the guys at that Campari

with Aperol.
They've taken over the world

with a serve that liquid's
existed for hundreds of years.

It's not wildly different from a
Campari Spritz, really.

It's pretty much the same stuff,
however, by finding the right

glassware slice of orange.
Launching it in the on trade

simple serve strategy, that's
also innovation.

We tend to think of innovation
as being new products.

Innovation can be a new serve, a
new garnish, new glassware, new

way of talking about the brand.
With Barton, there's all of

that.
It's still innovation in my

world.
There's a lot about consistency

and discipline in doing that
because whenever I'm talking

about, for example, Apero
Spritz.

They there is a tendency to to
say, OK, yeah, look at how they

grow.
Like they've done it for 20

years.
It took them 20 years to do like

an overnight success now and and
they stopped doing a serve or

some people stopped doing a
serve or something just because

they got bored or because the
brand manager has done it for a

year and a half and then it's
like it's not consistent.

This is a real challenge.
So marketeers, we talk about the

on trade having a problem with
rotation of staff, but it's also

the same with marketing
directors.

They all move on.
Marketing managers, they all

move on.
They go to different brands,

different companies and everyone
wants to come in and change it.

The brands that have typically
done well, I mean, look at

Hendrix, You still wouldn't
expect Hendrix to be of a slice

of cucumber.
It would be weird not to have

it.
Guinness, if it's not poured in

two parts, I'm not going to be
happy with it because they've

created a ritual, you know,
probably and the people at

Guinness might shoot me.
It probably doesn't really make

that much difference to taste,
but by innovating, by getting

people to expect it in that way,
you're never going to change it.

They are brands for me.
Look at Magnus 10 years ago.

Put a couple of ice cubes in it
new serve and it became the most

popular side of brand in the UK
I.

Remember we both work on on
petroni on on the different ages

like we didn't have the pleasure
to work together.

Otherwise it would have been big
fan in the meeting.

I've seen you in the bar, that's
for sure.

And that's what I meant above a
meeting room pet only with a

glassware the glass that pet
only launched was then copied by

all beer brands kind of thing
the serve on pills or quill with

with the foam and the three type
of pores and so on.

And again it's it's about the
discipline in in that and also

on playing for example when it
comes to garnish to to be your

previous example, I feel it's
about having it.

Doesn't make sense like the
cucumber to your example.

It makes sense because there is
cucumber in Hendrix, you know.

But it wouldn't make sense
otherwise.

Now and sometimes I feel
companies are oh, Hendrix has

done cucumber, let's do the
cucumber handgum.

But you haven't got any cucumber
anywhere in your recipe or but

you don't talk about that at
all.

So what's the, what's your point
of putting the cucumber in?

I completely agree.
And it goes about someone you

were saying earlier.
I think all of this industry

starts with the liquid.
Everything about the brand

positioning should be about the
liquid Guinness made of more or

why?
Because it's made with roasted

barley, Peroni made with the
beautiful Italian wheat and

lemon and all of those things.
Everything in this industry

needs to come from the liquid
and be true to the liquid.

And that's where brands like in
the past Smirnoff have lost

their way.
They're doing much better now.

They used to be all about triple
distilled and purity and

quality.
Then suddenly they had cherry

baked.
Well flavor, hazelnut flavor,

bubble gum flavor.
Like, be true to what you are

and stick to it.
And and that's also because.

Copying what competitors are
doing and thinking about that,

like it comes back to my mind
the good old absolute vodka now

like on they were launching all
these flavors in the 90s and

early 2000s and it was like
almost like a collectible item

now and then probably because
they were doing well then

everybody else started to jump
on the wagon and and say, but if

it's not part of your DNA, why
to do that?

And and this is the thing on
going back to rejuvenation of

the brand now like there is
something like every meeting I

attend, it's just yeah we're
focusing on Gen.

Z now it's back in back in our
earlier days.

I'm going to go on.
I'm going to go on a real rant

about this.
I'm really looking forward to

this part please.
Go I I let you do that.

I'm.
I'm millennial.

But an old millennial,
increasingly old millennial with

each day.
I cannot.

And it's not just, it's not just
alcohol by the way, it's the

marketing industry in general.
Why do we go after young people?

But particularly in the case of
alcohol, young people do not

have disposable income, right?
That's number one.

They can't go to the kind of
bars that we want to target.

At the top end, they are
drinking less.

We know that.
It's not quite as tragic as all

the media makes it send sound.
There are lots of young people

who still drink.
Responsibilities coming in,

mindfulness is coming in, all of
these things are great.

So you're trying to target your
brands at people who are

drinking less and have less
money.

Whereas in the UK we have this
generation of baby boomers, they

it's a little bit of a
stereotype, but they bought a

house for £10,000 and now it's
worth a million.

Their kids have left, they have
loads of money, they can spend

it, they enjoy drinking, and
these guys now will live for

another 30 years.
It might come a little bit from

Byron Sharpe, The theory of the
leaky bucket, right, where

literally your consumers are
dying, you need to bring new

ones in, yes, but it's so
ludicrous that you try and

target it.
And it's so obvious when brands

are like I call it, dad dancing.
When a brand targets what is

clearly something that creative
agency has told them is really

popular with Gen.
Z, Gen.

Z and it's just cringe worthy
and it's just embarrassing.

And again, let's talk about
Peroni beautiful brand. 70% of

its volume in the UK was sold to
over 40 year olds because they

had the money and they.
Could afford it, they could

afford it.
And you can try and target it to

18 year olds and you can try and
give message, you know, around

brand, purpose and inclusivity
and sustainability, which are

all the things that this cohort
are coming through wanting.

They still won't buy you.
They ain't got the money,

they've got no money.
So what's the point?

Try to explain to A to a broke
student to buy a pint for £8.

And I think to be honest, it's
also connected to the fact that

I'm a little bit allergic to as
well on this target consumers

and target personas and so on,
because for me going back to the

liquid.
For for me it's all about like

the taste profile and the and
the occasion that I'm going to

enjoy.
And I always bring up this

example.
You may see me at the Pride

Castle in a gala events Mead
wearing a suit, sippy champagne

and then you may see me in
shorts and T-shirt in a check

pub having a having a Schnitzel
and drinking 5 beers and a

sausage.
It's still me.

I'm not like a fancy guy or a
cheap guy or it's about the

occasion.
And if I when I go out with my

wife, like if she orders a
spritz on a terrace, I may go

for a spritz on a terrace.
I may not.

I will not go for an old fashion
on a terrace in a Piazza in

Florence, because that's the
occasion.

Also, I think there should be
more communication about the

occasion and rather about the
demographics of who's supposed

to drink this.
That's completely right.

There was a wonderful thing that
went around LinkedIn a while ago

which said and I'm going to get
the exact figures wrong, but if

you target if your demographic
was a 60 year old man who's a

multi millionaire, married.
With kids, it could either be

now King Charles or it could be
Ozzy Osbourne.

That is how worldly.
More the same year, you know,

the same exactly.
They are the same with Gen.

Z.
Some of them are not drinking,

moderating, worried about the
health, full of sort of

confidence problems, caring
about the environment.

There are also lots of them that
are still going out and drinking

and doing things they shouldn't
and racking up notches on the

bedpost to targeting Gen.
Z as one cohort doesn't work.

What we often talk about now we
sort of builds a little bit on

occasion is what we call a
demand space.

So it's almost the intersection
of where you are versus the

needs you have as a consumer.
So like for example, if the need

I have is around wanting to show
off, wanting to look my best,

then I'm probably going to
choose a particular type of

venue.
I'm not going to go to the

weather spoons down the pub to
try and show off the people, but

I might go and choose a really
premium cocktail bar in that

cocktail bar.
It will inevitably lead me to

make different choices than if I
were in the weather spoons.

So and the the people that are
in that venue with me are more

likely to be having that
occasion than they would be in

the Wetherspoons.
There is an element of

demographics.
There are certain media choices

you have to make about how do
you target people.

So you you want to understand
the occasions that I'm

targeting, which type of people
are more or less likely to have

them.
But for me it's absolutely you

start with the occasion and
where they are and what their

needs are before then, going
down into age or gender or

anything like that.
And and do do you feel that's

also misled by the fact that
we're forced to measure what we

can measure rather than what we
should measure?

So into your point, like on
media is we need to invest on

media.
And if media is segmented that

way, then we go back to
segmenting the wrong way just

because we need to suit the
media.

There's a big part of that.
I think there's also a reality

that unless they're the
marketing directors, you never

see a marketer over 40.
No, it's not medic.

I'm still holding on.
But if you look at the people

who are actually doing the work
day-to-day, the brand managers,

the SPMS, the marketing
managers, most of them are under

35.
They're advertising their

creative agencies.
You walk into that room and I

feel like a dinosaur.
Now.

They're also young.
And so you've got young people

who are the marketers getting
advice from their agencies, who

are young people who also
represent an absolutely tiny

percentage of your potential
target audience.

So that's why you, when we went
through a phase where every

brand had to have a huge advert
about big brand purpose, and

we're here to save the world and
we're here to end hunger and

racism and it's no, you're not.
You're here to sell beer.

Fuck off.
Come on, tell me about your

beer.
And I know it's a really

simplistic way of looking at it,
but that's why I think they get

so locked into demographics.
It's great because they're young

and the creative agency young,
and it feels good to target

young people.
And it feels better to make a

big campaign about why Coffee
Brand X is brilliant for World

Peace, rather than just to say
our coffee beans are better

roasted and you'll get a better
cup of coffee.

You'll win more awards.
You won't win more sales that

way.
That's very true.

And and what you're saying
brings me back to one of my

crusades that I'm doing about
like coming from the old Petroni

world of like Lake Como and
river boats and Malfi ghosts and

so on, which is beautiful.
And I grew up there, it's it's

like this.
Then lots of brands jumped on

that wagon.
And now for that kind of like

photography, you don't even
understand which brand it is.

You see a picture of the Malfi
ghost.

Beautiful girl on a boat.
And then it's just, what's that?

Is it the perfume?
Is it a beer?

Is it a gin and Sonic?
Is it?

What is that?
And there is a loss of touch

with the actual consumption
occasions.

Like I'm never going to be on a
riverboat on Lake Coma with

George Clooney anyway.
So tell me, how am I supposed to

dream?
I figures I understand making it

aspirational because you want to
whatever make it aspirational.

But.
Then if you lose that track then

you really lose it and people
are struggling with that because

sometimes they feel that they
get a bottle and it's just what

do I do with it?
I'm.

I've no idea.
I think that's exactly right.

And picking up the Peroni
example, and I think for a long

time, Peroni spent a lot of time
claiming that they could

transport you to Italy.
All the comms, as you say, was

the beautiful woman on the boat,
the Amalfi coast, whilst I'm

sitting there in a shitty London
pub and it's dark and it's

miserable.
Whereas actually what after when

we talked about this loads when
I was there and I've just seen

some comms coming from Peroni
Capri that sounds like they've

listened to it, which was around
your job isn't to take people to

Italy, it's to bring a slice of
that life into your day-to-day

life.
So it's bringing you the sort

of, and I'm going to sound like
I'm giving you a lot of flattery

here, taking the elegance and
sophistication of Italy and

bringing it into an into auk
situation and that's great, but

just showing generic lifestyle
imagery.

I remember we did a campaign on
Grosch, the Dutch brand, which

was really which has been
launched and relaunched and

messed about within the UK quite
a lot, actually.

The highest score I've ever seen
on an advertising test came from

an ad that spent 30 seconds just
showing you the liquid.

It went inside the pint glass.
It showed it being porn from the

bottle.
Beautiful liquid photography.

It didn't talk anything about
brown purpose, but it just blew

the scores through the roof
because people want a bloody

nice beer.
They don't want to be lectured

to by a nice beer.
Yeah.

And that, that that they don't
want to know when the year it

was founded and by and it does
it.

That's not true.
It does matter in the sense of

it helps you brand build your
brand's DNA and your

positioning.
But whether you're Cronenberg

1664 or you're 1759 or you're
12O four, he really cares,

right?
Exactly.

But, and and this is the thing
like that, sometimes we all feel

a little bit too snobbish on our
own products, right?

It's oh, that bartender got the
year wrong.

You're crazy.
It's like he doesn't care.

Like it's not his son's birthday
year.

He like birth year.
It doesn't matter if he got it

wrong by 20 years.
Like what?

No consumer want to know that.
No.

And when I get back to what I
said earlier, what a bartender

needs to know is why it will
make them better margin and how

it will let them offer something
else to a consumer that they

can't currently do.
The consumer needs to know about

the taste because that's what
decisions are made on in bar.

You're not going to make a
decision on whether something is

brewed since 1888 or 1889.
You're not really going to make

a decision off it's brewed in
Italy or Spain.

You're not really going to make
a decision on anything other

than how is it going to taste
for me, all of the rest of it.

So the the brand history, the
story, the founder story, that's

what user above the line comes
for.

Don't expect your bartender to
start telling you about the

story of John Walker being this
grocer in Scotland and the first

person to make square bottles so
that they could transport them.

Actually hasn't got time for
that, but you might be able to

tell you why it tastes brilliant
and use some good language

there.
And to your pre reference on

Peroni like it's that's what
Corona was successful for like

they kind of like brought you
that years of life of Mexico

even if you have never been to
Mexico or or you know it's that

kind of like sunshine.
Moment on the beach.

Or you know, is that need for a
light liquid?

Even if we take it to a
pragmatic point, it's just I'm

thirsty and I don't want to down
like at 7.5% IPA because I'm

dying.
Like with the heat.

I love pills or a quail being
served in a proper jug.

I don't want something like
pills or a quail served in a

tall, elegant, feminine glass
because it is a proper,

relatively hoppy, full flavored
beer and it tastes great.

But don't serve it to me with a
slice of lime in a tall glass.

It's the same principle, right?
Absolutely.

And that's exactly it.
And going back to your previous

point about this new El Dorado,
which could be the the baby

boomers rather than Gen.
Z.

It it's it made me think when
you said that about one of my

very highly discussed posts,
that it's that is like 1 bottle

11 case in one bar.
Is better than 6 bottles and six

bars.
Sometimes you've got that group

of people that they are current
users of the brand.

Instead of going and hunting a
new bunch of user and a new

cohort or target or cluster or
whatever we want to call it, why

don't you try to increase the
rotation with those people that

may have been using it on?
Other occasions and now you may

extend that occasion to the same
users and it this is where very

often brands go wrong in in
terms of spamming.

I call it like spamming the
city.

No one bottle in every bar in
the city.

Oh it's everywhere.
It's not everywhere because they

just like collecting dust on the
shelf everywhere.

I I remember one of the old
brand plan there was one of

those fancy title that I really
love.

It was like create.
Desirability ahead of

availability.
And it was like a very marketing

where you're saying something
but it was just like don't spam

the country.
It goes back to simple supply

and demand for particularly
premium spirits.

You want demand to be above your
supply, but if there's a really

premium single malt, and I find
it in every pub in London, it

doesn't feel like a supreme
single malt.

It feels average, right?
And it's often the toughest

thing for brands to do.
Like what's that tipping point

where you go from a small brand
to a big brand and how you do it

responsibly.
But you're making that point

around not always chasing new
consumers.

And for me, I risk getting in
trouble for this because it's

marketing Bible.
I think a lot of people

misunderstood Byron Sharp's How
Brands Grow because he talks

about focus on penetration.
Frequency will come with it, but

actually the way I look at it is
penetration within occasions

because we don't focus on the
individual, we focus on

occasions.
So the person who has consumed

you in one moment is more likely
to pick you up again in a

different moment.
So how do you find ways of

increasing penetration within
occasions or within venue types

rather than just going?
I need to get as many 25 to 34

year olds as I can drinking
this.

If your consumer base is 44
plus, how do you get them to

drink more and try more and have
more occasions where they can

use you?
And that's where a great service

strategy can help.
The same product, particularly

in spirits, in theory should be
able to be drunk neat or on the

rocks for a more sophisticated
moment.

So if you take a really good
bourbon, it should be able to

fill a series of occasions.
It should be able to be drunk

neat in a more sophisticated
moment, mixed with Coke in a

more laid back moment with your
friends.

You know, a Jim Beam and Coke
Classic, But then also you

should be able to do a whiskey
Old Fashioned.

You should be able to do a
whiskey sour, and already that

same consumer can then interact
with your brand in four or five

ways with the same bottle.
I totally agree with you and I

think it's a great way of
putting it, which I will steal

if you allow me in the future
because it's about the Pennet

penetration in the occasion.
Because I always say you need to

put the foot in the door so that
the importance of that

particular occasion is because
you need to give them a simple

way of explaining the product.
So take, I don't know, Quintreau

with Margarita, always bring as
an example, or Campari with the

Negroni.
And so it doesn't.

Nobody told you that you can
drink Campari like elsewhere or

Quintreau elsewhere, but that's
the moment that allows you to be

on that shelf behind me, because
that's the excuse that I bought

it for ones that I'm in.
Then we can grow that occasion

in additional countries because
Margarita in the US and

Margarita in Czech Republic
they.

Absolutely.
But so you can grow.

There will be people drinking
Margarita in Prague, so you can

grow that occasion across
countries and then you can grow

on other occasions now.
But what I think many brands do

wrong is that they want to get a
bigger pie too quickly and then

all of a sudden it's just it
becomes like what do I do with

this bots?
And they also.

Think about one-size-fits-all.
So for example, if you go to

Asia Highball, which is whiskey
and soda, is the absolute number

one serve for whiskey, the rest
of the world wouldn't touch it

with a barge pole.
So trying to think that you can

just have one serve that works
everywhere and going back to

your point on recruiting
consumers, the way increasingly

I try to look at it is.
There are a certain number of

moments that occur where people
consume alcohol.

I want my brand to be a relevant
choice, and as many of those

moments as possible less about.
I want to recruit more people.

I want to be relevant for more
moments or occasions.

I think with that mindset, as
you say, Campari is now involved

in the Negroni.
We saw brands like Archers

booming in lockdown.
No one was having arches and

lemonade, but though it was an
easy sweet ingredient for a

cocktail if you can get
yourself.

In a well known cocktail as well
as a sort of signature serve as

well as a simple plus coke, plus
tonic and neat, then you are

delivering so much of what your
consumer needs.

And also there's that there's a
point about deadline.

I think you mentioned earlier
like on on this kind of like

headquarters thinking a lot of
the trends when it comes to

cocktail for example, it's
always like London, New York

kind of epicenter.
You know, there's always like an

Anglo-Saxon T on things that and
we all love Britain and and the

US but there are, they're very
peculiar in certain respects,

Not like, I mean take the pimps
in in London or like the tequila

in in in the USA.
Some of those things are less

exportable than others.
Look at the hard seltzer.

The hard seltzer.
It only really worked in the US

at any scale, and it only ever
will work there.

Yeah.
And that's a great, that's a

great mention, actually.
And then there's, there is

something that I feel companies
like when they assess the

markets that they've got, they
get a little bit lost in it

because.
And I'd like to wait to hear

your view on this because
there's there's a lot of brands

that I've been in the Expo all
my career has been in exports

for beer, spirits or whatever.
And working with exports bring

you a different kind of like
mindset because you are with the

small guy in a big market with
huge market share.

I've never, I've never read
market share reports or anything

because it was still the useless
0.005%.

It it wouldn't even score to be
honest.

But that allowed me to see
things differently and sometimes

you feel some brands inherit a a
big footprint because they've

been the first movers in that
country, they've shaped some of

the consumption occasion in some
countries and so on.

But then like when you assess OK
will that work it it gets a

little bit weird in that and do
you think like the companies are

how do they approach this like
when they go at scale, you know

that they try to put A1 size
fits all to what works in the

handful of market and then they
try to export that idea?

Unfortunately, I think there's
an element of truth in that.

For most big companies it's very
difficult because what you can't

do is do a local strategy for
every market.

Else you'll never make any
money.

The best companies I've seen do
it will have regional hubs and

will understand that you can
have a North American strategy.

You can have a Europe, even
Europe, N versus South Europe.

You can have an Australasia
strategy.

But even then you're trying to
compare Australia to China.

I think the best brand that I've
ever seen globalized genuinely

is Guinness, because.
The message that underpins it

being made of more being
something a bit different,

something a bit extra for people
that have got a little bit of

something about them.
Translate everywhere.

So you will find Guinness in the
Philippines, you'll find it in

Ethiopia, you will find it in
France, you will find it.

And they can be consistent
where, but again, they've

defined their own category.
Where it's harder is where the

category that you're famous for
doesn't exist elsewhere.

To take bourbon, huge.
Important for my company,

bourbon is massive.
In the states outside of the

States.
People know Jim Beam and they

know Jack Daniels, and they see
it as the sweet stuff you mix

with Coke.
They know anything about it.

So even bartenders know and will
make beautiful old fashions and

whiskey sours.
But how do you then export a

category which other continents
don't know about?

Or?
It's not what they've grown up

with.
It takes a lot of time and

energy and effort.
It's always worth saying and I

really always appreciate this
statistic.

The number one spirits category
in the world is Baiju in China,

and it only sells in China.
The sales of that one spirit are

worth more than all the whiskey,
vodka, gin put together, which

is bloody scary.
But they haven't ever exported

it 'cause it's something so
peculiar an individual to the

Chinese.
I think where companies have

done it best is where they
localize to an extent.

So if you're a gin company,
maybe look for botanicals that

are relevant for that region,
flavours that are relevant for

that region.
Maybe you adapt your serve

strategy to the region a bit
more.

So if it's whiskey, you push it
with cola in one market versus a

highball in another versus neat
in another.

But it's really difficult and
there are only a handful of

companies Diageo.
Heineken, ABI, who truly, truly,

truly have global reach.
Most of the other companies have

strongholds in certain parts of
the world, but they're not truly

global.
That's something that gets often

misinterpreted.
Now that in many markets, that's

what I always say, that a brand
is actually not that big because

there's usually 5 markets on in
which the brand is doing what,

eighty, 8590%.
And and 80% of its sales are

Italy, UK, Australia, US.
So then you you're starting to

look at the strategy for Sweden
or Spain and you're like bloody

hell, we don't sell anything,
they don't know what it is.

And another good example, can
you export that Italian

lifestyle to a market like Spain
where they've got it pretty good

anyway, Can you export Italian
lifestyle to China?

Would they know what Italian
lifestyle is?

So there is a big need to
localize else the

one-size-fits-all just doesn't
work.

And is there like to to your
previous point like you touched

on like some of the markets that
are used to work in so like that

they were my challenges like
Sweden, Spain and Peronium and

stuff like that.
And and the way I was playing

with was really like being
listed here on where to focus

now and not to go everywhere but
really say OK, the premium

Italian trade and restaurants
and pizzerias and the stylish

outlets where there is a beach
from there is an Italian kind of

environment the waterfront
terrace and this kind of stuff.

Now so you you mentioned
previously with Guinness on the

fight that they got it right and
but they also very specific.

They're not trying to extend
their other occasions.

No.
Like their occasion is pretty

much like Irish pub owning the
Irish pub.

So it's is this is the six
bottles in one bar kind of play,

you know, like rather than if
there are like 20 Irish pubs,

let's serve Guinness properly in
those twenty Irish pubs and then

there may be some bars that may
want to stock it, but let's be

very careful.
About it to your previous point

on on on bourbon like how can
you play I think I think there's

a there's a big role of the
classic cocktails can play in

this now because an old fashion
or brands that are cocktails

that are bourbon drill like.
You know what's amazing, though?

For you and me, old fashioned
probably feels old fashioned.

We've talked about old
fashioned.

I don't have the statistics by
about 80% of spirit.

Drinkers have never tried an old
fashioned, even in the UK.

But most people wouldn't have.
Most people wouldn't have still

tried a Margarita.
There are it.

Can we talk again about
companies getting bored?

It can be easy to overlook the
classics, but most consumers

won't have tried a an old
fashioned, boulevardier,

whatever it might be a whiskey
sour.

And I agree there's no point
trying to make the fanciest,

schmannciest new serve in the
world.

The classics were a classic for
a reason, which is why we push

Maker's Mark as Old Fashioned
and Whiskey Sour around the

world For that reason.
And I remember I think I

mentioned like a couple of days
ago on LinkedIn like about the

best way of having a drink
strategy is to take a classic

and take it and do A twist on
it.

If you're a small brand, make it
like a Smoky Old Fashioned or

like a Smoky Blvd. which is like
something that I always like to

drink.
Like was putting a little bit of

a of an PT Ilay whiskey in into
it now and play with those

games.
Like I always bring the example

do you want to sell whiskey in
an Italian restaurant?

Use the Boulevard there because
it's an extension on the Negroni

that is probably going to sell a
lot anyway there.

We talked about the the entree
and we talked a lot about bars

and pubs and clubs.
We forget restaurants and how

important they can be for
building brands as well because

if Peroni did it, Asahi did it,
Tiger Beard did it.

If you become the brand that
becomes associated with a type

of food.
In the short run, that's

fantastic because it means that
when anyone, if I was having an

Indian take away, I don't ever
have Cobra, even though I

wouldn't necessarily drink Cobra
the rest of the time.

There's a lot of people who have
Indian takeaways or whatever.

So pairing it with food is a
fantastic opportunity as much as

Peroni did the glassware.
And you're absolutely right,

being available in pizza outlets
being the go to when you're

having an Italian meal.
Hugely important.

I think.
Again, people can be a bit

snobby about, whoa, should we
get involved with restaurants?

We should only be in the
Michelin starred you you you you

don't know how many times I had
a fight over this and and

sometimes I've been the guy who
then later on I would fight

because I was the don't be in
Italian like traditional

pizzerias because that's not the
way to build the brand.

I was the first, the guilty one,
and I have tried to analyze it

and say there is always a
traditional occasion that comes

with a product and then there's
a modern occasion right?

Own that traditional occasion
before expanding to your bourbon

example.
Like if there are American bars

on American like diners in that
city, that's the first place you

should sell bourbon to.
Because if I go and have an

American kind of experience and
I don't find bourbon, then all

of a sudden it's just like a
gimmick.

Now it's just what's this brand?
Is it fake?

Exactly, exactly.
And go it goes back to your to

your previous points about
knowing how to manage

expectations on scale, right.
Because if you want this brand

to scale, you need to own a
certain occasion in the mind of

consumer, your example, the
Corona example and you know, I

had discussions with people like
with you know, working on mezcal

brands or tequila brands right
now we don't want to be in

Mexico restaurants like OK, why?
No, because like, it's too

crowded there and so on is just,
yeah, but that's where.

They drink tequila, that's where
they drink tequila.

So of course you can play if you
take it from an inside in in

liquid perspective, you can play
from another type of angle.

Try to go to a whiskey bar and
take what are the new ones?

It's.
A very different.

If I'm going to a whiskey bar, I
want a whiskey and there's a lot

of effort to persuade me that
OK, a mezcal is smoky.

Therefore, whereas you're in a
Mexican restaurant and there are

some mezcal cocktails.
I was lucky enough to go to

Mexico for a couple of weeks
last year and I fell in love

with mezcal.
I drank every day, morning, noon

and night and never sleep again,
but I've never drunk it again

since.
Symptoms.

I've never had a moment or an
occasion where I would see the

reason for it.
Whereas yeah, a Mexican

restaurant, that sort of Fiesta
atmosphere, absolutely right.

And again, people are snobby,
they want to be in the top 1%

bars, whereas actually it's in
places like Tortilla and

Chipotle and places like that
where most people will have any

interaction with Mexican cuisine
and culture.

And also it's about
understanding your role as a

brand, because if you are a
small niche mezcal producer, be

careful what you wish for,
because if you will lend the

deal with Chipotle and.
They suddenly want a bottle at

every restaurant and yeah and
it's going to be bloody

expensive and but you're not
going to have enough stock for

it and so forth.
So like sometimes like people

want to have a shortcut and and
dream about scaling without

knowing what scale brings as a
as a side dish.

It goes, it goes back to what
you said earlier about being

realistic, being laser focused
on.

Considering these are my growth
plans and this is the amount of

produce I can make, where do I
want to grow?

Occasions and types of venue and
then being 100% focused on

those, you know that that's the
way to win rather than the

approach of fuck, I need to get
in as many bars as I can.

Hope it works out.
OK, nice.

Let's wrap it up here and tell
us about how how can people

reach you and find you on social
media and whoever wants to have

a a constructive debate with you
on.

Yeah, they're very welcome to
find me on LinkedIn.

I have the most boring English
name possible and they can feel

free to add me.
It's not a hard one to spell

What Paul Thomas and no, I just.
And just in closing, I just make

that point again of anyone who
works in our industry.

Challenge yourself.
When's the last time you spent

time in the trade?
Genuinely.

And go and do it.
You could do it today.

There will be a pub, a bar.
Go and do it.

Buy a pint, buy a gin and tonic,
chat to the bartender, chat to a

couple of people at the bar.
Go and do it.

You got no excuse.
Absolutely.

And that's totally that's
totally right and and I remember

that I was in my in my wife's
hometown in the South of the the

the Czech Republic and I was in
a very average bar pub, whatever

it's called.
It's like the there's three in

that town.
Anyway and I stayed in because I

was finishing my beer and then I
went to pay and the 2 girls at

the bar and then I started
chatting with them and I said

what do people drink here?
I had a bit of my insights

moment now and I was like what
do people drink here?

Because I I saw the back bar was
a little bit weird.

Now there was some rum and then
some bitters and some really

strange stuff and and their
perspective, what they told me

about some brands, they were
like no young people like us

like they were they must have
been I don't know 20 young

people like like us.
To your previous point on Gen.

Z like they just ordered this
one like the green stuff is

called Zelena is like it's it
looks like mouthwashes like

Listerine.
It's like oh it's just one euro

per shot.
It's that's what they want to

drink and but the older people
they drink the good stuff.

And she pointed out two very
basic mainstream brands that are

marketed as a better product for
that occasion.

They're far from being good
products, but it it was such an

Eureka moment for me because as
you go to a small town that is

like 3000 inhabitants and their
perception of the good stuff,

it's totally different.
And it it would be the most

mainstream thing.
Then I would discuss in an

office in a big company with my
peers because they will never go

to drink into that kind of
place.

So it's totally different, even
in the same country like you,

you go and move and and it's a
totally different kind of

perspective.
Even within the a different

district of a city, we're all
used in London to going to

Shoreditch or to Hoxton.
Get out in the suburbs a little

bit and see people getting
closer to Heathrow in the dodgy

Green King pub where you still
stick to the carpet.

But get out there because your
brands are still probably sold

in that dodgy pub with the
sticky carpet and we shouldn't

be too proud to go there.
And actually, and it reminds me

of an old on an old thing in a
market where I was selling

Peroni, We had the promotion in
an Italian chain in that

country.
I won't mention the country and

the bar manager like the general
manager of the of the Fancies

club in town.
I was going there for a for a

day trip and he ended up eating
at that restaurant and he saw

this basic promotion with table
talkers and a promo prize on the

beer.
And then he sent me a picture

now and he said, oh, I can't
believe you're doing this stuff

in this kind of basic
restaurant.

We're doing something to build
the brand in my club and that's

what you do.
And I was like, hang on a

minute, like you sent me this
picture.

So either that place is not that
bad because you're eating there

or you are the wrong person to
target because you go to those

kind of places and then all of a
sudden we started laughing and

say fuck you got me and it it's
sometimes it's just like we make

it too fancy, too complicated
too.

Ultimately it's about like I
either the the right consumer is

there where they where people
drinking it at the right

pricing, recommended pricing,
yes.

So that's fine.
It means there is demand.

I'll give one last example of
just how simplicity works before

I before I love and leave you
for Friday when it's hot outside

like it is today and you go into
a pub, then you fancy that cold

beer and you see a Heineken Ice
font which is all frozen over.

Or the new Corona font where
they show the bubbles and the

liquid coming through.
If those two things are in a

pub, I'm going to choose one of
those two things, even though I

don't particularly normally
choose those beers because it's

not difficult to sell our
products.

They're delicious.
We just overcomplicate it, make

it look good and make me want
it.

Absolutely, absolutely.
That's a nice way to wrap up the

conversation.
I'm really thirsty at this

point, I'll tell you that.
So thanks, Thanks a lot for your

time.
I know how busy you are and it

was a great pleasure to to
finally meet you and have a

proper chat with you.
No, likewise, really great.

Thank you.
Thank you for.

Cheers.
That's all for today.

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