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How many times have you tried to understand ADHD...and were left feeling more misunderstood? We get it and we're here to help you build a shiny new relationship with ADHD. We are two therapists (David Kessler & Isabelle Richards) who not only work with people with ADHD, but we also have ADHD ourselves and have been where you are. Every other week on Something Shiny, you'll hear (real) vulnerable conversations, truth bombs from the world of psychology, and have WHOA moments that leave you feeling seen, understood, and...dare we say...knowing you are something shiny, just as you are.
Something Shiny: ADHD
What Happens When You Don’t Have to Mask So Hard?
Drop Date: Wednesday, April 15, 2026
*this episode transcription was auto-generated and might contain errors
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ISABELLE RICHARDS: [00:00:00] Hello. I'm Isabelle. She, her, hers,
ISABELLE RICHARDS: and I'm David. He, him, his,
ISABELLE RICHARDS: and we're two therapists with A DHD, who sit down to have some chats about A DHD. We can promise we'll stay on topic or be professional or even remotely mature, but we can promise that you'll end up looking at you or your loved one's, beautiful neurodivergent brain in a shiny new way.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: This is not a therapy session. This is something shiny.
DAVID KESSLER: I love it. Can this just be the intro of you saying that and me freaking out about how amazing it is?
ISABELLE RICHARDS: So without further ado, welcome to something shiny.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Oh, I am so excited, David. In today's episode, we get to keep listening to our incredible conversation with Avari Rocker.
DAVID KESSLER: Yeah. Avari is someone, Isabelle and I met at the Neurodiversity Alliance Leadership Summit in Denver, and it's this [00:01:00] organization we've talked about before. We'll keep talking about it creates leadership, mentorship, advocacy spaces, and near peer mentoring opportunities between neurodivergent students and allies, high school, college, all of that.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: And if you wanna go back and listen to last week's episode, we had unpacked Ava's diagnosis story. What it was like for her to try so long to figure out what was going on and to keep being told, ah, you're fine, you're. Fine. Only to keep feeling like, wait, no, no, no. Something's up. Something's up.
DAVID KESSLER: In today's conversation, we talk about the consequences of self understanding.
DAVID KESSLER: What happens when you actually know yourself, get to own your differences and learning styles, and co find the community that you really need. I've already talks about this as coming home or finding your home.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: It's so good.
DAVID KESSLER: Oh, oh. This is where I have to just own something. Just, just I'm coming in. Coming in hot.
DAVID KESSLER: Throughout this, uh, interview, I am gonna mispronounce of Hari's organization. I'm gonna call it learning curve. That's wrong. [00:02:00] Please know of Hari's organization she created is called Learning Curve with a B. Little differences are important and man, I'm just, we're we're gonna leave it out there. I'm gonna model that mistake.
DAVID KESSLER: But just, you know, to rep to rep, well learning curb, it's amazing.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: So here's our conversation with Ari.
DAVID KESSLER: Can you take me through like the process of. What it's like to join like, because there's, this is how my brain seeing it and I want you to tackle this any way you want.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Mm-hmm.
DAVID KESSLER: You go from this like island to a really populated place like the Neurodiversity Alliance where you're meeting a lot of different people that think differently than you and think similarly than you.
DAVID KESSLER: Right. When did you realize you wanted to create Learning Curve and were you able to use the resources from the other people you met in the Neurodiversity Alliance To like make Learning Curve? Amazing and talk about like how you want people to use learning curve.
AVARI BROCKER (GUEST): Um, one thing I will say is that it sounds really close to learning curve.
AVARI BROCKER (GUEST): It's learning curb, like the curve
DAVID KESSLER: kind of, oh, I'm doing it all wrong. I've said it wrong, the whole this. Thank you so much for advocating.
AVARI BROCKER (GUEST): Yeah, I know, I [00:03:00] know. They're really close. First off, let me just explain the name real quick, uh, just for the listeners at home. So learning curb, um, CURB comes from the curb cut effect on sidewalks.
AVARI BROCKER (GUEST): So the curb cut effect is basically before the Americans with Disabilities Act, there were no, um, curb cuts on corners, right? You know, where there's like the little yellow thing with the dots and then it goes down to the street. Those were designed for wheelchair users after the Americans with Disabilities Act.
AVARI BROCKER (GUEST): But what they discovered is that helps moms with strollers. That helps skateboarders. That helps. Bicyclists men with dollies that are delivering packages right in accommodating for the minority. It helps the majority. It made it accessible for everybody because we were lowering the standard of access to the most vulnerable person in our community.
AVARI BROCKER (GUEST): And I wanna do the same thing with education, which is the mission statement of learning curb. So that's where the name comes from.
DAVID KESSLER: Love this.
AVARI BROCKER (GUEST): And then as far as, um, what it's like for me to interact with, uh, other people. With, uh, [00:04:00] with Learning Curb and in the Neurodiversity Alliance, I find a lot of, um, inspiration and community from the people that I work with.
AVARI BROCKER (GUEST): I was also president of the Student Empowerment Group, um, for the Oregon branch of the International Dyslexia Association. That is the organization I joined literally. A month and a half after I was diagnosed. Uh, and then, um, obviously I got connected with the Neurodiversity Alliance this past summer and being surrounded by like-minded individuals after being on the island.
AVARI BROCKER (GUEST): Like you mentioned, it's like coming home for the first time, if that makes any sense. Right. It feels like. It feels like you belong for the first time. And so I, I also find it really energizing because those are the people that I'm advocating for. Right. I also used to be a math tutor, and when kids with neurodiversity would come into my center, I was able to help them in like.
AVARI BROCKER (GUEST): A different kind of way, right, than the other instructors were because I understood the things that they needed. 'cause it's the things [00:05:00] that I would've needed. Like kids then ask to like work with me. Like, oh, can I go sit by Avari? Like, I miss Avari, I wanna go sit by Avari. And so it's like stuff like that just really reaffirms.
AVARI BROCKER (GUEST): Myself and like reaffirms that this is my purpose because I'm seeing real world impacts. I spoke at, uh, workshops and conferences with the International Dyslexia Association, and I would have kids come up to me and say like, I've never heard someone talk about the good parts of dyslexia before. Like, I'm dyslexic too.
AVARI BROCKER (GUEST): Hearing that kind of a thing again, it just, it energizes me and reminds me like those are the people that I'm fighting for. Because I don't know if this is an experience that only I'm having or if it's other people, but I think it's a lot easier to fight for other people than it is to fight for yourself.
AVARI BROCKER (GUEST): And I get really exhausted and tired of fighting for myself, but I will never give up on the other people in my community, right? The people that I feel like need my voice, that I feel like need my advocacy. And so it also helps me stand up for [00:06:00] myself in ways that I'm not sure I would have the strength to do otherwise.
AVARI BROCKER (GUEST): So yeah, like, like everyone says, right? It's a cliche for a reason, it takes a village, and I definitely wouldn't be where I am today without the support of my fellow neurodivergent people. And I am really proud to get to the opportunity to be a voice for this community, because I honestly don't know where I'd be without them.
DAVID KESSLER: How you said it, you said, you said the magic words, and I'm gonna dive into it because it's like you, you wanna save the world and you wanna reduce suffering from people that have gone down the road, that you've gone down. Like it's so awesome to hear you talk about this like, but you just illustrated something.
DAVID KESSLER: I don't think people understand around community. Because you had done a ton of work around dyslexia, dysgraphia, and A DHD before you came to the Neurodiversity Alliance. Like I'm hearing that so clearly in your story, right? It's not like this is the first thing you've done. You're, you're working with major chapters, you're doing lots of different things in other organizations.
DAVID KESSLER: But then you said this thing where you're like, it felt like I was coming home, but I know what you're saying. 'cause I, it, it happened to me. So like, I'm like, oh my God. It's [00:07:00] exactly right. It's like coming home to a home you've never been, but knowing it's your home. Can you explain? What were the ingredients or what were the things that happened that made you feel at home, even though you'd done so much work beforehand?
AVARI BROCKER (GUEST): I wouldn't say that I feel othered when I'm in a community with neurotypical people, but it's definitely like. I'm conscious of myself changing behaviors. I'm conscious of myself, like being strategic with the way that I demonstrate my neurodiversity. I'm strategic with the way that I present my neurodiversity.
AVARI BROCKER (GUEST): I'm cognizant of the way that I make sure to. Like minimize weaknesses and also kind of put up a front to not be offended by, um, like lack of knowledge, right? Like I, I get made fun of a lot for my spelling. People will like say what it quote unquote actually says, and I'm like, okay, well English is kind of just three languages in a trench coat.
AVARI BROCKER (GUEST): So which one of us is actually wrong? But I digress.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Love this. Wait time out. That's like the sound clip. [00:08:00] English is three languages in the trench code. Amazing. Sorry, I'm gonna hold onto that for the rest of my life. That is amazing.
AVARI BROCKER (GUEST): No, you're all good. So, um, I'm, I'm, I have to be very cognizant and self-aware when I'm with neurotypical people because I feel like I'm representing my community, especially because it's a community, um, where there's been so much shame inflicted on us that we don't feel safe enough to talk about our identities sometimes.
AVARI BROCKER (GUEST): But when I was in the Neurodiversity Alliance, right, I had those masks up like initially and then I saw, I saw another girl with a DHD that was just like openly being herself. Like she was like stimming and she was like jumping from one topic to the other and I was like, we can do that here. I was like.
AVARI BROCKER (GUEST): Oh, oh, oh wait. This is working with both of our brains. This isn't like, it's how it's hard to even explain 'cause it's like never happened to me before, except when I went to the Neurodiversity Alliance. But it was like, it was the first time I realized that it was safe to be fully myself. And that's the, the element that makes me feel at home.
AVARI BROCKER (GUEST): Right? When you're with your family, you [00:09:00] get to, uh, like. Obviously, like there are circumstances that some people don't have this at home, right? And I wanna be cognizant of that. But when you're in, um, that ki uh, kind of family environment where you are able to feel full of yourself, right? You don't have to worry about the social dynamics of peers or, oh, I sat with this person at lunch and now this person's mad.
AVARI BROCKER (GUEST): And it's like all these like dynamics that you get when you're, um, a kid, especially in school. You don't have to do that there. Right? At the Neurodiversity Alliance, like I would instantly become friends with people and like some of 'em, I forget their name and they'd still like, remember X, Y, Z things about me because like, and then we'd hyper fixate on each other and I was like, I don't have to worry about love bombing.
AVARI BROCKER (GUEST): Like we can just hang out all the time and it's okay. Or like I would misread a word and then instead of people making fun of me, they'd be like, me too twin. Like, I think people underestimate the value of. Like shared experiences sometimes, right? Where we're so focused on like diversity and diverse perspectives, which don't get me wrong, are absolutely important, but it's also [00:10:00] important to allow people to recognize that.
AVARI BROCKER (GUEST): While you are individually yourself, you're also one in 7 billion, right? If you're dyslexic, you're one in five. There's so many different community communities and parts of your inter sectioning identity that you're a part of that I wasn't able to fully embrace until I went to the Neurodiversity Alliance and being able to like have that feeling of like being yourself, not having to overthink.
AVARI BROCKER (GUEST): What you wanna say and that kind of a thing. Getting to be fully yourself I think is something that is unappreciated in our world, and that is what I felt. That's what gave it that home feeling for the first time at the Neurodiversity Alliance.
DAVID KESSLER: It's like feeling value for who you are and like all of a sudden it's like reversed, like.
DAVID KESSLER: You want to take the mask off to find more value, and I don't think it happens in many other places.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Oh my gosh. Oh yes, yes. Got, oh my gosh, Ari, that like moment, and David, you just said it, right, like that moment where it's like you, you witness someone else, like, like, like kind of doing the thing [00:11:00] that like, you know, maybe I, I, I'll speak for myself, like I'm busy masking, and then it's like, yeah, it's like almost like, it's like the atmosphere of.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Like, yeah, like vulnerability, but not even like vulnerability and like, uh oh, these, you know, it's, it's, it's just like expansion. It's like expansion and welcoming and like, oh my gosh. When you were describing like people going like, oh, me too twin and stuff. What I'm thinking about too is like, I heard this recently, maybe this resonates, but.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: That idea that, you know, so much of our ma or some, some of us, right, like a lot of our mask connects to that like very neuro conforming, patterning even of communication, right? Which involves all the things, right? Like the, so like the eye contact and the body language and the talking and the pacing of the talking and the speech and all that.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: And the thing I love is like the thing we're doing now, and I imagine our listeners also do, which is like, when we get together, I, I don't talk like this to everyone. You know what I mean? Like, I don't necessarily go on and on. I don't necessarily use my, I, well, I, I hope I do, but do you know what I mean?
ISABELLE RICHARDS: It's almost like, and [00:12:00] I heard it describe recently is sometimes when you're high masking, which you've now alluded to a couple times, and I, I kind of have a question for you about that too. But when you're high masking, right, like you spend all this time. Kind of like maybe even learning the ropes and, but it's the equivalence of like in a conversation or in a social interaction.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: It's like the equivalent of like, oh, I'm giving you a piece of bread, and then the next person gives me a piece of lettuce, and then the next person puts a little mustard, it's just a D. And then they're slowly building this sandwich of understanding between each other. And the way to describe, which I love is like, but with neuros spices we're like.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Here's my entire perfectly constructed, you know, French Dip Hoge enjoy. And then the other person goes, hum.
AVARI BROCKER (GUEST): Yeah.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Oh, this is delicious. And then they're like, and here is my brand new, like vegan. Version of BLT or you know, then you're like home. You know, like it's like something about it is so nourishing and like satisfying.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: It's like you get to take [00:13:00] a whole bite.
AVARI BROCKER (GUEST): No, I totally get you that. It is like, kind of like the way that I feel too, where you just like, you get to Yeah. Be fully yourself and give. Give things that aren't like, like half ideas or soundbites. I feel like, uh, in other conversations, right, you can't, you can't monologue on your special interest or your hyper fixation.
AVARI BROCKER (GUEST): You have to be like, here's this little thing. Ask me more about it. I dare you. You know what I mean? Like
ISABELLE RICHARDS: the breadcrumb, the like, Hmm, will you take the bait? Can I now share my cool fact about Russian teenagers who flew, uh, and against the Nazis and were called the night twitches? Can I, can I backtrack a little bit given my, my personal tangent just now?
ISABELLE RICHARDS: So you describe high masking.
AVARI BROCKER (GUEST): Mm-hmm.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Like, oh, you have all these other even academic located strengths that then, like you were saying, right? Like, people were like, oh, you're just smart and bored. You know, like the ways that that can kind of create this, like, diffuse sense of self or something. I don't know.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: It's like you're both seen and not seen. But anyway, I, I'm so curious what your thoughts are. [00:14:00]
AVARI BROCKER (GUEST): Yeah, for sure. So I hope this is answering your question. Um, I'm gonna do my best. My, um, when I was younger I would like complain about how, like I didn't feel like I fit in and like all these things and my mom would say, just be yourself.
AVARI BROCKER (GUEST): And I would say, I don't even know who that is. Right. And I feel like that is a really common experience, especially for neurodivergent kids that are late diagnosed. 'cause like. I, I, I like relating things. My, the narrative reasoning in me likes to relate things to circumstances. I think that neurotypical people can understand.
AVARI BROCKER (GUEST): So like, imagine if you went your entire life, like, oh, I'll take the female identify, uh, identity as an example. Like, and nobody told you you were a girl. You were just like, okay, well I'm not that group and I'm not that group. 'cause I haven't been told I'm that group. So like, do I fit in at all? Like, who, like, who am I?
AVARI BROCKER (GUEST): And people will just say. Be yourself, right? You have this trait and this trait, so like, aren't you close to that? And it's like, okay, but if I was that somebody would've told me, right? Like I would know. My identity, right? So like, like that can't possibly be my [00:15:00] group. I can't possibly be a woman if nobody told me that I was, because everybody else knows from birth, right?
AVARI BROCKER (GUEST): Or with neurodiversity, everybody else knows from six or seven or like they know from like, like 10 of the latest, right? So if that wasn't me, like they would've caught that, right? I think. You have this trust in the system, but what you don't realize when you're younger is that the system isn't really built for us.
AVARI BROCKER (GUEST): That's another reason why I started learning Curb is because I have all these initiatives and things I wanna do. Because I want to build a system with us in mind. I feel like our community deserves that and I feel like a lot of people that don't know this core identity are missing out. Right? So many women are late diagnosed with A DHD because we tend to to mask because people tell us what we are.
AVARI BROCKER (GUEST): And when you're a kid, you're forced to believe them, right? Because you don't have the cognitive ability to be like, no, I'm something else. Right. Uh, like you don't even realize yourself as an other until you're like six months old or [00:16:00] something. Don't quote me on that, but like, you see yourself so much through the eyes of other people when you're younger because your, your own eyes haven't developed.
AVARI BROCKER (GUEST): Right. Your own self image hasn't developed. If people tell me my hair is brown and my skin is white and I'm a girl, I'm gonna believe them before I even know what any of those things are. So if people also tell me that I. I'm really good at math and really bad at spelling, and I am always gonna be that way.
AVARI BROCKER (GUEST): If people tell me I'm smart but lazy, even though I'm working as hard as humanly possible, I'm gonna believe them because as a child, you don't have any other basis for your identity. And then the older you get. Other people's ideas that you've accepted, you mistake for your own ideas about your own identity.
AVARI BROCKER (GUEST): And it kind of like, it kind of tricks you in a way. So I think the reason I'm so high masking is because every single day before school, my dad would tell me, have fun, be good, work hard. And so I took that as. Have some fun when there's time. Be good to [00:17:00] be a very moral, altruistic person and like do all of the good right decisions all the time.
AVARI BROCKER (GUEST): So like I would never steal candy. I would never cut in line. I would like write, like I took it to the extreme and then work hard. I took that as like do everything in your physical power. Towards the goal, right? So I would skip meals when I was younger. I would skip like drinking water. Like I even say, I say sometimes like if breathing wasn't automatic, I feel like I'd hold my breath until minute three and then be like, okay, quick breath.
AVARI BROCKER (GUEST): Like let's get back to work now. And so it's like that kind of guiding, guided my life to have fun, be good, work hard, that it became such a core part of my identity. And that's why I think I'm so high masking is because I thought that's how you had to be in order to be a person in the world. Because I learned that from such a young age that I didn't have any other basis of understanding.
AVARI BROCKER (GUEST): I thought that everybody lived by those, it was like. Core intrinsic tend tenants to who you are. And so I think that's where a lot of masking comes from, is [00:18:00] just being told things when you're, you're younger and you don't have the self-concept yet, because developmentally you're not gonna have that yet.
AVARI BROCKER (GUEST): Right. To form an identity away from what other people are telling you.
DAVID KESSLER: My god. It's so, it's so like,
ISABELLE RICHARDS: so I know, I know. We, we have like 10 minutes-ish.
DAVID KESSLER: No, I, we're so close on time. So my brain is like, I'm just thinking what you just said is like. A rainbow shooting out of a gold pot of amazing. And I'm like, how do I dare take any attention away from this pot of rainbow and amazing.
DAVID KESSLER: But I have to ask you a different question. So like this is like, I'm stuck. So here it is, learning curve. I wanna go like, 'cause you've created something kind of incredible right now. And like what be helpful for me is could you walk me through like somebody who's going to use learning curve, like what are they thinking and then what are they thinking when they find learning curve?
DAVID KESSLER: And then what are they using learning curve to do?
AVARI BROCKER (GUEST): Oh yeah. So first off, I'm thinking it's someone that's like desperately searching the internet for any information on like [00:19:00] a dyslexia dysgraphia or A DHD are the main ones focused on there right now. Um, because that's who I was, right? Like, or parents that are searching for that because that's who my mom was.
AVARI BROCKER (GUEST): So I'm thinking of it from a very real standpoint of like, or I hear a lot of people that are like, I don't know. What to do. I don't know where to go. I don't know what technology to use. Like just, it's meant to kind of be a broad database of answers to solve the, I don't knows. And so that's kind of the consumer that, um, it's angled towards.
AVARI BROCKER (GUEST): And then once they. Fine learning curve. I have a ton of different pages because I wanna have a ton of different options. So we have the homepage that kind of tells us about like the namesake and a little bit about access needs. Just like, kinda like the basic information you need to be able to, um, like move forward and like understanding and stuff.
AVARI BROCKER (GUEST): And then I have an assistive technology page, an audio options page, a recommended purchases page. I have a disability q and a. Curated by answers from me, and then if I can't answer the question, I go to another [00:20:00] trusted individual, and then I'll indicate that. I have a page that shares my story. If anybody has any questions, I have self-advocacy tutorial tutorials.
AVARI BROCKER (GUEST): I'm working on a suggested strategies page, everything you could possibly need for neurodiversity, and if it's not there, I say on every single page, like if something you know works. Is it on here? Let me know and I'll add it like that kind of a thing, because I really just want it to be like a wide database I'm working on right now, like a curated, um, information center that'll have like trusted resources and stuff so that like they can get like the Dyslexic Advantage book, uh, atomic Habits or a HD stuff like that where it's like curated resources because also finding trustworthy resources that is time consuming.
AVARI BROCKER (GUEST): So it's meant to just kind of be a time saver. I know that a lot of people with neurodiversity, right time is a very valuable resource and I want to make sure that they have access to something all in one place. I think the all in one place aspect is also [00:21:00] really important to me because like I go through website, after website, after website, after website, trying to figure out what, like what to do with myself.
AVARI BROCKER (GUEST): That first year I was diagnosed and like I'm still running into barriers. I'm still needing new strategies, I'm still needing new pencil groups, I'm still, you know, all these things. And so, and anytime I. Figure something out or I develop a new strategy, I'm like, and we're adding that to the website. So that's, um, what they'll find when they get there.
AVARI BROCKER (GUEST): And then, um, I'm also in the works of two acts. That I am hoping to publish through Learning Curb. I'm working on a pencil grip series that's gonna be specifically designed to alleviate pain and dysgraphic hands. So just like all kinds of things are in the works right now. And then I also have an Instagram page where I'm sharing, um, like stories of myself.
AVARI BROCKER (GUEST): It's called Learning dot Curb on Instagram. Where I'm sharing stories about myself and different like neurodivergent experiences to try to like spread awareness on that too. So yeah, the point is really just access to tools and awareness to [00:22:00] try to make the world a more accepting place for neurodivergent individuals.
DAVID KESSLER: Ari, you have absolutely been a delight. Thank you so much for coming on and sharing this kind of stuff. Takes courage. I can't wait to hear the feedback we get. I'm sure that everything you've just said and talked about in terms of community and sense of self is gonna make a lot of people feel better.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Thank you so much for listening. If you ever have that thought where you think, Hey, I have nothing, stop. Remember
DAVID KESSLER: yourself. Something's shiny.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: That's right. Just as you are. If you like what you heard and you want to hear more free episodes of this podcast, please subscribe, rate, and review anywhere you listen to podcasts or on Instagram as something shiny podcast.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: And if you're looking for more information, useful links, definitions, visuals, everything we can think of and more is on our website at. Something shiny podcast.com and it's all free. Thank you so much for listening, and we'll see you in two [00:23:00] weeks.