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Matt is a repeat guest from the Doctors of running and a running shoe fanatic! Our discussion on today's episode starts with shoe expiry dates. Matt gives his opinion on when it is time to buy new running shoes and what variables play a role in running shoe wear and tear. Next, we explore the different features of a shoe that you need to consider when buying a new pair. Matt discusses comfort, flexibility, stability, upper, drop, weight and many other features. Matt also shares his recommendations on shoe brands for beginner runners, performance-minded runners and his take on maximalist versus minimalist. Follow Matt's work by visiting the doctors of running website, youtube, podcast and insta. Become a patron! Receive Run Smarter Emails Book a FREE Injury chat with Brodie Run Smarter App IOS or Android Podcast Facebook group Run Smarter Course with code 'PODCAST' for 3-day free trial.
Expand your running knowledge, identify running misconceptions and become a faster, healthier, SMARTER runner. Let Brodie Sharpe become your new running guide as he teaches you powerful injury insights from his many years as a physiotherapist while also interviewing the best running gurus in the world. This is ideal for injured runners & runners looking for injury prevention and elevated performance. So, take full advantage by starting at season 1 where Brodie teaches you THE TOP PRINCIPLES TO OVERCOME ANY RUNNING INJURY and let’s begin your run smarter journey.
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On today's episode, shoe features and new shoe recommendations with Matt Klein. Welcome to the Run Smarter podcast. The podcast helping you overcome your current and future running injuries by educating and transforming you into a healthier, stronger, smarter runner. If you're like me, running is life. But more often than not, injuries disrupt this lifestyle. And once you are injured, you're looking for answers. and met with bad advice and conflicting messages circulating the running community. The world shouldn't be like this. You deserve to run injury free and have access to the right information. That's why I've made it my mission, to bring clarity and control to every runner. My name is Brodie Sharp, I am a physiotherapist, a former chronic injury sufferer and your podcast host. I am excited that you have found this podcast and by default, become the Run Smarter Scholar. So let's work together to overcome your injury, restore your confidence, and start spreading the right information back into your running community. So let's begin today's lesson. I have a fantastic guest today. Matt Klein has been on the episode on the podcast once before he was on episode 58. The title was using shoes as tools to overcome injury. And this episode, we're going to talk about his recommendations when purchasing shoes. We also delve into a few other things like when is it time to buy new shoes? How do we know when they're too old and need replacing? and we take a deep dive into the features of shoes. So we delve into the upper part of the shoe, a shoe drop, the shoe flexibility, the shoe weight, foam, all those sort of things, really, really important. And you could just, the passion just comes across through the screen when I talk to Matt about shoes and even just his display when I was watching him, he's got an entire backdrop of different shoe. boxes and yeah, you could just tell he absolutely loves it. And I know this is a popular topic for a lot of runners. Runners love running shoes. Any excuse to buy new shoes or sometimes hate shoes. As soon as they're injured, they blame their shoes and we uncover a lot of stuff, a lot of research, but also a lot of Matt's recommendations when the research is a little bit skimpy, so enjoy Matt. Welcome back to the run smarter podcast. Thank you for having me. It's an honor to be back. In the time since you were last here, what's been happening with the doctors of Running Roundtable and what's been happening with your life? Oh my goodness, a million things. So actually before I got on here, I just finished submitting the final draft of my prospectus paper for my PhD comprehensive exams. And I just submitted the presentation for my oral exam, which will happen. in about a week here. So it'll be the final part of progressing from being a PhD student to being a PhD candidate. And then I actually get to start doing the research stuff. So it's been a lot on switch position. So I'm now being transferred from Kaiser, Panama City here in Southern California to another location and working with a friend of mine on a really cool spine program that's being set up. And so lots of stuff. Uh, helping my wife train as she is switching to more ultra marathon distances, which means I get pulled along with her and hanging on and trying to learn everything we can at doctors are running as we're continuing to grow. So lots, lots of stuff. Life is never quiet and it's never boring for sure. Good work, mate. Well, you do sound as passionate as ever on the topic. And I, I wanted to get you on because running shoes are a very popular topic and I couldn't think of a better person. So I thought I'd reach out for round two. and around like new shoe recommendations. But before we get into that, I thought a good way to start the conversation would be just to talk about when is it time to buy new shoes? Cause I have my ideas on how long a running shoe should last or what signs there are that you do need a new running shoe. But I thought I'd ask you first, what do you think? You know, I, That's a really good question. The answer, as you know, which especially it seems like in a lot of the medical fruition we tend to give is it depends. Obviously it's going to depend on the person. Some people are going to be able to get a lot more miles out of their shoes than, than others. Um, if you follow doctors running, you know, that the rest of them make fun of me before how quickly I shred through shoes. Um, an example, like grab something here. Um, this pair of audios pro two. that I have completely destroyed the lateral heel and this has maybe 55 miles on it. So it's now not runnable because it's now there's a massive wedge. It's even worse than before. So someone like me, I will destroy shoes and I have to switch out a little bit earlier. So, you know, that's something that you learn with time in terms of going, when did the shoes start to feel a little bit too firm? When you start getting little aches and pains here and there. are kind of some of the internal cues that as you have more experience, you'll kind of learn to figure out. But the biggest cues I can give you is when you start seeing the sole have like incredible wear there, where you look and go, there's no way this isn't affecting my mechanics, that might be some time to start changing your running shoes. Just because the more, we all have very unique movement patterns and the more you wear that into a shoe as the shoe breaks down. whatever movement patterns that you have, good or bad, are gonna get accentuated. So when you see the sole and the shoe starting to break down and really emphasize that, it's time. I mean, the running industry says three to 500 miles. There's some unpublished literature out there that I was lucky enough to be a little bit part of when I was in university that seemed to show, and this is not published, this is not fully confirmed, but a lot of running shoes, actually, the foam tends to give way at about 100, 150 miles. And then after that, how long can you compensate? So obviously it's gonna depend on how long, how hard you hit the ground, how quickly you wear shoes out, but there's no specific number. And that's a problem because even in the running shoe industry, there's no evidence behind that three to 500 mile range. So don't get caught up on that and know that you need to learn what that looks like for yourself. And again, going back to the beginning, if the shoe, when you start to, it starts to look a little beat up when things are really worn out of the sole, it's probably a good time to switch that up. Yeah. And I, I'm glad you said like significant where, because a lot of like every running shoe, you flip up under and have a look at the sole. It's going to be like some fade or some creases in parts and like just general wear and tear in other parts. And I guess, how do you know where that tipping point is? I guess it happens so gradually over time. It's very hard to make that judgment call. I would say it's better to do that earlier rather than later. Um, and you know, not everyone is fortunate to have multiple pairs of shoes. I've been fortunate throughout my life that I've been able to, whether in university and what have you to have at least two pairs of shoes and being able to switch them off and then, you know, one starts to feel not as good. I'm just hesitating to put a, some, a certain number of miles or kilometers on it, cause it's just going to vary per person. Like for me, I know over experience, I'm not usually going to get more than 250 to 300 miles out of a shoe. Just because that's I've had enough sample size of large enough sample size to go, that's not me. Whereas other people might be able to get more, but if you start feeling a little bit more achy than normal and nothing else is changing your training, like internally, that might be a good time. But when it comes to shoe signs, it's going to depend on the person. And I would say if the shoe looks really beat up and it's not just dirty, it's probably a good time. Yeah. That's nice. Especially if you say with nothing else changed, because A lot of people would get injured and say, damn it, I need new shoes. Or like I'm injured because of my old shoes. They're too old, but you could probably look at other aspects and point to maybe recovery or overload or anything else other than the shoe that might increase the likelihood or actually point to the direction of them actually being injured. Um, but good point. Yeah. I think if no one has changed their things, if they've done a, a 10 K three times a week and nothing's changed and they're starting to notice those little saw points, little niggles, little like strains here and there then, and correlated with the shoe probably being a bit beat up, then it's probably a wise decision to change. Right. I think to answer your question, there are, again, none of the stuff that I've already said is evidence based, right, because we haven't, there's really very little research on how long do shoes last. And it's a big assumption by the running industry. I think for most people, most shoes should not, if they're using them consistently, should not see a birthday. For someone like myself, because I put in like 140 to 150 kilometers a week that I grind through shoes. That's just because of the mileage I'm doing. But if somebody is doing say like, you know, 10, 20, 30 K a week, that's still gonna start wearing stuff out. And you like within, you should start thinking about changing stuff out within three to six months, minimum, I would say. Just staying on the safe side. I know that gets expensive, right? not getting cheaper, but better to err on the side of caution would be my non-evidence-based clinical suggestion. Okay. I am myself, I'm a good case study because not only have, so I had this pair of shoes, these like minimalist shoes, they were innovate, lightweight and loved them. Absolutely loved them. I... there's very little tread on them. The very thin shoes, very light shoes. And when I started running, or when I started running with those shoes, I was still living with my parents. I had, I went to, I would run on this really loose gravel kind of tan track slash trail sort of train. That's all, whenever I went for a run, that's where I'd go. And you could just hear the gravel like scuffing underneath your shoes every time. And... At that time, I was also, well, I've been running, I've been a four foot striker my whole running career, but I've also had a very narrow crossover step with at that time. And so I was significantly chewing through that shoe based on the, my running kind of action based on my running terrain, I went through them in about four months and actually like, you could see my toes through the, by the end of it, I'm like, okay, there's holes in the, in the bottom time to replace them. But then I replaced them with the same type of shoe and changed my, since then changed my running technique to a wider step width and change my terrain to more asphalt pavement. Um, you know, more of a consistent firm underground. And I've had those for four years and I haven't really dealt with, uh, granted they're probably due for a change sometime soon, but I haven't seen that significant where like I have with the first pair, so is a really nice. study to compare and sort of all, you know, just me and it was one to say that running technique terrain, like mileage, like all that stuff really matters instead of just timeframes, like how people say, you know, every six months or every certain mileage, there's, it's nice to have those guidelines, but you know, there's so many other factors at play. There are, and if people really want to guideline that, that's okay, but they have to recognize that that's not evidence-based. And as you said, there's so many other variables. Even using a more minimal shoe, those tend to last longer because there's less shoe to break down, right? So there's less midsole versus something like this, right? There's all kinds of interesting things that you can like crush into that with a certain wear pattern. So, yeah. Yeah, so. For people that want a straight answer, you can go with that three to six month thing, but if you really want to know the answer, there's a lot of factors that hopefully you can kind of learn to play with and understand. And that's what we hope we can teach you. I know you're used to doing YouTube, but just so you know, this is purely audio. So when you show a shoe and say this, they're going to have no idea what that was. Okay. This is, I know by the way, this exact same thing happens. And every time Nathan has to remind me to go, what shoe are you holding up? So I forgot, yeah. All right, so we're going into how long a shoe lasts or like some recommendations of when it's time to get a new shoe. When buying a new shoe, are there certain features that you recommend or like a certain, I guess, process a runner should follow when it comes to choosing a new shoe? Yeah, that's gonna totally depend on the experience of the runner. So somebody who's more experienced, Yeah, we can give them a lot of things to focus on, right? So I really, really like, there's a good study that came out a couple of years ago. It's called the RunCat survey. It's like the running footwear comfort scale. And there's five different variables that they took a look at. And this is actually something I tried to replicate during my PhD program before I realized how insanely hard doing survey and scale validation is. Like I surprised I have hair after trying to do that. And I did not publish it because it crashed and burned. So. Kudos to the authors out of the University of Southern Australia that came up with the running footwear comfort assessment tool. But it's gonna depend on what you're looking for. So obviously having the top fit well, right? So shoe comfort is probably one of the biggest factors, whether you're a new runner or an experienced runner, right? How does it fit on your foot? And shoes are good enough now that really, when you put them on, they should feel good the second you put them on. And there's a good amount of evidence from Ben O'Nigg and a lot of other people that talk about, yeah, that if something's comfortable, it's probably gonna work with your mechanics, but you can't just stand in it. You need to actually run and test the shoe. So shoe comfort's probably across the board, the biggest thing. And then depending on what you like and need, you can add other things like, you know, how stable the shoe is, what's the cushioning like, what's the flexibility in the right spaces, right? How fast or light does it feel? That's not something I initially think that new runners should think about, but I think they should focus on how comfortable the shoe is and how does it feel on their feet while they're running. What do you think on that? Is it worth, like if they go to a shoe store and they find their first pair of shoes and that pair of shoes is really comfortable when you walk and run in them, is it worth like also trying some other different types? Cause there might be one that's more comfortable or there might be, you know, something that they just. don't know that they've found comfortable. So like different styles and different types of recommended. Yeah, I think that's a great idea. Any and all the good running stores that I've been to, and I'm also biased because that's where I got my start is I was working at several running stores in Portland, Oregon, before I was a physiotherapist was being able to give people a variety. And so it's as a working, running retail, if you have a good person there, they should be giving you some options and helping you kind of figure out what. what you're going through and what you're feeling. And so, yeah, I encourage people to try on a bunch of shoes, see which one you like, see if there's maybe even two that you might wanna try just to like go back and forth. Cause you know, there's some initial evidence on having more than one pair of shoes, like two shoes to switch back on and forth in, can actually reduce your risk of running injuries. So yeah, I think that's a great point and a great thing is going try a bunch of stuff on and you might be surprised. I want to break down all of those features that you described in a little bit more detail. So when you talk about flexibility, what do you actually mean when you talk about a shoe flexibility and like, why does that matter? Right, so flexibility actually, so the way I've had people ask me about this, it's not necessarily, is the shoe super flexible? Is it, does it feel, does the flexibility feel good for you? Because some people are going to want something that has a ton of flexibility because that works for their mechanics, right? joints and bones and muscles that tend to have a little bit more motion like that versus maybe something I just remembered that we're on audio only and I keep holding up shoes so I don't need to do that versus having something else that's super stiff and somebody else might like that. So it's finding a shoe that has an ability to bend in a way that works with your foot. So when you're running, make sure you are running when you test these because you're going to be using the stance phaser when your foot's on the ground, it should feel comfortable like it's working, the shoe is working with you the whole way through. It shouldn't feel like things are bending in a weird spot. It should feel like the shoe is really, it's almost like you're not wearing it, is kind of the key. So the shoe should just bend nicely where it needs to under your foot and not feel like it's too much or too little. Yeah. So it shouldn't feel like you're like, something's bending in a weird spot, but it also shouldn't feel like you're running on like bricks. I've read in the past, like, yes, there's that kind of comfort filter that people should mainly gravitate towards, but there's also concurrent to that. There's also what people call the preferred movement path, how the shoe itself should be, um, moving in the same direction of your preference. And so, If you, like you said, if you notice that there's a bend or if there's a stiffness or some flexibility in something that's beyond what your natural capabilities are, then it might feel a bit awkward and feel a bit uncomfortable. Right. And so that's tough, especially for those of us that have more experience, like want to try shoes that we feel that initially, what do you think, is it worth sometimes waiting and breaking the shoe in, or is it just one of those things where, you know, based on the, what the research world has said, which doesn't always totally correlate with the clinical and real world, I'm always wondering do I tell people that, yeah, sometimes a shoe can break in a little bit, or is it you should just, this should feel good. The second you put it on. And that's a something that I have kind of struggled with. Cause again, research does one thing, but then we know from clinical practice, sometimes things just take a day or so to break in. And what do you think? Is that worth waiting? How would you explain that to a runner? I'm not entirely sure. I think probably if you try on different types of shoes, then the most most comfortable would probably be the best one for you. And even once you break it in over a day or two, then it might become more comfortable. But if you find that there's one real obvious one where maybe the midsole or like the stability, there's like a bump underneath your foot. You're like, oh, it's a bit awkward having that there. Or if it's a bit too stiff, you're like, oh, it feels really awkward when I run. Like you should just disregard those straight away. But then you can probably hone in on something that's comfortable straight away, which then might, you know, either become more comfortable or just indifferent once you break them in. Right. And that's, that's tough. And so that's, yeah, I totally agree with you. It's like, you know, again, for the most part, probably focus on things that feel good and get better right away. Um, especially for newer runners, right? Because more experienced runners are going to kind of get a sense of going at it, so break in it's fine. But when you're, when you're new and you're just getting into this, go with what's absolutely comfortable. Like you shouldn't feel those bumps and that stuff. I should mention as well when it comes to, if we're still on the topic of flexibility, what you were doing with that, with that shoe to test out its flexibility was just kind of just squashing it together from toe to nose and just pressing it or twisting it. How do we know what the flexibility is? I know I realized I just, I just did that off camera. That's something I highly suggest people don't do. Because a lot of times when you're bending the shoe that must, it's not actually been designed. to bend at that point. So that's one of the classic things people in running stores will walk up and bend the shoes in half. And a lot of times you're actually creating a new flex point in the shoe in the midfoot, which really wasn't supposed to be there. So what I encourage, it's a better way to do that, right? You're using your hands for that, not your feet. Get the shoe on your feet and just try rolling it back and forth and kind of stepping forward and saying, does it feel like it rolls well underneath my foot? If it feels like you're either hitting a speed bump or something's bending in the wrong place, that flexibility may not be. right for you, but if it feels like it's just rolling you forward and it feels like it fit, it just, it rolls with your foot. That's a lot better way than that classic bend test that okay. Like messing up shoes. That's a good point. Cause I do that all the time. I just, I just bent and twist shoes all the time. So thanks for highlighting that. Um, what about if you use your hands and then just bend it with not taking it to the extreme, but just have a general feel of what the wiggle is like or what the flexibility is like kind of like how it would move. if you were right, is that an okay test? I think that's an okay test, especially when you're, and what I'm referring to is when people like bend the thing in half, right? To the extreme, yeah. To the extreme. If you're taking it, it just kind of like, especially looking at the torsional rigidity and going, you're holding it, kind of seeing how it twists just a little bit and just testing it. Yeah, definitely. I think that's a great way to look at things. It's just hard to translate that to what that's going to feel like on your foot, unless you're experienced enough to know, hey, I need a rigid shoe or hey, I need a flexible shoe and you can... just tweak it a little bit. The other thing I wanted to look at was the upper part of the shoe, because you actually had a previous podcast episode on this and I didn't really consider the importance of the upper part of the shoe. And for those who aren't too familiar, can you explain what the upper part is and is there any considerations they should make when it comes to that part of the shoe? Definitely. So the upper refers to the top mesh on top of the shoe that really holds your foot down. to on top of the sole. And so a lot of people previously weren't talking about this but how that really contributes a lot to how a shoe fits. You know, when that thing sits on your foot, that's why there are people that either read a list of doctors running, I frequently talk about heel counters because I'm someone that has a couple like a haggling deformity or it's a little excessive bone growth on the back of my, on both heels. It can be a little sensitive. So I'm just aware of things on the top of the shoe that can either be really good. It will push and like then hold my foot well. or that can cause me problems, right? So how narrow the shoe is, right? Do I have enough room in my forefoot, which is, it's really important, right? It doesn't need to be super voluminous for everybody, but having enough room to wiggle your toes around is important just because when you land, you need to be able to move those just a little bit for natural shock absorption of the forefoot. So width is really important, right? Is it, does the shape of the top, is it actually matching your foot? Is it compressing it? Are you sliding around too much? And yeah, just about how does it hold your foot and how does it let your foot move on top is really important considerations for the upper. It's not just, Hey, what are you landing on? But what is holding your foot down? Usually when I have someone come in and they've got pain on the top of their foot. And it's like the very top of their foot. It's not really like deepest. Doesn't fit. It doesn't not like a stress fracture type of bone. but is at the very top of the foot. Usually you can hone in on something to do with the way they lace their shoes or something to do with the upper or just some sort of friction as they're running. Have you seen that as well? I've seen that all the time or they have stuff either too tight or they're getting some like, what looks like almost like a tendon compression up top there on some of the extensor tendons on the top of the foot. So that happens all the time. And I encourage everyone to look, there's some really, really cool lacing techniques that have been developed over the years where And this is something I always tell patients and people that I work with is, don't be afraid to modify your shoes, right? There's, you can take the laces out for a reason, right? So don't be afraid to mess with those because how the shoe fits, it should fit directly to your foot. And sometimes it's not perfect because the shape of these shoes are designed based on like one or a couple people frequently. So make sure you can adjust it to your foot. And you can make it wider, you can make it more narrow, you can adjust it so there's different places of pressure on your foot. Sometimes people will get different nerve compressions in different parts of the foot, and you can actually change the lacing to change the fit to unload that or give you more room. So the upper, if you can learn, is very adaptable. And yeah, tying that stuff too tight, cause there's a lot of really important structures that kind of need to breathe on top of your foot. So I'm not saying let it be loose, but I see those frequently, yeah. Nice. I wanted to talk about the... drop the heel drop of the shoe as well. Cause not many people know about the drop and others that are familiar with shoes, they tend to gravitate towards a heel drop. So it can be popular, but some people don't really know much about it. Right. Can you explain what that is and why that's important? Yes. So the heel drop or heel toe drop refers to the difference in height, excuse me, in height between the heel and the forefoot. So previously, before we went through a lot of, a lot of the changes in the industry a couple of years ago, A traditional heel drop, excuse me, was about a 12 millimeter difference or 12 millimeter heel height, meaning your heel was elevated 12 millimeters compared to your forefoot. So this does change the mechanics of your foot, right? So that means that frequently when you land, not necessarily, but you're more likely to land rear foot first. That's not always true, right? And there's plenty of people that run in zero drop shoes and they still run heel first. But it does change a lot of the length tension relationship through your muscles, right? So there's less, your calves tend to get a little bit shortened. They don't have to lengthen nearly as much. So people that tend to have stiff ankle joints or limited calf length tend to do better and a little bit of a higher heel drop. Whereas people that tend to have some like patellar issues, sometimes you can get them to swish their foot strike a little bit forward with a lower drop shoe, meaning one that's like. And most of the industry, you're seeing more and more zero drop shoes, meaning that the heel and forefoot are the same height. But most of the time, I suggest people doing that like kind of lower, like four millimeters, six. And the lower you go, it requires more calf work, right? So your calves are going to be working more because it's frequently going to shift where you land just a little bit forwards. Again, not always. But the heel height really changes the work. So lower heel drop shoes, you're gonna have to, your calves are gonna get a lot more work. And that's why oftentimes you see people switch too much, calf strain, Achilles stuff. Whereas people with higher drop shoes, it tends to put a little bit more work into the knee and the hip. That's not a bad thing. You just have to recognize it's just changing where you're loading. And it makes me think of two things. One, obviously if you wanna change your heel drop. then you need to do so gradually. And the more aggressive you change it, the more patient you need to be with changing, making that adjustment. But when you're talking about shifting loading, you can kind of use it to your advantage. If you do have a certain injury that keeps popping up, if you do have say plantar fasciitis or Achilles issues or calf issues, you could probably transition to a higher, larger heel drop to help shift the load to somewhere where the body can maybe tolerate greater loads. Yep. One of the key comments that people may hear me talk about is that shoes are tools and you can use them in that manner to shift load. You just have to remember that you're not getting rid of that load. You're not reducing the forces. You're just moving them. So don't assume that by shifting them totally, your problems are going to go away. You still got to address where that stuff came from, but it's certainly a great way to unload some of that stuff. Maybe let it heal while you work on that. Just know the... the other parts of your body have to get used to that. So don't be surprised if you're a little sore and you know, Brody you said like, take your time transitioning, right? If you're going to make a big jump, even going from a zero drop to a high heel shoe, like take your time, right? You got to let that, that tissue get used to where the new loads. Yeah. And we did talk about like using shoes as tools last time you're on. We went into a deep dive with that. So if people are familiar, I've got episode 58 was when you were last on. Um, the other feature I wanted to talk about was the weight of the shoe. Does everyone need it should have been to consideration with most recreational runners, or is there only a specific type of runners that should really focus on the weight of the shoe? What do you think? That's a really good question. I'm going to, I'm going to throw that back at you in just seconds. I'm curious to hear what you think, but I, again, I really think it depends on the runner and it depends on what they're using the shoe for. So as someone, you know, like myself who's more competitive, like I have different shoe weights for different things. If I'm gonna go run faster to a workout, I'm gonna want a lighter shoe. If I have a race, I'm gonna want a lighter shoe. But for daily training miles, weight isn't gonna be as important to me because I'm gonna be probably using something that might be a little bit more protective. And if it's a little heavier during easier miles, that's totally fine. I would encourage people that the weight of the shoe is another thing that should feel comfortable. Right, you shouldn't be running in shoes that feel like you're carrying lead weights on your feet because that's obviously gonna change your mechanics. It may put stress in areas that's not necessary. But is it necessary for a recreational runner who's not interested in doing minimalist barefoot stuff and just wants to get out there and do their 5K, 10K? You know, as long as the weight's comfortable, that's probably not the most, that's fine. Do you need a six, five ounce shoe? You know, or like a sub 200 gram shoe? That may not be necessary, but hey, if you find it comfortable, why not? But I think that probably find looking at comfort is probably going to be more important than exactly how light the shoe is, as long as it's not too heavy. What do you think? I do think that I agree with everything you say. The research will show that the light of the shoe is the, like it helps your running economy. So performance wise, it's nice too, but you don't always, well, there's only certain limited runs that you do where you want to perform and- Right. usually when it comes to a lighter shoe, there's exceptions to the rule, but usually with the light of the shoe, the, the less, I guess, stability or less like protection or it's just, um, closer interface with the ground and it's, you know, more flexible. And so there has its, it's kind of drawbacks and the, you know, if you, if you were to run in minimalist shoes, like all the time, like you say, sometimes having two pairs of shoes and swapping them out could be really nice, but reducing your risk of injury, cause you're shifting the loads here and there. And so I do think lighter is good for someone who's wanting to generally just improve on their, their running performances and their running economy and like switch that out every now and then, but I agree like usually with. My easy runs. I'm now using, uh, something with a greater heel drop and something that's a little bit heavier, but just offers a little bit more stability and a little bit more reprieve from my feet and my calves and my Achilles, which is kind of what you need throughout the week. So. Um, again, using them as tools, I think there's a place to have them and there's a place to sort of go the other way and sort of a little bit more on the, the stability side of things. Right. We actually just had this conversation. So with the podcast we just posted, I'm talking about what, you know, do we think that performance trainers are relevant, especially when, you know, we taught one of the comments that you made was something that I said directly was, you know, previously, you know, lighter shoes were typically closer to the ground offered less cushioning and oftentimes less stability. But now we're seeing some of these next generation of racing shoes would have actually more cushioning and more like larger stack height than some of our trainers. And so that people are coming and asking us going, hey, can I train in these? And most of us are going, well, these are super aggressive, very unstable shoes that I personally wouldn't suggest, but we still have a lot of people that are, especially in the LA area, people. tend to have a little bit more finances or like want the fastest shoe all the time. So your people train full-time and like a vapor fly. I'm curious what you think. And if you're experiencing that and what you tell people when they ask you, Hey, can I train in this carbon fiber plated, like max stack height max, like, like incredible soft foam all the time. Yeah. They're like, they usually are exceptions to the rules with these new shoes, super shoes coming out and their foam is like incredibly lightweight. And like you say, stacked so much. I had Simon Bartholdt on and he sort of recommended that like those particular types of shoes should be just done for performance and racing. He didn't really recommend it for recreational runners anyway, but called it like a specialist shoe. It's for like really highly elite kind of runners. That's what there's, it's purely designed for elite runners, but recreational runners tend to get a hold of them anyway. I don't really have a strong opinion one way or another. Like I guess if they're not injured and they find them comfortable and their bodies responding well to it, like, I guess it's their own provocative. I think there's, um, yeah, it's each their own. Everyone has different goals and different means and different preferences. And so, like I say, if they're not injured, if they're running themselves into the ground and getting injured every time, maybe it's time to rethink what their footwear is, but yeah, I guess the The debate continues and I'm kind of on the fence. Yep. I'm in the same way. And totally you're like, yeah, I guess, you know, if you're not injured and you're doing fine, great, right? I'm not going to, don't mess with something that's clearly working, but I think for most people, right. As same conversation with, with Simon's like, these are, you know, very aggressive tools and that they, again, you can't get rid of forces. They shift things into different areas. And so we'd encourage you to use these for special occasions because that's what they were designed for. They were designed for workouts and races. They weren't designed for daily training. And while we're seeing some stuff, some research is coming going, yeah, they, they do improve economy a little bit at, you know, slower speeds. What's the trade-off. And so, you know, we don't know yet. And so that's why I'd say, Hey, you're on the side of caution, but if it's not breaking you, I guess go for it. I mean, yeah, like you said, if anything, the, um, The trade-off is just a lighter wallet because it's so expensive. Oh. Ha ha. I was like, the rate I go through shoes, I'm like, I cannot imagine, like I'm very fortunate that we get sent shoes through you, but I cannot imagine having to buy, you know, that I had a pair of vapor flies and I just destroy, I ripped through the outsoles I do with most shoes. And I'm like, yeah, I like, you know, couldn't afford a handling, getting a new shoe every 150 miles or like less. I can't do this. Is there any other features that you think a runner might need to consider when purchasing new shoes that we haven't discussed already? So we talked about shoe comfort overall going, you know, how does this thing fit on my foot? How does it feel on my foot? How does it interact with my foot? We talked about flexibility. I think stability is an important thing, which is often really hard to explain to newer runners. That's one of the things that we try to talk about, but hey, how, when you land, How stable does the shoe feel? Do you feel like your foot is rolling in a direction that's preferable or do you feel like you're wiggling all over the place? So stability is something that's important and that will mean different things for different people where some people that may have a super stiff, rigid foot may want something that's softer and a little more unstable because it actually helps them shock absorb versus somebody who's like super wobbly like me, might want a shoe that's stiffer and doesn't tend to wobble as much or feels like it really transitions you straight. So stability is something, and then based on the run cat, obviously cushioning, right? How does it feel underfoot at your heel and your forefoot? Does it feel soft enough, firm enough, and everybody's gonna have different preferences, but it should feel good under your feet. It shouldn't feel, yeah, and different people are gonna have different preferences. Some people like running on super soft foam, other people like running on firmer stuff, and make sure that matches what you'd like. And that's part of the learning process. Exactly. So to answer your question, probably stability and cushioning are probably the other two things, which are going to mean different things to different people. Okay. And still abiding to that, that same comfort advice and guidelines that you said. Yes. Again, like, yeah, figure, figure out what's, what feels good for you and not necessarily your neighbor or your training partner or your, you know, your competitor, you have to figure out what's feeling good for you. And that's, we are very fortunate now that we have so many shoe ops and to choose from, so try some stuff. See what, and you may find the perfect shoe, you might not. And that's part of the experience of trying this stuff and going, what can I find? What the best thing for me is. Yeah. And saying that, like, I did want a part of this episode to be around some recommended types of brands of shoes. And I know that you had some episodes around the awards, like that delivering some sort of awards on shoe types and. Right. I wondered what your thought would be on that. If you had any recommendations to start somewhere for like say new runners or those who wanted to get a kick in their running performance, like do you make recommendations in terms of brands or shoes or any preference? Um, or do you just follow that same advice? Um, I think that's a little bit of both because I think it's you know, it's obviously people have to figure out what works for them. But when I find out, when I can get people to tell me a little bit more about themselves, then it kind of helps to go, you know what? You might like this a little bit more. Like for most, I have nothing against or for any specific company, but generally newer runners, I will make suggestions along the lines of kind of the more tried and true companies that tend to be, I know tend to be a little more comfortable. So your company's like New Balance, Saucony. A lot of ones that tend to not make aggressive shoes, but they make really comfortable training shoes. A couple examples, Mizuno is another great one that tends to work really well, although it tends to run a little bit firmer. So that's a unique preference. For those that are looking at performance, that's where you can kind of start spreading out a little because so many companies have these different, you know, racing shoes. So that's where things like, you know, Adidas and Nike do very, very well on the performance end. A lot of the other companies, are coming up aggressively. I have to admit that a couple of companies that I am most excited for when it comes to their performance shoes are Sockney, Puma, and then I can't say too much, but Mizuno has some stuff coming soon that I'm very excited about. So yeah, especially that performance one that's hard. It's kind of learning what's worked for you because everybody wants to gravitate toward the Nike AlphaFly and the VaporFly. And yeah, I have to admit that to this day, based on the literature we're seeing is that those still tend to have the biggest... performance improvements across the board. They may not work for you though, as an end drill. There's still plenty of people that are doing super well in the Endorphin Pro or the Adios Pro 2 or various other super shoes or performance shoes out there. And sometimes it doesn't even have to be one of those. But in terms of overall brand recommendations, I think most companies are doing really well now. There's people who commented recently going, hey, you guys don't give that many like really bad reviews. And it's because there are, there's a couple that have come through. It was like, this is just not, this needs work. But for the most part, most companies are doing really well. And you're the big, the classic ones, right? So you're New Balance, Saucony, Brooks, Mizuno. Let me look at my shoe wall here. ASICS obviously is doing really, really well. I apologize for forgetting ASICS. But a lot of them are doing really, really well. But they're still unique. And so that's where you kind of need to figure out what footwear do you tend to gravitate for. And it's okay to try some different stuff. Like me, for example, my foot works very well with the ASICS Metaspeed Sky, but I don't typically do as well in a lot of their traditional training shoes just because they don't have a very big bevel. And that's something that's really important to me. So to not keep rambling on, I think there are a lot of great companies out there. And I think there's ones that new runners should consider sticking with. But then as you get more experienced and think about performance, yeah, totally spread out and try stuff and see what works for you. I like how you say the tried and true companies instead of maybe taking a little bit risky with something else that might be a little bit new because they haven't been tested as much. And you probably have, they might be fine but you might probably have more confidence with the bigger companies. This episode is sponsored by the Run Smarter Online course. It's tough teaching and learning these podcast concepts through a purely audio format. So combining the podcast with these video courses is a great way to enhance your learning. There are several courses to choose from based on your running goals and situation. We have injury prevention courses, courses that focus on treatment for certain injuries, and courses to help enhance your running performance. and if you sign up through the website, you'll then have access to the course videos, both through the Run Smarter website and through the Run Smarter app. And to say thanks for being a podcast listener, enter Coupon Code Podcast at checkout to receive a three-day free trial. This unlocks all the injury prevention, injury rehab, and running performance content, so you can binge for three days and it won't even auto-subscribe you once the three-day trial is finished. So head to the online course hyperlink in the show notes to begin. I also want to ask you now, like we've probably switched topics a little bit, but a lot of people are going to be thinking about foot shape compared to shoe type or, you know, the, the size or shape of a shoe compared to the ankle and foot shape, flat feet, high arches. We get that a lot. We have, people walk into shoe stores and they go on the little gate pressure pad and they say, Oh, you're a pronator, you need these shoes. Oh, you're a supernator, you need these shoes. What are your thoughts on that particular experience? Yeah, there's been 20, 30 years of evidence suggesting that it's not valid. And so I always warn people, if you're going to a place where they use like static foot scanners, you should walk right out because we know from a lot of the evidence that what happens to your foot statically can often be totally different from what happens when you start moving. Right. So, you know, as a physio, right. So we often look at somebody's static posture, but that's not the only thing we look at. Cause you know, you need to watch them moving to actually figure out how they're moving. Cause sometimes those things don't match at all. So, you know, you gotta be careful with that. And we also know there's been some really good U.S. military studies where they've like looked at thousands of people and tried to figure out does matching shoes based on like arch height and. Like when people say foot shape, they're usually talking about, are you flat footed? Do you have a high arch? They're usually talking about the arch shape. We've learned that that's really not a valid way of prescribing footwear, right? There's other mechanics, there's a lot of other variables that go into that. And that seems to not be as important. From a comfort perspective, yeah. So if you have a higher shoe and with somebody with a low arch, that may or may not be comfortable, right? Where somebody matching a shoe that you know, the insole has a higher bit, somebody with a higher arch. may be more comfortable, that may not affect the stability though. And that's where a lot of that was coming from. So when it comes to static foot measurements and talking about matching arch height to certain foot types, that's not been found to be really valid. And so what I encourage people to do instead is again, looking at the comfort of a shoe and then watching how people move, but be careful with that because just because you see somebody that has a high arch or a low arch and you see them doesn't necessarily mean that's how they're gonna interact with the shoe, because that's now a new variable. So you ultimately can start at those places and say, yeah, this is a great place to start, but then you gotta get them in the shoe and go, how's that feel? And how do, that's most important. And then how do you look, but realize sometimes things may look awesome, but if it fits well and the person's not getting injured, the whole point, there's a lot of variables that go into this. And so it's not simple. And I like how, no matter what direction we take this in, it all just comes back to the comfort stuff anyway, because if you're saying, well, I have flat feet. And if you're telling me there's no type of, I guess, quality of shoe that would have me fair, what should I do then? Well, it just goes back to comfort. Try a bunch of different shoes, try running in them. And if you find it comfortable, then that's most likely gonna be the one you'll most likely thrive in. Right. And because don't make the assumption just because you have flat feet that you might have excessive motion. Right. There are plenty of people that have stiff, rigid, flat feet, flat arches. And so you put that kind of person in an overly rigid shoe or a high stability shoe, they may not like it. And so I see that all the time where people come in, they're going, I was told because I have flat feet, I need this heavy stability shoe. And now I have knee and hip pain. I'm like, and I'm looking at them going, yeah, cause that shoe now is stopping you from adequately shock absorbing and you're compensating versus there are other people that have. high arches and they're like, oh yeah, you need a neutral shoe. And they're wobbling all over the place. And they're going, now things are hurting because I feel like this is stable enough. So don't make assumptions based on how things look. Watch them move and get a history on the person. And then you can make that decision with them. So don't make it for them. You've got to work with them and go. And that person has to ultimately decide what is most comfortable and what are they comfortable with choosing. Yeah, well said. I had on the. on the list, talking about Hokas and minimalist shoes. And I think we're just gonna keep, continuously go back to the comfort thing. But I want to ask this, is there a type of runner or type of circumstance where you might recommend Hokas compared to like a traditional shoe? Yeah, so a lot of times when somebody has a foot and ankle issue, I think Hokas or those maximalist and rockered shoes can do really, really well because they unload it. So we know from the evidence that rockered soles tend to shift work away from the ankle and tend to put it up toward the knee and the hip. So again, when we talked about heel drop and moving loads, that's actually really good. It's almost like wearing, you know, some people who have had stress fractures and fractures know, hey, they put me in the boot. A Hoka or more maxilose shoe can sometimes be a little better option to unload it and get you rolling forward without necessarily changing as much stuff or being as rigid as say as a boot, although sometimes that is required. So, you know, a maximalist shoe definitely has its place. And I've used those frequently. The other thing that's really nice is somebody has a mobility problem. So some people as they get older, right, they might start losing some joint mobility. They may not have appropriate movement at the ankle joint or talocruel joint, or the toe joints or the metatarsal phalangeal joints. And... you know, if you don't have that motion, and let's say, you know, as we get older, right, you can work on a lot of that, but there are age-related changes that happen. This is one of the things that my PhD is on. There are tools you can use to help you forward. And a rockered shoe, a maximal shoe, may help you get that forward transition you might be missing from not having those joints moving as you want them at that moment. So yes, I think it's a great tool that can be utilized. I think, you know, optimally, you should have, if you're gonna use that, another kind of more minimal shoe or more traditional shoe can bounce back and forth because those bigger shoes, you, we don't know, there's no evidence on this, but clinically you may not have as good like kind of body awareness or like proprioceptive input, which is kind of one of the theories behind some of the resources that show that just cause you have more cushioning just doesn't mean your joint load goes down. In fact, actually sometimes when you're wearing maximalist shoes, your joint loading. So that means the joint forces inside the joint actually increase because you land harder. because you can't feel where the ground is. So I think people should balance that out. But again, to your answer your question, I think there's a good purpose for using each one. I don't think we should say, oh, you know, everything's going through the maximum route. We don't need the minimalist stuff anymore. It's like, no, everything has things you can use it for. And there's probably, when you say there's a certain recommendation, or if you are maybe a little bit older, or if you wanna take the loads away from the feet, then maybe the hokas are more recommended, but that doesn't necessarily talk in absolutes. Like you could spend some more time in hokas or the majority of your time in hokas, but then can swap some things out and change some loads and again, using them as tools. Yeah, totally. Again, I have some older individuals that I work with because I'm very fortunate to work with some phenomenal masters runners here in Southern California who have inspired the PhD I'm doing right now. And while, you know, as you get older, you might lose some movement in certain places, doesn't mean you shouldn't work on it. So maybe for a bulk of your miles, maybe being in a more maximalist shoe might be really helpful for a certain person, but don't be afraid to spend some time if you, if your goal aligns with that, right? So a lot of these individuals still are focused on track and they want to be able to run in track spikes. And so going yet, you might not be able to wear those as much, but you still, if you want to wear them during your races, you need to train in them somewhat. But then the rest of the time you might want to spend. in a maximal issue so you can just get that recovery and unload that stuff. So you can get ready for the next track session. So again, just like you said, using them as tools and be careful of absolutes, unless your body really can't handle one of the other. Yeah. I feel like we're on the same page with a lot of these things and with you a lot more detail than I would go into, but that's why you're on here and not me. Um, Is there any other final takeaways that we probably haven't discussed or if someone's looking to buy a new shoe or looking to see if maybe they should replace their old shoes, anything we haven't talked about, any other final takeaways? I think going back to being open to new experiences, and I think you brought this up really well going, don't be afraid to try something new. I know we all like... the tried and true thing, but sometimes you might be surprised that something new might actually work a little bit better or might provide a new load. So if it's time for a new pair of shoes, yeah, you know, every once in a while, try something new, right? Expose your body to something a little bit different. And you know, you can keep your traditional shoe, that's fine, which is really hard now because shoes per year, they're changing so quickly. You know, I'm very fortunate that, you know, I get to be in the industry and work with a lot of these running companies and kind of see what's coming down the pipeline and test it as well. If I didn't know that, like, you know, this stuff is, there's so many shoe companies out there and things change so fast. So potentially whether you like it or not, you're gonna have some changes over the years as your, you know, your classic shoes suddenly changes, but don't be afraid of that. You know, just be open to new experiences. You'll be, you might be surprised. You might like it a little bit better. One thing I was saying is when you talk about be open to new experiences, sometimes a certain brand of shoe. I'll say like barefoot style shoes or even maximal style, like one way or another, some people can get really involved in like their identity being a certain type of shoe. And I've had so many runners that, well, I wouldn't say so many runs. I know of a couple that have constantly dealt with injuries and they're stuck to their rigid barefoot ways. And they're like, it's an identity for them. And they want to just continue doing it because they feel so great when they're running, but then they keep breaking down with the same type of injuries. And it's, it's really hard to convince them to try something else because you can shift the loads away from that injured area, but not if you have this rigid, um, identity that you don't want to shift away. So that's exactly where my mind went. When you talk about trying new experiences and trying new things. Have you seen that yourself? Oh yeah, all the time. I mean, I used to be one of those people a long time ago, when like the barefoot minimalist stuff first came out, I would not run in anything that had more than a certain heel drop because I felt like my body was going to explode. Then I went to PT school, then I started learning about biomechanics and I'm like, oh, okay, maybe it should be more open. I get to try new shoes, but I can understand that. Something I'm trying to understand. And I think this, the identity component expands beyond footwear and you'll see certain personalities that like they just get latched onto something so much. And I can understand if that's something really important to you, but what I try to, and this doesn't always work, but I always try to go, hey, so I understand this identity is really important for you. Is it, would we be able to try something maybe a little, maybe not all the way, but just something just a, that has a little bit more like something maybe like a Saucony Canvara, for example, that's, you know, it's still pretty flexible. It's a little bit different. It's not a fully traditional shoe. but something we can just give a little bit more. And that's with people, especially when their identity is involved, you've got to maybe also ask like, why is this so important? And not in a condescending way, just understanding there might be some fear avoided stuff going on. And so it's challenging. That's the fun. Patients are never boring because it's not just the biomechanical component. You're working with a living, breathing, very complex human being. And that's actually what makes it fun and also frustrating sometimes, but it's very fun. So. I think maybe having going, can I meet you in the middle with a suggestion like the soccer and can bar or some of the other transitional stuff may be helpful and just going, you know, but certain people are going to do what they're going to do. So, yeah. And I guess if, if you're listening to this and you're thinking you're probably in one of those camps and quite rigid, it's worth knowing that yes, it's, it's can be try something different, but you don't have to totally get rid of your, um, preference to a certain type of shoe. Like you can spend 25% in this new shoe or 50% and then just spend 50-50 and potentially has the potential to thrive in that balance. And you can still stick to the shoe that you love, but also try something else just to help the body out a little bit. Right. Remember these are tools, right? And we said this multiple times, but like having a couple tools is really good. Brody brought up earlier that, you know, on your easy days, something you like, you like something that has a little bit more stability or a little bit more cushion, right? That's being strategic with your shoe choice going, yeah, I'm going to pick something super light and fast on my workout days. But if I want to optimally recover and get ready for the next session, that's really important to me. You might want to try doing something that, that takes a little load or maybe not a little load, but kind of feels a little bit more comfortable when you're not necessarily running as fast and switching stuff up, you know, be strategic, you know, use these, these things are fun, right? And if you, you can. experiment, see how your body reacts. And we know from the evidence, by the way, there is no difference in injury rates between these different shoes, right? Between different heel heights, between minimalist and maximalist shoes, there's just different injury types, not different injury rates. So everybody seems to get injured at the same rate, but it's just the types of injuries experienced are different. So I understand sometimes people get afraid of going, oh, I don't want to try this shoe. It's going to get like, I'm going to get injured because you know, it's Asphalt's unnatural too, but we have that everywhere. So, you know, it's a tool, try it. If you really don't like it, yeah, get it. But if it's caught, if being in a certain shoe has caused some issues, you may not want to, you may need to not spend all your time in it. Yeah, well said. And a good nugget to finish with when talking about the injury rates and just shifting in loads, which makes sense with everything we've talked about prior. In terms of like social media and stuff and links that I'll leave in the show notes, I'll put the... the podcast, the doctors are running podcasts, your YouTube channel and the website. Is there anything else that we need to go to, to find out more about you and your work? Oh, I mean, obviously social media stuff. So a huge shout out to Bachpham, who's our social media manager and we call him our social media wizard. So anything on Instagram is really phenomenal. He's trying to keep up our TikTok. We're on Strava, all these places that he manages. And I have to say, especially Instagram, it's amazing the work he does. And the most important part is translating the overly complicated things that I write and say into actually digestible parts, both on the website on social media. So all kudos to him. So I'd have to say our Instagram and some of our other social media accounts, please give a follow. We're trying to get good information out there to help runners and others kind of understand what they're putting, the art and the science of what they're putting on their feet. So brilliant work, mate. I had a lot of fun and you're obviously super passionate about this. And Um, looking forward to round three, which might be another six to 12 months because shoes are so popular and I'd love to get you on to discuss anything to do with those. That would be awesome Brody. It's always an honor to be on here and I really appreciate getting to talk with you. And that concludes another run smarter lesson. I hope you walk away from this episode feeling empowered and proud to be a run smarter scholar. Because when I think of runners like you who are listening, I think of runners who recognize the power of knowledge, who don't just learn, but implement these lessons. who are done with repeating the same injury cycle over and over again, who want to take an educated active role in their rehab, who are looking for evidence-based long-term solutions and will not accept problematic quick fixes, and last but not least, who serve a cause bigger than themselves and pass on the right information to other runners who need it. I look forward to bringing you another episode and helping you on your Run Smarter path.