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Tyson Popplestone is a Comedian from Melbourne Australia. Join him for a brand new interview each week.
Tyson (00:01.43)
Oh man, it's good to get a chance to sit down with you. I know we had a little bit of scheduling difficulties last week, so I've been looking forward to, gave me the opportunity to go back and listen to a couple more podcasts. In fact, today I was listening to one of the early ones you did with, I only just discovered the podcast, Feel Good, Live More, from back in like 2018. I think it was an older one, but I've listened to a couple of his podcasts and really enjoyed it and I,
Dale Pinnock (00:08.194)
We've got a couple of attempts, haven't we?
Dale Pinnock (00:20.226)
with rongon? Yeah.
Tyson (00:28.642)
I thought I'll just Google your name and see if there's any other podcasts that I might've missed just so I could make sure I was on the right page. And I listened to that today. I was doing a little stretching session here and I thought, oh, that'll be some background conversation to listen to. And it was really enjoyable. It sounds like you guys might've had a bit of history. You sounded like there was a bit of chemistry in the room. You got on quite well.
Dale Pinnock (00:46.625)
I was a good mate of mine, yeah, so it was all good.
Tyson (00:50.286)
Awesome, man. I actually, I discovered you a little while ago. Like a lot of people, I'd been doing some Googling around just some helpful, practical, simple guidance for more effective eating habits, I guess you would say. And the one thing that you stood out to me for and from the reviews I've read and the conversations that I've heard stand out to a lot of people for is you're a real voice of clarity in what is a very confusing conversation. I mean, I was speaking to a friend today.
And we were laughing about how passionate vegans are that they're on the road to health and how passionate carnivores are that they're on the road to health. And both are as adamant and as confident as each other. And I'd heard a bit of your story that you're a vegan for 20 years and it worked quite well for you during the time that you were practicing veganism. But then over the course of you growing up and getting a little older, you started to realize it wasn't as effective for you.
Dale Pinnock (01:40.025)
Yeah. It is. Well, you know what? Here's an interesting thing, right? You, you, you.
Tyson (01:46.574)
But I mean, that conversation is broad and deep and I'm sure you live in it. So.
Dale Pinnock (01:54.55)
When you look at all of these different diets, whether it is a vegan diet, whether it's carnivore, whether it's macrobiotic, whether it's a raw food diet, whatever, all of these, yes, there is that absolute hardcore tribalism, but also you see these amazing stories of people having dramatic health improvements from following them. But if they're so dramatically different from one another, which of them is right? And they all absolutely claim that they're the one that's right.
And even though they're so dramatically different, they're all achieving these incredible results. So what gives? What's going on? Well, there's one single factor that unifies every single one of these approaches. Yet no one likes to talk about that because it takes the kind of exclusivity and sexiness away from their particular approach. And that is they all leave out the junk that makes us sick in the first place. It's not one of those dietary approaches that's saying
Yep, you need to eat McDonald's free three meals a day. You need to smash loads of chocolate. You need to be drinking beer at eight o'clock in the morning. None of them are saying that every single one of them is. Although the picture is dramatically different, all of them are built around whole foods. They're built around natural foods, foods in their natural forms, and they're all cutting out these heavily processed. Very, very highly refined.
food stuffs that seem to dominate the modern diet, which are the things that are making a stick in the first place. So if you remove those from your diet and your focal point is whole foods, you're going to yield similar results. And that's really the key to all of that. That's why you see these amazing results for all of these diets that are dramatically different from one another.
Tyson (03:43.038)
It is interesting when you take a step back and you compare either of those diets to, I know in America they call it the standard American diet. In Australia, I think we're quite similar. I've spent a bit of time in the UK, it seems very similar there. It really fascinates me that there's so much conversation around the controversy between like a vegan and a carnivore diet, but there's no real attention. That's not quite true. There seems very little attention just paid on the amount of processed refined ingredients that we're eating on a fairly regular basis.
Dale Pinnock (03:50.123)
Yes.
Dale Pinnock (04:08.734)
Yeah. This is the, I mean, obviously there's with, with those particular polar opposites, there's two potential arguments. If you're arguing purely on the basis of health, then I would say neither of those approaches are going to be the utopia that people are looking for. If you're talking from a ethical point of view, and if you, if animal welfare and animal ethics
is important to you, there is no discussion. There is no discussion. Veganism will of course be the solution to that whole argument. There is no debating that. If it's purely from the health point of view, then we're probably in different territory. You can absolutely follow a plant-based diet for a lifetime, providing you accept that there are elements that are missing.
that you can easily rectify with supplements. Even the lifelong hardcore advocates like Dr. Greger, for example, they will be the first people to say, look, B12, long chain omega-3 fatty acids, you need to supplement. There's nowhere else you're going to get it from, but you can fill that gap with a supplement and off you go. So yeah, it's interesting and there is that crazy tribalism in the nutrition world.
know, particularly with social media being as dominant as it is and tribalism on social media. Jesus, you've only got to have a look at what happened in COVID to see the, you know, like, you know, lifelong friends turning on each other and ripping each other's eyes out over like differences of opinion. So you put those two things together. It's no wonder that there's, there's so much, well, so much debate, but also so much misunderstanding and
Dale Pinnock (06:01.81)
lot of people, people day to day that don't want to prescribe to one single diet or approach that just want to look after their health. They're the ones that are left completely flummoxed by everything that's going on. And that's, like you were saying, the thing that I've become known for really is bringing that clarity there. That's because I started doing this when the internet didn't exist. Right. So I'm kind of showing my age a little bit there.
I started doing this in the nineties, right? Consumer internet didn't exist. Social media didn't exist. It was, I mean, it was a harder sell, but it was much, there was much less confusion. And the messaging was quite clear. It's like more whole grains, more nuts and seeds, good quality proteins, healthy fats, as much veg as you can possibly shoehorn in. There we go, fantastic. But as soon as there was information available from...
every conceivable direction, it just overwhelmed people. And that's what I want to try and bring to the mix. Obviously, my background, I've got a degree in human nutrition, degree in herbal medicine and a master's degree in nutritional medicine. So I've got the educational background, but I want to translate that into simple, evidence-based, understandable soundbites that will actually move the needle on people's health. The people that don't give a monkey's about...
following in some weird restrictive dietary dogma that just like, I just wanna see my grandchildren grow up. That's really what I wanna try and bring to it.
Tyson (07:38.498)
Yeah, it really interests me that there are so many people out there who are fascinated, keen to really improve their health through their diet as a bit of a foundation, and are just completely overwhelmed. So I guess it's absolutely no surprise that when someone like yourself comes out and says, hey, look, there's a lot of noise, there's a lot of confusion. I've invested my whole life, or at least I think 30 years, I heard you say, into this field. That was even before you went to do your study.
Dale Pinnock (08:03.394)
Yep.
Tyson (08:07.378)
Let me give you some real short, sharp answers. For me, that's what I'm interested in because one thing I've realized fairly quickly is that it doesn't matter whether you've been in the field for 30 years or 60 years, you might've gone down one particular rabbit hole and someone else has gone down another rabbit hole. And this is where I get a little bit overwhelmed and I was really keen to pick your brains about today because I know that there's professionals out there who have been in the industry for as long as you and they'll say, oh, I don't quite agree with this. Like there's a lot of
Um, differing opinions that, that still seem to come about. It doesn't, I don't understand the data well enough to have any confidence in what it is that I'm saying. I just, uh, I feel like I can sense bullshit when I see it. And what you're saying is the opposite of that. It's very much from what I've heard and from what I've learned. It's like, okay, look, these foods have been around for a long time. This is a natural food. It's a whole food. It's a healthy food. Start here. And, and one thing I heard you say on.
Dale Pinnock (09:03.134)
Yeah.
Tyson (09:06.942)
the Feel Good Live More podcast today, which I really related to was, hey, don't be overwhelmed, just change one thing. And I think when it comes to just this sheer abundance of information that's out there, I know in myself, I often feel a little stunted and overwhelmed like, where do I start? How about I just don't change anything? I'm guessing from that advice, that's a really common response.
Dale Pinnock (09:24.683)
Yeah, right. Yeah. Again, it's polar. You get one camp where they're just like, oh bollocks to, I'll just go down the pub instead, forget it. Then you've got the other, they're doing a different thing every week.
You know, this week, they're plant based next week, they're Quito. The week after that, they're, they're going on a yoga retreat. They're, they're real seekers and they're, and they're trying to find the answer. So it tends to, it tends to be that polar. Um, or you get the, the real hardcore ones that are staying in it for the longterm and just, just what I would say to people, like, obviously I said, in that podcast change one thing, but the other thing that I will say to people is give your favorites a facelift.
So rather than trying to dramatically change your life and give up everything that you love, it's like, how about making the things that you love a little bit healthier? How about like, you know, say if your favorite meal is a curry, wicked, try making it yourself. Maybe use some pureed vegetables as the actual base for it and add the spices to that, whatever, those simple things. So you can still enjoy your food. You can still enjoy your life. You can still have the same culinary experiences that you enjoy.
You can still have family meals together without tears, tantrums and chaos, but you're actively taking steps towards improving your health at the same time. So that's that tends to be the kind of people that I'm working with. And often they would have come from one of the two extreme camps and been like, OK, neither of those approaches work. Let's kind of come back to the middle and come back to the more sensible approaches.
But now you're right. It is massively overwhelming and it's decision fatigue, I think, a lot of the time. I mean, it's like things with marketing, like the more decisions people have to make, the less chances that they're going to purchase a product. So it's that same thing. We get to a point where if there's too much choice, we just switch off and we're less receptive.
Tyson (11:06.245)
Mm.
Tyson (11:31.586)
Yeah. It was interesting. I, uh, I was a vegetarian for about seven or eight years, and mine was probably more ethical, though I'd been listening to a lot of Rich Rolls podcasts and had heard about how much, um, as an ultra endurance athlete, I've always enjoyed long distance running, how much that vegan diet worked for him. And I thought, okay, well, um, and I hadn't done too much research and I hadn't really listened to too many other people. And I thought, oh, well, if veganism is working for him and he's an ultra endurance athlete and he seems to be going quite well for his age.
Maybe it's something that I venture into. And I think I justified it a little more or my crutch to it, I guess, was the ethical thing. I was a real city boy. I'd never really lived on a farm. I'd never had to kill any animal. All the animals that I'd eaten had been bought down at our local supermarkets. And I'd never seen the process. And I had a conversation with my brother-in-law who lives in Oregon in the United States, a really keen hunter in about 2014. He goes out and regularly hunts elk, bear.
Dale Pinnock (12:16.252)
Yeah.
Tyson (12:28.534)
whatever it is that's in his area. And I remember driving down to him, at this stage I was still eating meat, and I said, it's really cruel what you're doing. And he goes, what are you talking about? I said, the fact you're gonna go out and kill an animal. He goes, well, first of all, acknowledge the fact that you eat it. Someone else is just doing your dirty work. Second of all, and this is something I've noticed a lot with people who hunt and potentially going down a little bit of a different rabbit hole to where we should, but a lot of hunters that I hear speak,
Dale Pinnock (12:45.307)
Yeah.
Tyson (12:57.874)
speak about the hunting and the production of meat with far more respect than I think what you're going to see on a supermarket shelf, you know, from the way that it died in a natural state, especially if they're good hunters. One thing my brother-in-law is passionate about is refining his craft, refining his shot, so that it's a really quick death, which I think is a really good point. But then beyond just the respect that it sounds like he shows, I mean, I speak to him and he sounds as though he respects the animals as much, if not more.
Dale Pinnock (13:17.801)
Yeah.
Tyson (13:25.854)
than what so many vegans and vegetarians I spoke to for so long did. But the other thing that I respected about his particular approach was it, it just seems to be a natural way to live. And I know this is very subjective, but I watched one episode of Alone, that US show where they get dropped off on the wilderness, say, okay, how long can you survive? And no one was there going, all right, I better plant a blueberry bush. Their first.
Their first instinct was, I've got to find fish, I've got to find an animal. And that was a trigger point for me. For me, I think I've just lived a relatively sheltered life and haven't seen how people have lived for so many hundreds of thousands of years.
Dale Pinnock (14:13.045)
Yeah.
to one extreme or another. I think, I think obviously there was variation dependent on where these particular tribal groups were located. So obviously if it was sort of Europe or Africa or Asia, there's going to be a lot more abundance than if it was Antarctica. But still there was only one choice. It's like you, you eat what you can find. They're not exactly going to be able to nip down to Tesco's.
It's that's been the driving.
sort of dietary decider for the human species since it since it began. I would say that I that human beings are omnivorous. I think we're probably slightly more geared towards plants dominating the diet. But I don't I don't for a second feel we should be plant exclusive. And I think we should probably be more fish than.
land animals, because even if you even if you just look at it logically, you look at like the amount of water that covers the Earth's surface and the abundance that was brought, I just think naturally we evolved to a fish opportunistic land animal eaters. Roots, leaves, berries, those kinds of things, which, lo and behold, comes back to that whole food diet.
Tyson (15:41.881)
Yeah.
Dale Pinnock (15:42.646)
The reason it works so well for us is because that's what we're designed to eat.
Tyson (15:48.042)
When it comes to the conversation around fish, this is an interesting one to me because you'd scratch the surface there a little bit. And I've heard this quite a lot recently. I'd love to hear your thoughts on it. And I'm not sure whether this is just more of an Australian problem and our oceans, but I've heard a lot of concern around the mercury levels during the fish and some of the neurodegenerative, if I've said that word right, impacts that an overexposure to mercury can have. Is there any validity to that claim? Is it overhyped? Is it...
Dale Pinnock (16:03.422)
Aha!
Dale Pinnock (16:16.257)
Whoa.
Of course, excess mercury can be an issue, but here's the clincher. I had this conversation with Professor Joseph Hiblin. He was like head of nutrition at the World Health Organization for a while. He had done a lot of work with long chain omega-3 fatty acids and brain development, mental illness. Also how dietary composition affected...
reoffending rates in reformed prisoners. Some very interesting work that he did. So one of the global leaders on long chain omega-3 fatty acids and human health. Long chain omega-3 fatty acids predominantly found in oily fish and grazing cattle. I asked him about this and he was like, very easy, very easy response. Next time someone asks you about the mercury issue, ask them if they live within 30 miles of a road.
And it's, and I was like, okay, he said, because from exhaust fumes, they will be taking in, I mean, when, when you see mercury in fish, it's like homeopathic doses is there, but it's like, you know, and that's good, just tiny. It's like, you know, there's, there's hardly any, even though, yes, it is there. And it is something that delivers its effects in like micromolar doses. He said the amount that people are actually
Tyson (17:19.483)
Hehehe
Dale Pinnock (17:47.334)
environmental pollutants, exhaust fumes, for example, even like industrial production, just from the air in modern day planet Earth, unless they happen to live in Bhutan or something, they're going to be taken in these high levels. That's going to be in one day, they will consume more than if they ate fish for three meals a day for an entire lifetime. So it's like, yeah, absolutely it's a problem. But
Tyson (18:01.05)
Hehehehe
Dale Pinnock (18:16.702)
unless you're, you know, unless you're planning on colonizing Mars anytime soon, you're not going to escape it. But the consequences of not getting enough long chain omega three fatty acids far outweigh any potential issues that those levels of mercury may bring, you know, just things like low grade subclinical chronic inflammation, which is the key driver of cardiovascular disease.
is part of the pathophysiology in the development of type two diabetes, which is linked to Alzheimer's, which is linked to absolutely cancer instigation. That's one thing. Then the neurological development, so fetal neurological development and a million of other variables that long chain omega three fatty acids control, not having enough of those in the diet is way more harmful than a potentially small bit of mercury, which your body is able to.
deal with. And if you live in a city, then don't even think about bringing that argument to the table because basically your lungs will basically be filled with mercury.
Tyson (19:26.502)
That is such a great response. This is what I mentioned, or this is what I meant when I said you scratch the surface a little bit and you realise how much you don't know. I've heard that argument so many times and not once have I heard someone mention living within 30 miles of a main road. It's a, I mean, the lifestyle factors is something to navigate. And I wonder what it is about people that find the conversation around the exposure of mercury through fish, such more engaging conversation or an interesting conversation than addressing what's in their front yard. Perhaps.
it's easy just to cut fish out than it is to move out to the outskirts of town.
Dale Pinnock (19:58.662)
I think everyone likes a bogeyman, you know, and particularly in the nutrition and health world, everyone likes a bogeyman. I mean, my God, you speak to some people and it's like, you know, if someone brings gluten into their house, they need to call a priest. It's like, you know, this, there are these, these particular
elements in our diets that people can really get passionate about why they're bad, usually with virtually no understanding of the complexities of the subject. Now there's a shock. It's just part of that tribalism. It's just an extension of that tribalism. Some things I think are a genuine cause for concern. Excess sugar, probably a bad idea.
refined seed oils, sunflower oil and margarine and that kind of stuff. Probably a bad idea. Obviously don't go out of your way to consume mercury. Absolutely horrific for you. Are you going to feasibly ever going to be able to avoid it? No. Not unless you spend your life wearing breathing apparatus.
So if that's the case and you know that there's a detrimental impact of not consuming those kinds of foods because other things that they contain, why would you roll the dice that way? It just doesn't seem to make sense to me. Obviously, you know what, people don't want, but that's where it comes from. It just comes from the fact that people love a bogeyman. There's the tribalism.
something at one point in history regarding that conversation resonated with some specific personal bias, belief, worldview, whatever, because there was that resonance there, all of a sudden that rabbit hole was the one that they decided to go down. And there you go. It's like the recipe for that kind of strong polarizing view. And it's important, especially like, you know, from a
perspective of a scientist, you remove yourself from all that. You know, you allow yourself to be completely a blank canvas. It's like, what does the evidence say at the minute? The evidence says this. If in two weeks time, the evidence blatantly strongly show something else. That's that. That's the message I'll give. It's like, okay, so the evidence is now going, going in this direction, but that doesn't get the clicks, does it?
doesn't get the click-through rate. It doesn't get the likes. It doesn't get the algorithm juicy. And that's the thing. That's the other thing that we're up against as well. Because there's so many voices and so many people trying to forge careers and trying to get attention. Let's be honest, we are in an attention economy, especially working online. That muddies the water as well. And it's very easy. I mean, it's no wonder there's so much hysteria around so many
subjects, whether we're talking food and nutrition, whether we're talking politics, whether we're talking self-identity, all of these things that are creating these incredibly powerful polarizing passionate arguments. So much of that has come from this, from the fact that we have this attention economy. People are doing things to manipulate algorithms, to manipulate human psychology, to drive action in terms of clicking things and reading things.
You put that all together in a time where.
I think I don't think there's ever been another time in history where one is kind of like the tale of two cities, isn't it? Best of times, worst of times. We have such abundance in so many ways right now, but we have such a high, intense level of insecurity and fear. You kind of bring those polarizing arguments using that kind of psychological manipulation in environments where
it can be instantly accessed, then it does create these very, very extreme views. And it's, um, there's evidence of that in every aspect of our lives now. So it's, it's no different from any of these other polarizing arguments. I don't think there's, there's just these, these tiny little micro camps within it. And these, these kind of little, little tribes within tribes. It's, uh, it's a funny old world. So I got a bit deep there, man. Kind of like got.
Tyson (24:36.726)
Yeah, during the 90s. No, it's good, it's good. I really enjoyed that take. It was interesting during the 90s, I grew up in 19, I was born in 87. I grew up through the 90s and have vague memories of, because I was a relatively health conscious young kid, probably bordering on the line of like obsessive compulsive. I mean, with whatever I did, but specific regards to sort of food and things that I was eating. But.
One thing that I got absolutely sucker punched by as a young guy was thinking I was eating really healthily by eating a low fat diet. My kitchen cupboard was filled with 97% fat free, fruit bars, muesli bars, cereals. I was drinking juice. I had, and I've got the feelings to prove it. I had probably the worst diet you could imagine. I look back and I think, oh my gosh, I just, I didn't know what I didn't know. And I thought as a young aspiring athlete, I was doing the best thing for my body. And then I look back now,
36. I go, hang on, it was fairly obvious to me even now, or it should have been obvious to me even then, that highly processed diet wasn't optimal by any means. Do you think at the moment, I've heard some talk around like butter coming back and maybe the reverse side of the situation I just explained, is there anything that people are doing now that in 30 years, we're going to look back? I mean, I'm sure there's a lot of things that people are doing now.
aspiring to be healthy like I was as a young fella in 2023, that he's so clearly unhealthy and you can already see it.
Dale Pinnock (26:11.554)
Kind of going back to the rise in veganism, the vegan meat alternatives and the weird
Tyson (26:19.672)
Mm.
Tyson (26:22.714)
Hehehehehehe
Dale Pinnock (26:25.894)
are not food by anyone's standards. Those things are awful. You may as well be straight back down at McDonald's. That's going to be better for you than that rubbish. I think that is going to certainly prove to be problematic. I think maybe people go in too far the other direction. It's like, yeah, we've kind of figured out that we probably shouldn't be going down this ultra low fat, which basically will end up being high sugar, highly processed direction. And we should be
natural healthy fats like butter and olive oil and avocados and all that kind of stuff. But some people have basically used that as like a hall pass to just go mentally live on bacon and cream. And it's like, cool, you might, you know, you might fit into clothes that you've not worn for 10 years, but in the next 10 years, it won't matter because you'll be dead. So it's just like, you know, there's, there's some very, very extreme responses to some of these changes.
good news about bad habits, don't they? It's just like, what, what you mean? I can live on bacon all the time. This is great. I mean, they'll love it. I think, I think it's, those are going to be the two big ones for me. I mean, there's certainly the heavily processed plant based foods. I mean, it's a no brainer that the more minimally processed whole plant foods you incorporate into your diet, the healthier that your diet's going to be.
Tyson (27:26.901)
Hmm.
Dale Pinnock (27:50.186)
going to be more fiber, there's going to be more micronutrients, there's going to be more antioxidants and protective phytochemicals and all of these fantastic substances that plants bring. That's a no-brainer. What is worrying is when the diet is white rice and fake chicken with some kind of dirty sauce with it. It's like that is a fast track to...
type two diabetes to some pretty serious issues. So in my opinion, those are the two extremes. So, you know, when people talk about the keto diet, the keto diet can be very, very good. If you're not living on bacon and cream, instead you're having not beautiful, naturally fatty cuts of meat and nuts and avocados and olive oil and all that beautiful stuff. When it's done with whole foods, when it's done with natural eating patterns.
fantastic. As soon as you start using it as a way to incorporate bad habits again, then it's going to be destructive. So I think any deviation from that simple message of like, just get back to basics, just get back to whole foods is always going to prove to be problematic as problematic as was that same message in the absolutely dominating things in the nineties.
I'm 10 years older than you. And so, um, so I was a 77 baby and.
particularly in the eighties, there was a hardcore low fat message. That was when all the kind of certain breakfast cereals that are apparently special were kind of dominating the airwaves and the adverts. And there was always these svelte, scantily clad women that have just walked out of a fitness class and then go and have their bowl of cereal, all of that kind of messaging around this low fat movement.
And it was the biggest public health cock up in history. It was the biggest driver of degenerative disease that we've ever seen. It caused more deaths than cigarette smoking ever would cause more deaths than alcohol abuse ever would cause more deaths than physical inactivity ever would. These dietary patterns. I mean, if you look, I don't know what the picture's like in Australia. I mean, I know the standard of healthcare over there is in a different league. I mean, I've got.
I've got family in Fremantle, although I've never been, never set foot in Australia, it's on the list. And I know the standard of healthcare is just another world. I mean, we are screwed in this country. As wonderful as an idea the NHS was, it's just buckling under the pressure now in a multitude of ways. The biggest drains on it are type two diabetes, obesity, cardiovascular disease and preventable cancers.
Tyson (30:22.414)
Yeah.
Tyson (30:44.846)
Hmm.
Dale Pinnock (30:49.422)
And what are those related to? It's the lifestyle. And that's not pointing the finger. We are in an environment, certainly here, where the quality of food is generally very, very poor. The quality of life is generally very, very poor. People are struggling a great deal financially, which curbs their choices as well. So it's not that I'm saying people are at fault, but there's no getting away from the fact that those
conditions and those issues are being driven by our lifestyles. And diet is the main part of that. When we were told to abandon the fats and reduce meat intake and reduce any sources of fat instead, one, consume the heart healthy vegetable oils like margarine and your kind of crisp and dry type oils to fry your food in. And
build our diets around starches that literally through petrol on the bonfire of chronic disease that was what started to drive this increase in cardiovascular disease and obesity and all the rest of it. So I think there's I think those kind of things are going to be just as detrimental person.
Tyson (32:02.362)
Yeah, yeah. Uh, one of the most memorable moments I had around just the lifestyle factors and the food that we eat was in 2015, I spent a month in, in Nepal. I went through the Himalayas to base camp and along the way we were stopping by just random villages. And I mean, there was a lot of potatoes. There was a lot of rice. There was a lot of stuff that each village was, was growing or getting dropped in from not too far away. And I thought as a friendly Australian, um, with a bag full of sweets.
Dale Pinnock (32:20.36)
Yeah.
Tyson (32:31.754)
I had a Mars bar and I remember going up to one of the young kids there. Oh, there was a group of young kids and they were all very friendly. And I said, Hey, you know, I've got a treat here for you. And they were, they were really excited and I took it out and one kid took a bite. And I'm not kidding. He spattered on the ground. And the reason his mom explained to me, she goes, you know, it's, it's too much. Like it was too sweet. And it stuck with me because I thought what, what six year old kid in Australia would be given a Mars bar.
Spit it out on the ground because just the flavor was so foreign to him It was something that he just wasn't used to and not interested in it It really shocked me and then you look here and I mean I've seen the ads that you're talking about and every now And again if I go down a YouTube rabbit hole
I mean, some of those ads that you described actually make me think, you know, maybe I will go back and get a box of Froot Loops if I can look that good. Maybe it's worth it, despite my better judgment. But I mean, it's amazing what a six foot lady with blonde hair and a good bikini can do to what you know it's a... It's very interesting, but you're right. It takes a certain amount of humility and it is very tribal and...
Dale Pinnock (33:30.903)
Our rational thought goes out the window, right?
Tyson (33:41.454)
There's so many strong voices in the subject. And I was really curious to hear a little more of your story. Because if I'm not wrong, I think you said you were a vegan for 20 years in the podcast I listened to today. And then I'm not sure what you would call your current diet. But could you explain that journey a little bit?
Dale Pinnock (33:57.306)
My current diet, it's just a whole foods diet. I mean, I obviously, you know, as soon as you get past that 45 point, it gets a lot harder to kind of keep everything, keep everything ticking over, do you know what I mean? So, well, you still got another 10 years you get, so don't rub it in. You know, you're 35 or 36, you're gonna be flying at the minute.
Tyson (34:12.408)
I don't know what you mean. I've got nine years to go. I don't know anything.
Dale Pinnock (34:24.786)
I say, so my current diet is I'm quite a fan of car backloading. That works for me. So the average day would be like. So scrambled eggs with spinach and red onion and a bit of Feta cheese for breakfast lunch will be like a massive salad built around some kind of protein. So usually a chicken or fish and it's a dead salad. So like maybe spinach and peppers and red onions and olives and all that good stuff.
And then in the evening, and then I usually will do a session with my PT about three, four o'clock in the afternoon. And then in my evening meal, that's when I'll that's when I'll kind of have my carbs. I'll have like, you know, like a great big mound of sweet potato wedges and some kind of protein and loads and loads of green vegetables. So it's just whole foods. It is much more protein centric because when you get to middle age and beyond maintaining muscle mass.
is of vital importance. Sarcopenia is a serious issue in older age. So if you start maintaining muscle mass when you get to your 40s, when you're in your 60s, you're going to be glad that you did because obviously muscle mass will start to decline from the age of about 35, 38. It will start to reduce unless you're consistently resistance training and you've got a good high protein diet to actually support that. And that can be plant by the way.
You don't have don't feel that I'm saying it's going to be meat. You can you can have beans and pulses and lentils and tofu and tempeh and all those beautiful foods as well. So it doesn't have to be like prescriptive like that. But protein does need to be a focal point to keep on top of that, maintaining that muscle mass. And I find eating like that, I can I can stay very, very lean for my age. My energy is insane.
like zero health issues, cholesterol's fine, blood pressure's fine, inflammatory markers are fine, everything works perfectly. If I deviate, if I start to go more carb heavy, I just can't tolerate them in the way that I used to. I will start to balloon up. It negatively affects my cholesterol quite drastically if I have too many carbohydrates. But on the flip side, if I cut them out completely, then I crash and burn as well.
So there's that kind of middle ground that I find that backloading them after a workout actually. Enhances my insulin sensitivity and the way that my body uses the carbohydrates in the healthiest possible way. Yeah, it's just what's working for me at the minute, and I kind of find that.
Tyson (36:49.807)
Hmm.
Dale Pinnock (37:13.89)
our needs will change considerably at different stages of life. To be fair, when I was vegan, I was in my 20s. In your 20s, you can basically live on pizza and beer and all the rest of it, have two hours sleep, then get out of bed and go to work. Yes, come on. You try to do that shit when you're 45 and it's just like, it'll take you a week to recover, just to get out of bed.
Tyson (37:39.682)
Yeah.
Dale Pinnock (37:40.714)
You know, so different stages in our life, we need, you know, we need to obviously approach things differently. Um, and that's something to always be aware of. You'll find that as you move into advanced years, like late sixties into seventies, appetite will start to start to change and, you know, you'll need to look at fortifying the diet in different ways then, so it's something to always be aware of the, the needs will change across the lifespan, but yeah, that's what my, my current diet looks like.
Tyson (38:09.858)
Yeah. It's so amazing to hear you speak about it because it's really not rocket science, is it? And it must, I can't imagine what it's like in your shoes to hear the conversations that you have, because I mean, I've been quite fascinated, as I've mentioned for diet in a long time. And as a result, I've been exposed to some of my own misunderstandings and some of my own blinds to, um, probably just some pretty good marketing, but now.
When I speak to a number of friends who are, I've got one of my good friends in particularly, he's been saying for a long time, he knows he needs to work on his diet and it's a conversation he's had. And he would tell you this honestly, or openly that he's been having this conversation with himself for seven years. And I think for him, it's the overwhelm factor. I guess some personalities like to get buried down a little more in data and some people find it a little overwhelming, but I'm definitely going to send this to him because I think the amount of people that can benefit from just going, Hey, look, it's not rocket science. In fact, Michael Pollan.
had a really good quote that stuck with me and feel free to correct it. But I think this strikes pretty nicely. He said, eat food, not too much, mostly plants.
Dale Pinnock (39:14.005)
That's exactly it.
Tyson (39:16.118)
And it just seems like a really good, yeah.
Dale Pinnock (39:16.522)
Yeah, that's that. There's a couple of slightly cheesier ones that I use. I mean, they are a bit hammy, but they sum it up perfectly well. The first one is if it ran, swam, grew or flew, then eat it. Everything else leave behind. That's one. And then another one, which is even cheesier and probably grammatic disaster as well is real food doesn't contain ingredients. Real food is.
Tyson (39:21.801)
Hehehehehe
Tyson (39:32.846)
That's a good one.
Dale Pinnock (39:45.778)
ingredients. I mean, yeah, probably. It is. It sums it up perfectly, even if it does completely bastardize the English language.
Tyson (39:47.918)
It's a great point.
Tyson (39:55.126)
See, that might say more about me because to me, it sounded like a really good phrase that should have no questions asked about it. So for you, in your 20s, you were like, even when you were doing your vegan diet, were you doing the vegan diet that you sort of laughed at that we're going to look back at in 20 years of today? You were just, you were still doing a whole food vegan diet. Okay.
Dale Pinnock (40:13.31)
Whole food plant-based, yeah. Yeah. Because, yeah, firstly, there wasn't those options available. I mean, like you go to a vegan section in a health food store and it's basically like flavored tofu that'd be like, as far as it went, all of these weird and wonderful meat alternatives didn't exist. They just didn't exist. It was still a very, very fringe thing, veganism at that point. And I would say some of the information was better.
I mean, because there wasn't as much of it. It was actually coming from better sources. And yeah, my diet was fruit, vegetables, nuts, seeds, whole grains and legumes. That was it. And so I think I've been lucky to actually build that healthy foundation. I got into nutrition when I was 15.
and started out and then I started working in the industry when I was 16, when I left school. So I went straight into it and been into it ever since. So I think I was lucky that I found it that early and was able to build those foundational habits. But for people that are new to it that are closer to our kind of age, it's they're going to go through some real changes when they, when they, when they, when they make some of the key changes, when you're consistent with, with a good whole food diet,
things will just change in layers. You know, the superficial things will happen first. Your sleep will improve. Well, not that better sleep is superficial, but your sleep will get better. Your energy levels get better. You start, you know, you start to notice your skin brighten up a little bit. But when you start to get the cognitive changes and when you're the health of your brain as an organ and a system improves, your insight into things.
will improve because you're it's like it's like the processor has been upgraded. Do you know what I mean? It's like your ability to understand the complexities of things will change because that system that is responsible for making sense of that information is working in a far better way. So when all that stuff starts coming along, you start to really realize how much of a profound impact healthy habits will make on your life. And I think once you experience that there's no going back.
Tyson (42:36.922)
This is one of the conversations, the bloke that I just mentioned before, I've thrown him under a bus a couple of times, but I caught up with him during the week. And he was saying, so just for a little bit of context, he's got two kids, one of them's about to go and do sleep training. These guys are getting such poor sleep at the moment, absolutely terrible. Both managing, him and his wife are pretty much working near or thereabouts full time. Their situation sounds like an absolute nightmare at the moment.
And we caught up for coffee unsurprisingly the other day because it was 11 a.m. and we both had two kids and coffee is just a regular ingredient that we take part in to survive. It's essential. But one thing he said is that the week before we caught up, he goes, I reckon I had the worst diet week that I've had in 15 years. And he said that for him, it was like a comedy of errors or a snowball effect where his boy woke up and they were up at 1 a.m. most nights till about three or four a.m.
Dale Pinnock (43:10.233)
It's essential.
Tyson (43:31.078)
He said, I was exhausted, so I got lazy. So rather than having anything good, I just ordered pizza. And that turned into a follow-up effect. He said, but even he said, and this is to, I mean, put an exclamation point next to your point is that as he started going throughout the week, he started to notice that what felt foggy on Monday, by Thursday, it just felt like an absolute nightmare. He wasn't thinking straight. He was physically exhausted. He was mentally exhausted. Obviously, a combination of sleep deprivation and really poor food. But
This is a common part of so many of our lives. And I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on supplements because, well, I know there's some supplements that you recommend, but I feel as though some of the conversations I have, there's maybe an overhype on supplements and an under focus on the things that you've been teaching us in this conversation, that whole foods, just natural foods, that whole food diet, essentially. I guess as a start point, there's two questions there.
What are your thoughts on that? Is there an overhype on what supplements are capable of doing without a focus on this other stuff or are they really that good in a world where I've heard a lot of the soil is undernourished and we're just not able to get even the best nutrients from the so-called highest quality food?
Dale Pinnock (44:46.62)
Yeah, it's, it's a very interesting subject this and ultimately I would just say to people a supplement is a tool. You know, if you think that it's going to replace a healthy diet, then you're
massively wrong. It's something you do as well as. It's called a supplement. It's supplementing a good diet. As a clinical practitioner, I'm using supplements all the time when I'm working with patients. If there's specific issues that I need to address, you've got to remember that vitamins, minerals, trace elements, phytochemicals, these are biochemical facilitators. So in the body, they either make something happen or they make something that makes something happen.
So they regulate every conceivable chemical reaction in our body. And as such, the application of supplements, when you know what you're doing, can elicit a therapeutic effect in a very similar way that a drug can, you know, it can reduce a certain chemical pathway, it can activate a certain chemical pathway, it can manipulate biochemical events.
In that context, in that respect, they're incredibly powerful. And they're things that are used in clinic all of the time for that exact reason.
In terms of general use, obviously with those kind of specific nutrients used in that way, that needs to be delivered under the guidance of a practitioner. Absolutely. Because do not think for a second that just because something is natural, that it can't do any damage. Hell yeah, it can. I mean, just try Hemlock, for example. Then when it comes to the general use, I would say that
touching on what you brought up. Because there's no way of absolutely guaranteeing the amount of nutrients that are in our food, a good daily multivitamin. Certainly in this part of the world, probably less of an issue for you guys, a good vitamin D supplement, because in the UK the sun is a rumor. It's either that or it's so hot and muggy that we're just like, man, stop!
It's just like there's no middle ground. I mean, we can't, you know, we just can't win.
Dale Pinnock (47:18.562)
Vitamin D is certainly one to think about. Then omega-3 fatty acids, the long-chain omega-3 fatty acids, I do strongly recommend that people supplement with those as well, just because of that inflammatory management stuff and because they're so important for so many different body systems. Those three nutrients, well, those three supplements, sorry, because one is obviously a multi, won't do any harm, won't cause any issues and are a good idea for most people. Then we move into another thing that you touched on, which was some of the claims. Now,
This is where things can get comical at times. You look at some of these supplements that are out there that basically...
Dale Pinnock (47:59.338)
If you believe kind of half the things that are written about them, you know, like they make you fly or walk on water or eat bullets. Do you know what I mean? It's like, it's like, okay, there's a lot of hyperbole here because people are just trying to sell the product. It's like, you know, this will stop you aging. This will put hairs on your chest, whatever. There's a lot of nonsense there and it's very difficult for people to separate fact from fiction. I would say if it sounds like it's the answer to everything,
then that's a giant red flag. Um, and if, if it's kind of sounds like it's blown out of proportion, then it probably has been. But in simple terms, yes, supplements are a very, very useful tool in the right context, in the right application. And you have to have the right kind of expectation from it as well. If you're expecting it to be the answer to your problems, then you're going to be disappointed. But if you know that there's a specific reason you're taking it, and certainly in the context, how I.
Tyson (48:39.055)
Hmm.
Tyson (48:53.53)
Yeah.
Dale Pinnock (48:58.81)
prescribe them to people, it's part of the therapeutic plan. Then I know that we're taking it to achieve a certain objective. Then that's obviously where they come into their own.
Tyson (49:10.174)
Yeah, well to go back to something you said earlier about the rumour of the sun in the UK before I get to my other point, one of my funniest memories is walking through Hampstead Heath. I lived in Tuffnell Park when I was there on the Northern line. I don't know where you're based at near Camden Town.
Dale Pinnock (49:25.02)
I used to live in N3, so I was just around the corner eventually.
Tyson (49:28.402)
I probably ran past you a few times. One of my funniest memories, I remember I had my cat man do jacket on my big puffer. It was a cold day, but the sun was shining. I remember I was gonna go for an hour walk. I got to Hampstead Heath, I'm not kidding. I got to the top of the hill and there was a guy in a pair of Speedos, I don't know if you call them there, like swimmers, on top of a hill. That was all he was wearing. The sun was out, but it was freezing. And I remember, I...
Dale Pinnock (49:51.83)
I'll tell you what, on hamster teeth, mate, you're probably lucky that's all you saw, because let me tell you, all sorts goes on there. Just keep it away from the woods. That's all I'm saying. It catch a dose.
Tyson (50:02.716)
I assumed being so close to Camden town. Yeah, so close to Camden town. That doesn't surprise me at all. The other thing I wanted to say was I had a company, I won't name them just for their own sake. It's a big company, not that it'd do them any damage, but they reached out asking if I would do a review of three of their products. And I said, I'm really interested to try it.
And like what you said, they promoted themselves as American company, FDA approved, all natural subjects, all natural ingredients, sorry. And I thought I will give it a go here. And then it was a little bit of the, hey, we'll be able to bite through bullets approach that you just said there. I felt as though some of the containers were ticking 16 different boxes. I thought this is a magic pill. And I actually emailed them back today because I said, oh, because they were offering a nice amount of money. So it made it very tempting just to do a review. But I thought, okay.
I'll tell you what I'll say in the review. You let me know if you're still happy for me to do it because I want to be honest and I also want your money. But it turned out they weren't honest in the review that I was going to offer it so they left it. But it seems like one of those industries that they'd be, it took discipline for me not to take the offer because when money's being thrown around, it's amazing what you can get someone to say. So I never know. And I've read a number of the reviews online and I don't know how many of these other people were being paid, but there was a lot of really
Dale Pinnock (50:55.215)
I'm going to take a few minutes to get back to you.
Dale Pinnock (51:14.095)
Well, yeah.
Tyson (51:19.654)
high praise being sung about this company. I thought that's purely anecdotal, obviously. One of them was asleep, yeah.
Dale Pinnock (51:24.914)
Yeah, it's you know what, it's kind of sketchy. There's two sides of the supplements industry. There's that there's that kind of slightly more nefarious side. I mean, diet ones are the worst. I've been offered six figures to get involved with diet companies and I've just told them to piss off. It's like, look, yeah, it'd be like, you know, what it'd be kind of kind of great for a while because there'd be a bit of money there. But
Tyson (51:38.886)
I would have said yes, 100%.
Tyson (51:44.568)
Mm.
Dale Pinnock (51:48.438)
That's not one. That's not my motivation to. There's plenty of ways to make money, honestly. And three, my the validity of. My position in this industry. The position that I've come to be in the trust that people have in me. And.
Tyson (51:55.368)
Mm-hmm.
Dale Pinnock (52:18.134)
that sort of clarity and neutrality can't be bought. There is no price. Even if it's seven figures, it would still be the same answer. It's just like nothing is worth selling your soul. There's nothing is worth bullshitting people, lying to people, giving people false hope, because a lot of the people that come to me are people that really, really in a bad way.
Tyson (52:33.286)
Mm.
Dale Pinnock (52:45.346)
People that are really sick. It's not often that someone is like, oh, I just want to lose 10 pounds. Like, you know, they don't come to me for that. It's usually people that are in a really, really bad place. And I would not be able to live with myself.
to lie to someone in that position just for money. That's like, you know, I mean, karmically that's like, it's a horrific thing. So there was a lot of that happens in the supplement industry, and especially for a lot of the influencers. And you know what, I don't blame them. When I was 21, if someone come along and was like, you know, here's 150 grand to tell people how wonderful this is.
I tell you what, I'd be tempted. I mean, because like at that age, when how often are you going to see that amount of money in one hit? So you can kind of understand it, but that kind of influence aside. Influence of facing side of the supplement industry is quite nefarious for that reason. But then you've got the other side. OK, then you've got the kind of people that are producing supplements that you will find on sale in health food stores. So I used to be technical director of a company called Viridian.
that's over here, I was involved in formulating some of the products and some of the educational pieces. These kinds of companies are so ethical in the way that they do things. They are the first, they are the first people that when someone gets on the phone, it's like, will this help me with that? It would be like, no, it's not going to help you. They will be the first people to give these people the answers they want, help them to find the right kind of practitioner, the right kind of guidance, be absolutely crystal clear about what the product will do, what the product
that will do things so ethically, those are the kind of brands that you can always trust. So that's one of the pieces of advice that I would give people. It's like, you know, if you're interested in supplements, go to your local health store. Don't just buy some random shit off the internet. Go to a health store. You can talk to someone in that store. You can get guidance. You know, these people in the store aren't on commission. They're just, you know, they're people that are trained about the products that are in there. They can give you advice.
They're not, you know, there's not a bias there. It's just like, this one does this, this helps with that. That's a problem. That's not, you can get, you can get that kind of information and those, that side of the industry, one, they're the, they're the brands that have been around for the longest to the heart, isn't it? You know, and these things are done from a, from a, from an ethical point of view. There are a lot of people that have jumped on the, you know, especially because there's, there's so many opportunities with the internet now that have kind of
jumped on the e-commerce model and they're like, Oh, what's, you know, what's one of the highest growth areas and e-commerce? Oh, it's, it's wellness and supplements. Let's kind of have a little piece of that. And using all of the methodologies that we spoke about earlier, things, things that get the algorithm juicy, things that buy into those elements of human psychology that drive certain responses and certain patterns of behavior.
That's where that's kind of where it comes from. And it's understandable that people do that. But I would really like to drive that message home that if you actually give a shit about your health and you're doing this because you really want results and you really want things that make a difference. Go to the go to the health food store, go and see those kind of brands that aren't marketing themselves all over social media that aren't using.
know, some Muppet from Love Island to promote their products that are just actually doing things for the right reasons. That's where you'll get the highest quality. And I'm not going to lie, sometimes they might be a little bit pricier or whatever, but they're, you know, they're things that are done in the right way. Although saying that you see some of these, some of these online things and they can be hideously expensive. Yeah. And that, you know, that's not to say, I think it's really important here, you know, on the flip side of that. That's also not to say that
a lot of these brands that are based on online marketing are all terrible as well. A friend of mine, Alyssa has an amazing, amazing supplement, a women's supplement brand and their main model of marketing is social media, but it's just their marketing. They're not paying anyone else to talk about the product. They are talking about the product and that's a different thing. It's difficult. And some of these people are very good marketers. You've got to get a...
A good marketer, a good creative, a good copywriter, and you could, you could, you know, you could sell ice to the Eskimos, but.
Tyson (57:21.392)
Hmm.
Dale Pinnock (57:23.454)
If you want that independent advice, go to an independent store.
Tyson (57:28.818)
Yeah, yeah. This next question, I'll give you one more. Could perhaps be a conversation for another podcast for another day, because I imagine this runs far and wide as well. But someone's listening to this. They're like, all right, I know what I need to do. It's Whole Foods Diet. Tomorrow, I'm going to go down to the supermarket. I'm going to get all the fruits, all the vegetables and get started there. Does it matter? Should it be organic? Does it not matter if it's organic?
Dale Pinnock (57:50.958)
Ah, this question comes up all the time. I would say to people, it really depends how far you are on your journey and what your current diet looks like. If your diet is beer and pizza.
Just these implants, just these real food. It doesn't matter whether it's organic or not. It's just like your body's just gonna be like, thank you. It's just gonna be so happy that there's some actual nutrients entering it. If you're a little further along on your journey and you want to maybe take things on a step further, then organic can have some benefits. Now I'm not a toxicologist, so I've got no idea about individual pesticides and what this can do, what that can do. That's not my jam, right? What I can tell you is,
that many of the protective phytochemicals in plants, so these plant derived chemicals that can influence our body in almost pharmacological ways, many of those are produced by the plant as their own natural defenses in certain situations. Defenses against pests, for example, defenses against ultraviolet radiation, for example.
If those plants are not sprayed with pesticides, they will naturally synthesize more of those things in them. So you tend to find that there is a far higher phytochemical density, protective phytochemical density in organic produce. So that can be a benefit. Yes, it does have a price tag that comes with it. It's absolutely not necessary, because if you build your diet around those whole foods in the first place, you're not going to have.
you know, you're going to have incredible health benefits. But if you wanted to take it that step further, you could get those additional benefits by consuming organic.
Tyson (59:43.318)
Yeah, yeah, awesome. Dale, I could talk to you all day, I really enjoy it. It's a real fascination of mine. I really appreciate the clarity that you bring to the subject. So, I would love to have you on here again in the future if you're open to it. Really appreciate your work, man. Thanks so much for the conversation. Thanks for stopping by. I'll make sure I link your website and anything else that you might like to share with everyone else in the show notes below.
Dale Pinnock (59:52.494)
Thank you. Any time.
Dale Pinnock (01:00:07.055)
Amazing. Thanks for having me.
Tyson (01:00:08.278)
All right, no worries. I'll see you later. See you later, everybody.
Dale Pinnock (01:00:10.734)
See you later.
Tyson (01:00:14.496)
Awesome man.