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Manhood often feels like navigating through uncharted territory, but you don't have to walk alone. Join us as we guide a conversation about how to live intentionally so that we can join God in reclaiming the masculine restorative presence he designed us to live out. Laugh, cry, and wonder with us as we explore the ins and outs of manhood together.
Becoming a Father After Losing A Father with Nic Howe
00:00
Men, welcome back to the podcast with Restoration Project. This is Chris Bruno and I am here with my friend Jesse French. Hey, Jesse. Hey, Chris. Glad you're here. I'm glad I'm here. Yeah. And I'm glad we're both here because we have our good friend Nick Howe joining us today. Nick, welcome to the show. Thank you. Thank you. It's good to be here. Good to see both of you guys.
00:23
Yeah. Nick, tell us a little bit about you, where you live, what you do, just some of the basic demographics and we'll dive into our conversation. Yeah, I would say I currently reside in Minnesota. We moved here about three years ago. I would push back against Minnesota as ownership. Grew up in Colorado and my heart loves there. But yeah, live in Minneapolis, Minnesota for the last three and a half years.
00:50
I'm a professional mental health therapist. I've been doing that for about seven years with my counseling practice. I started about three and a half years ago now called True Mythos Counseling. Okay, great. So are we three Colorado natives in the same conversation? We moved to Colorado when I was five. So does that count? That's a good question. I don't know. We'll have to go back into the arcana. More of a native than those California transplants. Can we get on that board? That's true.
01:19
Yeah, of course. So I don't know if you don't. Well, we'll have like Colorado native people are like, if you don't have a Colorado birth certificate, then you're not a count. I don't. OK. I mean, I can speak to things like McNichols Arena. Oh, yeah. And Cinderella City. Oh, Cinderella. He's digging deep. Yeah, this this is this is he's got some cred for sure. Yeah, you do. You do have some street cred. But fair if it's not true, native. OK.
01:47
Okay. Someday for a podcast episode, we can have a deep dive into like state allegiance and state personas because you were really clear to like not claim your Minnesota loyalty. And so like that and all that, someday we're going to take a deep dive in that because that'd be real fun. Yeah. What's the like, I can remember old conservative sermons of like in the world, but not of the world like in Minnesota, but not of Minnesota. Yes. Yeah.
02:16
Okay, well on that note, yeah. So Nick, you moved to Minnesota. What was it? Three years ago? 2020. Just getting it going on. Three years ago. Great time to move. Great time to start a practice. But then a couple of the things have been happening in the last like five years and in the last year.
02:39
Yeah. Just bring us in to what's been going on in Nick Howe's life, especially with regard to your important relationships. Yeah, I'd say the move I would put is probably maybe number three or four as far as most significant things that have happened probably in the last 10, I mean, 10 years ago, I got married number one and number two in the last three or three to five years would be a year ago had my beautiful daughter Scout Aniston and my whole world has changed since then.
03:09
And then five years ago, I was 35, my dad was 60, would have been 61, tragically lost his life in a motorcycle crash five years ago. Wow, so you've been walking through like the loss of your father and then becoming a father. And I imagine the two, kind of like a Venn diagram, there's some overlap of like what that experience has been like in the joy and the loss. Yeah, yeah. I remember.
03:39
There's so many dads talking about, there's no way to really describe what having your first kid and like the moment that you meet your first kid is like. And it was similar when people were like, oh, like when you get married, like, or when you just know, you just know. And some people have that experience with marriage, but so many fathers like, it's like this or it's like this, but it's like, you'll just know. Like it's hard to tell you until you're on the other side of that. And it's so true. It's so true. Like that experience is story of.
04:08
getting pregnant and scout getting into the world and getting into the hospital. And it parallels the feeling of a not fun and hard feeling, which is I'd say the secret club of someone who's lost someone really close, maybe specifically lost a parent. And that's something I don't know if I got or understood. So parallel, I'd say is both very different experiences, but definitely experiences that's like I didn't know what that was like until I was on the other side of it. Although I might have said like, oh, sure. That must be great on the...
04:37
kids side are really hard. And then, yeah, meeting Scout and over the last year, so many moments of both joy and heartache because it just brings a lot of that like, dad's not here. Like she doesn't get to meet her grandpa. Bittersweet.
05:08
and so much of like the joy of what you get to experience as a father and then not being able to share it with your father. Mm-hmm. It's, if you ever had a moment, I'm thinking of almost of a little kid moment where you're really excited about something and so maybe you rush and turn to your mom or your dad. Hey, look, look, look, look, and they're not there. I'd say that's what the whiplash feels like. There's this both and of like.
05:36
Oh, Scout just did something. Oh, she's speaking a word now. Oh, she's walking. Hey, oh, oh, like I can't. Like I can't tell you, I can't tell you. Nick, how, thank you for sharing that. Like how have you learned to like engage that, that whiplash feeling that feels, I'm sure there's so much there. How yeah, how have you learned to navigate that? I think.
06:03
I guess I'd first say this, I wouldn't wish the version of my story on anyone. I don't wish suffering for anyone. And the one piece I'm grateful for is I feel like my grief leads me to deeper connection with my dad, although he's not here. It's like going to grief is how I can connect. So I think that's one of the ways I deal with it, which sometimes there are the like, this sucks, or God, God, why? Like, and I think even five years later, some of those more like...
06:32
God, why did you let this happen? I've started to surface and I think I'm still letting myself be angry and go back to those questions that I have versus throwing like the churchy Jesus answer of, he's in a better place since God's plan and all that. So very much in the forge on maybe the anger side of my grief, but there is, there's a tenderness and there's almost a melting of like, that sorrow builds to sweet because it reminds me.
06:59
of so much of the goodness of who my dad was. And so it's this weird both ache and it's it's a closeness not a it's not just the black hole that I think it was early on in losing my dad but it's this being sad about him is how I'm close to him. The grief is actually the avenue to still remaining close. Yeah, yeah. That feels really wise and
07:29
It's really counterintuitive. I would imagine for, at least for me, it's thinking of grief feels like this total foreign, strange, painful process. And yet you're not saying that it's easy, but you are saying, no, there's goodness that that enables in some paradoxical way. Yeah. Again, it's this weird thing of I wouldn't wish it on anybody. It's like everyone needs to go out and have something horrible happen to them.
07:58
evil could be like, yeah, like everyone needs to suffer like I've suffered that I think that's like every cliche villain in any story is my pain must be understood. So everyone's got to suffer, right? So I'm going to wreak havoc. That's what the superheroes are trying to fight is the villain who says you will understand my pain. I'm going to force it on you. I think the inverse is like, yeah, it's tough to say other than I am close to my father. And I think I'm close to God in some moments where I let myself ache that my dad's not here.
08:28
You mentioned a moment ago the anger that doesn't get placated by churchy answers. Walk us into what your journey with that grief slash anger, the grief anger has been for you. Yeah, I think I ran into it where sharing the loss of my dad with someone I know in the last year and they responded with a lot of anger. And I would say someone who's a little older and a little further down the trail than me.
08:57
and they responded with like, that sucks that you lost your dad. And that's just like so unfair and unjust. And I realized I hadn't really touched that side of it. I think I had touched like wanting to grieve well, sure there could be some performance aspect of again, I'm a therapist, so like I wanna grieve well and wanna learn it. And to be honest, like, okay, I think a lot of thoughts going on. If we all maybe have certain emotions that are easier for us to go to than others like.
09:23
both with my dad, I learned grief is a place where it's easier for me to go. Anger, not so much. So I think what started that process was someone else's reaction of anger and the injustice of it that started. I kind of wanted to push it away. Like, no, no, no. I'm not angry at God about this. And I think I'm still in that, maybe I am. Because to almost sound completely different from what I said before, there's times it's like, yeah, God, it would
09:52
people
10:21
So others, like the anger that other people have had on your behalf has felt like an invitation to, to begin explore, exploring some of that anger in your own, Absolutely. Absolutely. You guys are both counselors, so I can, I'm just going to pick your brains, but like, and I've experienced that of with you, with you guys of your willingness to say, Hey, I, as I hear you talk about something, I feel this on your behalf that has been
10:51
really helpful. But I just maybe just for a second, I'd love to just pick your brain of like, why is that such an important thing? Or why does that have the potential when others are able to say, you know, not placate with with answers and platitudes, but to actually say no, as you're as you're saying this, I'm sharing what I feel around that. Why is that a big deal? Why is that needed? I know what I'd want to say. And then I'm also really curious what Chris Bruno therapist has
11:20
I think what I know about childhood development and kid development is so many things. And now I've got Scout right in front of me. So I'm like watching it happen live. So it's moving out of theory and into like, oh, this is so cool. Like the other day she literally made a face and I'm like, that is my goofy face. And it's like, okay, she learned to make that face because she's seen her dad make that face.
11:43
that happens a billion ways. If you have kids, you see like your kids start emulating you in all kinds of both really adorable ways and sometimes scary ways. Like, I mean, just, yeah, scout is one. So I'm just like, Oh, this is just beginning. Beautiful and scary. What I know from like the psychological psychological development side is kids learn what's going on with them by their caregivers helping define and name what's going on.
12:10
So if a kid's sad or angry or mad or happy, or if they're learning what's an apple and what's red and what's a fire truck, it's the adults that start defining the world from them from a really, really, really, really early age. So especially emotionally, like when an adult sees that a kid is frustrated, a kid doesn't have a name or a word for what's going on inside of them. And so if there's a good tuned in caregiver that goes, hey, you look angry.
12:36
Are you angry or you're angry or you're frustrated? Or you're sad because the doll had to get taken away. And that all of a sudden is framing that kid's experience. So regardless of whether that happened for us or not growing up or if that happened well or especially emotionally, I'll make it about me. My story like anger was not welcome or honored or named classic, I'd say, conservative Christian home. Anger is not godly or spiritual or good.
13:04
My own story, mom's allowed to be angry, very angry, but we're not gonna talk about it and that's bad. So two things from my story is, anger equals really, really rage-filled, unhealthy anger from mom. None from, at the time, my dad, very passive at that season of his life. And then the church experience of, if you're a good Christian, you shouldn't be angry. So I'd say for me, when I have somebody come in and say, hey, you're angry about that, or like, man, I'm angry.
13:34
when I hear that, I think it's that same parallel that a kid is actually able to go, Oh, you're actually, your experience is helping me actually get in touch with what my experience actually is maybe versus what I've tried to dismiss or deny or unhealthily reframe. That felt like a lot Chris like,
14:00
I think the only thing that I would add, and you touched on this, is that when we're talking about you and I get angry on behalf of what's happening for you, there is a permission that is offered. Right? There is a permission, and whether it's anger or permission to grieve or permission to delight and play, that emotions are meant to be a communal experience. And as we have emotions...
14:29
inside of me, and for you to have them inside of you, when we can have them together, now we're actually connecting. This is the place of the interrelationship. This is the place of us being the interplay of two people being together in a unique and godly way. And God Himself defines Himself as emotion. He says, God is love, and there's moments where God is angry, and there's moments where God mourns, there's moments like...
14:55
all and celebrates and laughs. There's all kinds of emotions that God has. And I feel like the invitation from one person to another is an invitation to be in a spiritually connected, godly space. And grief particularly is one, you know, a lot of the negative emotions, they don't feel good. But I think Nick, what you've invited us to is that grief actually takes us deeper into some spaces of relationship.
15:25
even with someone who may have passed away that maintains that person maintains the reality of their presence in our lives for for a long time. Yeah, I love what you said there. It just feels like, like, it's not just what I was saying about like the naming and the defining, but like, I would say the joining, like, here's here's might be where you're at. So like, being named, I feel angry when I hear about your story lets me find that in me.
15:52
But then I'm joined in it. I'm not alone in it. And that feels like such a, like a God piece, right? Like Emmanuel, like I'm with, like this, I see where you are and I'm gonna, I wanna be where you are. Yeah. Nick, how has it been for you to become a father? Still becoming. I think I'm a year in and there's still moments I'm like, I'll tell my wife, Brooke, like, we're parents. Like, I'm a dad, like.
16:18
Like that, that's my daughter. That's my child right there. Like walking around, like there's still like the disbelief shocks. I like this is real life. Like there she is at times. What's it like to be a dad? Huge honor, huge moments of tenderness, huge moments of discovering like the ideal that I'd love to be. And also it's like I'm freaking tired. And I'd say being a therapist does not help me in those moments and like could grab some shame or criticism of like.
16:48
you should be more loving or patient or kind or whatever and moments of delight and silliness where I love making silly faces with Scout and I'm like, yeah, I'm silly. I hope you really grab my silly side because it's really fun to go there with you. What's it like to be a dad? My iPhone now recommends Elmo songs as like recommended listening because Elmo is life the last like month.
17:18
Oh, yeah. Those were good times back in the day when, you know, your playlist was full of, you know, and your your Netflix was full of kids shows. I'm going to I do not deny that I am glad that those days are over. Elmo, good as he was as a shelf life, has has a very short shelf life in my mind. So that's that's brilliant. Nick, if you were to if you were to wonder what knowing who your dad was.
17:48
What are some of the words that you would long to hear from him with regard to your fathering?
17:55
Yeah, I think really immediately what comes to mind and in some ways without going all the way into the story is I had the fortune of the last three to five years of my relationship with my dad to be some of our best and there was a lot of redemption at work and I really saw a man who met love incarnate for the first time even though he grew up very religious and began just opening up and seeing sides of him. So I have a huge provision honor.
18:24
even some of our final interactions, knowing that my father loved me and was proud of me. And so as soon as you ask that, it's like, I can immediately just feel that like, Mark Howe loves me and he is so proud of who I am as a dad. Hmm. What a gift to give you. And having that gift makes the absence of it probably even
18:53
more challenging. Yeah. That is back to that whole bittersweet tension, I think. We're trying to find words to put on, but yeah. Wow. Well, Nick, thank you for being a part of the podcast today and for being a guest. Thank you for having me. And thank you for sharing your journey, both of what your loss and your glory with Little Scout. And I imagine for those that have been listening, there's...
19:20
Even as I asked that question of, Unik, of what would you long to hear from your dad? That's not a question I think is just for you, Unik. I think that's a question for all of us of what would we long to hear about our fathering. For those of us that are dads, you know, whether it's hearing about our fathering or hearing about how we are as a man, hearing about how we are in the world, from our dads, that longing for his words, the gifted words of, you know, blessing over us is something that we all long for. And so, yeah, thanks for being here.
19:49
Thanks for your rawness and vulnerability. Yeah, thank you, Chris. Thank you, Jesse. Thanks, man. Good to be with you.