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Introducing ReFolkUs, a new podcast by Folk Music Ontario, where we talk to artists and music industry professionals about building sustainable careers as creative workers, with a focus on folk.
[00:00:00] Rosalyn: In this episode, we will be talking to Erin Benjamin, the winner of the 2023 Estelle Klein Lifetime Achievement Award. The Estelle Klein Award honors the work of an individual that has made significant contributions to Ontario's folk music community. The award is named after Estelle Klein, a longtime advocate of Canadian folk music and one of the early founders of the folk festival scene in this country.
An award winning community builder in her own right and driving force in music industry leadership, Erin Benjamin has worked in the music industry for over 25 years, originally a touring and recording artist and then as executive director of both Folk Music Ontario and the Canadian Arts Presenting Association.
Today, Erin continues her work as the first and only president and CEO of the Canadian Live Music Association since its founding in 2014. An unflagging champion for the live music sector, particularly during COVID 19, she serves as a board member for the Ottawa Board of Trade, the United Way Eastern Ontario, and the Ottawa Film Office.
Over the years, she has served a wide variety of organizations as a board member, including the Unison Fund, Vocal Alliance International, the Songwriters Association of Canada, the National Arts Center's Creation Fund, RBC, Ottawa Blues Fest, and others. She is the proud recipient of several awards, including the Jackie Washington Award, Ontario 150 Award, the United Ways Community Ambassador Award, Tourism Industry Association of Ontario's Resiliency Award, and the Spirit of Folk Award from Folk Alliance International.
And now I'm so happy to say that she is the 2023 Estelle Klein Lifetime Achievement Award in recognition of her service to this community. Erin lives in a vibrant downtown neighborhood with her amazing kids and perfect pandemic puppy and can often be found on the golf course in the pursuit of happiness.
Here's my interview with Erin Benjamin.
Hello, Erin. How are you doing?
[00:02:24] Erin: Hi Rosalyn, I'm great. I'm great. It's really nice to talk to you.
[00:02:28] Rosalyn: Oh, so nice to talk to you as well. Um, first and foremost, congratulations. Thank you so much for joining us for this interview and congratulations on this big achievement.
[00:02:39] Erin: As, as I was the day when you called me, I remain incredibly honored. I mean, obviously, I was there in the beginning. That working with Estelle on the very first award and never, I'd never crossed my mind that this would be something that would transpire. I mean, it's been a million lifetimes, and then some since 2001 when we honored her with the original work. So, I mean, I'm, I'm chuffed. I'm, I'm moved as Rosalind knows. I burst into tears when she called me because it's a very full circle thing. Um, but thank you, deeply.
[00:03:11] Rosalyn: Well, it's, Wonderful, the connection that you have to this award and that it has such a special meaning for you. and maybe we can get a bit more into that, time in your life in a bit. But, uh, let's go back. Not that far back. You're probably the youngest person to ever win a lifetime achievement award.
But, uh, I'd like to know a little bit more about you growing up and, and what place, you know, music had in your upbringing. And maybe you can take us up to the moment where you realized it was something you might be interested in doing as a career.
[00:03:42] Erin: Oh, what a nice question. I never get to talk about myself, my former life as an artist really anymore. In fact, I would wager that most people have no idea that I was a musician, a singer songwriter and a touring artist and a recording artist for a very long time. In fact, ten years on the road professionally, so thank you.
So the story goes that I, I had a dream when I was five years old that I was a guitar player and I woke up and I, uh, I asked my mom if I could have a guitar and And the answer was no, because I, I guess I would wake up regularly and ask for things. So she wasn't, uh, she wasn't going to say yes immediately, but I was, you know, sometimes in your life, you're just sure, you know, you know, and you're positive.
It's happened only a few times that I've really, you know, had a very strong, powerful feeling. And this was one of those times, like, remember it like it was yesterday. And, uh, so she finally relented and she took me to the store. On Baby Avenue in Toronto called Drum World, where we went guitar shopping.
And she bought me. It was hanging on the wall and I pointed to, it was a hundred dollars. It was, the brand was Dega, uh, Dega guitar. And the guy took it off the wall and I remember it was covered with dust and the strings were old. And I'm like, it's perfect. I'll take it. And that was my guitar. for probably 15, 20 years.
I mean, I took that thing everywhere. My sister sanded it down at one point and painted cool flowers, and we re varnished it before we went backpacking in Europe, where I, where I busked across Europe and all those things. Anyway, that guitar was the guitar that I originally learned on. I took guitar lessons from a neighbor who was like a mom, who played a little bit of, I don't know, Gordon Lightfoot and Bob Dylan and Joni Mitchell and Neil Young on guitar.
And so I learned from her and the first song I ever learned was Four Strong Winds. And,
[00:05:28] Rosalyn: Amazing.
[00:05:29] Erin: followed closely by Feeling Groovy by Simon Garfunkel.
And I was just, um, I was just that kid who, who, I was just really determined to. learn and learn I did. I, I, I did lots of lessons and I started performing. I was already the kid who was, this will shock no one who knows me well, but I was always in the school play.
myth goes that I locked myself in the cubby in kindergarten until I got the lead in the play. I mean, shocking. You know me, that's so, you know, not, not Aaron, uh, but so performing and, and playing guitar, um, was just, it was absolutely just a part of me. I didn't know it yet. And as I started to learn guitar, I became, um, really, you know, I loved it and I started writing songs too, like little songs.
And then I went to, um, summer camp. I went to Pinecrest in Muskoka, if anybody knows it, for many years. Many, many years. And, uh, I was a camper and a counselor. And I started a drama program there at one point. And, um, but it was really there that I was so... inspired by the other people who played guitar and sang songs and some of them were really amazing and, uh, were, ended up being musicians themselves.
Um, that's when I really became very interested in writing songs from about the age of 10. and, uh, continued to do that for a very long time and, and made my first cassette with a few songs and that was my first experience recording.
And I went on to record, uh, several CDs and so on and, and perform, but it was from the age of five when I was determined to be a musician.
[00:07:02] Rosalyn: And, uh, you mentioned the first songs that you learned and the influences of your music teacher, was that kind of your first introduction into folk music?
[00:07:13] Erin: So, you know, my aunt was, uh, a sales rep for CBS Records, weirdly. I mean, this was, this is going back because she hasn't done this for a very long time. And she was like the cool aunt. She always got the swag. I had a giant kiss smear, like the band kiss. Like the size of a wall in my room growing up like this huge with each of the painted Rockstars in each corner of this mirror and and she would bring these albums to my parents who had in fact I have their receiver and speaker downstairs a turntable died a long time ago, but that like this night early vintage 1980s Pioneer receiver and she would bring them all these records And so we'd have this weird, a bit random record collection, but in, in that collection was a lot of, definitely like the folk heroes of the seventies for sure.
So, you know, in, in, in between the Nana Muscurys and the Rita McNeil's and like really kind of, which were both, you know, obviously great artists, um, Barbara Streisand was in there, like, but, but I gravitated to the, to the Neil Young for sure. I mean, Neil remains my number one, favorite artist and influence.
But, um, but all of that, all of that, Bob, Dylan and Joanie for sure. And, Ian and Sylvia and, oh my gosh, I sound so old. But this, this was the music that I listened to and while my friends were, uh, really into eight, the actual contemporary music of the eighties and very very little of which I could probably name 'cause I wasn't listening.
[00:08:40] Rosalyn: So then, when you started your performing career, can you describe a little bit about what that was, like at the time? Were you doing a lot of touring? You said you recorded, what, three albums, you say?
[00:08:55] Erin: Yeah, two CDs and then a bunch of other stuff, um, ended up sort of recorded, um, and actually, sadly, some stuff never got recorded and those songs are lost forever. but, uh, I think it was really university so I went to Concordia University. I studied to have a degree in, in the Bachelor of Fine Arts.
Crazy. And, uh, it was with my dear friend, uh, remains to this day, uh, one of my best friends, Heather, um, across from university, we ended up being roommates together and we would sing indigo girls like all the time. So I had this guitar and we would like, you can, you can picture it, right?
[00:09:30] Erin: Friday and Saturday nights were always at our place, and everyone would be jamming and singing until 5 o'clock in the morning, that kind of thing.
And when I finished university, I did a little performing in university, coffee houses, open stages, that kind of thing. I did play in high school bands and stuff. but that was, I wouldn't consider that professional, but that was, you know, really fun. And I, I performed all the way through, up until university.
But when I graduated university, I actually moved to Sudbury. And anyone as old as me or, um, possibly a little bit older will remember that the OCFF's first office when I walked into that scene was, was Sudbury, where I was living at the time. But I, had a bartending job at a Casey's. Four Corners in Sudbury and I was offered to play every Sunday night. This was my first paid gig and they were paying me 250 bucks for like two long sets and I had a fire tap and I get to eat whatever I wanted. I was like, oh my God, this being a musician is amazing.
It's always gonna be just, I'm always gonna be this well compensated like $250 in 1994, uh, was a lot of money.
[00:10:33] Rosalyn: sweet gig
[00:10:34] Erin: yeah, yeah, no kidding. Anyway, and that's, and so I would play a combination of my own songs and cover tunes, you know, more and more people heard me play, and I eventually got different type of work, and I ended up doing things like singing theme songs for the Scott Tournament of Hearts, which was a real highlight, and then, someone gave me a, a form for this contest I'd never ever heard of called Songs from Hearts.
[00:10:56] Rosalyn: was that your first introduction to, the OCFF and, and that, world?
[00:11:01] Erin: So I'd never heard of the OCFF, although it had certainly been around. And, I didn't know going to a conference where other musicians and music people gathered was a thing. No, I, no concept. And at this point I really was sort of very, you know, locally based and, and doing some cool stuff, but not, not touring at all.
and so when I filled out the songs from the heart for him and I, I entered a couple of songs and, uh. I was like, well, like, I guess, um, you know, I don't think I was not planning on going if I wasn't a winner or any of us is like, well, I'll just send it off. And of course the wonderful Richard Nectal called me whenever and said, we have, I think it was three winners that year.
They're all, we're all sort of winners and we all got to come and play at the Sundial in Orillia. And I, I remember I went by myself, um, drove there, it was the first time I'd done anything like that. And I was not, you know, I wasn't a kid and I'd, I'd. busted in Europe with traveling with my twin sister years before that, but I hadn't really, as a musician, contemplated this kind of thing until I got there, and I was blown away, and there were very few artists there, and it was all artistic directors of festivals, and I'm like, oh my god, this is like This is, is this real?
And I, and I, you know, I very slowly got my head around, it was a quick education on, on networking and the, the power of building relationships in an industry that I was just getting to know. And it was, didn't know it then, but it was, it was a very life changing thing. And I owe it all to the 1996 Songs from the Heart competition.
[00:12:30] Rosalyn: Wow. and I should say that OCFF is the Ontario Council of Folk Festivals, for those who are not aware, the former name of, Folk Music Ontario, can you describe the evolution of that relationship because you are, Who are the very first executive director of OCFF.
So how did that come about?
[00:12:50] Erin: Okay, so I love this story, and I know I remember it right, so if there's anyone at the, anyone who hears this thinks that I'm remembering it wrong, I, I'll challenge you, because I've told this story so many times, I'm sure. So, I'm so enamored with the, uh, let's say, I'll try and call it FMO, So enamored with FMO and the relationships and I start playing festivals and as a result of that, that showcase and, and people that I met there and, meeting other artists and all the, all these great things are happening.
And I also get more engaged in the conversation around the conference and the organization itself. And because I'm a perennial pain in the ass. And I. It was, I'm sure I was saying things like, how come you never come to Sudbury with this conference? Or, no, nothing happens in Northern Ontario and, you know, how can we, you know, how can we connect the dots and facilitate access and sort of really, um, engage as part of the province?
and so in, I'm sure it was, would have been Warren Robinson, former artistic director of the Goddard Celtic Roots Festival, or someone who said, Oh God, just put her on the board for crying out loud. And so I joined the board, and have been on the board, so this is like, I think I joined the board in maybe in 99 ish, 98, don't remember, but in the year 2000, FMO had been very lucky to have been, uh, helped out by, a woman named Judy Wilson, who was helping to manage the brochure, put out this, like, summer brochure with all the, the calendar of festivals, it got racked, and tourists Uh, Visitor Information Booths, it was paper if you can remember, that medium and um, Judy got quite sick and, and very sadly ended up passing away but the, but that created um, a situation for the organization and that the one person that they'd been paying to, to manage the, the things the organization did was no longer able to and so during a board meeting in the Toronto Blues Society office in the basement of the Candy Factory Lofts on Queen Street West, Warren Robinson was the chair of the board and Derek Andrews was the vice chair.
And at this point in my career, I'd need to add this. I've been touring and booking very DIY artists. Um, with some success, I was running my own label called Baby Who Productions and booking my own shows and basically distributing my music around the world. Folk DJs all over the place. I was really, I had a website in 1994 that I coded myself like I was.
Really one of those artists whose like, I'm just figuring it out and, uh, really enjoying it and loving it and, and clearly quite organized and organizationally adept, let's say that. so Warren and, and Derek took, they clearly had a conversation during this board meeting or prior to it, and they took me out to the hall and they said, look, Aaron, we need someone to run the, the conference, the organization, like we, we've, we need to, we've, we've, we've gotta find some the right person.
And there's $5,000 in the bank account and I'm sure that you could. find more money or grants or whatever, but would you like to be the office manager and, um, and, and maybe you could help us out and without, like, blinking, I said, because I've been like, I was a full time artist. I was like half the time hiding from my landlord on rent day.
I was like, I didn't have any, I was doing all this cool stuff, but I didn't have any money. Like, no, I wasn't really, I mean, sure I had gigs and stuff, but, I was hardly raking it in. And so I heard the, I heard the words 5, 000 and I was like, and I could do that. And so I said, I said, yes, but you have to call me the executive director.
[00:16:13] Rosalyn: Yes.
[00:16:15] Erin: And so, Warren was like, done. And Derek was like, oh, I don't know. If you know Derek and or Warren, you can see how that would go. And anyway, and there's lots more, but for the most part, the rest is history. And at that point, the organization was quite small. It had about a 30, 000 annual budget and not more than 70 members.
And all of whom would have been folk festivals or similar. Definitely not artists. And then the years went on, and I became the first Executive Director of Folk Music Ontario, and uh, that was in 2001, and I remained the first Executive Director of Folk Music Ontario for another 7 or 8 years.
[00:16:54] Rosalyn: and so that was kind of your first, then correct me if I'm wrong, kind of industry Like job on the industry side of things, like who are some of your, champions at that point, who are some of the folks that were, in your cohort
[00:17:08] Erin: Yeah, well great question and so many amazing people and it's true like I had no clue what I was doing I made lots of mistakes Many many many and things that I wish that I could go back and do a little differently now that I know what I know Especially around advocacy But honestly again like I went to theater school I was a singer songwriter now I'm running an association like I figured stuff out by an I think that's why they thought it would be a good fit.
Like I just had good instincts and I was fearless and just didn't know better, right? but I did take a lot of inspiration from some incredibly brilliant people who were in many ways leading the way in the evolution and development. The early evolution development of music industry associations in the country and, my wonderful friend who I barely ever get to see these days, Sam Bardman, who was, if not the first, maybe the second executive director at the formerly known as Manitoba Audio Recording Industry Association, now Manitoba Music, who I met at the conference.
The only other artist, as far as I can remember, to really find their way by themselves to the OCFF conference, In either it was in Barry or, or in Aurelia at the Sundial. Um, and he and I met there in the mid to late nineties. And we were like this, don't tell anybody else, this is a gold mine.
[00:18:24] Rosalyn: But that's, that's incredible because really it's, it's, it's such a huge part of the legacy of the conference and organization is that, that spark. I, I tell the story pretty often that, the way that we think of the conference now, which then, you know, is also mirrored in Folk Alliance as well. I'll attribute it to you and your pals at that time, and your colleagues who, you know, had the gumption to be like, Hey, this is where those folks are gathering. We're gonna figure out a way to perform in front of them.
[00:18:53] Erin: For sure. And I mean, certainly the many, many amazing people who came before that time when more artists were coming were, you know, the festivals needed a reason to gather and, and they had, so many common challenges, barriers and goals, right? And they needed, and they were, they were talking. about things that were unique to festivals and then when they integrated and added songs in the heart and then became more showcases and more performance and really artists, you know, would hear about this and gathering and decide to come for whatever reason.
And then all of these, jams would break out in song circles, which became showcases, and then as the, the Folk Alliance model was becoming, you know, more familiar to those of us in Canada as well. And then with the advent, I mean, I think I went to Vancouver in 2001 to showcase for Folk Alliance Canada, in fact.
But certainly folks like Sam Bardman, and others, um, were there at the, at the sort of this, what might be a TSN turning point when it really became very sort of, not artist driven or focused, but community, much more about the gathering of the community instead of just the one cohort of festivals, there's lots of names I could, I could add in there.
I have to talk about the Blue Skies Festival. I think, if it was Al Rankin or
[name}, they would have both been there, and Magoo, and, uh, many others. I remember running my very first conference in Toronto in, also in 2001, and again, not having a clue what I was doing, and no volunteers.
I didn't know we needed volunteers, and the Blue Skies folks stepped right up. But they were always, I felt Blue Skies and many other obviously groups of festival folks were very much the heart and soul of the conference and made it what it really was, which was a powerful community gathering and and wasn't just about showcase opportunity.
It was about building those relationships. That is a thread and a theme for me throughout my relationship with FMO and other organizations, but I wanted to say one more name. And that is Angus Finnan, who I'm sure anyone hearing this knows, if you don't, um. Please make a point of meeting the man, but, uh, Angus and I actually went to university together.
but he was also a recipient of Songs from the Heart one year, and I think I might have been on jury or judge or somehow still connected And he, whenever he started coming, he was sleeping in his car in the parking lot in the hotel, because he didn't have any money for a hotel.
But he was, he was someone who immediately sort of, I think, also recognized the power of what, and he had been performing with, was it called Ganaraska? His duo or trio with a fellow in Coburg. Oh my gosh, I can picture the cover of the cassette. and immediately, and, and, you know, became a fixture of the, of the conference quickly, um, like some other folks, but I think, um, I think the writing was on the wall from the moment he walked in the door too.
and many of us, Angus, Sam included, were conference goers for many years and continue to do things like everything from play, showcase to design panels and workshops and volunteer and all the things. Many, many years. And then, you know, to go on to produce that conference many times over was a huge challenge, as you well know.
but also a very, very, very satisfying experience when all was said and done to know that you're, you know, really, really facilitating some amazing lifelong connections that ultimately bring more music to more people who love music.
[00:21:58] Rosalyn: during your time, in that role, I encounter it all the time, I tell you this when I see you all the time, that I, I see bits of, of your work and, and your legacy and, and all sorts of stuff, daily, here at FMO, but it was a huge time of growth and now that I can, So, um, I when I, when I look at data and all sorts of things, but, you know, the huge member expansion and we, the name change and the, conference attendance massive and, So, yeah, lots and lots of, really positive things, but I'm wondering, like, were there any, like, setbacks or, or challenges, during that time
[00:22:33] Erin: Yeah, I think maybe what stands out immediately, I think that there were some challenges between some festivals. There were, Again, groups of folks who maybe didn't get along or didn't agree with process or the way things were being done. I remember there were personalities to manage and sort of trying to bring folks together around the same table.
That year in Toronto in that weird four point Sheridan on the Lakeshore where, oh my gosh, oh, who is the band from BC who played this incredible showcase standing half on the bar in the... Like on the bar. It was electric. It was electric. It was actually incredible that we packed the hotel But there was there was friction in the festival community and And time sort of challenges that I inherited in the role, but, um, so some of those things stand out and I didn't really recognize them with, for what they were, which I think was just ultimately lack of communication and not good listening, not good consultation, was a very important lesson I've had to learn a couple of times in my career, and, you know, I mean, things like lack of money and capacity, challenge any association, and also I think, like, I mean, I could go on.
I mean, I think, I think a, a conference like that, ha ha has, you know, inherent challenges in the model. Um, today I feel that way. I, I feel like we sort of are a bit of a dream selling machine and we encourage this frenzied showcasing. I feel this Aengus knows how I've felt over the years, and I felt like we created a bit of a monster but I think that, since I left that, that it's in the organization's good hands. It certainly is today that, you know, obviously we have the artists interest, in the center of it all. And if we're not caring for that very carefully and thoughtfully, then we're doing us all a disservice.
And I thought we maybe went a little too far, but my hunger for growth. Like, grow, grow, grow. I'm no longer, you know, I don't, I wouldn't say I was like a fanatic. Like, I wasn't, recklessly trying to grow the organization. I was trying to build capacity and build a voice and a united voice, build a strong community and create greater opportunities for all of us as a result.
I felt like the organization became slightly too artist facing and I, and I say that respectfully, I mean, I do believe artists have a, have a rightful place inside the, the dynamic and the dichotomy of FMO today and, and, and should, but the, the role that the, and of course today I run an organization and have done So, the next organizations I went on to run were very much about the person who puts the artist on the stage.
Um, less about the ecology, but, I think we could have, we may have been better able to leverage from an advocacy perspective, some of our messaging better, had we been a little more streamlined in, and intentional around, growth. But, that's just me. I had a board, and wonderful boards over the years. Many, many, many amazing volunteers came and went through, uh, the, the board of, of the organization and, um, we, you know, we would discuss those concepts and considerations and made decisions on behalf of the industry that we felt were the right ones.
[00:25:20] Rosalyn: That's interesting. so that's a good maybe point to segue then into the work that you end up doing after you go to Capicoa and then on to Canadian Live Music Association where you currently are president and CEO.
Can you talk a little bit about, some of those shifts and what landed you in the role you are in?
[00:25:42] Erin: It's interesting, when I was still at Folk Music Ontario, and we went through a process, that our friend Sam Bardman, in a consultant role, ran for the board. It was strategic planning, the theme of it was from EB to ED. And, uh, so they needed to really manage the fact that they had an executive director whose personal brand was intertwined with the brand of the organization.
Very strong sort of personality and who, you know, like this is not about me being a great leader or anything, it's just that this is how I lead. And it was obvious that if there was any succession required that the board would wanna maybe get, uh, ahead of that a little bit to make sure that, the organization was leadership first, maybe personality second, or I don't know what the right way to say that, but I hope you know what I mean. And Sam Bartman came in to lead that strategic planning and, um, it was probably the first time that I realized that, not letting go necessarily, but that I might have to do something else, or I could do something else, or I could, I, this wasn't my home forever. It wasn't, that wasn't the catalyst for like, oh, I got to go now, because I don't get to be me here in this job.
Not at all, not at all. And in fact, I was off on mat leave, I think, when that happened, of having my first child, I think that I was evolving as a, as a leader and really recognizing, it might be good for the organization and Erin Benjamin to look for other opportunities.
And right when I was contemplating that, I got tapped by a recruiter to consider the Capcoa job. Which is a very interesting experience, and that was a first for me. I didn't, don't even think I knew what a recruiter was, and the fact that I had possibly caught the attention of other people was shocking to me or whatever.
Like, I mean, I was like very much living in this, this FMO world and happily so. you know, having babies and, and, and having, creating a family and all those things and living in Ottawa, having moved from Sudbury to Ottawa in 2003. So ultimately, now pregnant with my second child, went through the interview process at the request of the recruiter, thought it could be interesting, got the job.
First thing I did, so I said goodbye to FMO, with a heavy heart and very excited about future challenges. Um, but I was, when I started at Capicoa, I was seven or eight months pregnant.
And my board, my amazing board chair at the time, Mr. Tim Yurtsa, who manages the Fredericton Playhouse in Fredericton, New Brunswick, said to me, I disclosed that I was pregnant during the hiring process.
I said, well, I was three months pregnant when, when we were, when I was going through the re process and I said, eventually I knew they were going to offer me the job and I said, okay, look, I'm pregnant and if you want to back out, I'll give you, I'll give you a chance.
Cause I was afraid too. I was like, what am I going to do? Start a new job with a brand new kid and that'd be two kids. And oh my God, that sounds scary. Um, and Tim, who was younger than me said, well, if you go on mat leave, will you come back? And I was like, yeah. He's like, great. So, first thing I had to do at Capicoa was hire my replacement…that was interesting.
And I, I, did, I hired a woman, a wonderful woman in Ottawa named Deb Beauregard. And she said, well, what's the job? And I'm like, I have no idea.
We figured it out. And then, um, went on to hire an incredible team of amazing human beings. One of them being Aaron Barthart, very close to the folk community here. And Melanie Bureau who remained with Capico for many years and Frederic Jullien who's still there.
Um, and I really enjoyed that very much and that was a huge challenge and I would say Capico Was the one of the hardest jobs I ever had partly because when I first or second conference my daughter broke her femur and Um, in an accident and was in a body cast for many months and it was right at a difficult turning point.
A lot of things were trying to evolve a bunch of stuff and so my personal and business sort of got mushed together and I found it very stressful and difficult for a while. And I didn't, I don't know that I felt that supported, um, I don't think there was clear vision, uh, from the community or the board, and I don't, I think that we're all in that together, that one, but I found Capicoa, a good challenge, lots of diverse, um, stakeholders and members in the mix, and, I had, you know, curiously, OCFA, I have to call it that this time.
I was the first executive director working with some, you know, relatively, not a blank slate, but history that was, you know, aching to be built upon. At Capico, I inherited, uh, I took over from the founder who had been there for 22 years with a board that was very much about revision, rebirth. So looking at how things were working and there was a deep desire for change there and needed, the change needed to happen.
And I was the young. fearless, she doesn't know what she doesn't know, good, that's what we need, kind of leader. And nobody, very few people knew me in the performing arts community. Those who did were, had a connection to the folk community and, and had seen me leading FMO and thought that it, you know, could work and, and they weren't wrong.
Um, the performing arts community was a bit of a tougher sell and they were harder to get to know.
I don't think they took the folk community particularly seriously, if I'm honest, and I thought that it lacked credibility in their eyes at that time. And I'm being blunt. Um, and, uh, and so that took, took, it was harder to build those relationships.
Also, again, I went to theater school and I was a singer songwriter. I still didn't know what I was doing. No clue. So I made some mistakes there, but then when Toby, when Toby's leg was, got broken, that was, that was really hard. And I, and it was the first time I really felt like intense professional stress and fear and frustration and that sort of thing, but a good, some good learnings in there.
Near the end of my time with Capico, I, I heard, I got wind of an organization. There was whispers of this new association being built, BORN, which irritated me to no end. And the association was going to represent live music presenters. The word presenter was the only one I used at the time.
But I, also promoters and venues, performing arts centers, and places where artists would perform live music. And I was like, wait a minute. Capicoa already does that. So I went and found those people. One of them was one of my board members at Capicoa, Jesse Kumagai, who I will shamelessly name. And he said, look, Capicoa just doesn't represent the commercial side of the industry, and there's room for both sides, for profit, not for profit in this association that we're conceiving of.
There is no voice Capicoa. And he wasn't wrong, but I kept saying, it could be, why don't we work together, the country doesn't, there's no room for another association. And he said, you know what, Benjamin, apply for the job. Get over yourself and apply for the job. And I did, and uh, November 7th, 2014, I became the first ever Executive Director of Music Canada Live, as it was known.
And I had again, an association to build from nothing. There was zero things, zero computers, zero email addresses, zero mailing address, zero nothing. We had a founding board of directors, and we had great, and actually I should, I should be very clear, there wasn't zero. We had great help from Music Canada, the major label association, who were very, um, supportive and acted as a springboard with some, Administrative infrastructure to allow us to get sort of to start to build, um, and that was fundamental to our success today. Absolutely. And they deserve great acknowledgement for all of the heavy lifting they did on our behalf and continue to do as a great partner to us. But, uh, yeah, and then, uh, and a few years into the life of Music Canada Live, we rebranded to become the Canadian Live Music Association, because deep down, that's who we really are.
And with that came a title change to represent not only my leadership of the organization, but my vision for the sector.
[00:33:08] Rosalyn: So I'm detecting, a repeated pattern here, where, you're maybe seen as this kind of catalyst for some, some growth and, or rebirth in these, organizations and you're, I would say kind of recently in the last 10 years, we've seen you do it again with, Canadian Live Music Association and, and growing it. in really meaningful and impactful and, Beautiful ways over the last 10 years, the pandemic in particular is a time when, your, role, but CLMA's role, became so central to, um, the live music industry, and, and particularly, you know, to, Folk Music Ontario members and our, our, our folk music community, you know, all of our festival members, You stepped up into such a, a strong leadership role, and I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit about, about that time and, and I know that it was probably a, a hard and busy time for
[00:34:12] Erin: Yeah, I mean, to be honest, I'm still living it a bit and not in the same sort of, like, barely sleep, barely eat, work for 12, 15 hours, like, barely breathe, text your kids from your bedroom to bring you food and water kind of way. But it was like that for a long time. Um, it's weird. Like, we all love the cliche, like, uh, never waste a good crisis.
Not a cliche. It's a great saying, Churchill. Um, I think it was Churchill. Hope I have that right. but, uh, you know, my job pre COVID had been to basically convince people about the value of a united voice, enabling a community to entrench the economic, social, and cultural value of what it does. And without that voice, not only do people not know, they don't, they don't care, they don't understand.
And so it was a lot of building those relationships one at a time out there, and COVID just accelerated the mess, the point I'd been trying to make basically my entire career is that we're stronger together. My superpower is bringing people together and that's it. Like my superpower is just getting people to sit around the same table and, trying to facilitate a conversation that moves us forward together.
And that doesn't have to mean it's always easy or that we get where we expect it to go. But. that we sit down in the first place. And that is what the CLMA was positioned to do because that's what it had been doing for the first five years of its life. slowly, one person. At a time, like one member, I remember I'd get membership dues come in the mail or, you know, whatever sent by e transfer would be like, Oh, yeah, every, every 250 was such a win because it meant that they trusted me and they trusted the, the, the organization to be able to sort of, Do what we say and ultimately, you know, impact their bottom line and I don't just mean their financial bottom line.
So COVID really created that, but it obviously, and I, and I mean this most sincerely, like, I would never wish that on anyone and I never want to go through that again. And it was, um, I don't know if you remember this, but it was real for me that there were several penny drops. Um, in March 2020, and one of them was having our letter published, I don't know if it's the front page of the Globe and Mail or in the Globe and Mail, I like to think, I like to remember it being on the front page. I could be wrong.
[00:36:27] Rosalyn: I'm pretty sure that's where it was. Yeah.
[00:36:29] Erin: Talking about it very clearly. And I look back on that. I'm like, wow, we were, we weren't right on everything, but we were darn close on what we're articulating. We we were projecting what the impact was going to be very immediately. And we're taking cues from the UK and so on.
But, to be able to come out of the gate that quickly, we also had some tools in place like our great Google group listserv that we sort of tossed our membership situation out of the window and said to anyone, again, this is to me is like core to community building. It's like we just took away any barriers to access to information because As much as we need, and we're actually struggling to rebuild from that, if I'm honest.
Like, people take our work, and you know this as an association leader. Like, advocacy is intrinsic, you're doing it anyway, why should I pay for it? And if we have all the time in the world, I'd love to talk about why associations are we have to work so hard to get people to understand what we're delivering, because sometimes you can't see it, but it's happening, and it's happening on your behalf, and it takes a village, right?
But, anyway, there was nowhere else for people to turn, and that was the whole point of this, the, the reason the association was born in the first place. It just, we didn't expect to ever have such a bright spotlight to make that point, but that's what happened.
And in so many ways, I mean, this is my, it was Miranda Mulholland who I first heard this expression from, but it's so perfect, building the airplane while flying it. I mean, again, again, Erin Benjamin will say she had no idea. idea, which she was doing, no clue what I was doing, especially during COVID, instincts and, having a career of relationships.
and knowing a lot of folks and, and just saying, okay, well, we're going to figure it out. And if we, and if we walk, if we take the wrong turn in the maze and we hit a dead end, we're going to turn around and find another path.
And that's actually a great analogy, for day after day, after day, after day, after day of slogging it out. It was March 12th, I've told this story before, I was on my way to the Junos, I was walking out the door with my suitcase in my hand to go to the airport to get on a plane to Saskatoon. And someone, a friend called me and said, don't come, we are deciding to cancel.
They'd been back and forth and they weren't sure what was going to happen, you might remember.
And I, and I was on the phone and I, I stopped in the doorway, like I just kissed my kids goodbye. Like this is all happening. And I, I turned around and I looked at them and I, I was very emotional as you might imagine because that was about the biggest thing that could have happened.
You canceled the two nights, like, um, and I, I turned to my kids and I said, everything is about to change and, I burst into tears and then I said, we're getting a dog. And then, which we did, which we did, who's probably going to start crying in the background again soon. but in that moment, I, I don't think there was a moment where I was like, holy shit, Benjamin, like this organization needs to be ready.
Everything that moment didn't happen, but it was like, okay, what does my gut tell me I need to do?
[00:39:19] Rosalyn: So now, you know, you said that you feel like you're still in it right now, a little bit. Where do you feel like you are right now? Where do you, where do you kind of see the next, what do you see the next five years looking like for you?
[00:39:32] Erin: Yeah, for me, I feel like I'm still in it a bit because I feel like we've sort of, as much as work life balance is a thing and we talk about it and I, I do work from home more than not and I do take four hour long walks on golf courses as often as possible because that's my, my passion next to my children and my dog.
I feel like we're, there's still some pace, we're still so off the charts in terms of pace and workload and volume and intensity that we. Maybe I'm remembering it wrong, but it doesn't didn't feel like this before there was something there's something
that's never gone away in terms of intensity And so I I wish everything could just slow down a bit like not me I'm not it's not I'm afraid of the volume of work or whatever and I do I have a much healthier attitude with work volume I mean, I have 10, 000 unread emails in my inbox sorry to all of you waiting for me to get back to you or that you're in there, but But I'm, I'm, I can, I can breathe a bit more, in this current context because I do have a deeper understanding of priorities and that, you know, currently with the crisis, really like the intense crisis, people looking at losing businesses and homes, in the background now, I have perspective, like I really do.
And in many ways, the intensity that's happening in live music is wonderful today. I mean, wonderful. The activity, the inventory, the volume, the number of tickets. Just the, you know, you and I live in the same part of the province, close by, and the number of shows in Ottawa right now, I've never seen anything like it.
I've got Peter Gabriel, Iggy Pop, and The Chicks within three days of each other, and those are just three of a hundred shows I could be going to. I mean, it's remarkable. And this isn't just resilience that brought us here. This is the incredible thing that we bring to people. Um, and now we're, you know, and obviously people have really decided, they're voting with their feet in their wallets, that they've decided they know what this means to them because they didn't have it and now they know and they're not giving it up.
And that's awesome. And this is a gift and we need to manage it carefully. But I also, I don't know, in the next five years, I mean, I really hope we build our relationships with the government much better, we've got to fortify those, and I know there are priorities for the government at every level. Um, I feel like I have good relationships for the most part, but I still feel like live music is unknown and therefore easily disregarded and ignored.
We need to do an economic impact study. Of live music in the country. It's never been done, never been done in the history of Canada. And I mean, some people have come close. There was a study that Music Canada did that wasn't released because of COVID. And there were some great numbers in there that we were able to use, but for the live music industry to do a study of the live music industry.
Never happened, and we're trying to make that go right now, and I do think that that'll be a fundamental game changer we can, when we can actually count ourselves and demonstrate through data and statistics our size, scope, and impact, and that will allow us to leverage policy in ways we've never been able to before, because that's when, you know, politicians and public servants really do understand, um, numbers talk, and, that has to be a priority in the next couple of years.
And I would like to do that, and then I would like to, make room for the next Um, I want to be the first young, vital person who has vision, well beyond anything I can even conceive of myself today and make sure that the next generation of leaders like you, Roz, and others who are coming up have a real opportunity for impact.
And change making, you know, I talk a lot about economic impact, but we have got to be making more environmental impact. There are ways that we can protect and support and promote our creators. Many organizations do this wonderfully now, but there's always more to be done. to make sure that we're, we're, we're taking care of our artists.
I mean, look at the, you know, artscape situation in Toronto. I mean, there's one example. I mean, let's just face it. We have not figured it out. The world has many problems. And we need to continue to tell the story of where we are situated in the context of quality of life. And I hope that, and I know that the leaders of tomorrow and whoever it is that takes my place here, will understand the intersection of the economic part, but also why we're seeing this renaissance resurgence and return to live music, because we need it to be the humans.
It's evolving to become and it is live music and access to beautiful art that helps us to remember what really matters. And that is essential work. And if we have to do it by telling the story through data, if we have to do it by writing letters to ministers, if we have to do it by standing on a soapbox in the middle of a global pandemic and saying, save us, then that's what we're going to do.
Because at the end of the day, if we all went away, the world would be. In even bigger trouble than it is today. That's what I believe.
[00:44:15] Rosalyn: Wow. Amen. You are such an inspiration, Erin. So lucky to, get to call you a mentor of mine and, this year The board has decided to, expand the, the Estelle Klein Award to, include, an honoree for Community Builder of the Year. And this year the honoree is, the wonderful, magnificent Treasa Levasseur. I'm wondering if you know Treasa and, and have anything that you'd like to say to her as the, the first recipient of this Community Builder Award.
[00:44:50] Erin: Well, first congratulations to the organization for doing that. I think it's amazing and there's nobody better than Treasa. I mean... trust is another person that I never get to see anymore and I wish I could be such an inspiring human being with energy like rare, rare energy in that human being.
She is a unique, very special creature, who I think probably changes the lives of absolutely every single person she meets. Yeah, you could not have chosen more wisely and um, it makes all the sense to me and what, how you're gonna, how you're gonna choose someone after Tressa, I don't know, because um, she's sort of, she's the bomb and um, I think that's incredible.
Also she has the best smile on planet Earth. Congratulations Treasa.
[00:45:35] Rosalyn: Before we wrap up, I want to touch on Estelle Klein, the namesake of this award that you're receiving. and I'm just wondering if you can, take us back to, the very first Estelle Klein Award and, share a little bit about, about why it was created, and maybe, maybe something that, that you personally took away from, getting to know Estelle?
[00:45:59] Erin: Oh, yeah, it's it's been You know such a long time till I got your phone call I mean obviously every year I'm on the edge of my seat to see who will be Estelle Klein Award recipients right like everybody else I'm sure because you know, it is wonderful to celebrate and acknowledge contributions to our beloved community here and always was so well selected over the years people truly embodying her Spirit.
so I had to, I worked with Estella and it's like, she is so grumpy all the time. She was like, so who was it who warned me? Maybe it was Warren. Well, I was and she certainly was not, maybe not grumpy. She was very blunt and, and wonderful and sweet, of course. And there was, you know, such a strong feeling that we needed to acknowledge Estelle for her contribution to the model, you know, world renowned model and still to this day, profoundly me.
Useful models to bring us that, you know, I mean, obviously we know why workshops and the way folk festivals Work today are so we know why we love them. We know why they impact us, right? This community doesn't have to think twice about that one But I think Estelle, the Estelle that I knew and I didn't know her as well as some right?
I just certainly can't claim to have ever gone to her house for dinner or anything, but in the development of this Award and we did work together and she was a lot of fun and and punchy and and awesome and and particular And, uh, and I have vague sort of foggy memories of the interview because I would have been in the back of the room and at the sundial shushing everybody, which was my thing.
I used to print signs and put them up and said, shh. I hate when people talk when people are talking or performing. It's just such a pet peeve. And if anyone catches me in the back of a room talking, you can remind me of this. but yeah, it was a wonderful time and an incredibly appropriate and important moment to celebrate.
And I wish that over the years, folks who don't, didn't know her, never had a chance to meet her or hear her. obviously I wish everyone could have because you would really recognize the, the, where the bar is in terms of passion and spirit, um, and again, embodied in many, but it's something to strive for all of us every day to be more like Estelle in, in how determined she was to, to see her vision.
You know, really unfold and obviously, you know, the metropolitics and, and certainly the flow hills and others. Um, and I could, gosh, so many faces are flooding into my head right now. Sort of the, the early generations of folk festival pioneers, um, who learned from each other and especially from Estelle, you know, really gave us an amazing gift that we need to care for and nurture and all those things as, as your contemporaries, Roz, um, just like the next leader of the CLMA, like the folks who are poised to, to lead our folk festivals into their own future, um, you know, will retain hopefully that history and, and just build upon it and, and so much room for, Um, Innovation and new things, but at the heart of it all is this incredible, sort of framework that Estelle built.
And I think it will always be a powerful part of how festivals work. I can't see that ever changing because it's been perfect from day one.
[00:48:53] Rosalyn: Well, that gumption and that leadership certainly emanates and shines out of you, Erin, um, congratulations again and thank you so much for your incredible contributions to this community. Thank you.
[00:49:10] Erin: Let’s sort of modify the word lifetime. I know you probably get the whole lifetime. I don't, I can hear Flo Hill, but lifetime. But, but, uh, you know, I, I hopefully I'm not done, but it is, it's so, I can't tell you, I'm attempt, I will not burst into tears right now if I can help it, but honestly, to just talk about that time and Roz, I appreciate you connecting the dots, like it's a career of, You know, I can't say I'm a quiet person, but it's been a career of kind of quietly working on the industry side, trying to, from my big 30,000 foot view, like, connect dots, and that is that the dot connecting is the infrastructure, it's the personal infrastructure, it's the cultural infrastructure, it's the touring infrastructure, we need each other to build this, community in a really healthy and forward thinking way and it is the associations who do that work and if you're not a member of FMO, you gotta ask yourself why because the work is essential and without them and without organizations like the CLMA and many others, that work doesn't happen.
We live in a very entitled time and I would just, I guess if I, if I could have a call to action, it would be to remember. that if Roz and, and the Roz's of the world aren't doing this work for you, then no one else is. So support your organization and from my children and my pandemic puppy and myself Roz and to everyone on the board of FMO and to all of this year's award recipients and artists and those who've come before.
Thank you deeply. I'm turning off my camera now so that I can cry. Thank you.
Thank you very much.
[00:50:48] Rosalyn: Thank you. Thank you.