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A weekly interview podcast hosted by Melissa Hague features Courageous Coaches who explore the grit and bones of what it takes to be truly courageous. Whether you're a coach, consultant, or a leader, join us each week to explore what it really takes to be transformational in your coaching practice, your business, and your life.
Melissa (00:01.966)
Okay, welcome everyone to the Courageous Coach podcast. Thank you for being here. And today, I'm delighted to welcome Jessie Buscombe to the podcast. And I'm really looking forward to our conversation. Thank you so much for being here, Jessie. And we always start asking you to tell us something, tell us about yourself.
Jessie (00:25.978)
Well, thank you, Melissa, for having me on. Delighted to be here. And as you kind of mentioned at the start, we may have problems keeping this to our allotted time because this work that you've done has had so much of an impact on my career and has been sort of really profound. So I'm really thrilled to be here. in terms of...
who I am. I think I get asked that a lot, right? As a coach, you're often kind of meeting new clients and guess what? I still haven't got this kind of down to a really neat drill. But sort of basic elements of my story are, guess, on a personal level, I'm a born and bred Londoner and I still work mostly within the capital.
So doing quite lot of face-to-face coaching in and around London and I still live in the city. And for a long time in my career, I worked right in the heart of the city in Westminster. And I was a civil servant working in a range of government departments over many, many governments, probably more than I would kind of care to list, but let's say they go kind of as far back as the...
the new Labour years and then they went right up to the Brexit Boris Johnson years. And that's the point at which during some of that government, I decided to leave and set up as a coach and also as a freelance consultant. And so I wear two hats now, which I maybe we can come and kind of talk into the challenges of wearing two hats and also the benefits.
So one of them is around coaching people who are still doing the kind of work I was doing, leading within government, both in central government, but also local government and some of the associated agencies that deliver public services. And then I've also, I guess, kind of gamekeeper turned poacher is one way of describing it. I've gone from kind of making policy to doing some work around trying to influence policy.
Jessie (02:48.88)
And that has been more my consultancy career. And really that's been grounded a lot in education and skills policy, which is an area massively passionate about and where I used to work in terms of in government.
Melissa (03:05.742)
Okay, so I'm instantly fascinated, right? Because it's not an area I'm all familiar with, that kind of civil service government policy making, and I'm immediately intrigued about that world, right? So, okay, I love that game poacher turned gamekeeper idea. And also that, as you mentioned, which I think is true for so many of us who choose to become
Jessie (03:11.119)
We will.
Jessie (03:16.291)
Mm.
Melissa (03:33.304)
coaches or external, let's say external coaches running our own businesses, is that we end up with some sort of portfolio, right? Different, different things, whether that's consultancy and coaching, or for me, it's training, learning, delivery and coaching. So we have this sort of portfolio business, I guess, and that with it, you know, brings, as you said, right, some challenges, but also some real kind of synthesis between the things that we that we do. And so
I was thinking before we came on Jessie, because we were together recently, weren't we, in a group coaching, we call them circle backs for around this kind of courageous coaching and dare to lead work that we've been doing. And we, or I had that realization that we've been working together since spring 2022, which was when you came on the program and I was like, wow, that's, and I always feel like that's such a privilege when you get to work. And I've always felt this in my career, even in learning and development, it's not a,
Jessie (04:20.144)
Yeah, that's right.
Melissa (04:32.046)
come on a programme, you're done. It's kind of come on the programme and then we've built that continuing kind of learning with each other, from each other and really kind of built that relationship. it's so lovely to now be sat here in, well, we're sat here in January 2025 and to still be talking about this and the impact that it's having on you today from doing the learning itself in 2022. That's like a...
a learning and development person's dream, right? So it's really lovely to have you here. And so I'm now sort of thinking about the work that you do. And I always start with a question around, you know, what does courageous coaching look like for you in your work? But because of this portfolio element of your work that you mentioned, I'm kind of more leaning towards the question of what what does courage look like for you in your work? More, perhaps coaching, but more generally as well.
Jessie (05:31.664)
It's a great question and probably the honest answer is I'm not sure I know, but my reflection on this question is that...
Jessie (05:47.556)
that when I left the civil service, the number one thing a lot of people said to me was, you're so courageous. It's so brave. And I think that was because, you know, when you're in government, you're in what's essentially perceived as quite a secure career, you know, with a good pension and good benefits. I mean, in reality, as anyone who's working in government,
knows and who's been through many reorganisations and a number of challenges. I don't think the kind of reality is as always feels as secure as maybe the kind of outside world would have you believe. But still it was kind of leaving a career that I definitely could have stayed in. And so I guess courage is something that often other people see in you.
rather than you necessarily feel it yourself. And I think of what courage actually feels like for me is kind of leaning into discomfort. It's sitting with and kind of exploring discomfort. And I think I've thought, one of the things I'm kind of really interested in is what makes people change career or pivot in their career.
And I think that maybe rather than people feeling that they feel really brave, I often sense when they're talking to me that they feel this discomfort, you know, and that can be as bad as like I'm a frog in boiling water and I've got to jump out. Or it can be, you know, it's just a little bit too hot in here. But yeah, I think that's, so I don't know what it, I don't know what it feels like necessarily to myself.
I think it's sometimes something that you perceive in other people more often. And what you feel in yourself is like discomfort. And I think we're taught to, in society, is to kind of run away from discomfort.
Melissa (07:51.619)
Yeah.
Jessie (08:05.85)
But I think as I've kind of coached more and through the work I've done with you and the kind of thinkings of Renée Brown and a few others, I've thought of, yeah, but what if you sort of sit with that discomfort?
Melissa (08:21.614)
Mm.
Jessie (08:22.416)
So yeah, that's a very kind of long, I feel like that's a long politician's non-answer. There you go. I tried to get the best of them.
Melissa (08:25.271)
It's great.
Melissa (08:32.174)
I love it. Well practiced. absolutely. Speech writer extraordinaire. Yeah. Because I think that's really interesting because I think that's really true. One of the things that I think we're very good at is seeing courage in others. So, you know, we see someone doing something, you know, and it doesn't have to be a huge, great, big transitional thing. It might be something very simple.
Jessie (08:40.272)
Yeah.
Melissa (09:00.334)
but we look at it and we kind of go, wow, that's really brave that they did that. And often there's a kind of a sort of two drivers for me anywhere, right? Kind of, particularly if it's someone I know well, then I feel almost, there's a little bit of pride. like, you know, I feel proud of them for being courageous, but there's also sort of the underlying thing there for me as well, which is a little bit of, that was brave. I'm not sure I'd be able to do that, right? We kind of, and yet,
Jessie (09:00.484)
in.
Melissa (09:29.334)
we're very good at recognising courage in others. But we don't recognise when we're being courageous, particularly the kind of the just the everyday, ordinary courage that you know, we're dealing with, you know, we just we don't recognise that courage in ourselves. And so your point about
becoming aware of the discomfort is super important because the discomfort comes from the vulnerability. I feel really vulnerable. This is uncomfortable. You know, I'm fearful. I maybe feel anxious. Maybe there's some shame, know, whatever the feelings are. And that is actually your first indicator, if you like, or your strongest measure that you're about to do something brave. Right. But you're, but you're right. We kind of go, Ooh, discomfort. Don't like that.
Jessie (10:12.791)
Mm-hmm.
Melissa (10:19.328)
And don't therefore we don't step in or we, as we in our language, we about armoring up or we self protect, you know, all of those things happen. And, and we, we don't realize often that we've missed an opportunity to be courageous in our work and lives. Right. So yeah, that discomfort is almost the early warning, learn to spot it and sit with it. As you said, it's kind of like the early warning indicator. Hmm. That's curious. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. And so
Jessie (10:47.886)
I think that's, I should say, think that's spot on. I, so I often kind of find particularly with women when they're about to speak up or speak out on an issue at work, that yeah, I would perceive as a coach or a peer, as a mentor, as a friend, that courage, but what they're feeling is risk, you know?
What's the rest of my career? What's the rest of my reputation? And I, I mean, I didn't want to go like really feminist really early on, I take a bit of bait, I think, you know, when we see kind of images of, of courage, it's like, you know, often have quite a sort of manly thing of what you do is you get confident and then you have courage, right?
Melissa (11:32.43)
different.
Jessie (11:46.594)
So, you you sort of inhabit, you know, Lion King type aura, and then you kind of war, right? But the reality is I can only speak for the experience of most women. You know, I know it's like what you, you know, the first signs of courage are that discomfort, that sense of risk, you know, the feeling of really out on a limb.
Melissa (11:54.124)
Yeah, okay, Lion King Laura, I love that.
Jessie (12:15.448)
rather than, you you get to this place of security and then you step into your courage, you know. And there's a kind of time and place for it because it's not always, it's always worth doing, but it's not always the nicest experience, you know. So courage looks to me like maybe experiencing something that isn't necessarily comfortable or a nice feeling.
Melissa (12:21.422)
Yeah, yeah, actually.
Jessie (12:43.727)
and then learning to reward myself later rather than think I'm going to enjoy being courageous. And that's been a like, just a sort of really simple shift in my mind that's actually enabled me to be more courageous because if you keep expecting to enjoy it, then maybe you'll never get to that point and maybe you'll never be courageous.
Melissa (12:52.515)
Yeah.
Melissa (13:12.428)
Yeah, it's so true, right, because that leans into, know, what Brene Brown talks about that, that idea of, you know, there is no courage without vulnerability. And, and vulnerability is the emotion we experience in times of risk, uncertainty and emotional exposure, right. So you're absolutely right that it doesn't feel good. and
I always say to people, right, that when we start working together, I'm like, and I'm not here to, it's never gonna feel good, right? I'm not here to make it easy for you. But what we wanna work on is leaning into and sitting with, as you said, that discomfort, that those feelings of vulnerability bring up for us. And I think something else that you made me think of then is that also, I think for many,
groups, mean, you mentioned, you know, women. And so I guess I might say many minority or underrepresented groups. There's also this question around, is it safe for me to step into my courage in this scenario? You know, and, and, sometimes it might not be. And so I think there's that added challenge sometimes that we also have to make a call around what
Jessie (14:16.026)
Mm.
Melissa (14:30.286)
what's what how safe do I feel here to speak up or speak out? You know, what what might the consequences of that be? And sometimes it we do it anyway, you know, maybe we feel it's it's worth it's worth the risk. And sometimes we think it's not right now. And that's the kind of, you know, choosing, choosing courage or choosing comfort. I I might argue that doesn't necessarily feel comfortable. But it's like, do you know what now is not the right time? It's not
the right day or with the right group of people or whatever. So yeah, safety, think is it or feeling safe is a big part of this as well, for sure.
Jessie (15:11.632)
I think that's, yeah, that's, I think that's so astute and it kind of makes me think of their...
the work that Susan David does around toxic positivity. It's like, I sometimes think, I think we may have given in women's kind of leadership programs, maybe a bit of the narrative that women have got to go around being courageous and confident all this time, even in settings where there's a risk for them. And yet I know, the reality is that
certainly the women I talked to are evaluating and sometimes, know, there's, and actually I think this apply to all leaders of all kinds of genders. It's like sometimes there is the time to be courageous, but you actually, because it's challenging, I mean, I don't think you can do it to any more seven. Or maybe that's part of how you might face a bit of burnout really. I mean, like it's okay to choose.
Melissa (16:12.278)
No, no.
Jessie (16:22.754)
sometimes, you know, and not be hard on ourselves because we've gone, you know, I can't fight on every, or I can't speak up everywhere on everything or, you
Melissa (16:28.13)
Okay.
Melissa (16:34.806)
Yeah, absolutely. Because again, coming back to Brené, there's that one of my favourite quotes, right, you can choose courage or you can choose comfort, but you can't have both. And actually, for me, the really important word in that quote is choice. It is absolutely a choice that you can make. And sometimes we choose comfort. And you know, I know for me, sometimes I'll
Jessie (16:46.362)
Mm. Mm.
Jessie (17:00.208)
Mm-hmm.
Melissa (17:02.754)
I'll think to myself, do you know what, today's not the day, I didn't sleep well last night, I'm not at my best today, today's not the day. And that is an act of self compassion provided with also saying to ourselves, and that's okay, that's okay, right? I'm allowed to kind of step back and choose comfort today. Of course, I then get super curious when I notice that there's a, you the same thing that I keep choosing comfort.
Jessie (17:30.34)
you
Melissa (17:31.022)
that's curious what's going on there. But it is an act of self compassion to do that it is always a choice, right? 100 % 100%. And, and so I'm wondering, the kind of what you've learned about courage, you know, we've been on this courage building journey together, you know, developing skill set and mindset really around around courage and what it means to be courageous. And so I'm wondering,
Jessie (17:37.2)
Yeah.
Melissa (17:59.694)
almost like the before and after, what's changed for you in your coaching work? Now you kind of have, or you don't have them maybe, but you're developing, we do have them, but you're developing those skills, what's changed?
Jessie (18:21.882)
think a big thing has changed for me is just how comfortable I feel with the label of being a coach and being part of the coaching industry. I can kind of really remember in one of our sessions, I think I had a bit of meltdown at you of like,
But I don't come from HR and you know, I'm not this kind of coach and I do have opinions and I'm interested in politics and all this kind of stuff. And I think there were a lot of things for me where I kind of came into the coaching world and yeah, I had a bit of a sort of funny reaction to it and it were not funny, but it didn't really kind of, I felt a bit of an odd one out, know, even though actually
On the face of it, I really should have fitted in. I'm like a middle-aged white woman and let's, you know, let's be clear. And I don't think this is a good thing. The coaching industry is not diverse because it is filled with people that kind of look and sound like me. And I think that's a massive problem for the industry. And it's one that kind of plays on my mind a lot. having said, although I kind of look the part, I didn't really feel the part, I think just because.
I had a different background, had a different portfolio of things.
And so I kind of really valued all the coaches I was meeting who came from these, guess what I would consider more traditional backgrounds into coaching. know, many of these people have been my coaches and they were kind of excellent. But I felt I couldn't quite be a coach like them. And I was giving myself a hard time. And I was, yeah, I was on a bit of a stream of like consciousness to you of like, I'm not this and I'm not that and da da da. And, you know, I'm a bit sweary and...
Melissa (20:12.856)
Yeah.
Jessie (20:24.048)
Although I don't think I am actually that's where I am coaching conversations just in supervision. And you said, like, you said, but that's the point, you know, that that's maybe where you step into being the best coach. And so for me, it's a really simple thing, but I think it's something that people struggle with like all the time, both in career change and in leadership roles is basically the kind of
challenge of being good, but being different, you know, being, I know it's really cliche, kind of being true to yourself and turning up like, you know, aware of who you are and the foibles, but like bringing the best of who you are, you know. And the moment I kind of lent into that and maybe just lent in bit more to, you know, what the asset I do bring to people when I coach them is.
in the civil services, I have done all those roles. I have been in difficult conversations with ministers. I do know what that context is like. And by the way, I still know about it. So if you start talking about some area of policy, I've got some background knowledge. And for me, think I probably am not totally aligned with this whole thing of the ICF of knowing the sector is almost a disadvantage. For me, I think it's...
As long as you're not stepping into a vice, for me, I've seen it has been an advantage for my clients to understand. There's some really specific things to working in government. And I think if you've done it, you can kind of bring that. if you're interested in politics and policy, that's going to help someone who's leading in that context. that's going to... So I just, I think I stopped worrying about all the things I kind of wasn't.
Melissa (21:55.661)
Yeah.
Melissa (22:10.264)
Thanks
Jessie (22:19.8)
you know, and I just relaxed into a bit of who I was. And then, yeah, that was a game changer for me.
Melissa (22:20.609)
Yes.
Melissa (22:31.138)
Yeah, I mean, I'm immediately reminded of the kind of difference between fitting in and belonging. you know, belonging is about, you know, not needing to change who you are, just be who you are. Whereas fitting in is, you know, what should I wear? What should I look like? What should I say, you know, in order to fit into this group?
Jessie (22:39.202)
Yeah. Yeah.
Jessie (22:54.864)
Yeah.
Melissa (22:55.702)
And, you know, there are a lot of coaches out there. It's, you know, there's a, it's, you know, we call ourselves on part of the coaching profession. There's lots of kind of comparing and, you know, more, what do I need to be in order to be a valid, valid and maybe valued part of this profession? And I remember when we first met actually, even before the program, we kind of met at that really
fortuitous, I guess, for us that that that that cusp of I've done my coach training, I know what being and doing coaching should look like. Now I'm trying to work out how I put that on how it fits me. And I think that was your, you know, that that work that you did around more, who am I? And how does this fit with me? What kind of coach do I want to be? I think we all do that, don't we that kind of
I want my own, yes, I'm a coach, but what's my identity? Yes. You know, we've all learned the same tools and the models and looked at the competency framework and all of that stuff. But who, who am I in this? How do I want to show up? And then having the courage to show up as yourself, as a coach, that's where the real sweet spot is. Right. Definitely.
Jessie (24:12.814)
Yeah, a hundred percent, which actually kind of, I mean, now you say all that, it's like I'm sort of, while I've changed careers, I might be just repeating some stuff I did earlier in my career because, know, funny enough, the civil service has the same thing where it has competencies, which is why this kind of word competencies was a bit triggering to me. And it might be to any ex civil servant.
Melissa (24:33.326)
and
Melissa (24:39.692)
Yes.
Jessie (24:41.04)
Like, my God, I've left the civil service to get away from these competencies because it's a kind of way of, for someone like me, it's, I don't know, this might be a kind of only child thing, but it's like, I don't like to be sort of boxed into a, I don't like to be standardized really, you know, kind of rebel against it. I mean, intellectually, I get the need to have standards and consistency and I'm intellectually totally pro.
Melissa (25:00.12)
I get it.
Jessie (25:10.522)
professionalizing the civil service or the coaching profession, but kind of emotionally, I'm a total rebel at heart and want to kick back against all those things and kind of find my own path. So it is that process I've gone through of sort of, and it's the same thing when I came to civil service of probably not feeling that maybe I did look like a lot of people, but I didn't really think or feel or respond like other people.
Melissa (25:22.712)
Yeah.
Jessie (25:40.356)
And it's how can I take the kind of...
the essence of the core things that are absolutely essential. know, so for instance, I would pick on absolutely in the civil service in being impartial, you know, if you're not willing to show up to say that you're there to serve a minister, whether you personally voted for them or not, then you shouldn't be there. And you shouldn't show up to a coaching conversation unless you will hold that confidentiality for that client.
100%, you know, these things I hold so kind of dear to my heart, but then elsewhere I want some flexibility for my individuality to kind of come through because, yeah, because that's a very strong driver for me.
Melissa (26:35.04)
Yeah. And I'm also really conscious that, you know, when we think about, you know, the kind of clients that we work with, the kind of space, you know, as you said, you're doing, you know, still doing a lot of coaching in the civil service. But you know, whatever kind of space, if you like, we're coaching in industry or sector or type of client, whatever, is that I think that that's that idea of
You know, they don't care, do they? They don't care what the competency standard says. I don't know, right? But they don't care. What they care about is the person in front of them that they either connect with or they don't connect with. And I just think that they, the more you belong, your own sense of belonging, your own sense of identity and who you are as a coach and how you want to show up, the more that you connect with the kind of clients that you want to work with and they want to work with you.
Jessie (27:07.248)
I'm sorry!
No.
Melissa (27:33.63)
And they people can spot a carbon copy a mile off a mile off, you know, and say this idea of, of, yeah, being doing the work to get clear on, know, who I, who am I as a coach within all it is you said within all of the boundaries that yet are important. And some of them are very, you know, I hold dear as my own values. But who am I in this space? That's what the client connects with, right? Not not
not which competency did we just meet. Which, again, just as caveat, just as you did, I'm going to say, I'm all up for standardizing and professionalizing and all very important. But I'm all about the human that is the coach, right? Because that's what the client connects with.
Jessie (28:17.807)
Yeah.
Yeah, and I think you kind of go through this process as a coach.
At first it's kind of understanding the tools and the techniques and then the more you get into it, it's about working on yourself because that's what you're bringing, right? And so if you've got kind of biases or hangups or you're grumpy or you're angry or you're scared or you're like, you're bringing that in and you always use the word curious.
Melissa (28:42.222)
Mmm.
Melissa (28:51.341)
Yeah.
Jessie (28:56.842)
you know, now before a session, it's not like I'm going to my models and my questions. I'm more like, just check in. What's going, what kind of state of mind am I in? is, where do I need to, do I need to have a word with myself? You know, sometimes I'm like, you know, and that would be more important so that I come in in the right space of time, you know, sorry, in the right...
Melissa (29:15.788)
Yes. Yes.
Jessie (29:25.21)
frame of mind, I meant to say, then I had, you know, the techniques and tools are kind of important, but I think that's the work, that's the work that you and I've had some incredible supervisors who've helped me do. And I get asked quite a lot about coaching by other people. And I think the thing I maybe haven't been brave enough to say, but I would want to say is like, if you're not up for that work on yourself,
Melissa (29:26.284)
Yeah. Yeah.
Jessie (29:55.6)
like this is not the profession for you. And that work on yourself is quite hard sometimes because it's like looking at the bits of yourself that you're like, you know, what judgment did I bring in there or what bias or, you know, whatever. I kind of enjoy that, you know, I find it is the discomfort sometimes as well, but I enjoy it. I was just going to say the other thing I...
Melissa (29:58.19)
Bye.
Melissa (30:13.261)
Yeah.
Melissa (30:21.186)
Mmm.
Jessie (30:25.124)
just wanted to say about how I guess this work changed me was getting comfortable with rejection in my coaching work. And it's very kind of simply to say, I guess, if you're comfortable with who you are as a coach, people will connect to you, but people will also disconnect from you. And that's good. Like they should.
Melissa (30:54.349)
Mm.
Jessie (30:54.37)
Some people should meet me and think, no, she's not the right coach for me. And that's great. I, you know, that's good for them to think that we don't work together and they find another coach who is. But I think maybe when you're first kind of changing career or you're, or when you're feeling vulnerable, that dealing with that rejection is, is, yeah, it's hard.
Melissa (31:18.894)
Yeah, absolutely.
Jessie (31:22.864)
but it's made me more, and just generally being kind of freelancer has made me more confident in dealing with that. Because it is part of like when you step into doing the work you wanna do and being the person sort of revealing more of yourself, some people are gonna say, yes, thank you very much. And some people are gonna say, not for me.
Melissa (31:35.308)
Yeah, definitely.
Melissa (31:48.876)
Not for me. Yeah, totally. Totally. And I think actually, it's really interesting because you're touching on two points there, which I think are super important for coaches, particularly new coaches, but also for new coaches who are not new or novice coaches who are, you know, stepping into self employment or setting up their own business because I think that the rejection is hard, we said, I think sometimes it's crippling.
Because not only does it feel like a, or not only can it feel like a sort of personal, they don't like me, and we all want to be liked, right? So there's that sort of personal like hurt if you like that comes with that. And then there's also the pressure of, but I really need the money, or I really need to start building my client list and, or you know, all of that.
pressure that we get that we set ourselves right when we're we're a business, you know, it'd be lovely if we were doing it for free and maybe something well, it would be lovely if the money wasn't an issue and for maybe some you know, from some people, it may not be but I think for most people, you know, you're there to earn a living. And so that it's sort of like a double two sides of the same coin, right? There's the personal all that hurt, they don't like me. And then there's also that, oh, that would have been a really lovely piece of income and now I have
it. And so I think we've both been on that journey of getting to the, you know, it doesn't, well, does it still hurt? I'm thinking from my perspective now, I think what I'm able to do now is that when a client says no, and I think I still do get a little twinge of, ooh, that, you know, is it me? Is there something wrong with it? But I
I'm now curious about it rather than running down the rabbit hole of self doubt and, you know, beating myself up and I'm just curious about, okay, why did that show up with that client? Let me just think about that for a moment. And you learn over time that, you know, if you're good at what you do, which, you know, the money comes, right? The clients, the clients, if you, if you do it right, the client, the right clients come and now we're in that wonderful position where we're like, actually,
Melissa (34:02.818)
that client said no, or I said no to that client. my goodness, what you know, that's almost even now I'm like, whoa, I just said, no, you're not, you know, you're not the right client for me. Just as I may not be the right coach for you. So it's real empowerment. I don't know, there's something good about that. But, but yeah, I don't think that that goes away that idea of rejection hurts a little bit.
but we can just be curious about it and know that it's normal for it to not feel great when someone says, no, want to work with you, right?
Jessie (34:34.136)
Yeah, well, because, yeah, because I think Brenny Brown talks about, she talks about kind of rejection also as in you make a kind of leap for connection and you get rejection, you know, and so there's, you know, that's that, that kind of shows up, I think, I mean, shows up in people's personal life, but it shows up at work as well.
Melissa (35:01.122)
Yeah.
Jessie (35:04.065)
And I think being self-employed is like incredibly sort of vulnerable in very many ways because yeah, you're trying to kind of connect with people to offer services in a range of ways. And some of that comes and some of it doesn't. And I think it's also can be very unpredictable. So I've had things I thought were gonna...
come to fruition, didn't, and then something will kind of pop in that you weren't expecting or someone you spoke to a year ago will come back and say, yeah, I do want to do that coaching. you kind of, you know, because, because actually often it's worth saying, and something I would say to less experienced coaches is sometimes you won't even know, you know, you're just not here, you know, and I also talk to you.
Melissa (35:36.322)
Yes.
Melissa (35:55.704)
death.
Jessie (35:59.14)
you know, friends and I see stuff on LinkedIn and it's quite right, you know, in the consultancy world, you can be ghosted sometimes, you know, so I'm lucky that's not really been a thing for me. I've kind of, you know, nine times out of 10 always known, but, you know, that happens to people. So you have to do a lot of work to kind of self assess and the culture I came from in the civil service. mean, first of all, rejection.
You know, it happens and it happens to people when they go for a promotion, but it, know, it isn't that often, you know, whereas if you're self-employed, it can be happening to you like, you know, every week, if you want alongside success, right? Because that's the thing, lots of, you know, lots of success, more success comes in and lots of rejection comes in. Um, but coming from, um, employed culture, think, you know, we don't probably pass ourselves up for stuff.
as often, so you're kind of not maybe exposed to it. And then I also think the other challenge I had is the kind of whole culture of kind of appraisal and other people assessing you. It sort of, you know, means at worst you become a little bit infantilised in that you're dependent on the judgment of others. And I think
some of the bravery that maybe has to come when you step into coaching and self-employment is you have to self-assess, self-assess, self-assess. you were saying, like nobody's going to come and do your appraisal. And sometimes you really don't know why a client turned you down. It could be that they didn't have budget or it could be that they thought you were like no good. And you'll just never know that. And you'll have to go through in your head, you know.
And then at some point you'll have to turn off going through that in your head. Otherwise you'll be ruminating for now and you just got to move on, you know. But that's when I say kind of coaches have to do the work on themselves. I think they have to do the, you know, you have to self assess and do the appraisal on yourself as well, you know.
Melissa (37:53.71)
Absolutely.
Melissa (38:05.192)
Yeah, I think one of things I realized quite early on transitioning from employed to self employed is that I almost had to not just redefine what success looked like for me, because that's thrown out there all the time, know, redefine what success looks like for you. It was actually for me working out how I was going to measure success. Because the ways that I made success and employed life, you're quite right was appraisals.
other people's feedback, which I got through appraisals, it was, you know, targets, achieving objectives, KPIs, and all of that was almost served up to me on a plate in employed life. Here it is, when you've achieved it, you'll be successful. And you kind of never questioned it, really. I mean, you may have done, but it was that's how it happened. And then I got into self employed life, and I was like, there's nobody giving me objectives and KPIs, and there's nobody measuring me against those anymore.
Jessie (38:34.83)
Yeah. Yeah.
Melissa (39:00.79)
like, okay, how do I how will I know because I'd, I'd swallowed whole that thing that we're told, which is that, you know, in order to know that you've been successful, it has to be measurable in some way. And I and I met and by measure, I was thinking about quantity, quality numbers. And I'm like, that's not how I measure success anymore. It isn't you know, it isn't a spreadsheet with well, this was the objective. And this is when I met
Jessie (39:15.066)
Yeah.
Melissa (39:29.358)
that's how much money I made. maybe I look plenty of self employed people do that. But I had to work out a whole new measurement process so that I could feel I could know in my heart that I was being successful in a way that was meaningful to me. So yeah, it is it is. I loved it when you said it sort of infantilized infantilizes us a little bit because I think for me it made me lazy. It made me lazy. I didn't have to worry about what success looked like.
Jessie (39:54.799)
Yeah.
Melissa (39:58.326)
somebody told me and they gave me a measure for it and now I'm responsible for my own success defining it and measuring it and that's been certainly for me quite a big learning curve I think. Being a grown-up, being an adult and not waiting for someone else to do it for me right.
Jessie (40:12.954)
Yeah.
You
Yeah. I often think, maybe because sometimes I'm at a certain stage of my career where, I mean, I don't know what the next 20 years hold and I have plans and I have ideas, but one thing I've learned is you can't absolutely kind of predict that. So sometimes I play around in my head of like, what would the self-employed person take back into?
employed status and one would be to self-assess more, right? You know, regardless actually of the feedback that you're served up, you, don't, people get so kind of hung up on, and I know it's important for progression and bonuses and, but you know, feedback is subjective, right? you know, sometimes you might get positive feedback and actually self-assess that you could have done a bit better, you know, and that's valid. And, and
Melissa (41:03.96)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jessie (41:17.312)
equally, you know, sometimes you'll get feedback that you might self assess is wrong, you know, and it might be coming from someone's bias, you know, like, but that's something I would take back into employment. You know, if I ever went in, it's something you can't kind of unset really, because once you've had to do it for yourself, I think you can't kind of put that genie back in the bottle and
Melissa (41:44.895)
No.
Jessie (41:45.636)
I would try and get that into somehow, wire that more into the way that we help. And I think I try to do this when I'm talking with coaches about their career, I try to get them to self assess, you know, so sometimes we look up feedback they've had on their leadership style. But the question always in my mind is, you know, what, what resonates for you? What do you agree with? What do you disagree with? You know, and why.
rather than kind of coming and just accepting it. It's, yeah, what's your assessment? Yeah, yeah. Which is a great thing for people to bring to coaching, roundabout kind of feedback or appraisal time. But that I've noticed is a bit of a mindset shift for people because people often want to bring in a piece of feedback and they'll say to me, you know,
my boss, my director says, you know, I'm X, Y and Z, you know, so let's work on that. And I'm like, can we dial back a stage and say, do you agree with that? Do you agree with that? What cooperates that? Do you agree with that? And it can be, yes, it can be lots of things too.
Melissa (42:53.09)
Yeah. Yeah.
Melissa (43:02.062)
Yeah, I'm you've reminded me because this is a leader of mine a few years ago now who you know, one of we've all had, you know, the worst leader and the best leader and all of that stuff. And he was definitely one of one of the best leaders I had. And we were talking about the you know, the very age old quote, you know, that, you know, feedback is a gift. Which I'm like, I always was always a little bit uncomfortable with.
Jessie (43:14.704)
Thank you.
Jessie (43:25.52)
Yeah. Yeah.
Melissa (43:30.478)
He said yeah, it is a gift but because it's a gift you get to choose what you do with it You can unwrap it you can shove it in a door drawer and decide not to unwrap it You can unwrap it look at it and go. Actually, it's not really for me and gift we gift it Give it to someone else right? It's it's your it's a gift. So therefore it's your choice what you do with it. I was like
Jessie (43:36.176)
Yeah.
Melissa (43:52.208)
my goodness, that is like, yeah, you're right. It's this idea of feedback is a gift and therefore you should always accept it and be grateful that you've been given it. Right. And it's like, no, it's a choice. It's, you know, it's just a gift. You get to choose, you know, how pleased you are with that gift. know, like, you know, granny's knitted jumper at Christmas or the umpteenth pair of socks you've opened or, you know, whatever. Right. So yeah, I love that. Yeah. It's so true. Yeah.
Jessie (44:04.942)
Yeah.
Jessie (44:15.568)
Yeah, yeah. Some gifts go to charity shops, right? know, probably now they're all full of some, right?
Melissa (44:23.128)
Totally, yeah, you can probably go around and notice all of that. that's a really big moment. Yes, totally, totally.
Jessie (44:26.736)
you
Yeah, the phrase I heard once and it's about corroborating, know, and I kind of try to do this a bit. And it was something like someone said, if one person tells you you're drunk, you can still go to the bar. But if three people tell you you're drunk, it's time to leave the pub. know, so it's like kind of, yeah, often getting a bit analytical, right, about
Melissa (44:59.406)
Thank
Jessie (45:00.194)
about people's kind of opinions of yourself, know, so particularly when I'm kind of working with leaders around leadership style, trying to help them look for if there's something they want to work on, you know, a pattern really, and often what's the pattern between the internal story we're telling ourselves and is that, you know, because often that's very self-critical and is that corroborated by others.
Melissa (45:04.59)
and
Melissa (45:08.333)
Yeah.
Melissa (45:26.734)
Mm.
Jessie (45:29.572)
But yeah, self-assert.
Melissa (45:30.378)
I love that. I'm gonna, I'm gonna take that because I've not heard that before. So let me just check. I've got that right. So, so if one person tells you that you're drunk, you can still go to the bar. If three people tell you you're drunk, then you should probably leave the pub. Right. I love that. Because that that's true. That's so true. Right. This corroborating your evidence, right? Yeah, I'm so using that. That's brilliant. Jesse, I'm loving this conversation. And I as we said at the beginning, or you said at the
Jessie (45:43.279)
Yeah.
Jessie (45:47.886)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Thanks.
Jessie (45:59.6)
Go for run.
Melissa (45:59.854)
likely we could be talking for hours here because there's so so much richness. So I'm like, yeah, we're gonna definitely have to do a part two for sure. But I always close the podcast conversation by asking what's what's one thing that you think every coach should know about courage?
Jessie (46:08.112)
Yeah.
Jessie (46:21.162)
that you can't do coaching without it.
Melissa (46:23.914)
Okay. I like that. Yeah, you can't do coaching without it. Okay. I'm well, I'm going to take a breath and say thank you, Jessie. Thank you for being here. Thank you for sharing yourself and engaging in a lovely great conversation as I knew it would be. Yeah, it's been a real pleasure. So thank you very much.
Jessie (46:35.248)
you
Jessie (46:49.328)
I've really enjoyed it. And as you said, we could have gone for hours. Whether listeners would have appreciated that, I don't know. If three people tell you to stop talking, then...
Melissa (46:53.61)
Yeah, I agree.
Melissa (46:57.816)
Probably not. Probably not, but you know what?
Melissa (47:03.778)
Let's give her some feedback. Because if it's one, then we can do a part two. Yeah, brilliant. Lovely, Jesse. Thank you so much. You take care.
Jessie (47:15.8)
You too.