Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Real faith. Real life. Hosted by Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown of Sandals Church, The Debrief Podcast goes beyond Sunday conversations—diving into the questions, stories, and struggles that shape who we are. Thoughtful. Honest. Unfiltered.
Welcome to the debrief podcast with Matthew Stephen Brown, where we take questions about faith, the bible, and culture, and give you honest practical advice you can trust. This is a space to ask anything and get real answers for real life. We're glad you're here. Now let's get into today's episode.
Tammy Brown:Hey, you guys, and welcome back to another episode of the debrief with Matthew Steven Brown. I am Tammy, his wife, and his current co chair on the debrief. And our first question, Matt, comes from Rob up in Big Bear, California.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yes.
Tammy Brown:He says this. I've been a Christian for a while. I'm 22, and I find myself stuck in this cycle of being super on fire for God and being obedient to him. But then before I know it, I'm back to my old habits, blowing off church and falling into sins I've tried time and time again to stop. Then I crawl back to God and repeat the cycle.
Tammy Brown:What are some tips or ways I can stop this cycle and just keep myself locked in?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah, Rob, man, thank you so much for that question. Great I question, think that all too, Christians go through something like this, even if they're not aware of this. Now they might like, you know, jump into traditional sins, but they might feel disconnected from church, not get things out of the messages, or maybe not engage in worship the way that they would want. But I would really encourage you, Rob, and maybe if you send us some kind of connection, how could he connect to the debrief?
Tammy Brown:He probably could direct message us on
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:this Yeah, you could direct message us. I will send you a copy of my book, a book called You. I'm guessing you're a four on the Enneagram, I don't know that to be true.
Tammy Brown:You might have a lot of four in
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:you. You have a lot of four in you, and fours need to, what I call, embrace the seasons, right? So there's summer, there's winter, there's fall, and there's spring. And those four seasons are so important. And I think a lot of times people that are fours in the enneagrams, or very up, very down, very in, very out, feel like they have to be like everybody else, just kind of like locked in.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And what I would say is you're a person that needs to embrace the seasons, and so what I would do is I would embrace the emotional seasons, but lock in on your spiritual truth. And I think that those are two things. Because our faith is not our emotions, man. Sometimes I feel on fire for God. You know, like you and I went to the Alpha training last year in England, I feel like I heard a word from God.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I heard truth from God, I was pumped up, I was fired up, I was ready to preach on revival, got a couple of criticisms, and I was like, oh my gosh, I can't preach, I don't like the church. And that was like ten days later. So I think that, you've been married to me, I'm a super emotional person, I am on fire. I'm up, I'm down, I'm in, I'm out. And actually you are too a little bit.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so that's where all the excitement comes from in our marriage because we're As too as crazy at we're not. Yeah, in love, not Down crazy
Tammy Brown:at at the same time, it's good.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So what I would say is, Rob, just really, really grapple with your deep need to be consistent. I mean, you've been married to me now for almost thirty years. How would you compare young Matt Brown at 22, you dated me when I was 22 to Matt Brown at 54, just in terms of consistency, I would guess you would say there was a huge
Tammy Brown:difference. Oh, yeah. There was a huge, huge
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Was I consistent at anything at 22?
Tammy Brown:You were consistent at being inconsistent. Let's say it like that. Was You were consistently
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Consistently inconsistent.
Tammy Brown:Inconsistent at 22.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So Rob, some of this is just maturity, let me warn you here, right? So let's not take maturity for granted. Everybody grows old, some people grows grow old. Yeah, now everybody grows there we go. See, she knows the real thing.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So some of this is just age related. Rob, your brain is not fully developed until you're 26. I'm not saying this is an excuse, it's just you're still growing into who God has made And you to so what I would say is some of this is just a lack of maturity. So maturity is doing what I have to in front of doing what I want to. And so immaturity, right, so what do children do?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Children do what they want to first, and then begrudgingly, reluctantly, maybe never do what they don't want to do. So maturity is doing what I want to first. And so I've learned this about me. If I'm not in the word every day, I'm not right every day. I think some Christians can function in life without spending time with God.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I'm just not one of those people. And by the way, Rob, I don't mean my sermon prep, because I have pastor friends that their time preparing the sermon is their time with God. I am not that way. Those are two separate things for me, work is work, and my time with God is God. My job just happens to be God related.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So what I would say is I really had to embrace this, we only change, Pastor Adam Atchison, our Palm campus, he needs to get all the credit for this. He says, We only change when the pain of staying the same is greater than the pain of changing. And that's the only time that we change. We're reluctant to change. And so what I would say when I read this, Rob, is it sounds like you're getting to the place where the pain of not changing is greater than the pain of staying the same.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I would say that's a good place where you just kind of get really frustrated with yourself and say, okay, look, this is who I am, and if I don't change, this is who I'm going to be. So what would I say? First thing I would say is serve a church. So serving, we know this statistically, people who serve at church are more likely to attend. There's just no way around that.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It is so much easier nowadays to just watch online, not attend, not
Tammy Brown:To get out of the cycle.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah, yeah, and that's a good way to disappear. We all need to be in church, if possible. I realize we have some families that have family members that they're caring for. There are some circumstances.
Tammy Brown:Some circumstances. It can be the exception to
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:the
Tammy Brown:rule, not the rule.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But the rule is if you can be in church, you should be in church, and that's really, really important. And so I would just say find a place to serve, then I would get in a discipleship group, particularly a group with older men. I think young adults is great, Rob, but you need to be in a group with older people that can kind of give you some wisdom. So I would say a discipleship group that maybe is going through the book of Ephesians, that's one of our great discipleship groups that you can go through. Are all kinds of books that we have already pre laid out to try to get you in that rhythm, but it's so important, Rob, that you just become consistent in everything in your life.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And the way to do that is just to admit I'm not consistent. And for me, Rob, you're ahead of me. I was about 30 years old. I was pastoring Sandals Church and was not faithful in my quiet time with God, and by quiet time, mean read my Bible, make some notes, say a prayer. I was not doing that every day until I was 30.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And when I was 30, I just realized this is a real problem for me. And I'm not the husband I want to be, I'm not the father I want to be, I'm not the pastor I need to be, I'm not the Christian I need to be. I've got to break this. And I just really said, okay, I'm gonna read my Bible every day. And nowadays, I'm very consistent.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I'm consistent with the gym. My schedule is very consistent. My dad told me this, he learned this in his doctorate, that structure binds anxiety. And I think that the reason so many young people are so anxious today is because they have no structure in their life. And I would encourage you to look at Genesis chapter one.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:What's the first thing that God does? He brings order into chaos. How does he do that? On the first day, he does this. The second day, he does this.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Third day, fourth day, fifth day, sixth day, and on the seventh day, he rests. And so then Moses tells us the reason we rest, the reason we work six days and rest one day is because God, that's how God spoke order into the universe. And so when we about, when we look at the Old Testament, the first thing he does is he organizes the week, then he organizes their months, then he organizes their festivals, then he organizes their years. And so structure binds anxiety. And a lot of people feel like, especially like you, Rob, I'm assuming you're four, you feel like that's going to mess up your creativity.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I actually think it will unleash your creativity. Because when I don't know what to do, I end up not doing anything, or I go into my old habits. And so I would say serve in a group, and then get with a group of Christians where you can talk about your old habits. So was it last weekend we talked about confession? So the last message, our sermon title, and I think it was trusting God with my deepest needs, or trusting Jesus with my deepest needs, sorry, I should remember my own message, but I'm on to the next week.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But one of those is learning to confess. So James five sixteen, Confess your sins one to another so that you may be whole and healed. What you're crying out here for, Rob, is healing. And the only way to do that is to confess and say, Look, man, you know, if it's a porn addiction, you got to look somebody in the face. You know, I remember when I had to do that as a young man, and just tell somebody, who's actually at Magnolia Avenue Baptist Church, I said, look, this is a consistent problem.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And the guy, I can't remember his name, Gosh, I should remember his name.
Tammy Brown:Doesn't matter.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Doesn't matter. But he said, When you do it again, tell me again. And I was like, I am not telling this guy again. And helped me with a struggle, you know, of pornography when I was a young man. And I had tried a lot of things.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know, when you and I started dating, drinking. Tammy told me, You date me, you don't drink. Well, that's great accountability. I And quit so really the power of discipline, you know, from other disciples, people that love us. You got to be careful, you don't want legalistic, you know, people that are punitive, but people that actually love you want the best for your life.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And then you got to give people permission to speak into your life. So here's the good news. You say, then I crawl back to God. The good news is God is And there every time you I just would encourage you to rejoice in those moments, because Rob, some people don't crawl back. Some people slip away, unfortunately, forever.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So I would just say locked in is something that's going to change over time as you learn to lock in. And, you know, I just would ask family, friends, people that know you, am I inconsistent? What are some areas where I could be more consistent? I wouldn't just focus in on God. I would say this is probably a character issue, and let's deal with it in every area of our life.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I would say, Rob, probably most of your friends are inconsistent. Most of your friends are flaky. Most of your friends don't follow through. Most of your friends say one thing and do another. That's just a-
Tammy Brown:That's being 22, Rob.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah, it's being 22.
Tammy Brown:To an extent.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. And so give yourself some grace, but know that's where you are, but that's not where God wants you to stay. So any thoughts on that? I mean, you've
Tammy Brown:Yeah. Loved me for I was gonna say back to you brought up the enneagram right before this. Part of why I think we would be curious if you have a lot of four that's sort of the more emotion driven person because you're recognizing the really high highs and low lows of this cycle. And I think at 22, just speaking of maturity, the maturity to recognize the cycle at 22 is pretty incredible. So I just I think that you're in the best place.
Tammy Brown:Some people aren't recognizing that cycle till their forties, and it's a little trickier to dial back some cycles in your forties than in your early, early twenties. So I think that's why we were curious about the Enneagram score because being very emotion driven can be you're super up, and then you're super out. And then you're super up, and you're super out. And you really feel that pendulum of when you feel good with God and super on fire with God and then super far from God. So the emotions might be making it seem a little bit more dramatic than it is.
Tammy Brown:I think one of the things I'm curious about or that I would my 2¢ would be is this is such a gateway and such an opportunistic moment for you and anybody in this situation to ask yourself some questions. When I'm doing this thing, whatever the bad habit is, am I always with a certain person or a group of people? Right? Because when we start following God, we do have to make some different decisions about where we're putting our time, our energy, our our relational efforts. And so if it's always with the same people, you might need to be mindful of how much time you're spending with those people because you you're you're learning yourself and you're recognizing, I don't have a good willpower with this group of people to make my best choices.
Tammy Brown:At the end of the day, your best choices for you is what matters most. So so who are you with or where are you or what is happening in your life? The truth, Rob, is that this struggle will be a struggle your whole life regardless of Enneagram style, regardless of age. All of us tend to go through cycles of the same things, and we're like, oh, man, again, like, I thought I was better than this. I thought I had dealt with this.
Tammy Brown:I thought I had left this behind. I think what happens if you so choose though is the time lapse in between gets shorter and shorter, the bounce back that the Yeah. Running to God sooner happens so much quicker. And I don't I don't wanna minimize the impact of sin, but I would say don't ever feel like you can't run back to God time and time and time and time again. And so I just love that for you.
Tammy Brown:Here's one thing I'll shameless plug I'll add to this is, like I said, who are you spending time with? And one of the things that's happening here at Sandals Church that's been so incredible is our young adult ministry here at Sandals Church. They meet, I think, at every campus on Tuesdays, but we have a campus not too far from Big Bear up in Lake Arrowhead that you could probably go to the young adult group, find some good community there. And it doesn't mean we abandon everyone who's not following Jesus, but it does mean we're mindful of the time, the energy, what we're doing. You know, maybe you're like, when we go out at night, it gets gnarly.
Tammy Brown:So let's start doing coffee dates because it doesn't tend to get like that crazy at coffee. We don't get rid of our non Christian friends or people, but but we do need to start building a a structure and a network of people that when we're with them, we're not going back into old habits. Mhmm. Or we're being we're all being pushed to be the person that God wants us to be and reminded of that. So, I just if you're listening and you're in your twenties, or late out of high school, we do have an incredible young adult ministry happening across our campuses at Sandals Church.
Tammy Brown:Might be really something to go to and just start building some community where you're not cycling back to the worst version of who you are.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Me jump on this. You know, Sometimes mountain communities, not always, but sometimes, you know, especially young people, can be drawn to bad habits. And so in small communities like that, sometimes it's hard to break away from your negative community because the town is so small you can't get away from that. So the beauty of living someplace like Riverside or Southern California, where you can literally go be, just disconnect anywhere, small towns like Big Bear, like Lake Arrowhead, and you grew up in a mountain town, she grew up in Mammoth, California, you can get into some negative groups pretty quickly, and it's really hard to break out of that because-
Tammy Brown:The circle's small.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:The circle's small.
Tammy Brown:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So what I would say is if I was a young person struggling with that, I would be in church as much as possible. So whenever the church doors were open, if I can't trust myself to be by myself, or with the people that I find myself being alone with, I would try to be at the church at all times, and really, really focus, Rob, on school, if you're in school, and you probably got to juggle some kind of work, because it's expensive to live in Southern California, and then just be at church as much as you possibly can. Because as a young person, a lot of time, we just get in trouble and fall away when we're bored, or we're running with the wrong group. And so I just would say as a small town, I just would really, really encourage you to think about that, because, you know, Big Bear Lake Arrowhead is a great place for someone like you and I to move, because we're not going to fall into, you know, a group like that, because we're not in high school, we're not in college. You and I don't feel peer pressure the way that we did when we were younger, and we don't really have people trying to trip us up with stuff, but when you're a young person in your small town, the chances of you having some people that are not going to lead you in the right direction, that's real.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I'm not saying move from Big Bear, so don't tell your parents, Pastor Matt said I should move out. That's not what I'm saying. I'm just saying that's, you need to acknowledge that the mountain community can be a challenge if you are involved in negative things. It can be a positive if you're involved in great things, but just
Tammy Brown:know And almost any community does have a good community. You've just got to find it. And that's why I said it. I would ask yourself, am I always with the same group of person or group of people? And then a similar question might be, who am I around that inspires me to be better?
Tammy Brown:That's checking in on me spiritually, that it's encouraging me to do what's right and and grow in that way? And then start making sure that you're prioritizing them. At about 22, like, 21 to 24 tends to be sort of a relational shift in life. It's one of those natural milestones, whether you're a Christian or not a Christian. It's like you're out of high school, you're out of college.
Tammy Brown:There tends to be this huge relational shift at that age anyways. Mhmm. And so some of you know, it might be a good opportunity for you to start building some new relationships
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So you didn't in mention this, but I would've said that one of the things that I changed, because I gave my life to Christ at I think 21, 21, but I had to change my friend group. Didn't mention that, but I did. And that was painful because I found myself alone for a bit. And you and I both said this, that one of our biggest regrets of our time in college is that we weren't more involved in church. That was one of our things that we wish, because the There's problem with education no reason be school, but- Education is artificial community.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And what I mean by that is not that your friends aren't real, it's just that at one time, everybody stops going to school. And the great news about church is, guess what's gonna happen next Sunday? And every Sunday until Jesus comes, there's going to be church. And we you don't graduate from church until you die, so we're here to love you. And I just think we would have if we could go back, I think that's one of things we would have changed.
Tammy Brown:And one of the things at that age too that is that makes the church so meaningful, and it, you know, it it would be easy to go, well, of course, you guys are gonna say be in church.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Tammy Brown:That's what you do. It's a shameless plug. You want your church to grow. Yeah. Here's the thing.
Tammy Brown:You just meet people, and and what you're giving your time and your attention to is making the world a better place. It's walking with people who've been through things you've been through. It's caring for people. It's sharing the good news of Jesus. But but you also make connections with older people.
Tammy Brown:Like, if you you know, you may have great parents, but that's not the case for everybody. There are some people who don't have relationship with their parents, and they meet older people here that can speak wisdom into them. You get, like, the one offs like, hey. After serving tonight, we're all going to dinner. Do you wanna go?
Tammy Brown:You start building a connection and community that is rooted into the thing you wanna be about most, and it just it just is true about the church. And so and we tend to think Samuel Church is a really wonderful church.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Changed our lives, and we love this church.
Tammy Brown:Yep. So okay. Rob, great question. Thank you for sending that in. And don't forget, again, I'm just gonna shameless plug that, but we do have an incredible young adult gathering and ministry happening at this church for anybody in their post high school, early to mid twenties to be a part of.
Tammy Brown:So you can check that out. Okay. Next question comes right here from Riverside from Sean. Says this, a few months back, you mentioned that a pastor in England prophesied that a church matching the description of our Woodcrest campus would have a revival. Based on scripture and the historical tradition of the church, can you describe the elements of what a church that is experiencing revival looks like?
Tammy Brown:Second question, what can we be doing at Sandals to be available to the Holy Spirit to help cultivate revival? Such a good question.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah, Sean, this is a great question. So let me, really, because there's several questions here. So based on scripture and historical tradition of the church, can you describe the elements of what a church is experiencing revival with? So revival always starts with repentance. There is a conviction of sin.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Is something that corporately So it's not worship, it's not great Bible teaching, it's not a great prayer service. The Holy Spirit falls on an area or a people, and there is a conviction of sin. And what happens is believers are convicted of their sin, and they repent of that. And so if we go back to James five sixteen that we talked about in confessing your sins one to another, confess your sins one to another so that you may be whole and healed, because the earnest prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective. That's James five sixteen and seventeen.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So what happens when the church is convicted of their sin, and purify themselves before God, right, there's this outpouring of the Holy Spirit, this outpouring, and so what I would say is first there's repentance, and then there's a manifestation of the Spirit. This could be, historically, it's been tongues, it's been prophetic words, it has been healings, There have just been dynamic movements of God. And so, so much of what's wrong with the charismatic movement today is it's just the gifts without repentance. It's why I loved John Bevere's book, Our Friend so much, The Awe of God, because he talks about that's what the church is missing, this awe of God, that he is holy, that he's perfect, and that he's amazing, and that for him to truly move in our lives, like according to Isaiah chapter six, when Isaiah sees God seated upon the throne, he says, Woe unto me, I am a man of unclean lips amongst unclean people. So before God puts the coals on his lips to preach and proclaim the truth of God, he is convinced as a prophet, think about Isaiah, as one of the greatest prophets in the history of the world, he's convinced of his own sinfulness and the sinfulness of his people.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:When that happens, the spirit of God descends upon him, places coal, fires of coal, and fire in the Old Testament is a symbol of God's power and purity. So we see the fire by night in Exodus, we see the coals of fire in Isaiah. When the Holy Spirit comes in Acts two, right, it's tongues of fire. So we see God's anointing on Isaiah, and he says, Behold, I will send you, after he answers the call. So first is repentance, then is gifting, and then next is evangelism, a heart for sharing the gospel with lost people.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so this is really what sparks a revival. And so what I would say, know, why it wasn't a revival at Ashbury was certainly amazing, it was a movement of God, it was something that was incredible, what you want to see from that powerful worship experience where people don't leave the college, but they fell on their knees, they cried out, you want to see an outpouring of evangelism. And so really the last time I think we saw a cultural revival in America was during the Jesus revolution, and that's where Jesus just took over the streets, took over the conversation. You go back and you listen to Elton John's song, Jesus, what is his line?
Tammy Brown:Jesus freaks out
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:the Jesus freaks out in the street. Like, so you think about it, Elton John at that point in time is a cultural icon, and he's talking about Jesus in his song, and not in a negative way. And Elton certainly would have not have been a follower of Jesus at that time in his life. I don't know if he is now, but he's recognizing God is doing something. So really-
Tammy Brown:And you're hearing it, like whether you want to or not, because it's just everywhere.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So repentance, an outpouring of the Holy Spirit, evangelism, and then a non believing cultural acknowledgement that God is on the move. So the church does not declare revival, Oh, we're all filled with God. But actually non believers go, what is going on here? And you see that in Acts chapter two. Non believing Jewish leaders go, are you guys drunk?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:What is happening here? And then Peter steps up and preaches this sermon to lost people, and many of them, thousands, are added to the church that day. So it's not one person getting saved. It's not five persons getting saved. It is a movement of God where you can't say, oh my gosh, Matt preached an amazing sermon.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It is no longer about the sermon, it's no longer about the text, it's no longer about the church, it's the spirit of God convicting us of our sin, purifying ourselves, opening ourselves up to the movement of the Holy Spirit, and then it transitions into evangelism, where we are unapologetically, not in a bad way, but unapologetically telling people about our friends and they are coming to Jesus in dynamic ways. So I would say historically, that's a revival. But really, the people who tell us that we're experiencing revival are non Christians. They take notice. Elton John writes songs about it.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Jesus is on the cover of, I think it's Newsweek or Time Magazine, you guys, Time Magazine, June, or it's 1971, I forget what month it is. But Jesus is on the cover of Newsweek Magazine. So think of all that was going on in 1970s. We have Nixon, we have Vietnam, we have a drug epidemic, and what does Time magazine put on the cover?
Tammy Brown:I think some people, question, because people are saying, oh, this revival's happening at this this university. Like, I literally just saw last night
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Tammy Brown:A conference happening at a college right now, and the students wanted to stay and worship and repent and pray and worship, for four or five hours after
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Tammy Brown:They would say that's revival. Revival is happening there, which is similar to what we saw
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. At Ashbury.
Tammy Brown:At Ashbury. And so how are you, what would you call that then if you're not saying it's revival?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I would just say it's a movement of God. I mean, right, we want God to move at every church service at Sandals, but true revival is where it breaks outside of the walls of a church, of a meeting, of a denomination. So when you look at the Jesus movement of the 1960s and early 1970s, I grew up Southern Baptist. Southern Baptists were very, very against the gifts, on the wrong side of slavery. We've had a lot of issues in my denomination.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:They rejected the Jesus movement, but do you know that in 1971, Southern Baptists baptized more people than in any other year in their history. So even though they were saying, don't know about those Jesus freaks out in the street, so they were rejecting that, guess what happened? The revival was so powerful, the wave spilled over their high walls and touched More the Baptist Baptists were baptized that year than any other year. So really, it's the pinnacle of the movement of God, and it was powerful. So true revival is not just about one church, one denomination, it is about the church, the global church, and an outpouring of his spirit.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I think you'd see miracles, and not like, you know, hey, your leg got longer, but like real miracles where we're all like, okay, that was God. So let's go back to the beginning of Sean's question. A few months back, you mentioned that a pastor in England prophesied that a church matching the description of a Woodcrest campus would have a revival. That's not what he said. What he said was there's an ember.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So the word that he used was ember, and he said it wants to flicker. And if revival starts, he said it will start there. And so I would say, I don't know that the revival that God wants to start at Woodcrest, our Woodcrest campus, is the kind of revival that would spill from one campus to all of our campuses, to our community, to our state, to the world. Okay, that's big R revival. That's the Jesus revolution.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:That's what I'm using for the word revival. When I was a kid, did they have revivals at your church? So at our church, we'd have a two week revival where we'd bring in an evangelist and he would preach, and we'd go to church Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. They didn't have that at Harvest, right?
Tammy Brown:We had Harvest Crusade.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah, Harvest Crusade. So that was like a, your church growing up was a mega church that had reached far beyond the church that I grew up in. But even then, so imagine, so back to the thing, he said there was an ember. So what does that mean? God is already doing something, but it's smoldering.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so what do we do to an ember? We fan it, we breathe on it. It needs oxygen in order to take over and catch fire. And the reason that was so powerful for me, Sean, is because I have felt like for a long time, God has wanted to do something at our Woodcrest Campus, but there's a spiritual wall there. And anybody that goes to Woodcrest Campus, I don't mean to blame this on you at all, I don't put this on you at all.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I feel like the enemy is blocking our Woodcrest campus, and I can just give you an example. It took us five years to build a patio cover. Five years. I don't know how many times we paid for soil samples. The county has blocked everything we've tried to do.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:We just, think about California. We just ripped out grass, right? We want to be a good environmentalist.
Tammy Brown:Which the city's asked people to do.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:The city is asking people. We did that at that campus. A county employee tried to stop us from being, what's the word, drought- Tolerant. Tolerant. I mean, they're trying to block us-
Tammy Brown:These are just a couple examples of so many things that have happened up there.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know, and so there's just something happening on that campus, and that campus has faced unique challenges that are not, it's not the members' faults. It's not Pastor Tim's fault. It's not leadership's fault. It's not like the people of Woodcrest are doing. I feel like the enemy is trying to block something that God is trying to do.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so when we read in the book of Acts, we see this. You know, Paul will say, I tried three times to go there, but I was prevented. Like, so something, what was happening? In the book of, oh, why can't I think of it? Timothy, Titus, and?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Hang on a minute. Nope, the other one. Oh. Thessalonians? No.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I'm literally blanking right out. Have no idea where we're going with that. It's Jesus' half brother. Am totally blank. James?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:No. The other one. Jude. Good lord. Sorry guys.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:This is not in my notes. Right. Jude, that brother. So Jude says that, he quotes, you know, Moses needing help, but an angel said, tried to get here, but I was prevented. I was prevented because the Prince of Persia fought me.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So we have to think about that. So there's something, sometimes there are spiritual breakthroughs that need to take place, but we have to deal with the enemy first. And I don't like always putting it on Satan, but I feel like something is pushing back against us, and I feel like it's because the enemy knows that whatever God wants to start, and that's the thing, because some people are gonna say, well, if God wanted to do it, why wouldn't he just make it happen? Because revival is this unique cooperation between the Holy Spirit and people. So God is not just going to do it.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Jesus tells the disciples, so think about Pentecost, he says, Go into this room and remain there until the Holy Spirit comes. They have to be obedient. So their cooperation with the baptism in the Holy Spirit was to listen to Jesus, to be obedient, then the Holy Spirit came, poured out tongues of fire, then they all looked drunk, and Peter stood up and preached. And the best line in the Bible is, We are not drunk, for it is only nine a. M.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:That is the greatest line in the Bible, because it was like 05:00, we could have been hammered, but it's only 09:00. So what I would say is there's an ember already brewing there, and what I think we need to do at Woodcrest, and as a church as a whole, is say, God, you know, how do we enhance this flame? When I was a kid, we'd sing this hymn, It Only Takes a Spark to Get a Fire Going, and it was an old hymn, and it came out of the Jesus movement, and it was one of my favorite songs as a kid. And it's just like the Holy Spirit is just like a wildfire in Southern California in July, you know? He's just looking for a spark to start, not a fire that destroys, but a fire that awakens and saves.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so, because remember, God's fire is not destructive, God's fire is productive, and he does a great work in us. So that's what I would say, and
Tammy Brown:Okay, the last part of this question is what can we be doing at Sandals to be available to the Holy Spirit to help cultivate revival?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So if you listened to this last week's message, I talked about how to worship Jesus authentically. I would say every single week, if I was a member at Woodcrest in every church, and I've been really convicted about this, is to prepare to be obedient. So God, what are you asking me to do? And so in the sermon this week, so it's the triumphal entry into Jerusalem, Jesus basically says, Hey, go into the town and steal me a donkey, and if anyone says, Why are you taking that donkey? Just say the Lord needs it.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And God can't steal things because they're all his, you know what I'm saying? But the owner was temporarily confused as to who owned the donkey, but he just says, let me have it. And the disciples are really, it's really a crucial moment there because, hey, this feels a little wrong, but they do it. And then the next step is to humbly enter into God's presence. And so just to come in, not with an attitude of criticism, all these people aren't right, these people aren't focused, but an attitude of humility.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So Jesus comes into Jerusalem on a young donkey's colt that had never been ridden before, and to say, look, here's your humble king. And so just to understand that God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble, and just say, God, we want you to move. And then I would say, thirdly, prayer. We have to ask And God for this is something I want to do. I want to do more corporate prayer and worship events at our church.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It's something that we need to do. We're just trying to figure out the logistics of it. And you guys can pray for everything that we do, because everything that we do, people need childcare, and kids ministry, man, if you want help our church serve in kids ministry, it is the most important thing that we do, is change the life of a young kid, and it's the hardest thing to get an adult to do at our church. So when we do those events, people are going to ask, Hey, is there something for my kids? So we have to make that work.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So I would say we need to figure out how to introduce prayer. We're finishing Matthew right now, that's something that would be on my radar for an upcoming series, but I would just say prayer. And I got this guy in our church, Mike Piccarelli, and I just did his wedding a couple months ago. And I met Mike, he was just a depressed young man, I think he was 18 or 19 years old wearing a leather jacket, you know, like looked like he rode in on a motorcycle and God just gave me a heart for him. And so he's been at Sandals, I think since 1999.
Tammy Brown:Like really
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:early And every single week he texts me and he says, how can I pray for you this week? And you know, now he's the dad of like five kids, great, great man. But what I would say is pray for the Holy Spirit to convict us of sin, pray for the Holy Spirit to empower us, you know, with gifting, and pray for the messages, man. Each and every week, you know, I have to go to God's word again and figure out a way to be dynamic, be inspiring, you know. And I know you'd say, oh, just preach the word, but you know, pastors preach the word all across this country, and people don't come, so I have to do it in such a way that's engaging.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So pray for me as I preach God's word, or whoever's preaching God's word, because again, it only takes a spark. And I don't even think it has to happen when I'm preaching, but I think it will happen when the church is gathered. So I would say pray for it, that's huge. Another important part is fasting. I would say start fasting and praying, add those two things together and just say, God, we really want to see you move.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Go ahead, I cut you off, sorry.
Tammy Brown:No, I was gonna say, you know, something you didn't mention, but I think is so important, is you talked about when we've seen revivals in the past, it's people, they're unabashedly sharing their faith.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yes.
Tammy Brown:And that's just something that I think all of us can be better at is, you know, which I think starts inward of, you know, what what what am I afraid of, God? Why asking God for boldness and for opportunity. And then kind of really like where the rubber meets the road on, do I believe what I say I
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:believe? Yeah.
Tammy Brown:If so, why am I scared? I should be more scared of people who are far from God, dying and living an eternity apart from him. And so all of us, I think, if we want to see revival, it has to start to some degree within ourselves of, am I on fire for God? Am I excited about him? Am I being a part of the church?
Tammy Brown:Am I telling other people about the life changing saving for now and all eternity good news of Jesus Christ? Amen. Am I doing that? Because I think people are like, well, someone else will do that. Everyone thinks you'll do that.
Tammy Brown:Revival's gotta start with each of us saying, what in me, God, do you need to purify? Do I have bitterness? Do I have unforgiveness? What do I need to confess? What behaviors do I need to turn from?
Tammy Brown:What what do I need to do? And then how am I supporting the church as a whole? And then what am I doing? Am I telling the people that you put in my sphere of influence about you? About how here's what you've done for me, and here's what he can do for you.
Tammy Brown:And your life can be changed and for now and all eternity. And, like, when when we get excited and you know, we've been in ministry thirty years. We've been at Samuels coming up on '29. And I think that's one of the hardest parts of it for me is trying to get like, knowing everyone who saved and but then we're, like, begging people to help support the church in every way, financially or serving in kids, serving in youth, serving with parking, serving with anything is like, if there's nothing better to do Yeah. Yeah.
Tammy Brown:Then they'll give their time and their effort and their energy. I think some of that is so out of balance and people come to church when when everything is going wrong or they need Jesus to be Santa Claus. Like, hey, I have this big need now all of a And so I don't know. I just think I think we as a church have and I don't just mean sandals. I mean
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah, in that church.
Tammy Brown:In that church. Yeah. You know, we have some repenting to do about how we've just become complacent, how we've lost our flavor, how we've lost our joy in sharing the news. And I personally feel super convicted about that. And being a part of that is just how excited am I about Jesus?
Tammy Brown:Because I I hear this all the time. People are like, if being a Christian looks that miserable Yeah. Why would I want it?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Well, and let me say this, a critical spirit is never the Holy Spirit. And so like this last week, we talked about Jesus overturning, you didn't hear the message in studio today, so Jesus overturns the tables. And I think a lot of people in their zealousness for a pure church, right, they want to criticize the church and turn the tables over and show everything that the church is doing wrong, but that turned into a critical spirit. And I've had people say, well, Jesus did it. And I just say, well, you're not Jesus.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:The reason he did that was to make room for hurting people. And it's the last mass healing that Jesus does. A lot of people don't realize that in the book of Matthew is he turns over the tables, he drives out the people selling animals and doves, and really a bank institution, because it's the court of Gentiles, and it's the only part of the temple where foreigners and people with disabilities could worship. And so, you know, think about it if you're blind, if you're lame, if you're deaf, and you need a miracle, you can't go to the one area that was sectioned off for you. And so again, true revival, right, is a heart for the lost and hurting, and it says, a critical spirit, right, narrows and says, these are the true Christians.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:The Holy Spirit says, I want all of these people to be the Christians. And if you're listening, I'm narrowing my hands closed, that's a critical spirit. Holy Spirit, I'm opening my hands broadly to all of these people. And the first thing that happens is the leaders of the temple criticizes theology. That's the first thing they do.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Don't you know? And Jesus, it's the greatest slam of all time. He's like, Haven't you read the scriptures? You don't argue scriptures with the guy who wrote them. But they tried, and so here's all of these Bible students that are completely missing this just work of God, and they actually think it's the work of the enemy, and they decide they got to crucify him.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So really, really fight against your critical spirit. So what I invited the church to do, instead of saying, what does the church, what do they need to change? What do I need to change? And the first thing I challenge all of our churches not to be overly critical of others. It is so easy in our culture to be critical of other Christians, other churches, other people.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And then the next step was not to be so self righteous, that the call of the Christian is always to take the log out of our eye before we help the brother with the speck in theirs. And so, Sean, great question. Yeah, so I'm praying for revival. I want to see revival. Those words spoken by that pastor really lifted me.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:They frightened me in a healthy way because, I mean, all of us as Christians, I think we would say, Yeah, we want revival. But true revival is when the Holy Spirit is just out of control, or we're not in control and the Holy Spirit's in control. And for us to give that up, it's a scary thing to say, Okay, God, take my life, take my finances, take my time, take my church, do whatever you would with this. And I think it was, what's the old pastor he died, Stott's his last name?
Tammy Brown:From where?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:He's from, yeah, he's an old English pastor, but he said, The problem with the living sacrifice is it always crawls off the altar. That was his famous line, and so we're called to be living sacrifices, but we tend to crawl off the altar just like our friend Rob said from Big Bear. It's hard to stay on the altar when you're, and for those of you who don't get the joke, in the Old Testament, you killed a sacrifice and then put it on the altar. But Hebrews says we are to be a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable and pleasing to him. And the problem with the living sacrifice is It can move.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It moves. And so that's the challenge. But so let's just close, and let's just pray for our church. Let's pray for revival, just at Sandals, but across the church. You know, let's look for the work of the Holy Spirit in the church, rather than a critical spirit to a church maybe who is a little different than us, or preached different than us, or, you know, has a little bit different theology than us on a certain issue.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Because one of the ways I think Satan keeps the Holy Spirit from just bringing revival as we're critical of each other, rather than supporting each other and praying for each other, and we need to do that. So let's just close Yeah, in
Tammy Brown:that's great.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Holy Spirit, we just humbly confess, I'll go first, Lord, I'm a sinner, and my life is not where it needs to be, and I just invite you to show me everything that I need to confess. God, cleanse me from all my sins. God, cleanse us as a church from our sins, Lord, in such a way that we could be vessels for your spirit and for an outpouring. God, give us a love of prayer, give us a love of your word, God, give us a love for evangelism, and let us see a movement of God that starts at Woodcrest and just moves through our church and to other churches. God, take that ember and blow your breath on it and bring the fire of revival to us.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And and Lord, I just ask you that you would do that, and you would move in our church. We pray this in Jesus' name. Amen.
Tammy Brown:Amen. Well, these are great questions. And one of the reasons I love this podcast is that for those of you who are brave enough to send your questions in, there's probably a dozen people who wanted to send that question in, but didn't. And so when you send questions into us, it's actually answering them for many more people than yourself. So thank you.
Tammy Brown:So on that note, if you have questions, please send them in. You can do that by going to sandalschurch.com/thedebrief to get us those questions. We have the time and the heart, and so please get those in. To everyone else, thank you so much for listening this. If today's conversation has been meaningful to you or you know someone who it would be meaningful for, please share that.
Tammy Brown:You help support us by subscribing, by liking, by recommending, by sharing. You can actually support us by going to sandalschurch.com/support. That helps with our team that puts this together and everything that it takes, all the techie stuff that I have no idea about to actually get this from this table to you. So you can do that by going to sandalschurch.com/support. And until the next questions, we'll see you next time.
Celeste Contreras:Thank you for listening. We hope this conversation helped you grow in your faith. If you've enjoyed today's episode, make sure to follow us wherever you listen to podcasts and subscribe on YouTube so you don't miss what's next. You can also stay connected by following us on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok for behind the scenes clips, highlights, and more ways to engage with the community. We'll see you next time right here on the debrief podcast with Matthew Stephen Brown.