A Snapshot of Glasgow with Chris Leslie

This week we’re joined by photographer Chris Leslie, who began his career in the Balkans in the 1990s. His 2017 book and multimedia project ‘Disappearing Glasgow’ featured photographs, essays and interviews with people from areas in Glasgow which have dramatically changed in the last ten years including Dalmarnock and the Red Road flats. Niall and Chris discuss the changes that they have seen across the city and the impact this has had on the people that live there.

Find out more about Chris’ new book ‘Balkan Journey’ here: https://www.balkanjourney.com/the-book/ 

This conversation was recorded on 2nd August 2022.

Keep an eye on our website glasgowheritage.org.uk, join us on social media @GlasgowHeritage and follow #IfGlasgowsWallsCouldTalk

This podcast was produced by Inner Ear for Glasgow City Heritage Trust. It is kindly sponsored by the National Trust for Scotland and supported by Tunnock’s.

Creators & Guests

Host

Fay Young

Writer, blogger, editor. Love wild woodland gardens & city jungles, song & dance (also tweet poetry, food and politics) co-editor @sceptical_scot

Host

Niall Murphy

Niall Murphy, who is the Director of Glasgow City Heritage Trust, is a conservation architect and is heavily involved in heritage, conservation and community issues in Glasgow. Niall is also Chair of Govanhill Baths Building Preservation Trust and was previously chair of Pollokshields Heritage, Planning Convener for Pollokshields Community Council and a member of the Glasgow Urban Design Panel. Between 2016 – 2018 he was a member of the Development Management Working Group for the Scottish Government’s Planning Review. Niall regularly lectures or does walking tours on architecture, heritage and urban design issues. Niall has won the Glasgow Doors Open Day Excellence Award for Outstanding Talk (2023) and for Inspiring City Tour (2017), the Glasgow Doors Open Day Above and Beyond Award (2014), the Sir Robert Lorimer Award for Sketching (1996) and, in addition to nominations for Saltire Awards and GIA Awards was nominated for the Scottish Civic Trust’s My Place Award for Civic Champion in 2015.

Producer

Anny Deery

TV Producer. Retrained Massage Therapist @glasgowholistic. Live in Glasgow. Mother of a 8 yo + three year old.

Editor

Katharine Neil

What is If Glasgow’s Walls Could Talk?

A podcast by Glasgow City Heritage Trust which focuses on the relationships, stories and shared memories that exist between Glasgow’s historic buildings and the city's communities. Presented by Glasgow City Heritage Trust’s Director Niall Murphy and journalist Fay Young, this series features guests discussing with Niall and Fay a specific area, type of building or aspect of Glasgow’s heritage, not only from a historical and architectural point of view, but also from the perspective of the community; drawing on the guests’ personal experiences, thoughts, knowledge and memories.

Neil Murphy (00:00:10):
Hello everyone, I'm Neil Murphy. Welcome to If Glasgow's Walls Could Talk, a podcast by Glasgow City Heritage Trust about the stories and relationships between historic buildings and people in Glasgow. Every building and every street has a story to tell, and the purpose of this podcast series is to explore stories in all kinds of places, to find out what they say about the lives of people in and around them.

(00:00:34):
If the walls could talk, what would they say? But what if there are no walls? What if the buildings have disappeared? In this episode we ask, who tells the stories when homes are demolished and communities are torn apart? When whole neighbourhoods become piles of rubble, where do people's memories go? Today we are delighted to be meeting the BAFTA Scotland Young Talent award-winning photographer and filmmaker, Chris Leslie.

(00:01:02):
His remarkable work over the last 25 years provides thought-provoking answers to such questions. From war torn Sarajevo to the heart and soul of Glasgow, he has painstakingly documented what it is like to live on the frontline between demolition and regeneration. His images are powerful, often hauntingly bleak, but also often startlingly beautiful. Yet, as he explains, he's not had to take pretty pictures. His work he says is perhaps 20% photography, 80% research, walking, talking, listening, and looking.

(00:01:37):
Indeed, he often starts without the camera at all, and this story is not about him. Always he is determined that the story should be told by the voices of the people whose real lives were lived in these demolished buildings. So, it's Glasgow voices and he explains why he believes they must be heard. Okay, Chris, so how did it all begin? Can you tell us what you were doing in Sarajevo in 1996, and why you were there? And had you even held a camera before?

Chris Leslie (00:02:09):
So, going back to 1996, I was a psychology with politics graduate from Glasgow Caledonian University. So, I wasn't doing photography or studying photography.

Neil Murphy (00:02:21):
Right, okay.

Chris Leslie (00:02:22):
And then I think that most people, they kind of watched the wars in former Yugoslavia from a kind of distance on TV, nightly news reports and stuff. And it was fairly brutal but I couldn't understand any of it, and I kind of tuned in and scratched my head, and then tuned out because these wars happening in former Yugoslavia were a distant universe for a guy, from Airdre. So...

Neil Murphy (00:02:48):
Sure.

Chris Leslie (00:02:48):
But yeah, I ended up writing my... Well, I did do a thesis as part of my degree, and I kind of chose to look at former Yugoslavia from a psychological political perspective about the nationalism and ethnic cleansing. And yeah, basically, that just started this obsession with the Balkans, sometimes an unhealthy obsession.

Neil Murphy (00:03:12):
Uh-huh.

Chris Leslie (00:03:12):
Obviously, I was really keen to get there. So, really keen to get there, but didn't want to go and kind of... Didn't want to go during the war, couldn't go during the war, and wanted to go after the war after I had graduated. At the same time, the wars were over and it was a lot of kind of peace building projects. So, I tried to, okay? I volunteer, I wanted to volunteer in the region.

(00:03:33):
So the idea was to, "How do I do that?" And yeah, I actually... This is the days just before the internet, but I had to fax a CV to some German NGO organisation, and they matched you up with these small voluntary projects throughout the world and you could specify what reason. But anyway, so the long story was that I had to do a CV, and it's your first CV. And anyone who's done a CV, their first CV realises it's a very traumatic thing you do, because you're getting nothing to say.

Neil Murphy (00:04:08):
Oh, tell me about it.

Chris Leslie (00:04:08):
Particularly the skills of interest. It was like... It was half a page, it was blank, and I put it in photography and said, "Yeah, I quite like the idea of the photography, and it's quite cool." And then, yeah, so faxed the CV off, and then a few months later they come back and said, "We have this project in a small town called Pakrac in Croatia." A small kind of rural town, and a volunteer project where they like to come and work there and live there for three or four months.

(00:04:37):
And yeah, one of the... It was a social reconstruction project doing a lot of different projects. But one of the projects was, "Can you teach children photography? We have a small school here and we work with Serb kids and Croat kids, and it's a kind of integration project." And I said, "Yeah, of course, that's easy." And I then had three months sitting in a dark room to try to hold up a camera, all of these things. So, totally I winged myself out. Winged it.

Neil Murphy (00:05:04):
Yeah.

Chris Leslie (00:05:06):
And totally kind of yanked myself into photography. So yeah, it was a big fat lie on the CV basically.

Neil Murphy (00:05:14):
So, you hadn't even been in a dark room before?

Chris Leslie (00:05:16):
No. Well, I'd learned at Airdrie, and I joined the amateur photography group.

Neil Murphy (00:05:20):
Right.

Chris Leslie (00:05:22):
Where a lot of men who were taking pictures of these Swans and developing them, and you kind of waited outside the cupboard for a long time to get to.

Neil Murphy (00:05:28):
Yeah, yeah. Yep.

Chris Leslie (00:05:29):
To develop your work, but it was perfect because I had no idea. Once I'd learned that and I bought lots of books from Oxfam and was a photographer, I then spent four months living in a small kind of destroyed town.

Neil Murphy (00:05:46):
Mm-hmm.

Chris Leslie (00:05:46):
Working on social reconstruction projects, and unfortunately the photography project never took off really, because there was no supplies. And in the end the project was kind of falling apart anyway, but I kind of then decided to go back to Sarajevo, and I then kind of set up my own Sarajevo camera kids project. And that's what I've done for the next three years, every summer.

Neil Murphy (00:06:08):
Right, fantastic.

Chris Leslie (00:06:09):
All of this pretty much, also in avoidance of getting a real job I guess, and social sciences degrees are great for that. I'm grateful for that if you want to, to be honest. Yeah, but just for me it was just that time, it was just that time to absorb things. It was really special for me, the Balkans, because I wasn't a photographer and there was no pressure to capture anything, and that's kind of key as well.

Neil Murphy (00:06:34):
Yeah. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chris Leslie (00:06:34):
Yeah.

Neil Murphy (00:06:36):
Yep. Were you then taking photographs at that time? Were you recording what you were seeing out there, in the aftermath of the war?

Chris Leslie (00:06:42):
I took a few, yeah, I took a few photos. I mean, everything was heavily destroyed. It was a very surreal experience.

Neil Murphy (00:06:50):
I can imagine.

Chris Leslie (00:06:51):
Pakrac It's a small town, because Lebanon was 80, 90% destroyed. So...

Neil Murphy (00:06:52):
Right.

Chris Leslie (00:07:00):
The war was over and there was no conflict for our stuff, but everything was heavily destroyed, and the time was divided, and there was a lot of stress. And obviously peace time brings its own kind of issues, and then going into, Sarajevo was, Sarajevo was a city like Glasgow heavily, heavily destroyed.

Neil Murphy (00:07:16):
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Chris Leslie (00:07:16):
Bombarded encircled for almost four years.

Neil Murphy (00:07:18):
Yeah.

Chris Leslie (00:07:20):
And completely kind of... Right, so it was very surreal, but I had the camera but I took a few photographs, but they weren't very good and I just kind of left them. And it wasn't about photography, it was about the experience for me.

Neil Murphy (00:07:33):
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Chris Leslie (00:07:34):
And my reason for being there was to teach these kids. And so, I really wasn't interested at all, and I took a few photographs but none of them were that good I think. Or I didn't have the pressure of capturing images, it's been such an important time for me I guess, because as soon as you start working professionally you're always taking pictures. It's impossible not to.

Neil Murphy (00:07:59):
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, but it's kind of a key formational stage in your career.

Chris Leslie (00:08:05):
Yes.

Neil Murphy (00:08:05):
And you as a person as well, that must have been a massive influence on you.

Chris Leslie (00:08:09):
Yep. Yeah, definitely, definitely when it comes around to moving into Glasgow and living in the East End.

Neil Murphy (00:08:14):
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Chris Leslie (00:08:14):
And then starting to see a lot of frontline areas almost. And this is the connection between the Balkans, kind of started to slowly kind of steep into my own work and when I was going to work there.

Neil Murphy (00:08:30):
Yeah, I can imagine. I mean, obviously it's... That was from warfare, whereas what was happening in Glasgow was planned.

Chris Leslie (00:08:42):
Yeah, yeah.

Neil Murphy (00:08:43):
In a sense, but it was the same kind of psychological impact on a population, the destruction of that meaning that a place gives you and is wiped out and obliterated. How do you as a population recover from that?

Chris Leslie (00:09:01):
Yeah. I mean, listen, there's an obvious... Right from there, you see there's obvious differences between what happened in the Balkans and what happened in Glasgow. Or let's say Sarajevo as an example in terms of a city. In terms of a city, sorry.

Neil Murphy (00:09:14):
Mm-hmm.

Chris Leslie (00:09:15):
The human suffering can't be underestimated in terms of what happened in Bosnia. This was a deliberate kind of warfare campaign.

Neil Murphy (00:09:23):
Yeah.

Chris Leslie (00:09:23):
Ethnic cleansing and genocide. So, I have to always... Have to call it out, but as an artist and as a photographer and living in the East end... And I started this kind of documentation at Glasgow around the time when we awarded the Commonwealth Games back in 2007, and how that was going to transform the city.

Neil Murphy (00:09:45):
Right.

Chris Leslie (00:09:46):
And there was usually... There was obvious similarities in terms of the physical landscape, in terms of the destroyed or neglected, particularly Dalmarnock. I lived around the corner from Dalmarnock, and it was just frontline Sarajevo. There was a block around Kenard and Lee Street, Victorian red sandstone buildings that had been left to rot for 10 years. And all the windows were smashed, half the buildings had gone because they'd been set on fire. It was just absolutely mental. And these, they then realised there's lots of areas around the city like that.

Neil Murphy (00:10:23):
Yes. Yep.

Chris Leslie (00:10:24):
And then you started to see these partially demolished high-rise flats as well that were slowly being brought down by long reach cranes with these huge steel teeth on the end of it, slowly and inevitably, or they would be blown up overnight. It was just really kind of intense, an intense assault I would say. And that's what kind of started to kind of make this connection with my time in the Balkans and what's happening in Glasgow.

Neil Murphy (00:10:52):
That kind of brings us onto question two, which is... We're kind of just moving forward a little in time to where you are kind of at that point. And this is kind of from where you were in Sarajevo to kind of coming up to things like Red Road and Glasgow, and by 2010 you'd graduated with a master's in distinction in documentary photography. And for your final project you'd chosen to focus on what was happening with Glasgow's high-rise flats. And it's that same kind of... What we were discussing, that kind of link between the two in terms of the impact of what happens to a city and the meaning of a sense of place.

Chris Leslie (00:11:35):
I think the first place that caught my eye around 2008 when I started my master's was the Oatlands, was the old Oatlands, which kind of was across from where I was living in Bridgeton. And that was the first kick, because that was an area that had been emptied about 10 years ago, and it has been partially slowly destroyed to make way for the M74 extension at that time. So yeah, and that resembled... That took me back to Pakrac, that small town in Pakrac.

Neil Murphy (00:12:02):
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Chris Leslie (00:12:03):
There was roads leading into it, they'd all been ethnically cleansed and all the families had been... So, quite horrific ways of leaving your home, but people left lots of belongings behind because it was a real hurry, there was a real rush, there was a real uncertainty. And that was the thing with Oatlands.

Neil Murphy (00:12:17):
Mm-hmm.

Chris Leslie (00:12:18):
Here was loads of stuff lying around and I was coming back with bin bags, full of stuff, and starting this kind of. Trying to track down residents from things that had been left behind and stuff. So that kind of caught my eye, and I guess in terms of my imagination, it was like...

Neil Murphy (00:12:33):
Right.

Chris Leslie (00:12:33):
The buildings, and in the particular the high-rise buildings, are either on route to be demolished or partially demolished. The joint photograph that already came out, dystopian, great, big, massive structures. But what was important, what I didn't kind of grasp is the action scale of it.

Neil Murphy (00:12:51):
Mm-hmm.

Chris Leslie (00:12:51):
Because Glasgow was knocking down these high-rise flats at such a ferocious pace. Between 2007 to 2016 the city lost about 35% of its high-rise housing stock

Neil Murphy (00:13:05):
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Chris Leslie (00:13:06):
That's massive, kind of a small part. People reminisce about slum clearances and stuff, but this was happening in a short, short period of time.

Neil Murphy (00:13:15):
Mm-hmm. I totally understand where you're coming from there. One of the things, this is my hidden past, I was one of the architects for Elphinstone Place in Glasgow, which is going to be this 39th story tower block that was going to be on the site, which is now Scottish Power next to the M8 on St. Vincent Street, which is going to be Scotland's tallest building. And so, as part of that, we had to do kind of a whole impact assessment of what the impact of this was going to be on Glasgow's skyline.

(00:13:47):
And so, we had to go and do kind of distance shots across the city that could show how the building would be dropped into that context. And you could see the whole skyline of the city, and you could see the roller tower block, and this was at that time, this was 2004 or 2005. And that was a really interesting experience because you got to realise just how it wasn't like... I mean, Glasgow, when you're in the city centre and you're moving around the city centre, you're very conscious of it being a grid city and having this very American feel to it.

(00:14:20):
But then when you go back out to the outskirts and you're looking back in at that time, you're really conscious. There was no kind of classic pattern of a traditional central business district kind of thing with the tall buildings being clustered there. It wasn't like that at all in Glasgow, it was these kind of random outcrops of tall to very tall buildings scattered around the city with no kind of clear pattern to what was going on.

(00:14:45):
And when you look at that now as the clearance of it, it's pretty phenomenal. It has gone through a massive change, and at one point Glasgow in Europe was slightly... It was right up there with Moscow in terms of the numbers of 20 plus story blocks of flats around the city. But I think if you reevaluated that now, it would be completely different because so many of them have gone.

Chris Leslie (00:15:13):
Yeah, yeah, and there was so many that I didn't even get a chance to document. It became a full-time job to keep up.

Neil Murphy (00:15:20):
Yep. Yeah, I can imagine.

Chris Leslie (00:15:23):
And I wasn't there. So, I started this as my master's project and I finished my master's in 2010, but I just continued documenting it. But I had no client, I had no commission, I got some funding from Creative Scotland towards the publication and to kind of collaborate some of the work.

Neil Murphy (00:15:41):
Mm-hmm.

Chris Leslie (00:15:42):
But it was pretty much me, myself, and I just continually doing this because I couldn't believe the scale of it. It was buildings that I photographed, the Gorbals that I didn't even document properly. I acknowledge that I documented them because I think any stories from residents and stuff, I just didn't have the time because Red Road was a massive sighthill was massive.

Neil Murphy (00:16:03):
Sure.

Chris Leslie (00:16:03):
But yeah, it was a massive change in... And they say it, but what got me is that nobody really cared about that, because this is all progress and this is all good for the city of course. So, and I just was like, "Where are the other voices here? Where are the residents?" With the headlines of Evening Times and all that kind of stuff.

Neil Murphy (00:16:26):
Mm-hmm.

Chris Leslie (00:16:26):
And that's what kind of inspired me.

Neil Murphy (00:16:30):
Yeah, that to me has been what's really been very interesting about your work, is being able to capture that. And it's the kind of thing that really came to the foreign public discussion in advance of the Commonwealth Games and the proposal to demolish Red Road on the Commonwealth Games as part of the opening ceremony. Which was just astonishing because it was in such bad taste, because those were people's homes and they're people's memories.

(00:16:51):
And there's this great quote from here of a voice from Red Road, that it's not the actual building itself, but it's all your memories. "That was where I was brought up and that's where I was made." And that's true, and doing something that's an act of violence that would perform, be shown to the world, the Glasgow thing of active violence against itself. I just thought that was completely bizarre and I'm so glad they dropped it, it was totally inappropriate.

Chris Leslie (00:17:20):
Yeah. I think, I'll tell you, I had a few kind of fall-outs. Not fall-outs, or heated discussions in pubs, because I wanted them to do that. I wanted them to blow up right in in front of this audience of about a billion people.

Neil Murphy (00:17:29):
Really?

Chris Leslie (00:17:32):
Because you know what? From that audience of a billion people, let me think, Glasgow, it would have generated a discussion about it. Because the point was there was not even a discussion, there was some MSPs coming out and saying, "Oh, these flats should be used for refugees. Isn't it terrible?" The 180 block which I documented was full of refugees.

Neil Murphy (00:17:47):
Yeah.

Chris Leslie (00:17:48):
And the other ones were stripped back to their skeletal state years ago. So there was no way back for them, and all of a sudden they had this period in the limelight. Which then kind of faded away when that demolition didn't happen. But yeah, I just thought, "Let's have a dialogue about it, let's go. Is blowing up failed social housing a good thing?" Because it just felt... Going to Glasgow, there was no alternative. What was the alternative at that point? These flats had been stripped back and emptied of residents for years.

Neil Murphy (00:18:19):
Yeah.

Chris Leslie (00:18:20):
They were never just a blot in the landscape. All they knew were the wee pockets of housing that were built across the road from it, they were continually looking at a skeleton of a building for years.

Neil Murphy (00:18:30):
Yeah.

Chris Leslie (00:18:30):
So that's the thing, what can you do about it?

Neil Murphy (00:18:32):
Yes. Yeah, yeah. Yep, definitely.

Chris Leslie (00:18:32):
I mean, yeah. As we both know, in the end that didn't happen.

Neil Murphy (00:18:38):
I get all of that, but I don't know, because I don't come from Glasgow. I was brought up in the far East, and to me, something like that, it was like the message that was being sent was that we're so affluent and careless that there are millions of people throughout the commonwealth who are living below the breadline and in poverty. And here we are in the affluent West, we could just kind of... Well, yeah, it was a failed housing experiment.

Chris Leslie (00:19:06):
Yeah. Yeah, of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Neil Murphy (00:19:07):
Just blew it up for a bit of entertainment. And...

Chris Leslie (00:19:10):
But it was seen as progress. So that's the idea, it's how deeply entrenched the hatred of high-rise buildings were, and the idea that because... It was a rebirth, that was what the city council and the city fathers, the Commonwealth Games organisers,

Neil Murphy (00:19:23):
Yeah.

Chris Leslie (00:19:24):
The rebirth of a city, because we could talk all day, but that's the idea of you bring down the building. And you take away all the social problems that are connected with that building in that area, because that's causing all these problems.

Neil Murphy (00:19:37):
Yes.

Chris Leslie (00:19:38):
And so, they resist this kind of mindset that's always existed in Glasgow. It's just, "Let's just clear the buildings." And you clear all the social problems and you rebirth it, which is bollocks.

Neil Murphy (00:19:51):
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's like you don't learn any lessons. I mean, went through all of this with the city improvement trust, and 1866 onwards with the clearances all around where I am at the moment in the heart of the merchant city and right next door to Trongate. All this area is completely flattened, and then it was only kind of the noble poor who were allowed back into these more prestigious tenements, because it was all protecting this image of Glasgow.

(00:20:21):
And everybody else was like, "Oh, I'm sorry, you can't get back in, you toddle off to Gorbals." And hence all the overcrowding in the Gorbals, because all it did was shift the problem from one place to another and it's not actually solving the problem.

Chris Leslie (00:20:35):
Yeah.

Neil Murphy (00:20:35):
And it's not actually... Some people got better housing conditions out of that, a lot of people ended up in worse housing conditions as a consequence. And that's, it's kind of Glasgow's... That's a problem that's been with us all the way because you just can't keep up with the extent of the problem.

Chris Leslie (00:20:49):
Yeah, definitely.

Neil Murphy (00:20:52):
So, going back to Red Road, this obviously... It was a really proud symbol for Glasgow that we had the tallest council flats in Western Europe. What was it like documenting their dying years?

Chris Leslie (00:21:09):
Yeah, it was a long project I think, documenting it. I was invited in to do some documentation, it was a group of artists invited in to document Red Road, because the city council and the GHA, Glasgow House Association, realised I guess the scale of what was happening in the city. So, Red Road flats would be the poster girl if you like. Yeah? For a better word, lack of a better word.

Neil Murphy (00:21:33):
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Chris Leslie (00:21:36):
To kind of facilitate all these changes, and have stories and lots of projects for the young people that are left in the flats or predominantly younger asylum seeker children, some kind of documentation and stuff. So it was a very good project to get invited into, but it was very controlled if you like, in terms of what stories you could tell. No mention of asbestos, no mention of... I mean, at that time as well, there was the tragic incident of the asylum seekers who jumped off one of the buildings.

Neil Murphy (00:22:08):
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah, it was horrible.

Chris Leslie (00:22:09):
And so, it's just lots of things going on, so I just felt to me it wasn't getting the real story, but it got accessed. It was a long project and it was myself and a few other artists involved in it, and it took a long time. It took a long time for that building to be deemed unfit for habitation until it was actually demolished. It was like 2007, finally being... Or maybe, probably even earlier, I just started working there in 2007, so there was a kind of real connection with it.

(00:22:43):
For me, it was this idea of this kind of... What was the role of the photographer here and what I was doing, because I realised I'll tick the boxes for the Red Road project it was called, but I knew I had other stuff I wanted to document. And I guess it was that tension between doing some kind of fine art photography of interiors, of partially demolished buildings and views at the window. Or was it something bigger? Was this a social history project and it wasn't about my photography?

(00:23:14):
So there was that, that kind of started to develop through that time period of Red Road as well. And because that became more important than my style of photography or the images I was taking, and without the residents' voices, the pictures to me were nothing really. I think it was good because I had the time to do it, because it was such a long period of documentation as well, going back and forth, and we just thought they would last forever. They would always be there even in a skeletal state.

Neil Murphy (00:23:49):
Yes.

Chris Leslie (00:23:49):
So, there was no... Yeah, I admit that for that work.

Neil Murphy (00:23:55):
Sure. When you're capturing those images, obviously you are using camera equipment, et cetera, to kind of record both those images and the voices. Can you tell us more about the technical aspects of it? Because I'm sure some of our listeners will be interested in that thing. What are your favourite lenses? Do you have any unusual kit or techniques as part of your work? Do you still have that old Canon camera?

Chris Leslie (00:24:20):
Yeah, I mean, I think I started because I was doing my master's, I saw a lot of work around the site. How we are here with the 6x6 film camera, and I'd done a few portraits and kind of shots, but it was quite a slow process that idea. And it wasn't allowing me to capture as much as I wanted, so I then jumped to digital SLR shooting, and the SLR's changed at that time, but digital SLRs that you could then shoot HD video with the same.

Neil Murphy (00:24:50):
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Chris Leslie (00:24:50):
So that was a transformation thing.

Neil Murphy (00:24:51):
Yep.

Chris Leslie (00:24:52):
Because you could then shoot HD video, as well as... Rather than this 6x6 medium format film. So, I kind of just... I ran with that, and there was no particular lens, there was no particular... It was a kind of standard Zoom lens that I used. I then got an audio recorder to help record, to record audio interviews with the residents.

(00:25:13):
Occasionally video, but mainly audio, and I wanted to capture the audios in high quality as I could. It wasn't never about a specific lens or look, because I needed kind of flexibility to capture everything, and time was tight because the buildings were disappearing around me. It was almost like a supermarket sweep, I was getting and capturing as much as I could. And digital was great, it's great for that, and I've still got a half life full of...

Neil Murphy (00:25:38):
Sure. Yeah, yeah.

Chris Leslie (00:25:39):
Thousands of photographs. So yeah, it was... And again, that's why when you look, the book that came out, Disappear in Glasgow was a very wide-ranging style of photography with different lenses.

Neil Murphy (00:25:55):
Mm-hmm.

Chris Leslie (00:25:55):
And it was because it was just... And it was over eight years as well, so it was like things changed, technology changed and stuff, but it was a bit. Capturing it as fast as I could.

Neil Murphy (00:26:03):
Sure.

Chris Leslie (00:26:03):
It was never about the aesthetics of the camera then or the lens.

Neil Murphy (00:26:07):
Sure, absolutely, and with regards to capturing stuff and the audio aspect of it, just wanted to say that your stories, those recordings that you made as part of Disappear in Glasgow, highly recommend our listeners do actually listen to these and that we'll have links that we can give at the end of this conversation. And just having heard them that these are really moving stories and the stories of people's loss, loss of people's homes and memories of place.

(00:26:41):
And so, and this is all part of... When we begin to look at this as a society, we realised that the actual impact... And this is something I'm very interested in, because it's stuff that Harry Burns talks about with the kind of open health aspect of Glasgow, and how much things like the urban clearances in Glasgow damaged the psyche of the city. And people's kind of...

(00:27:03):
Because of their loss of sense of place within the city, so I'm very interested about stuff like that, but I wanted to know about how the impact of the demolition was for you personally, and how did you feel recording that final destruction of Red Road?

Chris Leslie (00:27:19):
Yeah, I think I remember that the last day we spoke earlier about the idea of the flats maybe blown up as part of the Commonwealth Games up in the city that didn't happen. So October 2015, this was the day the rest of the flats would be demolished, and yeah, I'd photographed a few. You remember Red Road came down in stages as well, so this was the third stage.

(00:27:43):
And you get 200 people out in their pyjamas for the north of the city, taking pictures with their phone, and the building comes down and everybody goes. But that, to blow up the remaining six or seven buildings was a big event. So there was lots of people in the street, and I remember just waiting all day in the press area waiting because I was filming it for the documentary I was doing, as well as shooting it.

Neil Murphy (00:28:05):
Right.

Chris Leslie (00:28:05):
But yeah, it was just... I don't know, maybe they had... I always joked that they had a sale by date on all the explosives they had and then they had to blow up everything in a year. But yeah, it was a relief when it came down, because it was almost like the end of a chapter for me at the end of this kind of project.

Neil Murphy (00:28:26):
Yeah.

Chris Leslie (00:28:26):
Because this is where they started to kind of wind down, and the Sighthill was... There's still stuff going on the Sighthill, but Red Road was a big project, so it felt like a kind of full stop, maybe a comma, I don't know, I don't know what's the best way to explain it. But then obviously when the dust settles and there's two buildings, half buildings left, that was just brilliant.

Neil Murphy (00:28:51):
Yeah. Yes, to go forward.

Chris Leslie (00:28:54):
Because it was just us, they were going to hang around for a wee bit more.

Neil Murphy (00:28:54):
It's very photogenic.

Chris Leslie (00:28:54):
Yeah, I know, for a wee bit more just kind of watch the demolition, but not disappearing that easy. And then the next day I was up again, that morning I was up shooting those, shooting the buildings. That there was no... There was very little security, there was... I think they were all in a meeting, trying to work it out.

Neil Murphy (00:29:06):
Mm-hmm.

Chris Leslie (00:29:09):
How to demolish all your buildings, and I remember myself and a few other photographers, because all the press had left the day before buildings were down. But the next morning it was like they're still there, and it was... The most amazing photographs were just walking around, and people from the area walking around, and right up close to the buildings. The buildings are like the Leaning Tower of Pisa, and yes, it was almost as if I couldn't let go of Red Road. Red Road was still kind of hanging around for a wee bit longer.

Neil Murphy (00:29:34):
Sure.

Chris Leslie (00:29:34):
So, that was quite interesting.

Neil Murphy (00:29:34):
Yes.

Chris Leslie (00:29:35):
Yep.

Neil Murphy (00:29:37):
Yes, yeah, absolutely. Okay, your book Disappearing in Glasgow, which documents this multimedia project over the course of the eight years that you're working on. It was published in 2017, then it too disappears and there's a whole kind of story about that, but can you explain what happened and talk more generally about the impact or influence of photographs on the open landscape?

Chris Leslie (00:30:02):
Yeah, I guess it was just for the book. So, Disappearing in Glasgow as a project always existed online in terms of the short film. So, the short films were done way before the book, and it'd never been about doing a book. It was never... I started this project and said, "I'm going to do a book." Because it would have been a very different approach we would have had.

(00:30:18):
So it was just the idea of when we had discussions, we published this around 2016, and they said, "Yeah, we'd like to do something." And that was like, "Wow, we're getting published." And I brought in some really good architects and academics to write short essays on the different areas and areas that they have the knowledge of, but also tell all the resident stories. So it was more than a photo book. It was more than just...

Neil Murphy (00:30:45):
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Chris Leslie (00:30:46):
It was quite a substantial kind of document, telling what's happened in those times. But yeah, so it was published, they sold two editions and it was great in downloads, and tours, and the done Edinburgh book festival and Aye Write and all that.

Neil Murphy (00:31:04):
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Chris Leslie (00:31:04):
And then obviously, they send you a royalty statement saying this is how much you're getting. You're like, "Oh, that's quite exciting." You know, you could get money, and then it went into liquidation and there was no money. And the book disappeared because it didn't always sold, and then became a quite... To me, quite a toxic project. Not because, "Oh, I didn't get the money." But just because it felt like eight years of my work that I handed to someone else and they botched it.

Neil Murphy (00:31:27):
Yeah, yep.

Chris Leslie (00:31:30):
And they kind of didn't look after it, and it was like giving your child to someone to look after. So anyway, the book's gone, and the book's... The positive thing about it is the book's very rare now. People contact me daily, talking about, "Have you got books, anybody?" And they've gone, and there's a few copies out there going at quite a crazy price. So, but again, it was never about that. The project was to be accessible and it was to be accessible from people who I had spoken to and interviewed in the residents.

(00:31:59):
But citywide, it wasn't about having the book. So everything's on disappearing-glasgow.com as a website, and that was always the key aspect to it. And that's still there, that'll be there for a wee while longer so people can access the short films there. But I guess to me, in terms of photographing the Urba landscape and stuff like that.

(00:32:20):
As I've said, the book, I've showed it to some photographers and they kind of scratch their head because there's so many different styles and variety and approaches. But most photo books, we get a book and it's the one consistent style all the way through it, and that kind of fine art approach to it and stuff. But as I explained earlier, to me it was about social history, it was more important.

Neil Murphy (00:32:43):
Yeah.

Chris Leslie (00:32:44):
So, that's why it's... Maybe in some ways it's not a photography book for all the purists out there, because it's such a range of styles. And maybe not great images, but the images relate to the text and what's been kind of said in the stories by the residents and stuff.

Neil Murphy (00:33:01):
Sure, absolutely. I suppose it kind of falls into that kind of Glasgow tradition where you've got Thomas Annan. And, I mean, obviously he doesn't interview all the people that he's seeing, but you know that fantastic set of photographs.

Chris Leslie (00:33:13):
Yeah.

Neil Murphy (00:33:13):
Recording this kind of unwinding of a great mediaeval city and its replacement with something completely different. It's very similar to what you were doing, just the best part of a century and half later.

Chris Leslie (00:33:24):
Yeah, and I guess you just use the technology that you've got to do that, that's available to you at the time.

Neil Murphy (00:33:30):
Yeah, yes.

Chris Leslie (00:33:33):
I'm fairly... All these are always very heavy, those images to Thomas Annan. How did you answer that. Absolutely outstanding, and at the same time you're shooting multimedia, shooting HD video, shooting with drone, shooting me. So, I'm sure he might have been quite envious of what we can capture these days.

Neil Murphy (00:33:48):
I bet, I bet, I bet you always. The thing that fascinates me about Thomas Annan is that when you actually really think about what a city is like, it's not just the pretty images, you actually have to think about all the other stuff associated with the city. So the smells, the noise, all of that.

(00:34:05):
So, when he was actually going into some of these wynds and back lanes, they must have stunk to high heaven and he would have to spend ages setting up all his kit to take those photographs and kind of put up with all these people going, "What you doing big man?" Kind of thing at the time.

Chris Leslie (00:34:22):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Neil Murphy (00:34:22):
And it would have been... Must have been really, really interesting and fascinating, and very similar to what you'd been up to. Kind of recording this snapshot in time before it all disappears.

Chris Leslie (00:34:32):
Yeah, yeah. I mean, there was... That, I think the idea as well, running around any city with a camera is... You're always asking for trouble, you're certainly asking for questions. "What are you doing? What are you filming for?

Neil Murphy (00:34:43):
Yes. Yep, yep, yep, get on board.

Chris Leslie (00:34:51):
Yeah, and with discipline, with that whole project, Disappearing in Glasgow, I didn't really... There was nothing that I encountered that was kind of similar to that. I think there was a thing about gaining people's trust as well. People had began to know who I was in these kind of communities because I'd spent so much time documenting. But also, what was key in many ways is for a lot of the places I went to put it around Dalmarnock, I didn't take the camera initially. I just arrived and had a chat with people. It just felt rude, it just felt like, "Need to take a picture." And then...

Neil Murphy (00:35:22):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Chris Leslie (00:35:24):
And that was... It was the case where one of the ladies documented Margaret, Jaconelli, who was living in Dalmarnock at the time of the Commonwealth Games.

Neil Murphy (00:35:30):
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Chris Leslie (00:35:31):
And that was quite an emotional kind of hard story to document. Eventually she was forcibly evicted from her house and stuff. And I remember meeting her photographing these same Victorian red sandstone tenements I was talking about, which I thought were empty back in 2008. And I didn't even notice there net curtains and wee ornaments that weren't in the windows. And she was shouting out the window to me, and she started speaking to me, and then we sat and spoke for hours. And she talked to me, having a bit of her story, and if I immediately got the camera out it would have broken that conversation.

Neil Murphy (00:36:03):
Absolutely. Yeah, definitely. No, there were two points I was going to sort of come back to you there on. Which was... This is in a previous life that's back to 2006, 2007. This is with a firm of architects who I was working for at the time, Austin-Smith:Lord. We did a whole kind of survey of that area as part of trying to get Bridgeton Cross turned into a conservation area, and trying to show how you could regenerate the area, and it was kind of a master plan for the area.

(00:36:31):
So we were out scouting the whole area and it was then you realised the respect you had to treat people with, particularly some of the traveller settlements that you had to be really careful with. If anyone saw you with a camera you were an automatic threat. And so, you had to make sure that you asked for permission and you treated people with respect.

Chris Leslie (00:36:49):
Yeah.

Neil Murphy (00:36:49):
First of all, before embarking on anything like that.

Chris Leslie (00:36:52):
Yeah.

Neil Murphy (00:36:52):
And so, it was acutely kind of conscious of all of that. And the second thing, this is more personal stuff. My partner, my other half was brought up in a tenement on the corner of... It's just up from the Kinning Park complex. There's a tenement right next door just to the south of the Kinning Park complex. Do you know where I am?

Chris Leslie (00:37:12):
Vaguely, vaguely.

Neil Murphy (00:37:13):
Kind of? This is in Kenning Park, right next to the subway station. He was in the opposite tenement from that, which is now under the M8. And so, he kind of was brought up, a whole kind of... Is it McClellan Street that was the longest street in Glasgow? And it's just this ruthless line of tenements that just keeps going and is completely astonishing. Of course none of that exists anymore because it completely disappeared, and the way he talks about all of that was actually... This was a really fantastic area, and how they were... They could all kind of play in the streets, and people were safe, and they had a fantastic park right next door. And then all of this kind of just disappears, and he's got photographs of what the area was like after everyone had moved out of it and how haunting it was.

(00:38:02):
And it would have been exactly the same as you were experiencing pre Commonwealth Games, and you're thinking, "Didn't we learn anything from what happened in the 1970s and the devastation that inflicted on communities then?" And it's quite depressing that we still haven't learned those lessons and quite, quite, quite frustrating that. Anyway, back to where you are on your journey. So, you then went on and produced another book, which was also kind of about... This was an even longer term relationship with a place which was a Balkan journey.

(00:38:38):
So, and all about your experiences out in that part of the world, and how that's kind of a culmination of 24 years worth of work. And you're now doing this again with the invasion of Ukraine, and of course it now looks as though that poll... Obviously, that's a massive issue, and there was an article on The Guardian earlier this year and you wrote about a striking image of hope you captured on your last visit, and I was just wondering if you could tell us about that.

Chris Leslie (00:39:11):
Yeah, I think The Guardian... I'll do some photo essays for The Guardian and stuff. And there was...

Neil Murphy (00:39:16):
Yes.

Chris Leslie (00:39:16):
A series.

Neil Murphy (00:39:16):
It's very good.

Chris Leslie (00:39:18):
My favourite image I think was in these, and that's very hard to choose. But yeah, just to clarify, it was in... This is all Bosnia and I haven't entered in Ukraine yet. But yeah, I went to document Sarajevo 20 years after the peace agreement had been signed in that city that brought an end to the four years of war and siege. And going back to my first time then, when I had this camera and shooting black n white film, and not very... It wasn't very interesting, the photographs weren't very good. Now the city's been rebuilt completely. Now, so that's been... The black and white pictures I took 20 years ago.

Neil Murphy (00:39:58):
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Chris Leslie (00:39:59):
Suddenly they were quite interesting. So, I was going back 20 years in a document.

Neil Murphy (00:40:04):
Yeah, very much.

Chris Leslie (00:40:06):
Or whatever, how the people were marking this event and what was happening in the city. And not much was happening because life kind of moves on. The city's been rebuilt, people move on, people have things to do with their lives. Bosnia in particular don't want to dwell on a lot of anniversaries, because certainly with the younger people, they want to kind of look forward as well.

Neil Murphy (00:40:25):
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Chris Leslie (00:40:25):
There's certain events around the genocide Srebrenica and stuff that require to be marked and understood and remembered. But there's also a lot of young people who just want to kind of move forward, they can't have the war dragging them there, setting their country back. So, there was just a photograph I was taking, in a landscape picture of Sarajevo, and it's from an area called Tabia, which is an old fort and there's a viewpoint over the city where you get to see the whole city.

Neil Murphy (00:40:53):
Mm-hmm.

Chris Leslie (00:40:54):
And then this couple kind of came and walked in my shot and I was raging. And then they just sat and did a grasp, they grasped each other and they looked over at the side, and it was like, "Bang, there you go." They ruined my picture, but maybe it's all right. But I think the image was represented, Sarajevo gets dark. A name that evokes a lot of things about war and about destruction, and about division, and ethnic cleansing, and just everything that was wrong in that war. And this was one moment looking on when the city's being rebuilt, and this idea that cities will kind of come back to life.

(00:41:36):
They slowly rebuild themself back kind of from anything, from destruction from I guess, looking at Glasgow. And what will we keep doing wrong in Glasgow? Things will hopefully get better in Glasgow. The idea of maybe there's lots of new building working on and lots of homes being built across the city. Glasgow is rebuilding, it also requires, as you're pointing on those, we need 200,000 people to move back within the city boundaries.

Neil Murphy (00:42:11):
Yeah, yes. Yeah, absolutely.

Chris Leslie (00:42:11):
To make this a functioning city, to get the taxes to pay for all these things, and all this in infrastructure. People come in and out Glasgow then kind of leave and that's a real problem. Glasgow's attempting to address that, but within new housing and all these kind of things. That was, to make a connection with that image of hope, to have an image of hope for Glasgow.

Neil Murphy (00:42:30):
Yeah, yes.

Chris Leslie (00:42:32):
We need to ensure that we're building proper housing, sustainability, affordable housing, and for families, for all Glasgow regions to actually stay within the city. Because we can't be in this position as well where we get to this level of hope and everything's great in the city, and then forty years later down the line we're knocking down the same buildings that we've just kind of replaced.

Neil Murphy (00:42:56):
Yeah, I know.

Chris Leslie (00:42:57):
It has to change in some ways. Yeah, so that was the slight connection. I'm trying to connect that image of looking over at Sarajevo. And what's this image of hope across Glasgow?

Neil Murphy (00:43:09):
Sure.

Chris Leslie (00:43:09):
I don't really have an image, I've got an idea in my head that a lot of people have.

Neil Murphy (00:43:15):
Yeah, absolutely. Because I mean, to me that's absolutely critical. With Glasgow, Glasgow's challenged, they're challenged by our generation and future generations. Is, "How did you put Humpty together again?"

Chris Leslie (00:43:25):
Yeah.

Neil Murphy (00:43:25):
Because it's been through these kind of... You got the mediaeval city gets wiped out by the Victorians. Well, the Georgians and then the Victorians and then the Edwardians, and you kind of got into war growth. And there's kind of... There is kind of a bit... It's all quite cohesive then, though our area is kind of getting redeveloped so it's a bit more organic, then suddenly you got this huge rupture after the second World War, even though Glasgow comes through the second World War with the exception of Clyde Bank pretty intact. And then you've got this huge rupture where about there was a guy looking at this and reckoned it was about 25 to about 30% of the city, the original kind of Victorian Edwardian city was demolished.

(00:44:09):
And starting again, to me it's the impact of that on people, and it's also... You just can't keep affording it, it's so wasteful to just bulldoze everything and start again without adapting it. And, I mean, I'm interested when you look at places like Amsterdam where they don't have that kind of choice because land is so precious there that they can't afford to let whole chunks of their city just be bulldozed and start again. They have to work with what they've got, and we've kind of got to learn how to do that.

(00:44:41):
And part of what we have to do as a generation is figure out how to heal the city and to create spaces that can be as cherished as what some of these old spaces were. And that's going to be a massive challenge for the city, but hopefully something can arise from the destruction that happened. Talking about destruction and loss, there is a lot of beauty in yours too. And you've been talking about wanting people to stop and look, and does beauty pay a part in any of that?

Chris Leslie (00:45:21):
Yeah, I mean, some of the images of the high-rise buildings that I took, they were never taken to put on a wall or whatever. But when the buildings are stripped and the light's spilling in from every angle and you're looking out, you've got some kind of nice aesthetic images. I remember looking at Sebastian Salgado's work when I was doing my master's, and images of farming and poverty and stuff were often criticised for being too beautiful and therefore insensitive to the subjects.

Neil Murphy (00:45:53):
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Chris Leslie (00:45:54):
He always argued, I think a lot of talks are. You need to view it in your photographs to capture attention I feel like.

Neil Murphy (00:46:01):
Yes.

Chris Leslie (00:46:02):
And particularly now, online photographs now have even less of an appeal because we've all been programmed to view them online like a slot machine, you just swipe, swipe, swipe.

Neil Murphy (00:46:14):
Yeah, yes.

Chris Leslie (00:46:14):
They're looked at for less than a second and then they're gone. So, my aim is to create images that could stop people in their tracks.

Neil Murphy (00:46:22):
Yes.

Chris Leslie (00:46:23):
Even just for a few seconds. So, what is that? Where is that? To question why and who.

Neil Murphy (00:46:30):
Yep.

Chris Leslie (00:46:30):
And that was kind of half the battle for me, if feel like. It was just to create these images. Images that took of underground bingo holes at Red Road flats and stuff, trying. My aim was to get in as deep into the building and from every angle possible to get different pictures, because from the ground level there's only so many ways you can shoot a high-rise flat as well.

(00:46:51):
So, I was really trying to get in the inside to get underground, to tell that whole story and create these images about what you photograph, completely Red Road underground. Why is there a bingo hall under Red Road? And then from the story from there up to Red Road itself, what happened to every body? Red Road, that was a small town of 4,070 people.

Neil Murphy (00:47:17):
Yeah, absolutely. That fascinates me, and this is kind of personal. Again, personal stuff for me. I was brought up in Hong Kong, and so for me that kind of connection... Because it's something I've never really understood about how Glasgow handled high-rises, that because the administration in Hong Kong were able to learn a lot from the things that went wrong here. So they were able to learn the lessons of that. In Hong Kong when I was growing up, and we were probably by that point onto third generation of high-rise, big.

(00:47:53):
And Hong Kong had... With Singapore, they were the biggest social landlords in the world. So, we always get this kind of... It really bugs me when you hear people from the Tory party talking about Hong Kong and Singapore becoming these visions of capitalism that they want to emulate. And you're like, "Well, hold on a minute. Actually..." They've got these massive social housing programmes which are the biggest in the world, and if you actually wanted to do some of that, maybe you should be holding some council housing here.

(00:48:20):
But the point I kind of wanted to make about that was what the people and the planners in Hong Kong completely got, was you can't just build tower blocks in isolation. You have to tie them into the surrounding fabric and you also have to provide all those amenities. And they're obviously trying to do that with Red Road, and the only thing I can suspect was maybe Red Road was too far out of town. But that was absolutely critical to how Hong Kong operated, because they were conscious they had to provide homes over the longer term that people really wanted to live in. And that meant you had to have all of these amenities as part of it. Marketplaces, swimming pools, tennis courts, your pubs.

Chris Leslie (00:49:03):
Yeah.

Neil Murphy (00:49:04):
Clubs, shops, all of those kind of things had to be part of the package, it couldn't be separate. So I remember coming here on a school visit in the kind of... This was to the garden centre, we stopped on route in the Gorbals, and kind of no foot court, Sterling Court. Sterling Court, all of that, and being completely horrified that there were no amenities, there was nothing. And it was like...

Chris Leslie (00:49:29):
Yeah.

Neil Murphy (00:49:29):
"What got missed as part of this programme?" That you can't not have those things, the city doesn't function without it. I thought that was bizarre.

Chris Leslie (00:49:39):
There's been a lot of new housing schemes and stuff in the north of the city, but very few facilities, very few amenities. You drive to your home, it's still very much... Springburn seems to be the place. Yeah, and you go by bus if you don't have a car. Really, there's nothing else there, and I think this was one of the arguments in a lot of the residents who I've spoke to and people around. That there's the population of small towns living in these blocks, and once you... If you don't provide facilities for that, then that's... It's going to fundamentally fail.

Neil Murphy (00:50:17):
Yeah, yep.

Chris Leslie (00:50:20):
So it's about what's in place now.

Neil Murphy (00:50:20):
Billy Connolly's phrase, desserts with Wendy's.

Chris Leslie (00:50:22):
Yeah, yeah. I think I've got the chance to see the new kind of Sighthill area, and there's lots going on in the Sighthill to potentially address some of that. There's a better community facilities being built, and obviously infrastructure and connection by the city centre and stuff. Hopefully things are starting to.

Neil Murphy (00:50:41):
Yeah, yeah, be neutral. I see that too.

Chris Leslie (00:50:42):
Yeah, but then... And it's good, but it's almost like it's simple answers. It's not difficult, it's not rocket science to provide these things. I think it's just all down to the budget and what budgets are available. And who's going to...

Neil Murphy (00:50:56):
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it very much is, and I think in Hong Kong they were lucky because there was a rising tide of the economy. And because the... Again, this is where Hong Kong's very different from the UK. The government earned all the land, and so the government taxes were low because how the government funded itself was it drip fed chunks of land onto the market. And so, developers were always prepared to bid high for the land, and that was what paid for the running of the city. And the great irony about all of this is kind of Glasgow and kind of...

(00:51:31):
Not quite now because the high-rise is coming back, but in places like Manchester where ironically it's mainly pitched at Chinese investors. And the great irony is like, Hong Kong learns the lesson from everything that goes wrong in the UK. And then what the irony is, is that China sees Hong Kong as a symbol of modernity, and suddenly you get all these Chinese cities that want to emulate Hong Kong.

Chris Leslie (00:51:57):
Mm-hmm.

Neil Murphy (00:51:57):
And they get covered in tower blocks. It's this kind of weird cycle that... Yeah, stuff that we've turned our back on, they decided is a good thing. And yet, I don't know, it's how that gels and you're thinking there was a reason for them in Hong Kong because we really lacked space. But in China you don't, so did you have to do it? I don't know, it's quite weird.

Chris Leslie (00:52:23):
Yeah, I think... I mean, I guess with Glasgow as well, there's nothing fundamentally wrong. We're living in high-rise buildings as well, but during that period of time...

Neil Murphy (00:52:30):
Yep, yep, tell me child of the high-rise.

Chris Leslie (00:52:35):
During that period when they demolished everything, all these estates, it was just that fear of if asylum seekers moved into your block then it's no longer fit for habitation. If students moved in, it's no longer, and that's exactly what happened in Red Road. It's not fit for habitation, but we'll move the students in.

Neil Murphy (00:52:49):
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Chris Leslie (00:52:49):
And we'll move asylum seekers in and it'll be demolished, and it was that kind of pattern. So, if you were living in... Or...

Neil Murphy (00:52:54):
Yes.

Chris Leslie (00:52:56):
A high-rise block at that time, there was this kind of fear of, "Are we next?"

Neil Murphy (00:53:02):
Yeah, yeah. Such a shame because when you do tend to talk to people who have lived in high-rise, actually, people do love them. And it's the views, it's the curious kind of detachment from the city, that you're living above the city but you can get access to the city really quickly as well. Things like that, people love all those aspects of it and you get real kind of tight-knit relationships between people within them as neighbours. And yet, we as a society were not very good as maintaining them in the longer term, having invested so much in the first place.

Chris Leslie (00:53:36):
Mm-hmm, but I think they'll actually... With Glasgow is that the flats passed the point of being saved, because the kind of social fabric in the building from the inside was just a riot.

Neil Murphy (00:53:49):
Yeah.

Chris Leslie (00:53:49):
And there was drug dealing going on, because a lot of these buildings had no concierge here just to start with.

Neil Murphy (00:53:54):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chris Leslie (00:53:56):
The early 80s in the Glasgow, very, very, very bleak place. Started the industrialisation, all these high-rise buildings built the communist model. You build your workers near the workplace, when these workplaces go and then high unemployment, drugs take over by default when someone starts dealing in a flat. Once you get a series of dealers in flats, once people and families start to move out and you're moving in single parent households, all these things just kind of spiral down into.

Neil Murphy (00:54:22):
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Chris Leslie (00:54:24):
There was one block I documented down on Plain Street in Scotstoun, and the residents there actually petitioned the GHA to blow up because they called it the towers of hell because it was so bad in terms of drugs, in terms of antisocial behaviour, and people were just desperate to get out. All around, those areas were completely... Were the same flats, the same exact same architects, the exact same planning, the exact same buildings. And they managed to be all right, but these individual blocks themselves, some were so bad.

(00:54:59):
And it was just real, because they mentioned that part of the demolition is about these buildings only have a lifespan of 40, 50 years. There's structural problems and things like that, and these buildings only had a certain lifespan, and that's just not true. That's just... This was... It's all tied in, the economy and demolition brings a lot of money. And you say you don't pay VAT demolition as well, so it's favourable. That's a big thing across the UK, a big thing.

Neil Murphy (00:55:30):
Oh yeah, I know, it's incredible and frustrating.

Chris Leslie (00:55:33):
[inaudible 00:55:33]

Neil Murphy (00:55:33):
Yeah, some we absolutely have to change in the future.

Chris Leslie (00:55:35):
Yep, definitely, definitely, and there's a few people seeing it though. Yeah.

Neil Murphy (00:55:37):
Yep, and the carbon generated from that.

Chris Leslie (00:55:42):
Yep.

Neil Murphy (00:55:42):
Yeah, yeah, I've got to get... So, it's something I feel quite strongly about, that that's... When we look at things going forward, you have to look at not just the cost of demolition compared to retention, but it's also things like the carbon that would be generated as part of that should be factored into any new construction.

Chris Leslie (00:55:57):
Yep.

Neil Murphy (00:55:57):
So you're not necessarily at net-zero because you're already starting with a huge deficit, so you have to think about things like that. Anyway, what's next for you then? And is there hope in your work, and can we talk a little bit more about those things?

Chris Leslie (00:56:11):
Yeah, I think for me, I mean, the latest project I've done, just come back to your last point about sustainability and, demolition and stuff. A few months ago I was contacted from residents from the Wynford Flats in Mary Hill and they contacted me specifically saying, "Yeah, you're the guy who documents buildings being demolished."

Neil Murphy (00:56:31):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, really important to stay.

Chris Leslie (00:56:32):
And I'm like, "I've retired from that." And they're like, "Okay, you want to come down and speak to us?" And I went down and this was months after COP26, and all these promises of that everything made about demolition is wrong.

Neil Murphy (00:56:47):
Yeah.

Chris Leslie (00:56:48):
The carbon footprint of demolition should be, and they were going to demolish all these flats down at at Mary Hill.

Neil Murphy (00:56:58):
Yeah.

Chris Leslie (00:56:58):
On the front line of the West end kind of thing. So, a property developer must be just gleaming with the idea.

Neil Murphy (00:57:06):
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I don't see why they aren't looking at retrofit for that estate, because it's great wee enclave and it could work really well for that. It could be really... It could be a great place.

Chris Leslie (00:57:18):
Yep.

Neil Murphy (00:57:19):
It is a really interesting place. It could be, you could have great homes there as a consequence of that, and easy to heat.

Chris Leslie (00:57:26):
Yeah, yeah.

Neil Murphy (00:57:26):
Which is a real issue now, and is a massive... Fuel poverty is a massive problem in Glasgow.

Chris Leslie (00:57:33):
Yeah.

Neil Murphy (00:57:34):
So you could be addressing those kind of things, exactly what kind of collective architecture had been doing with the three tower blocks. Where is it, Woodside?

Chris Leslie (00:57:43):
Yeah, yeah. Yep, yep.

Neil Murphy (00:57:45):
The tower blocks that are being completely over clad and have these sunrooms, and you can do that. And that's what I had hoped the future of the tower block would be in Glasgow.

Chris Leslie (00:57:55):
Mm-hmm.

Neil Murphy (00:57:56):
That we would try and save these, because if you've made that initial investment you should be able to turn it around. It should be possible and you should be able to integrate it into the building fabric. I mean, all these things have been looked at since the 1970s. You've got to know how to do it. And...

Chris Leslie (00:58:09):
Yeah.

Neil Murphy (00:58:09):
I kind of wish they'd get on with it.

Chris Leslie (00:58:12):
And there was also... A lot of this, residents didn't want to move, I documented it. And so, it just felt just like...

Neil Murphy (00:58:17):
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

Chris Leslie (00:58:18):
Have we learned anything here? Are we just kind of going back to the same model? Because it's right.

Neil Murphy (00:58:23):
Yeah.

Chris Leslie (00:58:23):
It's chosen by market forces at play, and that's just always, always going to win.

Neil Murphy (00:58:28):
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Chris Leslie (00:58:29):
And it must have been known during that COP 26 because there was national discussions and announcements made in January. All these things must have, and you just think that there's a better way of managing this. I don't know, so in terms of hope, I was very kind of gutted by that. And just, I said, "Are we ever going to learn?" But other projects, I'm still pushing this Balkan journey book. I still got a few more talks and events planned, so.

Neil Murphy (00:59:01):
Right.

Chris Leslie (00:59:02):
I'm giving a talk at Doors Open Day this year as well around Glasgow and Sarajevo, windy landscapes it's called. It's very kind of similar to what we discussed today, so that would be an illustrated talk.

Neil Murphy (00:59:14):
Right, okay.

Chris Leslie (00:59:16):
But yeah, I mean, it's still... I'm also looking at a project in Cumbernauld with two of my friends and colleagues. We've called it Recollect.

Neil Murphy (00:59:26):
Mm-hmm.

Chris Leslie (00:59:26):
So there's three of us, myself, Mitch Miller an illustrator, and Alison Evan who's a writer. And we want to look at Cumbernauld because Cumbernauld town centres is obviously very topical just now because they're potentially...

Neil Murphy (00:59:38):
Absolutely, I was just about to say, you can beat the town centre, and what's going to happen with it?

Chris Leslie (00:59:42):
It's a political hot potato, but it's a hot potato that we want to juggle. We want it.

Neil Murphy (00:59:48):
Yes. Yeah, quite, absolutely. Good. Well, good luck with that. I mean, it is the most fascinating building.

Chris Leslie (00:59:53):
Yeah.

Neil Murphy (00:59:54):
Really, I've been around it a couple of times now, and really interesting. And it does kind of... It reminds me a lot of my childhood.

Chris Leslie (01:00:02):
Yeah.

Neil Murphy (01:00:03):
So, because every real similarity is going to mega structures out in Hong Kong and stuff here, and I find it in a town in Scotland fascinating.

Chris Leslie (01:00:11):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Neil Murphy (01:00:11):
It's quite something.

Chris Leslie (01:00:12):
I mean, with all three of us, I don't know Cumbernauld really that well. Since I'm new, we're approaching it with idea that we don't know much about it, because I know there's some people who hold Cumbernauld dear to their heart, and that's part of the argument just now, obviously. But I think as well, the other side of the argument is it's a town centre that's dead on its ass for lack of a better word. It just doesn't function as a town centre.

Neil Murphy (01:00:36):
Yeah. No, I know.

Chris Leslie (01:00:36):
No town centre functions.

Neil Murphy (01:00:37):
It stopped functioning? Yeah.

Chris Leslie (01:00:39):
So, we can see both sides of the arguments, of people who want to preserve it, but at the same time it's for people who live there as well.

Neil Murphy (01:00:45):
Yeah, yes.

Chris Leslie (01:00:46):
We want to try and document that.

Neil Murphy (01:00:48):
Yes, absolutely.

Chris Leslie (01:00:49):
So, but yeah, very, very political. But again, in terms of the buildings, even through my own work it was never about the buildings and Disappearing Glasgow. It was always about the stories, it was always with the people. Easy to photograph buildings in a majority photograph, but what's harder is getting the stories, and that's what's kind of interesting is myself, and Mitch and Alison as well. So we just have to see, I've got an application in for funding for that project, and we'll see kind of how that goes.

Neil Murphy (01:01:21):
Great. Well, I wish you luck with that, that would be a really fascinating project to kind of hear more about.

Chris Leslie (01:01:26):
Yeah.

Neil Murphy (01:01:26):
And see what happens with that legacy. Okay, final question then, and we ask everybody who comes on the podcast. And it's totally loaded, but it'll be interesting to see where you show of your bands. What is your favourite building in Glasgow? So still around or gone, and what would it tell you if its walls could talk?

Chris Leslie (01:01:47):
It has to be one that's gone. Obviously, I would be shooting myself in the foot foot if I chose something that's still here. I think to me, living in Dennistoun and always being in the East end, the white veil blue veil flats for me the Gallowgate are demolishing in 2015 were just spectacular for many reasons. Even though the kind of brittlest concrete towers that... Architects and photographers and artists just loved.

Neil Murphy (01:02:24):
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Chris Leslie (01:02:24):
And every day it was absolutely hated, including the City Council.

Neil Murphy (01:02:32):
It was quite something on the skyline.

Chris Leslie (01:02:32):
Yeah, get them...

Neil Murphy (01:02:32):
Yeah.

Chris Leslie (01:02:32):
Get them to... Every day wanted them gone, and I could see them from the windows. You could see them from anywhere on the East end. Very dark, imposing, kind of clean and monolithic structures.

Neil Murphy (01:02:43):
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Chris Leslie (01:02:43):
That just screamed to be brought down for anyone passing through Glasgow.

Neil Murphy (01:02:49):
Yeah.

Chris Leslie (01:02:52):
And after Red Road and doing the documentation, that was the big project in Glasgow museums, involved and funded by the GHA Glasgow life. I thought, "Well, there'll be a project there obviously, because these are unique kind of buildings." And these were the tallest buildings in terms of thirty story, seemed bigger than Red Road. And yeah, and I thought, "How did you get involved in this project of documentation, of remembrance, of collective memory?" And there isn't one, we just wanna and demolish them. So, I kind of took that aboard myself and done my own project around it, and photographed the inside and outside.

Neil Murphy (01:03:32):
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Chris Leslie (01:03:32):
The first residents that... The last residents. So, it kind of felt personal to me because it didn't feel it was after this much documentation.

Neil Murphy (01:03:40):
Yeah.

Chris Leslie (01:03:42):
And in terms of what that building would say, I don't know because I only captured the fraction of its stories before they came down. And I guess that's the real kind of tragedy of it, because they probably could have so much more to say. But yeah, that would definitely be the building. I would choose the white veil, blue veil flats. And it's interesting, my studio next door , I've got the original lettering.

(01:04:09):
You have the 10 lettering outside the blocks 51, white veil. I borrowed that from... I did ask for it, I didn't steal it for an exhibition of an exhibition that never happened, but I've got them on my wall. So very, very kind of, yeah, strong memories, and just always seeing them from the window as well. But I can understand as well simply why they were hated as well.

Neil Murphy (01:04:37):
Well, that was fantastic, Chris, thank you very much. Thank you so very much for sharing that with us, and I'm sure that our listeners will really appreciate hearing your thoughts on Sarajevo, those kind of connections with Glasgow, and where we go from here in terms of how we look after our cities and our high-rise buildings and what that means to the communities who live in them. Thank you very much. Now, let's give the last words to some of the people whose voices Chris recorded before their homes were demolished.

Speaker 3 (01:05:12):
And all I've seen was ruins, just to see a lifetime destroyed sort of thing. And all those people, where have they all gone? It's probably like Eleanor Rigby in the Beatles, it is. It is, it's a sort of story. All the people, all the lonely people, where did they go? Where did everybody go?

Speaker 4 (01:05:32):
So, it's not the actual physical building, it's all your memories in it, because that's what was kind of brought up mainly. That's what made me a man. And so, it's like any man's made the memories in it, so if your physical manifestation, your memories goes in, it's quite a fetch I think. But I'll be very, very sad to see it go. You just always thought it'll always be here, they'll always be and last forever. But when you see it, no, you realise it's not going to last forever.