Jordan Peterson, Burnout, and the Power of Radical Ownership

🎙️ Episode 21 – Jordan Peterson, Burnout, and the Power of Radical Ownership

This is a Lion Reflection – a personal monologue where I share the hard-earned lessons, challenges, and insights that have shaped my journey as a therapist, leader, and man of faith.

👉 Want support from a therapist who gets it? SCHEDULE A FREE, 30-MINUTE CONSULT at: https://escapethecagenow.com/call/

In this episode, I share the powerful story of meeting Dr. Jordan Peterson—a man whose work has impacted millions, including many of you. I’ll walk you through what I learned in our private conversation about burnout, resentment, pride, and how radical personal responsibility might be the key to becoming the man God created you to be.

Whether you're a therapist, entrepreneur, leader, or just trying to hold everything together as a husband and father, the lessons in this episode will challenge and equip you to take ownership of your life, set healthy boundaries, and protect your integrity.

🔍 In This Episode, You’ll Hear:

• How my face-to-face conversation with Dr. Peterson challenged my thinking
• The trap of taking too much credit—or too much blame—for others' outcomes
• How resentment is a signal that your boundaries are being violated
• Why radical ownership isn’t just wise—it’s spiritually essential
• How Jesus modeled true responsibility—and what that means for us as men
• A 4-step challenge you can use this week to detox your heart from bitterness

📖 Plus: I close the episode by reading my original poem, “Crossing the Jordan,” written in honor of Dr. Peterson’s work.

🔥 This reflection isn’t about fandom. It’s about formation. Take what’s useful and put it into practice.

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👉 Ready to make a change? Visit www.escapethecagenow.com to schedule your free consultation for coaching or counseling.

Click here to watch a video of this episode.’

Creators and Guests

Host

Mark Odland

Founder of Lion Counseling, Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, Certified EMDR Therapist

What is Lion Counseling Podcast?

The Lion Counseling Podcast helps men escape the cages that hold them back and become the Lions they were created to be. It exists to help men obtain success, purpose, happiness, and peace in their career and personal lives. The podcast is hosted by the founder of Lion Counseling, Mark Odland (Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist and Certified EMDR Therapist), and Zack Carter (Counselor and Coach with Lion Counseling). In their podcasts, they address a variety of topics relevant to men, including: mental health, relationships, masculinity, faith, success, business, and self-improvement.

Mark Odland: 00:01

Everyone to the Lion Counseling Podcast. I'm Mark Odland, founder of Lion Counseling and certified EMDR therapist. Our mission is to help men to break free, to heal deep, and to become the Lions they were created to be. Today, I'll be talking about a conversation I had with doctor Jordan Peterson and how it can help you to become a better man and to guard against burnout and bitterness. Make sure to hang on till the end because I have a challenge for you.

Mark Odland: 00:31

And if you're willing to accept it, you can put this wisdom into practice in your everyday life. And since you're already here, if you could hit that subscribe button, we'd really appreciate it. It helps us to keep growing the channel and help more men. Alright. Yeah.

Mark Odland: 00:47

Let's jump in. This, there's a good chance you already know that doctor George Bush has been fierce. To some, he's a lightning rod. To others, a true lifeline. And to millions of men, including many of you, he is a voice that puts words to a deep ache, the sense that something in this world, maybe even something within us, is wrong, is off, And, no one is saying what it is out loud, but Jordan Peterson speaks these things out loud.

Mark Odland: 01:44

He speaks about responsibility, order, meaning, and the weight of suffering, But not as problems to avoid or things that are toxic, but as burdens we are called to carry that we're meant to carry. At Lion Counseling, we sit with men every day who feel that ache inside, men who are strong and successful and respected on the outside, but privately are wrestling with things like anxiety and anger and trauma and spiritual drift. And like doctor Peterson, we believe that healing begins, not through numbing the pain, but by facing it head on, walking through it with courage and clarity and faith. Well, a while back, I had the unique privilege and opportunity to speak with Jordan face to face, not in an interview, but a real conversation. And in this episode, I wanna share, that experience with you, not just what we talked about, but what has stirred inside of me.

Mark Odland: 02:52

And because if you're walking on the same road, trying to become the best, man, leader, husband, and father that you can be, I suspect it might stir something in you too. My conversation with Doctor. Peterson, as you can imagine, was an important moment in my professional journey. And truly, it's right up there with recently having his good friend, Jonathan Pageau, on my podcast to talk about faith and memory and healing. And as many of you know, my life's work closely echoes that of Doctor.

Mark Odland: 03:27

Peterson because it focuses on psychology and faith and guiding men toward personal and professional breakthrough. And so given this reality, meeting him face to face was truly an honor. I think back on it and, it was truly an extraordinary evening. So I'm sitting in this sold out arena, and I had a front row seat, literally in the first row for hearing doctor Peterson lecture as part of his, we who wrestle with god tour. Cain and Abel, Noah and the ark, Carl Jung, totalitarianism, Jesus masculinity, like a mighty river, his words were ebbing and flowing throughout, throughout a variety of topics, meandering back and forth, and then ultimately converging in deep and meaningful and thought provoking connections and watching him improvise.

Mark Odland: 04:24

For those of you who have seen him in person, seen him live, you know what I mean here, but to see him think out loud and work through these deep and difficult topics in real time felt like watching some kind of, world class composer or painter or jazz musician in action. And if the night had ended there, it would have been a good night. I would have been a happy man. But before long, I I would meet doctor Peterson face to face. Well, after his standing ovation ended and the crowd dispersed, a smaller group of us were taken around the back to a closed off meeting to meet Doctor.

Mark Odland: 05:06

Peterson. And honestly, I've always been somewhat annoyed by the the celebrity worship in our country. I've never been a big autograph guy just because, I guess, from a faith perspective, I know that only God is the one we should idolize, and and sometimes we elevate people too highly. And yet, I think it's important to have heroes. It's important to have people to emulate, to look up to, and to inspire us.

Mark Odland: 05:36

And so when Jordan entered the room, I confess, I I did feel a little starstruck. After watching hundreds of hours of this man's content, you kinda feel like you get to know the guy. It's a strange dynamic because hundreds, thousands of people feel like they know him, and yet from his perspective, we're just another person, one of many. Right? And so to see him face to face was a little surreal.

Mark Odland: 06:04

But before long, was able to look the man in the eye, to shake his hand, and to express my gratitude and and tell him about myself, that I was a therapist. And he was gracious enough to ask about my practice. I was able to share with him that it was going really well, being so excited about Lion Council and what we're doing here. And I shared that I was also a poet and an artist and had even written him a poem that was inspired by his life and work. And he accepted it graciously, and I was able to thank him for being the man that he is.

Mark Odland: 06:39

And so after all the photos and and small talk, we settled in for a private question and answer session. And, I knew that his time was valuable, and so I was surprised and honored when he chose me as, of only of all the people there, as only one of three individuals, to have a personal conversation with. I shared with him that as a therapist who leads a team of therapists, you know, we try our best to speak the truth and in that theological sense, try to carry our cross into the suffering of others. And then these are both themes that he touched on in this lecture, which was which is so powerful. But I expressed to him that we we deal with a lot of trauma.

Mark Odland: 07:26

Right? And that by doing so, there's always this risk of vicarious trauma, meaning that we could be traumatized ourselves by hearing these stories. And so I asked him point blank, one clinician to another, one man to another man, you know, what advice would you give me and my team for how we could help traumatized people, people going through different struggles, going through different hurts and insecurities. These men that I work with help lie in every day. How can I do this?

Mark Odland: 07:59

How can we do this without falling into the pit ourselves, without being traumatized ourselves? And so in good doctor Peterson fashion, he he paused as he often does, internalizing the the conversation and the question. And he nodded his head in acknowledgment and and then shared with me some hard earned wisdom. And much of this, you know, as a therapist, I already knew. And yet in classic Jordan Peterson fashion, he had a unique way of driving the points home, which gave them a new resonance.

Mark Odland: 08:38

First of all, he described the importance, the importance of not slipping into the trap of taking too much credit for a client's successes in therapy. And, this is important because doing so robs them of coming to their own conclusions and healing in their own unique way. And it's a package deal. If you take too much credit for someone else's success, well, guess what? You also have to take credit for their failures, including those that are, in his words, catastrophic.

Mark Odland: 09:10

It's hit it's their journey. It's their journey, he exclaimed. He then warned me that talented therapists should be especially careful because when they inevitably find strategies that work, they can easily become overconfident in these strategies leading to a dangerous form of pride. And, his words his words rang true. As a man myself who who's had a fair amount of success working with with high achieving men, I'm a pretty driven person.

Mark Odland: 09:45

I'm I'm an entrepreneur. I I have lofty goals in life. And while I try to stay centered in God's will and and try to, think about the ways that I can help others and the bigger impact that I can have for his kingdom, I'd be lying if I said there wasn't a danger in success. As the saying goes, pride comes before the fall. And so his words continue to be a good reminder to remain vigilant and to not let pride sneak up on me.

Mark Odland: 10:18

And I know for many of you guys listening, that's also a temptation that that you have to contend with and something that you have to sort through. How to be confident in what you do, how to be a competitor in what you do, and how to not let that confidence become a pride or an arrogance that leads to a downfall. So that was the first part of our conversation. The second part focused on resentment. Doctor Peterson went on and described for me that how and again, he's talking specifically to me as to me as a therapist here, but he said for us as therapists, paying attention to the resentment that we feel inside serves as a incredibly important way to gauge when things are out of balance with a client.

Mark Odland: 11:10

The presence of resentment towards clients, towards the other men that we work with gets things out of balance, basically. It indicates to the therapist that in the words of doctor Peterson, it's time to quote unquote grow the hell up and recognize that resentment is the destructive poison when we let it fester. Right? It poisons us from the inside out. And second, it beckons us to recognize that resentment is the body's way of telling us something important.

Mark Odland: 11:48

It's telling us that there are boundaries that are being violated and that these boundary violations are hurting us. This holds true not only for therapeutic relationships, but for our personal relationships and our business relationships as well. He then shared a personal story from his own practice describing how he learned to take ownership for his own decisions as a therapist. Then he gave a specific example of how when he's working with clients, he would have that decision of whether or not to give out his cell phone number for emergencies. And he realized that if he did this, he relinquished the right to blame the client later if they actually called him.

Mark Odland: 12:35

If they interrupted his dinner, if they called him in the middle of the night, he had no right to complain because he gave them the number. And if he didn't wanna be called after hours, then he had to figure out another plan. No excuses. No woe is me. Not surprisingly, doctor Jordan Peterson was advising me and my team to take personal responsibility for our choices.

Mark Odland: 13:03

In hindsight, not a big surprise. Right? So to close, to close off our conversation, to bring things full circle, I was struck by the compassion in in Jordan's eyes where he validated for me that while providing good therapy will indeed be sharing in the suffering of others, that it was so important to remember to keep our hearts at arm's length, to avoid falling into the client's pain too deeply, emphasizing that, in his words, a little compassion goes a long way, man. And I think Jordan was recognizing that we live in a culture that, has emphasized compassion in some ways almost to a fault. A compassion that's limitless without boundaries and without truth.

Mark Odland: 13:59

And that, that actually is not a virtue. It's actually destructive. Deep breath. Just retelling the story now, I I still get the chills thinking about what a powerful experience that was talking with talking with Jordan and, and how that became a pivotal moment in my professional development and a door opening, that that, led to other good things in my career and in my personal life. And so overall, incredible night.

Mark Odland: 14:34

And now that some time has passed, I'm curious about whether or not he actually got around to opening that, that thing I wrote him, that that that poem that was inspired by his work. And if so, I hope I hope it was a blessing to him. And if you'd like to hear that, hang on till the end because I will read it, I promise. But first I wanna take these lessons from Jordan and make them practical for you. Many of the clients, many of my clients find me because this is kinda interesting.

Mark Odland: 15:07

They would actually, let's be honest, rather schedule their counseling session with doctor Jordan Peterson himself. But what they all find as they do their Google searches or AI searches is that no, Doctor. Peterson understandably does not see clients clinically anymore. He's got other things he feels called to, other things he's doing. And so at first, they feel out of luck.

Mark Odland: 15:32

And so they continue their search for a therapist like doctor Peterson, and then they find me. And, no, I'm not a Jordan Peterson clone. I am not trying to become a Jordan Peterson robot. There are definitely some differences in who we are and how we practice for sure. My style of listening is different from his.

Mark Odland: 15:53

The way I conceptualize and treat trauma, specifically as a certified EMDR therapist is very different from what he does. But obviously there's significant overlap. And there are parts of Doctor. Peterson's approach that I've adopted as core to my practice. For example, the importance of embracing personal responsibility.

Mark Odland: 16:15

So back to the wisdom Jordan shared with me. Right now, if you'd like to go through a little exercise with me here, like to kinda put something in a practice, I'd like you to take like you to take a moment and just close your eyes. If you're not driving right now, if you're not going on a on a jog or working out, which a lot of the guys who listen to me do, but if you're in a safe space safe place to, you know, safely close your eyes, do so and think about this concept of resentment that me and Jordan talked about. And specifically, who in your life gives you that feeling of bitterness or resentment? Just think about it.

Mark Odland: 17:03

Whose face pops into your mind? If Jordan's correct in his assessment that holding resentment means you're actually allowing someone to violate your boundaries, and let's take a look at that. That person in your mind, what have you allowed them to do? What boundaries have you allowed them to cross? And here's another question.

Mark Odland: 17:36

What would happen to the anger and resentment if you actually took complete ownership for your decision to allow them to do it? What would happen if you gave up your right to be angry? Does it turn back towards yourself? And if so, you have two choices. Accept your decision and live with it or make a different choice even if the option doesn't feel great, even if it doesn't feel like a valid choice, it's still your choice.

Mark Odland: 18:13

Let's make it concrete. Here's an example. For those, you know, business leaders or entrepreneurs, small business owners out there, imagine your employee who's a pretty good employee, but he keeps leaving early from work to, say, coach his son's little league team. You know deep down, it's it's great that this guy's a family man. He he's trying to make time for what matters, but they're just assuming it's okay.

Mark Odland: 18:45

They're making it a pattern of leaving work too early. They're leaving work unfinished. And as a result, you're picking up the slack. And you can feel inside the resentment building, the poisonous feeling in the gut, the negative thoughts spiraling through your mind. But now you try to take doctor Peterson's advice to heart.

Mark Odland: 19:09

You take radical ownership for your decision to let them leave early. Yes. Let them leave early and think. It was my choice. If you tell him he can't go to his son's ball games, then you're a micromanager.

Mark Odland: 19:27

No. It's not a choice. I can't do that. Oh, you're against his family. Oh, you're a mean boss.

Mark Odland: 19:32

These are the things we tell ourselves to convince ourselves. It's not really a choice. Wrong. It's still a choice. It's a choice to make him stay.

Mark Odland: 19:44

It's a choice to let him leave. It's a choice to let it go, and it's a choice to have a hard conversation about expectations. And then as a grown man, he'd have a choice about whether or not to respect your decision or not, to modify his behavior, or to find a new job. And that would be his choice. It's always a choice.

Mark Odland: 20:10

You're a grown man, not a victim. Resentment is embracing a victim mentality. Blaming others is a weakness. Radical ownership, on the other hand, is a strength. I know this to be true.

Mark Odland: 20:28

Jordan knows this. Warriors like navy seal Jocko Willink know this. The stoics, from of old knew this, and, yes, Jesus knew this truth, and he lived it out. And on the outside, Jesus did look at times like a victim. Right?

Mark Odland: 20:45

He looked like a failed messiah, but Jesus was no victim. In John's gospel, he states, no one no one takes it from me. His life, he's referring to here. No one takes my life from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have the authority to lay it down and the authority to take it up again.

Mark Odland: 21:10

This charge I have received from my father. No. We're not Jesus, but we can strive to follow his example. Could it be that simple? Could radical ownership and personal responsibility in the big and the small decisions of life actually cure our resentment and bitterness and help us guard against burnout and lead us to deeper strength and integrity?

Mark Odland: 21:37

The answer, of course, is yes. There's a lot to gain here. So my fellow lions, why don't we do it? Well, often we don't do it because of what we have to face or because of what we'd have to give up. We'd have to face our own weakness and cowardice because owning our decisions can mean facing conflict.

Mark Odland: 22:04

It can mean the need for assertiveness. It can mean an agonizing process of discerning what the correct path forward actually looks like. And it's not easy. And potentially giving up our resentments means having to face our own securities, our insecurities and fears within us that are all too often kept at bay by avoiding the conflict, by swallowing hard, complying, and saying yes even though our body is screaming no. In order to give up resentment, we might have to face quite a lot.

Mark Odland: 22:45

And we'd also have to give some things up. Letting go of resentment means we'd have to give up the feeling of self righteousness, and we'd have to give up our, our right to complain and to blame others. We'd have to give up our right to revenge and retaliation. We we'd have to give up a lot. But when we give up the anger and the resentment and the bitterness, we experience not only that power and that freedom that comes with that, but also something that feels a lot like peace and a lot like forgiveness.

Mark Odland: 23:20

Because after all, forgiveness is much more than just saying words. It's actually laying down the weapons of anger and bitterness and instead taking up that sword of the spirit, which is the word of God, which commands us to love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us. Forgiveness means wishing the best for the other person. This is not weakness, brothers. This is strength.

Mark Odland: 23:48

And don't get me wrong. There are things worth fighting for in life, and strength and boundaries can coexist with forgiveness. You can forgive your employee for being a jerk and release that resentment and put him on an improvement plan. You can forgive your employee and pray that he has a wonderful, bright future And you can let him go. You can fire him if necessary.

Mark Odland: 24:20

You can take action, brothers, but you don't have to live with poison in your heart. You don't have to carry around the emotions that make your blood boil and your blood pressure rise. And you can learn to be the type of leader who lets his yes be yes and his no be no. And to know that at the end of the day, the only guy responsible for these decisions is the one staring back at you in the mirror. So the question, what?

Mark Odland: 24:51

What if? What if radical ownership and personal responsibility were actually the key to strength and integrity? What if they freed us from the resentment and shielded us from burnout? What if they embodied the noble path god has laid before us? I think we know the answer, fellow lions.

Mark Odland: 25:14

My challenge to you this week is to put it into practice. In summary, step one, embrace radical ownership and personal responsibility, and this means refusing to blame anyone. Everything is a choice. Own it. Step two, identify anyone in your life you're holding resentment against.

Mark Odland: 25:43

Write down their names. Write down the boundaries that they've crossed and how it's impacted you. Let's be real. And step three, decide what you're gonna do about it. For each person on that list, write a corresponding action that you're gonna take.

Mark Odland: 26:02

It might be a difficult conversation. It might be forgiving them. It might be setting a boundary or might be choosing to accept the situation as it is. But again, here's the key, giving up the right to complain about it. Because after all, you're choosing to accept it because the other alternatives, feel like less desirable choices.

Mark Odland: 26:26

And finally, step four, pray for God's guidance. I know we're coming from different backgrounds here, but I know a lot of you guys out there who listen to us are men of faith. And and so pray. Pray for God's guidance as you imperfectly put these things into practice and pray for God's strength to keep practicing these skills until they become a habit and pray for God's grace. His grace to know that your dad in heaven loves you and forgives you and, yes, is proud of you for stepping up to the plate and taking the hard path.

Mark Odland: 27:07

Alright. So to close, here's that poem that I wrote for doctor Peterson. It's titled Crossing the Jordan by Mark Oddlin. He ascends from the abyss of ancestral pain, tattooed on his bones by books like Kane. In his mortal body, he holds vibrations of trauma.

Mark Odland: 27:37

In his immortal soul, he unfolds the archetypal drama. Still, he climbs, dirt under his nails, and our blindness falls from our eyes like scales. Heaven chiseled hearts through truthful speech, a suffering savior now just within reach. Ablaze with love, he climbs still higher, battling our hell like a raging fire. Thank you, doctor Peterson, for inspiring me and for so many of my listeners out there.

Mark Odland: 28:17

I hope we can meet again soon and, deepen our conversation. Alright, fellow lions. Thanks for listening today. If you've hung on this long, subscribe now to support the channel and help us get the word out to more men. And feel free to drop a comment below.

Mark Odland: 28:36

Let me know how Jordan Peterson impacted your life. I read all the comments, and I'd love to connect with you guys on these important topics. Keep the conversation going. Well, that's all I got for today. God bless, and talk to you soon, guys.