Grieving Charlie Kirk: A Christian Counseling Perspective on Tragedy and Healing

🎙️ Episode 28 – Grieving Charlie Kirk: A Christian Counseling Perspective on Tragedy and Healing

In this special episode of The Lion Counseling Podcast, Mark Odland and Zack Carter respond to the tragic and violent death of Charlie Kirk from a Christian counseling perspective. As husbands, fathers, and mental health professionals, they unpack the emotional weight of this national trauma and guide listeners through the 4 Tasks of Mourning by J. William Worden.

Whether you were a follower of Charlie’s work or are simply shaken by the wave of violence and grief in our world, this episode will help you process the pain with honesty, faith, and emotional clarity. Mark and Zack draw from both EMDR and CBT approaches—blended with Christian values—to offer a grounded path toward healing.

🔍 In This Episode, You'll Learn:
Why grief can hit us even if we didn’t know someone personally
How to accept the reality of loss when it feels surreal
Why processing emotions like anger, sadness, and fear is essential—and biblical
How to adjust to a world without a voice we once relied on
What it means to honor someone’s legacy without being consumed by pain
How Christian men can respond with strength and grace, not vengeance

🙏 This conversation is filled with empathy, truth, and practical strategies to help men navigate both personal and cultural grief in a spiritually grounded way.

👉 Need support or someone to talk to?
Schedule a FREE 30-minute consultation with Mark or Zack at:
https://escapethecagenow.com/call/

Click here to watch a video of this episode.’
About the Show
The Lion Counseling Podcast helps men break free from what’s holding them back and become the lions they were created to be. Hosted by Mark Odland, Certified EMDR Therapist, and Zack Carter, Counselor & Coach, this show tackles real issues—trauma, faith, masculinity, marriage, grief, addiction, and legacy—with clarity, honesty, and courage.

Creators and Guests

Host

Mark Odland

Founder of Lion Counseling, Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, Certified EMDR Therapist

Host

Zack Carter

Zack Carter is a Counselor and Coach with Lion Counseling LLC.

What is Lion Counseling Podcast?

The Lion Counseling Podcast helps men escape the cages that hold them back and become the Lions they were created to be. It exists to help men obtain success, purpose, happiness, and peace in their career and personal lives. The podcast is hosted by the founder of Lion Counseling, Mark Odland (Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist and Certified EMDR Therapist), and Zack Carter (Counselor and Coach with Lion Counseling). In their podcasts, they address a variety of topics relevant to men, including: mental health, relationships, masculinity, faith, success, business, and self-improvement.

Mark Odland: 00:00

Welcome everyone to the lion counseling podcast. I'm Mark Godland, founder of lion counseling and certified EMDR therapist.

Zack Carter: 00:07

I'm Zach Carter, counselor and coach.

Mark Odland: 00:11

And our mission is to help men to break free, to heal deep and become the lions they were created to be. Well, it's been a heavy, heavy couple days here. The sudden and violent death of Charlie Kirk has less has left many people, reeling. His wife and kids lost a husband and a father and countless others lost a friend, a mentor, or a voice they relied on. And so in the days and weeks to come, you're gonna hear a lot of politics.

Mark Odland: 00:42

And, but what you might not be hearing is a perspective from the mental health side. And so our hope and our, we felt moved today, Zach and I, to, try to step into this space, to talk about the grief, how heavy it can be and how we, as a community, as a country might process something like this. And specifically in this episode, we're gonna walk through, Warden's four tasks of mourning to help make sense of this grief if that's even possible, to face that painful reality and to begin moving forward, as painful and complicated as that might be in the wake of hearing about such a devastating loss. And we'll also share our perspectives as Christian counselors who often help our clients walk through trauma and tragedy. And so if you find yourself listening today, we're we're just hoping and praying it's for a reason and that it's helpful for you guys listening out there.

Mark Odland: 01:44

Alright. Well, let's get started. Zach, it's good to see you. I know Before we started recording, we were just sharing a little prayer together and and just, you know, just acknowledging the heaviness of how we're how we're feeling and and and what we're seeing in our clients already.

Zack Carter: 02:06

Yeah. We were we were talking a little bit about you know, it sounds like you may have listened to Charlie Crickle a bit more than me. You know, I peer I periodically heard him in other shows that I listened to. And I've been trying to wrap my head around why this has hit me so hard. My wife was asking, she sent me a text.

Zack Carter: 02:26

She's like, who's Charlie Kirk? And what happened? And she realized she had seen some of his videos and just not not known who he was. And it really hit her hard too. And so I'm like wrapping my head like, you know, we didn't really follow this guy.

Zack Carter: 02:39

And so why why is this hitting so hard? And I've been wrapping my head around this for a couple days and, you know, part of it I think is me identifying some some traits in him that that are in me, not just Christian faith, but, know, I was like, man, I think he's my age. And my wife's like, he's

Mark Odland: 02:57

30 And

Zack Carter: 02:59

I was like, oh, I'm 34. So he's like three years younger than me. He's got a wife. He's got two little ones. I think they're, like, three and one, somewhere around there or something.

Zack Carter: 03:09

I saw a video on Megyn Kelly show of his two year old running up to him at some event and just so excited. And it just, like, made me think of, you know, my daughter. And, yeah, I think politics aside, man, like, this is a dude that was trying to share faith, was trying to love on people. He tried to be level headed. He tried to be kind even if he disagreed with people.

Zack Carter: 03:39

And, like, ultimately, there's a woman whose husband is never coming home again and two little ones whose father are never gonna be around. And, you know, we'll get into the stages of mourning. There's gonna be some things that they have to readjust to. Right? That little girl never gets to have a daddy daughter dance at her wedding.

Zack Carter: 03:59

Right? And that's gonna impact her. And, you know, there's a son that is gonna have to, like, learn about manhood either from another man or from video clips from his dad, but not from his dad directly. So, yeah, that's kinda just some of thoughts on the heaviness of this and I think what's hitting me so hard. And I I don't quite know what's hitting my clients as hard, but it was consistent.

Zack Carter: 04:22

I had so many clients yesterday that that you could just tell they were distraught, and they were very affected by what happened.

Mark Odland: 04:33

Yeah. For sure, Zach. I yeah. And I really appreciate you, just bringing up the the human just the human level of this. You know, part of what separates us from from other countries and other ideologies is is that we don't kill each other when we disagree with each other.

Mark Odland: 04:53

And so I I feel like, you know, I'm a little bit older than you. I'm not I don't want to do the math on nine eleven when when you were how old you might have been but I remember me, I was in college and I remember one of the things that was and I'm not comparing these two events in in that regard. Interestingly enough, it happened what the day before, the anniversary, but but just the way that, you know, we are blessed to live in a country with a lot of freedoms and a lot of stability compared to to some. And so when something that violent happens, whether it's an assassination or an act of terrorism, it can really rock our sense of safety in the world. And and and maybe even kind of break down some ideas we had about perceived safety that that is maybe maybe it is still there.

Mark Odland: 05:45

Maybe it's an illusion that it's there. I mean, it makes people face really hard things about their own mortality. And and like you said, as a dad, as a husband, all you have to do is take one step into that place of empathy to start to be like, oh my gosh. Like, I can't imagine what that would what that would be like, if my wife and kids were left behind. So and and I I appreciate too you sharing that grief can sneak up on us in unexpected ways and impact people in significant ways even when they maybe wouldn't expect it or even if their relationship with a person that is gone is different.

Mark Odland: 06:28

Right? We have in our mind, well, the people who are like super close, like the family and friends, I mean, obviously, they're the most devastated, but that doesn't mean that the ripple effects of people who had different kinds of relationships also aren't impacted in grieving. And I guess the last thing I'd say before we jump in, to these these different conversation topics around grief, and ways to to kind of move through it, if you will, is, yeah. I mean, the impact the the impact of of of grief, it it can come on with unexpected emotions. It can it can be heavy and even though millions of people around America and around the world, if they've watched him and and and if they they saw in him that even if there were heated political, you know, debate sometimes and these gotcha moments that went viral on YouTube or whatever Mhmm.

Mark Odland: 07:25

At the heart of it, you do see someone who believes strongly in free speech and tried to do it with a charitable kind attitude toward people. And and so people, you know, with these figures on on TV, you might feel like you know them. Like, for for those of our listeners who have watched Charlie a long time, it it's it's a strange phenomenon, but you you almost feel like they're a friend because they've poured so much of themselves out, online, and you do get a sense of of of some of their their their traits, their humor, their character, some of these things. And so you feel connected to them. And even if it is a one way street and and you've never met the guy, it can feel very you could feel very connected.

Mark Odland: 08:12

And so when that's torn torn away, it could be a significant loss. So, all that being said, Zach, I I know you have a a framework to share with our audience that that maybe could be helpful for people to think about how to even name this grief and and I'd like to if if someone out there is asking, like, what do I do with this? Mhmm. What how do I how do I possibly, process this? Maybe that's where we could kinda jump in.

Zack Carter: 08:41

Yeah. So famously, there's a model called the Kubler Ross model that

Mark Odland: 08:46

Sure.

Zack Carter: 08:47

Has, you know, the five stages of grief. And, you know, famously, you know, denial, anger, bargaining, so on and so forth. And that's that's that's a great model to kinda see. There's a lot of commonalities. A lot of people see these emotions that happen.

Zack Carter: 09:06

But my understanding of the model doesn't really, like, walk you through grief. It just kinda tells you what to expect.

Mark Odland: 09:11

Sure.

Zack Carter: 09:12

And so Warden's tasks of mourning, he actually created a a template to like walk through the mourning process, to actually begin healing through your grief. Right? And so we're gonna we're gonna walk through that today and talk about the difference the different tasks and how we can how we can incorporate those. Sure. So the four steps as we're seeing on the screen right now, we got the image.

Zack Carter: 09:39

The four steps are accepting the reality of the loss, processing the pain of grief, adjusting to a world without the deceased, and finding an enduring connection with the deceased. Right? So we're gonna get into each of these stages and Mark and I are gonna are gonna talk through them. Sure. Let's start with number one.

Zack Carter: 10:00

So number one, we said accept the reality of the lost. So I don't know about you, but, you know, I pull up YouTube two days ago, and I see a a title on a podcast that says, Charlie dead at thirty one. Charlie Charlie Kirk dead at thirty one. I and, like, at first I was like, that's that's weird. That's gotta be an error.

Zack Carter: 10:25

Like Mhmm. The first thing was denial. Right? It was like, no. That's that's not right.

Zack Carter: 10:31

That that can't be

Mark Odland: 10:32

Mhmm.

Zack Carter: 10:33

That's not a thing.

Mark Odland: 10:33

Right.

Zack Carter: 10:35

And I think that's that's a normal experience. And so our first step is actually accepting the reality of the loss. Right? As we saw more and more and more news outlets come out and say, okay, this this is real. Right?

Zack Carter: 10:46

I didn't see the close-up I'm gonna avoid that, like the plague. Yeah. But I saw a video from far away of him of the of the bang and him falling over. And so oftentimes that helps us to accept the reality when we see something like that a lot a lot faster. But for many people, even if we're not talking about Charlie Kirk, if you're if you've lost a loved one, that is that that first task that we gotta walk through is accepting that this person isn't here anymore.

Zack Carter: 11:18

We we do that Yeah. Through things like attending the funeral, you know, beginning to speak of them in the past tense. Right? Now we have to say, Charlie Kirk, you know, what was, you know, political commentator. He was a Christian.

Zack Carter: 11:33

Like, we have to now say was instead of is, which is kinda crazy. It feels weird

Mark Odland: 11:38

Yeah.

Zack Carter: 11:38

To say that. You know, if it's a loved one, we realize we're not getting another phone call from them. We're not getting a hug. When we when we want to celebrate something awesome, we're like, oh, I'm gonna call dad. Oh, I'm gonna call mom.

Zack Carter: 11:52

Oh, I'm gonna call my wife. And then we realize that we can't, like, there's no one on the other end. That is part of that acceptance process. Right? And so Right.

Zack Carter: 12:04

Even now, we're we're probably at a point, I hope not, but we're probably at a point in our country where some some major changes might begin to happen like, you know, these outdoor events that Charlie Kirk would put on. It's very possible those don't happen anymore because people people are gonna be afraid that they might get killed for speaking their beliefs and that's that's terrifying. Yeah. And so this acceptance processes is accepting that, like, hey. Here's this new reality that we're living in.

Zack Carter: 12:34

Any thoughts on that, Mark?

Mark Odland: 12:37

Yeah. And I think, you know, it's interesting kind of dovetailing with this model versus, like you said, the other older model of, like, denial being being at toward the beginning of the stage of, you know, stages of grief. It strikes me that denial can, in the moment, can feel almost empowering because it feels like, well, maybe there's something and same for bargaining. Maybe there's something I can do. Maybe there's some action I can take to kinda make this not be real.

Mark Odland: 13:08

And I think acceptance can be so hard because it's kind of a surrender to reality. It's it's it's it's kind of a it can can be kind of a helpless feeling even if there's some freedom on the other side of it to just be able to be like, yep. This is real. This is happening. And then on the other side of that might be some deep sadness, to really to really face that.

Mark Odland: 13:33

Mhmm. But I I guess I know, that's also not the end of the story is the acceptance piece. Right? That they're Mhmm. And it's interesting.

Mark Odland: 13:42

Even when you said the past tense, you know, for a lot of, our our clients of faith, there's this sense that it becomes very tricky because when they think of their their loved one being with god, being in heaven, there is a sense that there still is a present tense. Like, he is not he he was here, but he is with god and so it's it can be that's very comforting. But also disorienting. Mhmm. Like, even questions like where where is my loved one?

Mark Odland: 14:18

Mhmm. Right? That comes up a lot in trauma therapy with EMDR that I do with clients is sometimes there'll be an image that's kind of seared into their mind, and and it actually prevents them from almost like being able to access the happy memories that they had with that person because they're stuck on the scene of the accident, or they're stuck on that scene in the hospital room, or they're stuck on the scene from, the funeral. And so part of what we process with them is if they're a person of faith to be like, hey. What's the hope that we have?

Mark Odland: 14:51

Right? And if the hope is that they're they're in the arms of Christ right now, they're with God, they're with their creator, then where are they now takes on a different meaning. Right? And there becomes this kind of paradoxical reality. Like, they might be at the cemetery, but they also might be, right, with the Lord.

Mark Odland: 15:10

So it's it's very, so, yeah, that those that's what's coming to mind for me, Zach. And the last thing I'd say is when you mentioned trying to avoid that close-up video at all costs, I, kinda got blindsided by it on a group group text, with some guys at at at church as soon as it was breaking. And I think there was a disclaimer, but I kind of, like, skimmed through it too fast. And, so I would just encourage people out there that if they have seen it and if that's an image that's really stuck in their mind, we can be traumatized by seeing things even if we weren't physically there. Mhmm.

Mark Odland: 15:50

And so I just wanna name that for people that if if that's the case for you, as you're in this early stages of grief and trauma, that, if the image doesn't start to fade and if it's if it's kind of really hard to get out of your head, and that continues to go on for days and weeks, just know that there is support out there and that we that can be, healed and and faded. So I I don't wanna belabor that point, but I wanted to throw that out there for our clients that there is there is help for the trauma side of this as well.

Zack Carter: 16:23

That's so good. Yeah. And so many of those, we haven't even talked about the people that were in attendance, you know?

Mark Odland: 16:29

Oh my gosh. Yeah. You know,

Zack Carter: 16:31

as like kids seeing a person you look up to being violently murdered, fearing for your own life. I mean, I I can't imagine what those kids are going through right now.

Mark Odland: 16:43

Oh, yeah. Well and and you know this is coming right off the heels of the shooting at the Catholic church

Zack Carter: 16:49

Right.

Mark Odland: 16:50

In in in school in Minneapolis, which is Right. Where, you know, where I'm based out of here in Minnesota. And so we're we're expecting that our clinic will will be as the days and weeks go by, hopefully we'll be in a place to help, right? Because every gosh, how could that not be traumatic to be anywhere close to something like that? Yeah.

Zack Carter: 17:10

Right. And then you have the, like the murder of the young girl in North Carolina. This has been a crappy week. This has been a crappy week, man. Yeah.

Zack Carter: 17:20

So

Mark Odland: 17:21

alright. Well,

Zack Carter: 17:21

let's we can we've got acceptance, number one. Mhmm. So we're trying we're trying to work through the acceptance of the reality of the loss. Next, we're processing the pain of grief. Right?

Zack Carter: 17:33

So next, we're we're processing it. So we've we've talked a lot in our podcast about processing emotions, you know. So, you know, what does processing look like? It's, you know, taking the time to cry. Right?

Zack Carter: 17:49

Taking the time to weep. If you were close to Charlie or if you followed him and you're, like, you're feeling that lump in the throat, you're feeling the tears well up, you don't need to swallow that back down. Right? You can let that happen. Right?

Zack Carter: 18:03

That's part of the the process. That's part of the healing is to like allow that to happen. You know, we wanna be careful where we're doing it, you know Sure. Driving, pull over to the side of the road. You know, if you're at work, if you need to excuse yourself, okay, like like do that, you know.

Zack Carter: 18:17

But it it's it's okay to to let that stuff out. If you're feeling anger, I know that that was one of the emotions I definitely went through was Oh, yeah. Was so much anger. And I've been thinking a lot lot about that, especially when you hear people you know, my my wife was telling me this more. I got her permission to share this that she had some acquaintances that blocked her and kicked her out of their social media feeds because I think she posted a video of Charlie Kirk, and it said something like she said something like, god, family, country in that order.

Zack Carter: 18:58

Like, that's all she said. And, like, posted a video of Charlie talking about his faith. And one of these people posted, like, you know, yeah. I'm losing a lot of friends now that are posting about Charlie Kirk. I'm kicking them out of my life.

Zack Carter: 19:13

And so my wife happened to be one of them. She's not even particularly, like, outspoken or particularly political. She was just kinda like, look at this young man that died, that has a family. And it's like, just as a good reminder for us, like, put God first in our life, put our family second, and put our country third. And so so we're gonna feel anger.

Zack Carter: 19:36

You know? A lot of people are gonna be feeling anger, not just about why this happened, but about maybe some of the reactions that are that are coming from people who may not have agreed with Charlie Kirk. So were you gonna say something, Mark?

Mark Odland: 19:50

Well, yeah, I just it makes sense. I I've I've definitely felt felt angry myself and and and to talk to friends who are feeling that way. And there's a close relationship between anger and helplessness and also anger and injustice. Mhmm. I saw I think it was on Megan Kelly.

Mark Odland: 20:10

I saw, father Mike, Catholic priest who actually serves at, here in in Duluth, Minnesota where I live. Mhmm. And he was on there, and they talked about anger. And and his his response, I think Megan was kinda beating herself up a little bit. I know I shouldn't feel anger.

Mark Odland: 20:25

And he's like, no. That's a very appropriate appropriate emotion right now for what's happening. Of course, if that turns into to to deep bitterness and resentment and a thirst for revenge, then, yeah, that's not good. Right? But but but anger that gets our attention, that that wakes us up, and that opens our eyes to to be thoughtful and responsible with how we can, be proactive to make the world a better place.

Mark Odland: 20:58

Well, that maybe that gets towards some, you know, toward the end of this conversation about things we can do, as well. But, but I think it's so good you're bringing that up, Zach, about processing, the need to process. And and for a lot of the guys that we work with, they're thinking of themselves, I don't wanna break down in front of my my kid. I don't I don't wanna show weakness. Mhmm.

Mark Odland: 21:19

Sure. Like you said, use discernment, but at some point, you gotta let it out. Yeah. Maybe maybe not, you know, maybe it's maybe it's in worship if your pastor's preaching a sermon on it and and you're like, you know what? I'm like, some teaser, tears are gonna roll down my face and and, you know, maybe that's okay because because because that's the thing we talk about too at Lion Counseling, right, is we're simultaneously uplifting a lot of, you know, traditional values of of men providing and protecting their families but also, we're talking about being creative about loving our families, about leaving a legacy and then part of that is is, making sure we're wholehearted as we face these things and that we're emotionally available.

Mark Odland: 22:04

And and we're kind of aware and present to be there for our families, to be available emotionally, to to support them because part of protecting and providing is is being emotionally in tune with the people that we love. And if we're just bottled up and suppressing it all completely, it's gonna come out sideways at the wrong time and the wrong way, and we're not gonna be as effective in, loving others around us well. So so I see the wellness wheel behind you, Zach. That's been, one of our our our ongoing jokes. Yeah.

Mark Odland: 22:39

Yeah. And so it's one of those things. No. No. We're not gonna be like every other therapist.

Mark Odland: 22:45

That's another podcast about, like, all we're gonna focus on is emotions and you know? But it's, like but it's part of being a human being. And Right. And and so I think it's it's and that's a lot of it's a place where a lot of us as guys can stretch ourselves a little bit. And and you can be totally, like, a engineer about it and just be totally analytical and be like, there's cause and effect.

Mark Odland: 23:05

If we don't find a way to process our grief, there will be there will be an effect, and it's not gonna be good. And so it's just it's just kinda in that sense, it's it's just very much like zeros and ones. It's like there's there's kind of a lot of the universe, if you will, built in about how our brains process grief. And Mhmm. Yes.

Mark Odland: 23:24

There's variety between person, between, you know, person to person. But I'd say in our experience, you know, from what you're saying, Zach, is, like, for the most part, if if if us as guys, we we bottle up our grief, it's typically doesn't gonna go well long term. So

Zack Carter: 23:41

That's so good. Well and and I love I love what you were bringing up around helplessness and injustice. And so there is a there is righteous anger. Like anger is not bad. Right?

Zack Carter: 23:52

Anger is not bad. But we do wanna understand it, understand what's going on. And so as as I was feeling angry, you know, we've talked about this before that anger anger anger is a secondary emotion. Right? There's something that's happening first.

Zack Carter: 24:02

There's something happening underneath the surface. So it can be the helplessness, the the feelings of injustice. And I was just kinda like processing myself and I'm like, what so what am I feeling? And I'm like, well, I'm feeling fear. Right?

Zack Carter: 24:13

It's like this is this is a scary time that we talk. It was just talking. That's all he did. That's all that's what he did wrong, was he talked and he got killed for it. Deep sadness, you know, once again, thinking about his wife, thinking about his kids, thinking about my own wife and kids, and the sadness.

Zack Carter: 24:34

So many people seeing such a violent video, especially once again on the heels of, like, what happened in North Carolina with the stabbing of the the young girl. The shooting at this church is just like this deep sadness, despair, disgust, feeling vulnerable, feeling threatened. Right? And so it's like all these different emotions that can we can be feeling all these different things all at the same time and especially as guys what that comes up as is I feel fine or I feel mad. Right?

Zack Carter: 25:05

Are the things that it comes up as, is like, how are doing? I'm fine, right? Or I'm pissed off. So, you know Yeah. What we wanna do in the processing of our pain and grief is trying to dig in a little deeper.

Zack Carter: 25:18

We talked about you can use an emotion wheel to, like,

Mark Odland: 25:20

dig in

Zack Carter: 25:21

a little bit deeper and, like, actually specify all the different things you're feeling. It's not just anger. Like, it's a lot of stuff underneath the surface.

Mark Odland: 25:27

For sure. For sure, Zach. Yeah. And and I just tell people too. I know we we often tag team because, like, you do so much good stuff with coaching and with cognitive behavioral therapy.

Mark Odland: 25:37

Mhmm. And you help so many guys process through difficult thoughts and emotions and understand their relationship to their behaviors as well, how they're all interconnected. Yep. And then there are there are times when you'll run into someone who, because of their trauma, somehow it becomes like a just like a a like, here in Minnesota, that metaphor is, like, we got all these rivers and lakes. Right?

Mark Odland: 25:59

So it's like a beaver dam stuck in the middle of the the river, and so it prevents the flow. It prevents the process you know, the processing from continuing. And so if you're going through these steps and processing is stuck, no matter what you do, you you just can't get past a memory. You can't get it out of your head. You can't move on to the next feeling, to the next thought.

Mark Odland: 26:20

Then some trauma therapy like EMDR can really be helpful. And and, man, like, when you're saying, Zach, like, what about the people who are there at that event? You know, what are the people who are at that Catholic school? One of my thoughts is, man, I hope they've got a lot of local EMDR therapists because and I hope they know that this this can heal, like it really can heal. They just they just need to get connected with the right resources.

Mark Odland: 26:43

So

Zack Carter: 26:44

Right. Yeah. That's so good. So we've we've got if you have physical sensations that are coming up, let those sensations happen. If we've got emotions, identify those emotions, name them.

Zack Carter: 26:58

Right? We name it to tame it. You could talk to people. Right? Whether this is a person, you know, that you were close to that died or whether it was the situation around Charlie Kirk or any of the other situations we're talking about.

Zack Carter: 27:11

Talking to people there's a reason counseling works is that talking to people does heal. Right? And if you're like, I'm just not ready to talk to people about it, okay, then journal. Like, write it out. Write your thoughts out.

Zack Carter: 27:22

It's gonna help you process your thoughts. It's gonna help you process your emotions. It's gonna help you process your grief. And the last thing around processing grief before we move on to the next point is, you know, you can talk about your regrets. You can talk about, you know, if you have a loved one that passed and all the things you wish you had done, all the things that you wish you had done different.

Zack Carter: 27:40

Like, that's okay. Like, talk that stuff out and and we'll get to the next step after after you talk that out. But, you know, these are these are the different ways that you can process your pain and grief. Any last thoughts before we move on to the third step?

Mark Odland: 27:55

No. It's it's just really good stuff, Zach. I appreciate you sharing that. So

Zack Carter: 27:59

Okay. Perfect. So the third task in this model is adjusting to the world without the deceased. Right? So now now what are we doing instead?

Zack Carter: 28:13

Right? So if, you know, your wife passed away, if there were certain tasks that she did, you've got a series of problems now. If we're just to speak of it like an engineer, right, like you were saying earlier, you have a series of problems. If she helps with the income, where's that income gonna come from? If she helped with certain tasks or chores in the house, who's gonna do those now?

Zack Carter: 28:37

If you have kids, who's gonna raise those kids now? Right? Who's gonna love you? Who who who's gonna be your best friend? So you have you have a series of problems that now need to be solved.

Zack Carter: 28:51

Right? This is what Charlie's family are gonna have to go through is what do we do now that dad's not around? And so the next step as you've processed your grief is like, okay. Like, who's taken over some of these chores now? Like, do we have to cut back in some of our spending?

Zack Carter: 29:10

Do we need to make some changes? Do I need to make do I need to get an additional job? What is the process of finding a new partner, a new spouse? And beginning to work work that process. Right?

Zack Carter: 29:22

Beginning to design the new life now that this person isn't there. And so, you know, with a situation like a Charlie Kirk, it's like, okay, if you followed his social media, if you followed his videos, it's now the the the painful process of like, alright. Who's the voice that I now need to find that I trust, which is difficult to do. You know, if you went to his events, what are the kind of events I need to do instead? And so that's kind of the stage we're in right now is like as we process this pain and grief, and this is probably a little soon now because this is really fresh, this is really Oh, yeah.

Zack Carter: 29:58

But that's gonna be our next step is like, alright. Like, now how do we pick up the pieces? How do we start to redesign the life? Because we we assume certain people are gonna be there forever. And then the shock of this, when our world goes from order into chaos, trying to get it back into order can be very messy, very difficult, but that's that's the step we have to take.

Mark Odland: 30:24

Yeah. Yeah. That's right. And and like you said, Zach, it's for a lot of people, the these action steps will kind of trickle out in delayed manner. Right?

Mark Odland: 30:36

The first the first might be like, Oh my gosh. Now I'm supposed to plan a funeral. If it's your loved one, how am I supposed to do that? I'm I'm devastated. But remarkably, sometimes our brains are able to compartmentalize and we meet with people and we're hopefully blessed to be surrounded by friends and family who can walk us through those moments.

Mark Odland: 30:57

And then there's an outpouring of support. And then after a few weeks, all of a sudden, you might be in a house that feels very empty. You might be all the support, all the people who genuinely love and care for you and supported you through the funeral and and brought the meals and and sent the flowers, sometimes that kind of fades after a few weeks and precisely at the time when you even need more support in some ways because now the reality is settling in. And, yeah, you see you see the pile of bills on the counter, and you're like, oh, my spouse used to pay these. Oh, what about all these passwords and these accounts?

Mark Odland: 31:41

Like, can I get into them? What what happens? How do I do this? There's a lot of practical things that they people will have to face. And and then sometimes it's, you know, typically years for some people before they get to a place where they're even thinking about, you know, what could would I ever open my heart up to to to love again, you know, that kind of thing.

Mark Odland: 32:03

And in the in the moment, some people are like, can't even imagine it. I can't even imagine doing that. But then you look back, you know, ten, twenty year you know, look ahead ten or twenty years, and sometimes you look back and you're like, well, in the midst of these tragedies, god finds a way of bringing more love into people's lives in unexpected ways. And and that doesn't minimize the pain one bit in the moment if someone's going through it. There's almost no consolation in some ways.

Mark Odland: 32:31

I mean, there's even those biblical verses about, like, a woman being refusing to be comforted in her grief. Just it's almost like there's something about it that's like, I can't be rushed out of this. And yet even though I can't be rushed out of it artificially, if we can keep in mind these these steps like you're talking about, Zach, gives us, like, some kind of roadmap through the fog, right? It's like you're on the ship drifting in the ocean and you're overcome by fog and he is disorienting. Where am I?

Mark Odland: 33:02

Where am I going? Where's my compass? And even though it's it's not perfect, I think it's so important that you're you're laying out these steps for our listeners because it can give us somewhat of a guide, somewhat of a north star to say, at least I can point in this direction. At least feel like I'm moving in a moving in a direction somehow. Right?

Mark Odland: 33:24

And that's better. It is better than just than just hoping that time heals all wounds, which I think in my experience is really not true. I think it it's time can heal some things, but it's typically time plus intentionality. Mhmm. And a lot a lot of God's grace that actually makes the healing happen.

Zack Carter: 33:44

Yeah. Yeah. A 100%. That's well said. Yeah.

Zack Carter: 33:46

I've I've had numerous clients that still have regrets sixty years later. You know, they're thinking about something they said or did sixty years ago that in some ways you're like, why is that big deal? Right? And so it's like, yeah, time time can sometimes heal. But a lot of times we have to, like, process and figure out and learn and change and grow in order for the healing to occur.

Zack Carter: 34:13

That was well said.

Mark Odland: 34:14

So Yeah. Thanks, Zach.

Zack Carter: 34:16

Getting to the last step, We've got accepting the loss. We've got processing the pain and the grief, adjusting to a world without the deceased, and then finding an enduring connection with the deceased. Okay. So what the heck does that mean? You know, the goal is not to like push them aside and say, okay, now we don't think about this person anymore.

Zack Carter: 34:45

And, you know, we forget this person. That that's not the goal. The goal is actually to incorporate the person and what they meant to you into your life in a meaningful way and to grow. And so, you know, what does that look like if it was a loved one that that happened with? Well, it's, you know, keeping a photo of them by your bedside or wearing jewelry or clothes or using gifts that they they've given you to kinda remind you about them.

Zack Carter: 35:16

You can continue to talk about them and what they meant to you with friends and family. You can pursue values that they embodied. Right? So if this is a father or mother, hey, what did they do well? What what were how what were the good impacts that they had on my life?

Zack Carter: 35:33

How do I begin to embody the traits that they had that were so meaningful to me? The hard work, the love, the caring, the gentleness. And if they were a person that weren't good to you, right? It's like, okay, so what do I learn from them? So that what what do I not wanna do?

Zack Carter: 35:53

And that's one of the things I've been thinking about in this process is, you know, it's I I hope not. But if at some point, the roles are reversed and someone maybe politically on the right hurts or kills someone that's on the political left, I I would hope that people on the right could be more gracious to those that are hurting on the left and say, hey, I can see why you'd be hurting like this. We had Charlie Kirk and it was so painful for us. And so it has to be painful for you guys and not to demonize people or to block them on social media. It's like, okay, we're gonna we're gonna learn to do the opposite.

Zack Carter: 36:34

Right? If vengeance is god's, alright, let him have it. Right? And maybe a verse that needs to be in our mind is, you know, forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do. In our grief and in our hurting, having people being so thirsty, maybe that's our prayer is forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do.

Mark Odland: 36:54

Yeah. So That's powerful, Zach. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Mark Odland: 36:59

I appreciate that. And I think I think, like, what I what I'm the chatter I'm here online and just within my own circles is this, you know, I'm blessed to have a lot of solid Christian guys in my life, different ages, different, you know, different places in life. But I think the theme is this sense of I don't want to be this passive man who's sitting by and watching my country crumble around me and watching my my community become more and more unsafe. And so there's this desire for action. But within this worldview, at least within Christianity, there's this constraining force, like you said, of love your enemies, pray for those who persecute you, forgive them, father, for they know not what they do.

Mark Odland: 37:45

And that doesn't mean sitting on your butt and doing nothing, But it means there's checks and balances within our own worldview that keep us from sinking to the same level, right as someone who would murder someone for having different ideas. Right? And so that's that's a dynamic tension and a paradoxical thing within our faith. But thank God it's there. Because if there weren't a force like that to constrain anger, there would be how much more violence.

Mark Odland: 38:20

And we need look no further than what happens in a lot of our big cities to see a never ending cycle of revenge killings. Right? And so so that's that's getting a little more systemic and a little bit more into the community versus just the individual grief. But I I'm just thinking about the guys listening. And and what I don't want you to hear is is that Zach and I are saying, as Christians, we just sit back and, you know, like, sleep sheep to the slaughter.

Mark Odland: 38:53

Right? Mhmm. But at the same time, it's like, we are different. We are different, and we're called to something higher. And we are called to see the humanity in our neighbor.

Mark Odland: 39:07

And as Jesus said in his parable, you know, as as the man asked, who is my neighbor? In the parable of the good Samaritan, it was the man who showed mercy to the person who was from a completely different background than him. And so this is preaching to myself, Zach, because that that helplessness and anger I feel, It's like I wanna find some outlet for healthy, productive action. But how do I'm not I'm not above becoming petty and and sinking into some, you know, not helpful comments or thoughts or actions. And so, like, thank god that he's anchoring me and and and trying to help us work through this in in a in a in a good way.

Mark Odland: 39:50

I think the last thing I'd say about it is if you're if you're out there hearing that I should just, okay, just have warm, fuzzy, happy feelings toward, the murderer and all these things. I'm like, no, like that forgiveness is something as Christians were called to, but we need to feel the anger. This is back to processing emotions, right? We need to feel the feelings first. And, forgiveness is not as simple as snapping your fingers, and it's over.

Mark Odland: 40:16

It's done. Right? That's, that's complicated. That's a whole another podcast that, that, we'll we'll have available for you guys. But maybe one on a big tangent there, Zach, I don't know.

Mark Odland: 40:28

But

Zack Carter: 40:29

That wasn't a tangent all. So that Yeah. I love the nuance. Right? So it's it's forgiving, it's having grace, it's having compassion, and yet at the same time, it's not sitting on your hands.

Zack Carter: 40:41

And so that's part of this step. Right? And so we've we're processing the emotions. We're allowed to be angry. We're allowed to be mad, and all the other different things that we're feeling.

Zack Carter: 40:50

And at the same time, it's like, okay, if Charlie's message spoke to you in some way, okay, like donate to Turning Point. Right? Send kind words to his wife and kids. Get involved in political action. Get involved in your church.

Zack Carter: 41:10

Like, for me, it was I I just wanna connect with my family even more. Like, I just wanna hold my baby even tighter. I just wanna kiss my wife. I just wanna, like, cuddle. Like, last night, we're just kinda cuddling on the couch together.

Zack Carter: 41:23

And it's like, hey, this is an opportunity to connect with the people I love. I just reached out today to some friends and was like, hey, we should, like, link up. Like, we haven't seen each other in a few weeks. Like, let's let's connect. And so it's a both and.

Zack Carter: 41:38

It's you can forgive, but you can also take appropriate action moving in the direction to bring justice to the assassin. Like, no. You don't you don't get away with that. And so as far as we know, they just caught the guy at at the time of this recording. They've said that a couple times, and so we don't know.

Zack Carter: 41:59

But as of right now, they're pretty confident they got the guy. It's like, yeah. No. That guy, we need to seek justice. And Yeah.

Zack Carter: 42:09

You know, as people in the country, you know, hey. How do we take Charlie's message, the the parts that we might agree with, the the things like the love and the compassion and the open dialogue? How do we engage in that moving forward and doing it in a way that is loving while still being firm?

Mark Odland: 42:30

Well, that's that's so powerful, Zach. Because at the end of the day, if someone's thinking, if someone's devastated by the loss of Charlie, and the impulse is to do something other than what Charlie modeled his whole life after, it's just, it's at least room to pause and say, we're accepting in the spirit of of Charlie's life and and and one let's just take one principle he stood for, freedom of speech. Here in America that I mean, I I know there are differences of opinion, but, man, I'm I'm a big free speech guy. I think it's kind of a an axiomatic principle that if you don't have the freedom to to speak, you don't have the freedom to think, you open the door for untold sufferings that we've seen repeat itself in many other countries. And so, man, the build the ability to compassionately talk with someone who vehemently disagrees with us, And to do so, seeing their humanity and to let the best ideas win.

Mark Odland: 43:33

And to you know, that that's just something Charlie believed in in so strongly. And I sure hope that we're in a place in society where that can continue. And And because our our republic, our our country, our kids are depending on it. Right? It's it's it's pretty important stuff.

Mark Odland: 43:50

Mhmm. So that's that's big picture stuff, but then back to the individual. Right? We don't wanna rot from the inside out with with bitterness and and and resentment and and vengeance and hatred. Right?

Mark Odland: 44:05

We feel our feelings. If you are feeling that, alright. Feel it. Feel it. Process it.

Mark Odland: 44:10

Journal. Talk. And then remember who you are and and who then the kind of man you wanna be. And and as the dust settles, by god's grace, hopefully, we can find a way forward through this both as individuals who are grieving and and as a country. That's so good, Mark.

Zack Carter: 44:28

Well, just as we wrap, just as a remind reminder everybody, so what what are the four four steps as we process our grief, as we move through our grieving? We we accept the reality of the loss, the reality of if it's our loved one, that our loved one is no longer with us presently, but they they might be with us

Mark Odland: 44:47

in

Zack Carter: 44:47

heaven. Processing our pain and grief. Right? We're not just shoving it down. We're not just swallowing it down.

Zack Carter: 44:54

We're, like, actually engaging with it and actually moving through it instead of ignoring it. We're adjusting to the world without the deceased. Right? So we're rebuilding our life. Right?

Zack Carter: 45:05

What does our life look now look like now that Charlie's not around or our loved one's not around? And how do we find that enduring connection with the person who passed away? Right? So how are we taking what we've learned from them, good or bad, and saying like, okay. Now I'm gonna take the best parts of them or the opposite if they weren't a particularly good person.

Zack Carter: 45:28

Like, how do I do the opposite so that the people around me and the people that I'm in contact with feel loved and cared about?

Mark Odland: 45:37

Yeah. Yeah. That's so that's so good, Zach. It's so it's so important. I hope that that provides some helpful helpful advice for all of you listening in the midst of all this chaos and emotion.

Mark Odland: 45:50

And, you know, Zach and I aren't arrogant enough to think that there aren't a lot of good therapists and counselors out there who can help, and and we we need some good ones. But if if you feel like there's something about me or Zach just listening to us where you feel like we might be able to help you. We're here we're here for that reason, and we'd be happy to step into that space and walk with you through that. So trusting that the right people will hear this if they need that help, and and and god bless you all for listening. I know this is a hard time, but we'll get through it together.

Mark Odland: 46:24

So until next time. Alright. Bye, everyone. Bye.