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You know that sinking feeling when you wake up with a hangover and think: “I’m never doing this again”? We’ve all been there. But what happens when you follow through? Sonia Kahlon and Kathleen Killen can tell you, because they did it! They went from sisters-in-law, to Sisters in Sobriety.
In this podcast, Sonia and Kathleen invite you into their world, as they navigate the ups and downs of sobriety, explore stories of personal growth and share their journey of wellness and recovery.
Get ready for some real, honest conversations about sobriety, addiction, and everything in between. Episodes will cover topics such as: reaching emotional sobriety, how to make the decision to get sober, adopting a more mindful lifestyle, socializing without alcohol, and much more.
Whether you’re sober-curious, seeking inspiration and self-care through sobriety, or embracing the alcohol-free lifestyle already… Tune in for a weekly dose of vulnerability, mutual support and much needed comic relief. Together, let’s celebrate the transformative power of sisterhood in substance recovery!
Kathleen Killen is a registered psychotherapist (qualifying) and certified coach based in Ontario, Canada. Her practice is centered on relational therapy and she specializes in couples and working with individuals who are navigating their personal relationships.
Having been through many life transitions herself, Kathleen has made it her mission to help others find the support and communication they need in their closest relationships. To find out more about Kathleen’s work, check out her website.
Sonia Kahlon is a recovery coach and former addict. She grappled with high-functioning alcohol use disorder throughout her life, before getting sober in 2016.
Over the last five years, she has appeared on successful sobriety platforms, such as the Story Exchange, the Sobriety Diaries podcast and the Sober Curator, to tell her story of empowerment and addiction recovery, discuss health and midlife sobriety, and share how she is thriving without alcohol.
Your sobriety success story starts today, with Kathleen and Sonia. Just press play!
[00:00:00]
[00:00:00] Kathleen: Hi, we're Kathleen and Sonia and you're listening to Sisters in [00:01:00] Sobriety. Thanks for being here. I'm Sonia and I'm with my sister in sobriety, actually my sister in law, Kathleen. Kathleen, how are you doing today?
[00:01:07] Kathleen: I am really good. Yeah. I'm feeling really good today. How about you?
[00:01:11] Sonia: I'm good. I love Christmas. I love the lights and the trees. And so I'm in Toronto and I was walking around and there's a tree in every building andthey put up the tree in my building and I just I love it.
[00:01:23] Kathleen: I love it too. I love it too. There's like, I'm not in the city, but I'm in a suburb and there's lots of lights out. We, we put our tree up really early this year. I think I feel like I needed a little Christmas cheer and it's been great. I love having it.
[00:01:38] Sonia: I'm taking my niece to a tree lighting Thursday night
[00:01:41] Kathleen: You are.
[00:01:43] Sonia: and there's probably gonna be snow on the ground.
[00:01:44] Kathleen: Yes, there will be. It's gonna look like a Hallmark movie. It is. It's gonna be like a Hallmark movie. They do the little tree lighting. It's really beautiful.
[00:01:54] Sonia: It might be a Hallmark movie, but me and her are gonna be like, cold. Let's go home. This [00:02:00] sucks.
[00:02:00] Kathleen: sure.
[00:02:01] Sonia: Yeah. , why is it so cold out?
[00:02:04] Sonia: Ah
[00:02:05] Sonia: it is bone I know people are like, oh, it's cold in Pennsylvania too. It is. It's colder here. I don't know if it's the wind or what
[00:02:12] Kathleen: Well, it's like eight hours North of you.
[00:02:15] Sonia: Yeah, but even if the temperature reads the same
[00:02:18] Kathleen: Yeah, it is cold. It's cold today. Actually. I just came back from a walk with dog and it was, uh, yeah. It was chilly. So today's episode is about navigating the holiday season while staying sober. The holidays can be joyful, uh, but also challenging, especially when you're committed to sobriety. There's the social pressure and the constant presence of alcoholic parties.
[00:02:41] Kathleen: And not to mention the emotional triggers that can come from family gatherings or the stress of the season.
[00:02:48] Sonia: And there's another topic that I feel like people don't talk about which is how difficult the holidays can be for those With family estrangement or struggling with grief And we both [00:03:00] know what it feels like to face those challenges and we're both going to be facing them this year so We're going to share how we've made it through past holidays and give you some practical tips to help you do the same.
[00:03:10] Kathleen: So grab your favorite non alcoholic drink, cozy up, and let's get into it. Together we will explore how to make this holiday season the best one yet. So Sonia, what are the main reasons the holiday season is difficult for those avoiding alcohol?
[00:03:26] Sonia: Yeah, I think there's the typical minefield right of triggers. So there's alcohol everywhere This your schedule is turned upside down There's financial stress a lot of people overextend There's the trigger of memories and feelings And traveling, hosting, but I think that the biggest trigger I know for me is that the complicated family dynamic.
[00:03:52] Sonia: So we have estrangement and we have grief and both of those can really lead you to feeling lonely and [00:04:00] isolated. Why do you think the holidays can be so difficult?
[00:04:03] Kathleen: So, uh, I think that stress from family can really, really make holidays difficult. I also think that there's a lot of expectation that goes with having the holidays. Like everything needs to be perfect. I know I have fallen into that in past years myself. And then I also think that the amount of labor required to meet those expectations.
[00:04:26] Kathleen: So as a relationship and couples therapist, what I First of all, my practice is like so full before the holidays and after, because what I am really seeing is there's usually a lot of labor for one person in the family to, get all the Christmas presents, if that's what you do, or, to arrange the gatherings.
[00:04:48] Kathleen: That can be really, really stressful.
[00:04:51] Sonia: What might this mean for our listeners?
[00:04:54] Sonia: I mean, I think it means that they need to be a little more mindful of themselves, what they're [00:05:00] feeling and their environment and figuring out what their triggers for drinking or excessive drinking are. And so I think it's really a time that you need to dive into like self reflection and self awareness.
[00:05:15] Sonia: Um, so Kathleen in the last episode we were talking about grief and we talked about how you recently experienced a loss close to two months ago. How are you feeling about the holiday season coming up in light of that and what types of feelings are you having?
[00:05:30] Kathleen: Yeah. I, I, I am feeling a multitude of emotions and feelings around this time. I have been missing my dad a lot more. So my dad passed away two months ago and I, I, this is the first, since it was two months ago, I'm experiencing a lot of firsts. without him. And, um, for me, Remembrance Day was really hard because he was a veteran and there was like a lot around that [00:06:00] for him.
[00:06:00] Kathleen: And so I really felt his loss on that day. And then, yeah, I mean, my, my dad and I, we haven't lived in the same house for a long time. We didn't actually spend our holidays together for a long time. there's no Traditions necessarily that we still had, but I am going to miss seeing him obviously.
[00:06:19] Kathleen: And I already noticed, I didn't buy him a Christmas gift this year and that was really weird and hard. And I was my list of Christmas gifts, doing all my Christmas shopping and he wasn't on it. So that, That led to some, deep feelings of sadness and I'm obviously, you know, it's the first Christmas that my mom is having without her husband of, 46 years.
[00:06:43] Kathleen: So, um, just concerned about that too. It's, it's a hard season. It's definitely a hard season.
[00:06:50] Sonia: Yeah, so how do you approach the holidays when you're grieving the loss of
[00:06:59] Sonia: a loved
[00:06:59] Sonia: [00:07:00] one?
[00:07:00] Kathleen: I think that there's a lot of self compassion. So I had to force myself a little bit for my daughter to at first, like put up the things early and she's really into it and like focusing on the Christmas for her too. But also knowing the self compassion for myself that I'm human and I just lost a parent.
[00:07:20] Kathleen: And so it's okay for me not to be 100%. And for me, it might not be the most wonderful time of the year right now. And that's okay, but I'm also still embracing those little moments of joy. Like I am seeing the joy that she has around the holiday season. I am still like, Loving the lights. I'm doing all those things.
[00:07:44] Kathleen: So I'm approaching it as like honoring that my dad is no longer with us for this holiday and all future holidays, but that there are still so many good things that I've really enjoy.
[00:07:57] Sonia: So what traditions are you [00:08:00] going to keep or change in memory of your dad?
[00:08:04] Sonia: I've been
[00:08:04] Sonia: wondering this.
[00:08:05] Kathleen: Oh, really? Yeah. So I, you know, we have traditions in my household and you've been a part of them for many years and we, you and I have also created traditions for our family in a sense. So we do our pajamas. I never did that before you. Before yeah, so we do that and I know that's like a common thing people do but we have traditions And I am going to now I don't drink obviously But my dad loved german beer and he has like a stein that he would have this beer in And so I think i'll be putting a drink in it or i'll be putting out I'm also going to make one of the dishes that he really loved.
[00:08:48] Kathleen: He loved yorkshire pudding So i'm gonna make yorkshire pudding. So how do we continue the bonds with our loved ones to have their memory alive? And I think on Christmas morning, I [00:09:00] will light a candle for him. I do that a lot actually. And then I also have his picture out. Maybe, I also have been having this memory when I was growing up.
[00:09:09] Sonia: He would lift me up and put, have me put the star on the Christmas tree. So when I did that this year, when I put the star on the Christmas tree, like I really thought of him. I really took a moment and I felt him around me. I love that. So how can you honor that grief while still finding moments of joy and not feeling guilty?
[00:09:34] Kathleen: I think gratitude, Gratitudecan give people the eye roll like, oh, gratitude, but actually like gratitude is so, so transformative in life. And so I'm grateful for all those Christmases I had with him. I'm grateful for the Christmas I had last year with him.
[00:09:50] Kathleen: And I'm also focused on those happy memories that I had with him. I, like I just mentioned with putting the star on the Christmas tree, like that came up for me. [00:10:00] And so, I can honor the grief I'm having and saying, yeah, I'm sad. I'm sad that my dad isn't here anymore. but I'm also so grateful for the joy and the times I had with him.
[00:10:12] Kathleen: And also I'm grateful for the amazing experience I'm having, with you this year, with my daughter, with the rest of my family. So, uh, gratitude is a big, a big piece of that. What do you think, some ways, Sonia, what are some ways to navigate feelings of loneliness that can be really, heightened during the holidays?
[00:10:33] Sonia: Yeah, I think that for me, the big thing is to connect with your chosen family. So people that make you feel good and see the best in you and are supportive. And this is big, but allowing yourself to feel good. sad. so my birthday is the end of October and every year starting that, around that time, I'm sad that I don't have a relationship with my parents and my brother.
[00:10:59] Sonia: And [00:11:00] so for a while I would beat myself up about it, but It's real. And so I just have to not judge it and it makes me human. And journaling and talking to my therapist are both things I do to deal with that. I think I do this too, but volunteering helps.
[00:11:16] Sonia: So local shelter or soup kitchen or community center, it really shifts. Yeah. your focus from loneliness to connection and gratitude and you get to help other people. and then there's, of course, like we talk a lot about self care. So, treat yourself the way you want to be. the way you would want a close friend to be treated if they were going through it, and, and set boundaries.
[00:11:36] Sonia: And I don't necessarily have this issue, but, if interactions with certain family members are more harmful than they are healing, then you can limit or avoid them. So we've talked about protecting your peace, and that is really an act of self love.
[00:11:50] Kathleen: Mm hmm.
[00:11:50] Kathleen: Mm hmm. It really, really is. Yeah. It is, for sure. So, this is a hard subject for you, and, um, but how do you [00:12:00] explain or discuss family estrangement with other people during holiday gatherings? Mm hmm.
[00:12:05] Sonia: Yeah,it doesn't come up for me, A lot because the people I'm estranged from are like also the people that people close to me are estranged from so like that you're estranged from too. So your daughter, like my niece is also estranged from her dad, my brother and her grandparents, my parents.
[00:12:24] Sonia: And we can talk about how it sucks and share our feelings. we willMake jokes about it. Um, but with other people, I think you just have to set boundaries and these things are really complicated and, and especially, and I don't have this problem, but especially when you have people in between you and that estranged person, you don't want to make it more difficult by starting a game of telephone.
[00:12:48] Sonia: So I think you can decide before, what are you comfortable sharing? how much do you want to disclose that estrangement. you can have a short, neutral response, like, hey, things are [00:13:00] complicated. Um, you can redirect the conversation, like, ah, I just don't want to get into that, but tell me more about you or whatever you're going through.
[00:13:09] Sonia: And so, yeah, I feel like people are curious, but you don't have to engage, right? And so you can say I understand why, why you're asking, but it's really not something I want to talk about. And so, yeah, mostly I have that with people I'm not super close to, like my neighbors or not super close friends will be like, Oh, are you seeing your parents for the holidays?
[00:13:32] Sonia: be like, yeah, you know, things are. But, but I will be seeing, my nieces and, other people in my family. So, yeah,
[00:13:41] Sonia: it's
[00:13:42] Kathleen: Does it sting? someone asks you that? Yeah.
[00:13:45] Sonia: it stings. And I think it's embarrassing, for me because I, for me, it makes me feel like I did something wrong, like that I'm a crappy person because my parents don't talk to [00:14:00] me, right?
[00:14:00] Sonia: What kind of monster do you have to be for your parents not to talk to you? And so, yeah, my therapist also says, that's the cliff notes version that you tell yourself.
[00:14:12] Kathleen: Yeah, it is the CliffsNotes version,
[00:14:14] Sonia: yeah. And so,
[00:14:15] Sonia: It's tough because I don't want to go into the long form with right? And so, yeah, it stings.
[00:14:23] Sonia: But it also, you know, it's funny. You know what it's similar to? I know, I love talking about this divorce, but it's similar to like people asking about like my ex cheating. Like for some reason it makes me feel like I did something wrong. Right? Like, your husband doesn't cheat unless you, you know, like drove him to it.
[00:14:44] Sonia: Like, parents don't abandon their kids unless you like, I cannot imagine a thing. Like, so the closest I have to kids is like my nieces. I cannot imagine anything they could do
[00:14:55] Kathleen: Mm
[00:14:56] Sonia: that would make me not talk to them.
[00:14:58] Kathleen: Mm hmm.[00:15:00]
[00:15:00] Sonia: So yeah.
[00:15:01] Kathleen: It's interesting, though, because that, thought alone, right, like, I can't imagine anything they could do that would make me not talk to themYet, that is you as emotionally mature, seeking therapy, working on herself. And so for someone to abandon children, children, plural,
[00:15:26] Kathleen: then
[00:15:27] Kathleen: there has to be something not right in there.
[00:15:31] Kathleen: Right? Like that's not
[00:15:32] Kathleen: necessarily Yeah.
[00:15:34] Sonia: But I think inherent to like an abandoned child, you feel that, right?
[00:15:38] Sonia: Like guilt
[00:15:38] Kathleen: I'm not, I'm not disputing it a hundred percent.
[00:15:42] Sonia: yeah, it's funny, like what I, I was talking to a friend yesterday about I've worked in like prisons for years and and I've said this to you, people that are incarcerated, the thing they talk about most is their kids. And a lot of them are estranged, right, but they keep trying, they keep writing letters, and [00:16:00] they keep calling, even if they're not getting a response. And so, I always think, when my birthday comes and goes and my parents don't call, I'm like, people that are incarcerated for violent crimes! want to talk to their children, right?
[00:16:18] Sonia: How
[00:16:19] Sonia: can this, how? And so I think, yeah, I think this is part of the struggle, right? so I'm not saying I've solved it, but
[00:16:24] Kathleen: No.
[00:16:25] Sonia: but I am in the process of understanding it.
[00:16:28] Kathleen: So how do you manage societal pressure to feel festive when you're struggling? this is a struggle and, and if you're struggling with sobriety.
[00:16:40] Sonia: Yeah. I mean, I think the, the thing is to have realistic expectations. So this push to have the perfect can be really tough. And so I think focus on what's. So, um, Yeah, I think for me, um, I think it's really important to, to make your plans manageable and meaningful and simplify your plans.
[00:16:55] Sonia: If you need to, you don't have to have a large gathering. In terms of [00:17:00] sobriety I think to, yeah, you have to limit your exposure to triggers and, parties or even social media, or,amplify those feelings of inadequacy, then give yourself permission to opt out if you need to.
[00:17:11] Kathleen: Mm hmm.
[00:17:11] Sonia: And then again, yeah, have a plan for social situations.
[00:17:14] Sonia: So bring your own non alcoholic drinks if you need to, um, have responses for people like, Oh, I'm just not drinking right now. Um, And stay connected, I think, to the people you can count on. So whether it's friends or family or support groups, but people who understand what you're going through. And, and I love this, it's about progress, not perfection.
[00:17:36] Sonia: So you're doing the best you can, right? And so the goal is to get through the holidays sober and emotionally intact and then celebrate that. Progress. Do you haveanything that gives you comfort, like rituals or faith practices or personal reflections during the holidays? Like for me, I do a lot of gratitude journaling.
[00:17:57] Sonia: It's just kind of a natural thing when I'm not feeling [00:18:00] great. I'm like, Oh, poor sap. where's my family? And then I'll be like, yeah, you may not have that, but look at all this stuff you have.
[00:18:06] Kathleen: Yeah, so gratitude journaling for sure. I have been doing more journaling lately, um, actually just about my dad. And for me, I have rituals that tie in more to the end of the year. So, um, one ritual I have is on January 1st, literally every year I do this, I make a photo album from photos from the past year.
[00:18:31] Kathleen: So I upload the digital photos and I make a photo album and I love, love reflecting on those moments, good or bad in the last year. And just seeing like, wow, look at what has happened in a year. And I always have this thought of thinking. Gosh, what will the next year be? And am I going to have photos to fill an album from the next year?
[00:18:53] Kathleen: And so I love that tradition. I do it every January 1st. I also do a lot of [00:19:00] reflecting in the week between Christmas and New Year about like my year ahead, my year past. and I, I really find that time of year, starting around December 21st, like starting when winter is like this very beautiful period where you can get cozy and be introspective and, um, those are sort of the practices that I do.
[00:19:23] Sonia: Yeah. And so, what advice would you give someone to who is experiencing their first holiday after a major? loss. I know you're about to do it,
[00:19:33] Kathleen: I am about to do it.I think this is going to be different for everybody. And I think it depends on who, like, Who are what the loss is. So my first Christmas after my divorce, um, was excruciating excruciating. Um, because I actually, it was bad. I'm, I'm laughing thinking of like incidents that happened on Christmas day, like [00:20:00] it involved me, Crashing my mom's car. I don't think you know any of this,
[00:20:04] Sonia: I don't know about the car. I know that, I do know that my, my brother like flipped you off.
[00:20:12] Kathleen: she
[00:20:12] Kathleen: flipped
[00:20:12] Kathleen: me double birds, like double,
[00:20:16] Kathleen: wished him
[00:20:16] Kathleen: a Merry Christmas as we were doing in the child handover. And he flipped me double birds and started swearing at me in the driveway.
[00:20:24] Sonia: Oh, so
[00:20:26] Kathleen: so then I was so discombobulated that I backed my car into my mom's car that was in the driveway.
[00:20:34] Kathleen: Andcaused damage it wasn't just a bump So what was the question again? How do I,
[00:20:43] Sonia: What
[00:20:43] Kathleen: advice?
[00:20:44] Kathleen: Oh,
[00:20:45] Sonia: I mean,
[00:20:46] Kathleen: one that should be giving advice?
[00:20:47] Sonia: I asked you if we could cancel Christmas after my divorce.
[00:20:50] Kathleen: You
[00:20:50] Sonia: did and I wouldn't let you and I remember, I remember that you, you were like, I didn't get anyone any presents except for, for [00:21:00] daughter. Right. And I was like, that's okay. Like that's not expected.That was the best I
[00:21:05] Sonia: could
[00:21:06] Kathleen: I know, I know, but I saw that. I saw that's the best you could do and that was okay.
[00:21:11] Kathleen: And like we didn't, it's not about And so I think the advice that I would give to someone is what is your best and that's okay and hopefully you have people around you that will understand that if you're not like woohoo. The holidays, it's, it's okay. You've just experienced a loss and for some people it's getting through it and it's hard to not compare yourself to other people, but everyone has their shit going on.
[00:21:39] Kathleen: So it's hard not to look atall these like happy families together. And it's like, no, that's not, you don't know the underlying what's going on and how people are struggling. And so. The best advice I can give is again, that self compassion piece of you're just, just showing up the best that you can and know that you're human.
[00:21:59] Kathleen: Just know that you're [00:22:00] human and it's, it's, it's okay. ever since I've known you, there have been varying degrees of estrangement in your family. Either one person was not talking to someone or Like then in the next year it would shift and this was very new to me because that did not exist in my family.
[00:22:22] Kathleen: So can you tell us about how that feels and how you can cope with it?
[00:22:28] Sonia: Yeah.
[00:22:32] Sonia: I'm just starting to realize how unusual it is. that's how I grew up, right, was, um, with an estranged family. my, my mom was never talking to all her sisters at the same time, or even both her parents at the same time. and then so there are cousins that were estranged and it was hard to keep track, from year to year, like who was talking and who was not.
[00:22:52] Sonia: So especially after I moved, to the US, I would come back home, to Toronto for Christmas and be like, so who are we talking to this year? And [00:23:00] then, I think that for the last few years, especially since the divorce, it's been really tough.
[00:23:06] Sonia: And so my brother and I had been estranged for about. five years. And then when you're estranged from my brother, it means you were estranged from my parents. And so that hurts a lot. And so, yeah, like I was saying,around my birthday, I get like this anxiety, right, about going into another holiday season, without a nuclear family.
[00:23:30] Sonia: And, So I don't always act on it, right? this year I'm not going to, dealt with it early. Um, but last year, um, I did and it was disastrous. so yeah, the first Christmas after my divorce was really confusing because I, yeah, I wanted to ignore the holidays. I couldn't, and then I made plans to see my parents, hoping maybe something had changed or, you obviously, I was in such, I was clearly in such a bad emotional state that they would kind of go easy on [00:24:00] me, um, but, and at least not make it worse, but I was wrong, right?
[00:24:04] Sonia: and people, I think, who have had this type of, like, trauma know, you know from the second you walk in the
[00:24:10] Kathleen: Mm-Hmm.
[00:24:10] Sonia: that you made a mistake.
[00:24:13] Kathleen: Mm-Hmm
[00:24:14] Sonia: so, um, I knew they were looking for a fight when I walked in. And so, yeah, and I think a lot of this estrangement is about old grievances and people just want to, they just want to rehash this stuff.
[00:24:25] Sonia: And a lot of it's not even about me. And, um, A lot of it's
[00:24:29] Kathleen: most it's not about you.
[00:24:31] Sonia: most of it's about
[00:24:32] Sonia: you
[00:24:33] Kathleen: Me.
[00:24:35] Sonia: Yes! Most of it's about like, your brother's ex wife, so. And then I end up having to defend you, and my other ex sister in law, andso there, so within like 30 minutes that year, they were screaming and I'm crying and it's a mess.
[00:24:53] Kathleen: And so I left feeling like really awful. And so,Is that year they said that I [00:25:00] caused your divorce?
[00:25:01] Sonia: they sure did. They
[00:25:04] Kathleen: We can laugh at this now, everyone. We can.
[00:25:07] Sonia: oh my God, they said, they said it is her fault that, that you were divorced. And I said, did she sleep with my
[00:25:15] Sonia: husband too
[00:25:17] Sonia: And I thought that was so funny. And nobody laughed. Yeah, I was like, her
[00:25:22] Sonia: also
[00:25:23] Kathleen: I didn't.
[00:25:24] Kathleen: I didn't
[00:25:25] Kathleen: Not
[00:25:26] Sonia: my god. yeah, so I think, I think this is the problem, right? And I do this, and I did it last year too. Luckily, they, they would not see me last year. But, I think it's like such a positive, and I'm gonna leave feeling like, whole and better. And I end up just feeling Empty and worse.
[00:25:43] Kathleen: you have hope. Right? Like this is the thing is I think you have hope, like when you would reach out to them, you, you, there's still your parents, you have hope that, that you can have some kind of relationship with them. And hope is a beautiful thing. And it's, it's really hard when [00:26:00] that hope you see what the reality is for you.
[00:26:04] Sonia: Yeah. And I think that it's okay. I still have hope. Um, I don't let it affect me as much. do I have hope that they'll call on my birthday next year? Yeah, still do. Right. Um, because I think for some reason for me, if I give up on it, I don't know. I, it's hard for me.
[00:26:23] Sonia: To just give up completely. Especially when it's that, parental relationship. It's not like a husband, an ex husband, or
[00:26:30] Sonia: like
[00:26:31] Kathleen: hmm. Mm hmm.
[00:26:33] Sonia: or something. But, yeah.
[00:26:35] Kathleen: Mm hmm. Yeah, I think my daughter probably shares similar hope, right? She, well, she's really young, but she still hopes her, her dad will be in her life, but that's,
[00:26:48] Kathleen: yeah, who knows, right? Who knows?who knows?
[00:26:52] Sonia: Maybe one day.
[00:26:53] Sonia: How do you deal with the absence of family due to [00:27:00] estrangement when the holidays emphasize togetherness?
[00:27:03] Sonia: Yeah, so I think that is the, that like creepy feeling is what pushes me every year to consider reconnecting. I think, that the holidays are about forgiving, but not everyone is ready or willing to to forgive, even if you are. And so for me, I had to really, really, really redefine what family and togetherness, was.
[00:27:25] Sonia: And so, yeah, family means people who love and care about me and show it, right? I'm not, I am not saying that my nuclear family doesn't love me.
[00:27:35] Kathleen: hmm.
[00:27:36] Sonia: we're not, they're not showing it right now. and yeah, I think that self compassion, right? this is normal. It makes me human to feel shitty about this.
[00:27:45] Sonia: Um, and this one's interesting. I know we talk about values a lot, but like creating a day, you know, whether it's Christmas or, or another day during the holidays that reflects your values, which I think is what we do. Right. And so [00:28:00] we don't do a lot of stuff because of like duty or obligation, but we really We do things that reflect who we are, for the most part.
[00:28:09] Kathleen: For sure. We do. I think, Christmas was always a challenging time for me growing up in a sense that if my mom is listening, I apologize in advance, but she does not like Christmas so much. And she would be the first to admit that. But I really love it. And I, I am so grateful for how we've been able to bring in different traditions and you know, you pretty much always spend Christmas Eve with me and Christmas morning with, with us, to be there for our daughter.
[00:28:41] Kathleen: And then you do other things on Christmas day and like, it's just really. I love our traditions now that we've created.
[00:28:50] Sonia: Yeah, I agree, but how do you, how do you avoid or cope with triggers that remind you
[00:28:58] Sonia: of tough
[00:28:59] Sonia: [00:29:00] memories? it's funny because luckily we can laugh about my brother flipping you the bird. Um, that's a difficult memory, but it is,
[00:29:07] Kathleen: is
[00:29:09] Sonia: we like laugh about
[00:29:11] Sonia: it
[00:29:13] Kathleen: yeah. How do we avoid that? Well, I think there's some triggers you can avoid, but then there's some triggers you don't even know are triggers until they happen. And I am a really big proponent of noticing the trigger and like noticing and naming the emotion that's coming up because of the trigger.
[00:29:30] Kathleen: And then it's about, again, that self compassion. You are human. Like, are you going to make a choice to let that trigger lead you down this rabbit hole of despair? Uh, like I, I could choose to be angry about that Christmas. I could choose to be bitter about him flipping me the bird and yelling at me in front of our daughter.
[00:29:52] Kathleen: I could choose to be angry about that. And I was, I was in the moment, like really upset, but now I can choose to laugh at [00:30:00] it. Like that it's just so ridiculous and see it from a different angle so I can reframe it. Um, And, and then in terms of that self care piece that we've talked about, like, if you know that the holidays are really hard for you or certain holiday events are really hard for you, then plan, like plan, how you are going to go through that.
[00:30:24] Kathleen: How are you going to handle that? Is there going to be extra self care around that time? Is there going to be like, are you going to have, uh, moments where you can just. Um, excuse yourself from a social situation and take some deep breaths like plan ahead.
[00:30:39] Sonia: Yeah, I agree. You know, I love a plan.
[00:30:42] Kathleen: I know you love a plan. I know you love a plan. So what strategies help you manage conflicting feelings of that love and, and resentment towards your strange family members? Yeah,
[00:30:53] Sonia: Yeah, I get hurt, I don't get angry. And so I, I doneed to reframe it. I, I think [00:31:00] about these people are doing the best they can with what they have. Right? I'm not making excuses, um, but it really does help you be kinder to yourself, right? not all these things are about me.
[00:31:15] Sonia: They're about them, right? And, and I love that phrase, hurt people hurt people. And they're operating from their own wounds, right? And limitations and they may not deliberately be trying to hurt you. Um, it doesn't justify it, but they may also not have, we talk about the toolkit. They may not have that toolkit.
[00:31:38] Sonia: They don't have the tools that I've taken the time to develop. And they may not have even had the opportunity to do it. And so, yeah, when I think about what I do know of my parents and how they grew up, I don't have the toolkit, right? And so maybe I can have some empathy. Towards that, and
[00:31:58] Kathleen: it gives you [00:32:00] peace, Knowing that it's not all about you, you know? how do you handle those unexpected emotions of grief that come up? Like, I don't know if you felt it you put your tree up this year, Yeah, I, well, for me, it comes in waves. Like I don't expect it necessarily. So I was driving with my daughter the other day and we listened to pretty much exclusively Christmas music every time we're in the car right now. And it was like one after the other Christmas songs that my dad really loved.
[00:32:28] Kathleen: And I just was in a heap of tears in the car. I was just. Yeah. Yeah. Sobbing. And, I know that it comes in waves for me. So I know that I've been triggered by something. I feel the emotion and my daughter is really good I think it's important that she sees what grief is. And, um, I just explain like, Oh, I had a wave of.
[00:32:52] Kathleen: grief hit me and she just sits with me and when the car, you know, she'll just say, Oh, it's okay, mom. And I'm like, I know, I know. It's [00:33:00] okay. It's okay. It happens. And it, it happens. So how do you handle the unexpected emotions or of grief? I mean, It, it happens. It's knowing that that is normal. It is a normal for very, very long time.
[00:33:15] Kathleen: So Sonia, you may feel these feelings of estrangement for a very, very long time. You may also still have feelings that come up around your grief around your ex husband and the holidays for a very long time. You don't necessarily expect. And it's just to know that that's normal and feel the emotion and move through it, but it doesn't mean it's going to be there forever.
[00:33:41] Kathleen: Yeah, that's so true. So as a therapist, what, what are some ways you can approach reconnecting with estranged family members if you want to during the holidays? I mean, I've seen, I've seen your face when I, uh, talk [00:34:00] about reconnecting with my family or like, Hey, I'm, I'm going to go see them. I see your face.
[00:34:05] Sonia: You don't say anything, but you're like, okay, well we'll, we'll be here when you get back. So, if you could have given me advice, what, what are some ways to reconnect?
[00:34:14] Sonia: Love
[00:34:17] Kathleen: specific situation specific because there are some families that are like, Quite abusive. And so I would not like even recommendreconnecting in that case. I think as a therapist, if I was working with a client who was wanting to connect with their estranged family member, I would work with the client on what the reasons are for doing that.
[00:34:38] Kathleen: What are they hoping to? Get from that. What are they hoping to achieve from that? And it may be that they're going to test the waters to see if they've changed. It could be that they have felt that they've come to a place of forgiveness or that they've realized their own actions, how that has contributed.
[00:34:57] Kathleen: So there are various [00:35:00] ways I would explore that with a client. I think I'm a big letter writer. And so I think that a letter sometimes can be a really nice way of reconnecting to see what that other person is feeling or if they're interested in reconnecting, I definitely don't think you should go through a middle.
[00:35:25] Kathleen: person. because then that middle person can get caught in the middle. So I think that a letter is a really lovely way to do it. Um, but again, it really depends on, on what that family situation is and what is in your heart. What strategies help you cope when you have to see family members you're estranged from? And you had to do this recently.
[00:35:49] Sonia: Yeah, um, I yeah, I, I think bringing a support system if possible, um, so like, a
[00:35:57] Sonia: friend
[00:35:58] Kathleen: to go.[00:36:00]
[00:36:00] Kathleen: Sonia you had
[00:36:01] Sonia: problem! Wrong
[00:36:03] Kathleen: I'm not the problem. but Sonia had to go to a funeral a little while ago where she did see her. And I remember saying I would go if I could, because I would love to support you, but we both knew that would be the wrong thing.
[00:36:18] Sonia: yeah, and I think, so if you can bring somebody who's not gonna inflame the situation, you should, I didn't have anyone actually at the funeral. That was a rough one, but I, the time before I took my dogs and actually was very calming. and I think a big thing too is, is manage your expectations, right?
[00:36:41] Sonia: So things aren't going to change overnight and I would just go into it with realistic expectations. Like you may not resolve it all. Right. so with that funeral, I remember things actually went okay. And when my parents were like, do you want to come back over and have dinner?
[00:36:55] Sonia: I was like, you know, no, because I feel like we really, we took one [00:37:00] baby step forward and let's not risk it. Right. And so I think kind of knowing when to leave, right. Like is, is also important, like before things get, to that point, but having a pleasant interaction, I think, is really important.
[00:37:15] Sonia: Um, this is really tough for me, but like, staying on neutral subjects, and so with, with my family, you could bring up a neutral subject and they will turn it into the non neutral subject, so you could just be like, how's the weather, and they'll be like, how's that bitch Kathleen think the weather is?
[00:37:33] Sonia: You know what I mean? So it's like, all
[00:37:36] Kathleen: feel, I feel like the need to defend myself in this conversation today because I feel like it really, this is my own insecurity. I feel like I need to state like that, you know how you were talking about earlier, Oh, you start thinking it's your fault. Like I'm feeling in this conversation, like it is my fault.
[00:37:54] Sonia: Did you break up my marriage? Does that sound like a reasonable thing
[00:37:58] Sonia: to you[00:38:00]
[00:38:01] Sonia: Did you make him cheat? No!
[00:38:03] Kathleen: No.
[00:38:05] Kathleen: I
[00:38:05] Kathleen: know.
[00:38:05] Kathleen: I
[00:38:06] Sonia: his midlife crisis? Like the thing when I feel like sometimes especially like I'm lucky because the stuff they say is so outlandish that you're like well now that can't be so it's like even the stuff that they say that kind
[00:38:19] Sonia: of is like
[00:38:20] Sonia: no like even the stuff they say that's kind of reasonable like oh like you don't care about blah blah blah and then when you go and you say something like and Kathleen ruined your marriage it's like well now I can't believe anything you
[00:38:32] Sonia: say
[00:38:34] Kathleen: Okay. Thanks for reassuring me for a second. I was like, wait, was all this my fault?
[00:38:39] Kathleen: So what is one mantra or affirmation that helps you stay calm in situations with family?
[00:38:47] Sonia: Yeah. I use this a lot, but this too shall pass and the holidays are a finite amount of time. And honestly, every day you wake up is another opportunity. So you have a bad Christmas day, [00:39:00] you get to wake up again the next day. And you get to do it again. You have a bad next day. You get to wake up on New Year's day and do it again.
[00:39:07] Sonia: And so everything passes, right? nothing stays the same. And so, yeah. And you were saying, you think that's your mantra also?
[00:39:15] Kathleen: Yeah, I think, when I was going through my divorce, as cliche as this sounds, I wanted to get that tattooed on myself. This too shall pass because I said that to myself every single day. And um, I think it is a really important mantra. Like when you are going through really hard things or really good things, this too shall pass.
[00:39:38] Kathleen: So it's also about being grateful when things Things are good and being grateful for that moment that you have that connected moment. And then also when things are not good, this too shall pass. not only are holidays a finite amount of time, I don't want to get like very existential and dark here at the final moments, but everything passes.
[00:39:59] Kathleen: And [00:40:00] so be grateful for what we get to do, right? What we, we get to have.
[00:40:05] Sonia: Yeah.
[00:40:06] Kathleen: So what resonated with you today?
[00:40:09] Sonia: So we didn't,talk directly, about sobriety that much, but all these things, right, are, you can apply to, your sobriety, right? so the this too shall pass, the, knowing when to exit,
[00:40:25] Kathleen: Having plan.
[00:40:26] Sonia: Having a plan making baby steps and progress not perfection is literally like, uh, I think it's an AA saying.
[00:40:34] Sonia: And so I think that, and I, I always, I can relate a lot of like difficult experiences to and how to handle them to how to handle sobriety. And so that resonated with me that this just isn't just about getting through estrangement or grief. This is also about how to stay sober, how to grow in your sobriety.
[00:40:54] Sonia: What about you? What resonated with you?
[00:40:56] Kathleen: Well, I'll just carry on with what you're saying, because I think it's really [00:41:00] important. While we are talking about holidays, estrangement and grief, these can be really hard things for people, but I agree. I think everything that we covered in today's episode is really about how do we navigate through difficult times, actually. how do we navigate that and that's, you know, knowing that those waves of emotion can come up had the self care piece, the practices that you have in place, the traditions or rituals that can ground you yes, we talked about the holidays specifically, but I think, I think this
[00:41:31] Sonia: so true.
[00:41:33] Kathleen: So true. Well, thank you all for listening to Sisters in Sobriety and we will see you next week. [00:42:00]