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The Still Human Podcast is for teachers, leaders and school staff navigating the realities of working in education today.
Hosted by Julie Liddell and part of Edwin People's wellbeing and culture offering, this podcast features thoughtful conversations with teachers, principals, psychologists, authors and education leaders exploring what matters most: leadership in schools, staff culture, workload, burnout and sustainability.
Each episode focuses on supporting the people behind the roles, because thriving educational communities start with looking after the humans within them.
Still Human delivers training, workshops and strategic support for staff wellbeing and thriving cultures. Edwin People provide strategic leadership and HR services that help schools and multi-academy trusts grow confidently with people-centred solutions. Both part of the Edwin group, we work together to positively impact the lives of young people.
Learn more at www.stillhuman.co.uk and www.edwinpeople.co.uk
[00:00:00] Welcome to the Still Human Podcast, where we dive deep into the heart of staff wellbeing within the education sector. I'm your host, Julie Liddell, and today I'm chatting to Simon Botten. Simon has been a primary head teacher for almost 20 years and is currently executive head teacher at Black Horse Primary School, which he has led since 2012 and more recently, Emerson's Green Primary School, both in Bristol.[00:00:25]
[00:00:25] He's head of inclusion for the Leaf trust and regularly supports other schools with their school improvement journey. He's the author of Head Teachering, a practical guide with the messiness left in and has a popular blog under the moniker South Gloss Head. It was an absolute pleasure to chapter Simon.
[00:00:42] In this episode, we discussed the themes of his book Head Teachering, including the first hundred Days of Headship, creating [00:00:50] happy and effective teams, and managing the stress of the job, as well as Burton's ties. The wonder stuff and be mistaken for King Charles. Enjoy.
[00:01:04] Hi Simon. It's great to have you here today. Thank you for joining us. Thank you for having me. Very exciting. It is very exciting, and we've just had a little off air discussion about Simon's t-shirt. [00:01:15] He's not in suit, tie and lanyard today, but he is actually wearing a wonder stuff t-shirt. It's a very important feature of my personality, my, my, my liking of, of nineties GBO music is.
[00:01:27] Part of my wellbeing here. This is, this is, it's very key to it. I think that does loads for ratings. I'm all about kind of Yeah. But nineties music. Brilliant. So Simon, you've been head teacher [00:01:40] for two decades across multiple schools. You're now executive, um, head of black Horse Primary and Emerson's Green Primary.
[00:01:48] From my research, you are also fund a member of the Leaf Trust. You've wrote and presented the most downloaded series of all time on teacher tv. Yeah. A few years ago, but yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And you also wrote educational software that was nominated for a bafta. That's, that's my, that's my, uh, [00:02:05] yeah. A good, uh, fun fact.
[00:02:06] Yeah. That I was, yeah. Nominated for a Baf in 2007. And on top of all of those a accolades, you're the author of a, a hugely popular blog on headship and now author of the book, head teacher in. Before we get to the book, could you tell us just a little bit about your journey into headship, um, and am I right in thinking that education is kind of in your family's DNA [00:02:30] to, to some extent family business?
[00:02:32] Um, so my, my mum was a reception teacher. Um, my dad was a history teacher, and then I came an advisor. Uh, my uncle was a head teacher. My granddad was a. Woodwork teacher. My great uncle was the metalwork teacher in the classroom next door to my granddad. Yeah. Pretty much everybody in my family, my mother-in-law was a teacher.
[00:02:50] Yeah. Was a, was a teacher. So I kind of grew up with it. It was the conversation around the dinner [00:02:55] table, you know, it was, it was a thing that was always there. Um, so it felt very familiar. I don't think I ever had any huge plan to go into teaching from a very early age, but I did work experience when I was quite young in school.
[00:03:05] I quite enjoyed it and I think it, it felt. It felt meaningful. I think that was the thing. I think it's when you are starting out in the world, you wanna do something that's, that, that matters. And I think it always seemed to be, by the way, everybody around me spoke about it, something that that mattered [00:03:20] to society.
[00:03:21] And I think that's, that's still still a draw for me. Um, you know, so, and again, again, I also, I always wanted to be a head teacher. Um. Really since I qualified in, in, in 1992, uh, 1 9 6 as a, as a teacher. And it always seemed like the thing to aspire to do, you know, a sign that you were, you know, you, you were, you were achieving things in your, in your career and that you, you were so interested you enough to run a school.
[00:03:43] Um, so I kind [00:03:45] of wanted to try and plot that course. I, I, I understood I had to be a good teacher first. So, you know, all those, these things you talked about at the beginning, you know, I was an advanced skill teacher for. Maths and then, um, computing, because I do think it's important the head teachers know how to teach.
[00:03:59] I worry sometimes when head teachers zip through the teaching bit really quickly and then, you know, arrive at headship without actually having done the, the, the hard yas in the classroom. So yeah, I enjoy teaching, but I, I, I've [00:04:10] loved being at, I've been a head since, uh, yeah, since 2007, so, yeah, nearly 20 years now.
[00:04:15] Um, and I've loved every moment of it, pretty much. Um. And that's kind of what I wanna talk about in the book because I think it's a lot of people who, who are down on headship and can give a bit of a kind of, sort of negative view of it. But um, yeah, it's a great job. Yeah. It's interesting. I just go back to what you said there about meaning, um, there's a huge positive correlation with wellbeing and [00:04:35] meaning when we do something can feel like we've got meaning and purpose, you know, that.
[00:04:39] You know, it is fundamental. Yeah. And, and I read a lot when I first started being head by Andrew Cope. I dunno if you've come across him, he's, yeah, Andrew Cope, he's great. He's, he's a great guy. And um, again, he talks about, you know, you get people who do very high paid jobs. I've got friends who get, have jobs which earn far more than either do, but they hate their jobs.
[00:04:57] Um, they have no positive impact [00:05:00] on society, um, other than selling things. Um, and actually. I think that, yeah, I think you're right. I if you, if you leave the end at the end of every day thinking, I've made a difference here actually, I've never really worried about my own wellbeing because I've always felt I've done something useful.
[00:05:15] So yeah, I completely understand that. And, and you do hear about people changing careers to become teachers, don't you? Because they want something that gives them meaning. Yeah. Yeah. And those metrics on the teacher wellbeing [00:05:25] index, you know that that's published yearly. When you read the metrics, all, all those stress levels are rising.
[00:05:31] The metrics around meaning still remain high. So people, even though they're finding it challenging and the landscape might be hard, that sense of meaning and purpose is still coming out high, which is fab. Okay. So, um, yeah, it definitely sounds to me like that was your trajectory. That was your. Path. And so [00:05:50] all your wisdom is kind of bundled up, isn't it?
[00:05:52] In your book head teachering, which was. Published by Bloomsbury, kind of October time, wasn't it? End of, end of, yeah. Yeah. 2025 sold out on Amazon. Really quickly, if I'm, I'm led, um, to believe, right? That's right now I absolutely loved it. I really enjoyed reading it. I thought it was incredibly informative, practical for both kind of serving head teachers [00:06:15] or aspiring head teachers.
[00:06:17] I also thought it was laugh out loud, funny. Um. It did make me laugh, but I also found it quite moving in other places. Um, I'm gonna touch on some of them, but I wanted to start by reading one of my favorite lines just right at the beginning of the book, and it was about your first day on the job of being a head teacher.
[00:06:36] And you said, my first day on the job. [00:06:40] I studied myself in the mirror of the gents and straightened my new Burtons tie. This was my moment of self-actualization. The moment where I would be crowned head teacher in front of the school, my first morning assembly with me at the helm. I just love it. I love that.
[00:06:57] I mean, firstly, my question has to be, now the Burtons is no longer on the high street. Where do you buy your ties? Well, yeah. Very boring. Next [00:07:05] or like now. But again, it's that, it was that, you know, I was, I was, I was quite young when I was first ahead. I was very pleased myself that I got there. And yeah, I remember thinking, you know, this is, this is an important moment.
[00:07:15] I can see every, every single detail of that, of that image. Um, as you'll see from the book, it went downhill quite quickly, uh, that day. Um, but yeah, it was, it was. Again, and that that idea of self and how you are coming across to others [00:07:30] is really important in leadership. Um, and, you know, and that idea of that, yeah, that imposter syndrome, that, that credibility, you know, am I gonna be credible?
[00:07:39] This 30, 31-year-old, you know, in a cheap Burton's tie. In front of these people who was, it was quite additional school. The staff had been there. They, they referred to the eec. Yeah, they called the A qts and I was looking around, where are these in MQ ts and the MQ ts have been there 14 years. Um, so, you know, I think one member [00:07:55] staff had been there since she'd done 35 years at the school or something.
[00:07:57] It was, it was, it was a very well established staff to try and be this, you know, young whipper snapper coming in telling people how to do things. Um, yeah, it was interesting. Because it, it kind of didn't pan out, did it the way that you expected it to that assembly. I just like the notion of you being crowned head teacher.
[00:08:16] Yeah. I think it's, I think it's that, um, yeah, I felt, I felt I, you know, got [00:08:20] to where I wanted to be and it taken a number of years to get there. But, and I think we've all, we all, we've all. That in assemblies or at when a new leader comes in and you do, you're watching every single move. Every single, yeah.
[00:08:30] Every single facial expression, anything that's gonna give a tell on what this person's like. So you've gotta, I've been very aware whenever I started a new place that all of my body language is being studied as much as anything I'm actually saying. So it's, it's trying to get that right and also [00:08:45] knowing you only get one opportunity to get that right.
[00:08:47] Um, and if you, you know, you. Make a careless, you know, word in the first few days, and that can cost you dearly. So you've mentioned, uh, and I'm gonna come back to it later about, you know, your belief that being a head teacher is the most important job in the world, but what motivated you to write the book?
[00:09:04] What was your, what was your moment when you thought. This is a book. Um, I like reading leadership books. I find them really [00:09:10] interesting. Um, you both ones that I linked to education and those that are more general leadership books. My wife used to despair even when my kids were little. Um, I used to take leadership books onto the beach and kinda have highlighted pens in my, in my, in my pocket.
[00:09:22] And that would, that would really wind up. So I part it was actually, I wanna write a leadership book that I could read on the beach. Um, there's, there's a lot of, there's, there's, you know, there's quite a lot of books about education now and some are very pious. Um. Very [00:09:35] worthy. And, and they're also very, they're very, um, certain of their own rightness.
[00:09:40] They're all very, yeah. They, they come across without any, there's no, there's no possible ability that their, their approach could not be immediately successful. Um, and these just not like that. And again, I guess it made me worry that if you are reading those things by, and a lot of educational commentators, again, very strident in their opinions online and uh, and again, are very, very clear about how right they [00:10:00] are and how wrong everyone else is.
[00:10:01] The bigger had teachers about living with doubt. A lot of the time, um, you never really know whether SO'S gonna work until a long time after. Um, and I wanted to write something that gave people that understanding that it is, it is messy and not everything goes to plan, but if you keep showing up, then you know you can get there.
[00:10:19] But, uh, and I guess I thought, I thought there was a bit of a gap in the market for that. And, and again, people take themselves very seriously [00:10:25] in these books. And again, that's not really, again, that, that gives a false, a false expectation of what you've gotta be like as a head. Um, and again, I didn't like, yeah, I, I don't, I don't like that kind of, that, that, that kind of piety that, that was around.
[00:10:38] So yes, I wanted to write something that was, uh, you could read on the beach. And is that kind of, not the beach bit, but is that why you brought in the voices of the other leaders, the other head teachers, those, so it wasn't just the world [00:10:50] according to you? Yeah, and I think that was part, partly it, I did think, I think I thought, God, you know, because I, I was our boob.
[00:10:54] Bloomsbury came to me, you know, 'cause I've, I've had the blog for about eight years now and they kind of contacted me and said, you know, would you be interested in putting a proposal together? Um, and I did think, you know, again, that's a bit of yourself, isn't it, to kind of just write your own, you know?
[00:11:09] Yeah, exactly. The law according to Simon. Um, so. I did think, oh, I, [00:11:15] I, I, I, I've been around the kind of, uh, educational community online for a while, and these are people I admire, but I just literally, you know, I there people I knew on Twitter. I know that Twitter's got its own problems, but, um, yeah, there are people I connected with over that over the years and.
[00:11:31] They're all very different people. Um, you've got some very strident people, some, you know, uh, Vic Carr, who's absolutely amazing. She's absolutely toured a force. You know, she's in the army, [00:11:40] uh, half the time, you know, she's the army officer as well as a, as a head teacher. Um, Anna's written two books, you know, Simon Smith, again, who's, who's a, an absolutely excellent.
[00:11:48] You know, community head teacher up your way in Whitby, um, you know, Calvin Atwell, who's this, you know, very academic, comes from very humble backgrounds. And then I read somebody who, who I, who I really like on there is, is, um, Katie Hague, who just can't, I, I had one more chapter. I need to find someone. I just put a thing out saying, does [00:12:05] anyone want to.
[00:12:05] Got anyone got anything to say, you know, they'd like to be involved in? And this kind of almost slightly semi apologetic email from Katie saying, actually, I'd quite like to have a go at this. Um, you know, she's from my research done to her. She's an amazing head teacher. Absolutely brilliant, but quite, shy is the wrong word, but not, not bombastic.
[00:12:23] Um, and, you know, her first line of her, her case studies, I, I never wanted to be a head teacher. Um, and again, it sh I [00:12:30] guess all it shows, there are lots of different versions of what a good head teacher looks like. Um, there isn't just one template. And also because these people are, a lot of 'em, uh, are very well respected in the field, a lot of them have got their own books.
[00:12:41] Actually getting them to write about some of the fragility and vulnerability within their role and, and, uh, reflecting on, on the difficulty along the way, again, I think gave a more realistic. Portrayal of, you know, if these people can [00:12:55] struggle and get it right in the long run, but struggle in the short term, then then I can too.
[00:12:59] And I think that's what we wanted to get across, that it wasn't, yeah, it wasn't just this brilliant linear path of success that everyone follows. Yeah, and I think those voices definitely add to the richness. Of the book as well as kind of the anecdotal stories and the, it feels very real. That's kind of the sense that I got.
[00:13:16] I think it was one of the contributors, Chris Dyson, and the [00:13:20] story of stewing. I literally, when, when we were trying to get our maths results up years ago, I just searched for the highest score, uh, high, high. The school had the highest scores in mass in the country, um, and landed on Parklands in Leeds. Um, and then drove up there with a load of heads from, um, south Gloucestershire.
[00:13:36] And it was the most remarkable school, you know, incredibly poor. You know, the, the level of deprivation, it was 75% free school meals. Um, and 75% of [00:13:45] children got greater depth in maths, and a hundred percent got expected. Had some, like a progress score of plus nine or something, which was just ridiculous. Um, but yes, I have, I've met Chris.
[00:13:53] Chris is like, again, he's a fabulous guy. He's a, he's a CEO down in Birmingham now, but, um, yeah, yeah, fascinating guy. Really kind of move in that chapter. So can we start with chapter one? I just wanna kind of pick out some of the themes in the book. But chapter one, the first a hundred days, can you tell us a [00:14:10] little bit why?
[00:14:11] Why the first a hundred days are so important? And you write about, I think there's 13 suggestions in there, maybe's kind of what would be your. Your top three suggestions that you outline, if you can remember them. That's feels like I'm testing you on your book now. It's, yeah, that's what I've got it here as well.
[00:14:26] I was looking at before we started. Um, yeah, it's. Again, it's that, it's that feeling of, you know, I, I've been in my, my, my current school for a long time, but I've, I took on [00:14:35] Emerson's four year, three years ago, I did a few, um, temporary roles in schools. Something quite difficult circumstances. One where the head teacher had just been, been sent to prison.
[00:14:44] Um, uh, so again, you're dealing with quite traumatized staff there. And, and then, and also I did some work in a children's prison, which was also fascinating, but. Those first a hundred days shape, really everything that comes after it. I'm, I'm mentoring a head teacher at the moment and, uh, again, it's [00:15:00] helping him shape his narrative.
[00:15:01] And he, his school's quite early in his school in improvement journey. He's got quite a lot to do, but it's how do you, how do you listen but also form, you know, form a, a vision of yourself to the, the staff about what you're gonna be like as a leader. And it's a diff, it's a difficult job as a head because in most jobs you can start your job and you gradually work your way into it.
[00:15:18] Whereas a head teacher, particularly if the school's in difficulty, you're leading from day one. You know, you're literally, it's it, it comes at [00:15:25] you straight away on day one, and you've got to decide how you're gonna present yourself. So, you know, we talk about making sure, you know. You know, do as much homework as you can be as beforehand.
[00:15:33] And again, that's difficult 'cause again, some, you might have only been in the building twice, um, before you actually start as a head. You know, the old head is, is, is in charge until the day before you start. So depending on how that transition goes, you might know a lot and you might know not very much at all.
[00:15:47] Um. It's also understanding you start with no [00:15:50] relational cash in the bank again. Well, again, well, with my staff at, at Blackhorse and, and and Emerson's, but I've started in other places and thought, why does no one like me? Um, and it's because I've got no, I've got, they don't know me. They don't know. You know, I've got, and actually just pointing to that in the first things that's saying, you don't know me.
[00:16:04] You don't know anything about you, don't what I'm about. And that's okay. So, you know, understanding that these people don't trust you because why would they? You are, you are brand new. So you, you start and you kind of point to that elephant from, from the, [00:16:15] from the beginning. And it's also just thinking where, why does, it's a question I always ask when I work with the school, why does this school exist?
[00:16:21] And it's really interesting when you start a new school to ask the team that. And you'll get in, in, in a very small number of schools, you'll get a very sharp, very clear answer, which will, you know exactly explain what that school's about. And that's a school which really understands its vision and its mission.
[00:16:35] In most schools, you'll get people talking around a theme. Um, which kind of [00:16:40] gives some hints as to what the school's about. And in some schools everybody will say something different, which means really a school doesn't know what it's about. Um, and often when schools get themselves into trouble is because they, they forgot.
[00:16:50] They forgot what they're about. They forgot their essence. And I don't tell them, I'm not talking about English and math and how you teach, you know, the curriculum. That's every school. There's that. It's, it's what else? What is the USP of this school? Um, and really understanding that. And you, and you have to kind of ask staff.
[00:17:03] You have to get to, you have to literally [00:17:05] go round and ask everybody What do I need to know about this place? And, you know, you can do that formally. I, I would, I had, you know, tea in a chat I used to call it with, with staff. And I'd literally just have a. A time table up in the, in the staff room and people sign up for half an hour just to have a chat with me and talk about me, talk to me about whatever they wanted.
[00:17:20] Really. It could be something really profound or it could be something, you know, this might just half an hour outta class to have a cup of tea. It's kind of, it's fine. And so, and, and then to ask the parents, Hey, and what happens very quickly [00:17:30] is you start to get. Certain themes emerging, and again, along with the homework you've done that you can then start to create a narrative that you keep repeating.
[00:17:39] So in my first school behavior was, came through straightaway while you, you see from the book children try to burn down the school and being told to fuck off in assembly. These, these sorts of things. Um, you know, it was pretty clear behavior is a problem. So tackling behavior became one of the three kind of mantras [00:17:55] that I would keep.
[00:17:56] Keep hammering. Um, and a very, very wise person. Uh, again, I mentioned the book, Simon Rowe. He's a senior, HMI now he, he has obviously his school Waycroft, which is absolutely stunning. Um, and he, he, he told me when I was a brand new head, he said, all you've gotta do is sort out the environment, sort out behavior, and then sort out teaching and learning and do it in that order.
[00:18:15] And he was dead. Right, actually, because the other thing about, you know, is, is getting some quick wins in [00:18:20] those first a hundred days. And some of it is environmental. If the schools, I've never yet. Come across a school in trouble. It isn't also a mess and you can't do a lot about some of the deep seated stuff straight away, but you can tidy the mess.
[00:18:31] So the first thing I've done in every school in trouble is tidy up the foyer. Everything's a symbol, isn't it? Everything's symbolic to, to staff. If they, if they walk apart past something, it looks physically different then that says quite a lot about what you're intending to do. So it's [00:18:45] finding those little opportunities to, to signify what the, what the school's gonna become and using lots of when language, particularly the schools really struggling.
[00:18:52] And again, I I, I've worked in schools that are really struggling and people are on the floor, you know, their, their morale's poor, their, you know, their, their wellbeing's terrible. Um, and they don't want, you know, they, they just want it to stop 'cause it's just, feels, feels very dangerous. So, talking about, wait.
[00:19:07] You know, even though the school I've departed my first school and, and the [00:19:10] second one for that matter, were at risk of special measures. We, you know, we talked about when the school's outstanding. You know, when the school's excellent, it's gonna be like this. And you just always talk about, yeah, it's like that now, but when it's excellent.
[00:19:20] Um, and again, it just, it it, it shifts the narrative for people, um, and makes it, you know, that gives, you've gotta create some energy, haven't you? So, um, yeah. It's, it's, it really in those first hundred days, it's about, yeah. Showing what people you're about and also trying to understand. What the school's about, so you can react to [00:19:35] that.
[00:19:35] But trying to jump in and, and start a school improvement journey without doing any, any homework is, is folly because all you're gotta do is end up, um, annoying a lot of people who, who, you know, you've most tread on something that they feel deeply positive, deeply, uh, and it's important to them. So yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's taking that time.
[00:19:52] But again, not, not too much. Yeah. And I think you know what you're saying that when you look at any of the theories of building culture and that [00:20:00] environmental element, that kind of, that sets a tone, doesn't it? And I, I know of, um, uh, leaders just on, um, PD days who take their staff for a 15 minute walk around the building and just ask them questions.
[00:20:13] What is this telling us about our culture? Oh, absolutely. I mean, I, I got through 17 skips in my first a hundred days ahead, uh, in my, in my second headship. Within a hundred days I changed the uniform. Um, which again? [00:20:25] And, and, and the logo and the strap line, um, you know, our school badge on for, for, uh, black horse.
[00:20:31] He's a horse jumping over a fence and it all feels very strident. Now he's got champion learners written on it all, you know, quite high, high performing school. So it's like, oh yeah, I'll get you. But when we, when we did that, it was literally, it was the first a hundred days I was head and. The designer, we work with children and, and the staff that horse is escaping.
[00:20:49] Its past. [00:20:50] That's what that vis, you know, that school had to escape its past, it had to get away from what it was. No one wanted to come to the school. It had terrible results. Um, and we had to just completely change the narrative. And that was a very visible way of changing the narrative. Um, so yeah, now it looks like it's all very, yeah, very stride.
[00:21:04] But then it was just, we've gotta get out of here. 'cause this is, this is not a place we're gonna be. Yeah. Although I think, if I remember rightly, that that kind of champion learners took a while to come to, didn't it? Yeah. To [00:21:15] kind of come up with your vision. Yeah. Yeah. That was Antal. 'cause I, I started at Easter Jones at the end of the summer term.
[00:21:20] Yeah. And it was, um, yeah. The actual, the actual buzzwords came from Yeah. Some, some one other staff. Uh, what was he, he say? He said it was, uh, 'cause we were throwing ideas around staffing what, what our new slogan should be. Uh, it's worth a punt. That's what he said. Yeah. Worth a punt. Um, because he was the one of the old guard.
[00:21:37] Um, but yeah, as I say it, it, it, it's, you can [00:21:40] achieve a lot in that first a hundred days, and it, it's different for every school. If your school's really secure, then don't go, you know, blustering in changing everything. The school, you know, my, in my in Emerson Green, where I'm the exact head now, it was a strong school and what they feared the most was me coming in from the largest school, literally a mile down the road with some kinda hostile takeover.
[00:21:58] Um, they didn't want it, the black horse vacation of Emerson's. They didn't need that. So what we talked about is where are our, where are our values aligned? [00:22:05] We talked about two strong schools growing together. We just kept saying two strong schools growing together. Um, and again, that's the way of building trust with the staff.
[00:22:14] You know, you say it once, it is, once you say a hundred times, you start to sit with people as a, as something that they believe to be true. So again, not being afraid to over-communicate a message, um, particularly early. Yeah, and I think, you know, again, having worked with trust in schools who've kind of [00:22:30] merged or, you know, have grown, become part of schools, that that is the, the often the case, isn't it?
[00:22:36] It's that fear. It's that, you know, are we gonna have our culture eroded? And, and actually that kind of, the, the impact on staff, if we're going kind of back to the, the idea of making people feel unsafe is kind of the worst thing that can be done, isn't it? Which, you know, obviously you, you navigated through through that when.
[00:22:54] Black [00:22:55] Horse joined Emerson. Good. So I feel that segues onto chapter a little bit, creating a happy and effective staff team. So we talk a lot about staff wellbeing here at Still Human, and you start that chapter describing sort of three different school cultures that impact on your wellbeing in very different ways.
[00:23:16] Yeah, I think a lot of wellbeing. [00:23:20] Can see, can be very superficially addressed. You know, you can put biscuits in the staff room, you can have a yoga teacher come in once a week and, and it's lovely, but I, I don't think that's what drives. Wellbeing particularly, you know, I said that, that the one that I, I I, I look at most, you know, with most horrors, we had a lovely, she was a lovely woman, uh, ahead.
[00:23:39] I work for, she was very awkward with people. She didn't, she found it difficult to communicate and she [00:23:45] brought in this, she brought in the show to this, this massage person to a head massage, but she only paid for the teaching staff. So the TAs. They're like, no, you're not having head massage. Honestly, it did work more for it, honestly.
[00:23:56] It destroys destroy of morale like we believe. Um, yeah, I think the think is that, you know, that there are people who you will follow to the ends of the earth. And I've worked for a few heads like that. Um. Who just because of their, their vision and the way they are excited [00:24:10] and narrat rate that excitement about that vision, you know, you'll do anything for them.
[00:24:13] Um, and it feels, it feels like I've talked about, it sounded like it feeling like a cult. And I think, you know, that that can be very, very positive or very negative depending on how things go. But, you know, I, I work for ahead, uh, Chris Thursday, she's mentioned in the book, she's one of our trustees actually now of our, of our trust, which is lovely.
[00:24:29] Um. And again. Yeah, you would, she had such a strong vision for the, for the school, which was a brand new school. [00:24:35] But honestly, yeah, that, that discretionary effort that we see from our teams, it was, you know, there was no effort. You know, it didn't feel like extra work. We worked really hard because it felt like we were just, you know, it was that kind of champions of the universe sort of thing.
[00:24:49] We felt, we felt we were absolutely doing something that deeply mattered to the world. Um, I work the heads that. You know, I just, again, they, they actually just rub [00:25:00] their stuff up the wrong way. Um, and then you get no discretionary effort. Um, and you get people who, they don't, they don't want to stay back and do that thing because, you know, they don't feel any loyalty to the organization.
[00:25:10] And then again, I've worked for those in between, which, uh, you know, it's, it's very transactional. Um, you know, it's okay, but you kind of, people don't stay in those organizations very long. So it's trying to work out, you know, what is it that makes. [00:25:25] People want to, to stay somewhere. Um, Tim Brigg house, um, was, he was the director of education for Birmingham for a long time.
[00:25:32] Very, you know, he's, he's, he's written some amazing beast on this. Um, he talks about the importance of stories, narrative. You know, we understand stories as humans more than understand Colfax. And I kind of read that before I first became ahead. And so, you know. Always telling, um, positive stories [00:25:50] does help with how people perceive their job.
[00:25:53] Now, you can't be delusional. He can't be telling positive stories when things are awful. But you know, you can remind people back to a time when, or forward to a time if, um, and I think that's, uh, you know, that's, that's where you can kind of start to get people to feel like they want to be there. I was hoping about the chapter about Don't Be Evil.
[00:26:13] Um, uh, again, that was [00:26:15] Google's catchphrase, uh, before they decided they couldn't. Couldn't keep that any longer for reasons of their own. Um, but again, I've, I've seen schools are incredibly, incredibly, um, successful, which are just with, you know, we, we, we spoke to head when we were forming our trust again, ridiculously um, successful is schools outstanding, has to be outstanding forever.
[00:26:36] But I think he said, he said, what did he say? He said, my, um, uh, I [00:26:40] said to my staff that, uh, I, I owned them for 364 days of the year, Christmas days. Theirs, you know, I mean, muslin made the trains a long time, didn't he? You know, it's kind of, it's, yeah. I mean, and I, I know some people who worked in that school and he just burned through staff.
[00:26:54] You know, people would stay if most a year because the desire to succeed. Just eight people, just, you know, from the leader meant that anything was, was anything was [00:27:05] expendable, including people. Um, and you can run a school like that for a short time, but you can't run a school like that forever. And I think if you can get to a point where people want to be with you and stay on that journey, then.
[00:27:16] Then you're show and the school is being successful, then you're kind of showing that wellbeing is, is being taken care of. A hundred percent. It's, it's all to do with that kind of cultural fabric, isn't it? And what that looks and feels like, that then [00:27:30] feeds into people's motivation, people's feelings of being, well, people's feeling of happiness and, and all of that sort of thing.
[00:27:37] Yeah. And, and I think you can do some, some tangible things when, when we set up, you know, it's interesting for us 'cause we just set, we set up our own, um, Mo Academy Trust, uh. Three years ago, and you, myself, Ross, and Faye, who are kind of the sort of three of the sort of main instigators, you know, Ross, the CEO now and Faye of director of education, we decided right from the [00:27:55] start we had to treat people better than they were being treated in the local authority.
[00:27:59] And the local authority was treating them well. You know, there's nothing wrong there. Our terms and conditions had to be better. So structurally we had to give things that other schools weren't. Um, so everyone gets a wellbeing day. Everyone can pick up their children from school one day a week if they want to, um, or drop off.
[00:28:12] You know, there's, we, we, we made, we tried to. Bake in, you know, family friendly, um, things that may not cost anything [00:28:20] but mean a lot to the individual. And what we found, you know, is, is those, you know, I say those things have a kept staff who've got very low turnover in the trust, um, but also attracted a lot of staff.
[00:28:31] And when, when there's difficulty in recruiting people, if you are saying, you know, yeah, of course you can go to your children's sport state, that's not even, that's not something you have to ask your head for. That's, that's fine. These little things matter and you tie that together with, you know.
[00:28:44] [00:28:45] Ambitious cultures, narratives, and you kind of start to get people who want to be there. And it's not all about them. Donors in the staff room. A hundred percent. A hundred percent. You talk about Brene Brown's rumbling with vulnerability. She gets a bit of a shout out, doesn't she? What? What does that look like?
[00:29:00] Yeah, so again, that's interesting when we, we. Again, when we set up our trust, we, we talked about what, what's our leadership norms and behaviors that we're going to [00:29:10] expect of each other. Um, so that we didn't have that rogue head teacher doing something which was, was counted everything and bene Brown's, you know, her, her work, Kim Scott's work, um, radical Candle or these things were all discussed.
[00:29:22] And actually one of those, the nicest things any teacher said to me when I was first ahead was, was, you know what, you know, but you also know what you don't know. I think that's, that's is sometimes heads feel they have to try and black it, that they know [00:29:35] everything all the time. And again, people will see through that straight away.
[00:29:40] So it's that actually being okay to say, you know what? I don't know right now. I dunno what that looks like. You don't wanna scare people. The overs shelf I've seen has do that as well, where they're, they're literally terrified staff by giving every single uh, you know, bit of information. Absolutely. Don't do that because you know, you have to hold some things in the vault that only you, you and your, your closest team see.
[00:29:59] But [00:30:00] yeah, being that authentic person with staff that says, you know what, yeah. I dunno if got that right this time, to be honest. Um, or let me get, you know. That, that great phrase, lemme go away and think about that. 'cause I don't really know right now. And also being the, the, the Kim Scott stuff on, you know, clear is kind.
[00:30:15] And, and not talking en code people. Now I've seen this, I've seen this done very badly, where it just becomes people being really cruel actually to one another, because they think they're being key. They're [00:30:25] talking, you know, they're talking their truth and tell it how it is. Yeah. And that's just your, that's your, that's your, your boxed aggression that Kim, that Kim Scott talks about.
[00:30:31] Um, but you can, you know, care personally for the person and communicate directly. And I think once you get to that point, then there's a lot less am ambiguity and misunderstanding between staff and if you, yeah. I think if you can first get that with your SLT and that's a given. But then if you can get your, you, you really should be confident enough that your staff [00:30:50] can say what they think openly, whether your, you know, where your rank sits, it doesn't matter.
[00:30:55] Everyone's got, you know, they can, what I say is that everyone has an opinion, but only I have the, the accountability of the decision. So, you know, it's not a democracy. In my school, we will, I'll ask staff what they think, but at the end of the day, it's got to be me and my senior team's decision because we're accountable.
[00:31:10] But, and again, I think that if you, if you understand that. So you can say, look. Yeah. Okay, I'll, I'm gonna [00:31:15] take on board what you say, but I'm not always gonna do it because, you know, the, the pressure on me are different. Um. But yeah, I think it's people being open and straight with one another. And once you actually, once you define a framework for that and explain that to people, so I did some work on, on radical can with some parents recently.
[00:31:31] Um, because um, you know, like most schools has spike in, in, in parental complaints and, um, you know, C'S a big issue, isn't it? And, and things like that. [00:31:40] But, and actually they were fascinated by the idea of, you know, how do we communicate, you know, with care to one another because. Again, we see in all our attractions, and particularly if you are the institution, then you are faceless body, which can just be, you know.
[00:31:53] Shouted at. Um, and I think, yeah, I, I, I think I've seen a slight change in the parents as well in terms of just their understanding that we can be both direct and kind. Um, [00:32:05] so yeah, I think that that's where the whole Brene, brown, brown thing could come in a bit and, and just being, you know. Her whole thing.
[00:32:10] Now paint me done what does done look like. And if you're asking member staff to do something, be clear about what you're asking to do. Otherwise they'll come do it differently than you thought. You'll disappointed. And then everyone will feel a bit rubbish. So being really clear what's being asked of you.
[00:32:23] And, and I mean, the other thing, the person who, Steve, Steve, um, Steve Peters is book the the chip paradox. Yeah. Talks about that a [00:32:30] lot as well. And sometimes staff will, you know, the other moment they'll come back to me and say, you know what? So that's just my chimp talking Simon. Or sometimes you'll save people, you know.
[00:32:36] Is that you or is that your chimp? Because. And again, actually providing some framework to have these conversations makes it feel safer. You know, if there is no framework and there's no understanding that people are gonna be honest with each other, even if that's difficult, then the, the propensity for people to take things the wrong way or to get upset, um, or for things [00:32:55] to, to sort of fester, um, are much higher.
[00:32:58] I've never, that difficult conversation has never felt worse after it. Um, it's never, it's always, you know, things have always improved after that difficult conversation, yet the conversation you don't have, um, which, which everybody knows there's something wrong, um, between, you know, either individuals or team.
[00:33:15] You know, you sometimes you've gotta have that rumble and well, we'll talk about it in our, in our central team, that trust, [00:33:20] like, do we need to rumble this, this now because we're not agreeing with each other? Um, but we need to have that out in the open, which you can't just sit here kind of huffing at each other or, you know, assuming someone's gonna read my body language.
[00:33:31] We need to say it out loud. So yeah, I think that that does take away some of the kind of. Um, psychological danger, uh, around, around sort of leadership, um, and how you interact with the team. Yep. That's psychological safety and, and, [00:33:45] and it sounds to me like those beach reads came in handy. There's lots of Yeah, they are.
[00:33:50] And these are the sort of things I tend to the vic, you know, all of those bits I mentions are. You know, that and Simon, the Sinek, start with why, you know, that's a great book. One of my favorites. Yeah. Yeah. Again, it's like, you know, if you, and that's the other thing. If you hadn't explained why something is to people, you can't just tell 'em to go and do it.
[00:34:04] Um, and I think some heads, they, they miss that bit because they understand the why and they assume other people do, and they just, and then people just, [00:34:10] well, why should I have to do that? And you think that's gonna take me loads of time and it's gonna, um, you know, create more workload. But again, if you, if you get to the point where people will see, they may not agree, but they understand that it has to happen.
[00:34:21] Then you, you're not going to get as much, um, uh, and happiness in a, in an organization. And I love that you're sharing that language and sharing those ideas with parents as well, and that wider community. Yeah. I'm sure you've done wonders for all of [00:34:35] their book sales as well. Yeah. Yeah. Which again, talking to, I talk to parents about being armored up, particularly when it comes to complaints.
[00:34:43] You know, we talked about, you know, are you, I said, if you come at me with something that's been written by chat, GTP. You know, I will come clunking into that room in, in my armor. You'll be in your armor. We will just sit and trade blows via chat, GTP or whatever it is, you know, in very cleverly worded emails.
[00:34:59] Or we can [00:35:00] just sit down and have a conversation. But we can't, you know, we can't. They're the two are mutually exclusive. Um, and yeah, that, that is, again, that's a very live issue for all of us Now. Yeah. Can we move to chapter 12? So chapter 12 focuses on managing the stresses of the job. So you obviously talked there a lot about kind of creating a healthy team, a happy team, an effective team, but that's kind [00:35:25] of what we know, don't we?
[00:35:26] That it's well documented. Stress levels are on the rise amongst head teachers. Can you talk to me about some of the suggestions that you made in that chapter? Yeah, I think it's. And sound really pithy, but it's not overthinking it. I've seen it consume head teachers. I've known some really good head teachers be lost to the profession because the magnitude of what they have to do sits heavily on them and they, they take those, [00:35:50] those vulnerable children's lives home with them in their minds.
[00:35:54] They, they take, they carry everything on their shoulders. And it sounds really hard, but if you let that get, get into you, then it's impossible. You can't run like that. You know, you, you need to be able to compartmentalize tho those, those issues. Now, whether it's, it's a sensible psychological strategy, I have no idea, but, you know, for me it [00:36:15] was, you know, I have to put that in a box out the way over here because yes, those things are, and, and some things you can.
[00:36:21] Will only ever be picking the, the least worst option and under. And it's also understanding that the world is inherently chaotic. Um, and whilst we have this veneer of, of everything being orderly, actually the world doesn't wanna be like that. So sometimes the world is gonna do what the world is gonna do and you can't Control is only controlling things you can control [00:36:40] and accepting actually and letting go of what you can't control because again, we can, we can kid ourselves that we are gonna solve every one of society's problems.
[00:36:48] Um. And you know, there in my lies madness. I think, I mean, I mean some simple kind of thing. The thing talk about in the book is things like telling happy stories, but telling yourself happy stories. There's a, a kind of analogy I use with new heads and there was after the, um, there was, there was a, the earthquake in Porter [00:37:05] Prince, um, in Haiti in probably about 15 years ago.
[00:37:07] And there was some, some Irish, uh, benefactor came in and tried to re rebuild the, the market. And you know, it was in this, this place was an absolute chaos. You know, there was, oh, militia going around. Everyone had malaria. And the foreman who was in charge of it just said, all I've gotta do every day is put brick on brick.
[00:37:24] That's all I've gotta do. If I put a brick on top of another brick and I do that every single day, this market will be built. And I say that [00:37:30] to the heads when, you know, if things are really hard, just put it. Brick on brick every day. You know, what have you done today? Go home. Count the number of bricks you've put on today.
[00:37:37] What have I done today that's gonna make a difference? Um, again, and that helps break. You know, we talk about how'd you eat an elephant? We eat an elephant, a bite at a time. You know, you do, you cut the elephant's too enormous. Think about the whole elephant and it will drive you mad. But if you could just do the bit in front of you.
[00:37:52] That helps manage the stressfulness of something which can [00:37:55] seem enormous. The thing about, again, our, our productivity in this country is shocking and largely because we have this very big blurred line between work and home. Um, we don't work as hard as we could at work, and we work allow ourselves to work at home.
[00:38:10] So we smear the kind of working day longer that needs to be across our, our lives, um, in Germany. And then it's something I try and try and follow is. They work when they're at work and [00:38:20] they don't work when they're at home. And I think I've probably got to that point now as a head where I don't work a lot at home.
[00:38:25] I've worked reasonably, you know, I've worked reasonably long hours. I probably get in about eight and leave about six, but I'm also home. That's it. I'm, I don't, you know, I'm not working at all. And it's being, while I'm at work, I'm at work and I'm, and I'm working. I'm, I'm working hard. I think the other thing, again, it's that.
[00:38:40] It's not allowing your job to become your life. Um, you know, I absolutely [00:38:45] love my job. It's, you know, it is a big part of me, but it's not everything about me. And I think if you don't have any other interests outside of work, then your mind is not kept busy with other things. Um, you know, exercise. I think it's really important.
[00:38:59] You know, I was a very keen runner for many years now. I can't do that anymore because I'm, I got injured, but I cycle you, I've done exercise every day for the last three years because. It's very hard to worry about SAT scores [00:39:10] when you are gasping for air. It takes your mind away from overthinking about that thing.
[00:39:15] And again, I try to, to try to fit it into my day. I'll cycle to and from work pretty much every day. And again, it's just that de that decompression of, you know, between work and home. You know, when I'm cycling to work, I'm getting ready for the day. I'm mentally running through it in my head. And then when I'm coming home, cycling, I'm, I'm, I'm.
[00:39:34] Letting [00:39:35] all that go. So by the time I walk through the door, it's kind of not gone, but it's not sitting with me the whole time. And then people who say they haven't got time to exercise again, I don't really believe that to be true. It, it, it's, it's, there's, there's a quote in the book, I'm Nick for someone else.
[00:39:50] Then you know, you know, if you can't time find flex, find time for exercise now that you better time find freeness later on. Spending time outdoors, spending time doing something physical makes a massive [00:40:00] difference to your wellbeing. You know, we are biologically designed not to be sat inside buildings all day fretting about things.
[00:40:07] So I think it's, yeah, tho those are the, yeah, but then to say that, you know, no one's. Gets stressed is not also not true. I, a friend of my daughter read the book not long ago. She's 24 now. She's just tutor to off to London this weekend. So she tried to get read before she went and she, and she was like, yeah, you're kind of very sort of casual about [00:40:25] stress in the, in the book Dad, you know, you don't talk about it.
[00:40:27] She'd, but you know. I remember we didn't see you a lot when we, we were very little 'cause you were working all the time. You know, and you know, she, I it's, it's interesting that her perception of, you know, she's all, her kind of childhood life was me being ahead and starting off, being ahead and then, you know, um, so yeah, it was, it is interesting that, and there are times when the job.
[00:40:46] It does, yeah, it does feel really stressful. There was an interesting thing, [00:40:50] I I we off steady back in October, um, and I have Garmin, which kind of measures all sorts of things, including your kinda heart rate variability and immediately the phone call went, my heart rate ability changed completely and, and was outta the normal range was six weeks.
[00:41:04] I kind of, there's some reading about it afterwards and it says basically the effect of stress. You know, I didn't feel stressed. I didn't you, so what you're basically, is your body responding to stress hormones, [00:41:15] um, that suddenly are triggered and then, you know, it kind of, yeah, it took six weeks to get back to the normal range, which is Yeah.
[00:41:21] And you kind of think, okay, sometimes stress is having an impact on you, which you don't necessarily see. Uh, just be, be careful for that because yeah. Yeah, everything that you're saying that I wanted to interrupt you about 20 times, but only to join in the conversation. So yeah, we use, um, little bio dots in our workshops around stress, which kind of measure, [00:41:40] um, the temperature.
[00:41:41] And we, we encourage kind of staff and leaders to wear them throughout the day and watch the way they respond. Um, but also notice. Whether they feel stressed or not. And actually a lot of the time people have got so used to living in like low, chronic, low stress. They don't even recognize those signals.
[00:42:00] And, and as you said, those things, finding time to do those things that allow [00:42:05] you to finish the stress cycle, put down the stress cycle, move through the stress cycle. And largely that is through movement, through nature. They're the things that are gonna make you feel. Well again, and, and kind of recalibrate, but also things like singing.
[00:42:19] I mean, I always think music and singing in the car on the way home, you know, if you can belt out a song at the top of your voice and kind of help you recalibrate it, it is about finding those things, [00:42:30] isn't it? Because as you ready say, you can't, you can't eradicate stress. Stress kind of can be hiding around every corner, can't you?
[00:42:37] That's, that's kind of not the way to control it. It's, it's about controlling the controllables. Yeah. And, and I'm trying not to. So there's some sticky problem. So, you know, parental complaints are one that really get, get to heads, you know, because it's, it feels very personal and can be, and it can be, well, you can't have, is it living [00:42:55] rent free in your head?
[00:42:56] Constantly. Yeah. And unless you're careful, it'll just keep popping in there, you know, weekends, you know, again, you've gotta actively not think about it because you know, your brain will just keep returning to it. Our imagination allows us to suffer twice, um, because we, you know, the reality of the thing is never as bad as the, as as our imagination of it just doesn't get to you often in the, in the actuality of the thing being the imagination of it.
[00:43:18] Um, yep. And [00:43:20] that's what, what tends to. Yeah. Really start to to to eat away at people, I think. Yeah. And BOA called it the secondary, didn't he? That kind of idea that you can experience it once and then you can keep reliving it in the same sort of way. And then experiencing, you know, that same thing over again.
[00:43:36] I've just got this chapter open actually, and I've noticed when you get knocked down, get back up again. Was that a Chumba? Womba reference? It was. Yeah. [00:43:45] Yeah. I like a pithy phrase. I have them all around, you know, I've got very pithy phrases around the office and things. Um, do you choose not to let it define you that, that moment and sometimes it is only about that choice?
[00:43:57] Yes, this thing's happened to me. You know, I, it may not be a walk down, but, but I can, I choose how I respond. Um, you know, I can't, and I can't control some of the variables that, you know, I may not be able to control that thing happened to me in the first place. But, yeah, I, I get to choose my [00:44:10] response.
[00:44:10] Absolutely. I just needed to get TruMoo in there because that'll be the third time we've mentioned them on this podcast, which is fairly impressive, isn't it? Ke are your feather stone. We mentioned it and one of the, the band members is actually from the town where I live. Yeah. Yeah. So I thought I've gotta get that in when I just noticed it.
[00:44:29] But yeah, absolutely. There's choices in there, isn't there? There's choices about where we turn our attentions to. And I think [00:44:35] that ties in with what you're saying about kind of seeking out those positives a little bit, making sure they're part of the narrative. 'cause it can be easy, can't it? To kind of, it's that sort of Velcro in it for, for the negative and it sticks really easily and you, you've gotta kind of work a bit harder.
[00:44:50] Which kind of brings me to the question, um, the book. It does feel joyful in places. And you know, you've mentioned it a few times here and I've seen you mention it elsewhere. You know how much you love [00:45:00] your job and, and I feel like we really need voices like yours because it's quite o bleak landscape, isn't it?
[00:45:06] Um, in terms of the narrative around educational leadership or Certainly there's lots of stories around that and, you know, not without reason. Um. There might be people who listening who have lost their joy. They've lost their joy, maybe in headship, maybe in other roles within their school. So kind of in the midst of [00:45:25] everything you do in the midst, all that accountability, the pressure, how do you intentionally find that joy?
[00:45:30] What kind of keeps making you smile? How do you seek that out? Is I understanding how fortunate? You are to have the job that you do. Um, you know, there are, you know, millions and millions, you know, billions of people across the planet who have much harder lives. Um, so again, it's kind of check your [00:45:50] privilege a little bit, you know, that, that, I don't mean that disrespectful people are finding their jobs difficult, but you know, being what the fifth richest country in the world, working in a very secure industry.
[00:46:00] Actually we are very fortunate and, and, and, you know, we are. Okay. So practicing gratitude, I think is one of the things is that, is understanding, you know, what, what is it I do have and, you know, how lucky am I for having it? That's something we don't do enough, [00:46:15] is actually think to yourself, what, what, what was I, what was I lucky to have today?
[00:46:18] And it comes back to that mento Maori thing I talk about in the book as well, which again is stoic self philosophy, is that, you know, everything's temporary. This, you know, this is, you know, if you were to die today, um, what would you be worrying about? Um, so that's part of it. That can also is. It, spend some time with small children, it's very hard not to, um, not to enjoy your job.
[00:46:37] When you strip it back to that, if you know, again, as a head, [00:46:40] I always say to people, if you are just sitting there at a desk doing something really difficult or really that's really starting to get you go and wander around your school, um, go spend some time. And reception. Reception are are a big leveler.
[00:46:51] I was walking around the store the other day and uh, this year one child come up to me, this's, one of the schools of sporting, they don't know me very well, and they were like, who were you? And I said, oh, I'm, I missed the bottom. I'm here. I'm here to help you with your thing. And she really disappointed this girl to you.
[00:47:02] She was like five years old. Oh, I thought you're King [00:47:05] Charles. Um, and again, you, in working in a primary school, particularly you. Thousands of those such kind of interactions, you know, you know, at any one year and it's spending time, you know, looking for those because that's actually why we're doing this job.
[00:47:21] The children in our care come to us, you know, it's incredibly open about everything and, and incredibly joyful about the world they live in. Um, and without any sense of kind of cynicalness [00:47:30] or, um, so yeah, spending a bit of time out, out, out doing that helps you realize actually what your job is. The, the children are your job.
[00:47:38] Um, and I think we can be caught up in. Or the other bits that we imagine our job to be. And I may well be important things in our job, but actually our job is to improve the, you know, the lives of those children. So, um, spend some time with them, which goes back to that why doesn't it, that you kind of talked about [00:47:55] earlier.
[00:47:55] Yeah. You know, I was very lucky to work with 16 to 19 year olds who don't sound like they'd be very joyful. Um, but they did, they made me laugh every single day. Hours at work. Nobody ever thought I was King Charles. However, um, uh, but one did say that she was very disappointed because they'd been told that um, they were getting a special guest and the special guest was me and she was disappointed 'cause she thought it was gonna be [00:48:20] Beyonce.
[00:48:22] That's a difference. Yeah, that's a quite, quite a leap, isn't it? Not quite Beyonce. Okay. Your final chapter. This is the one I found really, honestly. It was really powerful. The thought was lovely, and you brought in the story of your granddad who was a woodwork teacher. I think the words for something along the line, how will your moment in the sunlight be remembered?
[00:48:42] It looked, was it run legacy? Would that be [00:48:45] right? Yeah. So, so, um, I've gotta say the word. So it's pronounced fuck Papa. Um, so you have to use that word carefully, but, um, it. It's, uh, again, again, this, this is not my idea. There's a book about it and, uh, it's, it is around legacy. And I think what brought it home was, but when I was writing that chapter, it was, there's a, a kind of an anniversary for the school and I had all the old log books out.
[00:49:06] And again, I'd been that person when I was a new head. I was [00:49:10] insufferable, you know, everything else was crap before me. I was brilliant. You know, this generation is, you know, had, you know, most. Most enlightened and, and best teachers ever. Um, everything else before was just a bit kind of, yeah, nothing. Um, and I started reading these log books and I just realized again, it was a real, oh, okay.
[00:49:27] You know, these people who have much less in terms of resources, um, you know, just at the amount of information at their fingertips, [00:49:35] you were doing remarkable things. You know, again, there was, there was stories of the, at the infant, the, the head teacher of the infant school back in the. Fifties when his landscape was, you know, middle-aged white men who were the, um, were the, were the, um, head teachers doing remarkable things in a really, uh, interesting way.
[00:49:52] Uh, so the idea of wha Kaaba comes on, you know, we stand on the shoulders of those who, who came before us. They had their moment in the sun and passed the battle onto us, and we have our moment in [00:50:00] the sun and some bog will pass it onto someone else. If we all do that, you know, we all stand in a continuous line with those who weren't before, those will come after us.
[00:50:07] And that's, you know, having relatives. I know those stories and again, the story about my granddad and the, and the ex people at his funeral was, was, yeah, really touching. Um, but again, it's that, yeah, if we keep doing our job. The world will be a better place. Um, if we keep throwing out young people into the world who are, [00:50:25] who are brilliant and hopeful and, and believe the world's gonna be okay and help, help make it so then everything will be okay.
[00:50:32] Um. And we've gotta believe that because you say the, the, the narrative that comes at us all the time is about how bleak everything is. And I don't believe that to be true. You know, the world is no better or worse than it ever has been. Um, it's just how we, you know, what, what are we doing to make it better?
[00:50:46] I think as educators, we have that opportunity, don't we? To, to. To make [00:50:50] a tangible difference to those around us. You know, if, if you know that that's the, the ultimate sign of your success. If, if you've left a mark on a, on a group of, of people, which clearly the people who were, that had to before me and you know, and wrote about in the log books and things, and, and they have, uh, and that's, I guess what we all, all aspire to be really.
[00:51:07] Simon, I'm very conscious of time. I've got one last question for you, and it's a question we ask all of our guests for some words of wisdom. Really, [00:51:15] if there was one kind thing. You would suggest that listeners could do for themselves today, what would it be? Oh, exercise a bit. Bash on that. Go for a run. Go for a swim.
[00:51:26] Go for a walk. Uh, you know, your, your, your future self will. Thank you hugely for doing it. Love that. Brilliant. Simon, thank you. Thank you for your wisdom and the stories and the practical advice [00:51:40] and for, I don't know, in your book, proving that headship and humor can coexist, so I would highly recommend people go out and buy your book.
[00:51:48] Oh, thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you for your time, Simon. Thanks, ed. Cheers.