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Billy takes Dawson and Pacey to the hottest club on earth in Providence, Rhode Island in Season 1 Episode 9: Road Trip, also known as In the Company of Men.
Non-Dawson Recommendations:
James - Fortnite / Shift+F1
Mal - @BodegaCatsOfInstagram
Stella - The Staircase (2022)
Cody - Wormrot / Kelly Reichardt Movies
A Dawson's Creek Rewatch Podcast for those who missed the boat!
Freaks & Creeks: a Dawson's Creek Podcast dives into each episode of the hit '90s TV show Dawson's Creek with a fresh perspective. Join Cody, Stella, Mal and James as they set sail through turbulent waters determined to understand this iconic teen drama’s place in the modern television zeitgeist.
Cody: M. Welcome to Freaks and Creeks, a Dawson's Creek podcast, the show where four millennials who missed the boat 25 years ago take the dive for the first time. Join us as we experience the series with a fresh perspective week to week and see if if our adults experiences match up with Dawson and the gang. My name is Cody.
Stella: I'm Stella.
Mallory: I'm Mallory.
James: And I am James. And before we get started with the episode, let's jump into some capeside correspondence.
Cody: Capeside correspondence? Well, we just wanted to give a shout out to front of the show, Heather, for her very sweet review on Apple podcast where she stated I didn't need to watch Dawson's Creek. I didn't especially want to watch Dawson's Creek, but now I look forward to watching an episode every dang week so I can tune in. Who have I become? Heather? I ask myself that question every single day as well. Also, James, uh, I thought this would be fun for you to hear. So Heather, uh, is in town. She lives in the east coast, partner. But they're in town and we hung out with them last night and she wanted to let us know that, uh, her and her partner have not stopped playing Super Auto Pets ever since. Her partner Pitt was like, yeah, I played on the plane for six straight hours.
James: Fuck yeah, we got to play. I suck really bad but I would love to get my ass peep by you guys. That sounds amazing. Thanks for picking up my recommendation. We talk about that in my work. I have one of my coworkers and we talk about Super Auto Pets probably at least once a week. Um, great game. If you haven't, uh, picked it up yet, pick it up now.
Stella: Also, just want to do a general shout out to some friends who have reached out and said that they're listening and they're having a blast listening and they just like having a good time. And I love that we have friends that, um, are listening with us and, um, enjoying it. It makes me really happy. It warms my heart and I appreciate everyone's support.
James: Totally.
Mallory: Thanks, friends.
Cody: Also, if you're not our friends and you're listening to us, holy cow. We love you and thank you for the support.
James: Yeah, I mean, I guess.
Cody: Okay, see you. Never mind. Fuck off.
James: Just kidding. We love you too. And in fact, you could be our friends if you'd like. You just have to find us on Facebook. That's the way to become official friends these days. Yeah. Send me a friend. Yeah.
Cody: 2008 and that's an invite on Facebook.
James: Uh, well, this week we are talking about season one, episode nine Road Trip, which is also known as in the Company of Men. This episode was released on March 17, 1998 and a brief synopsis is jen's old boyfriend takes Dawson and Pacey to a nightclub upon finding herself the subject of some nasty rumors. Joey strikes back. The episode was written by Rob Thomas of Matchbox 20 and directed by Stephen Robin. And this episode really has just about everything. It has some hilarious teenage antics. I love everything that we got to see from Pacey and Dawson and Billy on the road. An action sequence which I'm pretty sure was in a James Bond film when uh, they hooked the anchor up to the truck and mooned them before driving away.
Cody: Bond move.
James: Classic bond move. Super awkward kissing. A fantasy that I think only, um, Dawson and maybe Cody have had where they just get to talk about how much they love movies with a woman who also just wants to talk about how much they love movies. And arguably the worst ending of any episode so far. The end of this episode sucks so bad. What did you guys think of this week's? Watch. How did it treat you all?
Stella: Um I had mixed feelings. Like, part of me thought it was kind of dull, um, but I thought there were some really awesome parts to it. I liked seeing the different friendships, kind of lost them. I don't know if that's the word I want to use, but just like, I don't know, we got to see them interact with their friendships more and that was fun. And yeah, there are some highs and lows.
James: Definitely some highs and lows.
Mallory: Yeah, I kind of had the same thought on it was kind of like meh for the most part, but there were a lot of good friendship development moments. It was also nice to see Jen and Joey stand up for themselves in several different situations, um, throughout the episode. Um, and it was fun to see. Here are some on the nose comments about Dawson's obsession with Spielberg. Finally check your stuff. Um, and then we got bookended by Savage Garden.
James: Great how to treat you, Cody.
Cody: Yeah, there's some good and there's some bad. I like that. Dawson was challenged this episode and he actually grew and did something that he's not typically fond, uh, of doing and, uh, doing action verbs, as Paisley would say. Also, I feel like this is the first time I was actually paying attention a little bit more to the cinematography and I thought it was shot really well. They were doing a lot of interesting things with the camera and, um, yeah, I really like that things. Uh, I didn't like, uh, the A story being about, uh, the boys getting laid, baby. It reminded me of Leonard DiCaprio's Pussy posse from the 90s, uh, with Toby Maguire and David Blaine. Oh, everyone's looking at me like, no, that's a real fact. Yes. Um, Leonardo, uh, DiCaprio, uh, self proclaimed their friend group, the Pussy Posse and they would go to parties and do drugs and try to fuck as many people as possible.
James: That's weird because that's what I call us.
Cody: I know that was originally the podcast title Insane. Uh, yeah, but it was like, wow. My favorite part about the pussy boss is Toby McGuire is a part of it. Uh, I don't know anything about him besides what I know about him, Spiderman. So I just imagine like gentle Peter Park or being like, yeah, I'm trying to get some buzzy.
Mallory: They must have played poker together too, because I think he's a poker player.
Cody: Okay.
James: In that gambling movie. Is that what you say?
Mallory: That the molly's, um game.
James: Yes.
Cody: Oh, yeah.
Mallory: I believe Toby McGuire was in that group. Read the book, but yeah, I think he was one of them. And I think Leo also poker brother.
Stella: But David Blaine was a part of David Blaine.
Cody: You're probably wondering what you're doing at this party. You don't know what's going to go on. But I'm going to make those panties disappear.
James: Watch me stick this knife through my hand.
Cody: Listen, I love my delivery.
James: It's so funny.
Cody: Uh, and yes, I do. But yeah, listeners, just, uh, Google Leonardo DiCaprio pussy party and you are going to have a different opinion about that, man. Um, like you said, Mal, I really like Jen and Joey teaming up and girl power. Fuck these guys stuff. God damn it. They just had to pin them against each other again.
Mallory: I know.
Cody: Um, that was my biggest turn off of this episode. Besides, the pussy posse stuff was just like, why the fuck are we still putting these women against each other? Especially because in detention it seemed like that kind of like, uh, that was beginning to I don't know, but whatever.
Mallory: They've got to keep that little tension in there.
James: Of course, I thought this episode I agree with everything that you all are saying. It was an um, episode that I didn't particularly enjoy for most of it. It was pretty boring. Uh, for most of the episode. I felt like we, uh, have 29 scenes in our rundown for this episode. And I would say that's about 25 too many. There are so many scenes where it's just like, why is this here? Nothing happens. There's so much just filler space in this episode. And I feel like it's kind of an example of two half baked plots that they just mashed together after the writer's room got through storyboarding. Some things they had two things where they're like, well, uh, Joey is caught in a rumor about being pregnant and Billy takes Dawson and Pacey on a guy's trip. And they couldn't build both of those out into full episodes. Like, fuck it, these are close enough. Let's put them together. Yeah.
Mallory: It felt like a spacer between what's happening with Dawson and Jen and, uh, they probably will get back together. So what are we doing between that?
James: I did enjoy moments of it though. There were some really fun moments. I really liked the whole ferry sequence and the travel sequence from Capeside to Providence. I did like the high school drama with Jen and Joey. I thought that was fun. It was fun to get to see different, uh, sides and aspects of these characters. To your point, Stella. But yeah, it was an interesting episode. I walk away with such different feelings recollecting it than I did watching it.
Stella: Yeah, it was kind of like, unforgettable. I couldn't remember. We watched it early on after we recorded the last one, and then I didn't watch it for a long time and I was like, I could not tell you what happened in that episode.
James: Same. I had the same kind of experience where I watched it and wrote a bunch of notes on my watch. And then when we went to rewatch it somewhat recently, I was like, what happens in this episode? And then I looked at my head, I'm like, oh, that's what happened to this episode. Right. It just kind of went in my eyes and then out my butt. But, uh, yeah, I guess.
Cody: These are valid criticisms, and I share that criticism, too, because it's pretty empty. But it's kind of what I like about this era of TV, too. Like we've said a million times, they had a lot of time to fill so many episodes. This is only a 13 episode season, I think, but the later ones are like, 24 episodes and we're going to get a lot of these where it's just like, all right, what's the premise for this one? Okay, let's talk about sex. Okay. How can we stop for a little bit? Uh, okay, it's stretch then whatever. Okay. Onto the next one. And this, like, it shows.
Mallory: Yeah.
Cody: Ah, easy, breezy, beautiful CoverGirl.
James: Well, shall we dive into this one?
Stella: Get into it.
Cody: I am just particularly excited to hear about your vampire lore this episode because there were a couple instances where a certain character was wrapping at a door to be allowed in and would not come in until they were given permission.
James: Interesting.
Cody: M, and there are certain creatures of the night that have to be allowed in.
James: I'm interested to hear your takes on this because I'll be honest, I walked away with this one with just a few. That was actually one of my minuses on this episode. I didn't feel like there was enough confirmation of my supernatural, uh, predilections. So maybe you will help turn the tides for me on this episode. It will become one of the greatest of all time.
Cody: Yeah. Listeners, if this is your first episode, go back go back to episode one because we've been building on some lore that you've probably never paid attention to. That is extremely important.
James: It's like the man that's hiding in the bushes in the back of the dollar bill. Uh, go pull out a dollar bill. Look, on the back of it, there's a man hiding in the bushes and there's a lot of stories about what.
Mallory: He could be pulling out later.
James: Yeah, you'll see, and that's exactly what I'm getting at with Dawson's Creek. There are vampires hiding in the bushes of Capeside and other supernatural beings and you just haven't paid attention until we have pulled the wolf from your eyes. Mostly male and stall if I'm honest. They really drive this theory the most.
Cody: It's obnoxious. They'll shake me in the middle of the night to be like, I just thought of something.
James: Vampires.
Cody: Very frightening. We open with an emotionally crushed Dawson grieving the loss of his relationship with Jen to the tune of Savage Gardens Truly Madly Deeply, spilling his guts to Joey that she has rejected everything that he believes represents him. Joey isn't having it and tries to switch gears to watch a movie. And when she turns the TV on, it automatically plays Dawson's footage from Jen from the now forgotten monster movie, making him even more sad.
James: And correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this actually the footage from the opening?
Mallory: Yes, you are correct.
Cody: Creek.
James: Yeah, um, I love that detail.
Mallory: Every time we've seen that, I hope.
Cody: They never stopped reusing it.
James: Why is this what was in Dawson's VHS? I think we know why this is.
Mallory: Watching her. He's been watching her.
James: I don't think he's just been watching her. If you know what I'm looking yeah, uh, maybe.
Mallory: I thought the intro shot was interesting. We're seeing him framed the window frame, dawson's in the frame and then Joey is in the background. So in a way it felt like we were like spying on them. It's the first like 35 seconds that we're actually seeing the frame. We're not in the room yet, so I thought that was interesting.
James: And the end too.
Mallory: Oh no. Well, that is at the very end. Yeah. Um, and also you see Dawson is watching Jen so this is kind of almost what Jen would see if she were looking. And so I thought that was an interesting set up for the scene.
Cody: And as the audience, we are the ones that are spying on these characters, right? Yeah, it's a good framing device.
James: Mhm. I noticed jumping ahead just a little bit in the scene when Joey is sitting in the director's chair next to the bed, there's also Dawson's director's chair behind Joey. Did you guys catch that? There's two directors chairs in his room. One specifically for Dawson over her left hand shoulder, the TV's right hand side, and then there's the chair that she is in. So HM. I don't know what that means, but it's got to mean something. Probably the vampires are real.
Mallory: Probably.
Cody: Point of evidence.
Stella: Um, I don't know if anyone else noticed the Et doll that is usually like, I think on his bed was on his computer.
Mallory: Maybe he has a couple. I think there was another one on his computer and he picks it up for a second when they're talking as if it's like comforting him. Did you notice that? I did not oh yeah, there's a second where he's like holding it.
Stella: Yeah, that's, uh, fun. Um, but I didn't notice it on his bed so I was wondering if it was because I have noticed a couple so I wasn't sure. But I feel like I want to start tracking through the Et dolls.
Mallory: Yes, start tracking it.
James: Definitely by the end of the series he's going to be a full character that's just walking around cape side.
Mallory: He's got like a bag of ETS.
James: It's like the log lady from Twitter. Um et man. My Et has something to tell you.
Mallory: It's not like one for different stereos party et.
Cody: I wonder if he has to like when he masturbates to the end footage. I wonder if he turns the Et away because of shame.
James: You can't see this yet.
Mallory: It's like his own elf on a shelf.
Cody: Oh, baby. Also the fact that, uh, he wants to watch Sid and Nancy, which is interesting because murdered his girlfriend.
Stella: Is this the first time that we don't actually see them watching a movie?
James: Yeah, they boot up the opening credits but they don't actually watch a movie. They reference one.
Stella: But.
Cody: There'S episodes that we've seen where they're just watching monster footage.
James: Sure. Like nondescript, right?
Mallory: We still saw the screen with Jen.
Cody: It's mhm grotesque. I can't believe he's watching that.
James: Yeah, it feels really bad. It feels really gross. And I for one just love that Joey is calling him out in this moment. Like she's constantly calling Dawson out. I think that is basically her role in the show right now. But being so upfront with him, like, how are you this heartbroken when you just met this person? You still don't know who she is. And he is moping so aggressively. So I love that Joey is trying to call Dawson on his shit as much as possible because somebody needs to.
Cody: Mhm and also, uh, uh, be silly of us to not talk about how this is laying up a theme of Dawson saying that she rejected everything that I am. So obviously this episode is him being like, I'm going to try something different and see where that goes.
James: Um, yes.
Cody: Certainly works. He's learning.
James: He's not just a robot.
Cody: He's not just a robot. He proved it. As our ears are graced by the sounds of touch, peel and stand by days of the new human pig fart an XBF of Jen. Billy climbs through Jen's window, investigating her room like a 70 serial killer before popping onto her bed. Grams and Jen are startled by his presence and Billy lets us know that he's sticking around town and wants to get back with Jen, to which she shuts him down, proclaiming that she is no longer weak and vulnerable.
Mallory: Okay. So did Billy take Joey's ladder?
James: Yes.
Mallory: I wonder if it has to be Joey's ladder.
Stella: I was like, where did this ladder come from? Did he just take it from Dawson's?
Cody: House.
Mallory: Totally.
James: Yeah.
Mallory: I just love the idea. And I kept thinking like, the only thing that would have made the end of this scene better is if Joey came and took it back. And he had to then climb out of the window down the house to get out of Jen's room.
James: Uh, I was confused. It took me a moment to be like, does he just have a ladder in his truck?
Cody: Oh no, of course.
James: From Bernie, Joey's neighbor. I love the analog of like Joey climbs in Dawson's window so Billy's climbing in Jen's window. This is like the shadow universe. It's the bizarro world. Um, there are a couple of really funny moments at this scene. I copped a couple of audio clips and I took a screenshot which post on our social media. But it's the moment when Graham sees Billy in Jen's bed and Billy's expression is like, you're not Jen. But this is the moment, uh, when Graham finds Billy in Jen's bed.
Mallory: Jennifer, would you come up here now please and bring the telephone and you.
James: Would be quite comfortable. Thanks.
Mallory: Name Billy. Billy. Oh, I've heard about you. I'm shocked that she didn't have a stronger reaction to Billy Lange in Jen's bed. Like do a random man in her house. Yeah, she didn't like jumping.
Cody: Graham's is not cool as a cucumber as uh, this episode makes it out to be. Because if this happened two episodes ago she'd been like, oh my god.
James: Yeah, look at how I don't know.
Cody: What that accident was. It was uh, me having a stroke. But yeah, she would have lost her mind because her mind would obviously had gone to the conclusion that Jen is having sex in her bedroom.
James: We're fairly able to contain herself at multiple times in this show.
Stella: Love, Jen's confidence, her ability to stand up for herself. I feel like we don't see a lot of that in general represented by teenage women. Um, so that was pretty cool. Made me happy and just proud of her.
James: That moment was cool. I kept that. I'm going to play it. We don't have to keep it in the episode, but I think it's cool to hear her say this. Uh, it used to be fun. Do you know that?
Mallory: No. I used to be weak and vulnerable.
Cody: Does anyone have a relation to this song? I used to think the song was so fucking sick when I was a kid. Yes.
James: Never, uh, had heard it.
Mallory: M. I think I heard it but I didn't know. I don't know, it just sounds like a lot of 90s music.
James: Exactly.
Cody: I mean, like now this is the result of Kurt Cobain dying. Like uh, post grunge and all of that fucking, uh, awful music. I would say this is like the cherry on top of that bad music.
Mallory: So when Jen tells Billy that she and Dawson are on hiatus, does everyone think that? She thinks that maybe they'll get back together or do you think she's telling that to Billy to get them to lay off? Do you think she actually thinks that they're only on hiatus?
Stella: Yeah, I was surprised by that. Uh, my impression was that she thought maybe they were going to get back.
James: Together, but I don't know, I think it's writing convenience. Keep that door open. That's why they did it. They probably realized she, uh, had very definitive and much like real people, you're very definitive in the moment and then after you get away from it a little bit, you're like, yeah, I just.
Mallory: Thought it was interesting for her to tell that to Billy instead of being like, no, we're broken up. Like she's saying we're only on hiatus.
James: Yeah, it could potentially just be a defense mechanism to the point she's just trying to tell this so that Billy backs off. But I would also say she knows Billy is not going to back off no matter what. She's been so persistent up until this point. I don't think anything is going to stop him.
Cody: Later that morning, Billy sits on his convertible peeling an apple with a pocket knife as though he's in shoshing prison. As Dawson approaches, Billy gets under his skin regarding the breakup and proposes a horny teen boy odyssey by the means of driving to Providence to hit up a club, uh, with a wish that a sexual adventure will take Dawson's mind off of Jen. Dawson agrees when he realizes he can weaponize the situation to make Jen worry about what he's doing out of town.
Mallory: OK, hear me out. Billy is the evil queen in Snow White holding the poison apple, waiting to give Dawson a taste. Dawson is Snow White.
James: Certainly is.
Mallory: Billy is luring Dawson into his bad boy world.
James: Yes.
Mallory: Right. Why else would they give him a red apple?
Stella: Yeah, totally.
Cody: The show does feel extremely or. This episode feels extremely purposeful.
James: And everything that they're saying, I screenshot at that moment as Dawson is contemplating what Billy is saying. Uh, he came so easily.
Cody: Oh my God.
Mallory: He came so easily.
Cody: Oh my God. Okay, just like props to this episode cinematography. The way that we have to put this on Instagram, but the way that the shot is set up with Dawson being larger in the frame with Billy being small on his shoulder. It's like the devil on his shoulder.
James: And this is where to your point, Cody, I feel like it starts early with this episode, doing fun stuff with the camera, the way that they're shooting these scenes because this kind of like foreground background stuff doesn't really happen most of the time. No, it's just like, okay, stand up for the camera. Um, and it feels like they're like, okay, we've kind of figured out how to have our normal shots go. Let's start trying something beyond just a basic shot. Um, but yeah, I mean, Dawson plays right into Billy's hands. In this moment, I captured Billy's manipulation here, and he plays Dawson like a fiddle. Let's just take a listen, man. If I lived 50 yards away from her, I swear to you I'd go insane. Stare up at her window, wondering what she's doing.
Cody: She's talking on the phone.
James: Who is she talking to?
Cody: And if she's listening to music, who.
James: Do those songs remind her of? Does she still think about me so does she think about me half as much as I think about her?
Mallory: She's the evil queen.
Cody: He's luring him m in also to that effect that is also an allusion to Satan, uh, as the snake tempted. Oh, totally. Apple.
Mallory: Yeah. Oh, right. Yeah, the apple.
James: I just love that. I wish it just kept going for another, like, 35 minutes. And if she's putting on shoes.
Mallory: Time dodge fresh.
James: Yeah.
Cody: Also, I, uh, audibly laughed at Billy just being like, I know the bouncer when it comes to getting children into a club. That is just man's life.
James: It's so funny.
Mallory: But he's underage, too, right? Billy?
Cody: Who knows? I think we talked about how he might be a little older.
Mallory: Okay.
James: I love the setup of this is like, um, Cohen Brothers level of perfection. It's a bar. Perfectly equidistant colleges. And they're so horny. They just want to find an underage boy to ogle. They don't care. They don't care at all. They just want a boy.
Cody: Yeah. I'm really excited when we finally get to Nina and the club stuff, but just wondering what their age gap could possibly be. Because she does, of course, the show fucking loves, uh, underage children having sex with adults. But she says she's in film school. Okay, so maybe she's like, an age appropriate, like, 19, 2021, 22, even though she's obviously played by someone who's, like, in her 30s. Um, but then she had that line about the ID to where I was.
James: Like, yeah, let's cut that one. Get that out there. Now we can't suspend our disbelief. We know.
Cody: You know, at this moment, it's like, okay, so let's say she's 18 years old. That's still an 18 year old sleeping at the 15 year old.
James: Still not good.
Cody: Yes. And also she was like, do I have to check your ID? That's a nice joke, but also, what ID would you have?
James: He's 15. Well, I got my butt path. Can, um, we talk about Dawson's outfit really quick?
Mallory: Insigne. Yes. At, uh, the street with Billy, right?
James: Yeah.
Mallory: Okay. We're talking about the barbers, but we're.
James: Still back on the street. Um, so he's wearing that, like, cream colored corduroy short.
Mallory: He likes that shirt. He's wearing it in a few other episodes.
James: I really like his outfit. I think it's pretty cool. Kind of cash, except for the college professor crimson crew neck sweater that he's got underneath the corduroy shirt and the super baggy acid wash jeans. He looks like a little boy. I have a screen shot later where he's in the hallway at school and he's like he's standing there like a little six year old.
Mallory: Very juvenile in this episode.
Cody: Yeah.
Stella: Uh, I'm just so excited for Halloween when we dress up like before. You're going to make a great job.
Mallory: Yes.
James: Oh, God.
Cody: I'll be Mr. Gold. Wonder he'll ever come back. Elsewhere. Cape side jack heartthrob Warren swings by, uh, walking to school Joey and offers her a ride. After some silly Ted Bundy banter. She hops in along the drive, warns demeanor shifts and he makes unwarranted sexual advances. He insinuates she's dating Dawson but also mocks her for being a virgin twitch. She says it's by choice.
Stella: I don't know. Okay, obviously he's an asshole. But I don't know if there's just something about me that felt like charmed by him, really, I would fall into the trap for sure. As a teenager, I would definitely be like, uh, okay.
James: My first note that I wrote for this scene is warren is funny and kind of charming at first. Oh my god. He's totally like shooting the shit for me. This would be the way that high school me would have approached somebody like, hey, I'm going to make some jokes, uh, around this. And he isn't too much of a brick yet. He isn't a total misogynist yet. He's just kind of like, uh, I wanted to be a cool dude driving with no doors on my Jeep with 1ft out in the door. Like, hey, you need a ride? That would be fucking cool.
Cody: So it's funny because I know him. Have you watched 6ft under?
James: Yes.
Mallory: No.
Cody: So yeah, uh uh. He dates Lauren Ambrose in that show and he's a fucking asshole. So in my mind he's also an asshole in, uh, the great teen, uh, romcom that we've talked about. Can't hardly wait. Okay, asshole in that as well. Uh, so as soon as he drove up, I just got bad vibes immediately. Even though they have really fun banter, uh, back and forth, I was like, oh, maybe this will be like a new love interest for her. But then that tonal shift is immediate of, oh, she's in the car now. I can be.
James: Uh, I found that upon my rewatch when he's like, oh, I'm doing this for community service. That's why he's giving her a ride. There's that nice little analogy to him then saying that he's doing this to get her the lie. This rumor that he starts is to get her out of her position. So he's kind of like, hey, I'm going to fuck up your life right now. You don't actually know it, but he's talking about the ride. But in reality he's actually talking about this rumor that he's already started. I think at this point in time he's already started this rumor. Or he's formulated it in his mind at that point in time as a.
Cody: Good sociopath, as lay out a plan. BB. Also just wanted to say shout out to the line. I thought the dialogue is really clever with their banter. Even when she's giving a shit. When she realizes she's an asshole. But I like it when she said there's no correlation between the slider and the sperm down. Yeah.
Mallory: I like seeing her stand up, enjoy the wind for a second. Cute.
Cody: Like, that's a classic 90s movie movie.
James: Yeah.
Mallory: And also Dawson does it later in this episode after they.
Cody: Uh.
James: Yeah. Oh boy, I forgot about that for a moment. Uh, but yeah, in this scene, in this moment he is just being such a prick. He's like, I capped the audio but we know everything he says. He's basically like, wow, girls shouldn't talk. Dumb stuff comes out of your mouth. We want to see my dick. That's basically everything she's saying in this moment.
Mallory: Joey had a really sassy line though at the end. Did you get that one about when she was talking about her in Dawson? She says we could be uh, Annotating the Kamasutra for all you know. She kind of does like a little head thing.
James: After she gets in her final word to Warren. In that moment she has this very sassy look on her face. I feel like that's why they booked Katie Holmes on this show is like her facial acting. She's so good at emoting mhm they.
Cody: Gave her a lot of opportunities this episode to shoot scenery too with her like fake crying later. Very expressive, very silly. Billy and Dawson make a quick stop at the school so Dawson can turn in his homework. Very cool. And one of his plans for skipping school hit Pacey's sweet little ears. He packs up his locker and decides he's going to join the fuck party. While Dawson is away, Jen and Joey run into the boys and Billy insinuates that they're going to a brothel. When the boys leave with Dawson, Jen reveals to Joey that Warren is spreading a rumor that they had sex.
James: Pacey's outfit in this scene. Oh my god, it's so good.
Cody: It's like bowling sheets.
Mallory: Yeah, those bowling shirts like the collared shirts.
James: But he's a very m large. The sleeves almost go down to his wrist. It's incredible.
Mallory: Yeah, you're right. They're kind of like really roomy and then are really long.
Cody: He looks like uh, he's a juggler. ICP fans like always wear their yes.
James: It's so good.
Mallory: Jen's hair is very on point in this scene. She had like the little flip, the uh, flip in and flip out and it was like perfectly done. I remember trying to do my hair like that in the never being able to, so that was pretty cool.
James: I like the little detail that Billy introduces here. This game that he's playing, right, that he's taking them to a brothel and Dawson doesn't know that. He's completely unaware of this and he's like playing fully into the hand. Joey is so gullible. She believes it. Even Pacey believes it. I wonder if Jen believes it. Does Jen see through what Billy is doing here about taking him to a brothel? Or is she also believing it too?
Stella: It kind of seemed like she seemed convinced or like she was concerned about what was going to happen.
Mallory: I bet she thinks he's taking them out to maybe a nightclub or strip club. Not necessarily a brothel. She knows Billy so she probably knows that he knows the bouncer at a club. And she's probably like, oh yeah, I'm sure he's going to this place. I bet she yeah.
Cody: Uh, I don't know. But later when Joey and Jenner are sitting on the porch, you would think they would say something because Joey is like, I can't even imagine doing those masculine things or whatever the fuck. But you would think that Jenna would be like, oh, they probably just went to a strip club or something, right?
James: Yeah. It's really odd to me because I would think Jen would either be like, I feel like she would say something in that moment or she would, uh, be like calling his bluff and be like, you aren't going to fucking. I don't know. I found that a little bit odd that they were so quick to accept that that's where they're going without challenging it at all. But at the same time, he's the bad boy. He's wearing a leather jacket. I don't know if you guys know this, but that means he's like a bad boy.
Cody: He's peacocking as a bad boy.
James: Mhm. It sure is.
Cody: Also going to point out that, uh, my use of the term brothel is that is not, uh, uh, my ignorance is purposeful. I believe sex work is real work. And if there's a better word to use for a place to fuck, uh, that's paid for and I don't know it, let me know. And I would love to learn but I'm going to continue using that because I don't know another word to say. Bordello.
James: We're from the Wild West.
Mallory: Definitely not whorehouse.
Cody: Yeah. Jesus Christ, Joey.
James: So this rumor spreading fast. This has got to be the early morning part of the day, right? Dawson is showing up to turn in his homework and this rumor is already going around. It's already made to Jen's ears. Granted, she does hang out with the jocks because we've seen her interacting with Cliff and all those guys, but still, it's like, damn, he wasted no time whatsoever.
Cody: It's like, get out of the car.
James: And he's like, hey, I fucked her. You need to know this. We fucked.
Cody: It's similar to the Pacey Tammy rumor because that was also as soon as they got to school, everyone yeah, maybe.
James: They have early they have like internet beta, internet 1.0 and cell phones. Way before smartphones were real. It's just like, oh my god, did you hear about Warren having sex with, um, Joey? I was going to say Katie Holmes.
Cody: I feel like before text messaging was big with cell phones. Do you remember they had those little Motorola devices where you could send it was like the midpoint between beeper and cell phone.
James: The two way pager.
Cody: Yeah, it was like you could text each other to each other's paid for beeper thing.
James: Yeah, my dad had one of those for work I remember. And uh, I remember thinking it was so fucking cool.
Cody: I thought it was amazing. Yeah. Wow, technology. That was amazing.
James: Wasn't that at least I want to say either maybe this is like different, maybe this is just for economy's sake but I feel like all I remember those pages were numbers. Like they didn't have text yet. Like t nine wasn't around yet so you'd get like a two way beep that would be like 85439 two. But granted I was a little boy so who knows? My dad was probably just like, yeah, we have to decode this stuff. It's really hard. Well, I think that brings us to our first commercial break of the day. So we will see you guys on the other side of some donuts.
Cody: I think there's one thing we can all agree on and it's that Dawson is a terrible friend. He certainly has never done anything that didn't satisfy his own lizard brain urges. Which is the opposite of you sweet, gentle listener. You're a tremendous friend. Which is why I trust that you'll lend us a hand and help us in a huge way by rating, reviewing and subscribing to Freaks and Creeks at Dawson's Creek Podcast. Hey, that's the podcast you're listening to right now. For every rate and review it helps us stand out among the rest and possibly reach some soon to be Creek freaks. I think we can all agree that Joey would give us five stars. Thanks friends. And we're back. As a means to venture to Providence, billy and the boys hop on a car ferry. Pacey gives Dawson a talking to saying Dawson is always playing by the rules and is an all around Richie Cunningham.
James: Uh, no. I did it again. Cody. You're not Dawson. I know this. I know that you are not Dawson. But you must have been so happy when this music played because did you know that fish was going to be in this episode of Dawson's Creek? Take a listen to this.
Cody: This type one tray is sick.
Stella: Fun jam.
James: It's a perfect little fairy ride music. I can see, uh, some nitrous vendors selling some balloons on the deck.
Cody: Listen, I love fish and it's easy to mock me for it, but also at the same time I'm self aware enough to know that that sounded exactly like fish. That was great at a good time.
James: If that's what fish is like, except in uh, less than 30 minutes increments, I would definitely be down with it.
Cody: Uh, Tranisasio band is playing September 25 at Edgefield. If you want to come and see me and John wear puka shells and dance.
James: Creek freaks find us there. We'll be rolling around in the mud.
Stella: We do a, uh, live recording there.
Cody: Have you seen Dawson's Creek?
James: Why do man on the street interviews with people at the fish show about Dawson's Creek?
Cody: Um, not a bad idea. We should do that.
James: Um, this scene was interesting to me because in my head we've just left school. But in the show, it is golden hour on the deck of this ferryboat. Yeah.
Mallory: How many hours is this trip?
Stella: I wondered that throughout this episode. Quite a bit.
Mallory: Yeah, they're, uh, in Massachusetts and they're going to Providence, Rhode Island. Right. So it's just like a little short trip. Yeah.
Cody: Well, they say at the end it was just 24 hours, but the way that I mean, it's a TV show and they have their limitations, but there's multiple shots in this episode. We're like, what year is it? Why does it keep changing? But, yeah, golden hour. It looks like the sun is setting. It's beautiful.
James: Yeah, it was really, um, confusing to me. And then especially in our next shot of the ferry, it is significantly earlier in the day now. It's morning time.
Cody: Um, maybe it's providence. Uh, UK.
James: Yeah, maybe. Who knows? I did think it was a beautiful shot, though. I understand why they took that shot.
Mallory: So did anyone else watch Happy Days reruns in the 90s?
James: No. Okay.
Mallory: Yeah, 90s. Like him comparing them to Happy Days characters.
Cody: Yeah, I loved it.
Mallory: Yeah, it was on all the time.
Cody: Yeah. You've never watched Happy Days, right?
Stella: I have not.
Cody: That's so sad.
James: I don't think I have either. Is that the one fawns?
Cody: Yeah.
Mallory: Because Dawson, uh, Pacey compares, um, the latest fonts and then dawson's? Richie Cunningham, then he's casey's Potsy.
Cody: Possibly.
Mallory: That was cute.
James: Yeah. Um, I've absorbed Happy Days pop culture just through Osmosis, but I don't think I could tell you a single aside from the A, I can't tell you much about that show.
Cody: Yeah, it just kind of occurred to me now, thinking about the comparison of Billy to the fonts, and I'm like, well, that's not fair because the fonts is cool. And then I'm thinking about I'm like but he was kind of, I guess, a quote unquote ladies man. I bet if we were to rewatch it, she'll be just as problematic as.
Mallory: Billy M. And then Richie is kind of innocent. So it's Dawson, the good guy.
Cody: Back at Capeside, Joey pulls Warren to a quiet corner in the cafeteria to accost him over the sex rumor. He tries to flip it, saying it would be a good thing for their reputations. Joey calls him a bastard, and in turn, he loudly proclaims that he doesn't want her to be his girlfriend to embarrass her. She runs out and Jen falls to comfort her. The subject of Joey being with someone who is sensitive. Maybe someone like Dawson is brushed upon but switches gears when Jen says she might know a way to get back at Warren. Heavy shit.
Mallory: Yeah, I mean, uh, some more Jen and enjoy friendship development in this scene. That's pretty much all I got out of it. I don't know.
James: I did like the framing, uh, of when Joey is talking to Warren in the cafeteria and in the background over Warren's shoulder, it says, Capeside ah, minutemen were always on time or something like that because I mascot is the Minutemen. But I was just like, is this a little juvenile sexual humor? Like dropping it behind Warren?
Cody: That's really funny.
Stella: Also, I think when we leave the cafeteria there's a poster that says it's like a girl leaning against a guy and she's like, we don't need protection. Or I don't know, it's like something like that.
Mallory: Throughout this episode, I've noticed several posters like that. I'll mention some later, but yeah, some weird, I don't know, sexual.
James: Like, they've got to keep that sexual thread going in every aspect of this show. I liked this line from Warren. Um, it's when he's talking about how this can be mutually beneficial for both him and Joey. He says this no more shagging fly balls with wash outs and wannabes are such a bastard. I love that. No more shagging fly balls with wash outs and wannabes. Oh, that's great.
Cody: The baseball back and forth between them is so good. I also love Joey saying, uh, if you're the major league's Warren, I hope I never get out of a ball. Shit like that is so rich. I'm into it.
James: Yeah. Also not believable, I believe that Warren would say that. I don't believe that Joey would fire back with that. But it's cute and I love it.
Cody: Yeah, we're talking about a noir movie, right? From the 40s. This is very normal.
James: Um, I was massively put off by Jen being like, I always thought you would go for somebody, like implying dawson, that is your ex boyfriend as of, like, very recently, isn't it? Why are you yeah.
Cody: Every single time it seems like they have like a moment together about something, they just have to bring Dawson. This show is actively trying to not pass the Bechtel test.
James: Definitely.
Cody: Every time they have any kind of moment, it's like, hey, remember Dawson, the boy that we both have feelings for.
James: It all revolves around him. I do love, though, the ending with the girl time scheming between Jenny and Joey. I wish that we got a full episode of just them. Like, um, because that's great.
Cody: Back on the ferry, Pacey continues to dunk on Dawson's goody twoshoes vibe. Now he needs to start doing stupid shit and live a little. Meanwhile, Billy notices a couple of white trash drunks who are harassing some old people. To prove Pacey and Billy wrong, Dawson proposes an idea to get revenge on the inbred hills of Ice Hill. Billies.
James: I love these little nerdy wells on the ferry. This is my favorite part of the episode, silly. Just pouring beer on that old car.
Mallory: Yeah, I think that's a little later, but, uh, yeah, that was ridiculous. Okay, but the quote where Dawson for highminded conversation? You're the man.
James: Yeah. He's so deep.
Mallory: Not really.
James: Just look at these two and what they're doing here. There's a little old lady in this car next to them. They've got their feet up on her car and they're jeering and taunting her through the window with beard bottles in their heads. Why are you doing this one?
Stella: How old are they? They seem old to old to be.
Cody: Doing this kind of stuff.
James: And the ferry isn't going to be like, hey, don't do that. There's not a single employee on this ferry who's like, hey, actually we don't condone openly drinking on your vehicle and harassing the elderly.
Mallory: Yeah, and that's right before they drive off and their axle or whatever pops off. So a little earlier when, uh, Dawson gets this idea, he says it's inspired by American Graffiti, which has yes, in that movie, they do it to a.
Cody: Cop car, a cab.
Mallory: Yeah.
James: So are they police officers, those two? In those narrative wells, are they the cops?
Mallory: They're acting like it Deliverance twins reference.
Cody: Oh, just deliverance.
James: The movie.
Cody: Is an American Graffiti. Wasn't that the inspiration behind Happy Days also?
James: I don't know, I thought you were the big time movie guy.
Cody: Yeah, I mean, I've seen American Graffiti. I'm not the biggest fan of that. Uh, happy days. I like better, I guess, which is weird. But I'm pretty sure there is some kind of, like, narrative where I was like, oh, we should just turn this into a TV.
James: Interesting.
Cody: As Joey plays with a photocopier new cast regular in My Personal Hero, abbey Morgan pops in to give her shit about the Warren rumor, joey breaks into tears, giving a Meryl Streeplevel performance and convincing Abby that she's pregnant and that Warren told her that it's her problem to deal with. Abby takes the bait and leaves. And Joey smiles maniacally, knowing her plan is going into a motion, stirring the witch's pot.
Mallory: Happy's bad baby just in time to spread a rumor.
Cody: When she came to that doorway, oh my God, it was like the clouds had parted in the sun shone on my face. She's just the best character in the show.
Stella: Yeah, I think when we watched it, you cheered.
Mallory: Yeah.
Cody: She's so fucking funny. I love her.
James: Yeah, I was happy this year and I was really happy that we got this line from her.
Mallory: Oh, that little puke.
Stella: Uh, sorry, Puke.
James: This music thing. I finally found a reason we heard.
Stella: Puke for the first time in The Breakfast Club. From Abby, I'm pretty sure. Interesting.
Cody: That's. Sorry, Puke.
Mallory: Yeah.
James: Uh, Abby, we missed you. Joey is laying it on so thick here. Yeah.
Cody: Killing it again. Shooting scenery.
James: Yeah, definitely. I thought at first she was laughing.
Mallory: It's like that classic fake cry where it looks like yeah, you're laughing because you're doing this. Something I noticed, uh, about this Xerox Room was there were several posters pertaining to, like, parenthood. There's a Planned Parenthood poster. There's a poster with a stroller on it right next to the Xerox, like the copy machine. And then on the other end, there's an AIDS poster. Did anyone notice this?
Stella: I don't think I did.
Mallory: Um, it says, quote, if you get the AIDS virus now, you and your license could expire at the same time. And it had a driver's license on it.
James: Yeah.
Mallory: I was like, wait, what? It had to be like a campaign or something back then about AIDS. So I looked up it's in the CDC archives. This poster is in the CDC archives. Uh, I can post a photo, but, um, it's from 1990, and it was a campaign called America Response to AIDS. And it's basically telling people that they could have been infected with AIDS in their teens and had it for years without knowing. But their way of showing this is like this expired ID. What up in the high school copy room.
Cody: Reagan sees the AIDS epidemic and does absolutely fucking nothing because he's the worst sack of shit that this country has ever seen. Worse than Trump. Uh, but I'm so glad that at the very least, we got a poster that had a very confusing message about a driver's license. At least that saved the day.
James: Yeah, definitely.
Cody: Yeah.
James: I mean, this kind of plays into, like, later on at the career fair when Joey gets pulled aside by Mrs. Tingle talking about it.
Mallory: Because that's her name now. Drop the R. I know.
James: Jason so fucking confusing. Anyway, she's, like, talking about how the family planning class here is so strong. And I was wondering, does she mean here at Capeside or is she talking about one of the booths that she set? Anyway, we can talk about that when we get there. And on that problematic note, we are going to go all get pregnant on this commercial. Uh, break up a bounce. We'll see you on the other side. Bye. Hey, everybody, James here. Just jumping in to give a quick plug for our social media. You can find us online at Freaks and Creeks pod. It's got plenty of great content. Get to know the host a little bit, see the funny things that we snap out of the episodes, and just join in on the conversation. We'd love to have you there. We'd love to get to know you. It's going to be a fun time. Also, go on over to our website, Freaksandcreeks.com. It's got a snazzy web player. You can send links to your friends, or you can even subscribe on all the different podcasters, all straight from our website. It's great. And we look forward to seeing you next week. Enjoy the rest of the episode.
Cody: We're back as the fairy hillbillies pound the last of their sixers, dawson connects a uh, hook and chain to their car's axle and faces it to the back of the boat. Our mischievous little hero pops back into Billy's car just in time for Pacey to moon them with his rock hard cheeks as they peel away the actual rips out of the backwoods truck and our heroes make their way to Providence to go to Bonetown.
Mallory: This is where they're pouring the beer all over that windshield activity. Like what?
James: That's what I, uh, do on the weekends.
Mallory: So rude.
Stella: Poor woman. She's just in the car.
James: Why would you waste beer doing that too? That's what I don't understand. I mean, it's cheap beer, so who cares? But at the same time aren't you enjoying it also?
Stella: M. I feel like we only see the mess with that woman.
Mallory: Yes. Why?
Stella: What does she do?
Mallory: What does she do?
Cody: To be fair now, I like to play devil's advocate.
Stella: I know you do.
Mallory: Is that Graham's in there?
Cody: Uh, yeah. What if the back of her car has a bumper sticker that's like some fucking Trump shit or queueing on Blue Lives Matter, whatever. And these guys are actual heroes? Um, these are antifa. Fuck this bag of shit for all the harm that she's doing to our society.
Stella: That sounds likely.
James: Mhm. Yeah, I believe it. That seems exactly like what's happening.
Mallory: I loved Dawson's little hop back into the car like he was so pleased with himself for being a rebel. Yes, it was very cute.
James: Yes. This was the action sequence out of James Bond that I mentioned earlier. It's incredible. He is like a little secret agent. He's just rolling around. I don't know, I was impressed. Brains over brawns. He doesn't need to be a big bad boy to do some things. He can use his filmic knowledge to still fuck the world over and it worked.
Cody: I'm disappointed in this plot point because it doesn't come back to bite them in the ass. I thought these were going to show.
Mallory: Up at the club.
Stella: I thought they were going to get fucked over somehow.
Mallory: Dumb and dumber.
James: They get beat up at the it would have been really fun. While they're waiting at the bus stop after Billy leaves them, who pulls up the pickup truck but with some tiny little dinky wheels on the back that they had to throw on to replace the axle or something. And they're like, boy, that would have been great. That would have been really funny. We should write for the show.
Cody: I know. I'm really excited for over the first to be continued. We're going to get this show because that would have been a good one.
James: Yeah.
Cody: They're sitting there giggling about the smooches in the car.
James: Mhm.
Cody: Get them.
James: I loved Dawson's celebration. Um, yeah, he's like woohoo. Yeah.
Mallory: Standing up in the car with his arms up. Yeah.
Cody: This man only knows cinema. He doesn't know how to celebrate himself.
James: No, he doesn't. His programming doesn't, uh, allow for that kind of emotional outburst.
Cody: Yeah, I didn't bring it up earlier, I forgot about this. But initially when they saw the Hillbillies, uh, Billy is the one to report the message and Billy's like, this doesn't look like my idea, but you're an asshole. This does look like your idea. This is what I imagine he does on the weekend. Just gets drunk and harasses old people.
James: Yeah. It's an interesting moment for him to suddenly have a conscience.
Mallory: Mhm, mhm.
James: You don't have any problems like fucking over Dawson and Jen's relationship, trying to sabotage Dawson in front of Jen for the future, but this is where you're going to draw the line.
Mallory: Yeah.
Cody: He doesn't mind emotionally manipulating other people.
James: But the elderly don't fuck with them.
Cody: Free game.
James: Unless it's Jen's mom then fuck with her.
Cody: But at the club known as the Pool Room Duck Club Duclurb, um, future sex offender Billy tells Dawson his system of how to get laid by first eyeballing all the girls he could possibly want to sleep with before moving in as though he's Leonardo DiCaprio in the Pussy Party. Additionally, Pacey Nonchalantly lists the women he's added to his mental checklist while he continues to play pool like a postal workers kill list. Yeah.
James: Still a bit of a sleaze. Yeah. He took two, maybe three huge steps forward and then this is just one step back. He's still a little bit of a fuck boy. Um, he does not have any game though, as we see.
Cody: Yeah. I'm glad that at least backfired like a cool guy again. This is what we've been wanting. We want to see their friendship, like, building and it just sucks that they're like, how do we build a friendship between boys?
James: Get lazy, baby. I do love a game of pool, though. Yeah.
Mallory: I wish we could have just seen more of their pool game.
James: Yes. Why didn't they throw some stakes down on that? Or that would have been another perfect time for those truckers to come in as they're about to finish their game of pool and they walk up and who's got next? Or something. And then they pour some beer on their face.
Cody: It's like, if I win, blah, blah, blah. You know.
James: Um, those nerdwells come in and burp into your microphone. This bar looks kind of cool.
Mallory: Yeah, right? The neon lighting was cool.
James: It reminded me of the, um, Roadhouse Tavern in Twin Peaks, except a little bit bigger, a little bit more 90s dance club. But m, I just love the look of 90s clubs and TV. They're just big open rooms with a bunch of tables and people just like.
Cody: Yeah, I like the designated dancing area kind of closed off from, m everybody else, but there's like nothing that really closed off the area. It's just like clearly just actors being like all right, dance to this metronome and uh, you'll be ignored.
Stella: There wasn't any fun kneel drop during this part.
Mallory: No.
James: Really?
Mallory: I don't think so.
Cody: Just background music.
James: Yeah. I would say this episode probably had some of the weakest music of the show so far.
Cody: Uh, I finally found a reason I need an excuse I got this time on my hands uh, you're the one to abuse. That's my favorite thing of all time. What do you mean?
James: You also got your fish. So you're biased.
Cody: Yeah. Anyway, when we go back and edit this episode, instead of the clip that you play, can we just play like a 30 minutes dance so all our gentle listeners out there, uh, be like.
Mallory: Why is this one 4 hours?
Cody: 3 hours. As the college fair is kicking off at Capeside known scarecrow vampire god Mrs. Trindle or Mrs. Tingle, uh, takes Joey aside to give her the what's what on raising children. When Joey realizes what's going on, she backs out of the conversation.
Stella: I felt like Miss Tringle. Um, or Tingle Triangle. Okay, that's funny that you said that because my notes autocorrected to Mrs. Triangle.
Mallory: I was like, who's that?
Stella: I felt like she looked like she could be Abby's mom.
James: Yeah.
Stella: I was like, is that Abby? Just with a lot of makeup and dress up.
James: It does look like she's way too invested in Joey's situation here.
Cody: I m wonder if it's because there's already Joey has been targeted by the school, by Oxford for her family. And I wonder if it's like all the teachers kind of know this. Maybe Triangle Tingle Triangle is thinking like, I need to pay special attention to Joey, especially with this situation that's arising because her family is well fucked.
James: Right? Um, yeah, I think it's interesting you'll remember from our detention episode. I propose that she is some m kind of ghost haunting the library and we don't get anything to challenge that. She's still stuck in just the library. She can't seem to leave and she only wants to talk about the sacrifices that women have to make. So I think that Mrs. Tingle Tringle Triangle, who was I'm pretty sure she was Mrs. Tringle in the detention episode. She is now Mrs. Tingle in this episode.
Cody: Oh, she was a Mrs. In the detention, was she? I remember because I remember thinking, my God, I want to meet that husband.
Mallory: Yeah, I think she's Mrs. Tringola.
James: Well, regardless, I'm now postulating that the reason that she is so invested in Joey here is because like Joey's rumor she got pregnant when she was 18 at Capeside High with Abby, maybe. With Abby. Yeah. Great idea. And she had to give emergency birth. She dies in the library bathroom and that is why she haunts the school library. And that is also why she is so interested in making sure Joey knows how. To be prepared for this baby that she's about to give birth to. I rest my case.
Cody: I find that to be as concrete of any evidence that I need Tingle.
Stella: Sorry, just to be clear, so no one has called her Mrs. Tingle at, uh, this point?
Mallory: It's not until later, until Joey says it in the kitchen. In Jen's kitchen? Yes.
James: Do you think that Mrs. Tingle you were just saying you want to know the husband. There's a popular author by the name of Chuck Tingle. Does anybody know who Chuck Tingle is?
Mallory: No?
James: Chuck Tingle. Go. Google chuck Tingle. You will probably find several books, um, one of which is, uh, pounded in the Butt by My Own Butt. And Chuck Tingle is yes, he is a satirical, um, erotic fiction writer, um, who is also a secret podcaster. Um, I won't reveal their identity to docs who they are, but, uh, this person, Chuck Tingle, has won many awards for their humorous erotic writing. All of which is just like the title I mentioned, somebody Pounding my Butt with My Own butt. Or what's this one say, Cody?
Cody: The physical manifestation of wardl pounds my butt as slightly frustrated but ultimately rewarding and meditative daily receiving.
James: Yes.
Cody: Book two of the Hugo Award finalist, chuck Tingle.
James: Uh, maybe that is who Mrs. Tingle's husband is. Somebody's got to be paying the bills if she is a ghost librarian. So I'd like to enter that into to the Capeside Cannon. Yes.
Cody: Wow, these book covers are amazing. This one is, ah, a velociraptor as a human being and it's not pounding by anything while, uh, I practice responsible social distancing. It's a guy giving a thumbs up.
James: Yes.
Cody: Oh, this is really fun. Oh, one thing, uh, I really like the casting continuity in this because one of the students that we see in the background was the girl that had whispered to Pacey that the rumor of him and, um, Tammy had been spreading. So I like at least recasting just to be the people in the background.
Mallory: That's cool.
Cody: Good. And meanwhile, Warren finds a sassy fatherhood bumper sticker adorning his locker and when he opens it up, it is littered with baby paraphernalia.
James: How do people just get into other people's lockers in these high school movies?
Cody: You just squeeze the doll through the little I have no idea.
James: Uh, that's the first thing that I always think of. Wouldn't you be like, I don't know, I don't care.
Cody: Listeners, what you're hearing right now is someone giving up podcast.
Mallory: That bumper sticker was labeled from the Concerned Parents of America. So it was like an actual yeah. And it said, anyone can make a baby. It takes a real man to be a father.
Cody: Did you research who that company is?
Mallory: No, I didn't. But it exists. Concerned Parents of America. Yeah.
Cody: I don't like that name.
James: Did anybody think that the song that plays in which is I'm Not Sleeping by the Nowhere Blossoms. Sounds just like the Bare Naked Ladies.
Cody: I thought it was being too as Billy continues to go down his laundry list of dating advice he probably learned while reading self help books from the famed early 2000s VH. Ah, one pickup artist mystery. Dawson sees a girl wearing a movie tshirt and jumps on the opportunity, making a fool of himself by simply being Dawson Leary. As Pacey fails elsewhere, Dawson manages to charm the movie maiden and she introduces herself as Nina. And Dawson admits her movie shirt is what grabbed his attention.
Mallory: Okay, the little two finger tap on the shoulder that Dawson does when he walks up to Nina, it's like a little kid, like at school, uh, will you be my friend? Show his age. He has no idea how to approach a woman at a bar.
Cody: Yeah, it's like he was asking if he could go to the Math. Yeah.
Mallory: Also, um, anyone Walking Dead fans out there? Okay. This is for Walking Dead listeners. Um, the actress is Melissa McBride. She plays Carol in The Walking Dead.
James: Yeah.
Mallory: Love this actress.
James: Some thoughts here. I'd like to propose. So you just said she plays Carol. I actually think, um, that Nina is Carol. Carol from The Walking Dead. Because look, in a couple of scenes here, we're going to hear Carol Nina. They're one of the same. Unload her baggage around, um, hooking up with people at the bar, with relationships and with kind of like she has no faith in men. Dawson restores her faith in men. She gives her his number and says, hey, call me if your girlfriend doesn't work out. I think what happens is Dawson never calls her. It breaks her heart. She had her faith in men restored by this boy. He's not a man. By this boy. And when he never calls her, she's like, fuck it. She goes on a bender. She gets in all sorts of trouble and she eventually gets pregnant by a man that she facilitated a sexual encounter with after a night in the bar. And she decides, I got to straighten out my act. I'm going to go by my birth name, Carol.
Cody: I'm going to move to the south.
James: And raise my child Sophia. I'm pretty sure it's that child's name. And then what happens? The Zambos come and they start eating and they eat everybody. And Carol is now alone.
Mallory: Those hair beads, though.
James: Yeah, that was a big part of my theory. You're right.
Stella: M. Did you ever?
Mallory: No.
James: Okay.
Stella: Because I remember hair wraps were big and I had a thing that little braids.
James: Little braids.
Stella: And I had a thing that twisted.
Mallory: Around kind of like friendship bracelet, like the yarn or the string that you could do that around your hair, that kind of thing.
Stella: Yeah, there's like a few different things, but I never saw beads like that.
Mallory: Not like big, bulky wooden beads.
James: Like she was on her way to a hackysack tournament.
Mallory: Yes.
Stella: Um, she just looked so much older than uh huh.
Mallory: College students. Oh, yeah.
James: Which is no knock on Melissa McBride. She's a beautiful woman, but it did.
Cody: Not work in this college.
James: Coed.
Mallory: Yeah.
James: No, I mean, she looked like a working woman who is like, there after her shift at work and then especially when Dawson is then like, mommy, can I have a glass of milk, please? It just does not work.
Cody: I'm really shocked by that. They could have casted anyone in this role. I wonder why they went with her. I mean, she's a really good actor. I don't know if she had good chemistry with Dawson himself, but she played the role well. She was fun.
James: She was able to talk, uh, convincingly as a film fan, which I think is really probably what they booked her for. Like, you can match Dawson's enthusiasm for film convincingly. Yeah. Did you guys catch Pacey's pickup line there?
Stella: That being the drummer?
James: Gold damn.
Cody: The response.
James: Yeah, I captured the response. This is probably my favorite moment in Dawson's Creek so far. So Casey walks up to this girl at the bar and he says, I'm the driver from Pearl Jam you. Which is the worst take up line I've ever heard in my life.
Cody: Works for me.
James: With Ella. I was going to say, did this work for you? But this, uh, is her response to that.
Cody: Hey there, I'm the drummer for Pro Jam.
Mallory: You you're dumber than.
James: Who. Do you think she's fucking with him? Did she hear him and she's just trying to get him to go away? Or did she really think that she was like, oh, you're dumber than who?
Cody: I think she's fucking with them. M. I think she's like, why is this 15 year old in a bar talking to me?
James: Why are you wearing your dad's bowling shirt? Why are you here? So did anybody get this joke?
Mallory: Well, it just sounded like you said drummer. Drummer. Or is there something behind it?
James: I think there's something behind it which we don't get in today's context that we would have gotten in context, which is why I'm bringing it up now. So Pearl Jam is the band that he mentioned. I'm the drummer for Pearl Jam. Pearl Jam. Their first major release is 91. It's 98 in this time. Between 91 and 98, they had five different drummers. And in 1998 they got their current drummer, Matt Cameron, and it was kind of like a big deal that they got another new drummer. So my guess is Pacey is playing into this joke about how Pearl Jam has this rotating, totally drummers and hey, I'm the new drummer. Okay, that's a nice little detail that is totally lost in today's day and age.
Mallory: So he knew about this? His character knows this? Yeah.
James: If you Google pictures of Matt Cameron, the drummer that I'm referencing, who started in 98 for Pearl Gym there's really no resemblance to Joshua Jackson or Pacey in 1998 aside from the fact that they're both white men with short hair.
Cody: He's like a tiny skinny man, right?
James: Yes. He's fairly stringy. Yeah. But I thought that was a fun little detail and like I said, it made me think smart.
Cody: I'm glad you researched that. That was really funny.
Mallory: Yeah, that's cool. Speaking of pickup lines, I feel bad for Nina because she automatically has to explain that she'll be out of here if anyone gets through the Columbus pickup line.
Cody: M. Yeah.
Mallory: Uh, pornina.
Cody: Yeah, pornina. I had earlier talked about how much I like the cinematography of this episode. The way the shot opens while it tracks through the entire bar. Uh, I feel like the intention behind it is really gross, but I thought it was a really great way to show everyone in the bar, which forces the audience to think like, oh, well, who is Dawson going to go for? If the entire conversation has been about like, oh, who are you checking out? Who are you checking out now as an audience, you're like, who is Dasm going to check out? But I thought it was like a really unique way to do that because it makes your wheels turn a little bit.
James: I, m was curious who Dasm was.
Cody: Going to go for in the club.
Mallory: They actually stopped it for a moment. They slowed down for a moment at Nina. Yeah. And I noticed her. So it's cool that they are sure. Yes. I researched this. Cody so film threat. I found the website online, but I looked at their about page because I wanted to know the history because if there's a website now, like the 90s, um, so it began in 1985 as a Xerox fanzine. Um, it was started by some students at Wayne State University in Detroit. It was, uh, in support of indie filmmakers, um, and speaking truth to the entertainment industry and supporting festival, uh, film festivals and indie filmmakers. And, uh, apparently they earned their reputations as disruptors by playing pranks on their film department.
James: Yeah.
Mallory: And then apparently they turned into a fully printed magazine in the 90s. Um, but stopped printing in 97. They had already launched a website in 96. So now that's what it is today. They have the website and they have an Instagram and they do the same things now, I guess.
James: Yeah. Shout out film threats. Yeah. That's so funny.
Stella: I wonder if Dawson knew what it.
Mallory: Was or if he was just like, film.
James: I wish that we got into that.
Mallory: Just a little bit more.
James: Yeah.
Mallory: Uh, totally.
Cody: Yes. They could have easily just had a thrown away line where he was like, he's like, oh, did you get the latest gene or something?
Mallory: Exactly.
James: Yeah. Or like, oh, I don't know, something. I love the piece they did on Steven Spielberg.
Mallory: Great.
Cody: I thought the review for The Lost World Jurassic Park was a little overblown. I thought it was a perfect phone. While Jen finishes up her palms, her sweaty grandma spaghetti dinner, joey wraps against the window like a vampire begging to be let in. She spills the beans about wanting to drop the pregnancy rumor, but Jen doesn't want her, as Warren hasn't got in as much deserved flack yet. Joey twists this around saying Jen doesn't care about Joey, but instead is using this as an opportunity to get back at men in general. Jen drops a truth bomb that Joey is scared to death now that Dawson is single and Joey no longer has an excuse to blame someone for keeping Dawson from her. And Joey leaves.
James: I'm glad you reminded me of this because I did think this was a strange thing and it sparked my memory because I was joking about how maybe the vampirism passed from Bessie to Joey after the childbirth, or that potentially Joey was a vampire all along, so I'm not ready to commit to it, but that's a damn good point. Cody.
Mallory: Uh, anyone noticed that Jen was eating pasta and drinking milk?
Cody: Yes. God, this showing milk. Yeah, I mean, when Stella and I were watching this, my eyes were fixated on the screen, but then I just heard this horrible sound. I was like, I was like, what the fuck is that? And I turned to my left and I just see salivating goo all down her shirt and she just saw that empty glass of milk and just mommy want milk.
James: That's disgusting. Well, that's what you did.
Stella: Okay, sure, why not? Did she have a glass? I just saw the curtain that was.
Mallory: Empty with the carton and she was dipping her bread in the pasta.
James: It's probably pouring that milk in her.
Cody: Oh yeah, for her. It's funny, listeners, you just heard Stella trying to pretend to be a normal person and think that's where in reality I've seen her just like a kitty cat take out a tiny little plate and pour milk on it and then wait for it to become room, uh, temp and then just slam her face into it.
James: Not true, she does have a milk mustache. Right now it is the surface.
Cody: For a while I just thought she had just a white mustache.
Mallory: Okay, do you have the mischief?
James: Yes.
Mallory: M, the audio no.
Stella: Oh thing. So yeah, Joey calls her Miss Tingle, um, but this is the only time we hear in the whole episode she's called. So I don't know, I was like, is this just like a mistake and they didn't catch it?
Mallory: Did they film it before they filmed, um, detention possibly.
James: Yeah, that's actually a good point. Maybe this is before then.
Mallory: Yeah, I think they would have redone the scene.
James: You'd think?
Cody: Production is fast, probably even catch it. Or if they did, they're like fuck it.
James: Or uh, maybe they were trying to be because teenagers make all sorts of jokes on their teacher's names and maybe it's more of a delivery thing and Joey actually was trying to say like Mrs. Tinkle but that K got softened in the delivery and it sounds like tingle, but you know what I mean. I don't know. We're now like in total fan theory mode, which is my bag. Okay. But, um, yeah, I don't know, I thought that was a little bit strange because I swear to God it's been Mrs. Tringle. Yes. At every moment until now. Maybe there's another one. Maybe they're twins.
Stella: Well, gangers, how's.
James: Grandson? Yeah.
Cody: I wonder if they'll ever mentioned them again. We should start having an internet poll or something. No, but what do you think they'll mention first? Gramps or, um, the movie? Will anything ever come in?
James: Write us if you haven't seen the show. What do you think?
Stella: Uh, I don't know. Yeah.
Mallory: Any thoughts on the conversation between Jen? Joey is still trying to create this conflict when Jen is just trying to be nice. Joey keeps bringing back to this conflict.
James: Between them and can't get over it.
Mallory: Can't get over it?
James: Yeah, even when she's ostensibly one and they've broken up. You know what I mean?
Cody: It grinds my gears that we have to have this conflict in this episode. Especially when it leads to nothing. It's squashed within two scenes. So, uh, why was this necessary? I guess just to keep you hung on for that commercial break.
James: I don't know. Yes, I think it's to add that tension and I think it's also to justify the product placement of the Brayer's ice cream that they're then eating in the scene when they're on the I think it's bread m in the mud room. Yeah, I was, um, annoyed with Joey deciding to choose, uh, violence in this moment. She hate she chooses to hate you now. And on that note, we're going to go choose violence and take a commercial break. So we will see you on the other side.
Stella: Hey, you Creek freaks. Stella here. Did you know the number one way you can help us grow is by telling your friends about the show? New shows like ours thrive on the power of word of mouth. Which is why I'm here now asking you to please tell a friend about freaks and creeks. They don't even need to watch Dawson's Creek. They sure didn't stop, uh, us. Thanks for listening and for sharing the good word. Now back to the.
Cody: Episode. And we're back at the pool room. Dawson and Nina debate the merits of Spielberg as an artist until Billy shows up mocking Dawson in advancing on Nina. Nina in turn, invites Dawson to leave with her. Outside, things get awkward as Dawson has a realization that bonetown is an actual, tangible possibility and admits that he's just been dumped and his friends are trying to get him laid. Nina still insists on a sleepover but Dawson declines citing his still relevant feelings for jen, but still our titular hero goes in for a smooch and she accepts. As she leaves, she asks him to call her sometime, leaving the door open of a, uh, possibility that one day Dawson will marry Nina.
James: One day we'll find out Billy's an asshole. Here's proof. Have you in film school. Hey, Dawson, I got that chocolate, uh, milk you ordered up at the bar.
Mallory: There more milk?
James: Oh, yeah, more milk.
Cody: Now I have a question for Stella. Do you like chocolate milk as much as you like regular milk?
Stella: Here's the thing. I mean, I don't love milk.
Cody: I just like it.
Stella: I just like it in specific situations where I feel like it complements a sweet treat and it feels like cookies.
Mallory: Mhm.
Stella: Feels like thirst quenching.
James: I don't think I would ever describe milk as thirst quenching. I definitely agree with you sometimes. Milk and cookies. Milk and oreos specifically. I was that kid who just dropped an Oreo and the milk and then just fishing out three, four, maybe a.
Mallory: Week, then it's Oreo milk.
James: You could drink it. Oreo curdles. Yeah, I get chunky.
Cody: I might vomit.
Stella: Okay, um, so I'm not like a big chocolate milk person, but there is, I think I've gotten this for you before. Um, I think it's called Gary's Milk. They have it at New Seasons and maybe other places and it's in like, a glass jar. Is it manmilk?
James: Manmilk. Is it manmilk?
Stella: M. Yeah, but they make a chocolate milk and it's so good. I've definitely got it for you before, but you don't remember it's.
James: Okay.
Stella: That chocolate milk is bomb. It's a fun, like, treat every once in a while, but it's like you can't drink too much, but it's kind.
Cody: Of a little too much rich because it's.
James: Milk. Can I unburden myself with you? I'm safe, right? We're in a safe space. There's nobody listening to this.
Cody: Right?
James: Cool. Um, well, my cat is currently going crazy on the floor chewing a cable tie. We'll just ignore that. Um, okay, so when I was a kid this is related to chocolate milk. I love chocolate milk when I was a kid, but interestingly, I didn't really like drinking chocolate milk as much as I loved smelling chocolate milk. Do.
Stella: You know the story? I don't know, do you?
Cody: Oh, James has told me.
Stella: I think you told me that this story exists. I don't know if I know it.
James: Okay, let's hear it. When I was a kid, and I'm talking probably between the ages of like four and eight ish, um, I had blankets, as all small children do, right? You've got your baby blanket, you've got your childhood blanket. What I like to do with my blanket, however, was dip it into chocolate milk and then let it dry in the sun over a couple of hours or days or something. So my blankets would have all these little chocolate milk spots on them. And then what I would do is I would twist that baby up like a little Q tip, as thin as I could get it, as long as I could get it, and I would jam that thing up my nose. What? Yeah, baby. One nostril had my chocolate milk blanket as far up there as I could possibly get it because I loved the smell of chocolate milk, which I now know is spoiled chocolate milk. Sour chocolate milk. Oh, it's so sour and like, barely chocolatey at all. But there definitely are pictures of me with just a blanket shoved up my nose. Please send if I can find them. I will definitely, uh, send them. We'll post them online. Um, but it's my deepest, shame and greatest accomplishment.
Mallory: Can you add that to your, uh, Dawson Halloween costume?
Cody: Oh, sure.
James: Yeah.
Mallory: Um, and a blanket with chocolate.
Stella: I want to know how did that begin? How did you discover yes.
Cody: It's so funny that you did that with chocolate milk. Costello does that with radio right now.
James: Uh, thank you for letting me get that off my chest.
Stella: So specific.
James: It is incredibly specific. I forgot about it for a long time. And then probably like twelve or 13. I was cleaning out. Your parents make you clean your room? Fucking parents.
Cody: God, they suck.
Stella: Oh, no.
James: Did you find a blanket? And it still smelled good.
Cody: Did you show it up for I.
James: Don'T think I stuck it all the way up there, but I definitely gave.
Stella: It a little did your parents know what was going on?
James: Oh, yeah.
Stella: And they were like, oh, James.
James: They would occasionally take my blanket and put them in the dishwasher to clean them.
Cody: I don't know why.
James: It wasn't the washing machine, but they would put in the dishwasher, so they would occasionally do it. And then I would get very upset at them because those are my special blankets with my special smell. So if anyone wants to get me a gift, please get me a spoiled chocolate milk scented candle. Mal will love it.
Mallory: I do like chocolate.
Stella: It was just your birthday.
James: Yeah, it was. If anybody wants to, I'm all for it.
Cody: I'm imagining it's your birthday. You come home and there's, um, mal puts some, like, rose petals on the ground and you're just like, what sexy, fun thing is this going to be? And you go into the bedroom. Mouth has dipped her body in chocolate milk. And satellite a little bit about.
Stella: Me. Um, okay, so we're still at the bar, right? Oh, yeah.
Mallory: Because the Billy is like, Billy's chocolate milk. And then the Spielberg commentary, right?
Cody: Yeah, with the chocolate milk thing. First I want to talk about this because, um, do we think Billy is actually trying to interject and get with Nina? Or is this his wingman move to get them out?
Mallory: I wondered that as well. Um, it's kind of hard to tell.
Cody: He gives them a fan.
Mallory: Yeah. Like after, though. It was an afterthought. Like oh, mhm. There you go, bud.
James: I really wonder because there's no way that Billy would know that Nina would respond that way. That seems like Billy's move mhm is to be like, snarky guy.
Cody: We later on, Dawson figures it out that this is just his ploy. If Dawson gets with her, he can get back with Jen, but in his mind, is this a win win? It's like, if she's into it, then I get to sleep with this person. If not, then Dawson sleeps with her and then I get Jen. I guess that makes sense.
James: I think that Billy is probably like, if I can take away something that Dawson likes, then that's going to make me feel better. And then if when it backfires, he's like, just doing you a favor, bro. Yeah.
Cody: We should all live our lives like Billy, like, figure out a win win situation. In all kind of events come out on top.
James: So that Spielberg commentary.
Cody: Cody, did you capture it?
James: I really wish I did, but I didn't. The only thing, uh, I didn't capture.
Cody: Anything related to the good thing. I wrote down the entire dialogue.
James: Oh, thank God.
Stella: Yeah, I want to act it out together.
Cody: Oh, do you have the dialogue too? No.
James: Okay, make it up. I think you'd probably get it pretty close.
Cody: I hope Nina has a letterbox. Nina, uh, says, Corses, Kubrick, those are directors. I can't believe you're a Spielberg fan. The guy makes slick fairy tales. Dawson says, Movies by nature are escapist. If you want reality, look at a window. Nina, come uh on. He's a schlockmeister, Dawson, whose movies have done a billion dollars of box office. Nina says, I can't believe you're equating mainstream popularity with artistic merit. By that logic, we should be studying Ace Ventura in film school.
James: Yeah. Cody, is this when you came in your pants watching this?
Cody: No, actually, I would never want to date a film that would drive me absolutely nuts because movies are just like a hobby for me. And I mean, I write too, but that would be boring. I would never want to hang out with myself. Is it Mark Twain that said I would never join a club that had me as a member?
James: Sure.
Cody: Or whoever said that. Uh, don't tweet me. Um, but yes, for me, that would make me want to die. Um, but as a friend, Nina, that'd be really fun. She seems cool.
James: She does seem cool. She can hold her own. And I like, I definitely appreciate her perspective here and I love that she calls them out like, oh, so we're equating box office success with artistic merit? Are you fucking serious, dude?
Cody: Also, score. Susie and Kubrick have made a lot of very fantastical amount of movies. I mean, Kubrick made 2001 a Space Odyssey. Like, that's escapist as hell. What the fuck, Dawson?
James: What a jim dong? He's just an idiot.
Cody: I like that she called him a schlockmeister. Still is to this day.
James: Can we talk about their little moment outside?
Mallory: Yeah, that's the next scene, right?
James: No, they went outside. Okay, I thought so.
Mallory: 23.
James: Yes. Um, I loved Dawson when Nina is like, well, you're a Spielberg fan. How much danger could I be in?
Cody: M very true.
James: You have no idea. You like Dawson to your house. You got no idea what could happen here. He's an android.
Cody: Yes. I'm wondering. Okay, so she's an attractive woman that seems really cool and smart. Why is she desperate to get with fucking 15 year old dolphin out of all people?
Mallory: She's Miss Jacobs.
James: 20 mhm. Yeah. So this is where she says this line about cardi. I actually capped it. Let's just take a listen to it. I'm glad that I have this because I feel like this is representative of the show.
Mallory: Hurry up. Come on. Before I start listening to that little voice in my head telling me I should card.
James: You. Uh, you can't.
Cody: I really hope that character is supposed to be 18. Look at the rest of the cast, like in their mid twenty s and they're playing 15 year olds.
James: Let's just hope this is another moment, though, where we're going back and forth between capeside in school, it's the career fair, it's like the afternoon, but then in this moment where they're outside of the club, it's like dark as fuck, is it not? Yeah.
Mallory: Uh, so I think the college fair is an evening fare. That was my yes. It's like after dinner because Jen had dinner and then they went to the fair.
James: Yeah, yeah, I guess you're probably right.
Mallory: Because college, uh, they usually happen at night.
James: They happened like lunchtime at my school. But I felt like the timing in this episode was just so hard to understand. As we talked about multiple times in the show, it's just who knows when any of this stuff is supposed to be happening? How long these episodes really span, all that kind of stuff. But this is where it really hit.
Cody: Me over the head trying to think. If so, let's just say then it's October, November, and the sun sets at 435 o'clock. Then maybe the club scene is happening.
Mallory: At six and then the college fair is happening. And then afterwards they're having an ice cream thing on the porch and is dark. That's like night night.
Cody: Did anyone see how long it would take? Look up like bus tickets from Providence, Rhode Island to whatever town, massachusetts. Like, we could probably get where it might be. I wonder how long because Dawson comes.
James: Home in the morning. Early hours.
Mallory: Oh, right, yeah.
Cody: Back at the college fair, Abbey informs Jen that the rumor has evolved due to another student's knowledge of Warren Soft PP during boom boom time, which now makes Joey look desperate for attention in the eyes of her peers. Jen races. To tell Joey, who smiles exuberantly with the news.
James: What do you think Michelle Williams told? I really want to know in this moment because that seems like authentic reaction.
Cody: So good.
Mallory: Her eyes, like, realizing what Jen saying, so good.
James: Really lit up. Yes. I just thought that was such a charming little interaction.
Cody: Uh, and again, if we didn't have that scene where they fought, this would have still flowed perfectly fine without that distraction. It doesn't even seem like they fought at all.
Mallory: Yeah.
James: Mhm. I was worried that this was going to go a different way when Abby approaches Jen about this and she's like, that fucking lying bitch is talking about Warren. And I was like, is this going to turn into even worse for Joe?
Cody: Dawson heads back to the bar to meet with Pacey and Billy, who of course accost Dawson for failing to, quote, unquote, seal the deal. Dawson's brain gears begin to finally turn, allowing him to realize and exclaim Billy's hidden agenda. If Dawson sleeps with someone else, then it would make Jen possibly turn to Billy for comfort. He tells Billy off, who in turn ditches the boys at the bar.
James: Billy gets so dark here. I was pretty scared, like 180 there. Yeah. The real Billy emerges.
Mallory: Um, if you look closely in the scene, you can see that Dawson has smeared lipstick on his lips during the entire.
James: Scene.
Stella: So I wonder if this will be the last of Billy because he was supposed to go back to New York.
James: And then he didn't walk in here.
Stella: Yeah, I'm swinging here, so yeah. I wonder if this will be it for him.
James: I hope not. I like him. I mean, he's an asshole and total scumbag, but I like him. There's something about Billy that I like. He brings a chaos element, uh, to the boys that they don't have. I've got Abby for Abby for the girls, Billy for the boys. Exactly. I'm Team Billy.
Cody: In the hallways of an empty capeside hide, joey tells Warren she knows about that soft PP and uses, uh, it to leverage power to squash the rumor. Warren says that his true intentions that morning were to sincerely take Joey out on a date. And thank fucking God, Joey turns him down with a very saturated work of yeah, sure, just pick me up after my lobotomy.
Mallory: Sure, um, yeah, uh, just pick me up after my lobotomy. Yeah, joey, go.
James: Joey snaps.
Cody: Yeah. It's weird that when she walks away to Warren still has kind of like a sexy face.
James: Yeah, he's possible. I'm glad that she didn't. All I can say is, like you said, I'm so glad that she didn't fall for it because there was a moment there where I was like, this could work. Yeah.
Cody: It sucks that this is the type of show where you could see that.
James: Actually happening, uh, because all of the women just are like sympathy farms for the men. In the show they're just like, oh, you've got a sob story. That's cute.
Cody: Yeah, I think so far in the show we've only gotten one episode that has been credited to a woman writing the script and it was still even like a writing team too with a guy. I'm really excited for when the show does have a turn and they start having more women writers on the show too.
Mallory: Yeah, that'll be interesting.
James: Yeah, that would be nice.
Cody: As Dawson and Pacey wait in the pouring rain at an uncovered west stop, pacey inquires about Dawson's sex CAPAIDS and if they helped get him over Jen, dawson plays Coy but Pacey's keen eye points out the lipstick remnants of a smooch bringing the boys to Eruptuous.
James: Giggles. Yeah bro, fucking smooched her.
Mallory: The bench that they were sitting on has an ad for finding love like a love hotline. I don't know if you guys notice that.
James: Yeah, I love the neon girls girls side.
Cody: I've always wanted one of those in her.
James: House. Um, I love the little when Pacey calls out the lipstick on his face and he's got his life. He's so pleased with himself for catching it his little chuckle that he lets out. It's just cute. I'm glad that Pacey has vindicated himself just a little bit because it feels nice to be able to enjoy these moments between Dawson totally. And somebody else because you definitely can't enjoy these moments for Dawson. It's got to be somebody else to bring that around.
Stella: Mhm.
James: Yeah.
Stella: I just felt like Pacey was kind of like a fun little sidekick throughout this episode and I don't know, it was fun to just watch him have fun with Dawson and be a little supportive friend.
Cody: Yeah, that's cute. Yeah. I'm really excited for when his character, I mean, he's already developed so much since we got rid of Tammy but now I'm really hoping that his trajectory is to get him past being under the, uh, Robin to Dawson's Batman. I want him to have his own story and uh, stuff that's just like not involving Dawson. I want all these characters to move away from Dawson in their own lives.
James: It's shocking to me that Pacey is one of the principal characters and he's featured in just about every single episode in some way. Whether he's a small part of a storyline or if he's like the B story. He's been every episode just about and we still haven't seen a single second of his daily life. We haven't been to his house, we've met his brother, purely by happens, dance but it's just so bizarre to me.
Cody: Yes, it's weird that both Joey and Jen, like, we know all about their family tax and everything. All we know about him is that everyone in his family are cops. Yeah, they'll never not be funny. Uh, while Jen reads a book by candlelight on her porch, joey once again like a creature of the night wraps against the screen door to be let in. She brings with her an ice cream peace treaty and discusses the dissolving rumor. Jen asks if they can keep Dawson getting from between them and Joey agrees. At this point, Jen insinuates that Dawson may just be in love with Joey and not her. And then they don't on Dawson visiting a brothel.
James: I hated this scene. And then I hate the scene that follows it even more. These two scenes, literally, I take like two stars off of my rating just for these two scenes. I hate them that much. Uh, it really annoys me that felt.
Cody: Like such an unnecessary epilogue because all they talk about is just what just happened. It's like the worst exposition for stuff we already know. So there's no reason for it to exist other than being like, who does Dawson loves?
Stella: Well, Joey does seem surprised when Jen makes that comment about Dawson being in love with one of them.
Cody: Something I find even more unbelievable than all of this is jen is reading by candlelight. Yeah. What are we doing? Your eyes. Got to protect them.
James: Young people straight. I used to read at night on my bed with just, like, the night light besides my bed. And I remember that being enough to read by now I'm like 600 years old and even in the full sunlight, I'm like, I can't see shit. That's why I don't.
Cody: Read. Yeah, I, uh, have sensitive little blue papers and I need to have the biggest light behind my head. Uh, or else I can I'll be sitting on the couch and if there's a shadow that's like, forming around the light, I'm like, Fucking, I can't do it right now. This is bad. Also, what books do you think she was reading?
James: I was trying to pick two.
Cody: It kind of looks like the copy that I have of Frank Herbert's Dune. Is Jenna a little weird? Sci-fi head.
Mallory: I know. She lit seven candles. That means anything.
James: The work that she went through to go have that moment on the porch by herself.
Mallory: Yeah, seven candles. Blanket. It does look cozy.
James: Looks super cozy.
Cody: I'll never put that much work into reading for 20 minutes.
James: No. Get the fucking light on.
Cody: No light on after 09:00.
James: It'll attract the vampire. See, gramps is sleeping or.
Cody: Death. As all great works of literary fiction. The final sequence book ends this episode with Savage Gardens. Truly, madly, deeply. The morning sun has risen and Dawson finally makes his way back to his bedroom where Joey awaits for him. In their acute riffing way, Joey and Dawson riff on Dawson supposed sexual awakening. However, the riffing is kept vague enough to where Joey does not know if anything truly happened. Truly, Madly, Deeply as Dawson proclaims that he's happy he hadn't thought of Jen in the last 24 hours and turns to sleep. Joey tucks him in like a toddler and proclaims out loud. Yeah, I can wait.
Stella: A couple of things. Um, one, when Dawson comes in, um, he is wearing a red sweater and blue jeans. Joey is also wearing a red shirt and blue jeans. Isn't that fun? Um, and oh yeah, one of the things she says is, I bought capeside.
James: Starting full back, got pregnant or something.
Stella: Got knocked up or something got knocked up. I mean, I'm assuming that just means.
Mallory: Fucked.
James: But I've never heard of capeside. And it's cool 90s slang.
Mallory: Yeah.
Stella: Foft peak. And then, um, did his parents care where he was all night? He was just gone all night.
Cody: We've talked about his parents. They don't give a shit about him.
James: They got their own stuff going on. But, uh, I really like this little interaction Dawson has as he walks into the room and Joey asks how things went.
Mallory: Did you get everything? You went there for sure?
James: Non stop sex machine, Joey? Yeah, non stop sex machine. I love it because he doesn't know that Billy had shared this rumor, this lie that they're going to a brothel. So in his mind he's being jokey and funny. Like the non stop sex machine Joey, you would have been proud of me. Because in his mind he's like, I broke out of my shell. I talked to another woman. But in Joey's mind she's like, you were at a brothel? You just spent all night fucking? Yeah, uh, I think it's a cool little writing moment there that I appreciated.
Cody: Yeah, I think the miscommunication is really good, but I just hate how lazy it is that when she's like, so what happened? And he just goes, oh, Joey, I have so much to tell you, but I need to take a nap or whatever the fuck. It's like it was so stupidly convenient to just keep this vague enough to keep us tuning in next week.
Mallory: Also, she looks so sad when the camera is pulling away. Even though Dawson told her that he barely thought about Jen, she is still.
James: Well, she said because he's been getting his paper with I guess she wants that, I don't know.
Cody: Well, so my take with this is she was wearing lipstick in the scene, wasn't she?
Mallory: She was definitely dull. I don't think she's wearing bra because her shirt was definitely it looked like she kind of was like, okay, I'm going to look cute.
Cody: So I thought it was like her taking in what she had talked about with Jen. And she's like, maybe I should shoot my shot. Like, this is it. Yeah, um, it's sad that because like Wayne Gretzky and Michael Scott said, you miss 100% of the shots you don't take. Uh, it's sad that she just like, just dropped it as soon as he came in and was vague, like, come on, just shake him a little bit. Did you have sex at the brothel? And then he'd be like, brother, I know what you're talking about. And then they could kiss without it being a dare.
James: Yeah, it was a strange ending. Very, um, weird, strange episode in general, but definitely a strange ending that I.
Cody: Did not appreciate by three wishes. I would wish that every film, TV show, any kind of shot thing would end with truly, madly, Deeply. And it does. A dolly shot out of the window because that was beautiful.
James: Look good.
Mallory: There's a beautiful sunset scene right before that too. Right before we go into the bedroom, there's like the sunset. Transitional orange sunset.
James: Gorgeous. Well, should we get into our ratings?
Stella: Yeah. James, it's all you.
James: All right, I'll go first. Um, so, as you all know, I created a highly scientific rating system with multiple metrics in which to account for my personal enjoyment and rating of the episode. Um, I have plugged in my values and my rating for this episode is a 2.5, which I, uh, have some feelings about this because I actually do enjoy this episode. I thought it was fun. I really enjoyed it all the way up until, like I said, those last two scenes, if you took those last two scenes away, I'd probably be giving this episode closer to a four. But all things considered, I love that we get to see these relationships expanded a little bit. I love that we get to see the world expanded a little bit. And I like that we're seeing these characters develop ever so slightly.
Mallory: Um, I'm going to give it a three. I don't know, I don't have much to say about it. There were some good friendship developments other, um, than that, I don't know, it was like man, it was okay. Um, there was some good like Cody was saying, there was some good cinematography, like some different unique shots. Um, but I don't know, there wasn't a lot of good music, like, not a ton of good fashion, which I always loved to see.
Stella: But, um yeah, three also. I'm giving it a three. This episode did feel different in a lot of ways that we see kind of like the boys doing their thing, the girls doing their thing, and those friendships kind of growing, I guess. So I enjoyed that. But, yeah, overall, just kind of wasn't super exciting.
Cody: Uh, it's really confusing to me because before we started the show, I thought this was going to be more of like a melodrama relationship show that would be I always associated with having a women audience and, uh, more feminine. And it's shocking to me that while I watch episode by episode, dawson is more of a blank slate character that men are kind of like putting themselves into so we can experience life through his eyes and grow with him as his character develops. That was a weird cat sound. Um, uh, it's just like so bizarre to me because then they also do have those relationship dynamics. But then again, they all just form around Dawson. It's like the total male gaze and male wishful thinking of being like, well, I'm the main character in my own story and women only talk about me or think about me. It's very fantastic. Especially coming from a gay man that wrote the show. You would think m, it would be way different. Um, but it's not very strange.
James: What's your rating?
Cody: Well, yeah, so going into this, uh, for my rating, two and a half, uh, without any scientific metrics, I would just say this episode is half good. That's how I'm viewing it. Um, I really like the visual storytelling. I think that they actually raised the bar with the, uh, actual filmmaking. I think it looks very beautiful. Much better than it has been before. I like some of the character beats that are happening with Dawson actually changing and growing and learning. I like Joey and Jen working together. The Girl power stuff was really fun but then again they had to yes, girl power, um, they had to slam in that fucking bullshit about Dawson and how it has to relate to Dawson. Like we've already talked about Bechtel test.
James: They fail the Bechtel test at like every fucking opportunity.
Cody: It's almost like they're trying to I know and it just sucks too, because I want to see Dawson and Pacey grow's characters and it's like, this isn't it man. Don't make it all about them trying to sleep with people and that's how they're going to connect.
James: Yeah. I have a feeling that we're going to see a markedly different show once we get to season two. I feel like they're like scatter gun approaching. They're taking a scatter gun approach to the show in season one where they're just like, let's throw as much at the wall to see what sticks. And I have a feeling that there's going to be a tonal shift as well as everything else that usually see with the second season. Better acting, better writing, better everything. But yeah, this episode feels very different than we've gotten from a lot of the episodes and I guess it does make sense because it is, as Pacey puts it, dawson's evil twin episode where it's supposed to be us exploring this darker side of Dawson. So I guess it makes sense but still.
Cody: I don't know if there are any other uh. Boy Meets World fans here but uh. I really liked that show when I was younger and recently some of the cast have started a podcast like doing a rewatch of it and I've listened to the first several episodes they've done and it's really great listening to an all cast perspective because they talk about how that show started and that's also a show that was very of the. Their perspective is so interesting because that first season of Boy Meets World. I don't know if you remember that compared to the rest of that show. But it's very kitty obviously because the cast were younger. But also very different than how that show ends.
James: Uh.
Cody: Up being into. Like. A regular sitcom. And it's very weird. And so hearing their perspective of it, uh, like the character that plays Sean Hunter, right? Or Strong, he's like, yeah, I wasn't really the best friend character. Even though he turns into that, he's like, I was just at the school, and they just put me in the cafeteria. And those were my scenes at that point. I didn't know I was supposed to be the best friend. They were, like, kind of like, doing try out with other characters. And then I landed it. The girl that plays to Panga, she was just like, I wasn't even in the show until the fourth episode, and they didn't even know what to do with me. And I wasn't even a regular until season three. So it's like, we have to remember that with this show. Like, they don't know what the fuck they're doing. This is going to be a completely different show in a couple of seasons, and I'm very much we know what the show actually is.
James: It's going to be interesting to compare the end of season three, for example, to the end of season one, and just how far we've grown, um, as a show and as viewers of the show, because there's a lot in these shows. And, uh, yeah, I'm excited to see where it goes. Recommendation time, everybody. I will go first. I have got a couple of recommendations for us. Um, there's a brand new video game that just came out, uh, that a lot of people may not have heard about. Um, I was actually probably, like, the first or second person to ever hear about it. And it's really cool that I get to share with you guys today. Um, it's called, like, Fortnite or something. I don't really know. It's too new. I think they might change that name. But check, um, it out. It's a free to play game. It's available on just about everything. And, uh, I feel like a little boy again, because I am playing against nine year old children mostly. But it is probably the best gaming experience I've had in a very long time. Um, so everybody go check that out. It's free to play. It's easy. You'll enjoy it. It's fun. It's beautiful. You can be Indiana Jones. I mean, come on. It's the best. Um, I would also like to revisit a previous, uh, recommendation. Uh, early on in the show, actually, Mallory mentioned the Formula One and recommending it. Um, we're in round nine. I want to say of the 22 round season for 2022, it is arguably the best season of Formula One that I've watched. Granted, I've only seen three, but, um, I think that makes me an expert. And it's just so cool. The new regulations. I won't go into too much more, but I would like to recommend, if anybody has been considering getting into Formula One, but they just don't know where to start or they're intimidated by it. Um, we have, uh, an incredible podcast to listen to called Shiftf One. Uh, you can go to their website, shiftfone. Cool. I promise you, that is a real website. They have a wonderful episode at the beginning of every season called their Preseason Primer, where they tell you everything you need to know about the sport. The drivers, the teams, rules, regulations, everything. And then each week they do a race recap as well as a preview of the next race. It's an incredible way to get into the show. And they're also just really entertaining people. They know a lot about the sport, but they also break it down in a way that is very accessible and approachable for everybody. Um, even if you've been watching the sport for a long time, or if you're absolutely a beginner and have nothing, no context, you'll still find some enjoyment of the show. So shiftf one and shout out to.
Mallory: My friend Sarah who recommended shift f one to us.
James: Hey, Sarah.
Mallory: Yeah. Thank you, Sarah. Um, I'm going to recommend an instagram account called Bodega Cats of Instagram. Has anyone heard of this? Oh, yeah. Okay, so we didn't talk about New York City in this episode. So I've got to bring it, I've got to roll it in here. So throughout New York City, there are corner stores. The corner stores in New York City are known as bodegas. That's what they're called. Um, a lot of them have resident cats that just live there. So there's an Instagram account called Bodega Cats of Instagram, M, and it's photos of cats amongst the shelves of all these Bodegas, lounging on soda bottles, sleeping in like, a cup of Noodles box, just living amongst, like, the product. It's adorable.
Cody: You'll love it. Yeah, that's like people of New York.
Mallory: But the cass of Bodegas.
Stella: Yeah, it's great. Okay, i, um, am m going to recommend the HBO max show The Staircase.
James: Yes.
Stella: Um, I am only maybe halfway through at this point, but, um, it's been very enjoyable so far. Um, I don't know, it's interesting, I think, either way. But I definitely am a true crime fan and know a bit about the case.
Cody: When I get into what the case is.
Stella: Yeah, I'll try and break it down. Not in too much detail because it's a long story, but basically, um, 2001.
Cody: Um, before or after 911?
James: After.
Stella: It was December of 2001. So a woman in North Carolina is found at, ah, the bottom of a staircase, dead, losses of blood, tons and tons of blood. Um, her husband calls Nine One and he is then later accused of murdering her. Um, and it was just a really long case that was kind of drawn out. It was popular because it was so bizarre. And he was also kind of like a public figure.
Mallory: Like he was trying to an author.
Stella: Yeah, novelist. And he was also running for city council. Um, all these things come out about his sexuality. And he had taken out a life insurance policy on his wife and uh, not his ex wife, but another woman was also found at the bottom of the staircase that he knew. And all these things, um, it's really just interesting. And um, the series, um, has Colin Firth as the main guy. Michael Peterson. Yes. And Tony Colette as the wife.
James: Oh, wow.
Stella: Yeah, she's great. Um, and it's good. I mean, it's heavy. The episodes feel like pretty long at times. So, um, I'm making my way through it slowly, but it's really good. And there's also a documentary.
Mallory: I actually thought that's what you're initially going to recommend.
James: Netflix, I think. Yeah.
Stella: Ah, a while ago. There's also lots of different podcast episodes about it. Um, so it's an interesting case to just learn about in general. And then if you want to get a little bit more into it, check out the show.
James: Cool. I forgot that came out because we watched the Netflix docu series that came out on that and it's such an interesting case. I'd love to watch that show and see is it dramatized or are they.
Stella: Still like I was just talking to Cody about this the other night.
Mallory: Because.
Stella: It'S hard to tell.
James: Sure.
Stella: Because there's so much of it that is I know is real. And then there are pieces where I don't know like how much there that's cool.
James: Yes.
Mallory: I don't know.
Cody: Okay, uh, I got two M, maybe they're both niche. Probably the first one is more than the other new, uh, album by, uh, Singapore, uh, grindcore band, Worm. Uh, Rot called his um, first record in like six years and it's probably the best and most adventurous, while simultaneously being the most accessible. Uh, the earlier stuff is a lot more just like classic grindcore, uh, with power, violence, heavy stuff like Napholm Death, but now their influences are wider. Lots, uh, of death and black metal, even thrash, like screamo stuff too. It's really incredible. And uh, even though it sounds like a pretty different aesthetics, they really do a great job of making it all sound just as one band. And it all makes sense. So if you're into heavier stuff, it's, uh, an extremely wild time. Also, the production is phenomenal on it. The earlier stuff, it sounds a lot more lo fike for a purpose. Just to make it sound like a wall of sound and super chaotic. But this feels very textured and warm and heavy and it's very cool. Also very cool seeing bands from Singapore this kind of music. Because usually you associate this genre kind of stuff with SoCal or yeah, just like white people. Uh, so check out Worm Rod. Also, the album cover is really cool. Uh, it's like a painting of someone's head, like, popping out of the water. It's very spooky. I think it's pretty cool. Uh, another one is uh, just in general, the movies of Kelly Reichard. I've mentioned her frequently because she collaborates a lot with Michelle Williams. Uh, I had recently rewatched a few of her movies over the past several weeks and she's just amazing. I had rewatched First Cow, which was one of my favorite movies of 2019. And her other one makes Cut Off that has Michelle Williams and that's about a wagon train getting lost in the Willamette Valley. Um, I really liken her style to like Brosan and Tarkowski and Ozu. And that her films are very deliberately paced and slow and meditative. And there's just like something so unique about that aesthetic because I think a lot of people will use slow as a negative description instead of really it's a descriptor. And I think a really great way to like if you are trying to challenge yourself and watch slower things and it's getting kind of hard think of it. And the way I think of it is someone uh, is trying to do as much as they possibly can, uh, with as less as possible. So with Kelly Reichard, she loves minimal dialogue. The camera doesn't move a lot and it's very long takes. And the amount of emotion that she's able to convey with these still shots is just mind blowing stuff that someone like Spielberg would do, where it would be this very stylized editing and the cameras forcing you with the music and everything to feel emotions. She uh, is allowing you to capture those emotions, uh, yourself as an audience. Let uh, it happen. And also just slow movies rule. Like let it wash over you. It's cool. Nothing has to happen for you to think. Thinking for yourself is better. And she does a great job of doing that.
James: Yeah. I love Meek's cutoff. Mal made me watch that a little while back because I had never seen it before. I didn't know what it was. And of course, with us being here in Portland, Oregon, that's basically our backyard. Um, and that movie is gorgeous. It is so beautiful. I love the long shots of nothing happening but the landscape. Um, and everybody knows the story of the Oregon Trail, but uh, the Meeks Cut Off story, or um uh the uh, donner Caravan, um, under oh shit. Not under the banner of heaven. Um, oh shit. I'll think about it. But the stories, uh, like hearing firsthand stories about what it was like to actually make that crossing and leave everything behind and try to come to a place you've never seen before, you don't even know exists, and you're just putting all of your faith in somebody who tells you you can get there. Yeah. Um, it's really spooky in a way that uh, even a horror movie couldn't unsettle you the way that Meeks, uh, crossing does.
Cody: Also, her aesthetic is so good for a story. Like that where you're watching people survive and having a camera to sit there and stare at people that are just like quietly deteriorating is such a unique way of doing that instead of just hearing people just like feel tortured the entire time. Also, a lot of her movies, like just being from the Pacific Northwest, most if not all of her movies take place in Oregon which is really cool except for certain women. I think that mostly takes place in Montana. But it's really cool seeing, uh, our place where we live is being represented so well. And First Cow also takes place in Oregon but from like a hundred years ago and so it's like the movie is really beautiful.
James: Check it out. I just remember the thing that I was thinking of. It's called the indifferent stars above. William Morrow. It is basically first hand accounts of people who are in a donner party. The people who got stuck up in Truckee Lake and eventually had to resort to cannibalism to survive. Um, that book is one of the best books I've ever read in my entire life. It is so incredible. Um, cool. Well, I think that means we are done this week, so you know what?
Stella: Can I read the for next week?
Mallory: For the episode?
Stella: Sure, do it. Okay, so next week or next episode? The Episode season One episode Ten modern Romance dawson arranges a double date with Jen and her new boyfriend. An extra credit assignment brings PC and Joey together. What's going to happen?
James: Goodie, goodie.
Mallory: Who's Jen's new boyfriend?
Cody: Yes.
James: I can't wait. I really want to watch this episode. All right, well, thank you all so much for listening. Um, if you've enjoyed the episode, please subscribe to our show. I bet you already are, but if you aren't, please do it. Join along with us as we continue to set sail week to week through the tumultuous waters of Dawson's Creek. One episode at a time. If you want more Freaks content, please go ahead and visit our website, freaksandcreeks.com or you can find us on Instagram at freaksandcreekspod or you know what, why don't you go ahead and be the first people to write us an email. I'm tired of seeing the spam that we get. I want you to email us. I don't care if it just says, hey, send us an email please. The email is show@freaksandcreeks.com. And until next time, bye bye.
Cody: Bye.
James: Bye. Oh, and I'm so sorry I forgot. Um, one last recommendation. There's a band called King Gizzard and the Lizard Wizard I think you guys will love it.
Mallory: Go check it out.