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Deep conversations with people who've had exceptional careers to inspire you to have your own exceptional career.
00:00:00:02 - 00:00:22:04
Unknown
There are cases where every manager and every employee lies. Yes, I lie, I hate it, I hate it when I do it, and I don't think it's avoidable. This is an Evans. He's a former Amazon vice president who helped build Prime Video and Twitch, and he led tech organizations of over 800 people. He retired with enough money that he no longer has a reason to spend anything.
00:00:22:04 - 00:00:42:03
Unknown
I asked him why working hard never gets people promoted on its own. Most people, in fact, their basic approach to work is work hard and hope to be noticed. If I could rip out this idea of my work will speak for itself. We covered how to spot manipulation before it cost you. There's a lot of nasty things you can do.
00:00:42:04 - 00:01:07:05
Unknown
What to do when your manager is the problem? Well, you can suffer or leave, so pick one and get started. And the exact words to use when you ask for more money. Only 30% of people ask for raises, 70% don't. But of the 30% who do, 70% of them get something. Let's get into it. Ethan, thanks for coming back and having a conversation with us.
00:01:07:12 - 00:01:35:02
Unknown
It's my pleasure. I love to talk to you, and I find your perspective interesting and very direct, which I like. You've stated that it's in your best interest to get good at politics, corporate politics, but I think the challenge is that there are essentially no resources out there. So can you give us a corporate politics 101, maybe for software developers, maybe for anybody that's working within corporate, like, what does corporate politics mean?
00:01:35:02 - 00:01:57:17
Unknown
And can you give us the the 1 to 3 things that you should know about corporate politics so that you stand a chance of playing that game in the right way? The first thing I would say is most software developers react negatively to the word politics. And I get that and I would like to soften that for them and say, hey, politics doesn't have to be nasty or dirty.
00:01:57:17 - 00:02:25:15
Unknown
It's just a word for human interaction. It's a word for relationships and negotiation. And it can be that some people conduct that in a dirty or unethical way. But you don't have to do that to still have a better career for yourself and to be armed and defend yourself. So when I think of politics, I think of that as how do businesses and people within businesses reconcile different goals and limited resources?
00:02:25:15 - 00:02:39:04
Unknown
So I have a goal to get my product out. You have a goal to get your product out, but we have dependencies together or we step on each other and you want to do yours first and be on your schedule. And I want to do mine first and be on my schedule. Well, how are we going to resolve all of that?
00:02:39:04 - 00:03:04:05
Unknown
That process, which can get nasty but doesn't have to, is the expression of politics. And the same thing is true when we talk about engineers in their careers. So if we think about several engineers who all want to grow, well, somebody probably gets the most choice project and somebody may get the first chance to step up or the chance to present to the CEO or to go on a key business trip.
00:03:04:05 - 00:03:25:09
Unknown
Some of that again, gets called politics. And it can be it can be that I, as the manager, am choosing a favorite or focusing on someone. But it also can be that the engineer who isn't thinking about this. I think can be limiting themselves. I say, and I bet you see this, you may have your own words for it.
00:03:25:10 - 00:03:52:15
Unknown
I say most engineers, most people. In fact, their basic approach to work is work hard and hope to be noticed. And I noticed you just published an article. I saw it at least this morning that said, your hard work is what makes you the same as everyone else and average. And that's why I work hard and hope to be noticed isn't a very good strategy, because probably you're at a place where lots of people work hard and are hoping to be noticed to go on.
00:03:52:15 - 00:04:15:12
Unknown
You asked for like the top 1 to 3 things on politics. The top one thing is get over your issue that I don't need to do, that. I shouldn't have to care about that. I hate the word should. You may have heard this from me before. Should is this word that disempower us. Because suddenly I'm waiting for what should happen, or someone else should do as opposed to what I need to do.
00:04:15:12 - 00:04:41:14
Unknown
So for politics, the first thing is be aware relationship matters and accept that except that you work with other humans, those humans are influenced by how easy the working relationship is with you, maybe how much they enjoy your company. It's all those things. So the first rule is accept politics are real. The second rule, I think, is be reasonable, be.
00:04:41:14 - 00:05:02:18
Unknown
I love the word reasonable. One of my one of the worst things I can say about someone is that person is unreasonable. It's very difficult for me, and unreasonable in my case. Not only often means illogical, which is maybe how a classic engineer would take it. That bugs me, drives me crazy. But also in transient no, you know, stuck on a viewpoint close minded.
00:05:02:19 - 00:05:30:16
Unknown
Those also strike me as unreasonable. But I would say realize that relationship, both consciously and subconsciously, colors taints influences how you're treated. And so by just being nice, many engineers get into the idea. They corner themselves in the idea that because I'm good and I'm right, I can be frosty, I can be thorny, I can be difficult. I can be a bit of a prima donna.
00:05:30:17 - 00:05:49:01
Unknown
It's true. You can. But I will never rush to promote you. If you're good enough, I may keep you. I may tolerate you. I may manage you. But that's never someone I'm going to be looking to move up. If I move you up, it's against my will. It's like, oh, I have to. For some reason, that's a really high bar as opposed to I want to.
00:05:49:02 - 00:06:13:20
Unknown
So my thing for someone would be, why put yourself in a situation where your manager is thinking, I'm only moving Steve up if I have no other choice? That's a terrible. But I think a lot of engineers put themselves in that terrible position out of like a pride that their work should be so good, they shouldn't have to lower themselves to being friendly or nice about how they deliver bad news.
00:06:13:20 - 00:06:42:11
Unknown
So the last part you said three the last thing I would say is this is a learnable set of skills. The great thing is what's called emotional intelligence or this is all stuff. You can choose to be different. And actually, while it may take a couple of years, it's much faster than like a principal level track. In technical knowledge, you can change your demeanor and learn a few new tricks pretty quickly and really turn around your experience.
00:06:42:12 - 00:07:05:17
Unknown
My definition of politics is similar to yours. It's around power dynamics. So basically, yes, there's a lot of people need to all work together. There's some resources, but I think we also need to layer in hierarchy. Yep. There's a reporting structure sort of like chain of command that's going on. And I think your point about, hey, politics exists, right?
00:07:05:18 - 00:07:39:11
Unknown
It's your choice as to whether you want to engage with it or not. If your default is to disengage, you will lose this game by default. Yeah. You're not getting on the field, right. You're forfeiting. Yeah. So basically there's this oh, I've detected politics. There might be maybe, you know, an ethical undertone to what's going on. And the moment you disengage, the people that are maybe playing bad politics or the people that are doing some things that you don't particularly like, they you're giving them ammunition to step all over you.
00:07:39:11 - 00:08:03:05
Unknown
And so that, I think, further reinforces this idea that you don't want to play this game of politics. And so it almost like allows them to and this is a, I think a an ethic like turtle up a little bit and just be like okay you guys go do the politics thing over there. I'm going to go write some code or I'm going to go and work on some tickets or I'm going to work on this project.
00:08:03:05 - 00:08:24:10
Unknown
I believe that's very great what you said. Like, you have to understand that this game is going to be played with or without you. Yeah. And, you know, we call it a game even that makes it hard. It's just the life of human relationships. Quick word from today's sponsor linear. Linear has been a sponsor for almost a year now, and in that time, a lot has changed in how teams build software.
00:08:24:12 - 00:08:42:19
Unknown
Coding agents like Cloud Code blew up, and they're being used to write more and more code. Writing code got fast, but reviewing it didn't. A lot of the speed that you get out of agents just gets swallowed back up in review. Now, I spent 18 years as an engineer at Amazon, a lot of it reviewing other people's code, so I know the feeling.
00:08:42:22 - 00:09:03:16
Unknown
You get a huge pull request with changes in some random order. The context is scattered across other tools, and at some point you're either grinding through it or rubber stamping it. What people forget is that code review is how accountability spreads across the team. When you approve a PR, you're putting your name next to it. You own that change now too.
00:09:03:19 - 00:09:26:03
Unknown
That's the part that only a person can do. Deciding whether the change fits the system and solves the problem the customer actually had. So a rubber stamp just puts your name on code that you didn't read. That's what this is for. It's a code review inside of linear right next to the issue that started the work. It opens up instantly and breaks a giant PR into readable chapters.
00:09:26:06 - 00:09:48:14
Unknown
The why sits next to the code so you can decide whether it solves the problem. Instead of hunting through tabs to remember what the problem was, linear used to track the work. Now it reviews it to check out diffs at linear. The thing I would say is I try and differentiate strongly between influence and manipulation. Politics can includes both.
00:09:48:15 - 00:10:10:13
Unknown
It's the big umbrella of political situations. Influence I define as I am trying to persuade you of something ultimately for your good. I'm trying to convince you of a better technical solution, a cheaper implementation, a new architecture, whatever it is. But I'm doing it not only because I believe it, but because I believe it will actually solve a problem and help you.
00:10:10:14 - 00:10:34:14
Unknown
Manipulation is me trying to convince you of something primarily for my good. So that's often seen in some cases as sales. I'm trying to get you to pay for the most expensive option. I'm trying to get you to enjoy working on the maintenance work I know you don't like. So I'm telling you this story about how it's important or whatever I'm doing.
00:10:34:14 - 00:10:58:16
Unknown
I'm trying to engineer your behavior around my good and benefit. Now, there's more depth than just motive, but I like to look first at that motive of what is the why. And so what I tell people don't like politics. I say, look, there are people who will try to manipulate you. You don't have to engage in manipulation, but get good at distinguishing.
00:10:58:16 - 00:11:22:06
Unknown
Is this person trying to tell me something because they believe it, or are they trying to tell me something because it's going to help them? And second, what am I going to choose to do? Because I have a choice? If you are influential enough, you can stand up to the manipulators as well as actually help people. So when I speak, I think a lot about how can I be influential.
00:11:22:12 - 00:11:42:24
Unknown
I try to avoid thinking about, oh, how could I manipulate Steve into doing something for me? And I try and catch myself. It is normal. It's normal to think, what's the shortcut? How do I just get Steve to do what I need? And if I can get away from that, that's great. When I try and help people feel better about what you call playing the game.
00:11:42:24 - 00:12:09:17
Unknown
And I would say engaging in relationships, I would say, you know, you can do this. Honestly, you do have to protect yourself from the occasional sharks. But I also find the sharks aren't as numerous as we conceive. The last thing I would say is, sometimes when you feel like you lost, it may not be that anyone did anything manipulative or unethical, they were just very influential.
00:12:09:17 - 00:12:36:19
Unknown
They were very good at making their case, and without them doing anything they shouldn't. They just made a really good case and you didn't. So you can lose even on a totally ethical playground. Help me understand the distinction between influential and being manipulative. So being manipulative is doing a thing because it would benefit you, and then being influential is doing a thing because it would benefit the company or the team.
00:12:36:20 - 00:13:03:22
Unknown
Yes, there's an intersection right between there's an overlap. There's an overlap where I can get a benefit for sure. So let's say you're my manager. Something I tell people a lot is let's make a deal. You need a lot of extra work on a project. I want to move up. I can make a deal with you, which is very open and mutually beneficial, that says, look, I'm going to cancel my vacation and sacrifice some extra time to deliver this thing that we're behind on.
00:13:03:22 - 00:13:30:20
Unknown
In return, I would like your assurance that if I do that well, you will fight extra hard in the calibration to make sure I'm acknowledged and try and make a deal. That's not manipulative. That's good for you. You get the work done, it's good for me. And the trade off is I'm giving up my vacation. And you're bracing for the awkward conversation where someone from another team says, well, why is Ethan really top tier?
00:13:30:22 - 00:13:55:12
Unknown
And you're going to jump in and say he's absolutely top tier, blah, blah, blah, as opposed to say, well, you might have a point. We'll rate him something else that's influential, manipulative. There are many ways to be manipulative. One of them, though, using the same thing, is I can make an unethical deal with you and say, look, I know that you manager would like to grow your team because you need more resources.
00:13:55:12 - 00:14:15:12
Unknown
I'm a principal engineer. I'll write up a story about how there's, you know, this project is just so much work. We need more headcount. And of course, I have the skills to make it sound very complicated. That would be one way to do it. There's many ways of being manipulative. Another way to be manipulative is to say, well, you should be rating me top tier because I know it's me and Fred.
00:14:15:12 - 00:14:35:00
Unknown
And let me show you Fred's bug list. Or let me show you this code review of where Fred brought down the service. There's a lot of nasty things you can do. How do you know whether some of these influencing you versus somebody being manipulative, right. Because I think you're framing it as like, there's this deal that's going on.
00:14:35:00 - 00:14:54:24
Unknown
We can scratch each other's backs collectively, but I think that there's a set of decisions that are happening maybe at a level above me, if I'm an icy and I get the sense that it's much more being much more manipulative, it looks like they're playing pool, but the pool table is kind of slanted and, you know, towards a particular pocket.
00:14:55:00 - 00:15:25:12
Unknown
You don't know what happened in that room when they made a decision. And that sort of gives you a sour taste in your mouth. It just looks like Ethan's getting what he wants. How do we navigate whether you're being influenced or whether you're being manipulated? Yeah. So one of the things is actually the amount of transparency. Are the decisions happening in the open, is everything being discussed in the open, or are things changing behind closed doors where I talk to you and you say, okay, we're going to do this.
00:15:25:12 - 00:15:43:23
Unknown
And then a little bit of time passes and I find out you didn't do that. When I come back to you, you say, oh, well, I talked to Fred and you know, we had to change. So one thing is the amount of transparency. But I would say in general, one of the drawbacks of trying to be ethical is it leaves you exposed to losing the first round.
00:15:43:23 - 00:16:16:02
Unknown
What I mean by that is we all know the phrase fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. I think with politics, if you choose to take an ethical, trusting approach, you may get burned occasionally, but then that's where you open your eyes and say, okay, I was working with this person. What? I understood them to be telling me about the benefits of this solution, or the necessity of this schedule or whatever, didn't turn out to be true, don't seem to have been true.
00:16:16:03 - 00:16:35:18
Unknown
Maybe that was an honest mistake, but this time I'm going to be skeptical. And then if I see it again, I see it again. You know, there's another saying I love sayings. Of course. They say nice guys finish last. I think you can finish last the first time. It's then a question of are you willing to be a student of okay, who is on my side and who isn't?
00:16:35:19 - 00:16:58:04
Unknown
When I say on my side, who seems to be mostly ethical and high character and who isn't? I was just talking about a former manager of mine with a peer of mine, and my peer really didn't care for him, and I really had a great relationship with him. And the debate was, this is at Amazon. He was a VP.
00:16:58:07 - 00:17:20:01
Unknown
My peer and I at that time were directors. Amazon, as you know. Well, I hope you know, once leaders still to do some work themselves not to only manage but deliver something. My peer and I had noticed that this VP didn't seem to own anything, and he was from outside Amazon and we went and ask him and me being very direct, I said to him, we were talking about our goals for the year.
00:17:20:01 - 00:17:34:07
Unknown
I said, for this year, what is your personal goal? What's a piece of work you're going to do? And he said, oh, I don't. Why would I do that? I manage, I'm not going to do that. Well, my peer was horrified by this. Just I was a little taken aback. Like, this doesn't sound very Amazonian, but I'm like, all right.
00:17:34:08 - 00:17:57:01
Unknown
My peer just could never respect the guy again at some level. But what was interesting is when I was discussing with my peer after that, years later, just recently, we agreed that this VP was very honest and trustworthy. He just had different values. And so the point is, I think we disagreed with his approach and his commitment and his style.
00:17:57:01 - 00:18:19:22
Unknown
But even my peer, who didn't like him, really didn't respect that and thought it was low value said. But he's an honest guy. He's respectable in the sense that he's earnest and won't. He'll he'll do what he says. It's just the problem is what he's saying he's going to do is something I don't like. So that's where I think you have to get to know the people a little bit.
00:18:19:23 - 00:18:44:14
Unknown
And again, that comes back to emotional intelligence relationship. The last way to defend yourself, which I love to tell people it might be one of those insider tricks. Talk to others. Right. Study a little bit. Usually you're not the first person to interact with them. I coach people if you're considering taking a job, try and find someone at that who's either worked for that boss or worked at that company and get some data.
00:18:44:16 - 00:19:03:02
Unknown
I was just speaking to someone who was interviewing and got themselves to an interview, like a second stage, but then they checked references. They found two people who knew that boss, and as far as they could tell, those two people didn't know each other. They had worked for the boss at different times, and both of them said, oh, I don't know if I'd do that.
00:19:03:03 - 00:19:28:01
Unknown
And it was it was their very clear signal to back away. That's an engineer being emotionally intelligent. Is it political to check references on your boss? Well, but some people would say, like, why do I have to play that game? Shouldn't bosses be good? Shouldn't the should word right? Shouldn't managers make sure bosses are good companies? Shouldn't they train or that's playing politics but to your advantage and in a very ethical way.
00:19:28:03 - 00:19:49:03
Unknown
Yeah, lots of things to unpack there. One thing that I noticed is managers can be high performing and low performing as well, not just ICS. And I think as an IC, you think of managers as the adults in the room, like the parents like they assign you stuff, they say what you should do, what you shouldn't do, but you can have a shit manager, right?
00:19:49:05 - 00:20:10:24
Unknown
It's just not skill. Doesn't know how to grow their people, doesn't know anything about the domain or the projects that are there. And you can have a wonderful manager as well. And so I think a really big mistake is just thinking, oh, they are a manager, they're an adult. They must know what's going on. I know plenty of adults that make poor choices, but the idea that an adult can make a set of poor choices.
00:20:10:24 - 00:20:33:09
Unknown
When I was younger, it didn't make sense in my worldview. What you said about losing the battle, or at least like taking people on their word and being trusting. And for the first time you may lose. I give a very similar set of advice. I tell people good politics is called influence and integrity. Right? Right. That's very similar.
00:20:33:10 - 00:20:57:22
Unknown
Bad politics is all this toxic behavior. There's a lot of it backstabbing, lying, saying one thing, doing another thing, all of that other stuff. I tell people, yes, you can. You can play good politics and win. You may lose the battle, which is the first time that you trust them. But ultimately, toxic bad politics is going to catch up to people and they are going to lose the war.
00:20:58:02 - 00:21:20:10
Unknown
Your job is to stick around long enough for that house of cards to crumble. I love that advice, which is basically we're going to extend some trust. You know, when we detect some politics, we'll take them people at their word. But we should really notice their actions. And if their actions line up with their words, then you can trust them a little bit more the next time.
00:21:20:10 - 00:21:40:08
Unknown
If it doesn't, then we proceed with caution, and at some point you may need to disassociate yourself from people, which maybe you do openly. You know, that could mean quitting or leaving or saying, I'm not going to work with you. You may also need to. Depending on your environment, a highly political environment, you may need to disassociate yourself with someone very silently.
00:21:40:09 - 00:22:01:23
Unknown
Like, never tell them that you've decided they're not trustworthy, that that may not be in your best interest. I loved your point about adults. The image that someone applies with manager and employee is a parental one, right? My job is to set up the structure and organize the work. And you know, your job is to be the dutiful child and do your homework and keep your room clean.
00:22:01:23 - 00:22:23:19
Unknown
But this is why the betrayal. This is why so many people are so angry at bad managers, because it's like having an abusive parent in a way. And as you said, there are many ways managers can be bad. I like to differentiate. They're both real managers who have skill problems. They have a competence gap and managers who have an ethics gap.
00:22:23:19 - 00:22:45:02
Unknown
And you can run into one or both or even both mixed together. The thing I point out is very few people are trained as managers. They get moved into that position. They may have even ambitiously sorted, but seeking management and getting education for management are very different. And yes, you get a lot of managers who are the just lack skills.
00:22:45:02 - 00:23:09:11
Unknown
You also get some managers for sure that are exploitative. They've gotten where they've gotten by driving hard. They see now, you know, they take the human resources thing where people are called resources. They take it very literally, like, oh, Steve, you're my resource. You know, I own your life. And here's what I, I'm going to use your life for.
00:23:09:13 - 00:23:41:10
Unknown
Your interest in that is really not involved. I'm assigning you, you know, and it's very it's terrible in my opinion, but it's real. How do you know whether you're in a toxic situation with maybe a management chain that is manipulative and unethical? So a client of mine in the community was he was in a situation where his boss in his skip level, they were both fired at the same time, but before they were fired, put him on a pip and then managed him out of the company.
00:23:41:11 - 00:24:13:11
Unknown
Was there anything that he could have seen earlier? Have you seen situations where, like entire management chains or like let go? I have and I think there's a reason for that. I call it stacked floors. So this is actually something I've seen, and it's also something I've done accidentally that I'll explain. Stacked floors is if I have a floor or a blind spot, whether it's more willful and I support politics or more I'm ignorant or have a bad behavior, I'm unlikely to see that as a fault in a manager working for me.
00:24:13:11 - 00:24:34:00
Unknown
And you actually were around to know some of the people in a management chain I created. It came to maturity after you and I had gone different ways in Amazon. But I think you may know, even from our time working together, I can be more of a cowboy. I'm more about speed and bias for action than I am about perfection.
00:24:34:02 - 00:25:02:22
Unknown
You know, there's all the good ways I can frame it of move fast and break things or fail forward. But there's also just carelessness, and I lean fast enough on speed. I can be reckless. Why? It acquired managers under me who were very goal driven and we kind of shared this. The problem that emerged is peer organizations were experiencing this and they were either looking and saying, well, there's this manager and then there's Ethan's direct report, and then there's Ethan, and they're all the same.
00:25:02:23 - 00:25:26:03
Unknown
Or they were coming to me and they were saying, you know, your manager is a wrecking ball. And I was thinking, I love that manager. They get things done. That's the stacked floors. And it was really my blind spot to not realize that by hiring little mini me's, you know, straight out of Austin Powers, there were no checks and balances.
00:25:26:03 - 00:25:53:04
Unknown
And I think this is pretty common, where even good managers tend to hire themselves because we all sort of know the theory that it's good to have conflicting opinions and different styles. The problem is, having conflicting opinions is really painful, and it makes your staff meetings really irritating and you're always having to manage through like, I know this person is good, but they're driving me nuts because they want to be very detailed and they want to slow down and I want to speed up.
00:25:53:04 - 00:26:17:13
Unknown
So there's this huge pressure to clone yourself. So going back to your person, one thing to look at is, is the skip. Just like your manager, as best you can see. The second thing is, is what are they rewarding? What in this organization, what's being rewarded is other toxic behavior or being a sycophant? Is that what's being rewarded or am I the outlier?
00:26:17:13 - 00:26:39:09
Unknown
Is like everyone else, doing good and somehow I'm irritating this management chain. That's one thing I look for. I think the reality is you do have to manage your shop. You know, people understand job shopping, they understand projects. I'm not sure everyone's accepted that you have to shop for a manager and that that really matters. Yeah, it absolutely does.
00:26:39:09 - 00:27:03:12
Unknown
I am 100% convinced that the relationship with your manager is the most important one at work, and it can lead to either a virtuous or a vicious cycle. If your manager sucks or you have a bad relationship with them, they don't give you the best work. You don't try as hard as you should. Performance problems compound. You dread going into the office to talk to your manager, and it just spirals out of control.
00:27:03:14 - 00:27:27:20
Unknown
When you have a great manager, you're aligned. They love you, you love them, they give you good work, you do your best job right. And it's a and this, this virtuous cycle. I love your point about the amplification of particular traits within the management chain. I think you can go both ways. If you're if you've got a wonderful trait that you've hired for that can amplify and help out the entire organization.
00:27:27:20 - 00:27:48:20
Unknown
If there is a a flaw or a poor character trait, it can get amplified within a blind spot. I like to think of it. Yeah, you magnify the blind spot, right? You magnify the blind spot and the damage compounds because you would hope that the manager, the higher level manager, the director of the VP is a check and balance.
00:27:48:20 - 00:28:14:09
Unknown
Because if they don't align, then maybe I can see that person's weakness. And if you highlight to me and say, oh, hey, Ethan's about to ram something out that isn't really ready, and I'm this, you know, sort of better leader with a different viewpoint, not Ethan, but somebody else I can say. Yeah, I know, you know, Ethan likes to move fast, I hear you, I'll talk to him about it or I'll impose some constraints or, you know, you can dampen those trades.
00:28:14:10 - 00:28:31:07
Unknown
Another thing I think is worth noting. All managers are human. We tend to forget this. We we want them to be perfect because they have so much impact on us. So we get really hurt when they're not perfect. One of the things is, though, they're not going to be perfect. Another thing I point out about managers I'm here for sure.
00:28:31:07 - 00:28:59:02
Unknown
Your audience can either love this or hate this. I'm here to advocate for giving managers a break. Of course he is. Yeah, right. Of course I am. Managers or human managers get tired. They have bad days. Managers have their own goals. They're trying to grow their career too. So as much as your focus on your life and your career and your comp and your enjoyment of your work and all of these things they are to, and you want them to care as much about you as they care about themselves.
00:28:59:02 - 00:29:23:19
Unknown
That's unreasonable. That's unrealistic. Even the ones who are very good in understanding that their success comes from your work. They still have many people, and they can't spend all their time with you and or thinking about you. Even good managers are sometimes going to cause collateral damage. From your perspective, I think it's a balance. Like this guy I talked about that I thought was great, I had a great relationship with.
00:29:23:20 - 00:29:41:10
Unknown
Still, his answer that he was not going to do any work himself. His only job was to delegate to us or that that was his full job. You know, he wouldn't have said, I don't do any work myself. He just said, I work all the time managing you. But from an Amazon perspective, that still felt like missing something for me, that was no big deal.
00:29:41:11 - 00:30:05:03
Unknown
Like, okay, you have a big enough package of bonuses. I'm good for my peer. That was really like I struggle to respect that. Getting back to my client where she had this, I didn't answer directly enough, but what he can do, all right, this management chain that had this amplified blind spot and sort of took him out with, you know, sort of like knocked him out first and then they got knocked out afterwards.
00:30:05:04 - 00:30:27:18
Unknown
Yes. You should have your resume ready to go. Yes, you should be able to move teams and all of that stuff. But how do you know whether to push or pivot? So I've come down more and more over time to the idea of pivot, because the manager is so critical. If the manager relationship isn't working for you and you can't quickly fix it, you may want to pivot.
00:30:27:18 - 00:30:51:02
Unknown
I know one of the things you want to talk about is managing up, and there are a set of things you can do to try and fix a management relationship to some degree, to create a collaborative relationship even with someone who isn't your style or may even be somewhat unethical. You can get partway there and I can talk about that, but I think I again go with this.
00:30:51:02 - 00:31:12:05
Unknown
I think in terms of time or projects, push for three months, push for six tops, try to give a signal that something is working. Try to give a signal. And that's the fool me once I will give you one shot. Maybe I'll even give you a second. But at that point, if it's not working. It's your life that's burning away.
00:31:12:06 - 00:31:36:00
Unknown
Get out. Because there is a manager that that will work great for. And everyone has their perfect manager. It's not the same person, but someone who's going to love what you do. Go find that person. I like the idea of an experiment. Yep. You come in and you will by default give extend some amount of trust and give it a shot and see if it works.
00:31:36:00 - 00:32:00:14
Unknown
And after that first project you're like, wow, that went terribly for. And then enumerate those reasons. I think reflection is really important and then give them a second shot. Hey, this went well. This did not go well. I'm going to be a little bit more skeptical here. But if it doesn't work out again, you know, the person that we're talking about here, I know for a fact he's technically really good.
00:32:00:16 - 00:32:23:13
Unknown
And I think the the floor is he stayed a little too long. He might have been made some promises about promotion, about scope that was there. And I think that's the difficult part. Yes, you should pivot and try to find another team. But maybe the reason to move to this team was this greenfield project that was going to allow him to get to staff engineer.
00:32:23:13 - 00:32:46:09
Unknown
He had this idea that he might be able to push through it and get at the other side, because there was still some manipulation that was going on. They needed him to do a bunch of stuff that he ended up doing, but ultimately did not reward him for that. I think that's a common story. I have clients as well in my community who tell me the same thing, which is they were working on good work.
00:32:46:09 - 00:33:15:20
Unknown
That was interesting work. They wanted to see the work delivered. They didn't want to see themselves as quitters, but that led them to an exposed position, and now they have bitterness about having put in the work. I do think one thing you can do is you can try to make a choice that says, I have awareness that's staying here may burn me, but I want to see this project through or that can insulate you somewhat where you're like, okay, well, I knew this was a price I might pay.
00:33:15:20 - 00:33:33:21
Unknown
I have had some success in my own life looking at a situation and saying, I see what's likely to come out of this, and I can still accept that. And it would have heard a lot more if I hadn't pre the outcome. The other thing I would say, though, about managing up is that is an art. It's we talked about politics.
00:33:33:21 - 00:33:58:21
Unknown
Maybe managing up is a special case systematized piece. Managing up involves first understanding that it's a totally legitimate skill. It's not manipulative necessarily. When I'm a manager, I actually want you to manage up to me in an ethical way. Meaning let's talk about each other's styles. Let's talk about how I like information. Let's talk about how you like to work.
00:33:58:22 - 00:34:16:00
Unknown
Try to find a middle ground that makes that so that I get the information I need, and you get the resources and freedom you want. How do we do that? And then second, let's talk about when things go bad. How do you like feedback? Let's talk about emergencies. You know, what are you willing to do if if I have a problem.
00:34:16:00 - 00:34:40:15
Unknown
If you have a problem, that's all part of managing up. And there's an art to it. There's an art, but also a process of understanding. Essentially, how do I make a manager's job easier, where easier doesn't only mean less work, it means also, it does mean less work for them or less hassle, but also therefore more streamlined for them to help me.
00:34:40:16 - 00:34:59:17
Unknown
How do I if I need resources or I need money? How do I give them a case that's easy? A lot of people like this analogy I describe for all boss employee relationships. As a manager, everyone who comes into your office is either bringing a bag of poop or taking one, right? And they're either setting it on your desk.
00:34:59:19 - 00:35:16:19
Unknown
Well, what's the source, by the way? Well, yeah, but they're either bringing you a problem and saying, manager, I don't know what to do and I'm throwing up my hands. You solve it or they're coming in and saying, I have solved this and I'm letting you know. Or what do you need me to solve? What can I take off your plate?
00:35:16:20 - 00:35:46:07
Unknown
What can I do better? For obvious reasons, managers appreciate the people who are taking problems away off their desk, not those that either by coming into their office or worse, by not coming in, are sort of dropping off problems. Yeah, even some managers that you don't match with stylistically, even some managers who aren't maybe the best humans on Earth still largely learn to appreciate those who are easing their lives, as opposed to those who are making their lives more difficult.
00:35:46:07 - 00:36:08:16
Unknown
And so this can be a spiral again, but try to be the one making things easier. And then if that still doesn't work out, there are just there are both rotten people and there are just people with no stylistic compatibility at all. And that's okay. Like it's okay, no stylistic compatibility. I think you and I have touched on the fact that I went and interviewed at space.
00:36:08:23 - 00:36:34:10
Unknown
I don't know if that's something, you know, but in the end, you know, Elon Musk and I were speaking and we realized we had differing views of a critical thing. I can't throw stones at the man's success, but I also know it wasn't a fit for me. And I'm okay with that and stylistic difference. Well, no promotion has ever gone through in the history of time where the manager was not supportive of that promotion.
00:36:34:11 - 00:36:51:19
Unknown
Yeah, maybe there's a skip level, but somebody in your management chain needs to stick their neck out and say, we should promote this person, right? There could be a project that you want to complete because you said you committed to it, because it's going to show that you're working at that next level, and it checks off all of the boxes.
00:36:51:19 - 00:37:15:10
Unknown
But ultimately, if your manager is not going to support you because of stylistic differences, because of incompetence, because they're manipulative, I think that's signal enough to pivot independent of how juicy that project is. I agree with you, partly because I think most engineers they can find juicy work anywhere. There's no shortage of hard problems. There's no shortage of technical fascination.
00:37:15:10 - 00:37:35:21
Unknown
I'm sure there's a few people who only want to work on this one thing that then becomes a choice. I so much want to work on cold fusion that I have to work under this bad lab manager, because there's only a very few cold fusion labs in the world. That might be true, but for most engineers, there's unlimited technical challenge.
00:37:35:22 - 00:37:54:22
Unknown
Go do it somewhere. You'll be appreciated. Where the styles match. I think a lot of us and I did this to. We fear how hard it is to move. Why? Because moving jobs is not our skill set, right? Our skill set is engineering or management or whatever we do. It's not job hunting and being unemployed sounds very bad and if you've been unemployed is very bad.
00:37:54:22 - 00:38:18:05
Unknown
And so we fear that. But we fear it too much because that's another learnable skill set. It's quote unquote just work, do the work, find the job. I think we're talking about this particular person. If you're really good at what you do, finding a job is just a matter of time. It's exactly what you're saying. There's this inertia, there's this fear of change that goes on.
00:38:18:06 - 00:38:38:21
Unknown
Do you have all of this, like self-worth associated with your with your work and your job? And if that goes away, you take a hit on that no matter what, no matter how much you think about it rationally and logically, it is super disruptive. There's a lot of paperwork involved too, like, you know, getting unemployment and you might have health insurance stuff as well.
00:38:38:22 - 00:38:57:04
Unknown
So it's not something people electrically do unless there's a good reason. But I do think that once you've run those experiments with your management chain and you know who they are. I think you should just trust that they are not going to change. No, they're very unlikely to change quickly enough. And why would you why should you be the experiment?
00:38:57:05 - 00:39:19:12
Unknown
People do change, but why would you wait around to see if it's going to happen now? Right. It's like a romantic relationship. It's like I can fix him. Yeah. It's not going to happen. It is. And that again, goes to the relationships and parenting and the, you know, often the choice is to get out. People get into this hope cycle.
00:39:19:12 - 00:39:39:00
Unknown
And in fact with abusive relationships. The other part of it is, well, if I just do this thing, you know, the abusive spouse or boyfriend or girlfriend or whatever is giving this whole list of things they want, and people get into the idea of, oh, if I just do this and then I just do this, suddenly this person is going to be a different character.
00:39:39:01 - 00:39:59:03
Unknown
That never happens or happens so rarely. So I agree with you change jobs and on the job changing, there's a lot of evidence that it is just work. In my business, I coach a lot of mid-level executives and I can tell you it's really funny. I talk to people who have jobs at an Amazon or a Google or an Apple, and they're all afraid to leave.
00:39:59:04 - 00:40:18:16
Unknown
They have been for a couple of years. And then I talk to the ones that got reorg out fired or whatever, and they've all found better jobs, almost 100%. And I would even say some of them, you know, of course I have opinions across my client base. All my clients are very smart, but some are more skilled than others.
00:40:18:16 - 00:40:47:15
Unknown
Just as I'm sure is true in your community, you may not share those opinions, but even some of my clients that I think are maybe not the top performers have found great jobs, and I see people who I think are stronger performers holding on to that position with dear life despite headwinds. It's highlighted to me how terrified we are as a group to switch jobs.
00:40:47:16 - 00:41:12:10
Unknown
Getting back to the subject of managing up a pattern that I've noticed quite a bit is you might start a new job, you might get moved to a new team, and you're filling out your manager. You had made the analogy of either leaving with a pile of crap, or bringing a pile of crap to your manager. One thing I've noticed is that people will go and they'll basically get into order taking mode, and so they'll be like, Ethan, what should I be working on?
00:41:12:10 - 00:41:30:11
Unknown
If I were to use the take a bag or leave a bag analogy, I feel like we're kind of bringing a bag when we're when we're in this sort of like order taking mode, like, hey, Ethan, tell me what I should be doing right now. It's very junior. If nothing else, it's putting the burden on me to figure out what you should be doing as opposed to.
00:41:30:12 - 00:41:57:12
Unknown
I think you obviously have seen this. It's more helpful if you come in and say, Ethan, I've surveyed my area or I know I've learned about our team's goals. I'm working on A and B status update quick. I see I could do CD or E, I think there's the most benefits to my favorite way to phrase that is would you like me to work on or is there something else you'd prefer?
00:41:57:12 - 00:42:24:16
Unknown
So I try and teach people, give a clear option that you're just going to go do, but but open the door if they because they can either say no D is more important, or they can say you didn't know about Q and actually what I need is Q but most managers are going to be that sounds great. And then the highest level of this helping your manager is where you're messaging them or stopping by and saying, hey, I noticed CD and needed to be done.
00:42:24:16 - 00:42:43:07
Unknown
I've handled them because I'm writing a book. It's called The Magic Loop. You've heard me talk about the magic loop. You know about it. That's the point where the magic comes in, where you, at least to me as a manager, you become magical because you're telling me about things I didn't even know needed to be done. And you're handling them well.
00:42:43:07 - 00:43:02:21
Unknown
That's where if I'm a good manager, I'm like, oh, wow, I have very few magic gnomes in my team. And this is one I've got a I've got to feed my magic gnome. And, you know, whatever the gnome needs, I don't know how the gnome, you know, I have to figure out like, what is it they like? And where is their mushroom that I can, you know, make them happy.
00:43:02:21 - 00:43:24:08
Unknown
Because right after you come and say that, the next person comes in and says, what should I be working on? And even worse. Oh, yeah, you know, whatever. It's Friday. I got blocked on Tuesday by, you know, team X, and I've been waiting for our one on one. So I could ask you, can you help with team X.
00:43:24:10 - 00:43:44:16
Unknown
And you know that's just one of those like, oh my God. You know, what have you done for three days. Is it Facebook or Instagram? Like what. Oh turns out both. Plus some TikTok. Yeah. You know, there's another client of mine, you know, this bias for action thing where you basically, hey, here's the thing that needs to be done.
00:43:44:17 - 00:44:01:10
Unknown
I've already done it. Don't worry about it. That being so magical, that's like, I think, the epitome of bias for action. I've been thinking about it a lot, and it's basically you're bringing a pile of crap to your manager when you ask for permission. When you ask for permission to do a thing, they're like, okay, wait. Hold on.
00:44:01:10 - 00:44:18:17
Unknown
What? Second, what are you asking for? Why does it need to be done? Why are you asking me for authorization? I don't even know whether I have. So it's this, like, big unbounded thing that's going on. So I had a client that came in and he was like, yeah, I want to work on something extra. He's working on some internal tool.
00:44:18:17 - 00:44:44:22
Unknown
He wanted to go and make an improvement on it. And so he went to his manager to ask him whether it was okay to do the improvement. I was like, how how long did it take you to do the improvement? He's like, oh, like half a day. And I'm like comparing contrast, like you going to your manager, which is what he did, and asking whether you can go and do this thing that's unequivocally positive for everybody involved or you just going and doing that thing and letting him know that you did it, which one makes you more valuable in his eyes?
00:44:44:23 - 00:45:06:09
Unknown
Because in the first one, he brought a small bag over to his manager, and the other one he was like, he solved the problem with his manager and even know existed, and then everybody's happy with him. I think this is trust and a relationship progression. Managers are very afraid. At least many managers are very afraid that someone's going to make them look bad or screw something up.
00:45:06:09 - 00:45:44:05
Unknown
And so you build a trust where I learned that your judgment is good. You talked about the Amazon principle that we both share and know of bias for action. The one that goes with this is be right a lot. I want you doing things on your own if I think your judgment is really good. I once had a director working for me who is very earnest and a wonderful person, and I once had to tell them right now, anyway, your product judgment is so poor that when you suggest something for our product, my first thought is how would I do the opposite?
00:45:44:06 - 00:46:00:18
Unknown
It's probably better and this was a terrible message you need to give this person, but I definitely want them coming to me to ask about product plans. So it is this trust. Yes. As an engineer, once you've delivered and I know that you do good work and I know that you have good insight. You know, I had an engineer.
00:46:00:18 - 00:46:23:01
Unknown
This goes way back. It's actually someone you might know from when we work together. I won't name names. They were having an argument with someone else at Amazon about a deployment. We had a bug and they felt this other teams to recent deployment had caused the bug. Well, in Amazon tools, they had the ability to roll back the other team's deployment and they exercise that option.
00:46:23:01 - 00:46:41:08
Unknown
Luckily, they came to me right after they did that and said, I may have done something I shouldn't. I just rolled back another team's deployment. Well, we ran over to that other team's office. They were scrambling around and like, we talked to them human to human. And I'm like, you don't know me, I'm so-and-so. They're like, you just rolled back hard to play, man.
00:46:41:08 - 00:47:00:18
Unknown
I'm like, yes, we did, and I'm sorry about that. That was a tactical error and we're here to discuss it. And we were able to call out of the hole we dug. The point is, I want you acting independently. Once I know you're not going to roll back somebody else's deployment without talking to them. So, yes, with qualifications, of course.
00:47:00:18 - 00:47:28:18
Unknown
I would rather you just do great stuff. And I learn about the magic. I think you build your way into that a little bit with trust. If I have a brand new employee who's like, hey, I just, you know, made this huge bet on something that is scary to me. If I haven't built that trust when it comes to managing up, I think that there is a particular dynamic that I hear quite a bit around expectations around work increasing, especially because of AI.
00:47:28:19 - 00:47:50:24
Unknown
We have all of this AI at rights code for us. Here's some more stuff on your plate. By the way. You should be ten x more efficient because the AI is doing all of this stuff. But we had this problem, I think, before this recent AI thing where, yes, I want to manage up. Yes, I want to build the relationship with my manager, but they keep on piling things onto my plate and they're overloading me.
00:47:51:05 - 00:48:09:10
Unknown
So how do we circle that square? Yeah. So this is really important. I'm glad you asked. I think there is an art as well. Again, as a science to talk to your manager. And the essence of that is I'm doing a lot of things for you. You seem to appreciate it when I say for you, for the team, for our shared goals.
00:48:09:10 - 00:48:30:00
Unknown
I'm being very productive. But there's a priority and a value to the things I do. I may bring you a proposal, but can we talk about moving some of the lower priority things I'm doing off my plate so that I have more room for the higher value, and that can mean not doing them. It can mean investing in automating them.
00:48:30:00 - 00:48:58:13
Unknown
It can mean giving them to someone more junior because nobody likes to think of themselves as junior. But there is truth that one person's boring. Wrote work is another person's completely new. Oh wow. The other thing is there is taste. While they're rare, I have met people who are ticket ops and maintenance lovers and machines. They don't want to work on the new project.
00:48:58:14 - 00:49:22:12
Unknown
They love trying to take what exists and refactor it. Which ever person you are, you're trying to find that counterpart person or get your manager's help. How can I move some of this? And the way you make that win win with the manager is simple math. I think you're getting benefit. You like what I do? I like what I do for you, with you.
00:49:22:12 - 00:49:44:02
Unknown
But I'm now at capacity. What can we do to free I? Here are my ideas on how to free my capacity. What can we do together? That's the key. And managers. This is a place where they should be strong is they're all about priorities and capacity and resource management. That's actually the game they play all day while you're playing.
00:49:44:05 - 00:50:03:23
Unknown
How do I make this work? They're playing the how do I move the chess pieces. There is the floor where some managers will be like, well, you still have Sunday morning free. Yeah. You know, and that's again where you may have to then learn something about character. Well, I think, you know, I'm just channeling my clients, by the way please.
00:50:03:24 - 00:50:22:13
Unknown
You know, but I thought about I have to say, by the way, it seems like this is suddenly become Ethan coaches Steve's clients, I don't mind, no, I hope whoever these nameless clients are, they're getting a lot of value, which is totally fine, you know, by the way, I'm answering them. But I have a thread in my in my community, which is basically like, hey, I'm interviewing Ethan.
00:50:22:13 - 00:50:45:17
Unknown
Are there any questions that I can ask them? And so I've already talked to them as well. But essentially, if I were to channel this particular client, she would say something like, everything that's put on my plate is of high priority, and I can maybe show him the math of all of the stuff that's going on. The retort might be, well, you have AI now, you should be able to go and find some time.
00:50:45:17 - 00:51:11:13
Unknown
I do absolutely agree with you, though, that this type of the reluctance for pushing back when your plate is full is a very junior thing, and it might take quite a while before you actually understand this skill. Not all things are like high priority. It's not every every task is like evenly distributed in terms of prioritization, but it may be presented to you in that way.
00:51:11:15 - 00:51:33:23
Unknown
Well, so let me give you the manager's perspective. I told you, I'm here for the empathy for managers. One of the dangers of being the magical person for a manager is, I don't know when the magic runs out. What I know is if I ask Steve to take care of something, it gets done well, quickly and right. And there is something we teach managers, which is if you want something done, give it to a busy person.
00:51:33:24 - 00:51:54:17
Unknown
Now this is counter into it. Why don't you give it to the not busy person? Well, the reason that person is not busy is they probably aren't that good, right? Like work has been moved off of them. As you find that it's usually late or usually buggy or usually flawed. The busy person is very efficient, very effective. So if you actually want something done, you give it to your busy people.
00:51:54:17 - 00:52:14:12
Unknown
The problem is, if you don't push back, you're now relying on me to have a better picture of how much capacity you have than you do, which is nuts. As you know, in the modern workplace, there's always infinite work that can be done. There's always more features and more ways to optimize. So I have an unlimited amount of work my team could do that would help our team.
00:52:14:13 - 00:52:41:10
Unknown
I give it out, and as long as you keep saying yes, I can fall into assuming either a you have time to be you have flexible capacity and you're not upset yet. So even if I'm a good person, I'm just not that observant, I can imagine. Oh, sorry. The other fall, every manager ever probably envision that what they've asked you to do is easier than it is, because I'm not in any of the details.
00:52:41:10 - 00:53:05:20
Unknown
So just like I hate the word should, I hate the word just can't you just. Oh. Can't you just add a database column when I say something like that to you? The principle in you is thinking about 50 things and thinking, no, and you're an idiot. Whereas I'm like, well, I don't know. It's just, can't we just add a new key?
00:53:05:21 - 00:53:24:16
Unknown
I try and never use the word just, I do sometimes I try to avoid it for exactly that reason, but that's the manager flaws. It looks simple to them, by the way. The same for product managers and whoever. It looks simple to them. So I think I'm asking you for ten minutes and you know, I've asked you for ten hours even with AI.
00:53:24:19 - 00:53:42:14
Unknown
Bottom line is the manager needs information. If you tell them, well, it seems like just a key, but blah blah blah. Or actually this is the sixth ask this week. I only have so many hours they may not even know. Now again, there are the managers who are like yeah, tough. Those are the ones to get away from.
00:53:42:19 - 00:54:11:16
Unknown
Have you ever heard the saying never ascribed to malice? What ignorance explains? I think because managers behavior can be so damaging. Many people feel malice when it's ignorance, and I try not to be ignorant. As a leader. We're all ignorant because I don't live inside your head in your life. So of course I'm ignorant of your constraints. What I'm hearing is this person should turn the problem into a math problem and attempt to educate transparency.
00:54:11:17 - 00:54:34:13
Unknown
Math is one way to be very transparent. Here are the eight things that I'm responsible for. These things blew up. Maybe we just use the word just or should there help me find more hours in the day? Or can we prioritize all of these things on my plate? Yeah. And one thing I love to remind people, and ideally I tell managers, is I asked them, what were you doing last Tuesday morning?
00:54:34:14 - 00:54:59:10
Unknown
Did it matter? Well, most of us have no damned idea what we were doing last Tuesday morning. It's so yesterday. But if we go back and look, we ran a meeting or it wasn't pivotal work. Much of the work we do ends up being wasted. And so I think lots of work isn't that valuable. If we really look at it, we're doing it for inertia, for legacy reasons, because we always have.
00:54:59:13 - 00:55:21:06
Unknown
You know, I talk to people who are producing reports that no one reads because three years ago, some other director was in charge. And at that moment there really was a rapport. But no one had said, do we need this? Humans, and particularly big businesses are terrible at killing things. Does Amazon still have Mechanical Turk? Do you know I tried to kill this project.
00:55:21:07 - 00:55:49:03
Unknown
Other people tried to kill it. It was the zombie project and for different reasons. Even the team that owned it didn't really want to work on it anymore at times. But like, no one could quite get to, like, let's just pull the plug. I think companies are full. You may know of many zombie priorities like that last thing on managing up, which is like, hey, we're trying to do this thing where we're removing bags of crap from our manager.
00:55:49:03 - 00:56:07:07
Unknown
I think a common question that people have is like, I don't know what's on my manager's plate. I don't know how I can help my manager. I've just been in this order taking mode for a long time. How can you get a foothold into where you're managers headset? There's a few ways, and I like to give people different methods.
00:56:07:08 - 00:56:25:01
Unknown
One is look at anything they've written or said. What are they saying in the all hands? What are they sending out in their status report? That's one. The second is you can talk to other people around like, oh, what are our group priorities? What are our, you know, what are you working on? You can kind of look at the pattern of work and figure out where it's going.
00:56:25:05 - 00:56:50:06
Unknown
The third is fundamentally how does the company make money? Because what you're doing somehow ties to how your product makes money. And then, of course, I've left the most direct to last, which is simply ask oh, simply is like, just want to be careful. Go ask. And there are many ways to ask. There are classic formulations managers will recognize what are your priorities and how can I support them is one.
00:56:50:06 - 00:57:10:11
Unknown
But the other classic one is what keeps you up at night. I recently was talking to someone who said they had learned the rule. Always insist on working on their managers. Most difficult problem they were, and they had a good relationship with their manager, and they talked to their manager, and the manager would talk about problems or priorities, and they would say, what is your hardest problem?
00:57:10:11 - 00:57:27:22
Unknown
What is most upsetting to you? Or if they got a piece of work from the manager, they'd say, is this your most important problem? If the manager said no, they would argue to go work on the most important thing. I don't know if that applies all the time, but these are ways to get at what is manager thinking about?
00:57:27:23 - 00:57:54:22
Unknown
I have surveyed thousands of managers, both in my classes and at Amazon before. Offers of help are rare and stand out, and all managers have a worry list in their head. They've divided their team into some formal or informal breakdown of who they can worry about the least, maybe none, and who they need to worry about the most, or what projects just they have it in their head already.
00:57:54:22 - 00:58:15:21
Unknown
You simply need to offer them a safe place to express it, because they would love to tell you about their worries and have you help with it. Because if you will help me with it, I can worry about it less. And I you talked about managing up another rule employees can take away a place you can trust almost any manager is when it's in their own selfish best interest.
00:58:15:21 - 00:58:34:24
Unknown
So if you will handle a problem, for me, it is in my own selfish best interest to give you what you need to do. That whether it's information or permission or encouragement or skills. We don't have to like each other. For me to realize I should probably help you help me. It would be like, I don't know, hitting your doctor with a stick or something.
00:58:34:24 - 00:58:50:09
Unknown
This is, you know, you need the doctor's help. Hitting them with a stick is not going to get that. You're better off to say like, doctor, you know. Do I need to lay on the table? Yes you do. That's how I can do heart surgery. Like, same thing with managers. Make it easy for them. How do I ask for a raise?
00:58:50:10 - 00:59:17:07
Unknown
So first good news. Only 30% of people ask for raises. 70% don't. But of the 30% who do, 70% of them get something. They may not get what they wanted, but they get something. So the bottom line is the math favors asking how do you ask? The best way to ask is number one, don't open with I want to raise because that's personal.
00:59:17:07 - 00:59:36:24
Unknown
It's selfish. It's I would like more money for the same work. And if you just step back, why would I do that? As a as a company I'm paying X dollars today. You wanting X plus in dollars tomorrow is bad for the company's bottom line. Probably. Why would I do that? Well, I have to have a reason. So give me reasons.
00:59:37:00 - 01:00:02:14
Unknown
One reason you can give, of course, is high performance. Look at what I've done. The second one I often recommend is find a framing that humanizes it. The most common one, if it's true for you, is family. I need to be thinking about my family. You can pull in anything that's true about an expense, but the the point is, you can you want to try and make it that it's not just about you and your greed.
01:00:02:15 - 01:00:21:15
Unknown
The second thing is comparisons externally and internally doesn't mean you can't ask for a raise. If you're very well paid then though, that has to lean much more in high performance. The easiest case potentially is I'm doing good work and I know I'm low in the salary band. You give the reasons that are like, you should do this because it's fair and I know you have the room.
01:00:21:15 - 01:00:38:18
Unknown
The hardest reason is I want to be paid much more than the average person. Then I have to make a case as to why I'm delivering that value. The fundamental thing is how do you enlist the manager in wanting to do this? It's not. You need to give me a raise. Confrontational. Why won't you give me a raise?
01:00:38:18 - 01:01:08:00
Unknown
Those are terrible framings. Instead, I would like to make more money in order to better take care of my family. How can we work together so that. That's an obvious case for YouTube that you can help me make? That's the collaborative you are on our mutual friend Ryan's podcast. Two times there was a there was a term that struck me, it's this polite fiction concept.
01:01:08:01 - 01:01:31:07
Unknown
What is it and how should we be using it in the context of politics at work? So I think polite fiction is the concept of sometimes it's everyone wants to hear something pleasant that may not be completely true, more than they want to confront the truth. The most common case of this is where I casually ask you in the hallway, how you doing?
01:01:31:07 - 01:01:53:12
Unknown
And the totally accepted answer is fine. I'm really just saying hello, and I don't want to hear about your girlfriend. Yeah. So polite fiction. The literal example is where you say fine, even though maybe things aren't great now, it doesn't mean. By the way, if I'm a caring person, I don't want to hear if there's a real problem that I can do something about, or if you just need an ear.
01:01:53:12 - 01:02:11:19
Unknown
But there is a polite fiction notion of we all smooth some things over the place where I talk about the most polite fiction is interviewing. Most people aren't comfortable saying, I'm going to be out on Monday. I'm going to go interview somewhere else to see if it's a better job. So instead they say, I have a doctor's appointment.
01:02:11:19 - 01:02:29:18
Unknown
Well, what I talk about is polite fiction is I know enough that when you say you have a doctor's appointment on Monday or Friday, a little flag goes in my head and says, maybe, but I don't want to confront you about it. I don't want to ask you, is that really a doctor's appointment, Steve, or are you interviewing?
01:02:29:18 - 01:02:55:15
Unknown
What I do is I let it slide, you let it slide. We don't have to have that potentially difficult conversation. You might want to choose to have it instead. But what I do, and this is where polite fiction has its limits. If you're on your third Friday doctor appointment in four weeks, I kind of know something's going. Either you're very sick, I may have to ask you about it, or I can start asking myself, how am I going to backfill Steve when he leaves?
01:02:55:16 - 01:03:18:08
Unknown
Or can I do anything to save you? I see polite fiction as a reality that people tell white light is so-called white lies, even though I believe very strongly in telling the truth. Another place people force managers into white lies for whatever reason companies love. There are some reasons, but they love to keep layoffs secret. And so employees will come into my office and say, I've heard a rumor that we're about to have a layoff.
01:03:18:08 - 01:03:36:05
Unknown
Are we going to have a layoff? Unfortunately, at that point, whether you consider a white lie or not, I have to put on my game face because of orders and because of company policy and say, absolutely not. We're we're going forward full speed until something's different. Now, I may choose for someone special to take a risk if I think they'll not let it out.
01:03:36:05 - 01:04:03:02
Unknown
But there are places where company policy can create all kinds of problems. If you don't like that one, another one is, I've heard that Fred is being investigated for malfeasance. Are we going to get rid of that guy? I can't answer that. So I can either say I don't know anything about that polite fiction. Or I could say the problem is if I say, I'm sorry, I can't discuss anything, that's confirmation.
01:04:03:04 - 01:04:27:02
Unknown
So those are where those things come up is you can see where a polite fiction could be used as a justification for manipulation. We were talking about that spectrum between influence and manipulation and the overlap that was there. Where do you draw that line? Well, this is really important. I draw it differently depending on my relationship to the person, both how much do I trust them and how much do I care about them?
01:04:27:02 - 01:04:51:10
Unknown
Someone who's low on both trust and or care, I will lean more towards both dishonesty and manipulation because it's easier for me and less emotional cost for me. And so that's the point we made all the way at the beginning about play this game or lose it, if you're someone I've decided is just a cog in my wheel that is a little bit abrasive, I don't owe you anything.
01:04:51:10 - 01:05:12:12
Unknown
And people get mad at that like that. That executive just said they don't owe me anything. They're going to abuse me. Yup. You know, I only have so much energy that's going to happen and you can dislike it or you can do better on the other side. If I have time and I'm not caught by surprise, I always try to think about what is the most transparent, honest thing I can say because I believe that builds trust.
01:05:12:12 - 01:05:32:21
Unknown
So a story from early in my career is I did learn that a layoff was going on. My my manager came to me and said, I wanted to let you know, we're laying off people in the organization today. No one on your team is affected. You can't tell anyone. I was brand new manager, and the first thing I did was run out and gather my team to tell them there was a layoff going on and none of them were affected.
01:05:32:22 - 01:05:51:03
Unknown
My manager caught on. I was doing this, walked into the room while I was explicitly violating what she said. Luckily, I had a very good manager with a very good relationship and she said, you know, Ethan, you can't do that. I'll remember you did it. But I will say, I understand, and that probably I'd have done the same thing at your age.
01:05:51:06 - 01:06:10:04
Unknown
And so I got a pretty big pass on that. So that's the other end of it. Where do I draw the line? I wish I could say I always drew it perfectly. Here's a truth that is important to know about your manager. I, and I think all other managers lie more when caught without time to think through. What do I want to say?
01:06:10:04 - 01:06:30:16
Unknown
What can I say safely? Because we have this loop and I think all humans do this. We have this loop of what can we share safely. And if we don't know, we're going to go to the minimum. Nothing I can share, nothing safely, so I'll say nothing. As for manipulating another important rule, these are actually the real. We're ending with the real politics.
01:06:30:18 - 01:06:50:23
Unknown
The more secure a person is, the less they may choose to manipulate because they can afford to. You're well aware that I've retired, and I retired with enough money so I can afford to be transparent. Why was the podcast with our mutual friend Ryan so successful? I could afford to talk transparently about things that I might not want to say on the record.
01:06:50:23 - 01:07:14:24
Unknown
If I had to go get a corporate job the next day, because some corporations might not like me talking about how I feel about certain HR policies or whatever. Is your person that you're working with secure because an insecure person is going to be more about protecting their own security than they are about being transparent or truthful. And I believe psychology backs me up on this.
01:07:14:24 - 01:07:46:09
Unknown
All people will lie when they're under enough emotional duress. This is actually we're going to go very dark here. It's why torture has been discredited as a method to get information, because if you put someone under enough to rest, they will say anything to make the duress stop. And this is true in work and in life, which is if you corner me as a boss or as an employee, I will say the most outrageous, transparently bullshit things and stick to them because I'm trying to protect myself and eliminate the pain.
01:07:46:09 - 01:08:09:12
Unknown
So if you want truth from someone, you have to help them feel safe and secure. It's the only way you're going to get truth. And this drives some people nuts, is like, why do I have to manage you to get the truth from you? Well, it's only if you want it. Only if you want the truth. Is there a way to, as a manager, as an employee, have integrity and just not be dishonest, not be forced to lie?
01:08:09:12 - 01:08:39:05
Unknown
Whether that's a lie of like a little white lie or it's a lie of omission, is that something that's possible, or is a polite fiction sort of part of the game? I am sure it is possible, particularly for a company owner in a very profitable position where if someone asks, are you considering layoffs and they were planning an announcement or thinking about it, they they are okay saying something like, yeah, I'm thinking about layoffs, you know, and just letting that message take care of itself.
01:08:39:05 - 01:09:10:22
Unknown
I don't think in practicality you're going to find that from almost anyone. I hate lying, I hate doing it, and I hate being lied to. And I'm still going to sit here and say there are cases where every manager and every employee lies for so many reasons reputation, self-image, you know, a simple one. Let's say you went out with your friends last night and you had a particularly good time, and it went longer than you thought, and you're kind of dragging yourself into work the next morning and you're late.
01:09:10:23 - 01:09:34:20
Unknown
Oh, Steve, you're running late today. Everything okay? Most people are not going to decide that's the right place to say, well, I'm actually pretty hungover. We drank a lot. And that's just like even an innocuous case of it. It's just, again, that's a polite fiction where you're more likely to say something like, oh yeah, you know, a car alarm went off in our neighborhood and I didn't get much sleep.
01:09:34:24 - 01:09:51:09
Unknown
That's a pure lie. But people are going to do that. I try to be as honest as possible if it pisses off some people who follow me. Are you? Yes, I lie, I hate it, I hate it when I do it, and I don't think it's avoidable. And I'm not going to tell you that you're going to find any truthful people.
01:09:51:10 - 01:10:21:23
Unknown
Like where truthful means always. I don't know any. Never have. I appreciate your candor. I think I would have tried to weasel my way out with the polite fiction. There are people who don't lie that there's a way to do it, but I do think there are levels to this stuff. There is a blatant mistruths where you're completely BS people, and then there's the stuff that you know, you need to say because as part of your job, I do think that there's a little white lie that exists.
01:10:21:24 - 01:10:40:11
Unknown
You know, we might teach our children that, you know, under no circumstances is it okay. I just think that the reality is that this is this is a reality of of working. What are the levels of it they're required to because of a security clearance or whatever? No, I don't know anything about our plans for war in Iran could be a complete lie.
01:10:40:13 - 01:10:56:00
Unknown
You know that they're required by their government job to say, then there's lies that are at least protecting yourself. Meaning like I'm protecting. You know, I don't want to admit something unsavory or whatever. That was up all night last night screaming at my wife were getting a divorce. I don't want to share that. So I say I'm fine.
01:10:56:01 - 01:11:14:14
Unknown
Then there are lies that are much more designed to advance myself at your cost. And those are the ones that we really dislike. I get that everyone wants to believe that everyone else would be truthful with them. First thing, go own your own lies, please. You know, if you can go look in the mirror and say, I have never told any sort of falsehood, then come meet me.
01:11:14:14 - 01:11:40:16
Unknown
I want to know you. Yeah, but second, there's the lies that are trying to hurt others. And there are also one thing I often teach people collateral damage. Often you feel like someone targeted you where the person actually was just thinking about themselves and not about you. It's a little bit off topic, but there are definitely levels. That's a big sign of maturity is where am I willing to accept some pain in order to do right by you?
01:11:40:17 - 01:12:07:21
Unknown
It's a big sign that you have a good boss. Is where is the boss willing to accept some inconvenience or discomfort, or even suffering for themselves as a part of the teamwork? You know, you saw me when I was coming in today, I was texting, I think I said, I'm finishing up something with a business client. We were discussing our relationship and how we had a partnership relationship where we were willing to suffer a little bit of difficulty and frustration in order to help each other.
01:12:07:21 - 01:12:27:07
Unknown
He was willing to do more inside his company to help me, and I was, well, that's the relationship you want and it's a huge sign of relationship. To invest in is where will this person sacrifice? You didn't ask this question, but people ask how to earn trust. You normally earn trust through sacrifice. In other words, the simplest definition of trust is you do what you say.
01:12:27:08 - 01:12:47:08
Unknown
But it's much more impressive when I can see that what you said is now costing you a little bit. That's where I become impressed. You're working longer hours or you're whatever it is you're doing. Working long hours is too overused, but you're dealing with difficult people, or you're spending money or any sort of sign that impresses me a lot more then only you came through.
01:12:47:14 - 01:13:08:15
Unknown
Ethan, thanks so much for stopping by today. If they wanted more from you. Where should they go? Yeah. Ethan Evans com is my website. It's got all of my classes. One day when my book comes out, I have a book contract. Books take a really long time. My book will be there. And of course, you can follow me on LinkedIn or my newsletter, but all of those are linked off my website.
01:13:08:16 - 01:13:11:19
Unknown
Ethan Evans, great, thanks so much. Thank you.