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Welcome to The Overflow—the bonus round of faith and real-life conversation with Brandon and Susan Thomas. Every week, they unpack the powerful insights, behind-the-scenes experiences, and personal reflections that didn’t quite fit into Sunday’s sermon.
This is where the conversation gets practical, honest, and a little bit unscripted. Whether it's an encouraging word, a deeper dive into Scripture, or a hilarious moment from their week, Brandon and Susan bring fresh perspective and spiritual fuel to keep you going.
It’s real talk, fresh takes, and full hearts.
These are the conversations too good to cut and too real to miss.
Hello, and welcome to the overflow with Brandon and Susan. We're so excited to be here with you.
Speaker 2:Welcome. We're glad that you're here.
Speaker 1:And today, we're gonna talk about a hot, hot, hot, hot, hot topic. And the reason we know that this is a hot topic is it's it's hitting us in a lot of different ways. Yes. Today, we're gonna talk about Israel. This has been conversations in the lobby of the church.
Speaker 1:This has been coming up with meals, with friends. We have friends that say their sons have questions for And even some people have have said, hey, are you guys ever gonna address this in the overflow? Well, ta da, here we are. We're gonna go there, and we're gonna talk about Israel.
Speaker 2:Yeah. We are. And it's been something that's been bubbling up currently in our culture, both in our churches, in our culture, in our conversations, in podcast, you know, platforms all over. And I've been on the globe long enough to know that when something starts to pop up, something begins to bubble up, that it's a part of a bigger story. It's not the main story.
Speaker 2:It may be a current day conversation, but there's a bigger story and a bigger context, and I think this this topic of Israel falls into a bigger story.
Speaker 1:It is a bigger story. It's so relevant, and a lot of big, big platforms have been very public in their lack of support for Israel. And I think it's important to just lay cards on the table that we are, we love Israel.
Speaker 2:We do.
Speaker 1:And we have a love for Israel. We cannot wait to go to Israel. We cannot wait to take Keystone to We're super excited about that day when we get to do that. And if you love Israel, one of the easy ways to frame the conversation is to understand what you believe about the end times. You know, the Bible talks, speaks prophetically about the end of days when Jesus comes back and the second coming, And there's a few categories of choices that you have when you read the Bible conservatively, when you read the Bible as authoritative, inerrant truth.
Speaker 1:You have what some people would call pre millennial dispensationalism. You're a dispensationalist. And I don't wanna go too deep into what that means, but just basically, it really echoes the Left Behind series by Tim LaHaye, Jerry Jenkins.
Speaker 2:I love that series.
Speaker 1:I know, it was awesome. We loved it together. I read every one of those books.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:And it has a belief that Israel, as reflected in those books, has a very special role in the end times. And what I'd love for us to do today is to really put that aside. Let's say you're not a dispensationalist, because if you're a dispensationalist, there it is, you love Israel. I mean, that's part of being a dispensationalist, and Israel has such a key role. Now, is an extreme view in that camp that believes that all the Jews will be saved whether they believed in Jesus or not.
Speaker 1:It's like an uber election where you're, and I, we don't believe that. No. I wanna put the cards on the table for that.
Speaker 2:The Bible's clear.
Speaker 1:Yes, and the Bible's clear that Jews and Gentiles, both, will come to a restoration of their relationship with God, and be an eternity with God forever in the new heavens and new earth, only because of the crucified and risen Christ.
Speaker 2:That's right, by grace through faith.
Speaker 1:That's right, that we are saved. So I wanna set aside the dispensationalist view for a second, because I think there's a lot of reasons to love Israel if you're not a dispensationalist. And I'm not gonna go into in time stuff, but there's post millennial, there's amillennial, there's all kinds of different views. We're not doing that here today.
Speaker 2:We don't wanna lose you on the big words.
Speaker 1:But if you were any of those other camps, and you're not sure, and Israel doesn't hold a special, special, special particular place in the end times, and in how Jesus is coming back, then why would I love Jesus? Why would I love Israel? Then we have some reasons. And one of the first things that I want to go to is the covenant. That God made a covenant with the people of Israel in the Old Testament, and it started with Abraham, and it was because of his faith.
Speaker 1:The Bible said, go to the land that I will show you. That faith was so strong that sight unseen, Abram, later to be renamed Abraham
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Left Er and went on a journey of following God.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And this as we enter into the deep waters, right, of this conversation, we're coming to you from a pastoral standpoint. This is a It's good. Highly politicized conversation right now in our culture. And while we I greatly appreciate the experts in politics, I am not one.
Speaker 2:But I deeply love the bible, and and I have a few thoughts to share. Well, a lot of thoughts today, but to kick off. But what I would say is I've had an affinity for Israel as long as I've been a Christ follower. But moments like this in history cause one to dig deeper. Why do I believe what I believe?
Speaker 2:I would say today, whoever you are, ask yourself the question, why do I believe what I believe? And don't stop there. Go on a deep dive into the word of God because the bible is our guide. The bible's our compass. And so I've really enjoyed brushing up on why do I love Israel?
Speaker 2:Because I because I know I do. But why do I love Israel? And with these currents that are flowing in our in our culture at the moment, I want to know why I believe what I believe.
Speaker 1:You know, I was gonna start with the covenant, but maybe maybe something that would be good for us to start with is this question, and is it appropriate ever to criticize Israel?
Speaker 2:Right. Well, if you look at the Old Testament, that was a pretty constant theme.
Speaker 1:Yes. Well, first of all, God criticizes Israel.
Speaker 2:Oh my goodness.
Speaker 1:And second of all, Israel is not always a beacon of morality in the In second Chronicles 33, you see Manasseh, literally, it is government policy to sacrifice babies on the altar to an idol, and you know, you just gotta understand that the Bible doesn't paint a picture that love of Israel means that you love everything Israel does.
Speaker 2:That's so important to be said, and that what was true in in biblical Old Testament times is absolutely still true today. The people of Israel are a people, and people are messy, and people are lost without Christ. And we do terrible things as people without Christ, without Jesus' redemption. And so that's actually something that's not new. And so when we see something that is wrong, whether it be in a government or in a person or in a people, It is not wrong to call those things out.
Speaker 2:But you can I think this hits on something that we are so big on, and that is the either or? Mhmm. People love to live, and maybe it's a comfortable thing. It's more comfortable if I could It's just categorize
Speaker 1:black and white. Yes. Tell me what to do. Tell me what to believe. Tell me make it real easy.
Speaker 1:Make it real simple. Winners, losers.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Good guy, bad guy.
Speaker 2:Yes. But sometimes, actually, often, it's a both and.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And when it comes to Israel, are they God's chosen people? We're gonna really dive into what that means because it's a possibility, and don't misunderstand that it's a both and, spiritually speaking, and on this earth, this side of heaven. And so it might be helpful just to go to the beginnings of Israel because as you were talking about that old initial covenant, with Abraham, who was the very first that God called and made big time promises to, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, out of their seed came the nation of Israel.
Speaker 1:I will bless those who bless you. To those that are against you, I will curse them. It is it is, that is the crux right there, and it's even gotten a lot of waves where people quoted that verse, but could, you know, for one reason or another, got real contentious on is that for then, or is that for now? Yeah. So am I burdened to only have good feelings about Israel, or can I And what I'd say is blessing Israel doesn't mean you are silent when Israel does something wrong?
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 1:Again, God raised up judges against Israel even, against the people of Israel. And so it's not the absence of criticism. And let me make another point. When it comes to government, I am 100% patriot. Like, I love when I was in high school, we were the Patriots.
Speaker 1:That's my high school. But I love America. When I stand at football game, it's hat off, hand over your heart, sing God Bless America. I mean, I'm all in on all of that. Lee Greenwood, yeah, let's go.
Speaker 1:I'm all in. And yet, I have incredible problems with our government. There are areas of our government that I would critique and criticize at the drop of a hat.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:I am distrustful of government as a posture. I have a worldview that believes that the founders actually wanted to make government slow and difficult because they didn't trust government. So that's the way I feel about America where I live. So I I don't feel an either or on I can love Israel. I can believe that there's something special about Israel, and yet still have room to critic to have valid criticisms.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. Absolutely. And so let's just go for a moment to the big story. Because I think if we kind of get a big picture story of Israel and then move to how it applies to current day, I just know that's helpful to me, maybe helpful to you listening. And so I wanna just take us back to Genesis chapter 12.
Speaker 2:I'm just gonna kind of share a couple of passages as I was preparing for this thought this conversation and thinking about these thoughts. Genesis 12 verse one, it says, I will make of you, this is God to Abraham, a great nation and make your name great. Goes on to say, and all in you, all of the families of the earth will be blessed. Genesis 22, he says, I will bless you and multiply your offspring. Goes on to say, as stars of heaven and the sand of seashores.
Speaker 2:Now this is very interesting. I was listening to someone talk about what does that mean? Again
Speaker 1:The stars
Speaker 2:of of heaven and the sand of seashores. And this one person who had really done a deep dive, he expressed that the stars of heaven is a is a promise of Abraham's spiritual seed, which we'll see play out all throughout scripture, particularly when Jesus comes and how this plays out in the New Testament. The the the children of faith who put their faith in Jesus, who put their faith in God. But then there's also the sand of seashores. And and this person that I was listening to and just appreciated his research suggested that those sand of seashores was the lineage on earth, the earthly bloodline of Abraham himself.
Speaker 2:And those two things don't always overlap. Now they can, but not every Jew, bloodline Jew will accept Christ as their lord and savior. So that's the origins of the beginnings of the Israel nation.
Speaker 1:And see, and I'll offer another thought on those, and again, I'm I don't have the study for that Yeah. That person had done, so I I yield to that a little. But you know, I don't, I also see that sometimes in the Bible, I have studied Hebrew poetry and wisdom literature, and I've studied, you know, enough of the language of the Old Testament to understand that those pictures don't necessarily have to be theologically driving. It could just be a word picture where God is saying a lot of you.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Could be as simple as a lot of you.
Speaker 1:Could be so simple as, hey, look up at the sky, lots of stars, lots of people. Hey, look at the sand under your feet, lots of sand, lots of people. And if I, you know, one way to look at that is that, you know, some might say that the covenant and that connection with Abram really extended to his immediate family. To me, this right here is saying, no, we're going way beyond your immediate Stars in the sky, sand under your feet, whether that is divided out, like you said, spiritual and physical bloodline, and spiritual bloodline, whichever it is, the point is much bigger. And I'm struck by the fact that when you read the Old Testament, and you really just read it, Israel has a central casting.
Speaker 2:The whole time.
Speaker 1:A central casting. You're constantly in this drama. Now the drama is a real drama.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:And the drama is, hey, I'm raising up a good king. Oh, sorry, he's become a bad king. Here's another good king. Oh, he's a bad king. Here's a bad king.
Speaker 1:Here's a bad king. There's a good king. Here's a good judge, there's a bad judge. And it's just this constant thing where they're stumbling, they're struggling, but it is moving forward to the culmination in Matthew, where, check this out, we get a lineage, you know, the chronology in Matthew chapter one, where you see the chronology, and what is he doing? It is showing the bloodline to Jesus.
Speaker 1:It is showing how Israel got to Jesus. Right. And so to me, I just see this, it is special. It is There is something special about that covenant that even though they themselves tried to set it on fire a 100 times, yet still it brought us through Rahab the prostitute, through all the various characters, brought us to Jesus.
Speaker 2:Jesus the Messiah. And as you look at Israel from that moment when Abraham and Isaac and Jacob began that nation, and tell me your thoughts about this, But this was a group of people that God designated. One would say, he chose. The Bible says, he chose to be his people. And this nation, the people of God, the children of Israel, they were intended to be a beacon to the world of the creator who made us all.
Speaker 2:They were intended to be the ones who pointed to how good God is. And just like many of us, if not all of us, right, they all of us, they all fell short. They all would reject him, would rebel against him. But within the journey from throughout the old testament, it's like a love story of God continuing to pursue humanity.
Speaker 1:It's the greatest drama.
Speaker 2:The greatest drama. Pursuing humanity. Why? Because he loved us. And he chose Israel to be those people that he showed the world his love through.
Speaker 2:And as much as they rejected him, I think what's beautiful is that time and time again, you would see a remnant. There would be a remnant in all of the Jewish people who did not believe God, who did not follow God, who created or did great atrocities, there would be a remnant that did believe God. Yes. And this is a consistent pattern that you see in the Old Testament, and we see it now playing out in the New Testament. And so it's just important to see Israel's role historically and biblically.
Speaker 2:They were God's chosen people.
Speaker 1:They were.
Speaker 2:The question is, are they still, and why do we love them today?
Speaker 1:So one of the things about why they why I believe there's something special there is when God makes a covenant, when God makes a covenant, I believe we need to proceed with caution before you just throw it out. Like, you're the expert that God has lifted his hands off, that it's done. And I want to speak to this. There is a lot of mocking
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Online. There's a lot. We have pastors that are mocking premillennial dispensationalists, and saying, How could you believe that? That's only 200 years old. And again, I'm not even identifying as a pre male dispensationalist, but the mocking, and this is a whole another conversation for another time, but I think that we need to tone down the derision, and the mocking, and this is heresy, and man, we're throwing words around, and this is not the place to do that.
Speaker 1:I would say when God makes a covenant with his people, when he made a covenant with Abraham, when he made a covenant with David, He is pushing forward something very important, and I, even if you're questionable about if modern day Israel is the same Israel of the Bible, when God makes a covenant, be careful. You need to be cautious. When God sets his face on a group of people, even if you could imagine they're in their own Babylonian faith exile right now, while the Israel Israelis, when the Israelite people were in Babylon, they were still his people. And I just think we need to be very, very careful, just at the very least, even if you're like, I don't know, be cautious. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Let's not be so mocky, you know, mocking people, and so confident, and so so slam dunk, and you're all idiots.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Let's be cautious when God makes a covenant with a group of people to respect it. I just have such a high view of God, I never wanna cross him. Yeah. Unintentionally. Right.
Speaker 1:I just wanna be careful, so allow this, Maybe that that that could be important for us as a ground.
Speaker 2:Yes. It's very helpful in the conversation because even as you look again at the Old Testament and the people of Israel, you mentioned this earlier, the kings, they would have terrible government. There would be kings that would be on the scene, with the Northern Kingdom, the Southern Kingdom, different times in Israel's history, but there were some really, really bad governments. Mhmm. And so whatever you believe about today's Israeli government, and again, this is not my expertise, but regardless, that would track with history.
Speaker 2:That would track with the bible, and that didn't change the fact that God had an affection and a an affinity towards the people of Israel and and to that place. And I think about when you and I went and visited, was my first time ever to visit Israel and getting ready for eventually, we know, we believe there'll be a trip that our church will take to those that wonderful place. Stepping on the ground where Jesus walked, standing in the the steps of the temple. I mean, being in the at the Palace Of David and the remnants of the Palace Of David, these are historical biblical things that really did happen. Real people.
Speaker 2:And and being in that God has something about places that's important to him. Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Wanna talk about that. That's that's big. So we've kinda talked about kinda the Old Testament progression of the importance of Israel Right. Even when they were imperfect. We've talked about how, you know, it's not a slam dunk.
Speaker 1:They're not beyond criticism.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:We've talked about how Israel, God made a covenant with them, and we want to be, I don't want to be cavalier
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:With a group of people that God has made a covenant with. So what about that covenant? At the very least, let's talk about the land. And the land is precious to God. This is the place where God says he will set up his new Jerusalem, and Christ will reign from new Jerusalem.
Speaker 1:This is that place. This is the place that is being preserved by the Israeli government. New Testament special places, as well as Old Testament special places is being preserved by the government of Israel. And for that, I think at the very least, we should have such a joy that we have access to the place. It alone would be a reason for me to be thankful for Israel.
Speaker 1:You are a good custodian of the place. You are a good custodian. I mean, let's just be practical. This doesn't even have to be necessarily theological. I'll get to theological, but just practically speaking, hey, I want I want the people in charge of that space over there, people who will allow us to come and see it.
Speaker 2:To walk in the Garden Of Gethsemane.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I mean, there is a dome on the rock. The dome Of The rock, which is is, it's the big golden dome that you see. That is a mosque, okay? That is a holy site for Islam, and it is placed over where the Temple Mount was, where the holy of holies was, and that is the pattern of tearing down, and rejecting, and removing.
Speaker 1:I am not a big fan of all of their enemies taking over the land, and handing it over to Islam. Handing it over, and just believing that they'll be the same custodians as the people of Israel. The people of Israel have been incredible custodians to the land that is special to God. Now, so that's just practical. Like, I mean, I could tell that to somebody that just loves Jesus, you know, whatever you believe.
Speaker 1:But also, there's something about the land that it is special. God is about places, and God has, this particular place was the place where you see this rhythm of things happening in this place, pointing to Christ. This is the place where Christ was crucified. This is the place where Christ was risen. This is the place where the church was born.
Speaker 1:And I would take you to Israel, and there's just something supernatural. And I know that that's not like an argument, but it is.
Speaker 2:Share with me what you were talking about with Abraham and Isaac, and where Isaac was sacrificed in that same ground.
Speaker 1:Yes. So that's what I was saying. There were some things that were pointing to the coming of Christ, all in this same place, and David made it the capital city, and it's just a very, very special, special place. So where these places are, God, it's so, and it's not just removed since Christ. He says, I will come back to this place.
Speaker 1:I will set up the new Jerusalem in this place. So, that place needs to be taken care of. That place needs to be cherished, and I would say it needs to be visited. It needs to, it's like a pilgrimage in my heart. Now, not in the Bible, but when I see pray for the peace of Jerusalem, I wanna continue to pray for the peace of Jerusalem.
Speaker 1:There's some other reasons to be for Israel. You've got the the place. You've got the people. You know, there's something about, and talking about the covenant, Susan, there's something about the people of Israel that they should not exist today. They should have been wiped off the planet by now, because people group after people group, whether it was the Babylonians, whether it was the Romans, whether it was whatever, just the Nazis, there's just been an effort to systematically remove them from planet Earth.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And there are people groups that are no longer with us. There are religions that are no longer with us, and yet still the people of Israel just persist. There's just something about the place, there's something about the land, and there's something about the people. And you talked about the remnant. I'm talking about the people.
Speaker 1:Romans chapter 11 talks about how there will be a remnant. How even those that have grown cold and hard against the cause of Christ, there will always be a remnant. Susan, when we went to Israel, we walked the streets of Old town Jerusalem with a person who is the remnant.
Speaker 2:Yes, a messianic Jew. She loves Jesus, and so when you think about current day, Israel, right now, there are Jewish people there who have accepted Christ. They are chosen by God for all eternity. And I do believe this kinda moves us into the portion of the conversation of when you think about Israel, is Israel God's chosen people? And what does that mean?
Speaker 2:We talked about the idea if those images are talking about a heavenly chosen people versus earthly chosen people, the seed and the star. But the bible, I just really found this interesting in Romans chapter ten and eleven. God really speaks to it clearly through the words of Paul, and I'm just gonna read some of it to us starting in verse 10. And listen to this. When you talk about Israel and you think, you know, should I love Israel?
Speaker 2:Well, listen to how Paul feels about Israel. And this is post Jesus going back, resurrected, going back to sit at the right hand of the father. In Romans chapter 10, this is his heart for Israel. He says, dear brothers and sisters, the longing of my heart and my prayer to God is for the people of Israel to be saved. He's longing for the people of Israel, the earthly people of Israel to be saved.
Speaker 2:He says, I know that what enthusiasm they have for God, but it's misdirected zeal for they don't understand God's way of making people right with himself. And goes on in verse nine saying, here's the right way.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:If you openly declare that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it's by believing in your heart you're made right with God, and by openly declaring your faith that you are saved. And then verse 12, listen to this. Jew and Gentile are the same in this respect. They have the same Lord who gives generously to all who call on him.
Speaker 2:For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. So what Paul is saying is whether you are a Jew or whether you are a Gentile, if you call upon the name of the Lord, you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord, you will be saved. And in that regard, both Jew and Gentile are chosen as the children of God. But he goes on to still differentiate the earthly nation, the earthly seed, the earthly Jewish people. And he goes on and he talks about them being grafted in and grafted out.
Speaker 1:He talks about it in chapter 11, and I wanna read this in regards In to regards to the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. He's talking real time. Now when we were in Israel, we saw the ossuaries of first century Christian Jews. That means these are the people who experienced persecution because they followed Jesus, but they're Jewish. And he says, but as it regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers.
Speaker 1:For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For just as you were at one time disobedient to God, but have now received mercy because of their disobedience, so they too have now been disobedient in order that the mercy shown to you, they also may now receive mercy. For God has consigned all to disobedience that he may have mercy on all. On and on. This incredible Romans 11, I believe it is a great, strong passage where we are to have a place in our heart that loves the Jewish people.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:That anti Semitism is not an option. We must love the Jewish people, pray for their peace, pray for their salvation. And God is saying, I will bring a great many people to myself. And this is where, whether you are a dispensationalist or not, I personally believe that there is a great harvest of salvation coming for the Jewish people who will turn their face to God. And as Paul says in Romans 11, there is a hardening, and I believe there is a hardening in Israel.
Speaker 1:The people of Israel today, the government, the the people that live in Israel today, a great many of them are not following Orthodox Judaism. They're not following Judaism as we know it in the Bible. They are people who don't They're agnostics, or even atheists. Yeah. A great majority.
Speaker 1:But with that said, I believe there's a harvest of evangelism coming, and for that another reason, to want to preserve the land of Israel, to preserve the people of Israel, is for the mission of God. Paul said, to the Jew first and to the Gentile. Yeah. There is an evangelism of of the people of God, the Jewish people, that would plea I believe pleases the heart of God.
Speaker 2:Yes. Pleases the heart of God, and I found what I was looking for in in Romans 11. If you go and read all of Romans 11, you'll come to the part where he uses the illustration of a tree and being grafted in as the branch and or or being cut off as the branch. And he says that there are people in the nation of Israel, the children of Israel, that have been cut off. And then there are these Gentile people, that'd be you, that'd be me, who've been grafted in.
Speaker 2:And it's a privilege to be grafted in, and he goes on to say that we don't need to be proud for being grafted in, that we need to actually have a holy fear to understand that, yes, we've been grafted in. But if we're not following and trusting God, if we don't trust God, what we cut off too? And then it goes on to say this, and I I just think this is a powerful picture. And here here's my point. When it comes to understanding Israel, only we've said this.
Speaker 2:Only those who accept Christ as lord and savior are the chosen eternal children of God. Yet while we're this side of heaven, God distinguishes the children of Israel, the bloodline of the Jewish people, as an important people to him. And listen what he says Paul says in verse 24 of 11. He's talking to the Gentile. He says, you by nature were a branch cut from a wild olive tree.
Speaker 2:So we were wild. We were just out there in the wild. So if God was willing to do something contrary to nature by grafting you in to his cultivated tree. Mhmm. So he has a cultivated tree, and he's grafting us, the Gentiles, into that tree.
Speaker 2:He will be far more eager to graft the original branches. Who's that? That's Israel. Mhmm. The original branches back into the tree where they belong.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So the chosen people of Israel spiritually are those who put their faith in Christ, but the people on earth who are the bloodline of the Jewish people today, God has a heart for them, and we should too.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And and just a couple of thoughts on on just current, here we are. Okay, well how could you speak so glowingly of Israel when quote unquote they are committing a genocide?
Speaker 2:All
Speaker 1:right, and so this I did look at a little bit, and and, okay, are they committing a genocide? Genocide is happening all over the world. There's a genocide happening in Nigeria right now. What's happening in Nigeria, by the way, there's no marches on college campuses. Columbia University hasn't taken over the campus in outrage because of the Nigerian persecution of Christians, which is about 35 Christians per day who are being killed.
Speaker 1:That is a genocide, and here's why it's a genocide, because the United Nations Convention on Genocide defines genocide as the intent to destroy in whole or in part a national, ethnical, racial, or religious group as such. And it's very important, those words, the intent of it, and as such. And the intent of Israel going after Gaza is going after Hamas, and not for their Islamic faith. There are people, you may not know this, that are actually in the government that are Muslims. They have Muslims represented in their government.
Speaker 2:And they have have the government of Israel?
Speaker 1:Yes, and they have a Muslim who is on the Supreme Court, I'm told. And so they're not wiping out Hamas because they are Muslim.
Speaker 2:Well, addition, when we were in Old Town Israel, which was beautiful, by the way, there was a section where the Christians lived, a section where the Jewish people lived, and a section where the Muslims lived, and they all coexisted. Now they didn't all agree with each other
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:But they all are citizens
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Of Israel. So the idea that Israel is destroying every Muslim or people of that
Speaker 1:faith. It's not true.
Speaker 2:It's just not true.
Speaker 1:I mean, we stood in the Garden Of Gethsemane, and we heard the Muslim Yes. Call to
Speaker 2:I'll never forget it.
Speaker 1:And and so it's You just don't know until you get over there how the government of Israel has created freedom. Has created a freedom of expression, a freedom. Now it's not the same environment as America. No. But it's the closest thing you're gonna get in the Arab nations to that.
Speaker 1:I mean, we're talking even a dear dear friend of ours, their son was on a mission trip to a, what you would call a moderate Muslim country, and they were arrested. Yes. Their son was arrested. Yes. This is totally different than that.
Speaker 1:There's freedom in Israel. With that said, is it a genocide? It is not a genocide. There's a lot of deaths. They've estimated under seventy thousand deaths, but sixty nine thousand, I think, deaths so far.
Speaker 1:The people who report that number, they don't distinguish between civilian and military combatants, but this is the type of activity. This is an armed conflict where it is war, and war is brutal. War is not God's design for humanity like cancer is not God's design for humanity, like poverty is not God's design for humanity, and we should always try not to have war. We should be Christians who are praying for peace, but war is a reality in life, and when war happens, this is what war looks like. And even then, if there were tactics used by the Israeli government, are we willing to criticize those tactics?
Speaker 1:Sure, if they were ungodly, there are tactics that America has used in the past. I would even celebrate the result of the war, and not celebrate some of the tactics. All that to say, it is not a genocide. They are not targeting Muslims because of their Muslim faith, and let's wipe the Muslims off the face here. They're going to war against the people that struck against them in a terroristic fashion.
Speaker 1:That was a genocidal act, where they went and said any Israeli, babies, adults, women, were killing them all, brutally, murderously. And so they're really, it's not a moral equivalency. And I think that's important for us to just say that, that it's they're not morally equivalent.
Speaker 2:And what's interesting to me, again, not my expertise that we're talking about, but thoughts that I have, any Christ loving person hates the idea of innocent death.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Be it even specifically in this case, in a war. We don't want war. We hate war. But the reality is this is not the first war. Just if you're talking about Israel, and we are, if you look back throughout the bible, there was consistently moments in the Old Testament where the people of Israel were at war.
Speaker 2:And there were times when the people of Israel did not even fight their battles, God himself destroyed their enemies. And it's brutal. It's hard for me to read some of what happened there. But the reality is is war is not new. War is a reality of being in a very broken world.
Speaker 2:And when you look at Israel in its state, it is surrounded by people and people of a faith that actively want to destroy Israel.
Speaker 1:Yeah. The phrase that college students are chanting on college campuses, from the river to the sea, is a call to wipe out the people of Israel. Not just relocate, push them into the ocean, eradicate them. And so there's no moral equivalency here, and I would say that even if I was not a Christian, I would make a case to support Israel, and I would support Israel because we share a Judeo Christian ethic. That Judeo Christian ethic has led to more freedom on planet Earth.
Speaker 1:That Judeo Christian ethic has eradicated poverty in places that it was once thought unthinkable, that Judeo Christian ethic has created our current constitution and our rule of law that has been the most just country in the world, that Judeo Christian ethic has liberated millions and millions of people. And so even if I wasn't a Christian, I would say, hey, we share something, and this is a beacon of light, and you do not just look at the countries that are today Muslim dominated and extreme Islamic terrorism. You see where this thing goes, and you do not want to go there again. I'm not Islamophobic. I love people who are Muslim, would love to have the opportunity to share Jesus with them, and all of that, cherimil, but institutional is a radical Islam is in Sharia law, and it is not good.
Speaker 1:Whereas when you visit Israel, it is good. It is good. It's not perfect, but it is good. So even if I wasn't a Christian, I would I would make an argument for loving Israel, for supporting Israel, and and advocating for Israel.
Speaker 2:Yes. It's powerful. And so I believe this conversation is so important. I I received a a text from someone who just had questions about, you know, and it was a young one of our young adults had questions about Israel and was talking about that passage that's quoted and we've quoted that those who bless Israel are blessed. Those who curse Israel will be cursed.
Speaker 2:And they began to talk about, well, since Israel became a modern nation again in nineteen forties was it 1948?
Speaker 1:1948.
Speaker 2:When they became a modern Israel, or modern country again, and we partnered with them. I mean, how blessed are we as a nation? Look at our abortion rates. Look at our Yeah. The transgender breakout.
Speaker 2:Look at how we
Speaker 1:Great.
Speaker 2:Hate one another. And and these are great questions, but what hit me and what struck me about this real question is that so interesting that this particular, you know, social media person
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Was pointing to the Jews and to the Israelites as the reason for our issues in America.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:When every one of those things come from the heart of man. Yes. And so when we follow our own way, we're following our own demise. That has nothing to do with another nation or God's people or God's Yeah. You know, or Israel.
Speaker 1:Well, no. I think I could really make a case that we in America have been blessed. Yes. I think you're you're choosing the worst parts of America saying we're cursed.
Speaker 2:So good.
Speaker 1:And I could point out the best parts of America, and I could show you how we're blessed. And so I think that that's a tough, it's just not a straight line from one to the next. I could easily make the other case, and I could ignore all the curse of what's happening in real, but this is a big nation. This is a complicated nation, and there's a lot of places where we dishonor the name of God, but we do it because we do it. We do it because we elect the wrong politicians.
Speaker 1:We do it because we ourselves are not watchmen on the wall. But with that said, I will bless those who bless you. I do believe that those words hold for today.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:I believe that they do, but I hope that I've made an argument that even if you didn't believe that those words hold for today, and I do believe they do, I believe that we can, again, summarize it by saying, hey, this is a place that will preserve our Christian heritage sites. They will be good stewards of a land that we love, that they hold a land that will one day be where Christ comes back, and we wanna cherish that land. We don't wanna turn it over to people that will be worse stewards of that land with less freedom. And I believe that we share a Judeo Christian ethic that has provided freedom for the world. Again, not perfect, not flawless, but so good, so good.
Speaker 1:With that said, and then finally, that that land could remain open and free for the gospel of Jesus Christ. That there is a remnant there. How would that remnant be treated if it was just taken over by the enemies that surround Israel? And then the last thing I'd say is, you know, it's stolen land, it's not, that's not true either. In 1948, the United Nations gave the land to Israel as a homeland, 75, 25.
Speaker 1:75% they gave to the current, what you call current day Palestinians, and 25 to Israel, and any land that Israel has today, and by the way, the Palestinians have rejected land, they've rejected peace, even Bill Clinton, who I don't share a lot of commonality with, but Bill Clinton offered peace, and the Palestinians rejected it time after time after time, and any land that Israel is on today has, after they were attacked, they won that land. So it was won justly. And it's important to remember it wasn't stolen, it was given. All that, these are reasons, even if you're not a Christian, to believe that there's something special about that place. There's a reason to defend it.
Speaker 1:There's a reason to love it. But as a Christian, I believe we should pray for the peace of Jerusalem.
Speaker 2:We should.
Speaker 1:I believe we should take seriously the original covenant and the blessing that God put on them. And I can't wait to take you to Israel, and then you'll see for yourself how special place that it is.
Speaker 2:So good.
Speaker 1:So this is The Overflow. Thanks for joining us on The Overflow and we'll dive into more. Maybe we'll even take this topic at a more detailed level, in the future. But thanks for joining us. We'll see you next time.