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A show about cameras, creativity, and the weird shit your brains do while you're trying to make something.
Together, we're exploring photography for all levels — asking the silly questions, sharing the expert knowledge, and digging into what it actually takes to grow as a human being and as an artist.
Ep 9 The Trap of the Hot Take
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[00:00:00] Introduction
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Casey (she/her): You don't have to monetize it
And if you're gonna turn it into a
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her): go learn your fucking foundations so that you can take good stuff worth the money you're charging
Amy (she/her): your hot take is you don't have to monetize. My hot take is don't you dare fucking monetize until you know how to shoot in manual exposure.
Amy (she/her): So today's episode's gonna be a little bit different. Um, we've kind of been good for two ADHD people at least, staying on topic with what we've talked about for the first eight episodes. Um, today is gonna be, gonna jump around a bit. No, not a bit. It's gonna jump around a lot.
And, um, we've kind of avoided the hot takes angle because it's overdone we certainly didn't wanna make a show that was all hot takes. But today's gonna be hot takes because I have a list
and Casey, I'm sure you've got your own ideas about what some of the hot takes, especially from the beginner perspective,
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): might be, so
Casey (she/her): Yep, exactly. And we have not shared our hot takes with each other yet. I mean, I know some of Amy's
Amy (she/her): No
Casey (she/her): general conversation, so I'm excited for this episode 'cause we're genuinely like, let's see how each other responds to some of these."
Amy (she/her): We'll see how it goes. We might never do it again, but...
All right.
[00:01:50] Back Button Focus Isn't Magic
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Amy (she/her): So one of the things I see in photography forums, whether it's, you know, a proper forum or whether it's a Facebook group or thread, a comment thread, um, is a beginner photographer who is struggling with, um, getting sharp photos and says, "How do I make my photos better?
how do I get my focus sharper?" And inevitably they say, "Oh, use back button focus." And then that, and that's all they say.
Casey (she/her): Ja
Amy (she/her): Or, "Use back button focus, it's magical," or, "It changed my life. I can shoot everything and it's perfectly sharp now." And I remember as a beginner being really curious about this because I- hey, if you can give me a magic pill that's gonna make my photos sharper, I'm all about that.
I
Casey (she/her): Hell yeah
Amy (she/her): d- there isn't one, but I'm like, "Okay, I'll check it out." So I... And, and what most intrigued me was that the way it was talked about was that something in the camera would, like, by using back button focus, somehow the camera became better at focusing. And so I'm, like, totally intrigued
I investigated it, tried it, realized that I've, the, uh, there is a, a, it's my, it's what I call my stupid human trick. So I'll, I'll show you my stupid human trick in a minute. And, and my stupid human trick won't let me use it. But there is nothing fundamentally about back button focus that makes the photo sharper.
Casey (she/her): Okay
Amy (she/her): It doesn't change the programming. It's not a m- it's not, you know, focusing faster. It is a different way to activate your focus or to tell the camera to stop focusing. You can set it up a couple different ways.
Casey (she/her): Okay
Amy (she/her): But it's not about the camera being better and optimized for f- better focus.
It's about you, the photographer, being optimized for better focus.
Casey (she/her): Okay
Amy (she/her): down to some people, the mechanics of back button focus work better for them, and they can therefore get sharper pictures because everything is working better together.
Casey (she/her): Right
Amy (she/her): that's not how it gets talked about. It gets talked about as the magic pill that is gonna make your photos sharper, and it's literally nothing about the camera.
I shoot shutter button focus.
Casey (she/her): Okay
Amy (she/her): So I half-press the shutter To activate the focus system. So then the camera is tracking the thing that it's supposed to. And then I complete the press, so that it takes the photos.
Back button focus takes that and separates it into two different buttons. So you use your thumb and you activate the focus, and then your finger is doing the shutter. So here's my stupid human trick. So if I bend my forefinger, my shutter button finger, nothing else moves. None of my other fingers bend.
If I bend my ... Let me do it this way.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): If I bend my thumb, this finger, I'm not bend- bending this intentionally.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): Like, there is something in here that is connected. So if I hold this finger and I try and bend my thumb, I can't.
Casey (she/her): All right
Amy (she/her): I, it's, uh, like I said, stupid human trick.
Do you have the same one?
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): if I use the back button focus button, I, and my f- shutter button finger is on the shutter, pressing this is gonna cause this to go.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): So it physically doesn't work for me. It is a problem. And I couldn't ... The first time I tried it, I was just out, uh, doing some birds or something.
And I tried it, and I'm like, "Why can I not make this work?" And then I realized what was going on, that I, I was pressing the shutter button at the same time because that's how my thumb and forefinger are connected.
Casey (she/her): Right
Amy (she/her): it, it doesn't go the other way. It's just the, but it's the thumb,
back button focus doesn't work for me because the mechanics don't work. But some people, they can ... That works great for them.
Casey (she/her): I'm glad this one came up because I recently kind of fell down a back button focus rabbit hole and I had been meaning to ask you about that because I'm looking at this I'm like there's no way that the camera's doing anything different internally Like you're describing is what Like when I watch people like I read this in the comment section like Oh my gosh this is lifechanging and it changed my photography forever And they're like No no no but the If you use a back button then the focus does this instead of that And I'm like that's what it
Amy (she/her): No. No.
Casey (she/her): the It's That's what a half
Amy (she/her): Yes.
Casey (she/her): And so I like I was like am I or do I not understand what's
Amy (she/her): No
Casey (she/her): so glad this came up cause I have seen this conversation and yeah people talk about it like the camera operates differently I'm like there's
Amy (she/her): Men
Casey (she/her): that makes
Amy (she/her): it
Casey (she/her): it sounds I didn't switch it and try yet cause I've been wanting to
Amy (she/her): Okay.
Casey (she/her): because it sounds to me it feels awkward to do in terms of same Like my stupid human trick m isn't quite as dramatic as yours so I don't think I would have that structural problem But the w just the hold on the camera I don't
Amy (she/her): Yes
Casey (she/her): big hands I just feel like it would be so uncomfortable to hold my hand and have to press with two different fingers that are on like opposite sides of the
Amy (she/her): Yes.
Casey (she/her): That sounds so
Amy (she/her): yeah, I
Casey (she/her): and awkward for me
Amy (she/her): Right. So the mechanics of it, for me, In order for me to reach those buttons and operate them the way I would need to operate them, I'm cranking my wrist around. I wish I had a camera, actually.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): to crank my wrist around. So the ergonomics of it, for me, are really bad. Like, I will end up with a sore wrist. Now, so the only thing that you're... The camera does operate differently, but it's simply that you've decoupled two operations. Instead of having two operations on one button, you have two operations, one assigned to e- to, to two different buttons.
And for me, I also think that that's inefficient because I am working with things that are moving so fast, if, if I have to think about operating two fingers,
Casey (she/her): Right
Amy (she/her): Like when I sit down to use one of my photographers at an agility trial where, like, they just need to run to the bathroom and I'm just, you know, gonna shoot for them, generally
I won't bring my own camera. I'll just slide into their seat, take over, and, and I... They have to... They know now they have to tell me, 'cause I do have a few that are back button focus. They remind me. They're like, "I'm back button focus." I'm like, "And, and tell me which button it is," 'cause you can assign it to a variety of different buttons.
You can also assign it on some cameras that have buttons in the front. So I have done something with DSLRs. I haven't needed it with mirrorless. But you can... Like, I would assign some things on the front to the buttons on the front that I would use for some shots of a course and not for others, and so I could toggle them on and off.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): that has some use, but again, it doesn't give you sharper photos because the camera's better. It gives you sharper photos because it works better for you mechanically.
Casey (she/her): Something in the mechanics
Amy (she/her): this is... Yes, this has always bothered me so much how it gets billed to beginner photographers, because it does not get explained and it gets over-hyped and, and, and just like the technical stuff, those of us who are shutter button focus people get shamed or told we're doing it wrong, and we can't possibly do, you know, wildlife with shutter button focus.
I'm sorry. I will put my 25 years of shutter button focus up against any back button focus shooter out there. Again, I'll put my email in the notes. Bring it on.
Casey (she/her): Right Yeah Okay Woo
Amy (she/her): So
Casey (she/her): the Yeah I have seen
Amy (she/her): yeah.
Casey (she/her): and the back button focus people are intense and I'm like the math wasn't mathing for me and I'm like I mean if it's gonna give me better work but then I'm like the logistics of like the h the hand grip of it and then the way that I my camera I'm like there's times where like I don't know if I can get thumb on the back of like in I can't get two fingers in two place and then like rotate my camera this direction So like how the hell do I shoot Like you know
Amy (she/her): Yeah.
Casey (she/her): one of those funny things where I'm
Amy (she/her): Yeah.
Casey (she/her): all this
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her): of like if there's something better about it I'm willing to learn because I want to use my tool to the best of its ability But I have I could not figure out
Amy (she/her): No.
Casey (she/her): why the mechanical
Amy (she/her): about...
Casey (she/her): interior function would be different Yeah okay
Amy (she/her): Mm-mm.
Casey (she/her): and like
Amy (she/her): No
Casey (she/her): if Try it see if it feels comfortable for you If it if it works great But if it doesn't okay
Amy (she/her): Right. It's not a religion. You don't have to convert all of us to being back button focus. The reason why it's a, it's an option, the reason why you can change the function of buttons is so we all can customize it the way we want. I I will watch videos of photographers who have customized, you know, they've got triple back button focus, like for this instance I use this button, and this b- instance I use this button.
And I'm like, my brain doesn't work that way. If I have a bird suddenly taking off or, or whatever the scenario is that something's happening really fast, I need to have a default button that I hit that I don't have to think about.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): I can't build up the muscle memory for four different buttons for different kinds of focus and tracking.
I can't. I just... That's ... I don't see the point in that. I can do everything I wanna do with shutter button, both activating and taking the photo with one button. That,
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): that to me seems the most logical.
Casey (she/her): It makes the most sense to me
Amy (she/her): yeah.
Casey (she/her): Yep
Amy (she/her): I won't try to convince anybody that they shouldn't be using back button focus. I will explain to them,
I will not evangelize about shutter button focus other than on my own podcast, evidently.
Casey (she/her): Well that's this is why you have your own podcast is so that you
Amy (she/her): Yes. Yes, exactly. Okay.
Casey (she/her): Okay
Amy (she/her): Okay
Do you have one or do you wanna, you want me to go do another one?
Casey (she/her): I can go. We can go back
Amy (she/her): Okay.
Casey (she/her): Um,
Amy (she/her): Okay
[00:12:09] Is Editing Cheating?
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Casey (she/her): one kind of goes along... Well, it's editing related. It's the idea that editing is cheating, that, like, real photographers
Amy (she/her): Oh
Casey (she/her): straight out of camera. And I think, again, mine are coming from the angle of a beginner, is I have had some of my own feelings about this, and then I see this, like, conversation that, like, well, you should just be able to shoot perfectly and editing is cheating. And I disagree. I think editing is a skill, and there's a balance between knowing how to shoot, knowing how to edit, but it's not all or nothing, one or the other.
Amy (she/her): Right.
to make a blanket statement of you should always, use your images straight out of camera or you should always edit, that's not helpful. What's your... Give me more, give me more of your hot take
Casey (she/her): Okay. I think for me the hot take starts to fall into the realm of I think we've started relying too heavily on editing, especially with presets. And I think a- I think especially beginners kind of get preyed on that like, "Oh, you just need to buy this like $200 preset package, and you'll look like a professional." And so there's this like pressure to skip learning composition and skip learning how the camera works and like the technique in order to just jump into like, "Oh, you can just fix that in post. Oh, just slap a preset on it." And like
Amy (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Casey (she/her): I've even seen that in like comment sections like critiquing people's photos and that like it's, "Oh, they just slapped a preset on this."
I'm like, no, like it's, it's a good photo before the preset. The preset like the, the edits just like enhance it. And so I think it's one of those like it's a disservice to everybody to say that editing is cheating, I think there is a wave, a genre, a group that rely too heavily on editing to the detriment of especially beginner photographers in learning the basics.
Amy (she/her): Yeah,
I have never found a preset pack yet that I like.
I have bought, I have fallen for that trap.
Casey (she/her): Yep.
Amy (she/her): I, you know, I have some, and I, I, I am hopeful every time.
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): and I have finally gotten to the point where I'm like, "Remember this, it never works. It's never gonna look the way it is in the sample photos." Putting a per- preset, whether the, the photographer would admit it or not, they're tuned to the way that photographer works and the style of that photographer. So if I'm gonna, if I'm expecting to slap it onto my photo and suddenly look like, you know, photographer John Smith over there, uh, it's not gonna happen because I don't shoot like John Smith.
I don't, I hope there's no photographer John Smith, 'cause I'm not pointing my fingers at anybody in particular.
Casey (she/her): is one out there,
That's been my experience is like I, I don't like how some presets look. Like there's just my own personal tastes of it. But then like when I have played with them, like my base the lighting, whatever, it doesn't match what the preset is tweaking and it looks really bad.
And also with this, I'm gonna add another layer to this. I also see a lot of people where think they're slapping really dramatic, I'll say, dramatic presets
Amy (she/her): Yes
Casey (she/her): or edits onto things and calling it artistic when it in reality is still just shitty photography. Maybe that's the hot
Amy (she/her): That seems like a whole new hot take which we can certainly explore.
[00:15:43] Technique vs. Artistry
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Amy (she/her): this actually leads to m- one of mine, so should we just transition into one of mine in talking about technique versus artistry?
Casey (she/her): Yeah, yeah. Perfect.
Amy (she/her): okay. you as an individual photographer are allowed to call your work artistic if, if you consider it that.
Um,
Casey (she/her): Yes
Amy (she/her): if, if you take a shitty photo and slap a preset on it and call it artistic, I'm not gonna argue with you, because art is subjective, Now,
Casey (she/her): Yes
Amy (she/her): my, my beef with this whole thing is that technique gets looked down on. At least I have felt like there are times where I get looked down on because I emphasize the technical so much.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): my feeling is that nobody says, "Oh, you're too artistic." But I absolutely have been told that I am too technical,
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): that is a ... I don't understand it, is kind of, that's the hot take part of it, I guess, is I don't understand why, what makes my emphasis on the technical side, my enjoyment of the technical side, less valid than someone who enjoys the, the artistic side?
That isn't to say I'm not artistic. I just express it differently. So, and then it becomes my version of expressing my artistic view is the same as the person who has what I would call a shitty photo and slap a preset on it. We're both expressing our, our artistic side in different ways.
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): that's my hot take.
Casey (she/her): Yes. And I 100% agree with that thing of like focus is on technique which creates your art and the style of art-
that is interesting. I have not been, like, in photography long enough to hear those kinds of comments, and so that's interesting that you're getting kind of like t- like beat up for the focus on technique, which I feel like that should be foundational. Like,
Amy (she/her): Right.
Casey (she/her): you should
Amy (she/her): Like, nobody tells a, a beginner chef that they should not learn knife skills.
Casey (she/her): No.
Amy (she/her): Nobody tells a writer that they should not learn grammar and, and vocabulary. Like, those are the foundational skills of a craft.
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): so the foundational skills of the photography craft, yeah
Casey (she/her): And sometimes you learn the rules to break them. Like we've talked about
Amy (she/her): Yes
Casey (she/her): of like your group calls of like understanding composition or like making a choice that like technically this breaks the rules, but I like the tension that it creates or whatever.
but like if you don't know what you're doing if you're shooting in auto and using a preset that somebody else created and sold you, where are you learning how to do this art?
Amy (she/her): Right
I think when it comes to this idea of the technical versus the artistic, I'm, I'm speaking to the more narrow group of photographers that don't understand why their photos aren't where they want them to be and do wanna improve.
Casey (she/her): when I'm thinking about this, I'm also coming from the angle of, like, photographers who are being paid. Like, one of the examples I saw of this was somebody who posted photos that they had done for a wedding, that they got paid to do for a wedding. And if I were that bride, I would've been devastated, because they were, like, very blurry and they had lots of, like, post-processing.
They were very art- were very artistic.
I don't think in 20 years, I would look back on them as fondly. Whereas, like, my personal wedding photos are, like, very classical, and so, like, I think regardless of time passing, I will still always see my photos a certain way.
And so, uh, like, I think about that. Like, if you are a hobbyist you are doing this for yourself, for your friends, for your family, for fun, I don't... And you are happy with what you get out of auto,
Amy (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Casey (she/her): shoot auto. do what makes you happy.
But if you're charging people money or you have
Amy (she/her): Yes.
Casey (she/her): in growing and really learning more about photography, then we gotta get...
Yeah, then that thing of technique, like, you've, you've gotta understand some rules and some basics and yeah.
Amy (she/her): Yeah.
okay, so that was mine, so we're back to you. I
Casey (she/her): Okay.
[00:20:07] Stop Learning From Everybody
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Casey (she/her): I don't know how much of a hot take this is, but this is a thing I need to say.
Amy (she/her): Are we bad at hot takes?
Casey (she/her): We might be bad at hot takes.
Amy (she/her): Okay
Casey (she/her): of this is... I'm gonna say some of this, I think, like, it's a little bit of it's hard for me to have a hot take on some of these 'cause I'm still new to a lot of this, so, like, I, don't know some of this stuff. But a h- okay, I think this is a hot take in the sense that something I see a lot of beginners do, guilty of it myself, raise my hand here, is go watch all of the YouTube tutorials from tons of different photographers and then get frustrated and confused and put the camera down and walk away, is stop trying to learn from everybody. I've seen
Amy (she/her): Yes
Casey (she/her): across a variety of industries. I mean, this isn't just a photography thing. This is a beginner thing. Stop advice from everybody. Do not fucking go in a Facebook group and say, do you think of my photo?" I'm a beginner, this is the first time I've ever taken photos. 'Cause you are gonna get like an onslaught of stuff that is going to make you feel bad about yourself, that's gonna make you confused, I have a couple of YouTube channels that I have decided I like how they talk about photography. I don't even know if they're right, I like their work, I like their style, and I like how they talk about stuff. And so those are the channels I watch, and I don't go to other channels for information, or I bother Amy most often. Um,
Amy (she/her): Bring it on.
Casey (she/her): yeah.
Amy (she/her): I love it.
Casey (she/her): my
Amy (she/her): Yes
Casey (she/her): Amy, but then also sometimes like going down the YouTube rabbit hole. But I think that's my, my thing In the information age, people go the wrong direction with that, and we get too much information to a point that it becomes detrimental to the beginner.
And so pick one, learn one or two places to learn and stay there for a minute
Amy (she/her): Well, and I think this applies, I think the algorithms of all of the social media places have made this worse because they latch onto, "Oh, you're interested in learning photography. Well, let me show you this person and let me show you this person and let me show you this person." This happens to me with social media marketing stuff.
I find my algorithm stuffed with different people that are selling me the next big marketing scheme, strategy, program, framework, whatever. And I'm like, "Ooh, that sounds good." And then I'm like, "Oh, stop. Stop, stop. You
Casey (she/her): Ja.
Amy (she/her): don't need another person coming along selling you a framework because you haven't even implemented the fucking one that you have to begin with."
So,
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): right?
Casey (she/her): Well, and I, and I was just gonna say, as you were saying that, what popped in my brain is, like, we get so busy consuming tips, looking for, like, the perfect tip that will make us take amazing bird photos of going out and just taking a bunch of fucking bird photos.
I'm constantly assessing my own stuff, but I only have stuff to assess because I've gone out and taken photos of a couple birds and a chipmunk in my yard.
Amy (she/her): I will say that the whole, for me, 'cause social media is such a struggle, but, um, I will say that it is starting to make a little more sense now because now I've actually started posting some shit, and, you know, now, now the, there's the, all the feedback of, "Your views are up 1,000%," and I'm like, "This sounds like bullshit."
But at least...
it is data that, that is, that now exists and has proven to be slightly motivational. Slightly.
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): Anyway, that's s- side tangent. So maybe that's another hot take is, uh, social media marketing is, is bullshit and it's a game and I hate it, but I'm learning to play it anyway, so.
Casey (she/her): Yes
Amy (she/her): I think it's really good advice to stick with, you know, just a few sources of information, to learn a thing. every photographer has a slightly different take on it.
So even if you're getting good advice from everybody, you know, you've picked out 10 photographers and you're getting good advice from all 10, they're still gonna conflict. They're still not gonna give you a cohesive sense of what it takes to get better, because you're gonna be following all those little rabbit trails, uh, from each of them and, and who knows where you're gonna end up.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): um, you know, give each one of them a little bit of time, make sure it is or isn't working for you, and then if you need to switch to somebody else to learn from, that's, that's totally fine. But not all at once.
Casey (she/her): when I think about like bird stuff, I'm like, "Okay, whose, whose photos do I like?" Like, I'm not even looking for the right, I'm gonna say big air quotes there, the like the right person to learn from, is like this is who I'm watching right now. I don't,
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her): know. We'll find out. Someday I'll quote something that they said to Amy, and she'll tell me that I'm wrong, and stop watching them and I'll find someone else.
[00:24:51] Bokeh, Blur, and Pop
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Amy (she/her): My hot take is the word bokeh and how it's used. And so I even wrote it out on a piece of pa- on a Post-It just so we can be clear here. B-O-K-E-H. I've heard it pronounced bokeh, and I've heard it pronounced bokeh. And I don't know which is right.
Casey, Do you know what it is? What-
Casey (she/her): I've heard you bitch about how people use the word. Um, I don't, I don't quite know what it is. I thought it was just, like, when the background is out of focus compared to, like, the main subject, but I realize it's, like,
Amy (she/her): Okay.
Casey (she/her): not that. I'm not
Amy (she/her): Right
Casey (she/her): beyond that
Amy (she/her): So it is and it isn't about what the background looks like. So there are two words that are used interchangeably, bokeh and blur, and they get used as if they are the same thing, but they're not the same thing. So bokeh is a quality of the blur of the background. People will say, "I, I want more bokeh in the background."
And I'm like, "Unless you are replacing your lens and getting one that has a higher quality bokeh you can't have more bokeh." You can have better bokeh or worse bokeh, and you can have more blur or less blur. So they get used interchangeably, but they're absolutely not the same thing.
I feel like it gets used because it, people think it makes them sound like they know more.
And to me, it makes it sound like you know less. So
Casey (she/her): Okay.
Amy (she/her): use blur, not bokeh.
Casey (she/her): Right. Okay. makes sense. Yeah, and I feel like what I have seen and heard, I get the sense that people are using it wrong, I've noticed, in Lightroom there is a blur slider, and there is a bokeh thing down at the bottom, and I, like, if we have both of them, that would imply to me that they are doing different things, that they are
Amy (she/her): For different things, yeah.
Casey (she/her): features.
Yeah. So,
Amy (she/her): Yes. Yes.
Casey (she/her): Good to know.
I'm guessing there's a lot of those words that people, misuse in an effort to sound smarter. I saw a whole fight in a Threads comment section. Um, if you ever need me and you can't find me, I'm somewhere in a Threads comment section. and it was all about the, the use of, the term raw They were arguing, raw is not a file type, and like, my God, it was a whole thing And at the end of it, it all just sounded utterly pedantic and ridiculous of, like,
Amy (she/her): Sounds like fun.
Casey (she/her): Right? almost sent you that thread, of people, like, intentionally missing the point of, like, how raw was being used in the original context versus, like, the entire comment section, is like...
I feel like there's probably a lot of that kind of stuff where people cling to their use of the word
Amy (she/her): Correct. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I'm sure somebody would be willing to fight me on the whole bokeh blur thing, for sure. But
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): to me, m- i- in my brain, they are two different things, and when you say you want more bokeh in the background, I just... I'm gonna look at you like you're an idiot. So yeah, consider it your warning.
Casey (she/her): Amy's email will be in the show notes so you can let her know
Amy (she/her): yes. Yes. Bring it on.
Casey (she/her): Um, should I do another quick, another word one quick?
Yeah
Amy (she/her): So when people says, "Oh, my photo needs more pop,"
I'm like, there's no pop slider in Lightroom.
So pop doesn't tell me what you want more of. It just is a trendy word that people use to talk about something. So what do you think of when you hear the word pop in photos? I want my photo to have more pop. What does that mean to you?
Casey (she/her): To me that immediately jumps to I need the context of the photo Do you need a pop of light Do you need the dog to pop from the background Do you need a pop of energy cause the dog is like like just sitting there and boring Like I the context of a given photo Here's a photo it needs more pop I think I would be able to guess what they're trying to say But the bigger
Amy (she/her): Okay
Casey (she/her): who fucking
Amy (she/her): Yeah.
when I'm trying to get students to work through what does that mean, how does that translate to actually doing something to the photo, what does that mean?
Casey (she/her): mean
Amy (she/her): are you going to enhance? What are you gonna change about the photo that will create the effect you are looking for? Because again, there is no pop slider in Lightroom. So I try to get them to talk through what, what character- what are the characteristics of pop
Casey (she/her): That makes sense cause I think if I think of how I would use the word I would say Oh I need more pop And you'd go What do you mean I'd be like Oh I want more light here or I feel like there's not enough dep Like I would be able to immediately
Amy (she/her): Yes.
Casey (she/her): what I'm trying to say but I just use pop because it's like a fast way to say I need more meh But yeah I I can see
Amy (she/her): B-
Casey (she/her): people saying that but then not knowing to and that would be frustrating cause yeah there's no pop slider I can't just it pop
Amy (she/her): Like, I don't know what you're talking about. I,
I
I am very literal. You're gonna have to tell me what pop means to you before I can help you figure out how to change your your photo, how, what to do differently, what to add, subtract, whatever.
Casey (she/her): Yeah Yep Yeah
I'm now gonna have to just show up to every call and just ask how I make this photo pop You're gonna hate me now
Amy (she/her): I will. I will totally, I will totally hate you for that.
Casey (she/her): Banned from your calls cause every time I just
Amy (she/her): Right
Casey (she/her): make a photo pop if somebody says I need to make this pop
That can mean so many things and this is something I'm learning Like every single one of your calls I'm on I learn I learn more about composition And like you use the word you know you're like Oh you're creating tension in the photo or like This creates you know an awkward tension This creates like a really like you know inviting to look
Amy (she/her): Flow
Casey (she/her): flow Yeah like a and so like it's interesting that need to understand the fundamentals to understand how to create those things So just to like bring that back around of like why technique is important and like understanding the language because
Amy (she/her): Yeah.
Casey (she/her): can mean a million things if you can't articulate and you don't know This is why I love looking at other people's photos and like going to your calls is seeing the different masking and like cropping it different I'm like Oh my Even one of my photos with my little dog Wiley and you shifted the crop to like basically the opposite of what I had done and I'm like I don't know why but that feels better to look at than what I had originally created Now
Amy (she/her): Yeah that is one of the hardest things that I struggle with when I'm working with people, is if you can't access that feeling that you're getting from a photo, it becomes really hard to try and explain what it is.
Because cropping for me is very natural, like very much of a gut thing. I don't think about it a lot. learning to teach it is an adventure all in itself, but, um, it's been, it's, it's fun. But at some point I get to a point where I just can't explain it any other way, and I'm like,
Casey (she/her): Right
Amy (she/her): "This just feels better
Casey (she/her): Right
Amy (she/her): than this one."
Casey (she/her): Like
Amy (she/her): So it's a vibe
Casey (she/her): I went back and reedited that photo of myself again after that call I was looking at it I'm like I don't know why Well I do know why actually I and I you said it on the call like the one version like felt very crowded and so when I like shifted where the crop was it like took the pressure off the dog and the dog popped a little more Uh sorry
Amy (she/her): Oh, you're gonna start now. Great.
Casey (she/her): I had to Um but
Amy (she/her): Do we need little counter now? Do we need a counter up in the corner for the YouTube to go one, two, three... I don't know what we're up to at this point. That, that's the first intentional one where you're poking at me, so okay.
Casey (she/her): Game on Yeah But yeah no it is that it it is interesting But like and I know there's a technical element to that and it's not a lesson I've directly learned from you but like seeing these editing and like hearing you talk through why something's cropped this way versus that way putting together this technical information which will then serve my artistic skills in future shoots
Amy (she/her): Yes. Yeah, yeah. And really, it's all psychology in terms of the composition and the, the post-processing. It all comes down to the psychology of how we react to things that we see. Um, and that's a way longer conversation and not a hot take, so
Casey (she/her): No
Amy (she/her): we're gonna skip that for now. If you wanna know more about that, you come and join my membership, and then we will talk about that, because
Casey (she/her): Yes It's
Amy (she/her): love talking about the psychology of it.
So yeah, it's very good stuff.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
[00:33:58] The Pressure to Find Your Style
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Amy (she/her): Okay, your turn
Casey (she/her): Okay let's see here This is something we've touched on in a previous episode and again not necessarily I I think my hot take is that we need to stop putting this piece of information on beginners There's a lot of pressure to find your style looking at a lot of professional photographers people who are getting paid to do this you do develop a sense of style Like look through a gallery of a particular wildlife photographer or of someone like the pet portraits that I follow there is a vibe But there's so much pressure to like figure out your style but you don't know the techniques you don't know the industry you don't know your camera you don't know what you like you don't know what it's like to like I think of a wildlife photographer I follow on social media He's like Yeah I sat in the river for three fucking hours to get this photo I will never care about getting a picture of a grizzly bear enough to sit in a river for three hours No thank you No sir Never gonna be
Amy (she/her): say that now. You say that now.
Casey (she/her): Fair Um
Amy (she/her): We just need to go e- to Alaska and photograph bears, and you might change your mind.
Casey (she/her): probably changed my mind this pressure to have a style and to figure it out
Amy (she/her): yeah
Casey (she/her): and I think also then there there's like other pressure to like not change your style or not experiment outside of your style that is shoehorning a lot of beginners before they have any chance to even explore as a whole
Amy (she/her): Mm-hmm. Yeah. That, that's totally true, and I remember feeling that pressure ba- even back when I was starting. Um, not so much with the agility photography, but in, in, you know, what kind of a photographer do I wanna be, and what do I want my style to be? And I still, to this day, I'm sorry, I can't define my style.
And if you can't, if you look at a photo and you know it's mine or you don't know it's mine, I don't really give a fuck, to be honest. So some people, to some people it matters more.
Casey (she/her): Yes
Amy (she/her): they need that external validation, and, and that's fine.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): I don't care if you can pick my photo out of a lineup.
I really don't
Casey (she/her): do think there are certain industries where a style can be beneficial I think of like the wedding industry like I picked my wedding photographer because there's a style to all of his his work and I loved that style when I look at like pet portrait photography my current obsession like there are so many styles of like pet portrait photography that I think in that realm it will be very beneficial to me to find a style and lean into that style especially if I'm going to market it and get paid for it But as a wildlife photographer as a general photographer as a beginner photographer as someone who's doing headshots family pho like an element where it doesn't matter And also something you said also like what you take pictures of cause I already feel like I have to partly there's only so many hours in the day but like I have to narrow down that's rude what I'm taking pictures of And so like letting have that space to try anything and everything that they seem interested in and rule it out rule it in
Amy (she/her): Yeah And
Casey (she/her): It's just
Amy (she/her): I did that. I did that back when I was starting out. You know, I had the dog stuff and that was kind of s- sort of, sort of starting to take off. But, you know, there was downtime and, and so I thought, "Oh, I can, I can do senior portraits and families." And I got asked to do a wedding by, um, by an agility competitor that I knew well, and she's like, "Oh, I don't trust anybody else to do it."
I'm like, "I have never done a wedding." "Oh no, you'll
Casey (she/her): I would
Amy (she/her): you'll do great." And I, I to this day, I mean, they were, they were sufficient. They, I, I hope.
Casey (she/her): not the word I want on my wedding photos
Amy (she/her): And, and, and
Casey (she/her): No
Amy (she/her): and the funny thing is she eventually did divorce the guy and has remarried, and I did not do the second wedding thankfully. But I was so uncomfortable.
I mean, I was so stressed out about that. I brought my mom along to help me because I knew I needed someone who could, you know, watch for the, the collar that was flipped up or the hair that needed to be rearranged or
Casey (she/her): Right
Amy (she/her): was my photo assistant. Um, and she did great because she has an eye for that stuff.
So I, but I was so stressed out. I,
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): just, I was worried about blowing out the whites on the wedding dress and then still getting detail in the blacks of the tuxedos, 'cause that's a thing.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): I mean, it was, it was not fun
Casey (she/her): sound so stressful to me Like I one genre that I know will never be on my list of things to do is weddings Like there is too much pressure to get things right
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her): on that day
I thought s I think some of it comes down to personality too Like part of what I loved about like my wedding photographer it it him and his wife shoot together is like just interacting with them My husband is the most like awkward human on camera You tell you know you get out a camera and he just like doesn't know what to do with his himself And like our photographer handled it and our photos even our engagement photos feel very natural and very much our personality That's a skill in and of itself Like you work with dogs I wanna work with dogs Like to be able to manage dogs you don't know that's a skill in and of itself
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her): just your ability to take those photos but also like do you wanna sit in a river for three hours and freeze your tuchus off waiting for a bear to
Amy (she/her): Yes. Yes.
Casey (she/her): you wanna go to Alaska on a boat in February to
Amy (she/her): Yes.
Casey (she/her): You know and so
Amy (she/her): Do I wanna tell a family how to pose? No.
Casey (she/her): No
Amy (she/her): I don't
Casey (she/her): people in my picture Uh yeah exactly So having the space to explore that and having the permission to know that you don't wanna take family photos like you don't wanna take wildlife photos whatever it is that no I just I have no interest in that style So yeah
Amy (she/her): Yeah, I remember feeling the pressure of, "Oh, you're a photographer, so y- of course you can do, shoot anything." And I don't... For me, that is not true. I mean, yes, I was able to control my camera and do the things I needed to do to get wedding photos, and like I said, I think they were sufficient.
They were fine. Um but did I enjoy it? Was I good at it? No. Um, and so you don't have to be good at everything. I have a very, very narrow window of the things that I enjoy doing and I'm very good at. And you get me outside of that, including portraits and, and whether it's studio or, or not, I'm not good at that because it requires a level of me controlling the scene that I don't enjoy, and I'm,
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): I, could be better at it if I did it more, but I don't enjoy it.
I like agility because they're just, they know what they're supposed to do and I know how to get pictures of it.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): like wildlife because it's just g- you can't tell nature what to do.
Casey (she/her): No
Amy (she/her): she'll just give you the middle finger and, and and continue to do what she's doing. So I, and that's what I like. I don't like to try and control the scene.
I like to take pictures of what the scene as it's unfolding before me.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): and, and I used to feel bad about that. I used to feel like, oh, I should be able to do portraits and, um, I did... Oh my gosh, I had totally forgotten about that until I, we were talking now. Um, I did the church directory pictures one year for my church, like all the families.
Yes.
Casey (she/her): Oh I remember
Amy (she/her): And yes, that was me one time, and then I had to put the directory... I mean, I did it one, I did a lot of things once. I did a few senior portraits.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): a few horse shows and just didn't find traction in that area. So I've done a lot of little of things once or twice, and then I'm like, "Nope."
Casey (she/her): to try once
Amy (she/her): Yeah.
Casey (she/her): if you have the interest in trying then it's okay to say no and like you just said there is this like pressure or this expectation that because you have the camera you know how to take every style of photo with it and that doesn't have to be the case Yeah
Amy (she/her): You have a nice camera, can't you do this?
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): sure. I have my 600 millimeter lens on, so you go stand across the football field and I'll take your portrait.
Casey (she/her): Go
Amy (she/her): How about that?
Casey (she/her): backing up Keep backing up Keep
Amy (she/her): Keep going. Keep going. Hmm, little further. Little more.
Now we've lost the light. I'm sorry. We're done
Casey (she/her): We're done It's over
[00:43:09] Monetizing Too Soon
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Casey (she/her): Okay so followup to this idea is that just because you buy a nice camera and you start to tinker with it as a hobby do not have to turn it into a business And there are probably a lot of you that sh no I'm not gonna say that There's probably a lot of you that shouldn't turn
Amy (she/her): No, there we go. Go for it. Come on, we've gotta have some guts. Go for it. Say the, say the thing, Casey. Say the thing
Casey (she/her): I've seen a lot of people who not have turned it into a business or have turned it into a business too soon is
Amy (she/her): Yes
Casey (she/her): okay and I think I'm gonna hold the hand of especially my ADHD millennials who hobby hop and monetize everything I'm holding your hand is okay to not monetize a hobby It's okay to buy the fancy camera shoot auto It's okay to learn manual learn all the things take lots of amazing photos You don't have to monetize it You don't have to turn it
Amy (she/her): Yeah.
Casey (she/her): a business And if you're gonna turn it into a
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her): go learn your fucking foundations so that you can take good stuff worth the money you're charging
Amy (she/her): Yeah, yeah. So your hot take is you don't have to monetize. My hot take is don't you dare fucking monetize until you know how to shoot in manual exposure. and it doesn't mean you have to do it all the time, but if you do not understand shutter speed, aperture, ISO, and the menus in your camera, and what lenses you own and why you own them, oh, yeah, yeah.
That's, that would be my additional hot take on top of that. Yeah, you hit a nerve on that one.
Casey (she/her): right into something on that one I did I figured you would agree It's just been fascinating I have been digging through all sorts of websites of looking at styles looking at how others run their business Like this is uh I I have intentions of monetizing part of my photography habit here in the coming year and I'm trying to pace myself of like I need to make sure I have some foundational skills and the right equipment strobe lights to do what I wanna do and realizing I can't deliver what my expectation of my work would be what I have But I'm looking through other people's stuff and I'm like I might as well take my iPhone out and start charging for shit right now cause what do you mean you filled all your slots for your mini shoot and that's what you're delivering
Amy (she/her): Yeah. Yeah. What do you mean the black dog is a silhouette and you're wondering how much you should charge people for it?
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): I do feel like I need to own up to, I kind of came out of that. Like, the first agility trial I ever saw was the one I was shooting, and I came back day two and sold pictures.
I, it wasn't the first dog show. It wasn't, I,
Casey (she/her): Yes
Amy (she/her): wasn't my first experience at a show or taking pictures of dogs, so that, you know, at least that. But no, my first agility trial ever, I was there to take pictures to sell them to people. So I, I have to be, I have to be a little bit self-aware and there's a little
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): But maybe that's why I have such strong feelings about it too, is like, don't do what I did, and I'm here to tell you how to not do what I did. Like, I am willing to teach you what you need to know, but you've gotta take a, take a step back and say, "Okay, I'm not ready to, for primetime. I'm not ready to sell photos."
Yeah.
Casey (she/her): We all start somewhere and at some point you will be relatively new to the thing you're doing as you start to sell it Like that's how building a business works But there are so many people uh what I and like hmm I hate to like pick on a genre of humans here but I this so much that I feel like I'm gonna I'm gonna say it is I see a lot of these moms who get a camera and they start with pictures of their own kids in the backyard and then they take some pictures at a family function and now all of a sudden they're selling Santa sessions mini summer sessions mini f fall sessions on the back of a red pickup truck And it's such mediocre work It's like it's it's
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her): better than an iPhone which like iPhones are great quality photos anymore There's nothing it's just this like I don't know It's just frustrating to me and it would like also as somebody who like I part of our wedding budget was our photographer If I am spending money on memories I want a certain caliber there And so I see what other
Amy (she/her): You have high expectations.
Casey (she/her): and I'm disappointed for their clients for them I know that like in theory these people know what they're buying and like they volunteered to sign up for this and pay it Like
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her): Yeah like I don't know you don't have to monetize just cause you bought the camera andor spend more time doing shoots learning growing planning all the things before you start selling andor selling at like that price point
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Yeah. I mean, I sometimes will talk about how... 'Cause I work with a lot of people who are doing dog photography, um, s- dog sports in particular, and I'll, I'll make the analogy of it's like getting a puppy, a six-month-old puppy, and throwing it into an agility ring and expecting it to get your Mach, which is the highest, you know, highest level of award, on its first weekend.
you don't throw a, a brand-new puppy into a competition ring and expect good results. You train them, and you, you acclimate them, and you let them learn. You know, you learn a jump, and then you learn a tunnel, and then you learn an A-frame, and then you start with small sequences of jump, tunnel, jump.
You, it's this incremental improvement, and if you d- and we have to do that for ourselves. We have to give ourselves that same grace to, to learn and, and soak in all of the knowledge before we throw ourselves into the, you know, masters ring and expect to win the premier cup or something.
Casey (she/her): Yep
Amy (she/her): and I'm sure the same could be said, I know you did weightlifting, and you don't start out with 400 pounds.
Casey (she/her): Nope
Amy (she/her): I
Casey (she/her): It'll
Amy (she/her): can't lift that much, and
Casey (she/her): Yes
Amy (she/her): the same kinda thing.
Casey (she/her): Yeah Yeah exactly
Amy (she/her): You have to build up to it
Casey (she/her): the basics And I uh weightlifting's kind of a great great analogy Like not only do you have to build up the strength to do the different weights you hit a point where you will not continue to progress as a weightlifter if you do not learn the technique there are certain lifts that you're The the barbell's not moving because you're not moving it the right way And so like
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her): Now that you say that actually epiphany probably why I'm obsessed with photography because that's what I was obsessed with about weightlifting is there's a
Amy (she/her): Okay
Casey (she/her): lift that a lot of people hate cause it's a very technical lift and it's my favorite fucking thing on the planet because I've been doing it for a decade and I've gotten it right like times And it
Amy (she/her): Wow
Casey (she/her): magical When you hit The lift's called a snatch And so like when
Amy (she/her): Okay
Casey (she/her): a snatch you hit a snatch the right way it it's amazing And people hate it because
Amy (she/her): Okay
Casey (she/her): get it right and it feels awkward and clunky And like when you get I'm sure I don't know that I've quite hit it yet with photography but I'm sure there's those shots where like you're
Amy (she/her): Yep.
Casey (she/her): God all the things that I've been practicing all of the technique all of the waiting in blinds shit I finally got the shot But in
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her): all the time you've been shooting like how many shots do you have that are that magical And that is that accumulation of practice and
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her): and repetition that not enough people I think put into their photography
Amy (she/her): they wanna rush to making money or impressing people or whatever it is, and
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): take the time to just do it, so
Casey (she/her): Yep
Amy (she/her): for sure. That was a good one.
Casey (she/her): There
Amy (she/her): actually
Casey (she/her): my that was my hot
Amy (she/her): like we're getting better. We're getting better at hot takes
Casey (she/her): that's the only like hot take I have That's it
Amy (she/her): Uh, so okay. You got any more?
Casey (she/her): Um feel like my last two aren't good for hot takes so cause I don't have strong feelings about them and I know you're Yeah I don't I don't think they're worth doing
Amy (she/her): Okay. What are they? Just 'cause I'm curious
Casey (she/her): Yeah I knew you would ask that Um one is the idea
Amy (she/her): I,
Casey (she/her): like
Amy (she/her): you can't just
Casey (she/her): f I know I gotta fuck with you I did that on purpose I was like I'm just gonna see if I I'm gonna annoy her and not
Amy (she/her): You can't just...
Casey (she/her): No
Amy (she/her): I'm putting it in the pop counter even though you didn't use the word pop.
Casey (she/her): Fucking with Amy Counter
Um one of them is the the idea that flash ruins photos Like some of these were more like things that I think
Amy (she/her): Okay.
Casey (she/her): topics in the industry not necessarily my
Amy (she/her): Okay
Casey (she/her): So like flash ruins photo and that natural light is always superior um which I think is stupid
Amy (she/her): Preference. I think that's a preference.
Casey (she/her): yeah and I think I I did see like a whole Threads post where we You and I have talked about this I think off the podcast of like I saw somebody do a beach photo and then they're like Oh I just
Amy (she/her): Oh, yeah
Casey (she/her): family's face was like really dark They're like Oh I just fixed that in post And it's like yeah they look cut and paste on the background cause your lighting's all wrong Like
Amy (she/her): Yeah. Yeah.
Casey (she/her): and you won't have this problem
Amy (she/her): Right
Casey (she/her): Um that comment section was wild and it was all about like should you learn a flash or should you fix it in post Um and then the other one is the idea that like every portrait needs to be shot at like 12 18 Like bokeh
Amy (she/her): God, no
Casey (she/her): kind of that whole like more It's just to
Amy (she/her): Did you use bokeh to... Yeah. You did that one on purpose
Casey (she/her): Well but that's like the conversation I hear is that like
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her): more bokeh is better and all photog like all portraits should have lots of bokeh Like that's the context that I hear it
Amy (she/her): Oh my God. Yeah
Casey (she/her): with the words and
Amy (she/her): Yes. I mean, there are people that can do magical things with Flash, and I admire that and I am jealous of it, but I absolutely am never gonna do anything about it to m- to get to the point where I can do that. So I just stand back and admire and, and that's enough for me. So,
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): I think, I think, yeah, it comes down to the quality.
If you can tell that it was Flash and it's really bad implementation of it, then yeah. those kinds of hot takes, those kinds of things I have learned long ago just to walk away from, because I don't know enough to ha- to, to hold up my end of the conversation,
Casey (she/her): Right
Amy (she/her): I will just end up feeling angry because I don't know enough to hold up my end of the...
Even though I know it's wrong in some way, I don't know how to have that, that argument, but Yeah.
Casey (she/her): Yeah Yeah that's like I realized like some of my hot takes I was like these are more like not my personal hot take but things that I see are hot topics the comment
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Yeah
Casey (she/her): wild crazy
[00:54:35] Gatekeeping in Photography
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Amy (she/her): what about gatekeeping? That came up in one of our texts a couple days ago, and I said, "Hold that thought and bring it up on the podcast." So I don't,
Casey (she/her): yeah
Amy (she/her): I have no idea if that's, you know, a topic or not, but
Casey (she/her): I don't know that I have any like hot takes about gatekeeping but I feel like there's this funny thing that happens in like forums and comcomment sections where like somebody will ask for feedback or they'll share a photo and not even ask for feedback But like if you put a photo online photographers are gonna comment on it But people will like they'll say it sucks and then they won't say anything else And you're like Great it sucks Can you give me some tips And they're like No you have to figure it out There's this like weird And I I see this in like more industries than just photography but there's this weird thing where like some professionals don't wanna help beginners learn they will also go out of their way to like shit on beginners And so
Amy (she/her): Yeah.
Casey (she/her): okay like
Amy (she/her): Hmm
Casey (she/her): you want to continue the growth of this field of this industry of this style of art Or are you just in it for yourself And if you're just in it for yourself why are you interacting with people who aren't at your level And so I don't know if that's necessarily like gatekeeping as in like I'm not gonna tell you I've seen that with a few studio photographers who refuse to talk about how their lighting equipment is set up or like what their camera settings are which I have mixed feelings on because also like
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her): someone's camera settings doesn't solve the problem And so it feels gatekeepy but also I think it's in a sense that like what you're asking isn't the answer to your problem
Amy (she/her): Or it's b- it's, it's a personal boundary of I'm here to do business, or I'm in business and I sell this information in a course I offer.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): I know that that kind of stuff gets accused of being gatekeepy too, and I, I, I'm like, "Sorry, I have earned this knowledge, and if you want it from me, then you're gonna have to pay me money."
So um, I just tend to stay out of forums like that or, or stay out of the comment... I'll read stuff, and I, I may have an idea about how to fix your problem,
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): I have so often been, like, ignored, or told that, "No, that's not really the problem," it happens just often enough that I'm like, "Fine, you, you know, I'm
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): out."
Casey (she/her): And
Amy (she/her): So
Casey (she/her): a valid answer Like as an expert as a professional I think that's valid to just see and be like Mm nope This Like I do this with like fitness I end up on the fitness side of social media a lot This is another passion of mine And so like I'll see people ask about macros or about a workout or the mechanics on a movement and if there's already a bunch of comments I'm not saying anything even if all the comments are wrong Th the conversation has been had
Amy (she/her): Probably even more, even more so if all the comments are wrong. Mm-mm, not stepping in that one
Casey (she/her): and then end up being the one dogpiled I have done that enough times Fine whatever here's your You But like I will if there's if there's no other comments if they're not getting any feedback those are the ones I will sometimes just be like Hey here's my thoughts on that And then I
Amy (she/her): Yeah.
Casey (she/her): it But yeah no I've done that
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her): stuff where I'm just like Oh this comment section is horrendous and I'm just gonna shake my head and walk away Not worth it No
Amy (she/her): Yeah, yeah. Comment sections, I, they terrify me. I think it's part of why I don't...
Casey (she/her): I
Amy (she/her): I know you do, and I, I don't, I don't understand. You need to teach me your ways, oh wise one.
Casey (she/her): it I mean it's it's a learned nervous system skill and it's Uh you know one of the best and worst things that ever happened to me on social media was there was a guy who used to do callout content on coaches did a video about me and it went viral to the tune of I think he ended up with like a 12 million views on his video that comment section was awful and was wrecked by it for about a week and I had great friends who helped coach me through how do you handle going through something like that I came out the other side of it and was like Oh but did you die Like
Amy (she/her): There we go. Yeah.
Casey (she/her): You know
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her): comment sections phase me as much
[00:59:02] 80,000 ISO and I Sleep Fine
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Amy (she/her): this used to be more of a hot take, but I'm not alone in saying this these days. Um, so I, because I shoot indoors in really bad light, I have always and forever been saying, "Don't be afraid of high ISO." Because the traditional saying is, keep your ISO as low as possible.
And the way that gets interpreted is, don't shoot anything except ISO 100. And so then you end up with, you know, shutter speeds that are a 10th of a second for a dog, doing agility. I'm, I'm sorry, that's not gonna work. It's just gonna be a big smear across your photo. Um, I may be exaggerating a little bit, but you get the point.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): um, and then the, the kinda the corollary to that is that high ISO causes noise, but it's really the underexposure causes noise. So for the people who haven't caught on to the fact that it's not about high ISO, it's about underexposure, this, that may sound like a hot take.
Casey (she/her): Okay
Amy (she/her): regularly, at my events that are indoors, will shoot at 80,000 ISO, and I enjoy the reactions I get when I tell that to other photographers, because their jaw hits the floor, almost literally.
Um, and I kinda get this shocked look, like, "What are you talking about? You mean 8,000, right?" I'm like, "No,
Casey (she/her): No
Amy (she/her): I'm talking 80,000." And I take those pictures, straight out of camera, and I sell them to people, and I sleep well at night, thank you very much.
Do not come at me about high ISO.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): in high ISO land, and it is usable, and it is what makes my photos work, because I can shoot at f/2.8 and at 2500th of a second and, and get the sharpness that I want in my agility photos even when the light is terrible.
it used to be more of a hot take
ISO has improved so much over the years,
Casey (she/her): I have nothing to reply to this one because I still have the impression that it's the highest O that creates the noise And so that's one where like I am one of those people I know you shoot at such a high ISO Like we've talked about this before and so like it's interesting to hear that one cause I'm like I I have nothing to say about this one because I
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her): was how it worked
Amy (she/her): part of it is that, that, that there's a misinterpretation of don't let the ISO get higher than it needs to be. And for me, it needs to be 80,000.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): misinterpreted and misused as don't shoot, you know, over 100 or over 400 or whatever. And you have to take the, the situation as it is and say,
What do I need in order to make this photo work?
Casey (she/her): Right
Amy (she/her): when I'm doing agility indoors, I need 80,000 to make it work.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): that's just the reality.
Casey (she/her): there's a hot take here that I think a world of social media and learning things about photography in 60second soundbites we have oversimplified a bunch of those rules Cause I see it in comment section all the time of like Oh yeah of course this was taken at ISO 200 Like or bust Like this like this like pride
Amy (she/her): Really?
Casey (she/her): I
Amy (she/her): Hundred or bust?
Casey (she/her): Yeah Yes
Amy (she/her): Really?
Casey (she/her): Yes
Amy (she/her): My God
Casey (she/her): I'm outdoors anything over 100 or 200 and I'm doing something wrong as a shooting outdoors And so like but I see a lot of these things I'm realizing a lot of these perceptions I have or things that I have kind of picked up through Like I I'm learning I don't like to learn photography on social media I'd rather watch it on YouTube where at least it's like a fiveminute video and it's got a little bit of nuance and some variation to the conversation But
Amy (she/her): Yes
Casey (she/her): media has done a lot of damage to because we're oversimplifying the rules The ISO is the problem um the rule of thirds Like I there's I'm sure there's a dozen of these that you could I had to say it at some
Amy (she/her): Yeah.
Casey (she/her): episode that you can name off the top of your head that are things that people think are hard and fast rules and they're missing the point or they're using it oversimplified or they're taking that rule out of context or whatever
So here's my final take on our hot takes, is I think a lot of these came, I'm realizing come back to a couple of core things, is there is a lot of nuance in photography and a lot of, like, personal preference. Um, and we need to give people space to explore that, and a lot of, I'm gonna blame social media, tries to, like, pigeonhole that this is the only right way to do it, and that's not the case. And I think the other big takeaway is this conversation about, like, artistry versus technique and how important technique is, and not because rules are arbitrary, but because those foundational skills are what give us the space to, like, learn and grow like, blend and bend the rules from.
Amy (she/her): it's so much a core of, of who I am as a photographer that the technique has to be there, um, because that's where, that's where the artistry comes from for me. I can't be comfortable being creative unless I am not worrying about the technical. Part of my thing with back button focus is if I have to be thinking about which button should I be pushing for what part of the taking pictures are we doing right now, that takes me out of the creativity.
if I'm bothered by a word like pop it takes me out of the creativity. And I, I
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): become a little bit of a joke and, and,
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): I'm sure I will hear them now more than ever.
Casey (she/her): you will.
Amy (she/her): but, uh, but that's okay. I, you know, that's ... I can live with that. Um, bokeh will still always piss me off.
So knowing the technical side up, down, and sideways gives me a clear path to the creativity, and
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): feel like that gets missed in the conversation. So it's not an either/or. It gets talked about as either/or.
That's ... So we get rules that are simplified, and we get camps of, of photographers saying, "It's this," or, "It's this." And I wanna say it's, it's both. You don't have to be a shutter button focus person. You can be back button focus and be just as successful as those of us who are shutter button focus people.
So it's, it's finding what works best for you and your body mechanics and the way your brain works,
Casey (she/her): and so as you walk away from today's episode, like, take that balance with you, and then, um, come join us next week.
We're talking about
imposter syndrome, um, and go back to the brain side of this a little bit. And so yeah, if you've got any hot takes or if you need to tell Amy she's wrong about anything today, um, be sure to
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her): on all the social medias at the Focus Trap, and all of the information to find more about both of us and what we're working on is in the show notes, and we will see you next week for the next episode
Amy (she/her): I'm putting my email address in there. And I want the hot takes or I want the fight.
if you wanna fight in person, come join my membership.
Casey (she/her): There you go. Yes. Bet