Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
This podcast is an avenue to dialogue about the totality of the food experience. Everything from gardening, to preparing, to eating, to hospitality, to the Lord’s Table, with an eye toward how this act that we all have to engage in helps us experience the transformative power of God’s love and what it means to be human.
Episode 28 (Alex Early)
===
Andrew Camp: [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to another episode of The Biggest Table. I am your host, Andrew Camp, and in this podcast, we explore the table, food, eating, and hospitality as an arena for experiencing God's love and our love for one another.
And today I'm joined by Alex Early.
Dr. Alex Early is an author, pastor, and theology professor who loves to cook.
Alex consistently says that all of his wealth is in his relationships. And therefore the church, kitchen, and dining table all come together toward that end. His books include The Reckless Love of God, The New Believer's Guide to the Christian Life, The Cross and Kaleidoscope, Thinking About God, and most recently, Among the Pots and Pans, a new cookbook he just released. He lives with his wife, Jana, and their two children in Seattle, Washington.
So thanks for joining me today, Alex. It's great to connect to another pastor who loves to cook, um, you know, and excited to sort of hear your story and delve into all things food and faith.
Alex Early: Yeah. Great. Thanks for having me.
Andrew Camp: So I'm gonna begin here because in [00:01:00] your cookbook, which is delightful and beautiful, um, in the beginning, you mentioned that you started ministry with a lot of naivete, which a lot of us go into ministry, I think with.
And so. When you started ministry, what did you think or expect it to look like?
Alex Early: Uh, well, I had a, you know, some of it was a good and realistic vision of life and ministry and what life would look like as a pastor and serving the local congregation, and then other parts were just either unrealistic or, um, not as rooted in scripture as they should have been.
So I was a young guy and I just kind of like anybody out of college and launching into their career. Uh, we all assume that everything is going to go up and to the right and your star is just going to rise and everyone's just going to love your ideas and your vision and the things that you have to [00:02:00] say and the things that you're doing.
And that just wasn't the truth, but you only know what you know when you're young and just getting out of. College and starting out and chopping your way into, you know, the world of pastoral ministry. So, yeah, so I was naive. I just thought it was going to be, I thought it was going to be, um, I guess easier in certain regards and yeah.
Andrew Camp: No, for sure. I think we all expect, you know, things to, to work out a different way when we start the pastoral, a pastoral role, whatever that role is. And, you know, we expect people to listen to us to do what we say. Um,
Alex Early: yeah, yeah, yeah. And you expect relationships just to come naturally and easily. And yeah,
Andrew Camp: yeah.
Yeah. You expect people to agree with you or, you know, you say one thing and they take it the wrong way. Um, you know, it's just, it's not an easy terrain to navigate sometimes. And [00:03:00] um, so then you, you also, you, reality sets in and you know, you're experiencing, it sounds, you know, you don't share a lot, but you, it sounds like you're experiencing some burnout or, you know, some struggles and, um, that led you to this.
It seems like this led you to a journey. Um, towards the kitchen. Can you explain, is that true? Is that
Alex Early: where, yeah, that's kind of it. You know, like, uh, I did launch out into ministry. I planted a church successfully and it was, uh, growing and it did really well. And, um, and then I continued to kind of, like I said, like follow a traditional trajectory of, oh, if this is going great, then bigger equals better kind of thing.
Um, So, yeah, I got involved with working at Mars Hill Church. Um, and so they recruited me to come out and lead the Ballard campus here in Seattle. And, um, I got, uh, [00:04:00] released from my work pretty quickly. Um, which. You know, uh, I did not go on the Mars Hill podcast thing over at Christianity today to talk about any of that stuff, but it was, my experience was just my experience and I wasn't, I was not going to fit, you know,
Andrew Camp: um,
Alex Early: so it went through that and then went through another pretty difficult experience at another church.
Um, and so after two rounds of. Terrible church experience. I took a hiatus for ministry for about a year. Uh, and my wife and I spent a lot of time working on ourselves as individuals, as us, as a couple. And like, what are we going to do? Are we going to stay in ministry? Go back into it? Or are we going to just shift gears and do something else?
And, uh, as. You know, we decided, yeah, we're, we're going to stay in and we're going to go back in and, uh, [00:05:00] steward our pain as, uh, Frederick Beakner talks about. And, uh, so anyway, so that's been, that's some of our story, but anyway, uh, yeah, I had no idea that. Through cooking, cooking was a place where I found, uh, a lot of, it was already a hobby going and, um, and it was a place where I could just think and process and just be, you know, and not just there at a wall and plummet into depression.
But like. Create and be working with my hands and be providing for my family while standing there over the stove, like stewing in my own mind, working through experiences, things I was learning in therapy, things I was learning from the Bible, things that just processing. So it gave me a place to process, um, aside from those other very direct places of processing, like with a therapist or with my friends or a counselor or whatever.
Andrew Camp: Yeah. [00:06:00] So what did you find? Yeah, no, I appreciate that and I appreciate you sharing a little of your journey and Sure. The hurts, you know? Um, yeah. We all got, we all got 'em, you know, and church. Yeah. Um, the church hurt from a pastor is, is real and different. Um, yeah. Having experienced it myself, it's not something I would wish on anybody, um, for
Alex Early: sure.
Andrew Camp: Um, but you know, I, you know, God gives us graces and. You know food became a place for you where you were able to be in your hands And so what like, you know, obviously therapy's great, you know, but what did food provide and cooking That was different than say these other avenues
Alex Early: Yeah, um, like I was saying like, um I tend to pick meals to cook that end up taking a lot of time because it's a place for me to think it's a place for me to also be with people.
So sometimes, you know, my wife and kids are jumping in and helping [00:07:00] out or a friend or two are over and they're helping out. And so that's a great way to spend. But oftentimes it was a place for me to like, again, Like, it was just enough to get my mind off of the pain and do something else and shift gears and live in another headspace.
And at the same time, it wasn't so complex and so complicated that I couldn't Both both dice carrots and think about life, too. So again, it was something to do with my hands while I work through things. And I think a lot of people tend to be like that. It's it's one thing to sit in a chair and be deeply contemplative in that regard.
And and I do that for sure. But I can't do that all day every day. It's like so. This was able to give me a fun and creative outlet.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Alex Early: Uh, as [00:08:00] I worked through life with God and people and rest, yeah.
Andrew Camp: No, as you worked through it, what, through cooking, did you begin to notice different aspects of God that you didn't notice other places?
Alex Early: Yeah, yeah. Um, you know, the, And what I stumbled upon is something I like mentioned in the book is like, I, I simply stumbled into spaces that other saints long before me have stumbled into, whether it's brother Lawrence working and stirring and making a cake in the kitchen, or he talks about that, like, practice of the presence of God, or saying San Pasco, you know, or, um, Teresa of Avila, you know, and her famous line about God walks among the pots and pans.
Like, uh, I. I simply found myself in a place that the kitchen is just as holy as anywhere else because we don't leave God [00:09:00] at the communion table on Sunday, but God is with us in our every day in our ordinary mundane moments of life. And. I started noticing it's not really about getting him to come join me somewhere more like me waking up and joining him right now.
Andrew Camp: Yeah,
Alex Early: like, he never leaves me. So that I started to discover that theological concept became a reality 1st for me really in the kitchen.
Andrew Camp: So, yeah. The idea that God is just present, you know, that you're waking up to the presence of God each and every day and that through the bounty of creation and,
Alex Early: uh,
Andrew Camp: the joy of transforming ingredients.
Alex Early: That's it. And like creating and then providing for my [00:10:00] family and going, gosh, I am created. And I am provided for, and like these very obvious things that are right there at the very beginning of the Bible, but you know, there's so many of these things that you don't learn until you learn them. And for me,
Andrew Camp: a little later in life.
No, I hear that. No, and because you, you mentioned too that, you know, we as Christians and especially pastors, we steward in the world of words. Yeah. You know, we're preaching. You know, we're reading the word we're talking to people and there's something about the embodied activity of cooking and eating that I think, you know, for you, it sounds like it took some stuff from the head down deeper into the heart.
Alex Early: That's it. It gave time and space to process while moving my hands while interacting with people at the grocery store, while thinking through what this might taste like, or what that might look like, and who might enjoy this or that. [00:11:00] Like, again, it, it gave me space to kind of integrate. Creative work, providing work, um, and a space to process going through some hard stuff, or maybe it wasn't necessarily hard stuff, but at the same time I was like finishing my doctoral work and like, so I was able to like process like stuff on the Trinity and all that, like at the same, so it gives you a place to like work through things, you know.
Andrew Camp: Yeah, no, that's very cool. Like, um, it's slightly different for me, you know, as my experience in the kitchen, it's more of a space to just get out of my head. Like, I stopped thinking, you know, and it's a, it's a release that way.
Alex Early: Nowadays, I do find it more like that, but during a very difficult season of life, I found it to be kind of cathartic in one way, but I'm more like that now.
It's like, it's basically like my Sabbath all the time now. It's [00:12:00] like, I'm just here.
Andrew Camp: Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Alex Early: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: Yeah. And so how, how does it then translate with your family? Like what, how, you know, how, how old are your kids first? Like, cause
Alex Early: Kids are. 14 and 13, almost 15. So,
Andrew Camp: okay. So you have teenagers in the house.
What does cooking look like with, with them and teenage life?
Alex Early: Let's see. Our son is just learning to finally like stop picking through everything. And, um, he's like his balance finally broadening and he's asking for other things, you know, like, Oh, right. Um, yep. Chicken fingers and fries are, you know, boys are going to be boys, I guess.
But, um, anyway, so his palate's broadening. Our daughter will eat anything. And so she's always the adventurous one. Um, and so, but as far as like [00:13:00] cooking with them, it's something where. I, I will rope them in to help me out in the kitchen, but I, I intentionally only grab them for like five minutes at a time.
Hey, will you dice this onion for me? Hey, will you, you know, whatever, boil some water on the stove, whatever we're doing.
Andrew Camp: Right.
Alex Early: But I only use them for about five minutes because they're always coming and going. They got, they got stuff to do. It's just enough to slow down and touch base with them. And as they're doing something.
It gives, it gives us just another extra couple of minutes together that are Ordinary, but those are not ordinary moments. Those are holy moments. Um, because they're my kids. And so, yeah, so that's kind of what it looks like. We don't spend hours and hours, uh, in the kitchen together cooking, um, but we do, I get them in there just enough, you know, [00:14:00] or like tonight.
I'll probably make pizzas tonight for everybody. And so, like, right. Maybe I'll have them top all their pizzas or whatever,
Andrew Camp: you know
Alex Early: that thing.
Andrew Camp: Yeah. No, I mean, I love that thought Of just bringing them in for five minutes to do one or two tasks versus like hey, do you want to help me make dinner? Yeah You know, my girls are eight and six and so like they want to help but they have that five minute attention span as well
Alex Early: So take and bake cookies are good for, okay, well you can grease a cookie sheet and you can preheat the oven and you can listen to the timer and right.
Andrew Camp: Yeah. No, what was it? We, a couple of weekends ago, my girls asked for some homemade raviolis that I'd made a year ago. And so like, You know, they're like, can we help daddy? And I'm like, okay, this is rolling out pasta. It's like, you know, making raviolis isn't. And so like they would help for a little bit and I would get frustrated.
And so I think I love your idea of like, Hey, help do this [00:15:00] task for five minutes.
Alex Early: Yeah. Yeah. Kind of rope them back in as you roll out the pastas and you start, you know, you have to wrap you and all the other stuff, like, yeah. Right.
Andrew Camp: Yeah, no, I love that. And so listeners, I hope you take that advice as you're seeking to figure out how to bring your kids into cooking.
Grab them for, you know, what's a simple task they can do and then release them back into their childhood. Um, while,
Alex Early: you know, and like one thing I'm going to try this year, like our daughter, when she turns 15, we usually go to the cabin to a cabin up in the San Juan's and, um, And we'll stay there for like two or three days and it's just this remote, most amazing place.
And, uh, uh, I'll usually spend like half of the day making Regina scrambling's lasagna from New York times. And it's absolutely the most incredible thing, but it takes all day. It's a [00:16:00] full on commitment. And I might get our daughter to, to roll with me through the whole cook
Andrew Camp: this time.
Alex Early: You know, it's
Andrew Camp: like,
Alex Early: all right, commit with me.
We'll start at this time and we'll be done by this time. But you know, um, yeah, but she'll be 15 so she can maybe hang a little longer.
Andrew Camp: No, she can. Yeah. Yeah. And so what is it, you know, about Regina Schrambling's lasagna? Like your face that lights up like there's something about this lasagna that speaks to your soul, Alex.
So, like, what the incredible man,
Alex Early: um, so the technique is pretty wild. And if you had somebody like a Kenji Lopez food lab guy, explain the chemical compounds of how things break down, it would make all kinds of sense, I guess, to scientific listeners. But the big idea is, um, you make meatballs. That are like out of chuck and pork and garlic and parsley and all the stuff you make meatballs you [00:17:00] brown flour them you brown them They go into the marinara sauce For about an hour, and then you pull them back out, chop them back up, back into the marinara sauce, and so anyway, there's a couple of like, little techniques, you know, like, I had one of my like, science chef buddies explain all this stuff to me, and when he did, It made sense, but since then I forgot it.
It's, it's absolutely just the most incredible lasagna anybody could ever have. So it's just unbelievable. It takes about,
Andrew Camp: are you making your own pasta with it or is it you're using pre made lasagna?
Alex Early: This year I will be. Yeah, this year I will be
Andrew Camp: okay. I'll have to look up that recipe and maybe I'll throw it in the show notes for our listeners to, you know, and,
Alex Early: uh,
Andrew Camp: cause a good lasagna, you know,
Alex Early: and it makes a lot.
So just prepare yourself.
Andrew Camp: Okay. Okay. Homemade ricotta with it. Or, you know, you,
Alex Early: oh yeah, we'll do [00:18:00] the, we'll do it all, man.
Andrew Camp: You'll do it all, man. All right. I think, you know,
Alex Early: so we'll go all out for that one.
Andrew Camp: For sure. For sure. When you make this lasagna, what wine are you drinking?
Alex Early: Oh, man, probably a Chianti. Um, yeah.
Andrew Camp: Nice.
Alex Early: Probably. I was thinking about it yesterday, actually. Okay. Last night I was actually thinking about like, after dinner, like a graham six grapes, just a port. But, uh, We'll see.
Andrew Camp: There you go. Nice. Yeah. I'm partial. I like a good Barolo. Oh, yeah, man. Uh, yeah. Yeah. No, but a good Italian wine. Yeah. There's some great ones from San Marzano with like, you know, where they grow the tomatoes.
And so like sometimes you get that tomatoey flavor there that you're like, okay, I can taste the vines, you know, you know, and so you're, um, uh, you know, I haven't fooled around with it yet, but I'm, [00:19:00] I'm like, okay, I need to get a good, San Marzano wine and get some tomatoes and try to see, you know, what's,
Alex Early: Oh,
Andrew Camp: what's going on there.
I
Alex Early: might pick one up tonight, um, to go with our pizza. Now that you're saying that, that sounds really good.
Andrew Camp: I know we're gonna, we're getting off, you know, talking about food and just getting those meals that line up. But that's the beauty of the kitchen is, you know, you have these memories, uh, you know, that we create, you know, and I'm sure your kids will remember that lasagna and carry it with them.
Um, um, you know, and just that memory of being there. Yes,
Alex Early: that's that's what it does. That's what the kitchen does, you know, I mean, yeah I mean, there's a reason why they say like this was made with love like that's not like a make believe ingredient No, that is why you remember what you remember with love Your mom or your dad or your grandparents or an aunt or an uncle or whatever like you just [00:20:00] remember certain things Like they were made with love and it doesn't necessarily mean you're eating at a Michelin star restaurant It's do you feel loved and welcomed?
Is it is it a place of hospitality? Are you seen and heard in that space? It's like man. I felt something there
Andrew Camp: Yeah. Yeah. There's a great quote. Um, MFK Fisher, I don't know if you're familiar with her writings, but she has this great quote of like, people would ask her why she's writing about food when there's so much brokenness and pain.
And, you know, she's writing during world war two and she mentions like, Hey, when I write about food, I'm actually writing about love and belonging and brokenness. And like at the end of it, she said like, there's more than communion of bodies when we come together. And I think that's what you're alluding to.
Alex Early: That's it. That's completely it. And we all know that, like, we all know that everybody hears that by her and goes, yeah, that's it.
Andrew Camp: That's it. Yeah. That's why we do it. [00:21:00] And yet we also then have bad food habits, you know, or we're a culture of, you know, as Michael Pollan says in Omnivore's Dilemma, you know, we're autonomous eaters eating alone in our fast food in our cars.
Oh wow. And so we're fighting also this culture where we know on the one hand this table and food is this place of belonging yet We also have the American way of eating isn't we don't have a culture of eating it seems, you know at times Say like the France or even Asian cultures have and so like as you've thought about the American food habits Like what how what are you hoping for and then how does that then translate to how you think about ministry if it does?
Alex Early: Yeah, that's that's a good question. I mean food is more than fuel, you know and in our very busy Uh, hurried, North [00:22:00] American, Western, autonomous, individualistic culture, where it's, we act like machines 24 hours a day. We're glued to our phones, we're glued to a desk, we're glued to work constantly, like I heard someone say this week, like, you used to leave work.
But now when you pick up your phone, work just comes with you everywhere you go. And like, so we live like machines. So we treat our bodies like machines and therefore, yeah, food is just a means to an end so I can keep working and getting toward the next thing on my calendar. And food is meant for far more than fuel.
Andrew Camp: Right.
Alex Early: And so, yeah, the average American sitting in their car at a fast food thing, scarfing this down to the next thing. Uh, and I mean, I don't want to be like, judgy of people like eating fast food or whatever going like, I understand people are [00:23:00] places to be, but if that's the norm, it's worth challenging and asking the question, like, am I just like a, am I just being a machine in this world?
Is there another way that I could structure and reorder my life to where I actually have a little more margin to enjoy a couple of things? And. I fear that most or many people think that later on in life will get around to like slowing down and enjoying the table and we'll slow down and we'll enjoy like meals with family later.
It's like, yeah, but they're growing up in your house right now. And or there, you know. That later might not come. So, yeah, so I, when I think about food is more than fuel. It's the ground and the place that brings people actually together. Like, no one wants to eat alone. That's why when you see someone eating alone, they're staring at their phone.
Andrew Camp: Right.
Alex Early: Like, they just can't sit there and be alone. Mm
Andrew Camp: hmm.
Alex Early: It bothers [00:24:00] people to be alone while eating for some reason, and so it's just, it's designed to bring us together. Mm hmm.
Andrew Camp: Yeah, you know, and, and food runs throughout scripture. Like, and what's beautiful about your book is you, you paint that picture.
You, you help us, and you help the reader. See that theme running through scripture and, um, you know, I think as soon as you start noticing that food plays a prominent role, you see food everywhere in scripture, you know, that's, that's how I see it now. Like everything comes back to food, but you know, when did you start noticing like the, the role of food in scripture?
What was that for you?
Alex Early: Um, I started noticing that, like, right when I had planted our church, it's called Four Corners Church, um, I planted our church and I noticed right out of the gate that nothing was ever done in the work of a pastor, you know, like, people aren't finished, sermons aren't finished, I'm definitely never finished, like, so, because, [00:25:00] Nothing is ever finished.
Um, I needed to find some kind of work that I can finish, that I can complete. And so that's why I run every day. Like, I can run a 5k every day. I know when I'm done. Like, that kind of stuff. Like, I need tasks that I know are finished. Um, and cooking began to give me something I could do every day and complete a task and go, okay, this is done, you know?
Um, so I began learning that right out of the gate. My friend john, uh, at our church pointed that out to me and helped me see, like, you need to be able to finish some work, man, and you need some kind of creative outlet with your hands. And so for me, it was like, well, I enjoy painting, but when I paint, like I'm, I'm Alone, uh, or I can play music like I'm, I can, I can play music, you know, I can be in a band or whatever.
And like, I can do that whole thing. And like, but again, that takes me away from my family. And [00:26:00] so cooking became, became a place, uh, where I don't leave my family. I can complete my work and. Lo and behold, Jesus is here too. Wow. Oh, all of that began. Yeah. So that's kind of where, like kind of right out of the gate with the church planting and pastoral ministry.
Andrew Camp: Yeah. And, and then, you know, your thing of scripture, you know, like where did script, how did scripture then begin to inform all of this for you?
Alex Early: Oh yeah. Um, you know, I think the first, well, I planted our church in a bar.
Andrew Camp: I
Alex Early: had a job as a bar back and, um, it was one of the ways I was putting my way through seminary bar back substitute teacher and a day laborer.
And, uh, so that's how I paid for [00:27:00] seminary and. So, I mean, food was right there in the bar every day. And so I, I saw like this, I was watching it every day being a place, not in a church, but a bar watching. This is where people, it's a public house. It's where people come and connect. So I saw that constantly.
Um, but then when I really started seeing it, like in the Bible. You know, I remember reading a book by Tim Chalice.
Andrew Camp: Okay.
Alex Early: Called like Meals With Jesus or something like that. Oh yeah.
Andrew Camp: Tim Chester, right? Is
Alex Early: Tim Chester. That's it.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Alex Early: Chester, whatever. Yeah, no, I understand. It was so long ago now. Yep.
Andrew Camp: Yeah, no,
Alex Early: it was really cool.
And it was like basically walking through the gospel of Luke. Yeah. And, um, and showing, you know. That line that says something like Jesus was always on his way to a meal, at a meal, or heading away from a meal or whatever. Like, I started to see it there. I remember that had a, that marked me like, oh, that is really cool.
[00:28:00] Yeah. Um, and then I started seeing it everywhere.
Andrew Camp: Right. You know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Now, it's similar for me where I was reading Eugene Peterson, um, Living the Resurrection. And, you know, he has a quote of like, you know, the gospel writers are most fond of telling Jesus, Um, stories about Jesus at meals are around the table and I'm like, you
Alex Early: know,
Andrew Camp: like, you know, explosion.
Yeah.
Alex Early: Yeah. It was, it's kind of mind blowing like that. That really was, they, they were so concerned with the table because the table was such a holy place and a. Social signal.
Andrew Camp: Right? Yeah.
Alex Early: That piqued their interest. Like, you can't with these guys. You, you eat with people that look like us, think like us, talk like us, vote like us, believe like, like, these guys are not clean.
Like that, you know, so it was a.
Andrew Camp: So how [00:29:00] has Jesus's meal practices then informed you personally, but then also as you think, you know, as a pastor helping shepherd other people, what is that, how has Jesus challenged you?
Alex Early: Um, Yeah. Yeah, I had a conversation about this this week, you know, um, probably 2 days ago.
Um,
following Jesus is going to get you heat from the right and the left. They're going to, they're going to be moments where, um, my extremely conservative friends. Are gonna have a really hard time with my, uh, very much some not conservative friends that I eat with, and hang out with, and have a great time with, and really like being around.
My conservative friends can look at that and be like, what's wrong with you, Alex? Like, [00:30:00] Is there something wrong with your character at the same time, my extremely liberal friends or unbelieving friends or whatever over here on this side have a hard time. Like you hang out with people that like, believe X, Y, and Z.
And it's like, yes. And so I feel like Jesus's model is going to upset people on either end of the spectrum because he's not here to Pander to anybody, whether it's conservative or, or irreligious or whatever, like, so in following him and even in my own like daily life or pastoral ministry, you're going to look a little odd in the sense of if you're a pastor and you're hanging out with this kind of crowd, suddenly it's like, are you a very good pastor?
Do you know what you're doing? [00:31:00] You know? Um, so, yeah, yeah. That's kind of how that stands out to me, uh, with Jesus and dining with certain crowds.
Andrew Camp: Yeah. And holding that tension of, you know, it's not, it's not either or like we're so fixated on either or thinking, you know, whether, you know, it's in the church, out of the church, like it's either this or that.
But I think Jesus invites us to this both and. Yeah, absolutely.
Alex Early: Like there's a problem for Chris. Like I, I deeply feel like there's, I have a deep conviction. If I just go through my phone or my calendar and all of my appointments are all people who look like me and think like me and believe like me and talk like me.
And there's a problem. Like, I'm, I'm called to be the salt of the earth and called to be in the world, not of it, but in it. And like, there's, you know, [00:32:00] moments where if you went through Jesus's phone and looked at his friends, you'd be like, you're friends with that girl,
like, that's cool. Right. And so there's, there's some of like that, where I find that still deeply convicting of going church can become a place for pastors, especially to like somehow recluse and live in like this little plastic bubble and facilitate religious community for everybody else while they don't actually experience it.
And then they tell everybody else, go reach your friends with the gospel, but they don't actually have any unbelieving friends because they're too busy managing sheep all the time. And I don't know. I mean, you read through the new Testament and Paul's saying, like one of the qualifications of an elder in the church is to be well thought of by outsiders.
It's like, what do you think that means? People that don't love Jesus still speak well of you because of [00:33:00] the way you live. Like that's a qualification. That's a big deal. Right. Yeah. So. Yeah, anyway, so when I see Jesus at the table, he does not make sure everybody is super kosher before he'll break bread with them and enter into friendship with them.
Right. You know, so yeah, that, that speaks to me profoundly, like in how I'm supposed to see the table and my life. Hmm.
Andrew Camp: And so how do you, for listeners, you know, we all say yes to this, but the practice gets hard or, you know, um, you know, and so where, what would you, how could you encourage listeners and even me, you know, to, to then, you know, take this from, from head to heart.
Alex Early: One is, you know, [00:34:00] remember for me, it's like when I have certain friends over that say certain things that like, Oh gosh, my kids are in the room. I can't believe you just said that. But like, this is where Christians. Tend to cringe up like, see, that's, that's the thing right there. I don't want that guy using that word around my kids or that woman saying whatever, right, right.
But people that don't know Jesus are going to talk like they don't know Jesus.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Alex Early: Surprise. That's a good, yes. And sometimes a guy that does know Jesus also talks like he doesn't know Jesus. So like, there's a part of me where it's like just keeping a realistic vision of. Yeah, people are going to be unbelievers and that's, I shouldn't expect them to have the same kind of standards or morals or the way we carry ourselves in our [00:35:00] home.
But also, that's not saying, you know, let everything go and who cares and all rules are off. But I. I, I think it's just a matter of going,
there are so many people that have either deconstructed or left the faith or have never even entertained the idea of faith, because they are given all of these prerequisites. Not for Jesus, but just to come into your house. And it's like, some of that needs to be challenged and questioned.
Andrew Camp: Right.
Alex Early: You know what I'm trying to say?
Yeah. Yeah. And going like, well, Jesus didn't make people do X, Y, and Z before he would have a meal with them.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Alex Early: I will.
Andrew Camp: Right.
Alex Early: Or I'm [00:36:00] tempted to, or I'm like, oh man, I started asking all these questions that Jesus wasn't even remotely, Because again, like, so what if like these people are talking about something like this, we can change the subject if it's obviously way out of bounds or something.
And yeah, guys, guys, I mean, still lead your home, but at the same time, when that friend leaves the house, you can talk to your children or your wife about those conversations and go, yeah, see how we handled that. Like you can keep applying the gospel and go, yeah, that's where we're different. And you just explained that.
And so that's kind of how. We've rolled.
Andrew Camp: Yeah. With
Alex Early: our kids.
Andrew Camp: No. I love that idea.
Alex Early: Training our kids to go out into the world, and I don't want my kids to be bulldozed day one in UW because suddenly they've been in this like so sheltered environment that they've never had their ideas challenged or tested and suddenly [00:37:00] they're blown out of the water on day one.
You know what I mean? When they leave the house.
Andrew Camp: No, for sure. For sure.
Alex Early: It's a teaching moment and a guiding moment to go, did you hear my buddy when he said blank and how I was showing him the like, yeah, that's discipleship in the home.
Andrew Camp: No. Yeah. And it's learning how to have conversations, you know, because even when we invite Christians over, they can say some things that make me cringe.
Like, you know, and especially when they're nonbelievers, you get nonbelievers and Christians together and somebody is going to say something that is.
Alex Early: Dude.
Andrew Camp: Offensive.
Alex Early: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: Or
Alex Early: just wrong. Yeah. Or just noxious. Or just like. Man, that's so easy for you to say when you're in a room of nine out of ten of you are Christians.
You got that unbeliever over here and it's like, that's a weird,
Andrew Camp: yeah, right. Yeah. No. But it's learning how to have those conversations in such a deeply polarized society, you know, and that's what the table is supposed to, [00:38:00] to do. It's supposed to bring the misfits together. It's supposed to allow us to see the humanity in another.
Um, Yeah. You know, and recognize their humanity before the judgment, you know,
Alex Early: yeah, that's exactly it
Andrew Camp: arts. Yeah You know Jesus touching the leper before cleansing him You know Yeah, so much there because yeah I you know, I think of Miroslav off and his idea of the will to embrace begins with any prior any Preconceived notion of who they are like you embrace them and then you know first,
Alex Early: yeah
Andrew Camp: Yeah You know, and so that's the power of the table.
Alex Early: Yeah, that's that's completely it That's the power of the table is we don't have to see eye to eye on everything before we can sit down and have a meal And and and it's okay to not agree on things You know Like if we can treat each other [00:39:00] lovingly and respectfully and kindly then I'm not gonna vote you out of my life Because you believe things that I don't believe I can still maintain a friendship with you even though we see the world very differently, you know Yeah, our friendship would probably grow into something far deeper if we saw and agreed on more essential issues to suddenly just be like, you're out of my life.
And I have nothing to do with you people that act like that. You people that think that way, this othering stuff. Just don't have time for it anymore. Uh, yeah, I just don't have time for it. It's like, I don't want to live a life like that.
Andrew Camp: No, when you say I don't have time, it's, um, what immediately thought of is like, yes, you know, we want to make space for, you know, That welcoming presence and that's actually takes way more [00:40:00] time, you know, um, and it's a way harder work than the other in, um, you know, and so, um,
Alex Early: yeah, it's way harder.
It is way harder. It costs time. It costs money. And like, that's something to like, we like the idea of hospitality. Um, but oftentimes we think hospitality equals entertainment. Mm hmm. And hospitality is not just about come over and let me wow you with some meal or some amazing house or whatever. Like,
Andrew Camp: right.
Alex Early: There's nothing wrong with cooking great meals or having beautiful homes. The idea though, is going hospitality has to do with more with communicating that someone really belongs here. I'm not here to perform for you. No. Um. But hospitality helps people feel seen, you know, and that takes time because once they feel [00:41:00] seen and loved, they might open up and share hard things that are going on in their lives and suddenly like, Whoa,
Andrew Camp: Yeah,
Alex Early: we're not just eating lasagna.
We're suddenly like, we're talking about heavy things and as people open up, like, that's something that we have to be aware of. If we're becoming people of hospitality is going, yeah, it's going to cost time, money, emotions. Following up, it's going to caring it. Yeah. Yeah. Nature love costs For sure. Love is And yeah, at the same time, what else is there to do?
Andrew Camp: Yeah. .
Alex Early: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.
Andrew Camp: No, for sure. You know, and that's, you know, and the beauty of hospitality is that you can connect over craft mac and cheese or you can, you know, connect over this beautiful lasagna that [00:42:00] takes all day to make like Yeah, exactly. Yeah. You know, and there's a place for both. Mm hmm. Um, you know, and that's where the, you know, holding that tension, you know, um, continues to, you know, I continue to wrestle with, you know, and, and so like, you've written this cookbook, this cookbook's out in the world, like, not many pastors write cookbooks, you know?
Um, and so like, what, what, what, what, what, what, what? As you were writing this, you know, you are guessing, you know, nobody writes a book without a vision for what the book could be like, what, what's your hope and prayer for this book?
Alex Early: Um, the big idea of really my life is I'm trying to show up to my actual life.
And so the way we talk about it in our family and around our church is I want to be faithfully present. Hmm. To God, to myself and to other people, I want to be present and I want, [00:43:00] so when I was writing this book, that's what I'm trying to communicate page after page is like, show up on your phone, stop working.
You know, just slow down and like, actually show up to the one life you've been given to live and respond to God in the gospel in it, inviting people in, like, again, like, I'm deeply concerned about how fast we run and how. we, we just, the pace of our lives are just, it's too much. And so we're burning out.
We're addicted to all kinds of anxiety meds and sleep medication now. And on and on. It's like, we run ourselves like machines and I'm going, God's already provided the solution first in himself and then you slow down in his presence. And so that's what I'm trying to do through the art of cooking and hospitality.[00:44:00]
It doesn't have to be this like, okay, so now if I'm going to slow down, I need to go be like a monk, like in a cave somewhere. It's like, no, just slow down enough to have a meal with your family or your friends. That's what I'm saying. Just slow down like that and do the thing that you kind of really. Want to be doing yeah Do that
Andrew Camp: no, it's like you Yeah, no, it's like you said early and you know when you were learning, you know This cooking is you were beginning to see God's presence everywhere.
And so so much of the spiritual life I think is just it's not adding more. It's actually how can we be present to what God is already up to? And I think we have to eat. And, you know, we, and so how can God become a present factor in that moment? Um, you know, and, and that's the beauty of food is we have to do it.
So how can we bring God into this mix when, you know, he's already provided it. So like, [00:45:00] like you said,
Alex Early: Yes. And he's already there. It's wake up to the fact that he is already there.
Andrew Camp: That's recognizing God in the beauty of the produce and the beauty of like the bounty of produce like,
Alex Early: yeah, or the fact that, you know, just about any of us can walk into a grocery store today and look over the sea of produce and you can buy anything you want inside.
I was standing at the, at this, uh, this water, this thing full of like shrimp and crabs and oysters and whatever at the grocery, like last weekend with my friends, Jesse and Nick, and we're just standing there and that's what we were talking about. We were looking at everything across the grocery and it's like, guys, isn't this crazy?
We can just buy anything we want in here. Yeah. You just walk over and pay you like, you can buy an orange. You can buy, like, we were just like looking at everything [00:46:00] going, man, we're And I know this sounds so silly because like, well, duh, you've been going to the grocery store for 44 years, Alex. Right. It's like, yeah, I've been going to a grocery store for 44 years.
Mhm. We are overwhelmingly blessed. Yeah. We've been given so much. We ought to be the most grateful people. You know, this ought to cultivate an incredible amount of gratitude. It's like, well, no, I mean, I, I don't have all the money in the world and I can't do everything in the world, but oh my gosh, if you've got with these things, we'll be content.
Like Paul talks about, you know, for sure. Yes. Yeah. We've got plenty to be content over,
Andrew Camp: which then should help us move out into the world to feed, to feed the hungry, to, to care for the poor. Like, um, you know, I think the table also then is a motivating missional act, you know, that if we, if we can't see the hungry, you know, both [00:47:00] literally and spiritually, like I think the tables we need to, to do a little course correction as well.
Alex Early: Yeah. So you can see as a place of mission, a place of communion, like, yeah. Based on who's there, you know, but God is always in the middle.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Alex Early: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: Yeah. We don't need to ever invite God's presence. Um, no, he's here. He's here. I think. Yeah. It's opening our eyes. Um, you know, looking up from a screen long enough to see it.
Um, yes. Being okay with young kids causing ruckus at the table.
Alex Early: Yeah. That's just part of it. Yeah. And they don't, they don't take away. Okay. Like, that's the thing, they're not taking away from anything, even though they're loud or whatever, or wanting to talk about some, whatever thing that you really don't care about.[00:48:00]
It's like, they're not actually taking away from anything.
Andrew Camp: No. They're
Alex Early: actually God.
Andrew Camp: Yeah, yeah. But if they can, you know, if they see that the table is a place where they can be themselves. Yeah, you know, maybe, you know, when my girls are grown, they won't try to clean up their act, you know, before, before God, but can just let loose and have fun.
Alex Early: Show up as you are.
Andrew Camp: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, love it. Love that beauty of the table. Um, the simple yet profound, like it is, it's so simple, but yet it is a challenge. Um, That's not always easy.
Alex Early: No, no, it's not. It's more of a, it's a, like you said, it is, it's, it's all a labor of love. Yes. Yeah. Like that's the point of the table.
Yeah.
Andrew Camp: Yeah. Nope. And not every meal is going to be this profound spiritual experience. No,
Alex Early: no, not at all. You know? And, and that's okay too. Yeah. [00:49:00] Not every meal is, wow. I feel like we just, Encountered God here, like, not every meal is intended to be that way, but I do think more often than not, we could slow down just a little bit, just a little bit.
To recognize we're with each other, you know, and this is special to be together and this is especially god gave us this food Yeah, yeah,
Andrew Camp: and there'll also be times where you try a recipe and you're like, well, that was garbage We're gonna not do that ever again.
Alex Early: Absolutely Yeah, absolutely that happens or um, yeah One of my friends one time he's a he brews beer.
Um back in georgia and uh, He said, uh, he made one batch of beer that I, that I liked, whatever it was. like, Oh, did you guys make any more of that? He was like, you liked that? I [00:50:00] was like, yeah. And he's like, yeah, that was a single edition.
Yeah. Yeah. So every once in a while, something will come up and like, Oh, that was a single edition.
Andrew Camp: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's one time. No. Um, but on the other end, do you have a favorite recipe in the book? Like if, if you were going to say like, if you cook one recipe, cook this one, what's, what's that recipe?
Alex Early: Uh, the shrimp tacos,
Andrew Camp: the shrimp tacos.
Okay, nice. What, what about the shrimp tacos? It's,
Alex Early: uh, the story that goes with them is great. Um, so my friend John Snell and I, uh, and our friend Grandy streets, we worked on these tacos for about three years, three and a half years. working on them, trying to figure out what else goes in this marinade and so on.
So we spent a lot of time working on these tacos, just goofing off. [00:51:00] And one day when we thought we had just about nailed it, uh, you know, you fry a tortilla, you've got your shrimp that's marinated. You make a slaw, you make the sour cream, you make this guacamole. We've got all this stuff going. We. Make the taco.
It's amazing. And then we, uh, John's daughter, Riley, walked downstairs. She was about nine years old. We call her Rue. Rue walked in and said, Hey, Rue, try one of these tacos. She tried it. She goes, you know what this needs? What? She goes, this needs like red pepper jelly on the base. We're like, Oh, that's interesting.
So we got it. We made it. And it's absolutely unbelievable.
Andrew Camp: Um, so a nine year old girl, you know, revolutionized your shrimp taco,
Alex Early: gave us the thing we needed and you're like, Oh my gosh. And it's so good. Um, cause it really does do the salt, fat, acid, heat thing. And uh, she added. [00:52:00] What was missing right there.
It was pretty funny. So that's my favorite thing in that book.
Andrew Camp: Okay. Awesome. Yeah, no, yeah, stuff in there. No, there is. And it's all approachable. You know, you're not dealing with this esoteric chef. No, I love the chef driven cookbooks from, you know, um, you know, but you also need a cookbook that you can do every day.
Alex Early: Yeah, that's all this is. Yeah. Stuff anybody can do. Yeah.
Andrew Camp: Nice. Awesome. Um, there's a question, as we begin to wrap up, that I'd love to ask all my guests. Um, and so it's this. What is the story you want the Church to tell?
Alex Early: Hmm. What's the story I want the Church to tell?
Gosh. I think the church, that's so big. That's almost too big for me. Um, but the, what the story our church is telling, I can say it [00:53:00] that way.
Andrew Camp: That's fair. Yeah.
Alex Early: Our church is simply responding to God and the gospel through living lives that are faithfully present to God and ourselves and each other. So there was what a church, what a church, the, what is the church?
The church is a collection of people who have responded. To God, and the Gospel. We've assembled around the person and the work of Jesus by the Spirit, right? That's what a church is. So let's respond to that and invite people into life with God. I think that's it. It's a, we're to be a hospitable place of invitation to life with God.
Andrew Camp: Nice. Yeah. Love it. Love it. Um, no, thank you. I appreciate [00:54:00] this. And it's been a fun conversation. So some fun questions to wrap up, um, centered around food. And so what's one food you refuse to eat?
Alex Early: Sweet potatoes.
Andrew Camp: Ah.
Alex Early: Yeah, okay. Our first year of marriage her favorite thing to eat and the only thing she knew how to make was sweet potatoes, so Sweet potatoes.
Andrew Camp: Okay Fair enough. Oh, yeah. Gotcha. Then on the other end of the spectrum. What's one of the best things you've ever eaten? Oh, man
Alex Early: One time
Andrew Camp: I sat with my granddad
Alex Early: Uh, by a pond when I was a kid and we were fishing and we ate tomato sandwiches in the sun and it was the greatest meal of my life.
Andrew Camp: That's awesome. Yeah. Love it. That's cool.
Alex Early: [00:55:00] That's it. That's it. Salt, pepper, mayo. With your grandpa. With my granddad. That was the greatest.
Andrew Camp: Yeah, that's cool. What a special memory.
Alex Early: Yep.
Andrew Camp: Um, and then finally, there's a conversation among chefs about last meals. As in, if you knew you had only one meal to left to enjoy, what would it be? And so for Alex, if you knew you only had one last meal. What might be on your table?
Alex Early: Oh, wow.
Gosh, that's a hard one. Um, That puts me in a strange head place. Like, uh, Going off sabbatical and being in this place of contemplation, I'm tempted to just say, like, bread and wine.
Andrew Camp: Fair enough, yeah.
Alex Early: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, probably bread and wine.
Andrew Camp: Nice. Yeah. No, it's, it's an interesting question. It's curious. What always people say, but, um,
Alex Early: maybe a slice of, uh, maybe some career.[00:56:00]
Andrew Camp: Okay. Yeah. There's nothing wrong with bread, wine, and cheese, you know,
Alex Early: maybe a little cheese in there too.
Andrew Camp: Yeah. Yes,
Alex Early: thinking about that today, actually,
Andrew Camp: it's morbid, but I think it speaks to what we crave. And I think, you know, um, this was back 20, 2009, probably there was actually a cookbook that came out of like, they asked the greatest chefs like Gordon Ramsey, uh, others of what their last meal would be.
And a lot of them all, you know, who have access to every ingredient possible. All of them wanted their mom's home cooking.
Alex Early: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For me it would be probably a tomato sandwich then. Yeah. Like you were saying a minute ago. Like my granddad. Like something like that.
Maybe that's it. That's interesting.
Andrew Camp: Well, Alex, I really appreciate this. It's been a joy, um, to connect, to hear of your story, your heart, your passion, um, not only for Jesus, but for the table and make practicing Jesus's table [00:57:00] habits. And so if people are curious, you know, is there a place they can follow you or, um, obviously by the cookbook?
Um,
Alex Early: yeah, I'm on Instagram, you know, Alex early or Alex early food is the food account. And then, um, p a early. com. Um, and then the books available everywhere, you know, through the publisher, Amazon, wherever it Barnes and Noble, it's everywhere.
Andrew Camp: So no, do pick up the book, follow Alex. Um, you know, gathering around the table in this season of life, um, is so important.
And so I hope you as listeners enjoy this, um, and, and begin to start practicing this and even try some new recipes from Alex. And so if you've enjoyed this episode, please consider subscribing, leaving a review or sharing it with others. Thanks for joining us on this episode of The Biggest Table, where we explore what it means to be transformed by God's love around the table and through food.
Until next time, bye.