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Live Lead Last is a weekly podcast hosted by leadership coach, nonprofit director, and entrepreneur James Duvall. Designed for growth-minded leaders, this show helps you live by design, lead with purpose, and leave a legacy that lasts.
Through honest conversations, practical tools, and real-life stories, James equips leaders to develop strong roots, sustainable influence, and lasting impact — both personally and professionally. Whether you're leading a team, a business, a ministry, or a family, this podcast will help you become the kind of leader others want to follow.
Lance: [00:00:00] the best gift you give yourself, your family, your team, your church, your organization, your business is a healthy you. I do think as a leader you better be secure in yourself. You better have a backbone and you better have thick skin, am I living well? The one and only life I'm ever gonna have.
James: hey friends, and welcome back to the Lively last podcast. I'm your host James Deval, and I'm so glad you're here. Before we jump into today's episode, I wanna invite you to join the Lively last five day leadership reset. It's a free, practical tool designed to help you realign your priorities. Reclaim your focus and lead with more purpose and clarity.
You can start [00:01:00] today@liveleadlast.com slash reset. In today's episode, we're talking about something every leader wrestles with how the lead from a place of health not hustle. studies show that 60% of leaders report feeling isolated and emotionally depleted. Whether you're in a church, a nonprofit, or or the marketplace. The pace and pressure of leadership today can quietly erode the very foundation you lead from your soul. So to help us navigate that, I'm joined by Lance Whitt. Lance has been leading churches and organizations for over 40 years. He's pastored three churches and served as an executive teaching pastor at Saddleback Church during the years of purpose driven life.
Where he helped lead the Global 40 Days of Purpose campaign impacting over 25,000 churches worldwide. In 2007, Lance launched Replenish an organization dedicated to helping leaders live and lead from a healthy soul. Since then, he's coached and equipped thousands of leaders through speaking, writing, and personal coaching, and the tool he calls your [00:02:00] One Life Process. Lance is the author of several books, including Replenish High Impact Teams and Your One Life. He's also a husband, dad, granddad, and the man who practices what he preaches, living with intention. Margin and deeply rooted purpose. I always walk away challenged and inspired when I talk with Lance, and I think you will too.
So let's jump into this conversation with Lance Whitt.
Lance, man, it's so great to have you on the podcast. Thanks for spending some time with us today.
Lance: Thank you, James. I always love getting the chance to be with you. I really appreciate our friendship and any time I can hang out with you, that's a win for my life. So I'm honored to be on the podcast.
Awesome,
James: man. Well, you've been on the Lively last podcast before and also on the Art espousing with my wife Lisa, and I. So many of our listeners may know a little bit about you already, but I love just to get for you to give us like a life update. What's going on in your life right now?
Lance: Wow. Well, gosh, it's hard to believe [00:03:00] that I've been doing replenish, uh, going on 20 years.
So a lot of my life is focused around. Speaking on kind of the health of leaders, you know, that's become a lot more popular since COVID. It wasn't all that sexy before COVID. Yeah. But since then, everybody's doing it. I'm also doing the one life process that I've created. I'm doing that for individuals as well as training other facilitators.
I still work with a few churches around the country. I do coaching with several. Really trying to focus more on younger kind of pastor leaders, a few business people. I'm also in a season of life, James, at age 66 that I'm trying to slow it down. So I am on what I call my glide path to the finish line. And so I'm just each year dialing back a little bit, creating a little more margin and space.
Just time for family and, and the things that are most important to me. So I'm loving Matt. And probably the other update is [00:04:00] we just did our annual cousin camp with about four granddaughters. Took him for a week to Phoenix and just had an amazing time there at such a fun age. And that is just such a life-giving part of my life.
So anyway, lot more that going on in our world. But those are a few things that give you kind of an update.
James: You know, Lance, one of the things I love about you is that you are constantly growing yourself and continue to develop. You're not sitting on the sidelines. You say you're 66, but I think the years I've known you, you're probably the healthiest you've been physically and working on your health and still growing business and investing in people, and I think it's really awesome.
Um, I, I love you said 20 years now with Replenish, which is hard to believe. I mean, 20 years goes by fast. Take us back a little bit and talk to us about like what was the thing that actually drew you initially to start replenish?
Lance: Well, that's a pretty easy answer. It would be my own brokenness and my life being [00:05:00] a little bit in a mess.
Yeah, I mean, I think I was like a lot of pastors who had a lot of ambition who want the Lord to use my life and I was, you know, love being a leader in ministry, but I've always struggled with workaholism being compulsively busy. Just working all the time, going fast. And then, you know, I spent seven years at Saddleback Church during the years that Rick wrote Purpose-Driven Life.
And that was an amazing rocket ride of ministry influence. But it also. Came with a lot of pressure and chaos. And the truth is, I wasn't leading myself well. And so after seven years, I stepped away really hard decision, but I, I now can look back and tell you I wasn't longing for a different way to do ministry.
I was longing for a different way to do life. And so my stepping out of that role and being in that bit of a gosh dark season was what led me to start paying attention to my [00:06:00] own soul. Paying attention to my health, my rhythms, understanding like my genogram. And I just began to explore all of that kind of stuff.
And so out of that then was birthed this idea of could I come alongside other leaders and help them live and lead from a healthy soul too. That's
James: amazing. I've heard your story many times and as you were just sharing it, it made me think a lot of times as leaders or learners specifically, we grow out of what we teach.
Yeah. And so when you launched into Replenish, how much of like where you're at now, did you have like kind of formalized, like you had this idea of this ministry, this business? Yeah. But how much of it was kinda working it out in yourself as you were
Lance: in many, many ways, James? I still feel like it is still that, but I'm a lot more clear today around some best practices and things that actually helped me stay in a healthy place.
Back then. Uh, in fact, it's interesting when I think about writing the book Replenish, it's now been out, [00:07:00] I don't know, a little more than 15 years back then. I had a lot more questions than answers. But I think one reason the book has connected well with people is it just the questions I had resonated with them too.
And even though I didn't have a lot on the solution side, I, I knew I was asking the right questions and working through the right kinds of things. Just as the years have gone on, I feel like I've just developed this in a much more robust way with some practices. And I think early on, here's how I would describe it.
Early on, it was an app that I added to the software of my life, but now I feel like this is really become an operating system for me. But it's been 20 years in the making of it, becoming an operating system. So, but in those early days, even as I went. Again, very little of my work would've been replenish oriented.
In those days. A lot of it was just consulting, speaking, helping people with [00:08:00] small groups, curriculum, whatever. Right. I was kind of just hustling 'cause I didn't have a job and was trying to figure out what I was gonna do. But over time now, pretty much everything I do is focused on the health of leaders.
It's been a slow turn toward that direction.
James: Yeah. I feel like, you know, when you started replenish, you know, at least in in the circles that I ran in the church space, it was really counter-cultural to church, right? This whole idea of actually caring for yourself. And I think even today as you think about like the landscape of leadership, there's so much more content on like.
Self-care and like people are biohacking and cold plunging and taking supplements and eating healthy and so forth. But 20 years ago that wasn't really the case. Right? And so there was really, I would assume there was kind of a push against. Kind of the norms and you were pre some of the stuff on like Sabbath and some of the books that came [00:09:00] out with Replenish.
So one of the things that I've always heard you say is that self-care is not selfish. It's good stewardship. And probably 20 years ago that was really a push against it. But how have you talk a little bit about that statement, but also how have you seen the progression or have you seen progression in leadership, especially maybe in the faith space, nonprofit space, uh, leadership space of self-care.
Lance: I think if you're, rewind the clock to when I started in ministry, kind of the unspoken kind of way to live in ministry. Was that you, you sacrificed everything right. Put your own self and your family and you almost were, you know, sacrificing your family as a bit of a badge of honor and being compulsively busy and always available.
Like you would hear things in church growth conference, like you can rest when you get to heaven and you know, that's good. Seminar content is just lousy theology and that's the way I lived. I bought into that hook, line and sinker. I began to really [00:10:00] see the toll it was taking on my own life and soul and marriage and parenting and everything.
And so, you know, in the last 20 years have sort of reshaped some of my theology around that. And I really do believe that self-care is not selfish. Now, you know, you can be self-indulgent, self-gratifying, self-absorbed. All of those are unhealthy. But when you are sharpening your acts and you are. Filling your bucket so that you are the best version of yourself.
That's good stewardship and because you've got your one and only life, and I think everybody who is in ministry gets this intuitively leading on empty is really hard. Because ministry is complicated. And then when you add to it an empty soul and you're drained and you don't have anything in, you know, kind of anything left in your tank, that just becomes really challenging.
And so I feel like for me, part of this journey has been [00:11:00] to begin with just recognizing my own humanity and my own limits, and that I was a person before I was ever called. To be a pastor. And I think sometimes in ministry we pretend that we don't have the same needs as everybody else. And the truth is I do and I have to be as conscientious and.
Be as intentional as I would want people in my church or my ministry to be in what they do. So, and I do think things are getting better. The conversation is there and there's a lot more talk about healthy rhythms and Sabbath, the practice of Sabbath and actually things like sabbaticals. And I see pastors have more life giving hobbies when you know, you rewind the clock 30 years ago, I feel like that was really almost non-existent.
That principle is kind of for me, James, built on this assumption or belief that the best gift you give yourself, your [00:12:00] family, your team, your church, your organization, your business is a healthy you. And so you being the best version of yourself really matters. And I always say that I, when I work with leaders, most Christians I know are delight deficient.
Like they, they don't have enough life giving things in their day-to-day world that put life back in them. And so I think a good question to ask if you're listening is just like, what is life giving to me? And pay attention to your answers to that and give it some serious thought.
James: Yeah, I was just having this conversation with a core group of guys I meet with, and we're talking about this idea of your circles of influence, and it all starts with self, and you can only give out of what you possess.
And that fact that if you're constantly trying to give out of an empty well, or just out of, you know, nothing's there, you know, you're actually not feeding life into anybody. Right. [00:13:00] No, you, you're actually not accomplished anything. And, and I think that's where a lot of leaders struggle is because it is a leadership, you know, and everything in life has its challenges, but you're giving out emotionally, you're giving out mentally, there's a physical piece to it and so forth.
And so that one whole life, you actually need to have some. Self-care there and so that you can actually have something to actually give to your family, to your team, to your organization and community. I'm interested to know like what are some warning signs that a leader needs to be aware of that maybe, you know, we literally, last we talked about the root system or life, the things that are below the surface that actually feed.
Into, you know, our reality of how we experience life. What are some things that you would warn a leader to be looking for? Some red lights, some caution flags that like, Hey, you're becoming unrooted or unhealthy in your leadership.
Lance: Yeah. I think you actually alluded to the first thing I would mention, which is to realize that.[00:14:00]
The struggle with health is first internal.
James: Hmm.
Lance: It always leaks out externally, but it is beneath the surface, down in the root system. And again, I think this is very consistent with scripture that life flows from the inside to the outside. It always goes from root to fruit, but we tend to wanna focus on all the external stuff.
And I, I, so again, I've shared the, as a workaholic and compulsively busy. And so when you're that way, you're always managing. You're over commitments. Right. And you're overscheduling your calendar. So one day I was sitting with my calendar again, trying to figure out how to work smarter and how could I cram more in and do more, you know, just 'cause I wanted to get after it.
Right? It was one of those days that only way I know to describe it is like the Holy Spirit ambush me and. He just turned the spotlight off of my calendar and put it on my soul and began, I began to hear questions like, Lance, why are you so compulsively busy? Hmm. Why do you always [00:15:00] over schedule your calendar?
Why do you say yes to everything like. Why do you care so much what everybody thinks? Like what is all bad about? And it just helped me realize like this was not a calendar issue, it was a soul issue. It was something going on inside of me that was broken. And so I would say to a leader, if you wanna get serious about this, you gotta learn to pay attention to your own self.
And like where are some of those broken places? That often are connected back to our family of origin, to your genogram. Yeah. And that you may not be self-aware about, but I promise you other people see it, but then it always leaks out externally. Right. So I, I just think about things like, you're more irritable, you are impatient, there's just not much joy or contentment like you, you can't seem to really celebrate anything anymore or.
Maybe the most obvious sign is like you are just always exhausted. Mm-hmm. And, and I think there's a difference between being good, tired, which I can recover [00:16:00] from, from a good Sabbath or maybe a week's vacation. I've had a busy pushing ministry and that time off recover that's different than being depleted, which I think unhealthy is you end up being depleted and that's a long recovery.
I think another side, James, is you can't receive feedback in a healthy way. Like you get defensive, you live isolated. Maybe you're engaging in escapist kinds of activities, binge watching television porn, could be a variety of things. But all of those things to me would be like, uh, you know, a warning light on the dashboard of my life that there's something going on I need to pay attention to.
James: I just recently had a guy named Chandler Rogers on the podcast and is the founder of a app called Join Relay for people who are struggling with addiction pornography. And one of the things he said that stuck with me is he, he said, most people don't have a porn problem. They have a pain problem. [00:17:00] And so when you start, begin to understand that there's what, what the pain is below, and you know, there's broken places and so forth that we tend to.
Try to feed with things are unhealthy. Makes a lot of sense. I also think when you're talking about that, just the places of our family origin and those things that are put on us belief systems. Lisa and I were just talking yesterday about this idea of when we say I should or I ought to, like who told you you should or who said you ought to.
And a lot of that comes from, you know, our family origins tendencies from our, you know, things that have been nurtured into us and so forth. I think this is probably, I think you would agree, where self-awareness is so, so important, right? Yeah.
Lance: Yeah, absolutely. You know, I use a statement a lot in my ministry that self-awareness is your best defense against self-deceit.
Mm. And so I think every leader, the higher you go up in leadership, the more critical it is for you to lean into self-awareness and, uh. To lean into things [00:18:00] like genogram and family of origin and really honest feedback and that you're actually seeking that out and you get to work with a lot of leaders just like I do.
And I believe that for a lot of leaders, their leadership lid is their lack of self-awareness. Yeah. It's not their communication or persuasive abilities or strategic thinking. It is their lack of, of self-awareness and it. It's creating toxicity in their family and their team. And so I, I couldn't agree with you more that self-awareness is critical.
James: Yeah. And I think probably, you know, I've heard you talk about that a lot of leaders deal with, uh, terminal niceness, right? Like always having to, you know, be something for people and so forth. Talk to us a little bit about that idea of terminal ISIS and how it undermines rootedness in leadership.
Lance: I mean, I think this is something that's common in church culture.
We're kind, we're gracious people, we're diplomatic. The shadow side of that is that means often [00:19:00] we don't really deal with hard stuff and we don't have. Honest, mature adult conversations about difficult things. And so I put that label on it that we suffer from terminal niceness. And so I really feel like this is a skill that we just have to get, develop, and get better.
And so like I think about even my family growing up, we didn't deal with hard stuff. We just shoved it under the rug and assumed that if you just gave it enough time, it would go away. So I didn't come into ministry or leadership. Having good skills. And so I think we gotta get much better about giving people skills, and I think we gotta get really granular on techniques about.
How do you do this? How do you start a conversation? How do you come out of the conversation? What are some of the landmines you wanna stay away from when you're in those conversations? And the good news is there's a lot more out there. I've written some on this, but I, I, I think two [00:20:00] good resources I would recommend are, uh, Susan Scott's book, fierce Conversations.
Mm-hmm. Really helpful, admire my journey with this and in the book Crucial Conversations. Yeah. Which is again, very practical. And so I think, again, if we don't do this, if we don't lean into this, we create an unintentional, unhealthy culture. And that's not true. Unity, you know? Just because we're all nice and diplomatic doesn't mean we have true unity.
I mean, you could test that against the hallway conversations that often happen in local churches or ministries or businesses. Right? Yeah. So yeah, I just think this is one of those, like if you're gonna have a healthy leadership culture and be healthy and rooted in the right way, you've got to get some training around this and start modeling it.
Right? Right. Like, hey, we, we keep short accounts and we get in the room and. We are committed to loving each other, but walking into the deep waters of conflict and [00:21:00] coming out on the other side, unified and resolved and, you know, humble that we all gotta learn how to do this better.
James: Yeah, and I think that's one of the things that's probably important in leadership training and development and leadership culture and organizations, is sometimes we talk about big ideas.
Well, we had to have better communication or better. Conversations, but the actual real granular, how do you actually do it? And you know, was it, see, see John Run or whatever. The old book was like, here's how you do it. And I, and I think so many organizations, we have values or we have ideas, we have these guiding principles, but a lot of 'em are theoretical or philosophical.
And when you get down in the organization, depending on how large a large your organization is. It's translated so differently or heard so differently. And so as leaders, I think it to kind of go, how do we build structure that actually helps all the way down to the lowest [00:22:00] levels of organization know how to be healthy in their conversations, healthy in their leadership, and, and lead up in those areas.
And I'm interested in this area of terminal lightness. How could that be ultimately destructive to a, a organization, whether that's a church or. How does that play out, do you think, long term?
Lance: If you, in a culture of terminal niceness? Yeah. Yeah. I think, well, I think first off, it creates a false sense of unity.
Like we, we all get along in the meeting or publicly, but behind closed doors and private conversations, there's gossip, there's criticism, there's judgmentalism. We end up talking about people rather than talking to people. Then I think it creates like this duplicitous sort of like, oh, you gotta act this way to kind of create this, uh, outward image or posture.
But behind the scenes, the culture is we really, that's where the real [00:23:00] conversations happen. And so I think over time what that creates is toxicity. Yeah. And people kind of know like, oh yeah, you can't really have honest conversations here. We just pretend and we get along publicly. But beneath the surface, it's pretty unhealthy.
And, and, and, you know, it's like we, we wash the outside of the wound, but there's an infection underneath the surface that everybody's just kind of ignoring. And I always say to senior leaders, like, if you let this stuff go on and you know it's there, but you're ignoring it or neglecting it. Ultimately you will undermine your own leadership with the rest of the team because they see it and they wonder why you're not doing anything about it.
Mm-hmm. Why are you letting unhealthy stuff continue to go on inside the culture? And so ultimately you erode your own leadership if you, if you don't, you know, course correct this stuff. Yeah.
James: It's so good. You know, as we mentioned earlier, there's, [00:24:00] you know, so many advances and things have come so far from 20 years ago of.
Self-care, not feeling as selfish as it did before, but yeah. I, I'm interested from your perspective as you work with organizations, work with church and so forth, the complexity of leadership today, what the new challenges have come because of just where society is today. The challenges specifically to, uh, spiritual and emotional health.
Like where, where are you seeing that today? We are in those areas.
Lance: Yeah, I just think, um, you know, as an old guy now in most of the rooms I sit in working with teams like I, I look people down and go, Hey, the generation in which you're doing ministry is more complex than any in my lifetime. And I really think it is true, like it is more challenging.
To serve and ministry and nonprofits and, you know, Christian businesses than it ever was in the last 50 years. So the culture overall has, has just become more hostile, right? Mm-hmm. And then the cultural issues [00:25:00] that are now the. Forcing the church to respond are more complicated. Right? We didn't have identity, gender identity issues 25 years ago.
Um, so we didn't have cancel culture in the way that it expresses itself now. Right? Social media was not a phenomenon 30 years ago. Yeah. So. So I think all of those things have added to the complexity and then we're just in a politically volatile culture now, and it, it just shows up in so many different ways.
So I do think as a leader you better be secure in yourself. You better have a backbone and you better have thick skin, right? And know that your identity is in Jesus and not in what other people think about you. And so one of the key concepts I really have resonated with in my life the last 15 years is this idea of differentiation.
And differentiation simply means I am able to live in a way that I can [00:26:00] be connected to you. I can be present when we're together. I can love you well, but I don't need anything from you. I don't. Need your affirmation or validation. I don't need your approval like I am differentiated. And so again, I'm not disconnected.
I am engaged and and loving people well and up close and personal ways, but I also now am so clear about my identity and who I am in Christ and what I'm called to, that I don't need something unhealthy from you to make me feel better about myself. And I think when you are differentiated. It's really the first time that you can love people well, because you don't need anything from them.
Yeah. So you can really give yourself to them in a very complete way. And so I think we've got to learn those more soft skills if we're gonna be healthy in this complex culture we're living in.
James: [00:27:00] So I would say that probably one of the key things that I've learned from you, and maybe one of your key messages is the whole idea of Sabbath.
And around Sabbath. So you would say that's accurate that, 'cause I think you've taught me so much about that, but can you talk a little bit about, help us understand what Sabbath is, and also I know that you have a framework that you use for Sabbath. Oh. And so, [00:28:00] and you know, Sabbath is kind of a spiritual word, but we, we all need Sabbath.
Right. And so talk to us a little bit about that, your understanding, and then share just a little bit about your framework for Sabbath.
Lance: Yeah. Well, the word is not particularly a spiritual word in Hebrew. It just means to stop or to quit, and basically the command of God going all the way back to creation, and God roots it into creation, and he says, when I created the world on the seventh day, I rested not because I needed a break or I was exhausted, God says, but because I was wanting to model something for you because.
Being created in my image. I want you to know that you have built into your DNA this need to have a rhythm of work hard and then rest, produce, and then create space to restore. And so God establish this rhythm of one day in seven being a day that is not about work, not about being productive, but a day to stop [00:29:00] and to.
Not let it be about doing, but rather about being. And so like you mentioned, I use kind of a five part template because I think Sabbath looks different depending on the season that you're in. So you know, I start with prepare that you've gotta, there's some work ahead of getting ready to not work, some things that might need to be organized and arranged so you can stop and then to actually stop, like stop from all the stuff that is your vocation and.
Obligation and work and like put that on the shelf for 24 hours and guess what? The world can get by without you for 24 hours. And then there's rest That's built into what God said it is to be a day of rest. That it, it is the word, which means to be at peace, to be not only. To like physically sleep, but to have emotional rest as I stop from all the stuff of the demands of my life.
And then delight, like we [00:30:00] ought to do some things on Sabbath that put life in us. Like what do you do that brings you delight and joy? And then I think it's also a day of worship. It is called a Sabbath unto the Lord. And so it is also for extended times of music and, and spiritual praise of. Times in prayer lingering over scripture.
And so I think to take those five words and go, yeah, what would it look like for you to prayer, stop, rest, delight, and worship on a Sabbath? And couple of practical things. I would just give coaching on this. James would be like, first off. Get it on your schedule. Mm-hmm. And get ahead of your current commitments and establish this one in seven rhythm.
Because of my travel, I can't do Sabbath the same day every week, but it's on my schedule. This one in seven rhythm and then call it Sabbath.
James: Hmm.
Lance: Sabbath means something different than a day off for most of us. Our days off. Just work of a different kind.
James: Yeah.
Lance: And then I would just like go, [00:31:00] if I can sit down with someone and have a cup of coffee about this and go, Hey, just give yourself some grace.
Start where you are and grow into over time the practice of a full Sabbath and crafted in a way that fits your season of life. And I would tell you, it was really hard for me when I first started doing this. Honestly, I hated it because even if I was stopped on the outside, on the inside, my RPMs were redlining.
Mm-hmm. It took a while to learn how to slow down my soul, but I will tell you, it is really worth fighting for. Yeah. And it is such a life giving practice once you really begin to develop it.
James: Yeah. Would you be open to just sharing a little bit of your rhythm of what the Sabbath look like for you?
Lance: Yeah.
Most of the time we start, um, in the morning, but sometimes. We will start later in the day, but when I'm able to start a Sabbath in the morning, I'm always the first one out of bed in my house. So it means getting [00:32:00] coffee. It means just getting out a good book or get, you know, my Bible. And usually it's both.
Um, I take some extended time to read. I love to read and grow, but I'm, I'm looking for something that is life giving to me, not something that's like preparing a talk. Or, you know, planning a leadership lesson, it's like, what? What's enjoyable? So the last few years I've got into reading historical fiction and I've loved that.
I usually spend some time doing that. Connie will usually then get up, we usually have coffee together some more time. Sometimes we live in Colorado where the weather's great most of the year. So we sit out and just enjoy, uh, being together. I usually am like looking to do something fun and life giving, like I'm.
I go to the gym, I'll maybe hit some golf balls, do a bike ride, some of that kind of thing. We usually try not to make a Sabbath a day where there's not a lot of like. Cooking and prep or house cleaning, like we [00:33:00] try to keep that stuff simple and light. And that's partially Sabbath oriented and it's part of, it's just getting older.
We wanna keep life. Yeah, simple. We try to do stuff that's more about relationships, you know, so maybe we'll have dinner with a couple or maybe Connie and I will just do a quiet dinner together. I usually involve some kind of a nap. You know, I just enjoy a quiet day. But I think it's important to, to say to people, a Sabbath doesn't mean it's 24 hours sitting in your recliner.
Yeah. Like I'm an active person, right? So piddling around in my yard or messing with the flowers or mowing my yard. That's not gonna work to me. It's not what I do vocationally. And so it, it's life giving. Now I have to be careful 'cause occasionally Connie will go to me, Hey, your Sabbath doesn't seem like it's always very restful.
Right? So I do have to be careful that even though it's life giving to me, I wanna make sure that I get to the end of my day and it, I feels like a day of rest, not a day of just [00:34:00] endless activity.
James: Yeah. I, I, I think that's a, a great thing because like for me, Saturdays are Sabbath. And that's when I always go out and do my longest bike ride of the week.
And I come home sweating, exhausted and tired, but it's life giving to me. It's, yeah, there's a joy to it that can't do that in my regular work week, but it, it is life giving. I usually get a nap, which is part of it too. But a lot of those same rhythms of trying to put aside the, the typical task of the week and really enjoying just relationship.
Enjoying the being together and so forth. So, so you say sometimes in seasons. Sabbath changes. Anything that you would say to maybe a leader who's listening that to give them some license or some freedom to kind of go, it doesn't have to be static, you know, you know, you talked a little bit. Yeah.
Sometimes you start in the evening, sometimes you start in the morning. Anything else you would add there that would just help a leader kind of go, man, how do I, how do I actually do this in my, the busyness? What are some first steps [00:35:00] I can do to begin implementing this? Powerful
Lance: tool. Yeah, and I would say like for some people, like if, even if you started with a half a day, I think you also have to realize the season that you're in.
'cause if you got young kids, Sabbath is gonna look different than it does for me as an empty nester. Right? But I think this is where you have to go back and really study it for yourself. Because I think unless you have a theological like biblical conviction, like, hey, this is actually for my best, is something God commanded.
Therefore, I'm gonna commit myself to it, even though it may be challenging to figure it out. I would say also pay attention to what is life giving to you. Mm-hmm. And try to be intentional to craft or schedule a couple of things that are life giving to you and to that Sabbath, whether there's half a day, a full day, whether you start in the evening.
However you do it. I think what's important is this rhythm of one in seven. And then here's another piece I would say really get [00:36:00] intentional about managing your technology on your sti. Because I feel like we get sucked into this black hole of doom scrolling, or a lot of our work shows up on, you know, email or texting or, you know, those kinds of things.
So I go, man, be really intentional. Get some really like clear guidelines of. What technology and how it's gonna show up and how it impacts your Sabbath. So I would say that would be a really practical help as well.
James: That's good. That's so good. Okay. I want to turn to a corner to talking to about leaders who maybe are listening and just feeling spent.
They're feeling burnt out. They're feeling just tired. What would you be your first piece of advice or some, some wisdom you would give to help them turn towards a journey of health and healing if they're in that space?
Lance: Yeah, I think a lot of us, our natural default response in a moment like that is to look for an escape.
[00:37:00] Like, I gotta get out of town, I gotta get a few days of vacation. That might be part of the answer, but I would say if you're really struggling with like really feeling burned out, like you know, the vacation didn't do it for you, like you're still in that place, I think you gotta go inward and you've gotta begin to ask like what's, what's at the deeper root of why I end up feeling burned out?
Because you didn't get there overnight and I was. Tell people the first step to burnout is you love what you do. Mm. Because when you love what you do, you give your all and you're all in and in ministry that's kind of baked in anyway, right? Yeah. Because you're doing it for God and for Jesus. And so I think you gotta go inward and explore like your family of origin, do a genogram.
And then what was really helpful for me, James, was begin to read books mm-hmm. That are about the health of the soul and about like. [00:38:00] How do you navigate your way out of a season of burnout? And I, I remember many years ago reading Wayne Cordero's book, leading On Empty as he went through his own experience of kind of hitting the wall.
And you know, you might need to get with a therapist or a counselor or get some spiritual direction. And then I think like, you gotta get so tenacious. I use this phrase a lot and you've heard me use this James. You gotta grab your calendar by the throat. And because if you're gonna get outta burnout, you gotta establish some new rhythms.
And my experience with high capacity driver type A leaders is you won't tweak your way there. You're gonna have to make a radical recalibration mm-hmm. Of your world. And, and then I would also say. You gotta start finding some things that give you life outside of your job or ministry.
James: Yeah.
Lance: So that you are tempted to just work all the time.
When I was in my [00:39:00] years at Saddleback and I'd get invited to go for a bike ride or go play round of golf or do a hike, I remember thinking to myself, are you kidding me? Do you know how much work I could get done in the three or four hours it would take to do that? And it didn't sound life-giving to me at all.
But now that I have life-giving hobbies. Those things like, no, I actually want to, and I find myself drawn and thinking about like, how can I get out on on a bike or go hit some golf balls? And so I think those are a few things I would try to put on the radar of someone who is feeling like that. Yeah.
James: Yeah. I feel like I know you, I've heard you talk many times about ambition and so many leaders are so ambitious that it's hard to take yourself out of the. You know, the center of everything and to actually feel like you can say no when, you know. One of the things I, I always find is that some of the leaders at, you know, top levels of leadership.
Had the hardest time saying no to anything. And they're like, my calendar's so full. And I'm like, [00:40:00] you are ridiculously in control of your life. You're, you actually have more control than anybody else in the organization of your life. And I, I don't know if it's the ambition piece or just the, the weight of feeling like it's all on our shoulders, that we have a hard time really getting a hold of our calendar and, you know, radically changing the disciplines or the patterns of behavior.
That we have in our, in our calendar. Right?
Lance: Yeah. I think for many years I can describe it now, pretty clearly, I wouldn't have been able to always, but I had what I would call a faulty theology of availability. Mm-hmm. I thought if there was a need, because I was a leader in a ministry, like I, I had to always say yes.
Or if somebody asked me, I always had to say yes, and yet I challenge you, like read the gospels. That's not how Jesus lived his life. He said no, he embraced, you know, human limits. He, he got away from the crowd. And so I think [00:41:00] I remember, you know, kind of always feeling like, well, I'll just find a way to squeeze it in.
Well, that's a dumb way to live, you know? Um, so I think there's all these issues we're talking about. They run on two rails. There's the internal rail and the external. Internal is getting down to the deep why, what's driving me to that? What's behind all that? But then I have to manage it externally. And so again, I love this verse in First Thessalonians where Paul says, make it your ambition.
So there's that ambition word. Mm-hmm. But he surprises us with his next phrase when he says, make it your ambition to lead a quiet life. Come on. Like I go, wow, what if I put my highest ambition and energy into like just. Living a great Tuesday and making good decisions today and living by my priorities this Thursday.
Like what if I just focused on that and then was willing to say no to the things that are not my highest priorities and be [00:42:00] okay with the fact some people might be disappointed in that. Right?
James: Yeah. That's so good. So.
Lance: We could spend all day on this one. This. That's so good. This one's got, got a lot of,
James: lot of layers to it and, and the reality is, high capacity leaders, doesn't matter what field you're in, struggle with this because there is the demand of leadership that's real.
Like people are counting on you. They're depending upon you for guidance, for leadership, for direction, for vision, for strategy. But you're also the only person as the leader of an organization, of a business, of a church that has complete control. To kind of set the pace for yourself. And then I'd also say the pace you set for yourself is the pace that the rest of the organization's gonna feel.
Right? Exactly.
Lance: Yeah. And I remember coming to a place in my life where I had to own, like I was not the victim, I was the perpetrator. Mm-hmm. And that was a significant mind shift for me to go, Hey Lance, no one is holding a gun [00:43:00] to your head. You have way more autonomy. Over your schedule and over your commitments, then you're pretending that you do.
Mm-hmm. And so, you know, you've gotta learn how to stop. And one of the thing biggest, practical steps James had helped me is I tried to stop saying yes in the moment. Yeah. Like to put some space between someone's request of me and my commitment to do it. Like because one, then I can really evaluate, is this line up with my prayer?
Is this something that only I can do or should do? What are the implications of my yes to this? Often it's not as innocent as it feels in that moment, and putting space between the request and my commitment allows me to evaluate Albas and make an informed response to that person.
James: I wanna talk about the one life process because what you've created is such an incredible tool.
Both, um, my wife Lisa, and I are certified in it. Lisa's actually been doing some life plans and, uh, one life process [00:44:00] plans. And talk to us about, about the one life process, why it's powerful, and helping leaders get clarity in their leadership, in their, in their life and their, the purpose and their vision.
Lance: Yeah. Well, it's kind of a. Basically a one-on-one process where you spend a couple of days and then there's a, some coaching sessions built into the, the process, the way we train people in it, and I've had people ask me like, what makes this transformative? And it's not rocket science, but it's really a combination.
I think of two or three things that make it powerful. One is. Rarely in your life are you gonna set aside two whole days to process sort of everything in your world? Mm-hmm. Where are you right now? What are your superpowers as far as your gifts and talents? What about your family of origin and you know, the stuff you picked up growing up and you know, and then talking about like, what is your true north, what's your life purpose and what's your vision for your preferred future?
What is your life manifesto? [00:45:00] It's a set of declarations about how you're gonna live your life and what do you need in your life to stay replenished. And so we take a very holistic approach looking at eight different spheres of your life and come out on the other end with a bit of a game plan. And so I think some of it is like we actually set aside time mm-hmm.
To have unhurried conversation and then we have a, a logic and a flow and a process with the power of the Holy Spirit. When we work the plan, we get to some really good clarity and then hopefully you have a good facilitator who can ask you self discovery questions that allow you to get to the clarity that you really long for on your life.
And so to me that's kind of, if I was gonna say like what helps it really be that it's, it's really the combination of those things, but again, been in our life where we really sitting down to go. Am I living well? The one and only life I'm ever gonna have.
James: Yeah.
Lance: Like you [00:46:00] get one shot at this so it matters.
And getting really clear around. What is my true north and what is my preferred future and how do I wanna invest in my family in this season? Like what matters to me? Like, so we do this one tool called My Deepest Desires, where we talk around about like what matters most to you at the end of the day.
Like what makes you come alive? Mm-hmm. What is fulfilling and brings you satisfaction and what would you regret it if you never got around to it? Hmm. And what do you want to be in your eulogy? What must you do at the end of the day? Take away all the clutter. What must you do with your one and only life?
So these are not lighthearted questions. There's some depth to this, and I love spending time helping people figure that stuff out.
James: Do you have a, a quick story, um, of somebody that you've worked with that the one life process was just talking about all the things we [00:47:00] talked about, ambition, sabbath, some of these burnout tools and so forth.
Anybody that comes to mind that was just like, this process was just radically transformational in their life?
Lance: Yeah, I mean, I, I've had the chance to do several lately. I think about a guy who was a worship leader in a really well-known church, and just as he came he and he had stepped away from that position and he's been experimenting with several things, like in terms of what he does after, you know, his full-time church staff role.
And there's the financial implications, but there's also the, what is that I'm made to do? Mm-hmm. And what makes me come alive. And part of the breakthrough for him, I think, was discovering out of his family of origin, what was the internal narrative that had been a limiting lid that was really based on a lie.
Hmm. That was, that he was believing. And I [00:48:00] just remember the moment and we, we talked around us for 30 minutes or so, and finally him just coming to the place where the lie that he was believing was, I'm not man enough. And then the breakthrough of that, what God has for him is that he would be a Gideon, that he would be a valiant warrior, and the breakthrough of that moment.
Of just the power of that, like being able to name and begin to tame that lie and then how can I now begin to walk out into God's truth and then getting really clear around what he is made to do and how he can add value to people. Like just, I think, again, good guy already, you know, doing some good things, but it just brought focus for him to be able to really optimize.
His one and only life.
James: I love it. I love it. And I know you've worked with so many leaders and have brought so much, uh, resource and hope and strength [00:49:00] to that have maybe found them, se themselves kind of unrooted or unhealthy in seasons and, uh, what you bring to the kingdom, what you bring to leaders as such a, a powerful thing.
Okay. So a couple things to kind of wrap up our conversation. So Sure. One of the things that, um, people ought to know about you and I, Lance, is we both love to read and typically we're texting one another maybe every two months, kinda going, what are you reading? So, I haven't texted you lately, so I'm gonna take the opportunity right now.
What are you reading right now that I should read or other people should read?
Lance: Oh wow. So I'm always on reading on sort of the health of the soul and the health of life. So I've been reading, uh, a book called Sacred Rest that's been quite good by Sandra Dalton Smith. Really been enjoying that. Also read, uh, not a Christian book, but the book into thin air about the disastrous, not Everest, Everest.
James: It's a great book.
Lance: You know, uh, I think in the [00:50:00] late nineties, I believe is when it happened, but a fabulous, captivating read. I also read recently Beth Moore's autobiography called All My Nodded Up Life. It is fabulous and profound and. I think anybody in the world of church should read it. It's really good.
And then I'll give you one more. I just started into John Ortberg's new book called Steps. It's basically a book about discipleship. Based on the 12 steps of recovery. Okay. And or Berg's just a good writer. He always has great content. And so I've been reading Plead that book recently. So you've, you've been reading
James: a lot of stuff lately.
So I got one for you since I, I'll give you something. I have uh, Admiral William McCraven. You ever read his stuff? I think he wrote leaders. Oh, I know of
Lance: him. Yeah. I watched his commencement speech he did at the University of Texas.
James: He's, he's really great. I got into his stuff quite a bit and, um, his book, the Hero Code is [00:51:00] a quick read, but it's, it's a, it's a good, really like daily, kind of like, okay, each one, each chapter has like one code, like on honesty or humor and stuff.
Like, it's, it's been a real, it's some really good stuff in it. A lot of his stories from the military when he, uh, ran the special ops for the US government, so pretty cool. So.
Lance: I know if you recommend it, I will like it. So anything you recommend, pretty, you've cost me hundreds of dollars. James, same here, man.
We, we've,
James: we've spent a lot of each other's money on books, so. Yes, exactly. Well, Lance Man, thank you so much for being on the podcast. It's. Always, like every time we have a conversation, every time you're on the podcast or I get the chance just to, uh, pick your brain. It's just a wealth of knowledge. And I'm gonna put in the show notes, all the places that people can connect with.
You learn more about the one life process and and you offer a certification opportunity for that as well. Yeah. For people who wanna, uh, be a part of that. Right? So I'll put that information in there as well so they can reach out to you. So. Man. Thank you so [00:52:00] much, man. I really appreciate you. Love you, brother.
Lance: Well love you too, and thank you for what you're doing. You are such a blessing to us personally, but to see how God is using you in the lives of other leaders and how you continue to grow and develop inspires me and just you and Lisa are for Connie and I, one of our favorite couples. So we love it when we get to hang out together.
James: I hope you were impacted by that conversation as much as I was. It's not every day. You get to hear from someone who spent decades helping leaders pursue health beneath the surface. What stood out to me was the reminder that self-care isn't selfish. It's stewardship Lance Wit's. Insights about grabbing your calendar by the throat a timely challenge for anyone feeling stretched thin. And I wanna encourage you to go back and review his framework for Sabbath It's more than just rest, but restoration.
It offers a powerful rhythm for sustainable soul rooted leadership. if you wanna learn more about Lance's work or the one life process, include how to go through it or become certified to lead others through it. Check out [00:53:00] the links in the show notes. And if you haven't already, I wanna encourage you to start your leadership Live Lead last.com/reset. It's a free five day journey to help you refocus your priorities and lead from a deeper place of clarity and purpose. you're looking for weekly insights to stay grounded and growing, don't forget to subscribe to Rooted.
It's my weekly leadership email. Just text grow GROW to 6, 6, 8, 6, 6 to sign up, and I love to stay connected. Find me on Instagram or LinkedIn. Just search the James Duvall. if this episode encouraged you, would you take a moment to rate, review, or share it with someone in your world. It helps more leaders discover conversations like this one and stay committed to living and leading Well, thanks again for listening and I'll see you next week on the Live Lead, last podcast.