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For over 25 years Proverbs 31 Ministries' mission has been to intersect God's Word in the real, hard places we all struggle with. That's why we started this podcast. Every episode will feature a variety of teachings from president Lysa TerKeurst, staff members or friends of the ministry who can teach you something valuable from their vantage point. We hope that regardless of your age, background or stage of life, it's something you look forward to listening to each month!
Kaley Olson: Hi, friends. Happy New Year. Welcome to 2025 and our first episode of the year. Thanks so much for tuning in to The Proverbs 31 Ministries Podcast, where we share biblical Truth for any girl in any season. I'm your host, Kaley Olson, and soon I'll be joined by my co-host, Kendra LeGrand, as well as our guest teacher for this episode, Megan Fate Marshman. And, y'all, I have a lot to say about how much Megan's teaching on today's episode has already meant to me. Typically, we record our introductions immediately after recording the full episode with the guest, but we ran out of time to do that. So here I am solo, a few weeks later. And here's what I have to say: Her teaching connects to the topic of her book, Relaxed: Walking with the One Who Is Not Worried about a Thing. Megan is an amazing steward of God's Word. She's so relatable and so rich in wisdom.
Here are two of my top takeaways from her teaching. No. 1: Knowing there's a problem I need to fix and then trying to fix it myself is the reason I stay stuck in an unrelaxed mindset. And No. 2: Having a community to carry your burdens with you can help your spirit relax when, on your own, it would be virtually impossible to do so. I have a lot more takeaways, but those are just my top two for you guys, and I really can't wait for you to get to listen to the full teaching.
But before I turn it over to Megan, I wanted to let you know that her book Relaxed is what our Circle 31 Book Club will be reading starting February 1. After hearing this teaching, I'm sure it'll be a book you want to dive into, and Circle 31 Book Club is the community that will not only embrace you with open arms but will challenge you to take the principles found in Megan's book, hold them up to Scripture, and allow God to do the work only He can do in your life. If you are not a member of Circle 31, then click the link in the show notes to learn more and sign up for free!
Alrighty, let's dive into today's episode.
Kaley Olson: Alright, friends. We are so excited to welcome our friend Megan Fate Marshman to the show today. Hello. Hi. How are you doing?
Megan Fate Marshman: Here we are. I'm doing very well. How about yourself?
Kaley Olson: Doing so good. You guys can't see Megan, but y'all, it's cold in the studio where we're recording. And I have a wearable blanket with —
Megan Fate Marshman: It's like a —
Kendra LeGrand: Snuggie. Yeah.
Kaley Olson: — that I gave her to wear. And so she's wearing a hug.
Megan Fate Marshman: I am wearing a hug.
Kaley Olson: Are you nice and toasty?
Megan Fate Marshman: You know what? I think everyone needs a hug today as they listen to our voices. So if you just wanna give yourself one, that's wonderful, or maybe give one away, you know? Take Jesus' advice: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. And if you don't have a wearable hug, go give one away.
Kaley Olson: She's already bringing the Word. Well, guys, for those of you who don't know her, allow me to introduce you. First, Megan is a mom of two young boys — so we know she's really in the trenches, y'all, just like me. Like, boy moms around the table right now … We're in the trenches. Megan is passionate about teaching God's Word and serves as the teaching pastor at Willow Creek Community Church, and she's even currently working on her doctorate degree.
[To Megan:] What? Where are you with that? How's it going?
Megan Fate Marshman: Only a dissertation left.
Kaley Olson: Oh, man.
Megan Fate Marshman: Halfway through that guy. I know.
Kaley Olson: Wow. That's amazing. Congratulations. Thank you. And she's the author of her latest release, titled Relax, as well as several other books and Bible studies.
She's here today because we're reading Relaxed in February with our Circle 31 Book Club friends, and we cannot wait to talk with her more about this life-changing book.
Kendra LeGrand: We're so excited to read it in Circle 31. But before we get into your teaching, Megan, since your book is called Relaxed, let's see how relaxed you can be with a little healthy game of “Truth or Dare.” Are you ready?
Megan Fate Marshman: Oh, wow.
Kaley Olson: Does that make your heart beat? I know.
Kendra LeGrand: A little faster?
Megan Fate Marshman: Yeah. It feels like the opposite of relaxing. That would be —
Kendra LeGrand: — a little fun. So alright. Before I read you the prompts: truth or dare?
Megan Fate Marshman: Oh, I have to choose the word.
Kaley Olson: Yeah. Yeah.
Megan Fate Marshman: OK. I'm gonna go with …
Kendra LeGrand: Dare. Dare. OK. Give us your best farm animal impression.
Megan Fate Marshman: Oh, wow.
Kendra LeGrand: And maybe if we're lucky, somebody else will do one.
Megan Fate Marshman: Oh, I think we actually are lucky, aren’t we? Because I'm not here by myself. Kaley loaned me this jacket, which oddly enough … The inside feels more like a barnyard animal. But I'm gonna send it over to Kaley because there's nothing in me that wants to do a barnyard animal sound, but I just did.
Kaley Olson: I am good at chickens. I'm ready. OK. [Makes a chicken sound.]
Megan Fate Marshman: Oh, wow.
Kaley Olson: OK. I know. That's great. Right?
Megan Fate Marshman: Welcome to the podcast.
Kaley Olson: You never know … One more [round]!
Kendra LeGrand: [Another] round, Megan.
Kaley Olson: Oh, here's another one.
Kendra LeGrand: Yeah. Truth or dare?
Megan Fate Marshman: Oh, let's go “truth” on this one.
Kaley Olson: OK.
Kendra LeGrand: What's a song you scream in your car but would be embarrassed if anyone caught you singing it?
Megan Fate Marshman: Oh. Well, yeah. The Wicked soundtrack just came out, so I'd probably be going for that, and I don't have the type of voice that can go super high. Oh. So the only reason for that is I can't … I think I might be a tenor. It would be my attempt at going to “defy gravity” because my voice will not. [I don’t] even know.
Kaley Olson: I'll try it. [Singing:] Dooo-oo-own. Like that? Yeah. Yeah.
Megan Fate Marshman: Yeah. Maybe bring it down an octave.
Kaley Olson: Maybe one more time. [Sings.] Awesome. That was great. Alright. Alright. I like having fun with our teachers because here's the thing: We're all, like, friends, and we're all normal people around this table. And I love that we can have fun but then also settle down and get to hear what's on your heart and what the Lord really has given you to share with us.
And so, guys, I'm sure if you're like me, when you heard us say Megan is here to give a teaching based on her book Relaxed, you probably thought, I'm not sure what she's going to share, but I'm sure I need to hear it. And I know I do.
Kendra, I'm sure you do too. So, Megan, why don't you take it away?
Megan Fate Marshman: Oh, yeah. So this book began in one of my doctoral classes. I remember the class, and I remember sitting there, and a concept was brought up, and I immediately thought in my head, I'm gonna write a book about that. So it's wild being here 2.5 years later, having done it. But here was the concept: We were talking in class about original sin, like, what it means to be born into sin. And it's one of those, like, yucky things that you go like … Yeah. So that sucks for all of us except for Adam and Eve. We are born into original sin, but what does that even mean? And so we talked about, you know, the concept of, like, idolatry, how there's this kind of God-sized hole in our heart and how we try to fill it.
And we learn as, like, little kids how to fill that. Right? We fill it with our parents' approval or coaches that, you know, affirm us, or we find friendship, and it feels good. So we learn to kinda take this God-sized hole and fill it with things, but then suddenly when you come to faith, the Holy Spirit begins to dwell in your heart, in that God-sized hole that only He fits. But it doesn't keep us from still going back to idolatry, still trying to fill it with all these things that have worked in the past.
And the weird part is, it feels like it still continues to work, doesn't it? I remember early on in doing ministry, I had this, like, illustration based out of Ephesians 3, that prayer that Paul prays for the Ephesians church in between telling them who they are in Christ and then that second half where he's like, “And here's how to live like it.” And in the middle, he gives that prayer that they would know how loved they are. And the visual I always have is of a cup. You know, God fills us with His love, so you have a cup … and I remember going to church and being told, like, “Go love people,” and I ran around with my little cup of love, and I'd splash love on everybody. And then as I was doing that, because I was told to, I developed a really unhealthy habit, which was taking my cup and loving people, which is good, but then I would hold out my now-empty cup in their direction to be filled up by their opinions of me. And that's the God-sized hole.
Is even if the Holy Spirit dwells within me, that doesn't keep me from taking my cup and pointing it toward my friends or other people who I want to like — or men who I want to make my relationship status different [because] I wanna be filled with a different relationship status. Or once I got married, I wanted to turn it toward [mu husband] and be filled up by his opinions of me. Or then I had kids, and I would hold my empty cup in their direction and, you know, [want them to] make me look good.
And the problem is twofold: First, it doesn't work eternally, but then secondly, the other problem is it kind of feels like it does at times. Like, if people like me, I feel filled up. What happens when they don't? What happens when you're disappointed? What happens when you feel empty? Do we just run on empty?
What's the point, and what do we do? And so in that class, we just talked about, like, the temptation to do one of two things: either continue living in that idolatry of being filled by even some of the best things or … Then [the professor] brought up a concept that was brand-new to me. He said the other temptation is to live in Christian autonomy. And I was like, What?
“Autonomy” is a really positive word. Like we want our kids to grow and become autonomous. Right? They wanna be independent, and they can take care of themselves — but that's a problem because our culture values independence, and yet our Christian faith encourages dependence. So how do we do it? And from that day forward, I went on a journey. And I wondered, Why do we do this? Why do we try to live in the power of ourselves, or should I say the weakness of the flesh? Why — why do we do this? How do we do this? And how can we live in a way that's not doing that?
And when I thought about all those reasons and studied God's Word through this, I landed on writing a book based out of Proverbs 3:5-6, a passage that we all know we all love, and what it tangibly means when it comes to that God-sized hole, the fact that the Holy Spirit lives there, but we don't wanna keep our cups on our side … Here's the invitation from the Lord: “Trust in the Lᴏʀᴅ with all your heart …” Even as I'm saying this, some people are already reciting it with me, right? “Lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways submit to him, and he will make your paths straight” (Proverbs 3:5-6, NIV).
I love it. It becomes the relationship. This passage does a great job of [showing] the opposite of autonomy. Autonomy is trying to get better by yourself. This encourages a very different direction — and it's God’s Word.
And the reason this is so significant is because we're not even conscious of all the ways that we're living autonomously. Here's an example: You sit in on church on Sunday morning, and your pastor gets up and gives an amazing message on prayer, and you sit there in that moment and go, That's true. I wanna get better at that. You know what?I'm gonna get better at that. And the next morning, you try to get better at that. And then by Wednesday, you forget. So thankfully, there's midweek or whatever … and here's the interesting question: Where is God in that equation of your growth? Whose job is it to grow you? Even on these, like, wonderful … We hear this all the time. Hopefully every time you're in a book club or a Bible study or on a Sunday morning, you're hearing a Christian ideal. The Bible is full of Christian ideals of how we ought to live. The problem is we don't.
And so here's the question. If there's a standard of how to live, and then there's the reality of where we're actually at, and there's a gap between the two … Here's the question I wanna ask everyone listening today: What do you do with that gap? What do you do with the fact that you're not as you should be?
I think so many of us, like … I can imagine some of you just wanna do the “quiet time,” but you're just tired. And maybe you've done the quiet time in the past, and it hasn't felt like it really did much to shrink that gap, and you just kind of …
Here are the three great temptations. This was in an article written by Dr. John Coe. He talks about the three temptations. When you think about it, the theological term would be that “sanctification gap,” the gap between where we're at and where we wanna be. Here's the three temptations:
No. 1 is despair. And despair can look absolutely like a depression. But I see it rampant in the church, and it looks kinda like this — maybe you can relate. You hear the Christian ideal, and you try. And the truth is you've tried for years. You've tried to do Bible studies. You've tried to, like, have your quiet time. You make the coffee. You take a picture of it. It all is going well, but you can't seem to focus. And you've been doing it for years, and so when you feel kind of discouraged, you're like, I'm gonna keep showing up to church, but hopefully that person will encourage me to keep trying … Despair looks like this, I think, for a lot of people: I just don't feel like I'm gonna get it, and it feels like other people do, so I'm just gonna keep listening to them. And what we do is we settle for a “valley of dry bones” spirituality (see Ezekiel 37). We become very discontent there. We just live there, wondering if it will ever get different for us. So [we say,] “I'll buy the next book. I'll try the next thing. Hopefully it will keep me motivated to keep trying.” That’s despair. That's the first temptation.
The second temptation — I wonder if people have seen this, whether in their own lives or in the life of someone else — is the temptation that you feel a little bit even though you can be secure in Christ. The second one is the immoral temptation. And so if there's a gap between where I'm at and where I wanna be … Imagine taking your hands and creating a literal gap: Up here is where I wanna be, and down here is where I'm at. The immoral temptation is to think, Wait. So if I'm gonna show up to a book club or Bible study, and I'm gonna constantly feel like I'm not as I should be … Nah. I'm gonna go find a different gap that I have the potential of closing. And you see this ramp — I mean, think about people who have left the Church. They don't wanna be reminded that they're not as they should be. They're trying. And so what they do is they go find a different ladder to climb. Like success, financial success. I wanna go find a relationship. I'm gonna go find any other way to fill my cup, or that emptiness that I feel at the depth of my being, and I'm gonna find something that I feel like I have more control over.
Isn't it weird when it kinda makes a little bit of sense? That second temptation would be the immoral temptation.
And the third temptation — this one surprised me, and I write about it in the book — is the moral temptation. What? How are those two words side by side and friends: “moral” and “temptation”? Doesn't “moral” mean “good”? Yes. How is moral[ity] a temptation? Here's what it is: a temptation to try to shrink the gap by yourself. [You think,] I'm gonna get better at that. This is what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna pray more. I'm gonna get up earlier. I'm gonna go to bed earlier. I'm gonna stop looking at my phone. How many of those millions of decisions have you made over a lifetime?
And in light of these temptations, here's where we find the best response, the most beautiful response, which I think is why we can lean into Proverbs 3:5-6. The best response to the fact that you and I are not as we should be is not even our response to it. And I like that we're recording this in December because this is where we get to be reminded that our God knew that we could not climb up that metaphorical ladder to get to Him. Every [other] world religion has that: people trying to get closer to God.
Maybe that's why you're listening to this podcast, trying to get closer to God. If I get the right information, then I can climb up that ladder to get closer to God. If I get up in the morning, if I go [to church] … sing the worship song … you know, if I get up and have quiet time, and I'm present, and I put my phone away … if I do all this, I’ll get closer to God. But God knew you and I could not climb up that ladder because there's a problem with the metaphorical ladder, and that is this: Our God is perfect. Our God is holy, which means that ladder is infinite.
I think there's far too many people who are exhausted in the faith because they've been convinced that it's all up to them, and they've been functioning in their autonomy, having little tidbits of idolatry, just trying to make it work and get by. And the good news of the gospel that begins with the incarnation of Christ is this: Because God knew that we couldn't get to Him, He climbed down the ladder to be with us. That's Christmas. That's good news for us! Because the reason living a relaxed life is possible is not because of we respond to our mistakes but how He responded to our mistakes. And in light of the truth that He came to us because we couldn't get to Him … That didn't just happen 2,000 years ago. It is still happening today. He's still moving. He's still pursuing. He's still on a journey, wooing us not to do anything alone. And in light of that truth, hear the word of the Lord: Trust in Him with all your heart (Proverbs 3:5-6).
Why? Because He's moved toward your heart the entire time, trying to get it open so that you can be with Him and not be alone in those things. So trust Him. Even by declaring … By the way, that begins the minute you tell Him right where you're at, even if where you're at is, God, I don't trust You that You're gonna do anything about this scenario. I know that You can. I just don't trust that You will. The minute you say that, you begin the journey of trusting Him and leaning not on your own understanding or “just trying to figure it out.” How often have you said that phrase lately? But rather, in all your ways, submit to Him. Or another word would be “open” — in all your ways, open them to Him.
Have that visual of a little ball of your heart. Open it to Him. He dwells there, and He wants to make you aware of what He's already aware of. And the good news about Him living and dwelling in there, as He promises … Another beautiful promise in Scripture in Romans 8:28, which says we know that in all things — [including] all things in the heart — God works for the good of those who love Him, who have been called according to His purpose. I know we've heard that verse and wondered, What in the world? Yes. All things. I love that verse. And some of you go, How in the world could He use my anxiety for good? Thankfully, He keeps writing this: “For those God foreknew he also predestined …” This is Romans 8:29 (NIV). Here it is: “To be conformed the to the image of his Son.” The good thing God is doing in all things — the trials, the pain, the grief, the mistakes — is that He's using all those things to form you more into His likeness. And He's doing that. He's interceding. He's praying for that. He dwells within your heart and everywhere that all that residue lives.
And so He's saying, In all those, open to Me. I'm going to literally use those things and not waste a thing. And how does He do that? He makes our path straight directly to Him, and that is why I wrote the book. It's not just because I sat in a lecture and it said autonomy is a problem. But I realized … Here's the best part. On the other end of a 2.5-year journey of not just writing a book, not just working on a dissertation, but losing my husband — yes, you heard that right — in the middle of going through trials, I realized: He'll use all of it.
I'm not just saying that flippantly. I'm saying it as someone who, like, needed to know that I am not alone in anything. And I know some of you, whether you're alone in singleness, you're alone in grief, or you just feel alone even though you're surrounded by people, or you’re in a marriage that's just broken, and it makes you feel more isolated because it should have fixed the problem right now … I want everyone to hear this kind invitation of the Lord. He comes to you there. He wants to do life with you there.
Mhmm. And that's why I think I'm sitting right here.
Kaley Olson: Again, I like when there's … Kendra, you can back me up on this: Whenever an author is like a living example of a message that they've written, I just sense that. I sense that from you, [Megan], and how much you embody the likeness of Christ and really how relaxed you are. It calms me down. And I think in the season of my life where I am as a mom of an almost-3-year-old and a 3.5-month-old — I know, teeny baby. He's a large one, though. Big baby. [Laughs.]
[To Megan:] Can I add my own fourth temptation to your list and we talk about it for a little bit? OK. Impatience. I feel like because everything in my life is so full right now, when I need God, I'm like, I want it now. And it's hard for me to even pause and kinda figure out, like, what is it that I'm really asking, you know? Like, there's confusion in my mind that I feel like I'm not even able to kind of —
Kendra LeGrand: Get to the bottom of.
Kaley Olson: Yeah. What is on my heart right now? Because there's so much on my mind. How do I know the difference? Yeah. And it's hard for me to sit and be patient and sort that out with the Lord. And so I kind of will take Proverbs 3:5-6 and be like, Well, God's gonna keep my path straight. It's fine. I'm just gonna, like, trust it and keep moving on whatever I feel like I'm supposed to do. But there's this part of your book, I think in [a chapter called] “With All Your Heart,” where you wrote about … You talk about a little exercise of, like, how to get to what is on your heart. Mhmm. And I read it. I thought, That's good.
I wanna ask you a little bit more about what that looks like because I need help. So can you walk [through it for] me and our listeners who are just swirling with confusion? Yeah. We’re struggling with the temptation to be impatient and [with how to] move forward — we really need to know, How do I hear from God about what I really need to work through?
Megan Fate Marshman: Yep. And you're right. It does take time. And that's one thing: It seems like we're willing to give God, like, our attention for a moment, but are we willing to give Him the time it takes? Because the journey … Like, it's not gonna change in a day because it didn't get that way in a day. So that's gonna be more of a journey for us. Right? So what I've done — I don't even think this is what you're referencing. I think I know what you're referencing. I'm gonna go in totally different direction.
Kaley Olson: That's fine. Take me there.
Megan Fate Marshman: No. No. So I know in the morning that I might forget — which sounds crazy, OK — but I might forget to pray.
Kendra LeGrand: No.
Kaley Olson: I do too. You do. You just, you know …
Megan Fate Marshman: The truth is I don't forget to pray. I just wanted to bring that out of you. [Laughs.] I'm just kidding. That's fine. No.
Kendra LeGrand: No. No. I thank you.
Kaley Olson: It's because you're working on your doctorate —
Megan Fate Marshman: Yeah, OK. But it's true. I do. I want to pray, and I have all these great intentions, right? And I want to do the thing. But I also, like, give it the amount of time my mind will give it, you know? Like, just something immediate — I need something immediate. Our minds … We don't realize the effect of all this stuff: our culture, our phones. All this is affecting us.
So if you're noticing, there are so many movements right now happening around this theological concept called “spiritual formation.” That’s a fancy way of saying Christ is forming you. It's not a crazy concept. It's just how we become more like Jesus. And you're noticing these authors — the John Ortbergs, the John Mark Comers, Dallas Willards —writing about things that are slower. Yeah. That's actually what our mind needs.
Kaley Olson: Mhmm.
Megan Fate Marshman: And our lack of patience is a trust in ourselves. It's back to autonomy. I can figure this out. I can figure this out. OK, so here's what I did, and I think it's tangible, so I wanna bring it up because I think it's practical for everyone. I know that I might forget prayer, but I somehow know that I won't forget coffee. OK? So what I do is actually combine the two. I took what I knew I wouldn't forget —
Kaley Olson: Mhmm.
Megan Fate Marshman: — and I placed in there something I knew I wanted to remember. And so when I press my little coffee button, it is a trigger in my brain. And to everyone listening in: Steal this. What do you know you're not gonna forget? Hopefully brushing teeth could be another option.
Kaley Olson: Mhmm. Yeah.
Megan Fate Marshman: When I press that coffee button, I go on a journey. It's actually a four-part journey. I won't go super in-depth on it — I could, but I won't. First, I simply present myself to the Lord. The second part involves getting to the root of who I am, which is not all the things that I do, but it's a discipline to remind myself.
Kaley Olson: Mhmm. OK.
Megan Fate Marshman: And here's where I land on that part: God, I'm in You, and You're in me. Mhmm. I actually close my eyes to try to get a little visual. This whole prayer time is, like, three to seven minutes. But that's a longer time than most, right? Longer than I had done before this discipline.
The third movement is something kind of funny, but I think it’s the way that I uncover the heart, which is why I bring it up. The fourth one is I wait and ask the Lord, like, How is Your Spirit leading me to respond? And then I try to just do that one thing. And usually it's some sort of prompt to love, which is fun.
But that third one, I do this thing where I … Let me give a little context. So you know, like, when you're praying and you're doing your little performance prayer: Dear Lord, thank You for this day. Thine is the Kingdom and the glory, and I confess this ... Or maybe you have, like, a little acronym. Mine I got from my friend Robert Watson, who just wrote a book. My little acronym is T.A.C.O.S. Which is kinda fun.
Kendra LeGrand: I was not expecting that.
Megan Fate Marshman: I know! No one else —
Kaley Olson: It's festive.
Megan Fate Marshman: Yeah. It's festive. Yeah. “T” is thanksgiving. “A” is adoration, which is kinda fun. Why do I adore Him? “C” is confession. “S” would be self — like, put “self” at the end. It's called T.A.C.O.S. You can do it with your kids. Pray T.A.C.O.S.
But the third movement in my prayer is not T.A.C.O.S. It’s like when you're doing your T.A.C.O.S. prayer, and then your mind begins to wander, and you're like, Wait. Wait, wait, wait. It takes you, like, 90 seconds to realize it. And once you do, you're, like, Oh, shoot. Yeah. And then you pause your well-intended prayer and you shame yourself back to the performance prayer. Right? I'm so sorry. Here I am. What happened there? Or you fell asleep. Right? It's a bit of a surprise.
Kaley Olson: Mhmm.
Megan Fate Marshman: And here's where I learned that a wandering mind in prayer is a gift. So where's our mind wandering to? Probably the thing that's captivated or is holding my heart, the thing that I'm tempted to do by myself. And so the third part of my prayer — this is how I search my heart, to answer your question. That third movement is: I let my mind wander, and I talk to the Lord Jesus about that.
Kaley Olson: Wow.
Megan Fate Marshman: And that's what I've gotten out of this book. This book is meant to prompt you to be with the Lord. Just to be with Him. And so that whole “pray without ceasing” thing (see 1 Thessalonians 5:17) has actually oddly been happening more than any other time in my life because I realized, Wait a second — all the wandering places of my mind is the Lord uncovering what's in my heart. And then I come to that Proverbs 4:23 verse, right? “Above all else, guard your heart, for everything you do flows from it” (NIV). So it comes from our heart, not from our behavior, not from our decisions. So many of us … We make all these big decisions.
Kaley Olson: Mhmm.
Megan Fate Marshman: But our actions don't change. Yeah. The key toward transformation is in the heart.
Kaley Olson: Like, you just set a lot of people free —
Kendra LeGrand: That’s what I was gonna say. Like, there's permission —
Kaley Olson: What a gift. I think there's a temptation to kind of view, like, ourselves and God separately. And we are separate from God, but God is also with us through the Holy Spirit. And I think the aspect of the wondering heart helps us realize, like, He’s with me when I'm wondering, too, and He's pointing it out. Like, He really is using everything. I love that.
Megan Fate Marshman: Yeah. I would recommend the book Where Prayer Becomes Real by Dr. Kyle Strobel and Dr. John Coe, where that concept became really real to me. But, yeah, prayer is … I was gonna say something that's probably so obvious. But you know when, like, really obvious things become profound?
Kaley Olson: Yeah.
Megan Fate Marshman: You know God's in it. Yeah. So here's what it is: It turns out our faith, our Christianity, is really just a relationship with the Lord Jesus. And as you mentioned, like, “Oh, I have the temptation to be impatient.” And I go, “Yeah. Yeah. Me too.” Yet prayer is not just, like, some solution. It is what it is. It is the relationship. Mhmm. Yeah, it's literally where the relationship is found. So of course it takes time, of course it takes vulnerability — all the things that make a relationship meaningful, impactful and intimate.
Kaley Olson: That's amazing. Kendra, I wanna know what's on your heart.
Kendra LeGrand: Yes, OK.
Megan Fate Marshman: Well, I wanna know where your mind wandering to.
Kendra LeGrand: Let me tell you. You talk about friendships in Part 3 of your book. And you talk about how you gathered these women — I think it was before the COVID-19 [pandemic]. I think it was prior to COVID, which is so timely. But you gathered these women around your table, and you guys are very open and authentic with each other.
Megan Fate Marshman: Mhmm.
Kendra LeGrand: And so, obviously, you've done life with these women, all different backgrounds. And so Circle 31 is all about community. And so why is it important to read Relaxed with other women, with other people? Like, what is the benefit of reading it not in isolation but with others?
Megan Fate Marshman: Yeah, I'm gonna [give an answer that’s] twofold: No. 1 is to do it for you, and No. 2 is to do it for them. So first, do it for you.
I remember hearing this concept that if you say something on a podcast … Let's say, for instance, right now if I say something, the best-case scenario is you understand it.
Kendra LeGrand: Mhmm.
Megan Fate Marshman: That's, like, the hope. I mean, obviously you can take it and run, but ideally you're sitting in the audience, and you understand it. Now, if you're in a lecture hall or you're in, let's say, a seminar, you could choose to raise your hand and say something, and you would spend the rest of that lecture time either critiquing or being very proud of what you just said. Right? So what does that tell us? That tells us that if you say something, you actually remember it, which is interesting. If you discover something, you own it. And here's where it gets even more interesting: You only act on what you own, not what you agree with.
The reason it matters to do a book club in community is because when you speak about it, you remember it. When you discover something — which happens in community — you can own it. The potential of life change happens when you go on a journey by the Spirit, discovering precisely what you need, and the community is the way in which you do it.
But as I said, there are two primary reasons. No. 1, that's the one for you. No. 2 is kind of also wildly empowering — because everything God does for you is never meant to stop with you. It's always meant to go through you and into the life of another. So the second reason it matters is not just for you. It kinda comes back to … Again, another reason it's for you is because when you recognize you're a part of what God's up to in the world, when you recognize you're a part of what God's up to in others’ lives, it's good for them. But then back to you again — because I know we like us. It's really good for us to realize ... I'll jump to another scripture. One of my favorite ones is found in the book of Acts. Acts 1:1.
Kendra LeGrand: Right at the beginning.
Kaley Olson: Come on. Beginning.
Megan Fate Marshman: So this little theology is kinda fun. Luke wrote the book of Luke, and then he wrote the book of Acts. So the author of Acts is Luke. Two volumes, one book, one story. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John — those four guys gave their accounts of the life of Jesus. Luke is the one who wrote the next book in the Bible, called Acts. Here's why I gave you all that on purpose — because in Acts 1:1, Luke writes, “In my former book …” (NIV). Where? Come on, are you with me? What book would that be?
Kaley Olson: Self-titled. Luke.
Megan Fate Marshman: Yes. “In my former book,” Luke said, “I wrote about all that Jesus began to do and to teach” (Acts 1:1, NIV). Right? “Until the day he was taken up” (Acts 1:2, NIV), which means ascended to heaven, which happened in Acts 1. OK, so that's interesting. Because if Luke said that [his Gospel records what] Jesus began, that would assume that Acts is what Jesus is …
Kaley Olson: Continuing?
Megan Fate Marshman: Nailed it. Nice job, Kaley. Thanks … [inaudible]. Good job. OK. So Luke is what Jesus began. Acts is what Jesus is continuing. That's what you said, right? Beautiful. Yes. Acts is what Jesus is continuing to do.
But in Acts 1, Jesus ascended to heaven and now sits at the right hand of God. So how is Acts what Jesus is continuing to do? Good question. How? Because in Acts 2, He descends by the power of the Holy Spirit to dwell in those who believe, which means that what Jesus is continuing to do, He is continuing to do now through you — by means of the Holy Spirit. So, friends, why does it matter to be a part of a book club like this? Because what you're doing is precisely what Jesus is doing in the book club.
Kendra LeGrand: And, like, what you said in the book is that God moves when we talk about it. Is that, like, very similar to what you're talking about now? It's like He moves when we are honest and open in talking about it.
Megan Fate Marshman: Yes. Mhmm. And He literally wants to … Like, if you're wondering, What is Jesus up to in this relationship? Or in me? Good question. If you're thinking specifically, What's Jesus up to in my workplace? Good question. What are you up to in your workplace? Because that's precisely what Jesus is continuing to do in your workplace. What you do matters — not just for you but also for someone else. And what He might be doing in them is precisely what He's doing through you.
Kaley Olson: That's amazing. And that's what I love about Circle 31 Book Club. I feel like we've never really had that type of description of, like, Hey, you should be a part of this because this is what's happening here. We talk about how good things grow in community, but bringing it back to the foundations of really starting and continuing the work that Jesus did through us, something simple like a book club can be a way that you grow as a person but also a way to be challenged through community to, like, work it out and process it. Because how often, in this digital age, are we so tempted to just consume, consume, consume? You're doing that right now with this podcast. You're consuming — but it's not gonna do anything to transform you until you talk it through with someone. And I —
Megan Fate Marshman: Go ahead. No. No. I just wanna make one comment on that. A friend of mine was talking about that concept of instead of consuming, contributing. Like, imagine Sunday morning [if we had an] agenda of contributing. Imagine walking into Circle 31 with the agenda of contributing.
Kendra LeGrand: Yes.
Megan Fate Marshman: Like, not just giving information but genuinely … We all like saying profound things.
Kaley Olson: Yeah.
Megan Fate Marshman: But [what if we said,] “I'm gonna contribute by listening”? And here's the fun part on that chapter on friendship in the book. It talks about doing to others as we would have them do to us. Like, what do you wish someone would do for you? When you're a part of Circle 31 or you're a part of anything, would you want someone to, like, throw out a bunch of information at you? Probably not, actually. We don't necessarily need a ton more information. I wish you'd probably shut up. [Laughs.] But what do we need? We need someone who's genuinely gonna listen and care. Or how about this one? Follow up with what you said last week.
Kendra LeGrand: Mhmm.
Megan Fate Marshman: Like, I wish someone did that to me. So here's the prompt from Jesus. If you long for that, show up and go first. So I hope on Sunday mornings, you end up not saying, “What did you think? What did you get?” but instead, “How did you give?”
Kaley Olson: Mhmm. Yeah. That's amazing. And [for our listeners], just as we close: Think about something that you heard right now that you wanna go process and talk through with a friend, and see what happens after you listen.
And, Kendra, you've got a few announcements about Circle 31 and how people can join.
Kendra LeGrand: Just a few. Alright. We like to keep things easy on here, so No. 1: If you wanna be part of Circle 31 Book Club, go to circle31.org. And once you sign up, you're in. That's it. That's all you gotta do. The second thing is we would love for you to buy Megan's book and read along with us. We're gonna start reading February 1. And when you buy the book through Proverbs 31 Ministries, we have some freebies for you. We would love for you to get those as well because it's always fun to get some free things in your inbox. Yeah. So that's it! Two things.
Kaley Olson: That's amazing. And y'all just recorded some videos and things like that. So is that part of what people get whenever they join the book club?
Kendra LeGrand: When they join the book club, yes. You'll get access to some videos. You'll get access to some prayers. All the things! We even have a Circle 31 podcast coming out with Relaxed.
Kaley Olson: I love that! There's so many ways to learn. You can read and you can hear from Megan. I'm a “both and” kinda person. I need both. And so that's why you should join.
Megan, thank you so much for sitting around the table with us today, wearing the blanket and staying warm. Yeah, now she's hot. She's hot because she's full of the Holy Spirit. [Laughs.] But really, this was a very helpful teaching, and I can't wait to go back and dig through my notes and probably dialogue a little bit with Kendra about what I'm learning.
So that's all for today, friends. At Proverbs 31 Ministries, we believe when you know the Truth and live the Truth, it changes everything.