God Restored Our Broken Marriage | Lissa & Scott’s Story From Chaos to Unity

Navigating Marriage’s Challenges: Faith, Leadership, and Redemption

In this episode of the Red Ledger podcast, host Denalee Bell is joined by Lisa and Scott Frazier to discuss the trials and transformations within their marriage. The conversation covers issues such as the cultural shift in marital roles, the importance of faith, and the challenges of submission and leadership. Lisa and Scott share their personal journeys of growing closer to God and each other, highlighting the impact of faith on their relationship. They offer practical advice on prayer, trust, and the importance of mutual respect in achieving a harmonious marriage.

Creators and Guests

DB

Host

Denalee Bell

What is Red Ledger Podcast?

We share stories of how the blood of Jesus has transformed ours and others' lives.

 Hey everybody. Welcome to the Red Ledger. I'm Denel Lee Bell and I have my good friend Lisa and Scott Frazier joining me today, and I'm really excited about the topic to talk about some challenges that they've experienced in their marriage and that you might be too, given today's society and our current cultural trend of allowing women, or even maybe sometimes men are abdicating or women are usurping the leadership role in a marriage.

I know that I've been a usurper and what effects that has on a marriage, and then the role reversal of what is supposed to be, what's God's best is for us, and then how they have switched back into God's plan. Right. Is that correct? Yes. Okay. Mm-hmm. And I'm sure that comes with challenges too, because this is marriage, which is a journey.

Mm-hmm. Not a destination. Right. And there are peaks and valleys Anyway, so I thought we'd kind of dive right in and just take a few minutes to, I maybe give some people a little background about your faith. And I will mention that Lisa has done a podcast with us before about Grace, and it involves her testimony, which is a bit of a tear jerker.

So bring your, um, Kleenexes. But I will also put that in the description. So feel free to watch that. But I just, if you guys can give them each a brief kind of feeling about where your faith was and where it is now, where your walk is. Yeah, well, I, uh, well, I grew up, um, in a, in a, an Italian Catholic home.

And so, uh, a lot of that experience that I had about, uh, religion or God was through religion and with my, um, uh, growing up years, it wasn't really that we were going to church often. It was, it was mostly we were Easter or Christmas and, and special occasions. But while grandma was alive, we were more, you know, going to, going to church.

But, uh, the relationship with the Lord was never developed until, until I was born again. And, and that came from, uh, a process that actually my wife led us to a church 'cause of the seeking that she had. And because of my growing up, there wasn't really a seeking, it was, it was part of my understanding that there could be a relationship with God.

So. It was distant, but now it's close. And you, Lisa. So I grew up with my family, really not going to church, and my grandparents did, and they, they were Mormon. So I, my affiliation was with a Mormon church until I, um, was in my early twenties, 19 or so. Um, which I had an experience and I, which you and I discussed on that previous podcast.

Um, and then I really went the route of New age, um, seeking God, trying to find what he is, who he is. I, my understanding was very scary. I was afraid of him. Um, and then when I got married and when I, I became sick in 2014 and that's when I had, I, there was a mass on my pancreas and I. That whole story in itself led us to a church and where we became born again and I received healing.

And then I went, I remember the day, um, I had gone into our, it was in our house and I had, uh, knelt down. Um, my son was seeking God too. He was talking about Jesus all the time. And I was like, well, there's a bunch of masters. There's Buddha, there's like, I'm having this list, but our son only spoke of Jesus.

And so I was like, oh, this is great. You know, he's on his little special journey. And I had decided that I was going to, um, get in agreement with everything because then I wouldn't be wrong. And so once I had received salvation and hearing the message, I was like, huh, now I'm kind of confused. So I went to my, um, I remember I was in our living room.

Everybody was gone. And I was there and I had knew it was Matthew seven, seven, um, seek and you shall find, knock on a door, we'll be open. Maybe I got that backwards. But, um, so I said, Lord, I'm seeking. And I need to know, my husband was raised Catholic. I was born and and raised under, um, Mormonism, and I don't know which, and I'm into new age and I don't know which direction to go, so please show me.

And through that doors slammed shut. Another doors opened. Praise God. That's where, so I'm just curious, um, so neither the Catholic or Mormons, not, not that this is a rule for those churches. I don't, I'm not saying that. Don't get crazy on me out there, but. Um, they, neither of them taught about being born again?

Not that I recall. No, it wasn't, not that I recall. Mm-hmm. I don't re I don't ever recall that part. They may have. Okay. I, I don't know. Oh, it was just interesting. Yeah, an interesting note. So, what led you guys to start following Christ more intentionally? As a couple and as a family? I started following, once I received healing, I, Scott and I have a picture of us, and, um, when I had received healing, it was odd to me because I, there was, when they had said, we found a mass on your pancreas, I was like, okay.

I was 39. My dad died when he was 39 and I was going uhoh, you know, I did not want to repeat history. I have two kids and it was not an option for me to die. Excuse me. They never said that I had cancer. I was never diagnosed with cancer. But when I saw the doctor's face when he told me there was a mass, it was very grim.

And, um, I had just recently at that time, my step-grandmother had passed from pancreatic cancer and there was a, um, high school friend whose father had passed away from pancreatic cancer. And it all started with a mass on their pancreas. And so when I went to church and received, and, and this was by happenstance because there was a friend of mine who had said, well, you know, 'cause I said, Hey, I've got this going on and I don't know what to do.

And I was in fear and she's like, well, there's a church that has like a healing and you know, maybe we could go to that May. And I was like, okay, at this point I'll try anything. And so when I went there was the, um, the pastor who had his, uh, message and. He said when, when he had finished his message, he said, um, you can come up and we'll lay hands on you.

And I was like, okay. Never had that before. I had seen things on TV and I had seen people like flopping around like a fish. And so I was like, is that fake? Is that real? You know, like, whatever, I'll go up. So I went up and I was the third in line and it was across the whole church. Were you there? No. Okay.

It was just me and my friend. Okay. Because Scott was working and Scott at that point was not, and him and I were heavy drinkers. Heavy. I was a, a smoking. You cannot see it. I know. I was having a good time out on the porch and Oh, it's amazing. The transformation has been amazing. I mean, we had a cat, we even had a cat named Rita.

'cause I, I was like, sip. You had a cat, you were smoker and a cat just joking. People had a cat. I had a cat. Rita, she showed up after Margarita, after Margarita with me drinking and smoking. So, um, so I had gone and when I went up there, there was, um, two people in, not in front of me, but next to me that he had, uh, dealt with.

And one was like, I'm, I'm struggling with drugs. And I'm like, oh, okay. Sorry. That sucks. And then the next person was like, I'm suicidal. And I'm like, oh my gosh. Like, oh, I feel so bad. Mine is not even like their stuff. Like, am I supposed to be up here? And then when I had gotten there, um, he said, what's going on with you?

And I said, oh. I don't know. There's a mass on my pancreas. And he goes, oh, you're the one. And I said, oh, I'm the one. And I'm thinking, what do you mean? I'm the one? And he said, the Lord came to me in a vision last night and told me that we would be healing somebody with pancreatic cancer. And I was like, well, I was never diagnosed with that, but whatever.

I'm standing right here. So he said, I'm gonna lay hands on you. And he said, you're gonna go, have you gone? Have you gone to the doctors yet? I said, no, I haven't. He said, okay, you're gonna go and they're gonna do the procedure and they're gonna look and they're gonna look and they're not gonna find anything.

And I was like, okay, hope you're right. Like I had no idea. He touched me. I felt nothing. And he lightly touched me on my arms. It was nothing. And I didn't feel anything. And I just was like, okay. And I walked back, went to my seat. And I didn't, there was nothing else that I had felt I, I didn't feel anything.

I didn't ex nothing. And then a week later we went to the doctor and they did the scope. In fact, they did two scopes and I hadn't met with the doctor because this was so emergency. It was like, we need to get you in immediately. And they, we need to do a biopsy on this. I was like, okay, sounds good. And um, and so Scott and I, I wake up and I still remember being under anesthesia.

He says, we've got good news and we've got bad news. And I was like, okay. And so he said, the good news is there's nothing there. I looked and I looked and I didn't find anything. And so I was like, and I had remembered what that pastor had spoke over me. And so I was like, okay, Jesus is real. That was that point for me.

Mm-hmm. Where I was like, okay, I don't know how this happened. Um, other than through him, I. And Okay. And from there forward I sought, I started, um, listening to Andrew Womack, um, messages and just, I just sought him. Um, did you start going to church there after that? A little bit. Okay. And Scott was amazed.

'cause I, I mean, but I don't know that he was necessarily as impacted as I was. Yeah. I think I took it more casual, like, oh, well, I mean, you can like a man. Yeah. I'm just joking, just joking. Well, not really giving the, the, the reverence, I guess to what had happened or given the well, and sometimes when it doesn't happen to us, you can rationalize it away.

You know, you, if you, if you have a miracle in front of you and, and, but your eyes aren't open to see it, you don't, you don't get to see it because you're not given that place. That's when I began to really seek him more. And so that was mostly on your side and not yours at that point? Yes. Oh yeah. Okay.

Yeah. You know, I, I think this is what happened in my marriage too, where I found God in a larger way and I was all in. 'cause I knew he was the only answer and maybe my husband wasn't. So then that created some things that weren't so healthy in our marriage. And I'm wondering if it did the same for you.

It totally did. At that point, I started leading the family and, um, because Cooper, one of the things that our son had said when I was going to the church that night, I took Cooper to a friend's house, um, and she was gonna watch him. 'cause at that point, Cooper, I think was six or seven years old, and Finley was, um, three or four.

Anyway, so, um, I had walked him up to the door and she's like, where are you going? I said, and Cooper goes, mom's going to a church. She's gonna be healed by Jesus. And I was like, oh wow. Oh, I hope he's right. I hope he's right. And so. Through that. I, my son was already there. My son was there and, and I, I just knew that I had to lead my children.

Mm-hmm. I, and, and that was the whole thing behind it for me, was I didn't know which direction to teach my children and lead them, because I didn't really have any, I mean, the church that I went to was, or as often it was like once a year maybe, like Scott was saying, we didn't go on Christmas and Easter.

It was maybe when there was like a girls camp or something and my mom was able to get me to go to that 'cause my dad had died. So, so we didn't really go to church. And then when I went and, and, and spent time with my grandparents, that was always a must. You always had to go to church. And it was the Mormon church that we went to.

So did you, so you started to take on that leadership and shepherding your family to church and into the word. Is that kinda how that happened? I shepherd us, shepherded us all. And that's when, at that point, that led us back to Pocatello. I did that because there was a shift. But you were making a leadership decision in the, within the church and within your family.

So you were taking both roles? Yes, because he didn't, he wasn't Okay. Oh, okay. So did you feel like you were abdicating that role or did you feel like she was taking that role? Uh, I felt like I was condoning it by my omission or lack of interest in leading. And maybe, maybe it was, who knows why, really?

Maybe I didn't know how to do that. Mm-hmm. Um, but it is interesting, the walk, because of the seeking that had been in her heart even prior to this experience, was, was leading, helped lay the foundation for faith in, in our son and also, um, because that was the growth, that was the direction she had been seeking some connection that I wasn't providing.

I wasn't leading spiritually in any form because I had a view of it being. Casual part-time. You know, my growing up was not in that capacity, so totally functional. Like, I'm gonna go to work, I'm gonna supply, this is just what I need to do then. But we also, from the very beginning in our marriage knew mm-hmm.

That we wanted to have a foundation of, of did you want traditional values? Did you want that traditional kind of role? We did, yeah. And, and we sought that even council, when we were, we were, uh, when we decided to get married, we, we sought a, uh, a church or council that was godly, that wasn't a part of our religion that we had experienced.

So we actually went to a Presbyterian church, which there was a woman pastor of that church, and she counseled us, um, before we were married. And she spoke life into our marriage. Yeah. And I know that it was because of, of those meetings and she conducted the, the service, the, the, our, our marriage. It was the blessing that has kept us, you know, through the trials.

Yeah, she was amazing. It's, it's interesting because part of this study to even, even consider, um, how the transformation has happened in our lives, Uhhuh, and to realize what the role is in, in, and how God's order is, you know, it all comes, goes back to creation and, and Adam and Eve, you know, and, and how this, how this was set up and established.

But when in the gospel, we have direction about these last days also, and it really opens up our eyes. We get to see what happens in the last days. And so looking at it in, in two Timothy three, it says, know this in the last days, and perilous times will come for men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, posters and pri pride, prideful and e lists.

A a number of things. Well, that separates our opportunity from, from growth. If we don't humble ourselves. And so in this humility that was happening, maybe by omission, maybe I didn't intend on submitting to my wife or soon to be wife and, and that woman pastor, I was willing to just go along with it, I guess, and praise the Lord I did because it was a blessing for us.

I think that's part of the problem, right? So society has told us that through feminism, and we do also have a, uh, podcast on toxic femininity, which is what I'm gonna touch on right now. Mm-hmm. Is this quest for power. Mm-hmm. For women that we just think it is our right. Or what, you know what I mean? In the world, maybe Right.

In the world, but God's plan and design for us is different. Right. And I think the problem that people have with that is the word submit. Mm-hmm. And they always forget the next part. Where it says for the husband to love the wife as if he were Jesus. Mm-hmm. Like Jesus loves the church and that is this beautiful design with submission is not being a doormat.

It does not mean taking, being abused. No. And I think that that's what women think. Yes. And that's what I fought for years. I didn't even like the word submission for, I don't know how many years I was a Christian. Like I do not like the word Do not like it. Yeah. I mean, it still gives a little tick when I hear it.

Sure. Yeah. And that's an experience based, I think because of religion and, and in these last days, this dispensation of time is the last days. And so this pride that can get caught up in those positions of influence or power. Mm-hmm. Um, the, um, I think, I think that has, for lack of a better word, been perverted in a way where it has.

It has kind of abused that situation of, of submit to me. And, you know, on the lack of, of Godly leadership, uh, that submission can go down the wrong road. Oh, for sure. And we can go down the wrong road. Right. The lack of submission or the lack of love, it's kind of this balance that without one or the other, it it's not the beautiful design of God.

Oh, yeah. And that's, and Scott, what he grew up in was his mother ran everything and his dad, Scott, is very much his father and I have many traits of his mother. And so he basically, I I get it. He picked that out. You were comfortable with it. Yeah. Yeah. You know, my father had passed away, so my mom didn't submit to a man.

She, she was. The breadwinner. She had to care for us. Like to survive. She had to survive. So there, that wasn't an option. And, and, um, so I didn't, and they had divorced when I was three. So I did not have a good concept of marriage. And, and the marriage that I did see, the marriages that I did see within my family, it was not healthy.

It was very, a lot of dysfunction. And so when you grow up the way I did, um, it, it's all dependent upon me. And so then here I marry a man who, I mean, we were together and we were, you know, both going, yes, we want, um, we wanna have Jesus at the center. And I remembered I wanted God at the center of my marriage.

And that's one of the things that we talked about and that's why we sought out this, uh, Presbyterian church. I didn't realize it was God getting his way in there, you know, but that's, I thought it was all me and Scott thinking, oh yeah, we're doing something great, which we were. But um. I didn't understand that I was just railroading my husband on things, but I, I, I really didn't.

Uh, I just, that's how it was supposed to be. Yeah. Because that's what you had seen in the world probably and what you've seen at home. Yeah. And I was, was surviving. Yeah, that's exactly it. I was surviving. Mm-hmm. And that's what you do. You just go and you do and, and I can't. And, and, and you were told, I remember this.

You cannot rely on a man the amount of times I have heard that you cannot rely on a man. And when you graduate high school, you need to go get a job and you need to have your money and you need everything separate. And you need this because you can't rely upon a man. Well, that's not biblical. No, it is brainwashing from the feminist movement though.

Yeah. However. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, which we all believed and interestingly enough, women are the most unhappy they've ever been. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Now that we have all these leadership and power roles Yeah. That we wanted. Mm-hmm. I wanted to work, I wanted to work 'cause I'm a workhorse and that's what I do. And then inside I'm like, but I want to be at home with Cooper and Finley.

Mm-hmm. I don't want them being raised by somebody else. I wanna raise them. And that has, that has been my heart is raising my children. And being at every game, at every function. I mean, I, I can't help 'em with all of their, their math, but, but I will get them their help that was done at the fourth grade with my kids.

Yeah. Like, because we're on your own. Yeah. Good luck. I know. I'm like, well, I can help 'em read. Huh? I could help 'em read. That's it. Yeah. I couldn't even do that. I get it all backwards. Um, it was the conflict there. Mm-hmm. Because there is a conflict, because there's that innate seed that the Lord is planted on.

Who I'm Well, he's also made us a different, right. Yes. And I'm gonna probably gonna get it for this, but I'm just gonna say it. Men tend to be more logical and we tend to be more nurturing. Right. And. That is a cool design. It's beautiful. And you don't fight it. Right, right. Yeah. It is his design and you know, you're gonna go out and slay the dragons and we're gonna nurture and take care of our family and lift you back up so you can go slay more dragons.

Right? Yeah. Is the dream. Mm-hmm. That's, that returns us to the garden when in creation, when he made man, he saw that it wasn't good until he made woman. And so that's where the completion came. So why did it get completed with the woman? Well, because of, because it brought in more characteristics that were needed.

It was way too functional with the man. And just like you said, that's the, that's the foundation I think of, of. It's okay to acknowledge the differences in the nature. Yeah. Yes. And who and love them. Yes. And, and love that. Embrace those great gifts. God's perfect design. I'm no longer ashamed that I wanna be at home with my kids.

Yeah. You know, and this is part of the culture that I get upset with, is they want you to be ashamed if you want. Well, yeah. You know the trad wife, right? Yeah. Moniker that's happening right now. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, they're getting really beat up mm-hmm. By, you know, some certain demographics that yes, this is wrong.

Right. And it's not wrong to go and work. No, I'm still working. There's things that I'm doing right, but the majority of my time is spent doing what, what. Is right inside, which is nurturing my children, taking care of the home, and my husband. And your kids are older now. They are, yeah. So you have a little more time.

I do. So now I can, I can give forth to the Lord what I wanna do and, and pursue areas of growth and work that, that I wanna do versus, um, versus just I'm gonna work all the time and be away from the family. I, I don't wanna be away from my family is so important to me. They're, those kids are such a gift and they go so quickly, so quickly on their, their, they grow up so quick.

Such a perfect design. You can kind you, you can correlate it as the mirror of God's creation with the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. And just as it's said about Christ, uh, the church is subject to Christ. So let wives be, be to their own husbands in everything where the church or our family is, can be as the church.

Mm-hmm. And being a father that I can lead, but. The woman is also referenced as, as, as the Holy Spirit in, in scripture. Uh, the Holy Spirit is referenced as her a lot. Oh, I didn't know that. Yes. We can look at, I didn't know that. We can look in Proverbs where, um, let, um, well, I'll have to look it up. Mm. But is definitely, and the reference, the wisdom.

Let her, they call who the wisdom her. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And that's the thing. Okay. So I feel like God gave us, all right. We all have wisdom that's, um, imparted by God, but we women have influence. Yes. We have been given influence and we see that with Eve. Yeah. Oh yeah. Where she influenced for evil. Mm-hmm. But we, if we use that power for influence, we can use it for good to help lift up our men and lead them to God.

Right. Right. Instead of. Manipulation, which is also witchcraft, right? Right. Yes. Mm-hmm. Um, I know that's gonna land well, so, but let's just look at that real quick. Manipulating means we're like trying to control and make someone do what we want them to do, not based on anything other than what we want.

Right, right. So that would be witchcraft. That'd be like getting a voodoo doll and say, oh, I want you to do this. Right. Yeah. What's the difference? Yeah. And that's manipulating the leading of the Lord too. So if you are or impatient in in that process, then ouch. You might have to take a rest a little bit and see that the Lord is working the good work.

Good word. Yeah. You might be manipulating that because. Patience. Yes. Okay. So I did this with my husband where he wasn't moving fast enough. Sure. And so I think Lisa did that with me as well. I was just thinking of how I manipulated him. Okay. So I guess you just don't want our family to be closer if you don't wanna come to church with me.

Yeah. Yeah. I guess I'm going to get a divorce if you don't do what I want. Yep. 'cause that's God's plan. Mm-hmm. That's what I said. Or even the maybe passive opportunity to be passive aggressive to say, fine, you're leading us in the ditch. Let's fail on your path. And that may the way of manipulation. And that is a process of growth, you know?

And that there's, there's, you know, that's a hard one. I hope, I hope that she can forgive me and I can for in then in that, this is the thing that I just did a whole podcast on dealing with fear or dealing with, uh, something I can't remember what it was about. It was dealing with something that my husband was going through, and the truth was, God pointed, no, no, that's you because.

I was trying to manipulate him again because I was in fear of something. So I wanted him to be outta fear of it, so I didn't have to be in fear. It was this crazy cycle of nonsense. But it's the same thing where I'm wanting him to be somewhere and I'm afraid of the consequences he's gonna bring on us.

Right, right. Spiritually. Sure. That's so's I'm trying to make it happen. The amount of times I said that, um, because I was seeking God and here we, we had moved, we had taken this move from, from the Treasure Valley and we moved to Southeast Idaho. This was mostly on me. The move was. And, um, because we were, I was fearful on we're switching presidents.

I don't know what's gonna happen financially. I don't, I it la la And so I was like, okay, we don't know who's gonna be president. We better go. There's more work over there. So we went over there, but I, because of my position, um, I, we moved with Scott's job, not with my job. So I still was able to seek the Lord and seek the Lord.

And so I was doing that. Well. Scott was working and working and working and it wasn't his practice to seek to get up and read his Bible like he does now to get in. That was not practice. And so here I am growing and here's Scott. So I'm moving like this and I'm going, oh, you better re-up catch up. You better catch up.

You. And I was getting really frustrated because I'm doing this, I am doing this and you are not. And this is another problem us women have. You guys are just never doing enough. Yeah. You're just not. And so, 'cause we like to forget everything you did do. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you're at work, you're supplying all the money, you're doing all this, but it's still not enough.

Yep. You're not seeking the w as quickly as I want you to. None of that. And he would listen, you know, and he would be at home. 'cause I had, uh, I had sermons on my phone and I was sending him stuff and I'm listening and I had the Victory channel. I had this channel on, like, it was just nonstop God flooding into our home.

And I'm getting frustrated because in my opinion, Scott's not leading. And now that I kind of have an idea and I, I'm like, oh, this makes sense. So I wanted to give up control, but I really didn't. So I kept doing that kind of stuff. So is your marriage super happy at this time? I. At that time. Yeah. Were you guys super happy?

No, we were great. It was awesome. When you're not equally yolked, it's not equal. No. And so there's, there's, there's turbulence. When there's inequality and imbalance. And so, but this, this seeking is, it goes back to the, to the beginning, the nature of the differences between men and women. And then also what led Eve to be open to the deception of the serpent.

It's the seeking that she was looking for more, that she wasn't getting from Adam, and that protection, that covering that Adam was supposed to be doing, which he did not want to take accountability for. And most of us men do not want to take accountability for this, this process. Mm-hmm. Um, but in the nature of the woman, she's seeking more.

A more connection. She wants to be the one that's walking with God in the cool of the night. Well, that was Adam's experience right before Eve was created. Well, so that's where the love of the, of the husband or the or the woman should be fulfilling that role. And in most cases, especially post women's lib in this day and age that we're walking in, we're the men are not.

Filling that role. So in the absence, well, they're not allowed to. They're not, the women are still seeking. Well, that's the thing. That's, I think that's the dichotomy, right? Like the, they're not allowed to, but we want you to, and we're mad when you don't, but then we're mad when you do. Yeah, because that's what I Did you feel that?

Yeah. Did you guys ever experience that? Yeah, when I, when he was trying to take control of things I, and, and be that leader, I'm like, you're not even doing it. Right. Uhhuh like, whatcha doing? It's like, and it's like, seriously, lady, shut your yap. Like I just, because, and I had counseling for this, which really helped put things into perspective.

Um, we'll, teach us your way. Yeah. Yeah. So I was like, oh, okay. So I have to allow him to lead his way 'cause he's not me. Oh, okay. So that's part of the trust process. And it's easing up on the brakes and allowing him to speed up and me let off. It's a, it's a transfer and it's not a, well here it is. It, you know, I mean, I make fun of myself.

Um, but. I was somewhat justified because he wasn't leading. Mm. So who's going to lead? Mm-hmm. So there has to be a leader in the family. Mm-hmm. And so I was leading to the best of my ability and he, and he was realizing, oh, I'm not leading. And now I got this woman who is, you know, overbearing and, you know, emotional.

Right. You know, and, and he's like, well, I wanna step in and do it. And I'm like, well then you need to learn the word. You need to get it so that I can follow you. You need to be somebody I can follow. I can't follow an ungodly man. Because I've already, that's, I, I unfollowed I, or I followed myself and I was ungodly, you know, and, and we have gone into ditch after ditch after ditch.

I'm done with ditches. So I read this Chuck Smith book about this, and I think there's a Wigglesworth story about this too, about the woman who just allowed her husband to be him. Mm-hmm. And she followed God and she was submissive and she, she shut her mouth mm-hmm. When it wasn't working out Right. And it seemed like those men came along pretty quick.

Sure did. It's almost as if Mike fighting and clawing at my husband made it go slower. It did. It, it did. I, I think, yeah, I was the leader of the family spiritually and in, in many ways in our, in, in our, um, early marriage. And probably not even till like my, like recently where I'm. Giving that control back.

Sure. Mm-hmm. Um, but I look back at my husband and who he was then, and he wasn't even part of the family. Mm. And I wonder sometimes if I created that, if my taking control and leading and directing, this is what we're gonna do, this is what we're on vacation, this is how we're gonna do it. Like what role did he have?

Right. But to, to provide tag along. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, there might be a determination of, of what that leadership looks like. Mm-hmm. That just creates this, that, all right, we're gonna go in this bubble and, and if you're not adhering to what I've envision what leadership is supposed to be, then you're just gonna be left out of the bubble.

Well, yeah. We have to submit, I think, submit one to another. Yes. Yes. You know, and there it does say that in the Bible. Mm-hmm. Submit to one another Yes. As well. And I think that's the other part people miss. Yes. Its not a doormat. We don't, we honor each other. Mm-hmm. And honor wouldn't. Have you be a doormat honor wouldn't have you be abused?

Mm-hmm. Okay. I'm just bringing up the submission thing again. 'cause I have a hard time with the word. Yeah. Well that's, you know, it was, we had alcohol in our marriage and Scott had a problem with it, and he was not pleasant. Um, this is hard to believe. Yeah, I know. We're always so pleasant. I know when, when people, it's hard to see you smoking.

I and it's hard to see you drinking. I know. My mother-in-law asked me, me, she's like, Lisa, why did you quit smoking? Are you okay? Are you dying? I was like, no, no more than anybody else. Like, no. And, um, slower now. Yeah. I was like, I just didn't want to anymore. But she knew how much my love was for, for the smokes.

I was like, I just set out on the porch smoking my cigs and drinking my drinks and, and escaping from reality. That's what I did. But when Scott was drinking. He wasn't somebody I could follow or the kids, and that's, that's where the divorce came in. 'cause I, I didn't, I didn't know what to do at that point.

I was like, I mean, we had gone to his brother's house and at that time he was living in, in, um, in Colorado and Scott and his brother had drank and, and Scott got wasted and I had these two kids. And at that point, I don't know that I'd fully quit drinking, but I was like, this is, it's, uh, it's hurting our family.

And, and you know, it wasn't helpful. There was no benefit. And so my husband got upset with me or something happened and he starts walking the streets of Aurora car, Colorado at like one o'clock in the morning. And I'm like, are you serious? Okay, I'm done. I am done. I have two kids. So the next morning I loaded us up and I was leaving him and driving back to Idaho.

And I was like, you can find your own way home since this is what you're going to do. No. Is this after you'd already been walking with God for a while? Yeah. Okay. And so I was on that trajectory and he wasn't. Mm-hmm. And so that's, do you find that you were maybe getting worse in some of your behaviors?

The more higher she got, maybe it was just more exposed, I, I shouldn't say say higher. That was the word. More. Yeah. More the closer she was getting to God. Right. And you know, we were both had, at that point, we were born again. Yeah. And we were, um, there was a seeking, but the shedding of the old was still in process.

Mm-hmm. And so I think the old was still rearing its ugly head in, in my life. And, and I think that sometimes, you know, I mean, that's just the walk of, of shedding and, and you know, the enlightenment that was, that was on her about seeing how destructive this behavior is. And, and was, was something that I was refusing to see.

And my lifestyle, uh, or, and, and, and maturity in life throughout was, was that this is not a problem. This is a normal thing. That's what we do. We drink it every day. This is every, we do, every function was this is, yeah. This is our part of the world. Yep. So did you ever get a little jealous of Lisa's? Not jealous of, but yeah.

Lisa's relationship with Jesus like that she was, 'cause she was drawing closer. Did it feel like you were losing your spot? Uh, I, it, I think it did motivate me to seek him more. Mm-hmm. I think that was the, a good example and was, um, I wouldn't, I necessarily give her space, I guess, to acknowledge that, but I would go and, and, and seek the word because I could see the fruit that was happening and, and so it was maybe not necessarily something that I would acknowledge consciously.

But it, it did motivate me. So when I was working, I would work at, I would go outta town and would present opportunities for me to dive into him and listen to sermons and read more. And, and he works it all out, doesn't he? Yeah. And that was, that's the process. And if, if you don't cooperate with that, you don't get that.

And so I, that would motivate that would, I wouldn't wanna be left behind. Yeah. Like, only leave me behind. Yeah. You wanna go along, go back. Yeah. I, I, I didn't wanna be left behind. Yeah. But I also didn't know what that looked like either. So, you know, I hadn't really seen in our, in my family growing up, I hadn't seen that, um, any fruit of that like, uh, commitment to the Lord because it was, it was religious, I guess, per se.

So it was really not really saying, um, you can have this closeness and then that therefore you have all the fruit of leadership and, and what a godly family looks like. Um, so it was. It's been an interesting walk and it's been, it's been fruitful and much better. Are you fully reversed into your correct roles?

No, I think we're still processing. Mm-hmm. I think we're still growing. I think the perfection is gonna be continual. Mm-hmm. Um, do you feel like that you are, you are more at a leadership role though, leader role in spiritually and in your family as a, as a husband? Yeah. I do. I, because we have, we can have great conversations and we can, we can honor each other's input and, and I think I'm at that point where I am willing to acknowledge my, the things that, that I, I wasn't doing.

Mm-hmm. But then it also gives space to, to what she can continue to input for me. So what are you doing new now that you weren't doing before? Uh, seeking the Lord. Mm-hmm. And, and then, um, down, down, I guess that's what pertains to like leadership. Oh, okay. Um, quieting down, I think where. I can, I can allow that.

I, I don't have to manipulate the direction. I can, I can trust that, that we are in his will and we are walking in his direction that he has created for us. So it's not a, it's not a manipulation that, yeah, I can lead, but it's my submission to the word. And then, and then knowing that I can see more of the work in, in, in her, in me, in our children's lives and, and in the direction that he wants us to go.

So it's a, it's a trust. Prior to this, he was so adamant about, you know, and now I, what's that mean? Adamant about, well, he's right and I need to do this. And we, you know. Oh, okay. And it was really a clash, you know? 'cause I'm going, well wait a minute. I have a side and have, so you're leading with love now.

Mm-hmm. You're not leading to and to Sure. Putting her into subjection. No. No. And now I just go, Hmm. Recently we had an issue where we had left, um, our church that we had gone to for many years. And, um, I, I was like, I don't, you know, I don't know where we're gonna go. And Scott goes, well, I do. I said, oh, we do.

He said, yeah, uh, I've been seeking the Lord. And I came across, um, a, a video, a YouTube video of, of a local church. And I was listening to them talk. And, and so I started seeking more. And, you know, Lisa, I think, you know, I think it'll be good for us to try 'em out. And I was like, okay, I'm following you. I'm not going to argue.

I just, I was like, okay. And it was hard. 'cause I'm thinking, okay, does it check all the boxes? Is it this, is it that? And it's like, let me read the Google reviews. Yeah.

The Holy, holy Spirit wouldn't allow a place to go to church where there might be a bad Google Review. Right. That's a joke. Yeah. And that is it right there. If I, if you can't trust or if you don't communicate that trust, then how can I be the leader? Yeah. And it's been great. And, and, and as I've, as we've gone here, um, I, I, it has been more confirmation on that my husband hears from the Lord that he sought him out and that he is trustworthy.

Trust doesn't just happen, you know, I didn't just, you know, and I, I'm not saying that I'm wrong in how, in that I was leading us. I needed to lead us 'cause we had no leader. But my husband is leading and he is making every attempt and so I need to step back and work with him and not against him and allow, I.

You know, in the, in the word when he talks, when the Lord talks about how the man is the leader of the home, there is something in him that isn't in me. It doesn't mean that if, like my mom, when my mom, when my father passed away, it doesn't mean that my mom can't be blessed to help us. Mm-hmm. And to lead us.

That's, that's not what I'm saying. But when you have the two roles being fulfilled right there, you have a man and a woman, um, the Lord is going to have the man lead it because that's his design. Mm-hmm. And so if I try to interrupt God's plan and God's way, then that's what I'm doing. I'm interrupting God's plan and God's way.

So I disagree with you on something you said. Okay. Well, let's go. All right. What you got? Here we go. Um, can you pull up, can you, is that in Ephesians where it says, submit to one another? It doesn't say unless he's not leading. Mm-hmm. No, it doesn't. And I, I agree with that. Yeah. I agree with that. Um, I'm, and, and I'm not saying I didn't do the exact same thing.

No. This is my good friend, so this is a safe conversation. Oh, totally. Okay. No, she's not offending me. No, I, because I'm in agreement with you. Okay. Um, what I'm saying is, is that when two people are making efforts and wanting to do things the, the way the Lord has called it to be, and that's what, that's our goal.

We want our, our family and our home to be biblically. We, we want it to be aligned biblically. We wanna be operating and functioning biblically. Mm-hmm. And so I want Scott to be, but even if he's not operating biblically, we're still to submit to him. Yes. Okay. Yes. Just wanted to make sure that was Yes. Yes.

And I'm gonna tell you what tripped me up, just in case somebody's watching, in case you wanna clarify. Um, somebody had to be the leader. Yes. And because. You still, were not submitting to, you are still standing by that. Well, I'm not gonna follow him off. I'm not gonna take my family into a ditch and No.

Yeah, yeah. So you're not gonna like feed your kids alcohol and hang out on the streets with razor blades. I'm gonna do that, right? No, no. Like when there is a doubt, I guess in between the two things, right? We follow God, right? We follow God. Yes. That's, I hear what you're saying. Yes. I hear your heart in that.

That's what I'm saying. Um, no, when, but if he says, Hey, we're moving the family to Tennessee. Okay. You go. Okay. You would, you have went even then. Mm. There would've been a lot of issue. Yeah. There would've been a lot of, uh, fight and resistance. There would've been a lot. Mm-hmm. Um, Tennessee sounds kind of cool.

It does, it does pray about it. Yeah. But now I'd pray about it. Now I'd be like, okay. Yeah. If Scott said, you know, Lisa, it's been impressed upon me that we're gonna be moving to, I, I mean, even if he said it was, I don't know, Columbia or. You know, take it to another continent. Mm-hmm. You know, take it to Africa.

I'd be like, oh Lord Mercy. Oh, please know, but I know that, oh, please the Lord. I know that the Lord would put that confirmation in me now. I didn't know that then. Mm-hmm. And so I would've fought him tooth and nail. Mm-hmm. I would've said, no, I'm not taking my kids there. I don't know anybody. My family's here, this, that, and I don't even know if you're listening to God.

That's, that's what I would've said. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Me too. No, I, I'm saying I was the same person. Yeah. And so for anybody out there that's listening, that is going through this, I'm not mocking, you know, 'cause I, I understand. I was on that side. My husband wasn't leading us. Mm-hmm. And I was seeking God out. Um, he wasn't there.

I was here and he, he wasn't there. So, but I didn't understand what submission was. Mm-hmm. I didn't understand that. I thought it was, we'll do whatever he tells you to do. No, that's not What does submission mean to you? Submission means that I honor his position. Mm-hmm. Good. 'cause I want him to honor me and my position as a nurturer.

Um, I do hear from the Lord. And, and what's funny is how it op, how he operates in me. Like I'll just be talking and then I'll hear something really awesome come out and I'm like, oh, that was the Holy Spirit. That was really cool. Um, your definition of submission was that Yeah. That was from God, yeah.

Belief. Yeah. Did you believe that? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. It's just 'cause, well, God is honor. Mm-hmm. He's honorable and he wants us to honor, make me so happy. It is a good thing. And that's what, like we're, when, when a man finds a wife, he finds a good thing is the word. Right. And so that completion comes, and when we embrace that gift of marriage, that that is the, the marriage is the completion, the fullness of what Christ is to the church and what the family is.

And, and we are that representation of, of his perfect will. And being brought back into the garden is his perfection, and he is working that through us as we have for shedding, you know, the consequences of a sinful world that have plagued families and generations and influences. Uh, the rudder has been shifted so that we can be directed to him.

Thank God we live in this covenant. Really? Yeah. I've been smoted. Yeah. Absolutely. So what were some of the first steps that you guys took to realign your marriage? Or did it just start to happen? Was, was there anything that you can give them for advice on some steps you took? Well, or, or even in hindsight, what you would advise people?

It's the feeding of the word. Mm-hmm. It's the feeding of the word and understanding when, when I understand how Jesus is, how God is, how the Holy Spirit is.

It allows me, because I, I, the whole goal will see Jesus abides in me. So I abide in him, and as I abide in Jesus, I, I need to honor his people. My husband is his person and although he does things that might, I don't agree with, or this or that, or, you know, whatever, depends on, you know, am I hungry? Am I, where am I at my cycle?

All those things. There could be a variety of reasons. I have nothing to do with you. Yeah. But you're not perfect with you. Yeah. And at the end of the day, you know, he wants us to live in harmony and, and be together. And we've worked through that understanding of I can trust Scott. Mm-hmm. I couldn't trust him before.

Oh, okay. I can trust him. So be the word. Trust. You have to gain trust with each other. Yeah. And, and be honorable with each other so you can trust each other. I couldn't trust, I, I had a hard time trusting God. Mm-hmm. And I had a hard time trusting my husband. Mm-hmm. And once the Lord had proven himself to me, not, and I, that sounds really awful, but his word, I mean, test his word, he says, well, well his word does prove himself to us.

Right. Right. And so each time there has been something that has happened. Mm-hmm. God is faithful. He is faithful. And that trust just continues to get built up. And I'm like, okay, yeah. Okay, Lord, you are faithful. And I see it in Scott as Scott has changed. And so as he is no longer erratic and going for the, the beer and just drinking the beer and multiple beers and multiple beers to where he's drunk.

And, um, he's now leading us to church. He's seeking God first. Um, you know, when him and I have a disagreement, he's not so mad at me. It's a conversation and it's loving. And, and when I'm upset, he's gonna comfort me first before going, you can't feel that way. No. Lisa, no. He's like, babe, are you all right?

What's going on? Oh, so this is what means by love covers. Yeah. Love covers. Yeah. That's what that means. That's what that means. Mm-hmm. That's exactly what that means. And we're perfecting that we're working and, uh, and getting better in, in all of these areas. And that's what is, is so good, is that we get to see how good he is and how he is merciful as we grow.

And we need to reflect that toward each other. Mm-hmm. And continue to be merciful as we grow. Yeah. Forgiving so that we can continue to grow and then not get stuck in this. Strife position. That'll, that'll really, it stops the growth and, and, uh, knowing the gifts that are in each one of us acknowledging these gifts.

I mean, Lisa is an awesome prayer leader warrior. Amen. And I cannot step on that just because I'm the man, right? Oh, yeah. You're honoring her gift. I love it. And, and you know, I know that the, that the blessings of the Lord are rich in our family because of the praying mother. And it's the same thing that, like Paul acknowledged for Timothy and his praying mom and grandma and how much that raised him up.

Well, you could see that when she referred to Cooper's Faith when she was going to be healed, well, she's going to this church to get healed. Well, that faith was built because of a praying mom, a mom that already had instilled that foundation. And that has been the blessing of the gift of God. So I'm not.

Interested in interrupting that whatsoever. My role is different. Lift it up. Yeah. Oh yeah. My gifts are different. Yes. And so we can acknowledge those things and, and know that it's, it's okay, but she can honor what, what those gifts are in me and then that helps me fulfill 'em better. You are a prayer warrior, I will say.

Your prayers are beautiful and intense. Mm-hmm. And intense. I'm kind of a silly prayer 'cause God thinks I'm funny and we joke and we have. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. But it is, um, it's, it's, it is an experience to be in the room with you when you're praying. Hallelujah. Mm-hmm. It is, it truly is. Thanks. My life has been changed a few times.

Yeah. We've had a few prayers. Those are good things. Praise God. God is great. Praise God. Praise God. Mm-hmm. This is what I'm seeing in my husband and I when I, in our earlier, or my earlier walk even, is. When I was, I went through this period of wild obedience where whenever God said I did it, turn left here, go to the hospital, pray for a stranger.

I mean, I did it. And crazy stuff happened. Like, like I didn't move without him telling me Wow. And I don't know why I can't get back to that space for some reason. But it was, uh, it was this tight communion of just beautiful. And I was so kind to my husband during that time, and I'm still kind, I mean, I love my husband, but it was this patience in this grace that I had over him not even believing he'd come and he'd ask me about God or what I was praying about.

Wow. And it, I, it was the calmness, the gentleness in me, I believe from God that allowed that. And then I kind of backslid after that and I'm back. But I have not ever gotten to that place of, it was almost surreal. Like I can't even explain a full on trust and yeah, but it was almost like I was living on a different plane.

I wanna be back there. Yes. Yeah. But, um, with that comes a lot too, so, so, but to want that all again, but that gentleness was a really beautiful time in our marriage too. And then I noticed we had this dynamic where I didn't think God did what he should have been doing. 'cause you know, I know better than him and got a little frustrated with that.

When my aunt died, um, I had prayed over a bunch of people and they, that strangers and he had used me and they were fine. And they had awesome, like, I didn't even know them. They lived, this lady had an aneurysm. She woke up, I saw her a year later at a party and she came up and thanked me. I hadn't even know.

I had no idea. Wow. Like, who's gone? That's good. So because just went, we went and we prayed. Yeah. We came home. That's awesome. I didn't even know, I didn't even actually know why. I just thought, oh, this is what God does, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I don't even think I'd read the whole Bible yet. Mm-hmm. I just was like, oh, this is what he does.

Right. Um, and then until it didn't happen, and then I was really frustrated 'cause it was a family member of mine. Um, I, that has nothing to do with this podcast. I don't know why I'm saying it. Well, maybe it does. I think it does. How did, how did, uh, your husband react to that walk while you were doing that?

Were you conversing with him about this? He was really good with where I was and he, he would have controlling issues, so it would be kind of hard for him because I would ignore my business. It wouldn't matter. 'cause I was praying over people and I'm like, God's got it Dave. And I'd come back and there'd be sales that I had no idea where they come from.

'cause I did no marketing. I'm like, oh wow. That's God. This is just how he works, honey. Yeah. Uhhuh, Uhhuh. And then he does bless us in our obedience. Yeah. Mm-hmm. He does. Yes. He really does. He does bless us in our obedience. And um, so it kind of all worked out. Yeah. You know what I mean? It worked out that I was being who God needed me to be.

And my husband was accepting that even though he didn't quite believe it's when I fell out of obedience, it's when I fell out of that place that I still believed that I was a little irritated with God. You know? And I wasn't walking that walk like I was, that I noticed my husband and I started to drift and fight and there was an antagonistic feel.

So what's coming up in in me is. One of the things I, and I, I can't remember who I was speaking with recently about this. It may have been, you may have been another friend of mine. As we grow in knowledge in Christ, we know, right? We know. And sometimes that removes the humility because we know, and sometimes, or what, what I think can happen or what may have happened, at least in my, uh, in my instance as I've grown in Christ, I now know these things and you don't, so pride steps in.

Yeah. Yep. I know. Yep. Because I read this, I get in the word and I have revelation, so I know. So I am not putting myself in a humble position to hear what he has to say. To understand his experience or why he's at where he's at. He has his whole life before me and with me. We two people, we can, we can be here having this conversation with Scott and listening to Scott and we have two takeaways from it and two different experiences.

So his experience is not mine. And so for me to project that onto him or my knowledge or my take of it. Mm-hmm. You know, it's just, that's, that has been one of the things that I was, that I was recently talking about is the more we grow, that's where you have to be careful in becoming religious. Mm-hmm.

The more you grow and the knowledge, you're like, well, I know, I know. Okay. Lemme tell you. I know, and you don't. That is, you're speaking exactly what happened. Yeah. That's, that's exactly what happened. And so how do you humble yourself to the Lord and him using you more again when you already know? And that's where I would be mad because I too would get upset like, Lord, he's not doing it this way.

Or I, Lord, I thought you were gonna do it this way, or I thought, you know? Mm-hmm. And so what, what you thought, Lisa, like you're not all knowing? Yeah. I mean, the word talks about how we don't know. And one of my favorite scriptures that I have to go back to quite often is lean, not unto my own understanding, but trust him.

I have to trust him because I don't understand all of it. I don't, and that's okay. I'm not supposed to, I'm, that's why I have this, that's why I have this book so that I don't have to know. And that's why I have the Holy Spirit. That's why I have Jesus, and that's why I have God. I don't have to know He does.

And that's why I have my husband too. I don't have to know. He knows things that I don't. And I'm okay with that. And, and that is a true partnership. Yes. And that's, that's the reflection that Jesus, that God has ordained that, that, that we're supposed to have these intimate interactions to grow in the living word.

The word is living. It's not that you can, you can study one scripture and say, well, I know it all. Yeah. I've got it. I've got that figured out. Yeah. Because that's the season that you're in, that you've got it figured out. It's what now that will apply again and you'll have greater new Revel revelation when the Lord is pouring it out on you.

Mm-hmm. And so when you can have these conversations as Christ had with these conversations with the church, as his spirit is growing the body continually now his ever present spirit, we as husbands are supposed to be doing that with our wives. And the Holy Spirit that's in our wives is, is doing that with our children as.

Children, as you know, let's, I mean, we come to God as, as little children. That's, it's, it's such a perfection. The family is perfection. It's, and that is what's great and which is why you can see why the enemy would want to attack it. Yep. Right. Because if you wanted to attack a society and God made family as perfection mm-hmm.

What would you adapt the family to destroy it. Yeah. Yeah. And, and how do you do that? You have have this different identities, these different genders. Yeah. These different associations that destroy and make, make people think power is important. Yeah. Yeah. Divorce is the highest, uh, it's ever been, I think.

And when, you know, and so many people run to divorce and, and I did myself, I was like, I'm ready to divorce him because I didn't know what to do and I didn't. When I finally relented and yielded to the Lord and said, I can't, you have to. Mm-hmm. My husband then got rebaptized recommitted himself to the Lord and our, our whole marriage.

And everything, our family changed. Mm-hmm. I mean, it all changed because I stepped back. I still have to take an active role. Faith without works is dead, so you still have to do things. There's, but, but when I was like, I'm not doing this myself. Is there some relief in that for you? 100%. Mm-hmm. Yes. Is there some relief in it for you?

Oh yeah. That you're, where you're supposed to be, where God's guided you to? Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Now I'm not, I'm not on my own lost path. I have this, well, that's how I see these men. It's like they're, they're kind of out on their own. Sure. And these like, I feel like women and if, well, this is just my experience on Twitter, right, is these men seem so isolated and lonely.

They are. And it feels like us women not. I mean, no, I'll say that I kind of took my family and this is how it's gonna be. And you're almost an outsider now. Yes. I see it all the time. Yeah. And I, I am ashamed that I did that, but I, I can see it happens within a family and it's happening outside. It is. Well, we, we, because we don't know what to do and we haven't known what to do because we're doing it on our own, or according to the, what the world says and now what I've seen in our experiences.

Right, right. Totally. And what I've seen is, is that every time I have gone according to the world, it has not turned out well for me or my family. No. It really hasn't. No. And so just based on that test alone, I don't, I don't want it. Yeah. The world says you don't need anybody else. You can just fight and do this on your own and Yeah.

And that's so far from it. We need each other. Yeah. I need him. We need to have that safe space. And I need to, I need to be affirmed and, and, you know, and encourage that this is. And you only do that by having a good relationship. Yes. So you can en encourage each other. You need to know that you're safe.

Yeah. That you're supported, you're secure. You're right. You know that that is, that's the union. That's the something you just said is like, so men, you know, if you look at love language is a lot of time, and I don't really love that book, but yeah. I will say this. We do kinda have some basic needs, right?

Mm-hmm. Men want to be affirmed. We wanna be loved. Yes. Right? Mm-hmm. And it, it says that, so how do we affirm our submission is affirming. Mm-hmm. 'cause it says, we trust you. We look up to you and we admire you. Yeah. Mm-hmm. That's what men kind of are saying they want. Right. Right. Mm-hmm. But that's, and we exhort them.

Mm-hmm. We need to exhort and encourage. The more I encouraged Scott and the less I criticized mm-hmm. I'm talking about myself there. Not her. Yeah. The, yeah. But the less that I did that, the more he was like, oh, I'll, I'll, I'll do that again. I'll do more of that. Mm-hmm. And you know, when, when God says that he made man in his image, God says, come to me with praise and thanksgiving.

Well then I need to come to my husband with praise and thanksgiving. Thank you for working so hard. Thank you for being on the train. And I know you take time away from the family. You've missed out on a lot with the kids and, but you have provided a home. You provided, um, everything that we have has been because of your job and because of what you've done.

And I, and, and I'm so thankful for your hard work and your sacrifices. So this is a, this was a contention between me, my husband and I, he. He, um, and I really seen it 'cause I'm seeing it happen in others in social media where I thought I was okay with this. So my husband would say, I, but I'm providing for you.

I'm like, well, that's not enough, but because I just want more and more and more and more, more, right? Mm-hmm. Because I wanted to fill that hole, but Right. Jesus wasn't filling 'cause I wasn't letting him. Yeah. But, um, there is that basic, fundamental thing that men do need to do and want to do. Yes. And that is to provide for us.

Yes. And I don't think that I showed appreciation for that. No. And I didn't. And when you, because I was like, well, you shouldn't be at the railroad because it takes away from the family. It has been very hard on our marriage. Mm. And so I consistently spoke my disgruntled wife feelings and emotions and mother, you know, from mm-hmm.

This position, that scotch, well, I married him. Mm-hmm. I married him and then I wanna change him. Okay. Who's that on? That's interesting. I just saw this on TikTok. I think I sent it to you where this girl was complaining about her husband, who, um, works full-time job 50 to 60 hours a week. She works part-time job, but he wasn't doing enough at home.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And she kinda went on a five minute tirade about how inadequate he was. Hmm. Yeah. And I, but what did she want out of him? Right. She wanted to be seen. Hmm. And I think that's what, um, because out of all of that, it was, is that's what her baseline motivation was, was that she didn't see, or he didn't see her because he didn't do what she asked or she asked him to do.

So she took that as not just the act of not doing what she asked, but that he wasn't acknowledging her. Hearing her. That was way more charitable than I was thinking, but I've experienced it. This is, this is what Yes. You know, I, I, where I'm growing. Mm-hmm. And I, I can't say I've arrived, but it's, it's, it's a process.

Process. It's never a thing, is it? So I was listening to it and she was upset 'cause he didn't take the garbage out before I went to work and wash a bottle. And I thought, if that's what you're worried about, like this is, this is really the pain point in your life, but it never really is the thing, is it, it's that thing.

Its never the thing. Yeah. Yeah. We recently, we listened to, uh, this book called Extreme, uh, ownership and, uh, awesome book. Awesome book. We'll put a link to it for your family mm-hmm. For your business. Uh, because what these guys talk about is how it all starts at the top. The top. And so, Scott and I are the leaders of our family, and Scott's the head of the household.

We're both leading it. And when we take a look and see the dysfunction and realize that's on us. It's not on you. And I start looking at me. Because you're one. Yeah. Because you're a union. Yes. And every time I rip on him, I'm ripping on me. And when I rip on him, I'm ripping on God. And so I, I can't, I mean, that's old Lisa.

That's not new. Lisa. I don't wanna do that. Um, I don't either. I have an understanding. I have, I have still done it. Yeah. I, I just have an understanding it's been, it's that, that extreme leadership, what is it? It's extreme leadership. Um, I'll make sure we put a link to it and if you guys are interested, it's really good.

Um, and having that understanding that everything starts at the top. And so instead of looking to everybody else and blaming them, you look to yourself at what you can change and what you need to do because you can't change anyone else. No. The only thing you can do, and this is what my friend Lisa said in our podcast that you said, you said that really stuck with me.

You changing, you forces change around you. It does, it does. When I changed, if I did not like Scott coming home and drinking alcohol and then me, you know, nitpicking at him or this or that, I had to change what I did. Well, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna participate in this. Set a boundary. So there's a boundary.

So now you go ahead and do that. And while you do that, I'm going to be, me and the kids are gonna go to the park, or we're gonna do something else. We'll go to your parents' house or we'll go, you know? And I wasn't like, we're leaving. Bye. You know, I wasn't rude. I just made a decision to do something different instead of, um, you know, and, and I even told Scott that if you want me to change something, change how you interact with me.

And he has, he has. We both have. And so as that has happened, the change is, it's just a natural occurrence. It just, you know, it's kind of one of those things. It's like, well, I'm really tired. Well then go for a walk. What, what, what do you mean go for a walk? I wanna take a nap. I wanna take a nap. I don't, I don't wanna walk or workout.

You know? Um, it, it's that, that odd, you know? Mm-hmm. Do something different and see what happens because it will force a change and, and do something constructive and loving, not I. Oh, what's the word I'm looking for? Uh, you know, where you're vengeful. Don't be, you know, I'll show you type deal. Just Okay.

'cause this isn't working. You know, the crazy is doing the same thing and expecting a different result. And the vengefulness is really just punishing yourself too. Right, right. I went through that where I'm like, okay, you did this. Well, I'm gonna show you when you're gonna hurt, just like me, right? Mm-hmm.

And I, I'm still the one that was hurt 'cause he often didn't even know I was doing the thing. Yeah. And that's not the, you know, the love covers a multitude of sin. Yes. Recently I had, um, meditated on that scripture. And what the Lord had showed me is love is, it's not just a feel good, love is truth, love is understanding.

God wants us to bring the darkness to the light. God wants us to have an understanding. God wants us to, to be in agreement. That is love. It's not fighting, it's not being out of unity. It's, it's, it's coming to a greater understanding. And that's what I wanna do in my marriage is I wanna understand Scott, his needs, his wants, and I want him to understand mine.

Amen. And I think we both are at that level versus before it was, I want you to understand mine first, and I think that's what society has taught women mm-hmm. In this whole, um, feminism since the feminist movement Yeah. Is that we are somehow more important. And I, I do believe that is the problem, is feminism wasn't ever really about the thing.

No. It was, it was about power. Right. And this is that whole Marxism thing, which I talked about in this last podcast, but there's always a victim and there's always an oppressor. Mm-hmm. And the idea in this whole Marxist ideology is that you have to step on. Your oppressor and beat 'em down. Mm-hmm. And have power for things to be right.

Right. And then, but it doesn't make sense 'cause okay, then you're gonna step on there, you're gonna win. And then now the pendulum swung this far and now men are fighting back here. Right. It it's this really dysfunctional, sick I ideology that has permeated our world. Right. Our, our entertainment, our the movies, the social media.

Yeah. That this is okay thinking. Yeah. And it's why we have to be so separated from the world and remember the kingdom we live in. Well I see Jesus, you know, when, when they were coming after they had the woman and the men are surrounding her and they're about to stone her and you know, you got two opposing sides here and you've got this woman that's hunkered down and you know, and she did something wrong.

I get it. But here's these men about ready to stone her. And what does Jesus say? He says, go ahead. You, you who's gonna do it first? Who is without sin? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Who is without. Yep. And they're all like, oh, okay. Bye. Yep. Not me. Not me. And they won. Mm-hmm. After another, just start leaving. Mm-hmm. And, and that's not fighting.

I'm always fascinated. I mean, I get he was Jesus and there's power there, but they didn't believe he was Jesus. Right. And yet they still submitted. Submitted to what, what he said. Totally. 'cause you have to 'cause he's Jesus. Yeah. But it is interesting. Such wisdom. And they could not read. Mm-hmm. They couldn't rationalize back against that.

They were, they, they, they attempted to answer the question and he said, let the one that has no sin cast the first stone. And as they were re reflecting on themselves, they could not Yeah. Do it. It's so amazing. They couldn't do it. And so that's, that's the, to me, I wanna have those fights where it's like.

Just bring in the word and then it's like, oh, okay, everything's fizzled. Here's the water to the flame. Yeah. It just puts it out. Mm-hmm. And, and that's, that's where we, I think we have come in our marriage, we used to have these, these aggressive and, you know, fights that were so, oh. And they were exhausting.

And they'd send me into a panic attack and, and he's like, I, I, I, I can't stand you. I wanna leave. And, and now when we have a disagreement, it's healthy. Hmm. And it's 'cause they happen in marriages, right? They do. Oh, and I love my husband and I respect him and I honor him. And, but sometimes I don't agree with him and he doesn't agree with me.

And I'm okay with that. And I'm okay with my kids seeing that. And this is where the trust comes in for me. And my husband is okay. We may disagree, but I do give him the final decision. Yes, I do too. Because I do trust him. Yes, I do too. I give that to Scott. Because he is trustworthy. But that doesn't mean I don't give my opinion.

Right. And I don't back it up with scripture or with facts and say, okay, I'm gonna trust however it works out. Yeah. It's just like the leaders of the church. You know, when you're at a, when you're at a church, and I, I, I didn't always agree with, with my pastor, but what I did agree with was that he was the pastor.

He is the pastor. And so I will submit to that leading because I don't know what God is telling him. Because, because he's over this church and he's over all these people, he's getting something that I'm not. So I have to trust that. And we have to trust that that is happening with our husbands. Yes.

Mm-hmm. For sure. Yes. Yes. And that is a work, because I do believe that even before my husband was with God, I do believe God was leading my husband. I agree. He led him to me. Mm-hmm.

Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And that's where our growth is in trusting as a man, trusting that the word is already been working in us. Mm-hmm. And boy, how do we get to that point with, with this opportunity for pride and saying, well, I'm so great. Right. You know, I've, it is a process of submission to the word, and I keep through these, through this conversation.

I keep flipping. Oh yeah. That's what it, that's what it says right there, you know? And, and it is where I wanna read. Husbands love your wives just as Christ also love, love the church and gave himself or her that he might sanctify and cleanse her with a washing of the water by the word. And that's, that's the process where we let the word cleanse us, humble us.

Yes. Show us and grow us. Mm-hmm. Together with him and. That's what it's all about. It's not, it's not a you or me. Uh, you and me with him is how he's created us to be. Yeah. And you know, thank God for, uh, pastor Pamela Mays that gave us that three chord rope that we still have together. That Yes. That when we were counseling for marriage, that's what she gave us and directed us, gave us that word.

Yeah. Because the three chord strand is not easily broken. Right. It, it's not. That's the foundation. Hey, speaking of accord. Mm-hmm. Um, we have started a coaching program called Third Strand Coaching, and the idea is, it is our coaches with you and God led by the spirit so that you can experience the freedom that God really wants you to walk in.

Um, if that means healing, if that means just finding your purpose, and that's us. Or one of our coaches walking you through that with God. Sometimes it's good to have that second person. Mm-hmm. Right. For the cord. Yes. So, um, check it out. We'll have a link in the description. Yeah. And, and really like, I keep referring to the marriage and not to leave anyone out of that, because if you are a widow, if you are, um, even if you're just single and you haven't, haven't found the one, you have a purpose, you have a call to, uh, the woman has got so much, uh, influence for, for children or such a, a drive to help and teach and lead and help.

Um, there's, there's so many, so much need out there for ministry. And so getting plugged into a church where that is, that is needed is, is answering a call that's there and then just being led by the Lord to find the one that you're ordained to be married to is also. We talked a little bit earlier about being unequally yoed.

So this is what I think. I just wanna know what your guys' opinion is. So, my husband believed in God, but I believed in God. Yeah. Like he knew there wasn't God. He always, I think, sense a child like he believed in God, but I was passionate about this and I think, I'm not blaming him, this is my own fault, but often, like I wanted to go to church, I wanted to do these things and he, he just wasn't interested early in our marriage.

And it was easier to give up that fight, you know what I mean? Because we didn't, I didn't have any accountability. I didn't have anyone kinda, you know, saying, okay, it's Sunday, you gotta get outta bed 'cause it's now it's one of us. Okay, now we're going to church. Right. Yeah. But it's that even though we both believed, I don't believe we were equally oed.

Yeah. And I think that that is God's best for us to be equally yoked on that same bath following Jesus. Would you agree? I think it's interesting how we can describe what equally yoked is because you both believed in God. Mm-hmm. So you why I used to believe, right? Oh yeah. We were also married, so we were definitely yoked.

Yeah. Yeah. Which is great. So love is mm-hmm. Patient, long suffering, gentle kind. And so through that process, you don't, you, you do not need to be, um, well, you're, you're not doing the, you know, you're mm-hmm. You don't need to be criticizing, you need to be patient with, with how God is growing us, maturing us to be what we might perceive as what equally yolked is, you know, where.

Be still and know that I am. Yeah, that's great. It's a journey, right? Mm-hmm. It is. And I think that sometimes I will forget because I want everyone to be where, you know, like, we're on the same path. I want you on my path, like exactly where I'm at and, and I'm sure. And now there's times where he wants me to be on the path where he's at.

Right. But I think that is giving grace that we're not exactly in the same place. Yeah. I have had, uh, conversations, of course interacting with people at work is, is interesting. But one guy in particular in particular is, was, is a Catholic and was raised devout. He's married to a witch, a. Okay, now that's unequally.

That's unequally yolked. That's obvious. Right. And to me, I'm like, oh, well you guys are in conflict. There's gonna be problems. Right? Yeah. Big conflict. How can you be, is there less of problems in their marriage? Yeah, there's and yeah, there's, there's destruction. There's, yeah. Their family's not just that.

I'd mentioned that. Yes. It's not, and so you can judge how their fruit is from that. It, okay. So that's what's interesting about like the Bible people, like it's this book of rules I just don't wanna adhere to. Or it's like it's, I wanna live in the world, but it's for his best. Yeah. You know, that my husband and I weren't maybe in that same place, um, for many years, made it difficult.

Mm-hmm. That's why I thought maybe it was unequally yoked, um, because it was so difficult and so there was so much strife. Yeah. Yeah. And so much contention that it was a constant. Well, like Scott said, and this is one of the things I love about him, is he just. Brings those boom moments where you're like, oh, okay.

So yeah, you were equally yoked because you did have a belief in God. Mm-hmm. Um, sometimes you just have something that you need to work out and through and so does your husband. Mm-hmm. And you have to trust, especially if you are a believer and you are praying and you are seeking him, and you're, then you have to trust that he's there and he's helping you and him through this or you and her through this.

Mm-hmm. Instead of going, it's not happening on my time. Right. And I expect it. I have these expectations. Your expectations of God should only be good. Yes. And going, okay, I trust that because I'm speaking this word, I'm speaking it over my, I'm not speaking death over my husband. My husband is a leader. He does lead us.

He, he financially provides for us. He does love me, he does love our children, and he does provide for me on all my needs. And so when you speak those things versus. You gotta get it together, bro. Like, you're just not enough. You're not enough. That word cannot come in and work. No. And how would it feel to be constantly told you're not enough.

Yeah. You're not enough. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Vice versa. If he's saying that about me, you nag your hand, whatever he got. And that's exactly what the contention was. Mm-hmm. Um, you're not enough. I'm not gonna be enough for you ever. I mean, that, that was fight. It's because I'm expecting him. Mm-hmm. To fulfill what I need to, to take care of.

Mm-hmm. And what I need to do instead of, again, that extreme leadership and ownership. Mm-hmm. Focus on you. Focus on you and what you need to do, Lord. I mean, be like David. That's why, that's why God had such a love for David, is because David's like. Change my heart, Lord, change my heart. I know what I did was wrong and I don't wanna be that person.

And I just love the, the feeling that that gives me, that David was so terrible and still so loved by God. Yeah. Yeah. Right. What a gift. Right, right. Oh yeah. Absolutely. But that was, but everyth, everything can be redeemed. So your marriage has been redeemed. Yes. Amen. Yes. 'cause you let God do his work. Yes.

It's God. Yeah. Yeah. And we not invited him in in 2000 and when did we get married? 2006. Mm-hmm. If we had not invited Jesus in, we would not be married. Yeah. He's been with us since before we met. Yeah. And so he's never left us nor forsaken us, nor forsaken us. Mm-hmm. And he's always guiding us. Mm-hmm. He's, and when we didn't even acknowledge him, yeah.

He led us beside the still waters. And when we were acting like retches, both of us, we, we, we both did things that we shouldn't have done. He still has loved us through it. And this is the beauty of a marriage this long. So my husband and I have been, get together 30 years and sometimes I'll hear people say, young people say, we just, we've been too through much.

We can't come back from it. Yeah. That's not true. That's a lie, right? That's a lie. That's a lie. Yeah. We have been through a lot and I still wouldn't change who I married. I'd do it again. I would too. I would do it again with Scott. There is nobody that has loved me like Scott has. There's not one person, there, has not been a person that has forgiven me, has, um, stood by my side and trusted that I would be a parent.

I, I, I was nervous about being a parent, but he was like, we've had one. Let's have two. I'm like, oh gosh, that's scary. But he's like, no. And he always says, what a great mother I am. You are a good mom. And I don't see that, but he sees it. I do. Well, your kids, the fruit of your children, the children, they're, they're amazing.

They're, that's the word of God. Mm-hmm. Amazing. Scott. You know, I would do it all over again with Scott and even through all the junk that we went through. There's not a person, there's not a person. What a testimony. Yeah. There's not a person in my past that I would say, Hey, let's, I'll redo this with you.

Yeah. No, yeah. Goodbye. Yeah. And likewise, thank God for the experiences. Thank God for the process of growing. Yeah. As the stretching is, is is painful, but, and the reflecting of, of who I was and how to be, and, and I mean, it's a, it's been growth. Well, how do you grow if you don't stretch a little bit? Yeah.

It's painful at times and, uh, you know, but it's, it's so much better. And I'm, I'm looking forward to more. Yeah. Dito. That's awesome. Iron sharpening iron right here. Mm-hmm. That's awesome. Well, thank you guys. Do you have any parting advice for the folks watching? I would say to those I, you know, I'd speak to the females out there and I would say if, for those of you that are in a marriage or a relationship where you are leading, I would say continue.

Continue to seek the Lord, continue to pray for your spouse and, um, and trust that his word will position you accordingly. Don't stop and make an abrupt turn. You know, it's so much trauma and so much things happen in life and it, it's okay that you work through it and it's okay that you are positioned wrong right now.

Trust that the Lord will position you accordingly. And then speaking for the men, uh, I think it's, it's vital to be, uh, a good leader, a strong leader, and trust the Lord is, is leading you and equipping you. He doesn't give you more than you can handle, so. Submitting to God in all things helps you resist the devil.

And so let the word lead you. Be patient with yourself and, and love your helper. Help love your wife. Um, she has been assigned to you with you and, and as you grow together, the completion of, of God's plan is, is working and it's, it's gonna be, uh, perfected in the full day. So, uh, submit to God and, and be the leader that you're called to be.

Praise God. I love the happy marriages that I get to see being part of a Christian community. Mm-hmm. And that's, that's the difference from out there to here. Mm-hmm. Um, thank you guys so much for coming. Mm-hmm. I am hoping this blesses all of you. And thank you guys for tuning in. Feel free to comment if, um, you agree or don't agree with anything we said, we, we light the feedback and we are willing to take in and, um, receive what is true and maybe argue with you if you're wrong.

Yeah, just joking kind of. Thank you. Just joking you.