Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Welcome to "No F**ks Given," where we redefine menopause as a superpower. Hosted by Holly Lamb, a women's health coach, who is navigating early menopause. This podcast offers empowering guidance on women's health and navigating perimenopause with confidence. From nutrition tips to fitness advice and mindfulness practices, we cover it all. But here's the twist: it's all about embracing your most authentic, unapologetic self. We're here to help you reclaim your power, say goodbye to societal norms, and live life on your own terms—no f**ks given. Welcome to the revolution!
Holly Lamb (00:01.679)
Hello everybody and welcome to this week's episode of the podcast, No Fucks Given with your host Holly Lamb. This week I am joined by Sally, who is a registered psychologist, somatic therapist, embodied guide and therapeutic specialist yoga teacher. She is trained in a number of somatic and therapeutic approaches, including somatic approach to trauma therapy,
and specialist areas, including women's health, and is passionate about offering support for empowerment, understanding and getting unstuck, particularly within the areas of trauma and women's health, so that we can reconnect to the core of who we are in this messy shared human experience. I have...
work with Sally for a bit. We've done some yoga classes, some retreats, and she does an amazing class called Shake the Dust where you just get out of your head and into your body. But she offers therapy, yoga retreats, psychological support, and specialized offerings for individual schools and organizations. So welcome Sally. It's so nice to have you on the podcast.
Sally (01:14.638)
Oh, thank you, Holly. It's wonderful to be here. I'm really excited to have a chat.
Holly Lamb (01:19.503)
Thank you. So yeah, we're just going to kind of dive into how your work can help support women going through this phase of life. But first I'd like to kind of talk about how you got into this line of work.
Sally (01:33.966)
Mm, yes, yeah, my journey has taken me on multiple pathways and it really started with my own struggles with mental health from being a teenager, really. And I truly believe that, especially as women, we do go through a number of humongous shifts in life, whether that's different roles that we take on.
whether you want to see it through different archetypes. And I myself have kind of experienced that from really struggling in my younger years with issues like self -image, poor confidence. I was then diagnosed with depression in my earlier 20s.
looking back had a real disconnection with my body and didn't really have many practices that were more holistically orientated, if you like. Did a lot of masking to try and fit in. So again, kind of speaking more from the archetype when I was in my more maiden era, did a lot of masking around sort of
and alcohol and also kind of experienced bullying in my school years. So kind of got into my twenties having had a real focus in my life on academia and having studied a huge amount and having been really interested in how humans work.
how humans operate, human development specifically, how our processes of attachment and early attachments can go on to influence us and affect us later in life. So I then kind of continued on that path of study and became a registered psychologist, primarily working in education.
Sally (03:57.39)
but I also qualified as a yoga teacher the same year. So first few years I was kind of trying to do both, but, and I think a lot of people experience this, but in different ways that you know you have interests or passions, but you're not quite sure how to bring them together or, you know, you kind of maybe work across different.
context different situations, but you feel that like they're quite disjointed and I I felt like that for a little bit so I was doing psychology and yoga teaching and Always also felt this drive of more more more, you know more training More certificates more different strings to my to my bow and
Holly Lamb (04:28.207)
Hmm.
Sally (04:52.046)
and then eventually realize that the integration of all of that is also really important. So in amongst the training that I did as a yoga teacher was a huge focus on women's health and the therapeutic application of yoga, the full rounded practice of yoga to women's health.
Holly Lamb (05:00.655)
Hmm.
Sally (05:19.854)
So my professional and personal background, a lot of that did stem with my own difficulties and struggles and my increasing passion over the years to the application of more body -based therapeutic processes, but also how we include the body in therapy, not in a way that views it from
the outside in and getting everything right, you know, whether that's trying to do something to achieve a particular physical goal. I think that absolutely has its place. But I know from my own personal experiences of getting to know my own body and what that has looked and felt like.
that it's been more a sense of experiencing that from the inside out rather than trying to work towards a particular goal that's been more transformative for me personally, I guess. And in terms of the application of yoga to menopause and other women's health issues,
Holly Lamb (06:34.287)
Hmm.
Sally (06:45.358)
Again, that stemmed from my own difficulties in my own menstrual cycle. So attempts to conceive, having a longer menstrual cycle, having some symptoms that came with that, and really kind of getting to know, again, getting to know myself, but also getting to know...
the different therapeutic models that can be supportive with that. So now I work a lot with traditional Chinese medicine and that came with study and training, but it also came with going to see an acupuncturist myself and having that really sort of personalized experience, if you like. And I love, I mean, everything I do now really, I offer through the lens of,
Holly Lamb (07:34.095)
Hmm.
Sally (07:42.19)
traditional Chinese medicine. It's just been something that has really resonated with me. And I love this idea of seeing health more holistically, you know, because I think health in the West, we pick it apart a lot. And it's very, you might go and see a health practitioner and you focus on.
Holly Lamb (07:54.159)
Mm. Yeah.
Sally (08:09.806)
one symptom or one part of your body. And for me, it has to be an individual, individually led experience. So I'm absolutely not knocking Western medicine whatsoever. I think it's obviously contributed huge things to our knowledge and understanding. But if you look to more Eastern models and you look at how they incorporate,
a more well -rounded view of the individual. So taking into account emotional health and physical health and mental health and all the things, it just makes sense to me. And the more I've sort of learned and understood about traditional Chinese medicine, it's just been hugely helpful.
Holly Lamb (08:53.551)
Hmm.
Sally (09:07.854)
for me. And so I offer yoga and kind of movement practices through that lens as well. And I think when we can sort of understand where we might be a little bit more out of balance and what we can put in place to support that, it can be really helpful. Yeah, so.
Holly Lamb (09:34.895)
Mm. Yeah.
Sally (09:37.23)
that's it's kind of where it's got me too really.
Holly Lamb (09:40.847)
Amazing. It sounds like you've had an amazing journey to kind of get to where you are now. And it does show how much going inwards can really completely change your life. And that's something that I've found over the past few years since my diagnosis of early menopause. The difference has been going inwards and changing the inside and then the outside does change. And like you said with...
with Western medicine, it is very much reactive medicine. Obviously the first step for me was to go on HRT and yes, it helped, absolutely, but I felt a massive disconnect from my body, which I didn't like. I felt like I was back on the pill again and I felt very dumb down, like numb. So.
For me personally, finding the holistic practices that now help me has been a complete game changer and that's kind of the way I want women to view it. I mean, there's definitely a place for HRT for some women. I completely understand that, but it's not a plaster. You need to do all the other things as well in order to feel better.
Sally (10:58.702)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you know, I think a lot of, not only women, but definitely some women are served things up on a plate that, like you said, you know, can often act as plasters or mask certain or other symptoms that may be going on. So, you know, ultimately if, if...
your self -care strategies aren't there, or like you said, your introspection or, and as I've said, it has to be individual led, right? It has to be personalized. And that is also the thing with prescriptions or some other things from modern medicine is that they're often not. It's a kind of like, well, let's try it and see. And that's absolutely not to say that it can't have a positive effect.
Holly Lamb (11:48.815)
Mm -hmm.
Sally (11:54.414)
but it's also about lifestyle, isn't it? And there is also something crucial there, I think, around the existing attitudes, around the shifts for women that do take place. And I know we're gonna go on to discuss this, but for menopause, I know it can come on in a number of different ways for different women.
Holly Lamb (12:06.063)
Hmm.
Sally (12:22.382)
But we do have this attitude, don't we, towards, I know you experienced early onset, but just menopause and shifts for women generally, it's like we have this attitude of women kind of being in their prime. And it's really hard to not attach yourself to that. Like, I feel that. I mean, I'm, how old am I? I'm 35, be 36 this year. Recently had a baby and it's like the whole...
Holly Lamb (12:30.383)
Hmm.
Holly Lamb (12:35.183)
Mm.
Sally (12:50.67)
aging thing and the whole, you know, now you've had a baby thing, what happens? And, and I think that is, although we can't necessarily do anything about that, but you can be aware of how you might be attached to that, you know, in terms of how you feel about certain changes happening in, in your life. And if you look to other,
Holly Lamb (12:54.383)
Mm.
Holly Lamb (13:10.479)
Mm.
Sally (13:20.078)
cultures, ones that have been around for centuries and centuries, Mayan, for example, they really see older women as elders to be respected and that we can learn a lot from, you know, the ones that look after the younger women and not sort of this idea that we, I think it's...
Holly Lamb (13:40.847)
Mm.
Sally (13:49.166)
possibly shifting a bit, but we do have this kind of idea that older women sort of come out of, you know, they've stopped working or whatever and become perhaps quite isolated and children leave. And it's kind of like, what now? You know, what's my purpose? Maybe life was so full of whether it's work or whether it's the kids or whatever. And although that doesn't...
Holly Lamb (14:07.791)
Hmm.
Sally (14:17.806)
you might not think necessarily that that has a direct relationship with the symptoms of menopause. You know, and it's almost impossible to kind of prove that, I guess, but it does have an effect. You know, it does have an effect that the attitude and how we feel towards it. And I think that's just something, it's interesting to bear that in mind.
Holly Lamb (14:35.503)
Mm -hmm.
Sally (14:47.118)
Because change is natural and menopause is an example of that. And I think we as humans, and it often makes our experiences really complex because we love the new beginnings almost. We love the kind of fresh starts and we love the quick fixes, problem solvers, but there's other things that we're less
Holly Lamb (15:11.919)
Mm.
Sally (15:16.91)
comfortable with, like the endings, you know, or the getting older or, you know, there's things that don't feel as good. And, and it's interesting to observe that within yourself, I think.
Holly Lamb (15:21.551)
Mm.
Holly Lamb (15:29.423)
Mm.
Holly Lamb (15:35.535)
Yeah. Yeah, it's so true. Like you said, back in different cultures, older women were revered and the younger women would go to them for counsel and for help. Whereas in this day and age, it's, oh, 50 plus and you're on the scrap heap, which is just absolutely ridiculous. It's just crazy. I think the narrative is shifting slowly.
Sally (15:56.11)
Yeah, yeah.
Holly Lamb (16:02.607)
I was reading a really lovely book called The Goddess Path about the different stages in a woman's life and how when you get to that age, it's something to be grateful for and you step into this completely different era, this different power that you kind of like all that, obviously you don't know everything, but within you, you know everything that you need to know and you're just comfortable in your own skin. And that's just.
Sally (16:27.95)
Mm -hmm.
Holly Lamb (16:29.583)
a lovely place to be able to get to because back in your 20s when you cared what everybody thought of you, whereas for me personally, I'm only 36 and now I don't care. I literally don't care and it's so liberating because it's just a nice place to be. If we can try and shift the narrative to that, that would be amazing for every woman to know that it's something they're going to step into.
Sally (16:44.59)
it is. Yeah, yeah.
Sally (16:52.75)
Yeah.
Sally (16:57.774)
Mm hmm. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And it's the archetype of the crone, right? And that's yeah, crone is seen as a really powerful figure. And there is there is a lot that can be said about regaining your power, your sense of power, empowerment, you know, power is so vital for for women in the later years. But but you know, when we talk about later years, it's like, it can start right can start from
Holly Lamb (17:02.031)
Yes.
Holly Lamb (17:14.191)
Mm. Mm.
Sally (17:27.278)
any age, like, especially 30s, 40s. And there is this, there, yeah, there is this thing as well about just change being normal and natural. And I know this hasn't been your experience, but there is this possibility of menopause actually not needing necessarily a lot of, a huge amount of medical intervention or support, right? I think there's also quite a lot of fear about it now. I know that we've got...
we've got more awareness around it and it's less of a taboo subject, which is fantastic. But then there's like that kind of balancing act, isn't there, between it being less taboo and more spoken about, but then that not tipping over to let's be really scared about it because something really awful is gonna happen to me at a certain point. And actually...
Holly Lamb (18:08.271)
Mmm.
Sally (18:23.15)
you know, what traditional Chinese medicine says anyway, and other more holistic models of health is that the thing that causes the issues is the context that you find yourself in, right? So the chronic stress and the lack of self care and other sort of toxins that may be around or within you. And I think once you start to sort of see that, especially when it comes to like,
Holly Lamb (18:35.983)
Hmm.
Sally (18:52.846)
thyroid functioning and adrenals. If you've taken care, then actually the symptoms might not be that bad. Yeah.
Holly Lamb (18:55.951)
Yeah.
Holly Lamb (19:05.647)
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. It's, they say it's about slowing down when you start to hit perimenopause and the self care is so, so important. And for so many women, they just don't understand the concept of self care. Or I always get, I don't have time and I'm like, you have to make time. You have to make time. Otherwise you will get to this stage where you are just constantly stressed.
and your body can't cope and then you'll just burn out and then you'll have to take time off because it's going to be forced. Whereas if you stop and just be like an hour a week, just start with an hour a week and put some time in there for you, it will just make such a difference. And it is a time where you do start to slow down a little bit and that's okay. And with most women in perimenopause, they're still having some kind of a menstrual cycle. So,
been in harmony with that menstrual cycle and slowing down when you're on your period. That's what we're supposed to do. But again, we're not told these things. We're not taught these things. We just kind of have to muddle through and get on with it.
Sally (20:08.91)
Yeah, yeah, definitely. And, you know, there is this very, the natural shift that happens in the menopause, because actually, again, speaking through the lens of traditional Chinese medicine, having a period every month is actually really depleting for our system. So traditional Chinese medicine talks of this idea of yin, and yin is something that is,
prenatal, so it's something that we're just born with and it's kind of like our life force and it's kind of like the deepest reservoir of energy and support that we can have and it's linked with the organ system or the organ of the kidneys. So it's really supportive to kind of keep that nourished.
Holly Lamb (21:07.439)
Mm.
Sally (21:07.63)
But having a period every month kind of depletes our yin every month basically. So when the periods are no longer happening, our body, or our body is getting ready for that to happen at least, then our body starts to adapt to that. So I think it's just these like small shifts in narrative that you can have. Cause if you actually realize that, okay, so the...
Having a period is naturally depleting for the body. So when that's not happening, actually the hormones in my body are going to shift and change to adapt to that. And there is gonna be maybe some energy there that I can fill and use. And I know that's not the experience of a lot of menopausal women, but internally somewhere that is happening, you know? So it's...
Holly Lamb (21:52.687)
you
Holly Lamb (22:05.359)
Hmm.
Sally (22:06.606)
I think there is something about how you feel about the changes happening to you. And like you've said, kind of how we view self -care as well, and self -care being a way of life rather than just the odd thing that you do here or there. And I see it around me all the time, you know, this...
Holly Lamb (22:24.911)
Hmm.
Sally (22:35.47)
There's just, there's so much going on for so many of us, isn't there? Especially women, there's like so many expectations that other people have for us, so many different roles that we take on. And I think that creates a huge thing in society for women when they might slow down or stop working and there's less of a caregiving role. And it's actually...
a really welcome invitation for those resources to then be sent inwards. But that's really uncomfortable, you know, for a lot of people, because like you say, how do I do that? And oh my God, I've got these like massive gaps in my life. And how do I fill that space? And that, yeah, they're not having time narrative. It's kind of being able to observe.
Holly Lamb (23:08.559)
Mm.
Holly Lamb (23:20.143)
Mm.
Holly Lamb (23:27.055)
Mm.
Sally (23:32.27)
that, isn't it? You know, observe what's going on for you in the first place to then make the changes, I think.
Holly Lamb (23:33.583)
Hmm.
Holly Lamb (23:38.383)
Yeah, yeah, no, I can, I completely agree with that. And especially what you said about the mindset kind of side of it. I think that does play a massive part in it. You know, for example, if you wake up every day and you like, you dread going to work, for example, you'll have a, you'll have a crap day at work. Whereas if you get up every day and go today is going to be a good day, today will be a good day because you're looking at it through a different lens. So if you can look through perimenopause.
Sally (23:46.35)
and
Holly Lamb (24:06.287)
into menopause through the lens of this is happening for me, not to me. And I'll have to deal with what comes up. But if you've got all the tools in the toolbox to deal with it, self -care, you know, exercise, sleep, nutrition, all the little things that will help you on your journey, it just makes it so, so much easier. Yeah.
Sally (24:12.462)
Mm -mm.
Sally (24:32.75)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah.
Holly Lamb (24:35.631)
And then I just wanted to touch on a little bit more about the yoga side of what you do and how the therapeutic yoga can support women kind of going through menopause, both physically and emotionally. If you could dive into that a little bit more, that'd be amazing.
Sally (24:41.006)
Yep. Yep.
Sally (24:53.678)
Yeah, absolutely, yeah. With different yoga practices, it's all about understanding the pattern, especially for women experiencing perimenopausal or menopausal symptoms, understanding what's kind of going on for them and then how you can match the practices or the combination of practices accordingly, right?
So in traditional Chinese medicine, there are some really common patterns that we tend to see when it comes to menopause. And a lot of women, there is this pattern of what we call deficiency. So it basically means that there is something kind of lacking in the system.
but there can also be something going on called, we call it stagnation. So sometimes there might be something that we call chi stagnation. So chi is like this, it's the kind of energy moving around your system basically. And chi has a real like sense of spark and movement to it. It's kind of like a, like a,
rising through you and yoga and movement can be a really supportive way of cultivating and kind of managing chi and also you can have blood stagnation which doesn't mean when I say that people might think of you know literal blood that there's like a lack of blood in your system it's more just a
a concept from traditional Chinese medicine. But yeah, blood is, the movement of blood is super, super important. So it's really important to understand kind of what's going on for you. So for example, when there is a deficiency of kidney yin, for example, then...
Sally (27:17.39)
This, and this is one of the most common things to be going on in menopause, but even for women in kind of 30s and 40s. So that might look like a lot of sort of restless, anxious feelings. Also, you know, as you're, if you've still got periods, but you're feeling those kind of perimenopausal symptoms, it may be a really light period.
It may be that you notice that you have long or short cycles. Yeah, and so we kind of really also kind of like a sense of dryness is a big sign of deficiency. And a lot of women do tend to have a yin deficiency going on. So...
Holly Lamb (27:59.791)
Mm -hmm.
Sally (28:15.406)
Yin and restorative practices and really factoring in that downtime when it comes to looking at your whole lifestyle as well and looking at stress and energy management practices in yoga are really important because I think...
Unfortunately, it's people that need the sort of more yin and restorative practices are the least likely to take them. So it's people who are kind of really drawn to a lot of movement. Maybe they love the like, you know, the buildup of kind of heat and movement in their system, whether that's from like, whatever, you know, hot yoga or lots of time in the gym.
Holly Lamb (28:46.959)
Hmm.
Holly Lamb (29:03.279)
Hmm.
Sally (29:03.566)
really long walks and it's not that there's anything wrong with movement but it's finding that balance and for some people that might be finding very simple well to start with quite simple routines of maybe more dynamic what we reference as yang type movements and practices in the morning.
and then building in more of a yin building routine in the evening. So before bed, you know, even if it's kind of like five, 10, 15 minutes of an earlier bedtime and then finding something, whether that's like, you know, one restorative yoga shape or even like a foot massage or, you know, all that kind of preparation for sleep is going to, um,
Holly Lamb (29:38.543)
Mm.
Holly Lamb (29:58.607)
Hmm.
Sally (30:01.486)
balance that yin deficiency in your system. But like I've said, it is kind of super, super, super important to kind of understand what's going on for you. And so for other people, for example, like liver -chi stagnation, which can come up both when you are having periods and when you haven't.
Holly Lamb (30:17.423)
Mm.
Sally (30:31.694)
If you really feel, so a sign of that might be feel you're really prone to irritability, to frustration. Often if you've had a prolonged period on any kind of oral contraception or chronic stress, that can lead to liver cheese stagnation. Often, and this was the case for me, I had signs of this, it can be delayed ovulation. So it's like your body's kind of constantly trying to spark and then nothing happens.
What are some of the other signs of liver tree? So the irritability is a huge one, definitely. Irregular periods, feeling like you really have a strong reaction or response to stress day to day. Then movement and sort of therapeutic movement and getting a sense of flow in your system. So, you know, sun salutations or whatever that might be.
Holly Lamb (31:11.279)
Mm.
Holly Lamb (31:20.399)
Yeah.
Sally (31:31.566)
That's really supportive of liver, liver cheese stagnation. And confusingly, you can be deficient in some areas and then have a stagnation or excess in others, right? So you can have, you can have both going on, especially in around the time of the menopause. So that's why getting the balance of, okay, so I'm going to build in more of like a yang orientated movement in.
Holly Lamb (31:35.343)
Mm.
Holly Lamb (31:52.943)
Mm.
Sally (32:00.814)
in the morning and then build in some more yin nourishing practices in the evening can be really vital. But what I tend to see and what I've experienced is that it's hard to find that balance between the two. You know, you're kind of like all for one or you're all for the other. So you either spend a lot of time in stillness and find it really hard to get going and get moving or
Holly Lamb (32:19.567)
Mm.
Sally (32:28.398)
you're constantly in movement and don't really know how to relax. So I think that's the thing about yoga is that it can be supportive of both depending on what you need. Yeah.
Holly Lamb (32:32.399)
Mm.
Holly Lamb (32:41.615)
Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's true even with your classes that I've been to, there is movement, but there's also a lot of stillness as well. And it is completely different to your traditional yoga that you used to go into. But for me personally, it's just a lovely practice because it's completely different and you get the best of both worlds. And yeah, it really, it really supports women who would struggle to slow down because they do get...
you know, the nice movements of yoga, but then you do get the lovely stillness, which how often do you just kind of lay there on a mat, quiet for 10 minutes with no phone, no nothing, nothing to think about, just been there in the present moment and that doesn't happen. So I would highly recommend this kind of work for any perimenopausal woman who really struggle to slow down because it's a game changer, 100%.
Sally (33:34.894)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And sometimes you do need to take yourself to something, right, to experience that. It's like, oh yeah, I'm gonna find like five or 10 minutes here or there. But I think then you can start to take some of the practices in your own time. But because of...
Holly Lamb (33:42.959)
Mmm, yes.
Sally (33:59.022)
how life is for many of us. It's super hard to do that to start, right? Like it's all well and good, me saying, oh yeah, you know, build up a bedtime routine. And that's why I always say to people, to clients, like, well, let's think about what's reasonable for you, what's manageable. Like, what do the five minutes before you are trying to get to sleep look like? You know, could it be...
Holly Lamb (34:03.567)
Mmm.
Sally (34:26.83)
whatever it is, you know, one evening a week or yeah, five, 10 minutes here or there. And I think this like, this commitment to sort of recharging and also, yeah, seeing it, so look, seeing it holistically, looking at nutrition, looking at sleep, because perimenopausal women definitely need more sleep. So it's all the routines around sleep to maintain good health.
Holly Lamb (34:28.207)
Mm.
Holly Lamb (34:56.719)
Mm -hmm.
Sally (34:57.134)
And it's this idea that, because you mentioned the narrative around not having time, it's like, okay, but what else are you spending time on in the day? And there's so, and I'm a victim to this myself and I absolutely get it, but it's like, where else is pulling on your time and energy and noticing how you feel after, whether it's scrolling, whether it's,
binge watching something and like, yeah, like I said, I get pulled into that all the time. And I think it's not like it's, I think you have to notice almost the negative effects of how you feel from that to them want to change it, right? And like with electronics and exercise and I think sometimes unfortunately with movement and exercise, you have to do something for...
Holly Lamb (35:26.479)
Mm.
Sally (35:55.95)
for sometimes for a long period of time to then notice how actually quite depleting it is. And we all like, this is, you know, kind of circling back around what I started saying, but we all go in phases, right? So like, and everything shifts. So it's okay for something to work for you for a bit of time and then maybe it doesn't for a bit. And then maybe you find a different version of it. You know, like everything is always changing.
Holly Lamb (36:02.511)
Mmm.
Holly Lamb (36:12.303)
Mm -hmm.
Holly Lamb (36:25.295)
Yeah. Like with seasons of your life, you have phases of your life where things don't always click as they used to. Like I've been through a phase where I preferred running rather than going to the gym just because I wanted to be outside. And that's okay, because I'm still moving my body. It's just in a different way. So we should never feel guilty about wanting to do something slightly different. But...
when they start to have the negative impact on our life, then sometimes we do have to kind of notice what's happening and go, okay, I think I need to change this. And we're all guilty of sat there scrolling for half an hour and then the time's gone. Everybody does it, but if you can catch yourself quicker and notice it and stop yourself, then that's when things start to change.
Sally (36:58.094)
Mm -hmm.
Sally (37:12.206)
Yeah, absolutely. And it's also like being an observer of what might be accumulating for you, right? Whether that's worries or tension or, you know, cause I think our health does speak volumes and our health speaks volumes around our lifestyle. And, you know, not only like the actions that we're taking, but also it's the more subtle things, isn't it? You know?
Holly Lamb (37:18.991)
Mm.
Holly Lamb (37:40.911)
Mm -hmm.
Sally (37:42.382)
Because if we're doing a lot of the depleting things for a sustained period of time, it makes sense that we're more likely to catch whatever bug is around or just feel exhausted or feel like the work week just seems to get on top of us more often than not. And yeah, it's so easy just to keep going, keep going, keep going before there's a big crash.
Holly Lamb (38:10.671)
Mm.
Sally (38:11.118)
But there's also this, you know, finding a way of letting go, even on a day -by -day basis, just noticing what's taking up space within you. And it's not like, I don't really believe in this idea of, well, just let it go and it's gone forever, you know? It doesn't, that's not life.
Holly Lamb (38:25.967)
Mm.
Holly Lamb (38:34.511)
Yeah.
Sally (38:39.246)
And I, so I teach, as you know, through the lens, philosophically speaking of non -dual Shaiva Tantra, which is not just about having a good sex life, by the way. Yeah. But that Tantra kind of speaks to this idea of like, you are,
Holly Lamb (38:49.199)
Mm.
Holly Lamb (38:52.687)
It helps.
Sally (39:04.782)
everything that is a part of you is a part of you, right? So when you're sitting and meditating, you're meditating with your thoughts and with stuff that comes up and not just trying to ascend or push stuff away. And it's actually like the worldly concerns that we have and understanding that being with our body and in our body can be a form of awakening.
Holly Lamb (39:19.759)
Mm.
Holly Lamb (39:34.095)
Mm.
Sally (39:34.51)
And it's not just about escapism or trying to get to somewhere else, right? And this is the thing about trying to let go of everything. It's like if I could just, you know, whatever, live on a desert island or if I could like live how the monks used to live and when they were sat meditating for hours every day in silence and in, you know, that's not life now, right? So we kind of have to understand that,
Holly Lamb (39:43.119)
Yeah.
Holly Lamb (39:57.231)
Hmm.
Sally (40:04.878)
We are bringing our worldly concerns with us. And yes, energetically, of course, we can cut ties and we can let go of things. But it doesn't mean they're not gonna come back around again or that when you wake up, you've still got to be with the same stuff, right? And the same being with that is what makes us
Holly Lamb (40:22.479)
Mm.
Holly Lamb (40:29.327)
Mm.
Sally (40:34.19)
human. So it's kind of how we see it and how we approach it rather than like that stuff is still going to be there, you know. But yeah, having said that, of course it's like feeling how can I shift my perspective or how can I feel differently perhaps about the concerns or worries that I've got. I do think that that can make a difference for sure.
Holly Lamb (40:42.991)
Mm.
Holly Lamb (41:01.551)
Hmm.
Yeah, it's about sitting with the feelings, not just pushing them away and trying to push them to the back. Sitting with them and moving through them and dealing with them is what helps you grow and helps you become a better version of yourself so that you become less reactive to things. Because for me personally, that's how I've dealt with things. I'm less reactive to things because I can sit and notice.
the feeling before jumping into the reaction and that's, that's helped me massively.
Sally (41:38.35)
Yeah, yeah. And this is, you know, this is another important part, I think, of the self -care topic with menopause to speak to, right? It's like, you've got to know your stressors. Like, you've got to know what creates those reactions and what puts you in a more sympathetic branch of your nervous system, if you like, if you want to start kind of using that sort of terminology. But...
Holly Lamb (41:52.367)
Hmm.
Holly Lamb (42:08.207)
Yeah.
Sally (42:08.75)
It's really important, I think, as you shift towards menopause, like, what's going to create that scenario for you where you might binge watch and eat junk food and then maybe, like, feel terrible and beat yourself up for the rest of the weekend, or whatever it is. Like, is it going to be a round with your partner or a crappy day at work or whatever it is, like...
Holly Lamb (42:24.719)
Mm.
Sally (42:38.414)
it's making those connections internally as well, and then choosing to respond in a different way. And it's a lifetime of practice, right? It's not just like, okay, you know, I got this, but it's definitely, yeah, you've got to feel and sense into that. Like you can figure it out from a cognitive perspective, I think, but there's...
Holly Lamb (42:41.391)
Mmm.
Holly Lamb (42:48.399)
Yeah.
Sally (43:07.47)
Sometimes when you think you've got it figured out, it's, well, firstly, it's very difficult still to make any changes. But then if you, it's almost like you create a bit of a disconnect between, okay, I think I know what I've got to do, but I still don't really, I'm either like mistrusting my body or I'm really like, you know.
Holly Lamb (43:22.127)
Mm.
Sally (43:29.902)
feeling crap about this change that I'm going through, or I just feel very disconnected from my body in some way, I do think that any change that you try and implement is gonna be quite short -lived.
Holly Lamb (43:40.527)
Yeah, yeah, it is difficult because you're used to doing the same thing again and again. And that's why habits are so hard to change, especially if you've been doing them for a lifetime. So kind of just to wrap up, what advice would you give to women who are experiencing any resistance or fear around the changes associated with going through menopause?
Sally (43:46.03)
Mmm.
Sally (44:07.662)
Mmm, yeah. Well, fear is a really huge thing to try and break down and overcome, right? I think one of the biggest pieces of advice I would give is start, don't aim for huge changes to start, you know, because I think when you feel fearful or anxious about something, you feel like you've got a huge mountain to climb.
in order to feel better, right? And actually, like we've kind of been saying throughout, it's feeling the feeling itself is a huge step towards changing anything, right? So that's, I think that's what I would say. I would say...
Holly Lamb (44:56.111)
Hmm.
Sally (45:01.262)
As well as being afraid or feeling any kind of fear about the change, being aware of feeling fear about the fear, right? And like not being afraid of being with that. And it's very uncomfortable. So kind of building that capacity to be with the fear and discomfort. I think that's number one. And then number two would be,
Holly Lamb (45:12.591)
Yeah.
Sally (45:31.63)
tiny steps, like, you know, what's...
Holly Lamb (45:33.135)
Hmm.
Sally (45:37.422)
what's one thing that I can do this week that might look like self -care for me? Or, yeah, how can I shift the five minutes before bed tonight? Rather than trying to wildly change your routines or practices overnight, I think it's the small, sustainable steps of change that really matter.
Holly Lamb (45:44.975)
Mm.
Holly Lamb (45:53.167)
Mm.
Holly Lamb (46:06.543)
Yeah, I completely agree. That's what I tell my clients. If you can do 1 % better than yesterday, then you're winning, which is great. Amazing. Thanks so much, Sally. That's been so insightful. We could sit here chatting all day, I think. Where can people find you and how can they work with you if you want to share a little bit about that?
Sally (46:12.59)
Yeah, yeah.
Sally (46:20.814)
Absolutely, yeah.
Sally (46:30.83)
Yeah, so my website is WellnesswithSally .com. I am on Instagram as Drdr .Sally .Ecclston. So those two ways are probably the best ways to connect with me. You can work with me online or in person.
I am mainly running in -person events and classes in the high peak area of Derbyshire at the moment. So I've got in -person yoga and movement classes and in -person therapy as well. Lots of different ways to also work with me online. So I've got an on -demand monthly membership. I've got online courses. I've actually got an online course with...
focus on women's health that teaches you all about the different phases of your cycle and how to adapt practices accordingly. And I offer online therapy as well. So yeah, feel free to get in touch if any of this is spoken to you or if you would like some support.
Holly Lamb (47:48.079)
I'll pop that all in the show notes as well so everyone can connect with you. Thanks so much for joining me, Sally. It's been fantastic.
Sally (47:56.238)
Oh, thank you, Holly, for having me. It's been a pleasure. Thank you.
Holly Lamb (47:58.895)
Thank you. Thanks everybody. I'll see you next week for next week's episode.