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The podcast for high-level leaders carrying the invisible weight of the world.
If you’re a founder, executive, or high-ranking leader, you already know this truth: the higher you rise, the fewer people you can safely talk to.
Lonely at the Top is a sanctuary in the storm—a space where the emotional cost of leadership is named, and where relief, clarity, and grounded support are always on the table.
Hosted by Soul Medic and former psychotherapist Rachel Alexandria, this podcast dives into the unspoken realities of high-level decision-making: the pressure, the isolation, the doubt, and the fatigue. Each episode offers insight, emotional tools, and conversations with seasoned leaders who’ve learned to navigate the weight of responsibility without losing themselves.
[00:00:00] Tonya Kubo: Pretty much every practice I have now on what clients I take and what clients I don't take is all based on these stories,
[00:00:06] Rachel Alexandria: Okay
[00:00:07] Tonya Kubo: cause that is one where it's like, okay, if you want my advice and you don't take it, and everything I tell you will happen happens, I may just let you deal with those consequences.
[00:00:18] so in this case, it led to me getting doxxed. in the span of 48 hours I had pictures of my children's school posted online, with the bell schedule and the statement that pick up and drop off are at these times. If you wanna talk to her yourself, that's where you can go
[00:00:39] Rachel Alexandria: Welcome to Lonely at the Top, a podcast for high-level leaders carrying the invisible weight of the world. Because you know the higher you rise, the fewer people you can safely talk to. Here we welcome founders, executives, and decision-makers who feel the isolation and pressure that comes with power.[00:01:00]
[00:01:00] Lonely at the Top is your sanctuary in the storm, and I'm your host, executive coach and former psychotherapist Rachel Alexandria. Today on the podcast, we have Tonya Kubo. She's an online community strategist and host of the Find Your Freaks podcast. With 19 years spent building, breaking, and fixing online communities...
[00:01:25] Oh, we're gonna get into it. A self-described internet dinosaur, she's watched what leading a community actually costs the people running it: the isolation, the invisible labor, the gap between the connection you create for others and the connection you have time to receive yourself. Tonya, welcome on the show.
[00:01:49] Tonya Kubo: Thank you so much for having me, Rayell. This is so fun
[00:01:54] Rachel Alexandria: Yay. So I always like to tell people how I know the guests, 'cause sometimes [00:02:00] I know them very well, they're a client or something, and sometimes it's like we've barely met. Tonya and I have known each other for three years? Yeah. Yeah. And we met through the fabulous Gwen Bortner, yes?
[00:02:15] Tonya Kubo: Yes. Yes, and Gwen's been on the show, right?
[00:02:17] Rachel Alexandria: Yeah, Gwen's been on this show and so tell a little bit about how you and Gwen are connected
[00:02:24] Tonya Kubo: Yeah, so I spent four years as Gwen's fractional CMO and COO, so We called me the moo, because it was chief marketing and operations officer, and I have an ad background, so let me use cow emojis, which was a total blast. Gwen, I actually met Gwen, 'cause Gwen lived in my town. I mean, how unusual is that, right?
[00:02:46] To work online and have people who live in the same town as you. But I met her shortly after I had my oldest. So I knew her for years, but we were in entirely different paths, and then it was in 2022 [00:03:00] where she reached out and said, "I've got this weird thing, and actually you're the person who I thought could help."
[00:03:06] And we got together, and at that time she thought she needed an executive assistant. She was burning through executive assistants, constantly dissatisfied, and so she said, I know that you're not an executive assistant, but I kinda feel like with your background you could come in and you could actually tell me what I really need."
[00:03:24] Rachel Alexandria: whip this into shape
[00:03:25] Tonya Kubo: Right. Well, and it was very clear. I was like, "You don't need somebody to run your calendar. You're perfectly capable." Capable and also particular. She had really strong systems that worked, and it was, like, more work for somebody else to come in and try to establish those systems or improve upon them than it was for her to just keep running them.
[00:03:42] So I shifted to the marketing and operations role and became what she would call a her for her. And then just a week ago as we're recording this, I acquired a big portion of her business, and so now she's off doing her own thing, and I get to take care of the most [00:04:00] incredible clients you have ever had the opportunity to meet.
[00:04:05] Rachel Alexandria: It's amazing how this kind of stuff happens and that relationships really are the way to build any kind of success in the world, honestly. Okay, so 19 years in community maintaining, building, breaking, and fixing. Can you take us back to where that started and tell us about that?
[00:04:28] Tonya Kubo: Well, it started earlier, as it does. 'Cause I always say 19 years because that's when I first started getting paid for it. But, you know, I graduated high school in '95, got my very first computer to go off to college. It was a 486, back when we thought
[00:04:45] Rachel Alexandria: all right.
[00:04:46] Tonya Kubo: the most powerful computer you would ever need, and then Pentium came out and blew everybody's minds.
[00:04:51] But, so I grew up with LISTSERVs and message boards and forums and, participating in those as a student, but also [00:05:00] just as a person. And then, my background I was trained as a journalist in college, so I had a minor in public relations, but I went straight into the newsroom.
[00:05:10] And I worked my way up very quickly to newsroom management. And at that time, when I joined the newspaper, their online newspaper was just the PDF version of the regular newspaper. And I got to lead the team that actually created an interactive website. And so that was back in the early 2000s, and we didn't know what we didn't know.
[00:05:32] And so there was this cool thing called a comments section feature, and we just turned all the features on with no governance because there's a
[00:05:42] Rachel Alexandria: People are to be trusted. People are so kind. We should just let them comment.
[00:05:48] Tonya Kubo: And very quickly discovered the seedy underbelly of what happens when people have a perception of anonymity, right?
[00:05:56] people feel so free to say things they would never say [00:06:00] face to face
[00:06:01] or in person
[00:06:02] Rachel Alexandria: being a, not a graffiti artist, but like a street vandal essentially
[00:06:08] Tonya Kubo: Exactly. And, in management people had two viewpoints. There were the people who were like, "Lock it all down. You know what? We don't have time, energy, or manpower to manage this. We don't owe people a platform for, slinging mud at each other or slinging mud at us." And then there was the other, freedom of the press, freedom of speech side that was like, who are we to be censors?
[00:06:33] We just need to teach people to behave better." And I just got put in charge of that let's teach people how to behave better. And what I realized at that point, so now we're really about tw- 2005, but I realized very quickly that my role was to sit between our readership and our management. And so in one way, I'm an advocate for the reader to management decisions, but [00:07:00] I also have to be the public face of management decisions that readers may or may not like
[00:07:06] And, I was a whopping 27.
[00:07:10] It's a lot of power for a 27-year-old. But, I learned so much, and then that took us to MySpace. We started building a really large platform on MySpace. Yeah, back in the day. I know. And then that's when I understood how the wider ecosystem of online communities, because of course, there were online community norms going all the way back to the old school LISTSERVs.
[00:07:39] The CD underbelly did not start with newspapers. That was back with 4chan and all those other things that most people today haven't heard of. But seeing that get married with our readership ecosystem on the same platform was really interesting to me because what it helped me to do is see what was working in other spaces that could be applied, [00:08:00] but also what we were doing that was working that wasn't in place in other established online communities.
[00:08:08] And so just then, and, it was really self-preservation. It's like, okay, at some point I'm not gonna be the only person doing this. So just writing down sort of some, do's and don'ts, just non-negotiables. This is where we draw the line. The line's fuzzy, but this is where we draw the line in what we s- shut down and what we promote.
[00:08:28] And that rolled in to doing it for clients and initially I started with a couple of authors. Then I transferred over to public relations for a university that was brand new. It was a large university. And they had no social media presence, so I started building their social media from the ground up. And I took all those community management principles I had been learning and practicing, and got to practice them on a much larger scale.
[00:08:55] So we started with Facebook, and then, Twitter hadn't existed yet, so [00:09:00] Twitter came online, and then Instagram came online, and all these platforms you've never heard of now because they were, like, such a flash in the pan came online and we just applied them and I learned more through my mistakes than I ever did through my successes.
[00:09:15] But I had some good successes that then validated oh yeah, that was a really good lesson to learn from that mistake
[00:09:21] Rachel Alexandria: Oh my gosh. Okay, well so now I wanna ask what was one of these infamous mistakes and the amazing lesson that you learned?
[00:09:30] Tonya Kubo: Okay, biggest mistake there's been quite a few of them. So I would say the biggest mistake had to do with knee-jerk censorship. So first time, I wanna like, be, like, really direct and be like, "It wasn't my mistake." But ultimately, as when you're the community manager, you're the face.
[00:09:49] It doesn't matter who made the decision. It doesn't matter who did it. Everybody is gonna think it's you, and you have to be willing to own it. And so early on again, the university was [00:10:00] small. We're talking like 1,400 students
[00:10:03] Rachel Alexandria: Oh, wow
[00:10:04] Tonya Kubo: the time that I was there. So I came in with the first freshman class.
[00:10:08] They'd had grad student classes before and some transfer students, but I came in with that first freshman class, and we just had a, we had a school paper, and of course, when you're starting a university everybody's friends with upper administration, right? Because the administration had such a personal relationship when the student body was small, but it was just starting to get bigger.
[00:10:28] Think that incoming class was like 900. So we got a Republican, a conservative publication that came online, and those students really took freedom of the press, questioning authority, questioning status quo seriously, where the other publication were people who, quite honestly, were gonna be using upper administration as references for their first jobs out of college.
[00:10:54] So things started getting published that were critical of the university leaders, [00:11:00] critical of the university establishment, and my external relations department did not know how to handle that. And so it's the classic thing, right, where I'm a peon. That's all I am. I'm the person who's punching buttons here and there.
[00:11:14] And so my boss comes in 'cause she's just gotten yelled at about "How can you let the students do that?" And so she comes to me, "How can you let the students post that on Facebook?" And I'm like, "Well, it's their Facebook. They get to post whatever they want." "You have to take it down." And we would go around, and I'd be like, "If I take that down, it's gonna get ugly 'cause now we're censors, and now why do we let this group post this publicly on our wall but we don't let this group post it?"
[00:11:41] And I'm walking through, kind of the ifs, ands, or buts, and it's "Well, if you don't do it, I will." And I was like, "Okay, well, the last thing I'm gonna let you do is come in under my login and do my, and do things." Like, no, no, no, not, not allowing that, right? I was like, "Fine, I'll do it. But just know there's gonna be consequences."
[00:11:57] And it blew up big, and [00:12:00] then because I genuinely have OCD, it's part of why community management and social media work really well for me, because there's constant novelty, and I hold a lot in my head, I could not let it go that whole day. So I'm, like, replying to people at 11 o'clock at night, which I should not have been doing because I should have just closed everything up and let my bosses and their bosses deal with the- ramifications.
[00:12:25] Rachel Alexandria: yeah
[00:12:25] Tonya Kubo: But it became a very personal attack towards me as an individual, and I didn't know how to shut that down. And so, at one point it was like, "Well, I'm gonna report you to the university office of the president because you're not allowed to do this, and this." And I was like, "You think I'd do anything without somebody signing off on it?" And they're like, "Well, I sincerely doubt you have upper administration on the line at 10 o'clock at night." And that's when I went, "I have no business having this conversation at 10 o'clock at night," [00:13:00] because I did have upper administration on the line at 10 o'clock at night, but they didn't need to know that.
[00:13:06] They shouldn't know that. And so I had, I had to back away. is not in my nature to just go silent or to shut down a conversation. I think that's something people don't realize is in an online space when there's a back and forth conversation, you shut it down, it's no different than if you're in the middle of a face-to-face conversation, you get up and you leave the room.
[00:13:26] It is very frustrating for the other person, and it can cause them to act out even more.
[00:13:32] But you also have to understand when you can't reason with an individual, when they're entrenched in their position, and you're not gonna change their mind, and either they're not gonna change yours or simply because the way that, bosses and employee relationships work, it doesn't matter if they change yours, you're still gonna do what you're gonna do.
[00:13:54] You've gotta be able to remove yourself from the situation. So that was my first lesson in I have to [00:14:00] parent myself here, because nobody is gonna pull me back. I am always going to be the most informed on online community dynamics, the most informed on this population, 'cause I'm always gonna be the closest to these people where decision-makers just go layers upon layers up, and they don't know these individuals as well as I would know these individuals.
[00:14:23] And that means I have to have the self-restraint, 'cause nobody's gonna impose the restraint on me. But that was a hard lesson to learn, and I'll be honest, I had to learn it about four or five times before I really got it, 'cause I'm stubborn.
[00:14:37] Rachel Alexandria: Yeah, a lot of leaders are, right? Wow, yeah. I mean, it reminds me I used to be much more public-facing on social media, especially Facebook 'cause, you and I, we are some of the OGs of the internet, I think is how we could say it feels weird to say but yeah, I was on Facebook in the early [00:15:00] days posting a lot of, takes on psychology and whatever, to the point where there was some sort of community, I guess, that I had cultivated.
[00:15:10] It wasn't like in a ... Well, I did have a private group, but this was publicly, where if something bad would happen in the world and I hadn't commented, I'd actually get called out. I did have that a couple times. I'm like, "I am also living a life. I am not a, I am not a news organization."
[00:15:26] Tonya Kubo: Right
[00:15:27] Rachel Alexandria: But I had an argument with somebody.
[00:15:29] I posted something, I'm pretty politically progressive, and she came on and was just fighting with me about kind of the subject matter, but sort of not, and we just were fundamentally opposed, and we're going back and forth, and back and forth, and I'm, like, all wound up, and I was like, " Okay, I need to take a step back," and I, 'cause, I used to be very much that meme, "Somebody's wrong on the internet, so I have to fix it," right?
[00:15:54] No, that's never gonna happen. So I finally was like, "Hey, I don't [00:16:00] think you're gonna change my mind, and I'm pretty sure I'm not gonna change yours, so what are we doing here? Is it are we actually getting anywhere?" And she said, "Oh, I just am avoiding doing my taxes right now." And I suddenly went, "Oh. For her, this is entertainment. For me, this has felt like a battle, and we should not be having this conversation." So I feel that, and I didn't do it for a job. You were caught in that hard place between your management and being the visible authority in the room with the community.
[00:16:39] Tonya Kubo: Yeah. And I love though that you brought that up, right? Because how long did it take us societally speaking to recognize that so much of the vitriol in the online spaces were a source of entertainment for a pretty large segment of the population? I mean, there's a large percentage of [00:17:00] people who love riling people up, and they love doing it online because they have no physical threat or danger
[00:17:09] Rachel Alexandria: yeah. Yeah
[00:17:10] Tonya Kubo: I know it took me a long time to figure that out
[00:17:14] Rachel Alexandria: I made a face when you were saying it because I'm like, "Do I even know that now?" I know that some people, but when you say a lot I'm like, "Oh, dang. Is it a lot?" That's that feels very sad, but, as a very compassionate empath, like that is not something that I enjoy, and so I almost don't understand it, and I think maybe there's people listening who either feel like, "Of course, it's like a sport," and other people who feel like, "Ugh, why would anyone like this?"
[00:17:46] Tonya Kubo: Well, and I think, the, for the empath, online spaces are landmines because there are some conversations that can be... So I'll use one, [00:18:00] and I'll be very brief about it, right? But okay, so when Queen Elizabeth died, so I live in the US. I live in California. There's this romantic- romanticizing that we have of the monarchy, right?
[00:18:12] So Queen Elizabeth dies, and people are, like, up at 3:00 AM to watch the funeral services and all of that. But there's this whole segment of the population, like globally, who were raised and lived in places that were colonized by England that have an entirely different association with the monarchy.
[00:18:35] Rachel Alexandria: Yeah
[00:18:36] Tonya Kubo: And so people are going to these conversations and these live streams thinking, "I'm gonna be with a bunch of, people who love God and country and wanna be princesses from afar," and I'm feeling attacked by people, from various areas of Europe and Asia that have suffered at the hands of colonialism and not being prepared for that, right?[00:19:00]
[00:19:00] And the empath having... I have one friend in particular highly empathic, and having to hold the space between the two, right? Go, "I can have lived my entire life fantasizing about this world and also recognize that a lot of harm was done, and just because I fantasize about this world doesn't make me a bad person.
[00:19:25] But also, I don't get to necessarily cloister myself from evidence of those things happening." And that, every empath I know really struggles with the online space for those reasons, 'cause you just never know when you're gonna accidentally end up in a place you don't wanna be.
[00:19:45] Rachel Alexandria: Yeah. Yeah. Like that the footage of that landslide and flooding in Nepal, right?
[00:19:54] Tonya Kubo: Mm-hmm.
[00:19:54] Rachel Alexandria: I saw video bef- as it just was hitting the new- not even the [00:20:00] news, it was just hitting the internet, and I thought I was going to watch floodwaters rise like this, and then I saw... And you could see tiny people running, and I saw instead an enormous impossible wave crest over a four-story building and the camera almost get knocked out, and that was...
[00:20:22] Yeah. So being an empath, which is a small percentage of the population. A lot of people are empathic, meaning they feel, their mirror neurons are firing very actively and they feel in kind with other people. But some of us actually are really embodying other people's feelings, and that kind of wrecked me for a day.
[00:20:43] I was like, "I did not realize I was about to watch people violently die." Every person I just saw on that screen, even though they were tiny dots, they are all dead
[00:20:54] Tonya Kubo: Mm-hmm.
[00:20:56] Rachel Alexandria: So, Yeah, I know how hard it is [00:21:00] for people who are empathic to sit with the onslaught of humanity, really, and all of the good and the bad.
[00:21:09] So where, where do you sit on that? Do you identify as an empath?
[00:21:13] Tonya Kubo: I do not. I don't know, it's like, is it nurture or is it nature? Is it the fact that I was in journalism? Although the person I just told you the story of, she was in the newsroom with me and, September 11th
[00:21:26] Rachel Alexandria: Oof. Yeah. Yeah
[00:21:26] Tonya Kubo: was horrific for her. And honestly, it was horrific for me to have to watch how hard that was, 'cause she may as well have been there.
[00:21:36] She really did. And I didn't understand that back then, 'cause I was so young. She's about 10 years older than me. But now looking back, I think of how grateful I am we didn't have social media like we do now back then. And 'cause for me, there was such a compartmentalization between the job and me as a person.
[00:21:55] I am only now really starting to connect my head and my [00:22:00] heart. My head and my heart have been disconnected for so long. And so, what I find in my place is that it hits me afterward So some people describe the adrenaline hangover. You know, I'm great in a crisis and I am very level-headed and I'm Teflon.
[00:22:20] But then at the end of it, right, You know, I've taken care of everybody else, I've managed it all, and then, you know, it's like 2:00 AM and I'm wired and tired. I can't sleep. I had the opportunity, the privilege, but also the hardship of managing a pretty significant crisis through social media when I was back doing the university work full-time.
[00:22:44] And I just remember it was about a two-week onslaught, not sleeping, all of that. And at the end of it just I mean, it probably took me a month and a half, if not two months, to emotionally recover from all that I was carrying for everybody else in that [00:23:00] time.
[00:23:00] Rachel Alexandria: Yeah
[00:23:01] Tonya Kubo: you know, we had students who were injured and we had, outsiders with their opinions of it all and how it was handled.
[00:23:08] We had media fairly asking questions. We have families that are, "Is my child safe?" even though my child was far from it. Like all of that. And then of course, like any large organization, there is that segment of the group that is like really reputationally protective.
[00:23:25] And back to, when you are in that community management space, like you're the human side of it.
[00:23:33] You're like, "Yes, I understand we've got to protect our reputation, and these are real live people we're talking about." Okay? They're not numbers. They're not dollar signs. Not that anybody was saying that, but having to say, "You know what? They have every right to ask that question. They have every right to say that online."
[00:23:49] Yeah, it's uncomfortable for us, and you know what? Yeah, it's reputationally damaging and it's our job to manage that. But just because it makes our job harder doesn't mean they don't have every right to say it and [00:24:00] do it.
[00:24:01] But it's hard. It is. And I think, it's a high burnout field. People don't talk about it as such,
[00:24:08] Rachel Alexandria: Yeah
[00:24:08] Tonya Kubo: but that social media management for large brands and community management are two areas where the emotional strain does get to be too much over time
[00:24:20] Rachel Alexandria: That makes sense. I mean, you're psychically, and I would argue energetically, dealing with a huge onslaught of other people's feelings and energetic
[00:24:32] vibes. So I would imagine that you would have to find a way to really protect yourself. Yeah, I mean, the people who are at the top, like the high-level decision makers, there's a way in which they're sometimes insulated, right?
[00:24:48] Because there's people that have to ... Like, how many shows do we see where somebody's like, "Oh, and..." Well, I was like, for example, I was just watching The Devil Wears Prada, [00:25:00] 'cause I hadn't watched it in years, and for those who, I probably am assuming most people have seen it the woman who's the second assistant, the peon, is being pulled up to replace the woman above her who's been working her butt off and coveting this, plum assignment for a long time.
[00:25:18] And the woman in charge, Miranda Priestly, just says, "No, it's gonna be you instead of her," because she made one error when she was really sick.
[00:25:27] Tonya Kubo: I was gonna say, and she was like at death's door sick
[00:25:29] Rachel Alexandria: yeah and by the way, you should tell her. So the people at the top getting insulated because with power they can choose to do that, or sometimes it's just operationally appropriate.
[00:25:41] You can't be the person spending your whole day fielding the phone calls, right? So yeah, it makes sense that the community managers are the ones who are in primary contact. You're the reachable leader. And what do you do [00:26:00] now to better insulate yourself
[00:26:03] Tonya Kubo: Yeah. so I had a situation, 'cause you had mentioned how you used to be much more publicly online than you are now. So I had a situation that got really ugly really fast. Similar, it was, working for a client, and somebody had posted a comment that they were worried...
[00:26:21] They had interviewed someone. They were worried that the person they interviewed, it would be very hurtful to them, and they wanted it taken down. I was like, "This, with this subject matter, given what I know, given my experience, this is gonna blow up in your face if we do this." And it was like, absolutely has to be done.
[00:26:35] And I was like, "No," and I was trying to state my case, and they just went in and they deleted it, 'cause, It's their property. They have access to that. Which of course, everything that I thought would happen, happened. And then they're like, "Okay, well, you have to deal with it." And it led... Yeah, it's always fun, right? And it led
[00:26:54] Rachel Alexandria: I didn't listen to you and now I created the mess, now you go handle it
[00:26:58] Tonya Kubo: Pretty much every practice I have now [00:27:00] on what clients I take and what clients I don't take is all based on these stories,
[00:27:04] Rachel Alexandria: Okay
[00:27:06] Tonya Kubo: It's like, 'cause that is one where it's like, okay, if you want my advice and you don't take it, and everything I tell you will happen happens, I may just let you deal with those consequences.
[00:27:18] Rachel Alexandria: I am not your janitor. Yeah
[00:27:20] Tonya Kubo: so in this case, it led to me getting doxxed. Like in the span of 48 hours I had pictures of my children's school online, posted online, with the bell schedule and the statement that pick up and drop off are at these times. If you wanna talk to her yourself, that's where you can go
[00:27:45] Rachel Alexandria: Wow.
[00:27:46] Tonya Kubo: And
[00:27:47] Rachel Alexandria: Because an interview got deleted for someone you work
[00:27:51] Tonya Kubo: a comment on an interview got deleted.
[00:27:54] Rachel Alexandria: Oh, for Pete's sake
[00:27:55] Tonya Kubo: Yeah, a comment. Okay, and this is none of this is happening in my state, by the way. [00:28:00] And the only reason I know this is happening is because somebody I was in a nonprofit with was a follower of this other person's page, and was like, "What happened between you and so?" And I'm like, "What do you mean, what happened between me and so?"
[00:28:14] And she started sending me screenshots. And I was like, "Oh my gosh." And then I was like, "Oh, it's that person
[00:28:21] And then I'm like, and in this moment it's like she goes like, "They're talking about, calling your employer, getting you fired. They're, like, looking at all the dirt that they can dig."
[00:28:31] And I remember sitting on my back porch, 'cause I was home alone at the time, and just freaking out, right? cause it's like I knew about doxing, I knew what was happening, but it never occurred to me that little old me doing little old low-stake stuff was ever gonna be part of this. And I was always very bold online because I just never thought what I did was high enough stakes to put my family in danger.
[00:28:55] By the time my husband came home, I was crying, and he was like, "What is going [00:29:00] on?" And I remember looking him in the eyes and I just said, "I just need you to tell me whether or not this is true, that no matter what happens, no matter what anybody says, what anybody does, I am still your wife, you still love me, and I am still a good mom to our girls."
[00:29:17] And he was like, "Okay, crazy lady. Yes, you're right." Right? 'Cause he's like, "What is this?" And I told him what happened, and I was like, "And I don't know what to do about this." 'Cause in that moment it's like, okay, do I quit? Do I pull back of being online entirely? Do, do I quit my job before I get fired?
[00:29:33] I mean, because I'm in that space where I'm like, maybe I will get fired over this. There was no reason for me to get fired over
[00:29:37] that. But,
[00:29:39] but you're in that panic mode and he just said, "You know what? F 'em." And I was like, "Wait, what?"
[00:29:47] Rachel Alexandria: Yeah
[00:29:48] Tonya Kubo: like, "Seriously." He's like, "Everything they're doing is to scare you."
[00:29:52] Like, "You've got two choices." Yes. He goes, "You wanna totally close up shop and not live an online life anymore, go ahead and do that." He's like, "You [00:30:00] wanna double down and put everything in public and just dare them to do anything about it, you do that, too." And I was like, "Okay." And so since then, I have been chronically, annoyingly online.
[00:30:14] Very public. To the point that my poor mother-in-law thinks I put everything. I was like, "Oh, if you knew the things I didn't put online." But she's just "Don't tell Tonya this. I don't want her to put it on social media." Right? I was like, "Mom, she is not gonna put your knee replacement on social media, I promise you."
[00:30:30] Rachel Alexandria: Well, now you just did.
[00:30:33] Tonya Kubo: Yeah. So, redacted. Edit, please. But, it's like, I mean, there is that perception, but what we now call that is inoculation, right? And it is... I didn't know it at the time, but that is something that you can do. It's like, okay, if I am really that worried that people are gonna use things against me, then what I need to start doing is putting things out there so that when somebody tries to do something against me, they, everybody can be like, "Eh, [00:31:00] we already knew that.
[00:31:01] Rachel Alexandria: Yeah. Yeah, interesting.
[00:31:03] Tonya Kubo: Right?
[00:31:04] and I can't recommend that for everybody, by the way.
[00:31:07] Rachel Alexandria: new...
[00:31:08] Speaker 2: Hey, quick pause. If you've been listening to Lonely at the Top and something's landed, a story, a line, a moment that hit different, I wanna hear about it. Feedback shapes where my show goes, and I read every message. If what you're carrying right now is bigger than a comment, if there's a pattern that you're ready to get out of, a decision that feels like you're stuck in it, or a version of yourself you're ready to leave behind, I'm opening a limited number of discounted magic sessions for listeners this month.
[00:31:38] One session, real movement. The link is in the show notes. Come find out what's actually possible when someone sees to the heart of what's going on and can help you get out. That's it. Back to the episode
[00:31:54] Rachel Alexandria: What about for the kids, though? do you share about them a lot publicly? Like, how [00:32:00] does that sit with them?
[00:32:00] Tonya Kubo: Oh, and that is something that, it's like if we knew what we know now 20 years ago
[00:32:07] Rachel Alexandria: Yeah
[00:32:08] Tonya Kubo: would've made a lot of different decisions. But yeah, that was one thing. Now my husband, he has a very small network, right? So he's putting everything on Facebook all the time, and I'm, I would be the one who'd be like I'm not comfortable with, that picture necessarily being out there, and you don't know what people could do."
[00:32:23] And then, I was the crazy paranoid person. But now my older daughter is very protective. It's funny, she's very protective of what she calls her digital footprint. She's highly sensitive to the idea of people taking your likeness and your image and manipulating it with AI.
[00:32:39] all this time, I've never hidden what I post, what I do.
[00:32:43] Anytime I think things are sensitive, my girls are both neurodivergent when I have wanted to talk about that, talk about, like, how I handle IEP meetings, how I do the self-care side of IEP meetings, I have talked to her and she's been like, "Yeah, Mom, if that helps other kids, other parents, you do that."
[00:32:59] But then [00:33:00] one day, she was a sophomore in high school, and
[00:33:02] They were googling themselves in class. It was an assignment. And somebody googled me. I think she googled me, and it's just page after page of pictures of her and her sister as they're growing up, and she in that moment was fully confronted with what all those yeses meant.
[00:33:22] Now, in hindsight, just like I didn't know what I didn't know, I can sit there and say, "Well, I got her consent." She didn't know what she was consenting to. None of us knew how AI would be used now. So you know, now I am much more protective. At the same time, she and I are both honest.
[00:33:40] It's like, well, you can't unring a bell.
[00:33:43] Rachel Alexandria: Yeah
[00:33:44] Tonya Kubo: younger, is much more protective, so there's a lot less of her online. I'm really grateful that we have privacy settings that are, like, where you can lock down one thing without locking down your whole page. But nothing is [00:34:00] perfect.
[00:34:00] Things are found. We're constantly having those conversations. I'm always saying "I didn't know what I didn't know, but what would you at 17 now wish I had done at 10? Because this can help me help other people make better decisions." But yeah, so they are out there a lot. People know a lot about them, and my husband and I now have a lot of conversations about what that means.
[00:34:22] What have we set them up for, good and bad?
[00:34:27] Rachel Alexandria: Yeah, this is the hard part about being visible, right? And there were always hard parts. Even before the internet, there were ways in which, people could come to your house in the village, right? And stand there with their torches. And now even though we are much more vastly distributed and there's a global, like you could be anywhere in the world very easily, you can also be found very easily.
[00:34:53] So it's almost like the, the experience of the village and the pitchforks and the torches [00:35:00] doesn't change, so yeah, I really appreciate you sharing with us just this is part of the cost, right? of being in leadership. You were
[00:35:11] Tonya Kubo: just say a couple of things.
[00:35:13] So
[00:35:14] here's what I hope. I mean, 'cause it's funny is some people think of me as like a social media person who is anti-social media, and, it's not that I am. But I think it's important to recognize the cost to ourselves, but also for those of us who are leaders to fully appreciate what we're asking of our people when we ask them to do certain things online, whatever those things are.
[00:35:38] You may think, "Oh, all I'm doing is asking this person to MC my live virtual event."
[00:35:44] But by having them do that, they are putting their face and their likeness out there, and it can be manipulated. Doesn't mean it will be. I'm not saying you have to do anything different, but I do think there needs to be a level of sensitivity and appreciation [00:36:00] of the cost on both sides, not just the cost that we personally incur, but the cost that we ask other people to incur on our behalf
[00:36:07] Rachel Alexandria: I totally agree. And, there's ways in which me probably being overly sensitive or, I don't know, sensitive to what I ask of others has probably kept my business smaller over 20 years because
[00:36:24] I have been so not wanting to put any burden on people who work with me that I wouldn't... For example, I've led family constellations for 16 years.
[00:36:40] I have taken pictures twice, and one of them was, just to, like I actually staged one and I probably should do it again. But I even when we're not in the work, we just don't take pictures because I didn't wanna put that burden on people who come. But the more that I've learned to at least [00:37:00] ask and make it very easy to say no to me,
[00:37:03] The more I find that, yeah, about half the time people are happy to help, happy to put their face on something.
[00:37:10] So yeah I agree that there is a burden and it's also that those of us who are overly sensitive to, in any way, burdening others will kind of shoot ourselves in the foot.
[00:37:22] Tonya Kubo: Yeah
[00:37:24] Rachel Alexandria: And I think my concern about what could happen the more public I am has also been, in the past, too much of a limiter. Because I'm a little bit of a Cassandra, like I feel like I see stuff before it's gonna happen not in a psychic way, but just in a logical, strategic way,
[00:37:46] There's very little that I won't share about my inner process,
[00:37:50] But I have really stopped sharing as much about my outer process, my outer experience. You're not gonna find ... This [00:38:00] is not a challenge, listeners , but as far as I know, you're not gonna find any kind of photos that I have posted that convey my location while I'm there, you know?
[00:38:12] Or, like places that I live or anything like that. I mean, I'm sure they're findable because it's the internet, and if somebody wants to be a PI about it, I- it's not like I'm ... It's not like it's that hard.
[00:38:22] But yeah, I have, I used to just be like, "I'm here," selfie, click, you know, la, la, la, la, la, la, la. And honestly, I'm probably just fortunate that no one's ever taken advantage of that in my 20 years of being online.
[00:38:38] But also, like you, or by even less than you, I have been less probably visible to a great swath of people. And I've been confronting myself that if I want to be reaching more people with the work that I do and how I can help them, that is a cost I need to be willing to pay,
[00:38:58] I don't have to take pictures of where I [00:39:00] am and,
[00:39:00] you know, Disclose my location but that I have to be willing to allow more people who I don't know, who may or may not be healthy to, to
[00:39:10] I have to be in a bigger public square, which just comes with a bigger risk
[00:39:13] Tonya Kubo: Yeah, and really, I mean, what we're talking about are parasocial relationships,
[00:39:18] They can be positive and they can be negative. And I think we all have to do a cost-benefit analysis for ourselves, right? If I didn't have a husband and kids, part of me wants to say I'd be more public, but part of me thinks I wouldn't.
[00:39:35] 'Cause like, if I was living all by myself I don't
[00:39:37] Rachel Alexandria: yeah, scarier.
[00:39:39] Tonya Kubo: right? And it's hard to say what you would do in an experience that you don't have, right? 'Cause it... Or I should say it's very easy to be all like, "I would be so brave and
[00:39:48] Rachel Alexandria: to say, but
[00:39:50] Tonya Kubo: right? But it's like I don't know how I would be different.
[00:39:53] I know that for me, being such a community builder at heart, where I always lean [00:40:00] into is the fact that I am relatively comfortable with risk, and I am highly comfortable going first to show people what's safe and not safe to do. And that's why I'm so open. I build everything out loud and in public.
[00:40:15] I'm very open about my failures. I'm open about my successes. But even then, I'm always like I sort of feel like that one was luck. That wasn't design. But hey we'll take the win where we can get it," right? So that other people can start to go, that's something I can see myself doing," or, "Ooh, ooh, I'm...
[00:40:33] Now that I've seen how that plays out, I don't want any part of that."
[00:40:36] Rachel Alexandria: I think that's wise, and I would agree. For those listening who, are in leadership or moving into leadership I think one of my big assets, and probably sounds like yours too, is that I don't keep things back out of shame. And because I don't do that, because I am not filling a closet of shame with stuff, there's [00:41:00] not things that somebody can find and try to manipulate me with, right?
[00:41:05] Like, And everyone isn't entitled to every single detail about my life,
[00:41:08] but everything that's important and relevant, not like fantasies I had when I was 7 or something like that but you know. And since you and I are in roles of trying to help shape people for the better,
[00:41:25] I think it's so important to be able to say stand on your life and your choices and say there's a quote I remember reading years ago that still sticks with me, and I'm not gonna remember it precisely, - and I don't remember who said it, but they said "Live your life so that it doesn't matter what people say about you, even if it's not true."
[00:41:48] Tonya Kubo: I like that
[00:41:51] Rachel Alexandria: And that one, it's been a, like a, a Zen koan in a way for me. It's not, but it's one that just like It has polished and shaped [00:42:00] some jagged edges in me for a long time, because I used to be very upset when people say things about me that aren't
[00:42:05] true. Criticize me for what's true, and it's, doesn't feel great, but I'm not gonna be mad about it.
[00:42:11] But say shit, say stuff that's untrue... What, why do I care? This is my podcast. I can swear if I
[00:42:15] want.
[00:42:16] Tonya Kubo: just say whatever you want
[00:42:17] Rachel Alexandria: I get to say whatever the hell I want. But say shit that's untrue, and it used to really upset me. And, the older I get and the more I do my inner work, the more it's like, people are free to say whatever they want, because they are, right?
[00:42:32] That's also, sounds like your experience managing communities. To some extent, people are free to say whatever they want. On my socials for me, because me and my business are, kind of one and the same on socials, people don't get to come and say shit on my thing, because I'm like, "Well, that's a troll.
[00:42:50] That's a bot. Nope. I'm not leaving that up for engagement." It's not an interesting commentary. This is just somebody being mean. And I just delete and block very [00:43:00] liberally, 'cause I'm like, "I'm not letting that mildew take hold." But
[00:43:03] Tonya Kubo: I have a friend, she says "It's your cat box. You don't have to let other people throw poop in it."
[00:43:08] Rachel Alexandria: Exactly. Exactly. Or Brené Brown says, I don't ... Like the, the man in the arena quote, right? I will engage with criticism from people who are also in the arena, but not from couch warriors, Okay, so we need to get into, we've kind of been doing it already, but let's get more into your balance sheet of burdens.
[00:43:31] We wanna open the private ledger
[00:43:33] of Tanya. And we would love to know, in addition to what we've already been talking about, what is one cost you've paid for being in leadership?
[00:43:46] Tonya Kubo: I think the biggest cost as a woman, right, is I've lost a lot of friendships.
[00:43:52] We hate for that to be true, but there is still I would say, you know, and I don't mind sharing my age. I'm [00:44:00] 49. And though I'm not at the be- like I know the 60-year-old women out there and the 70-year-old women out there who have been in executive roles definitely had it a lot harder in many ways, and in other ways a lot easier because there were less women.
[00:44:14] But I am somebody who has found that my roughest treatment has come from other women in the workforce, other women in leadership. This unspoken rule that there can be only one, all right? Like, it's pie. Like, success is pie, and you can't let somebody else get the last slice. And that I used to...
[00:44:34] when I was in my 20s I used to say, "Well, I'm young, I'm smart, and I'm highly employable. It doesn't matter." But as I've grown up, I have recognized that kind of attitude leads to a very tiny circle and network as you get older. And the older we get, back to your point that you made early in the episode, the more the [00:45:00] relationships and the network matters.
[00:45:02] And so that's one of the things where I am... And I've been in a very reflective year. I think part of it's just being 49, and you're like, "I'm almost a half century." But, thinking back in the times where that was exactly the right attitude to have, because maybe somebody didn't have my best interests at heart, or times where I could have handled it differently and recognized that they were just projecting the toxicity that they were feeling,
[00:45:30] Rachel Alexandria: Mm-hmm. And we could have had an open conversation that maybe would have helped us both, would have been healing for us both.
[00:45:38] Tonya Kubo: That honestly, when you're in your 20s and 30s, you just think you have more time for that pesky self-growth stuff. And then you wake up one day going, "Oh, well, you have to grow at some point." And the older you are, the harder it can be. So you should have started earlier
[00:45:56] Rachel Alexandria: Stuff I hear from literally every client I've ever [00:46:00] had, whether they were in their 20s or their 60s, they always are like, "Oh, I can't believe I'm age and still dealing with
[00:46:08] whatever." And I'm like, "Yeah, I mean, you are where you are."
[00:46:13] Tonya Kubo: And it's the human condition.
[00:46:15] Rachel Alexandria: Yeah.
[00:46:15] Tonya Kubo: You know, If you want to be better, right, you're always going to notice how much better you could be
[00:46:22] Rachel Alexandria: Yeah, the brain is a discounting mechanism, and it's always looking at the grass on the other side. Mm-hmm. Okay, tell us one invisible asset you didn't realize you had at the time
[00:46:37] Tonya Kubo: My logic. So I have this weird thing, I will say, and I call it the weird thing because my 17-year-old has just noticed she has it, too. Which is I can very objectively see all sides of a situation.
[00:46:52] So I can look at something and be like, "Oh yeah, that's a hot mess, and here is where you've [00:47:00] contributed to the mess.
[00:47:00] Here's where you've contributed to the mess," and be like, you know, "I'm friends with all of you. I totally see why you did what you did. I also see why we're where we're at." And, that, I remember there was a time where I thought it was a weakness 'cause it led to me not being as emotionally affected as others.
[00:47:19] Rachel Alexandria: Oh
[00:47:19] Tonya Kubo: so, like you're in a scenario and everybody's crying, but you're not crying because you can see the pattern of how we all got here, so it's not as surprising for you.
[00:47:28] And also, because you see the pattern for how we've got here, you know with confidence we'll get out of here. This isn't as, dim as it feels.
[00:47:37] So that, I would say, has been, like, the invisible superpower that I have had
[00:47:43] Rachel Alexandria: Interesting. I have that too, but combined with empathy my intense empathness means I am not exempt from the feelings part of it.
[00:47:52] So yeah, I can both understand and also be highly impacted. Although, to be fair, the older I get, I have [00:48:00] been able to create more distance from the intensity of feelings.
[00:48:04] Yeah. I think that's an amazing superpower. I have to ask, are you a Libra?
[00:48:10] Tonya Kubo: I am a Virgo on the cusp of Libra. Good
[00:48:13] Rachel Alexandria: Yes, you are. Ah, of course you are.
[00:48:16] Tonya Kubo: And I'm Libra rising, and I'm a Capricorn moon. I was just on a podcast, and it was on my birthday, and they did a solar return reading for me.
[00:48:26] Rachel Alexandria: Ooh
[00:48:26] Tonya Kubo: So I know all this stuff about me that I didn't know a month ago.
[00:48:29] Rachel Alexandria: Uh-huh. Virgos very, Virgos and Libras, very logical. Libra with that balance. Yeah, this makes a lot of sense. My mom's a Virgo, my husband's a Libra, so I know more about some signs than others because of this.
[00:48:42] Tonya Kubo: They teach me so much about me
[00:48:44] Rachel Alexandria: Probably the people that gave you the reading are probably much better about it.
[00:48:48] But yeah, we can talk about it separately, just comparing anecdotal, 'cause what I know is people more than I know astrology. So tell us one investment you're making now for your [00:49:00] wellbeing or your soul
[00:49:02] Tonya Kubo: Ooh, that's a really good question. so this has been an investment that I've been making for the last year, and I am growing food. So I've converted my front yard into a garden um, where I grow food, and I'm slowly but surely adding some native plants to it. But that is right, right now it's feeding my soul more than it's feeding anybody's belly, 'cause let's just say it's imperfect.
[00:49:26] But,
[00:49:27] Rachel Alexandria: a while
[00:49:27] Tonya Kubo: I'm having a blast. I'm having an absolute blast tinkering in the garden, seeing what grows, what doesn't grow, trying to get the neighborhood cats not to use my raised beds as a cat box
[00:49:37] Rachel Alexandria: yeah.
[00:49:38] Tonya Kubo: But you know, so I had this idea that I would just plant like pretty much 10 to 20 of everything and just see what happens. Let's just say I'm really good at growing basil, and now I'm really good at 22 different things you can do with basil
[00:49:51] Rachel Alexandria: Oh, that's great. basil is currently the only food I'm able to grow but I don't have yard. I mostly have concrete, so I [00:50:00] have
[00:50:00] Tonya Kubo: Oh, okay
[00:50:01] Rachel Alexandria: Yeah, this is just in small pots. Apparently, what is the thing that gets very invasive? Is it mint?
[00:50:08] My mom's a master gardener, so
[00:50:11] Yeah, It's like don't plant mint if you don't want mint everywhere
[00:50:15] Tonya Kubo: Yep. That is very true
[00:50:17] Rachel Alexandria: I bet you there's something you could plant that would make the cats not like to use your beds, but you'll have to, you'll have to reach out to the master gardeners in
[00:50:25] Tonya Kubo: Yes. Yes. I'm on their email list now. I found them at the farmer's market last
[00:50:29] week.
[00:50:30] Rachel Alexandria: nice. They're amazing. Thanks to those master gardeners. Okay, we've got two questions
[00:50:36] left. Yeah. And so the first one is, what do you wish more leaders felt permission to say out loud?
[00:50:46] Tonya Kubo: I wish more leaders... Ooh, this is a good one. I wish more leaders felt permission to say what they don't like about what they do. [00:51:00] Because I think so many of us are good at things, like really good naturally at things that we don't actually enjoy.
[00:51:07] But because society always tends to praise and revere the things that we're good at, it doesn't feel safe to say that we don't like them, and it almost makes us feel like a fraud. And so I just wish that, and, I mean, and this is not a gendered statement, I wish everybody felt more comfortable saying, "You know what? I get that I can. I get that I'm better than most, but I don't like it. And so if somebody else out here likes it better than me, even if they don't do it as well as I do, I'd rather them take the lead here."
[00:51:38] Rachel Alexandria: Yes. I love that. That's a great answer, and one I have not heard before, after almost 40 episodes of this show. I'm gonna probably change these questions up for the next season, ' but yeah, love when I get a fresh one. I'm like, ooh, that's a good one. And it's interesting 'cause, whenever something happens [00:52:00] that you don't do yourself, it's like, oh, do people, I guess people do do that.
[00:52:05] When I don't like stuff, it's very obvious. I'm very clear about not liking it. But you're right, lots of leaders, are trying to please their higher-ups or please their populace or, they just get off on success, and if that's what has been put out as you're succeeding if you're doing this, then they'll do it.
[00:52:25] Yeah, and yeah, I think what a world we would live in if everyone stopped doing the things they don't like and just started doing the things that they do. I actually think it would shake out well. I don't think we, everyone would be a, bikini model and no one would be picking up trash. I actually think all kinds of people like all kinds of things.
[00:52:47] Tonya Kubo: Yeah, I agree. I agree. If we had more freedom to not do the things we don't like, I think we'd also find out how many things we hate other people really love
[00:52:56] Rachel Alexandria: Yeah. I love event planning, man, [00:53:00] and lots of people hate it.
[00:53:01] Tonya Kubo: glad for you.
[00:53:02] Rachel Alexandria: I'm so good at it, and I love it, and honestly, if I could... If somebody... I don't wanna build another business, 'cause building a business takes forever and is super hard, but if anybody just wants an amazing event planner, call me. All right.
[00:53:17] Before we get to our last question, if people are, like we didn't get a ton into all of the things that you're providing, but this is a good time for you to talk about if people are looking for an amazing community manager, should they call you? And what else should they call you or reach out to you for, and how should they do that?
[00:53:38] Tonya Kubo: Yeah. So, if you go to TonyaKubo.com, you can find pretty much everything that I do. And that's a great place to connect. There's a contact form. But really if you're interested in community management and kind of that strategic perspective on it and the good and the bad, I do have a Facebook group if that's your jam, and you can go to Tonya.link/group and you'll land right into [00:54:00] my Facebook group going that route.
[00:54:02] If you love interviews like this one that really dig into what makes people feel like they belong online and off, check out Find Your Freaks, and that's over at findyourfreaks.com. And recently, I acquired a portion of a business where I am now working specifically with female business owners and business leaders just on the decision-making aspect, being better at making those business decisions because you know what?
[00:54:31] There are so many incredible executive coaches out there. You are one of them. There's so many heart-centered service providers out there. But there aren't very many places we can go where we can just focus on that CEO muscle of being a better decision-maker and starting to really take that ownership of our role as a leader in a way that works for us and how we're wired.
[00:54:55] Rachel Alexandria: I love that. Yeah. That's fabulous. I've actually had an episode on [00:55:00] Find Your Freaks, so if people wanna see more of you and me chatting, you should go
[00:55:04] find,
[00:55:04] my episode on the podcast.
[00:55:07] Tonya Kubo: Yes. Well, we should put it in the show notes, and then I will definitely be sharing it because that was a good one
[00:55:13] Rachel Alexandria: Well, I'm s- I think they're all good. Tonya is just such a great person to talk to, and so you should absolutely go check out her show. First I wanna say thank you also because you are a supporter of my podcast.
[00:55:26] Tonya Kubo: Oh, yes. I'm proud to be
[00:55:29] Rachel Alexandria: you buy me a coffee as a monthly support, and if anybody else really enjoys this show, I hope you'll go check out we'll put that in the show notes where the link is, but it's always in the transcript that you can also buy me a coffee if you like these conversations, and then it's kinda like we're sitting here sipping it together.
[00:55:47] Tonya Kubo: Yes, it
[00:55:48] Rachel Alexandria: Okay, so now we have the time machine.
[00:55:52] If you could go back in time, and we've talked about lots of different moments in your career already, but if you could go back in [00:56:00] time, what would you say to yourself earlier in your career?
[00:56:07] Tonya Kubo: I would tell my younger self or my early career self that no decision would actually ever be a deal breaker. That very few things can't be undone. And so to be less conservative and less scared about risky decisions and just go with what feels right in the moment, and it'll work out, and if it doesn't work out, you can always make a different decision later
[00:56:31] Rachel Alexandria: I love that so much. I remember hearing years ago that for entrepreneurs, the biggest predictor of success was your risk tolerance, and I think that's true for leadership too
[00:56:46] Tonya Kubo: I agree
[00:56:47] Rachel Alexandria: Thank you so much for being on the show. This was such a great conversation, my dear
[00:56:52] Tonya Kubo: Oh, thank you for having me. Y- I mean, really, this has been a lot of fun
[00:56:56] Speaker 3: Thanks for taking a moment to tune in with [00:57:00] me today, and thanks for listening to Lonely at the Top. If this conversation resonated today, I hope you'll give yourself permission to pause and check in with what you might be carrying, because you don't have to hold it all alone. I am an executive coach who works with spiritually inclined powerhouses, especially those who wanna clean up difficult relationships and other secret messes.
[00:57:23] You can learn more at rachealexandria.com. If you know another leader who needs to hear this show, please send it their way. Because, yeah, it's lonely at the top, but it doesn't have to stay that way.
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