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The Relaxed Running podcast is a behind the scenes conversation with the best athletes, coaches and professionals in the world of distance running. From training, hydration and nutrition to racing and recovering, we learn from the best in the world.
Relaxed conversations which are packed with actionable takeaways to help you take your running performance up a notch. Save yourself years of guess work and learn from the people who are doing it at the highest level.
Tyson:
There we go, mate. So good to finally catch up or organize the time to be able to sit down and do this podcast with you I was just apologizing because I feel like kid life on my side of the equator has made it very difficult It's currently 6 30 a.m. Where you are, which makes me feel incredibly Excited that you would consider it worth your time to get up for such an early podcast But you said you had no trouble getting some sleep last night despite the fact there's a little bit of pressure to be up on time
Eoin:
Yeah, Tyson, thanks so much for having me. Yeah, exactly. You know, usually if you're going to like the airport or something, you can really struggle to sleep, but I slept fine. Like I usually get up around like 6.30, 7 anyway, so it wasn't that big a stretch. You graciously moved it from 5.30 my time to 6.30 and that made a big difference. Going to bed last night, I wasn't dreading it.
Tyson:
Oh Man I was dreading it for you I kept doing the I kept doing the conversions and I was like, oh no, how am I gonna justify? I've got to try and figure out how to make you happy and find a time that you're happy to record and also stay married so it was a very
Eoin:
Yeah.
Tyson:
It was a very delicate procedure, but now we managed
Eoin:
Uh.
Tyson:
to figure it out Are you a coffee drinker? Do you kick off the day with a strong coffee of any sort?
Eoin:
No, I don't drink any coffee. The only time I'd have caffeine is before a race. Yeah, like so many people are into coffee, so, and it's getting big here, but I always was like, if you can do it out of that, it's like, I don't wanna start. I have good energy anyway.
Tyson:
Yeah, it makes sense from a competitive perspective, I reckon. I had a friend, I don't know if you know Craig Huffer, he'd be 33, I think he ran 336, I know he ran 336
Eoin:
Jesus,
Tyson:
when he was
Eoin:
that's very
Tyson:
like
Eoin:
good.
Tyson:
20. This is back in about 2010. And I went out to get a coffee with him because we hadn't caught up for quite a while. And he ordered a watermelon juice. I said, mate, what are you doing? And he said the exact same thing that you just mentioned is that he tries to save it for special occasions. So, Well, is that a pre-race go-to for you? Will you always have a coffee before you get out there and race? Or is that just a sometimes
Eoin:
Yeah,
Tyson:
treat?
Eoin:
that's literally every elite runner. So
Tyson:
Yeah.
Eoin:
key supplements that every runner, the only key supplement that every runner takes is caffeine. And then like a protein shake afterwards for recovery. They're the only two that everybody takes. Like either in form of a tablet, in like maybe a coffee, like say two and a half hours before a race, the caffeine tablets or caffeine powders. people take like an hour beforehand. You know, the half life of coffee, coffee if people are gonna do it is six hours. So you're better off being like, do it more conservative unless it's a very long race, then you can, you know, say, I used to do like 1500s or five days. Like, you know, if you missed that by 15 minutes, you've missed a race where you're doing a marathon. If it kicks in after 15 minutes, it's not the end of the world. So, And then yeah, like a protein shake afterwards, everybody would have one of those. And then other ones that people try now would be for sub elite runners, Beatroot shots are quite popular. And they meant to have like, there's nitrates in them, which are meant to like open the blood vessels and now blood to move freer. There's debate about whether they work for elite runners because the... their ability to open the blood vessels is quite good anyway. And then there's a new one, Mertane has just come out with it for 1,500 meter runners, sodium bicarbonate. It was around when I was there, but it used to be terrible on your stomach and it made you feel like you had ants running around your body. So I never took it, but I think they've done, they've perfected that formula and a load of runners are taking that now pre-competition, like 1,500 meter runners.
Tyson:
That's interesting man. I remember back in about 2008, I had just moved out of home and I don't know how I had it. I think my mum had just packed it in a box for me. There was some bicarb soda in a box and
Eoin:
Yeah.
Tyson:
I think it was supposed to be there as like a cleaning product. And I remember I stumbled across some Let's Run article talking about bicarb soda being in some way beneficial to runners. And I had no idea. I didn't know the science behind it. I didn't know the measurements behind it. but I remember taking a table spoon and pouring it in a glass of water and just completely regretting the decision as I tried to get through a cup
Eoin:
Yeah.
Tyson:
of water because it might've been beneficial to my performance, but I'm not convinced that I had the ability to get it down. But I can imagine Morton's, they'd be mixing that with some kind of flavor to make it more palatable.
Eoin:
Yeah, because it's well about your stomach. People used to be, you know, there's no point to, it's a better performance, but you're not able to get onto the start line because you're in the toilet, you know. So, you know, they had to get that right.
Tyson:
It's a good point, Matt. So where are you at in terms of your running at the moment? Because I was so interested reading through your biography. What you've achieved in the world of middle distance running is pretty remarkable. I mean, I don't know how young you look. You've got a young looking face, but
Eoin:
Yeah,
Tyson:
it looks like
Eoin:
thanks,
Tyson:
you're...
Eoin:
37.
Tyson:
37, okay, it's a compliment. So I'm 36, a year behind you. I'd like to assume I've got a young looking face as well, but
Eoin:
I think
Tyson:
my
Eoin:
if you
Tyson:
running...
Eoin:
run you look younger.
Tyson:
Well, yeah, I feel like that's true unless you're a marathon runner. No offense to marathon runners out there, but they have the opposite effect. I've seen some of my
Eoin:
Yeah,
Tyson:
mates I
Eoin:
with
Tyson:
look
Eoin:
the
Tyson:
at
Eoin:
wrinkles.
Tyson:
now and I go,
Eoin:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Tyson:
and I can't talk. I mean, I've got wrinkles that need to be treated quite seriously at this point in time.
Eoin:
Yeah, I'm
Tyson:
I've
Eoin:
the
Tyson:
got
Eoin:
same.
Tyson:
a couple of mates who have been marathon running for a long time now and I go, okay, you've been hit by the weather stick, but I reckon you're right. Middle distance,
Eoin:
Ha ha ha!
Tyson:
you've been, I don't know, you just haven't been out exposed to that wind and sun. as severely as the marathon runners. But I say all
Eoin:
Taking
Tyson:
that to
Eoin:
it too
Tyson:
say,
Eoin:
easy on yourself, I'd say.
Tyson:
I say all that to say that it seems as though you've achieved a lot in a, you know, I was gonna say relatively short career, but 17 years, I could imagine, starting
Eoin:
Yeah.
Tyson:
at like an age of 20. Where are you at in terms of your training performance? What's on the schedule at the moment?
Eoin:
know what's so strange Tyson is that I've kind of achieved everything I want to achieve so it's a kind of weird and it's a weird flux in terms of now the only thing is I do love running just for running as well so it's not like I'm going to you know drop that off but it is a thing that like so I would have say for the listeners just very quickly it would have been a 1500 meter runner in my prime say broke the four-minute mile won like five national championships over 15 and 3k, ran for Ireland at European level. And then, you know, as he said, in your like kind of early thirties, like 32, 33, I was like, you know what? You can feel like I've kind of done what I'm gonna do here. I can maintain it, but I'm not gonna get that much faster. And then, so then I was like, you know what? It'd be great to break like eight minutes for 3k. 14 minutes for 5k and then 30 minutes for 10k. I've run say 49 minutes for 10 miles or close to it like 50, 49. And then I don't have much of a desire to do the half marathon or marathon. Just doesn't really suit my body, but yeah. So I hit all those. I hit the sub eight, the sub 14 and sub 30. So I don't know like. I don't know what I would do now. Like my coach wants to try this new way of training. And he is a lot of really elite runners. So he was like, do you want to do it? And I was like, yeah, so I might do that. It's gonna be for the same performance, like for same races, like local road races and national road races. So I'll still be running at a high level. But yeah, just more enjoying it.
Tyson:
So what's the difference in training?
Eoin:
The one he wants to try is the theory behind it is there's only like two elements of training that are important. I don't know if this will work. I said I'd try it though. So what he wants to do is he's listening to this Belgian coach and he's saying that based off the kind of Inga Britons and stuff like that, there's only two elements of training. There is power and there is aerobic capacity, building aerobic capacity. And the idea is that then you should just optimize for those two things, like 100% optimize for those two things. And I think in between that or anything that kind of varies that isn't really hitting what it should. So the training sessions are a lot then of like six sets of like a 200 meters in for me, like 28 seconds. So very fast. And then followed by uh 1k in 3.45 which for me for six minute pace is slow for a workout you know if you think my threshold pace would probably excuse me be about like 3.10 per k like kind of you know 5.05 5.10 so they do lactic at like 1.5 and that idea that being like that's purely aerobic but enough to like there's basically two turn points when you do aerobic You're at an easy run, there's the first time it spikes a little bit and that's like your first aerobic bit. It's even before a marathon pace but you're working more than an easy run. And then it goes and then there's another spike generally around three or four of a lactic and then after that it's all aerobic. So this will be like really focus on that first turn point, the first time you go into aerobic. Stay there, really build that base, that like base of the triangle. and then also hit the power so you don't lose that ability to generate the lactic at the top. So yeah, I said I like that. I wouldn't mind. I suppose because I've been a decent runner, he is guys who will be trying to go into world championships and stuff like that. So he just asked me, will we try it? So I'm going to try that for a while and see. Just I don't mind experimenting now, which is a nice place to be.
Tyson:
That's a really cool way to be. In terms of how that varies to your usual training, all these years, had you had a pretty consistent routine on a weekly basis that you were using?
Eoin:
Yeah, it'd be split into two. So obviously I've had a lot of different coaches, but I had two main coaches. So Emmett Dunleavy is my current coach, who I went to when I was going up the distances and then when I was working more. And then I had a coach, Thomas Chamney, who was my coach when I was doing like 800s and 1500s. So two things I think are there. One, it was like 815. Two, you're like in your 20s, you're really trying to be an elite athlete. you're running and then you're only working to support that running. Now it's like I'm working and like, I like to run, you know? So I think that the things that would probably help your listeners more would be how it changed. I would have went from like doing three sessions per week to two sessions per week. I would have went from doing like time and distance based training. Sorry, which I mean by that, it's like, sorry, pace and distance based. So. hit this distance in a certain time or run this pace to all like time and effort like heart rate based training and why that was great is that um you know why that was great was when you're working like you what you have other stresses in your life like you don't you don't want constantly to be having attention of you have to hit a certain time where if it's off a heart rate even if i'm like I don't know if it's on got up or, you know, I hang around with my nephew a lot, so, and he was sick. So like, I feel a little bit scratchy in my throat. So he, like, all this go out because it's on heart rate. If I am a little bit run down, the heart rates will be up, the pace will be lower, but I'll still be working in my appropriate zone. So the type of sessions I would do then, and the sessions were less intense. And maybe when you're coming into like a racing period, If you need to be good for the very first race, you would dial it in for the last six to three weeks beforehand. So typically week would be like maybe, I guess they'll run quite a lot. So it'll be one run of like maybe 10 miles, like 70 minutes. Then the second run on Tuesday might be 70 minutes again, but we might do, I would do like strides at the end of that. So you might do 65 minutes and then five minutes of like strides again, not. not going crazy, but just keeping a little bit turnover in their legs, then Wednesday would either be like that first turning point, which we call it nearly like marathon pace or marathon heart rate, or the second turning point, which would be lactic threshold. So those sessions, like simple ones you could do would be like five by seven minutes. I would build up to that by the way, if you weren't used to that, like three by seven minutes at marathon pace essentially. Marathon heart rate, I would recommend everybody just get a lactic. a lactic threshold test, you just need to get one ever in your life. They're about a hundred euros. Australia is more expensive. Could be like $200, but like one time doesn't matter your level of fitness because they're all internal measures. So like I had my first test when I was like 18, as I said, it's nearly 20 years. My heart rates have gone down about three beats. So if I just got that test at 18. Like my heart rate is basically my heart rate. If you have a high heart rate, it's not like when you hit a certain age or a certain fitness level, you stop having a high heart rate. That doesn't happen. The amount you generate lactic is always gonna be roughly the same. What happens is how fit you are, like how fast I can run at those intensities. Like if you think about it, like when you started running, it wasn't like you were like, because people are sometimes, oh, I'll wait till I'm fit. It doesn't work like that. It's like when you started running and you might have been, half an hour slower over a marathon or you know 10-15 minutes slower over 10k you weren't like thinking well I'm only running four out of ten because
Tyson:
I'm
Eoin:
I'm
Tyson:
going
Eoin:
not
Tyson:
to go ahead
Eoin:
fit
Tyson:
and start
Eoin:
you at that time that felt nine
Tyson:
the presentation.
Eoin:
out of
Tyson:
So, I'm
Eoin:
ten
Tyson:
going to start with the presentation.
Eoin:
out of ten nine out of ten out of ten never changes what changes is how fast you can run at nine out of ten out ten out ten so I would always recommend anyone it's just sometimes to give like the non elite the normal runner if you're out there running get this test done. If anybody, if you get the test done, you can send me the results at own EOIN, or this better one, everard, E-V-E-O-R-A-R-D, Pilates, P-I-L-A-T-E-S dot at gmail.com. Like, I'll get nothing from that. I just, I don't mind helping people out to record the data. So sorry, I went into a segue there, just that's important. So
Tyson:
No,
Eoin:
that's
Tyson:
no.
Eoin:
how I'm judging, yeah. Do you want to ask any questions on that, or would I keep
Tyson:
No. Dude,
Eoin:
with
Tyson:
it's
Eoin:
it?
Tyson:
really
Eoin:
training.
Tyson:
interesting. So I'm just, I'm trying to just get my thoughts around cause I'm a little old school in my approach. And I think part of the reason that I'm a little old school with the athletes I coach, and I was explaining this to. I think I said this on, I recorded a podcast with Ben True this morning, the American distance runner. And one of the things
Eoin:
Yeah, he's
Tyson:
that
Eoin:
really good.
Tyson:
we were talking about is that my very first coach or one of my early coaches was 79 years old when I started training with him. And when I started training with him, this guy had a great reputation. He coached a number of Olympians. He had a number of great athletes that he was working with here in Victoria. Excuse me. And he had such a little focus on technology. And the reason I find it so interesting is because I am curious about the heart rate training and about this lactate threshold training. And I mean, I'm curious to delve into this more with you in just a moment. But one of the things that I often notice in myself is that I'll run a lot by feel. So sometimes I'll leave my garment at home. I won't be looking at heart rate. I won't be looking at pace. I'll just be running it at how I feel. And I'm almost certain, I am certain, that some of the runs that I do would be a lot faster than some of the others based on a number of the factors that you mentioned. Sometimes you're tired, sometimes you're getting sick, and the effort level's still about the same. So when an athlete asks you about the difference between getting a lactate threshold test and figuring out, okay, what is the heart rate that I should be operating on versus. How should I run according to how I feel? Like, is there a benefit in knowing your actual heart rate-based training over just running to how you're feeling on a particular day? Oh, I lost you there, brother. I think you're on mute.
Eoin:
100%
Tyson:
There
Eoin:
sorry
Tyson:
we go.
Eoin:
I went to
Tyson:
Now you're.
Eoin:
get a bit of water. Yeah 100% and like I don't know the runners you're coaching but like I listen like you're a smart dude you'd get that within like one day and it just adds another tool to your toolbox and that was something that people used to say to me back in the day now I never I was on this early like you know nearly 20 years ago. Oh it'll give me too much to think about. is another thing people say, it's like I'd rather run by field. Runners are notoriously bad at that. If you're good at that, that's brilliant. They
Tyson:
It's
Eoin:
intent
Tyson:
true.
Eoin:
like, like you give a runner six out of ten, they'll, they'll push. And the thing, right, what, what the heart rate helps is it gives you, like there are days like, so like your training, Tyson, would still be the same. In terms of what I mean by that is, say, if I'm getting coached by you, your athletes then would have their zones. And then you're at, then you would tell them though, they're like, I'm a bit tired or that, cause the heart rate won't always work in terms of, it can be a day where my, like I could be fine, but my heart rate just won't increase. Or if the reps are below three minutes, it's not enough time. So the thing you have to tell people is like, look, this should take time. Like the first rep, if it's not into the right heart rate zone, don't be sprinting to get this heart rate up. I don't wear a heart rate monitor when I'm running easy because I can run easy. But I have a friend then who is a lunatic on easy runs. So he has to wear it.
Tyson:
Yeah.
Eoin:
Because I'll know by feel it's like, yeah, I'm going too fast. I'm actually, I need to be pushed. So sometimes if I'm on like a zone two run, which is like just slightly steady, we could still have a chat. I need to be told like, man, you need to go a bit faster. You're just chilling again.
Tyson:
Yeah.
Eoin:
So it just. It just gives it that most runners are like, oh, like the amount of people who tell me, oh yeah, I was, I was, I did, I did my tempo at like, I did five miles in sub 25 minutes. And it's like, they can't run, they can't run like a 10k at that pace. You can't run probably a five mile. Like they probably ran their PB nearly. And it's like, that's not tempo. That's not threshold. That's, that's above 80%. And if you want to improve. aerobically, you need to train aerobically. So if you are like, what the heart rate does is like, you can't go above that zone, because once you're above that, you're training something different. And I did a podcast myself with this guy, Dave McCarty, we're talking about where we want to push on, but your threshold pace is too far away from your race pace to make a difference, and that's the system. Do you know, like, so say for me, I work out in miles, I don't know, I know people do a case, just for simple measure, right? Say if my 10k pace is three minutes per k, but my threshold pace is like 320 per k, just for sake of argument. If I push that to like 315 per k, so I'm going faster than I should be, I'm still 15 seconds a k off my race pace. That's not close enough to race pace to get me used to that pace. So you'd be better doing 325, going a little bit slower. And then actually doing like specific race work afterwards that hits like three, 255 a K. So yeah, a lot of times I think it's the opposite. People would have told me, yeah, it gets me think, like I'll think about it too much. There's nothing to think about.
Tyson:
Yeah.
Eoin:
You have a number on a heart rate on your watch and you just don't go above that number. Like
Tyson:
Yeah.
Eoin:
sometimes you will make the distinction like, okay, the heart rate's not coming up. And... do it easier because it should still feel like eight out of 10. So it still would give people those intensity efforts. But I see most people can't, they don't have the confidence that you would have then to go, you know what, this is that effort. They naturally go, I could probably push on a little bit more.
Tyson:
Yeah, that's a very good case for it. It's actually a perspective I hadn't really considered before is One thing that I would have said to you back in the day, is it's something that I don't really want to think about. I'm pretty good judge of what it is that I'm doing in the easy runs. But you're right, I would have been a culprit for a tempo run, just trying to run with, I used to do a lot of running here with Liam Adams
Eoin:
Yeah!
Tyson:
back in the day when I was competing. And dude, Liam Adams, as much as I love the guy, was running times for 10K that I wasn't running. And so me running with him for our tempo runs would have been a joke. So I like the idea that a heart rate monitor
Eoin:
I mean,
Tyson:
actually
Eoin:
that happens,
Tyson:
serves.
Eoin:
sorry, that happens all the time. We were talking, I was talking about that with Dave. There was guys, there was two minute differentials, but everybody used to think like five minute miling was like a goal standard for tempo runs or threshold. So lo and behold, no matter what, you know, if you were sub 32 or you were sub 30, everybody seemed to have a five minute threshold.
Tyson:
Yeah, it's very
Eoin:
You know,
Tyson:
true.
Eoin:
it's like we're all learning together.
Tyson:
I like the idea of it being used as an accountability factor. It actually, when you look at it like that and you can be disciplined like that, it actually should alleviate stress rather than add any more stress because if you're focused on heart rate rather than time, of course it's gonna take away stress You don't need to be worrying if you're not hitting a certain mile split in the time you did last week.
Eoin:
Yeah, exactly, yeah, that's exactly it. Like, I'm a kind of overanalyzer anyway, so when people said that, it's like if I was going out and every week had to like, like judge if this is correct. Now, a lot of people, like my friends, can do it without their heart rate. They just know by feel now, but they have used their heart rates for a long time. So, but I'd be like, oh God, is that too fast? Is that too slow? How was that compared to last week? Where it's like, it's just on the heart rate.
Tyson:
Yeah, that's a really good point. So are you running just with a garment? Are you using a heart strap
Eoin:
Garment
Tyson:
or?
Eoin:
and then heart rate strap. Do not use the wrist strap, they're terrible.
Tyson:
Yeah, I've heard that. See, even myself, I've never really ventured too far into it, but the distance that I have delved into that, I've heard that the variability or the accuracy
Eoin:
Yeah, yeah.
Tyson:
of the wrist strap
Eoin:
Just
Tyson:
is
Eoin:
as
Tyson:
just way
Eoin:
if you
Tyson:
off.
Eoin:
think about it, it's like so little and it's fine when you're, you know, like resting heart rate, the kind of pulse is more like predictable and slower. But once you get into a rapid pulse and moving your arm that much, it's not, you need just a chest strap. Again, $50, you know, 50 euros, maybe $100. I know sound is like an upfront cost, but like if you have a... a partner, a husband, a wife, boyfriend, girlfriend, like they are freaking out about what to get you for Christmas. So give them a help. They love this. My wife came down and was like, I want the lactic test and heart rate monitor. The next six months of my life would be just a joy, just waiting for Christmas. I'll be putting out all the tinsel, not like sweating bullets on the 20th of December trying to find out what I'm going
Tyson:
Oh
Eoin:
to get her.
Tyson:
man, I wish
Eoin:
Waiting
Tyson:
my
Eoin:
for
Tyson:
wife,
Eoin:
that disappointed look on her face.
Tyson:
I wish my wife was more interested in a heart rate because this would be something I would buy with a smile on my face. But so
Eoin:
I know
Tyson:
besides,
Eoin:
I'm trying to get my wife into a lactic threshold, leave leaflets around the house.
Tyson:
it's a hard sell, it's a
Eoin:
I
Tyson:
very
Eoin:
hear her
Tyson:
hard
Eoin:
there, I
Tyson:
sell.
Eoin:
think she heard me.
Tyson:
So besides your easy runs, you're wearing your heart rate monitor for every of your sessions.
Eoin:
Yeah, but I only session twice a week.
Tyson:
Okay.
Eoin:
And then once you're doing those less than three minute reps, if you're doing minute on, minute off, don't worry about your heart rate, just do it off feel. Do them off feel, does it feel like 10K pace? But again, people go too fast. As I said, if you think of aerobic, it's max 90%, kind of 85%. So if you do a minute on, minute off, and you say, okay, we're doing minute on, minute off for 15 minutes. and with a minute easy say and I wanted that like five, 10k pace. If at the end of like say minute three I said to you okay because I want you to keep that going now for 15 minutes. I would say 90% of people have a freak out they're like it's not a chance I can keep the space going but then that's not 5k or 10k pace. So if you're doing those reps like always especially at the start imagine what it's like when you settle into the run. So okay you have that big burst at the start. But then you do settle into a pace and then at the end, you're pushing again. But if you're doing that, it's the feel. So the other sessions then might be, I do a lot more of the aerobic stuff, it's easier to do now. So it might be like, you might do six minutes at, like maybe, what would you do, like six minutes at lactic threshold again, and then you might do like three by 30 second hills. So you might go five minutes at lactic threshold. three by 30 second hills, five minutes, then like two minutes off, five minutes LT, three by 30 second hills, five minutes LT, three by 30 second hills, or you might do five or 10 minutes of like AT or LT, that's your Marathon or Lactic, maybe like 10, 30 second hills, quite hard, or you know, some kind of hill section there in the middle, and then just some easy like AT running again. So like a little bit of Robeck, hit some of these like minutes. or efforts and then go. And then when I am getting ready for 5K or 10K, I'm a newer muscular runner. And so I need, I need like specific work. I need to run at the pace. I tell a lie, I do this every two weeks now. I'll go to the track and say, if I'm getting ready for 10Ks, I need to hit like say three minute K pace. It doesn't have to be a hard session. It can be, I actually enjoy longer recoveries, but I need I need practice at hitting the pace I'm gonna run. So we might go, again, do some five minutes or 10 minutes of AT or LT, and then I might do eight by 400 meters at 72 seconds is a three minute K pace. So 472s off a minute or off 45 seconds, and just get, usually a minute, because as I've got older, I've tried to give longer recovery. It's like when we're going faster, it's not like I'm pushing the whole time, but I'm trying to get very comfortable at that pace. And I need to do that for races. If I just do all the aerobic stuff, it feels like I'm sprinting on the day.
Tyson:
Yeah, yeah, that's a really good point. That's one story. I was shocked at when I had Stewie McSwain on here He was telling me that
Eoin:
Our
Tyson:
when
Eoin:
Siri
Tyson:
he
Eoin:
is a legend, yeah.
Tyson:
Dude, you know Stewie
Eoin:
Yeah, I went to San Diego. It's kind of doing some training and a little bit of physio. So.
Tyson:
He's one of the best blokes in the world of distance running. I, so Stewie and I, when he was about 14, we had the same coach. I'm about seven years older than Stewie. So I was running around thinking, I was just showing him the ropes. I was like, I'll show this young fella how it's done and give him some inspiration. And then about a year and a half later, he came out and just wiped off all my PBs. And I was like, okay, I take back all the arrogance that I ever brought to the table.
Eoin:
Yeah.
Tyson:
So dude, he's, in terms of blokes, you want to see well. he's right at the top of the list because he's a very humble guy. And I know
Eoin:
Very humble
Tyson:
one thing.
Eoin:
and his talent is ridiculous. When we were in Mount Laguna in San Diego and he had an injury, so he was just back. So he's doing some runs and then he would have done a session with Ryan Gregson and he was way ahead of us and just with Ryan and he was just back and he was a young guy.
Tyson:
Yep.
Eoin:
It was like, he was just like, it's like, oh my God. He
Tyson:
It
Eoin:
was
Tyson:
was...
Eoin:
really good. You're thinking, Jesus, he's decent. And then that summer he was running like. took like 40 seconds off his PB running like 1320 or like,
Tyson:
Oh,
Eoin:
and he's just gone
Tyson:
dude,
Eoin:
on from there.
Tyson:
it was unbelievable. I mean, he's one of those guys as well. I've gone off topic. Just before I tell you the story I was about to tell you, the thing that blew my mind was on the podcast he mentioned at the time he had just run 331 for 1500. And he said that in the lead up to that training, he had done no... 400 meter work sub 60 second pace, which was unbelievable to me. But one thing I love about Stu and I think a lot of athletes of all levels can take out of a story like a bloke from a bloke like him is his ability to return to form after a bad race is unbelievable. Like I often found that if I went out and say a good time for me was 3.49, that was my PB for 1500.
Eoin:
Yeah, very
Tyson:
If I
Eoin:
good.
Tyson:
went out and ran 3.54 say, and I'd put my, put my, uh, you know, maximal effort and it was just a bad race, had an opportunity. I would go, Oh, okay. Maybe I'm in worse form, question my training, question things. And I felt psychologically
Eoin:
Yeah.
Tyson:
that would linger with me for a little bit. Stewie has this ability to go out and for whatever reason, have an average run, which happens very rarely, luckily. And then the next week come out and set the national record. I remember a couple of years ago, he had, he, uh, it was diagnosed with pericarditis after his booster shot. Um, and Lot of people are gonna what's going on here's to he's lost it He started running a couple of runs that was he was running like 349 in huge runs And obviously this is a bit of a different example because he actually had something physically
Eoin:
Yeah,
Tyson:
wrong
Eoin:
yeah.
Tyson:
with him at the time but even To once your pericarditis in his instance had healed
Eoin:
healed.
Tyson:
and fully recovered To be able to come out and go. Okay, we're back Dude, I remember being so happy the day that I saw he ran 1256, because it was after
Eoin:
I know
Tyson:
all
Eoin:
that
Tyson:
of this.
Eoin:
is so sick.
Tyson:
And dude, I knew nothing about any heart issues. I'd never heard the word pericarditis until some of these conversations around athletes, you know, suffering after their booster shot or second dose or whatever had come out. And he came out and I was like, crap, I hope this doesn't mean he's done forever.
Eoin:
Yeah,
Tyson:
And then
Eoin:
yeah, yeah.
Tyson:
I just took so much respect away from that race because I know how difficult it is. to navigate your way through a couple of poor performances, to put yourself not only back to where you were, but beyond it.
Eoin:
Yeah.
Tyson:
So I think that not only the physical talent, but just that mental ability that an athlete like him has is unbelievable.
Eoin:
That is, you know, because people always say like mental strength in races, which I actually don't really believe in. Like I feel it's like either physical practice, like you need, like me, I just actually need to physically like practice running the paces. Um, but that's the mental strength where it's like trust in the process that like, you know, I have plenty of bad runs, like loads, but nobody ever asked you about the bad runs. And it's like just knowing that like, okay, you might've been tired there. That didn't go well. And as you said, but normally. There is something, it could have been like the training was a bit hard or you maybe were carrying some little infection, but just keep rolling and with the training you will get better. And then at the end of the season, you can reflect and go, okay, maybe why was, say if the whole season went poorly, then reflect, like, okay, what was it that I could have done differently? But yeah, like I think that's the mental strength that's really needed. It's like staying the course and just putting yourself back on the line each time
Tyson:
Yeah,
Eoin:
makes a massive difference.
Tyson:
yeah, it's really true. Man, one thing I was keen to pick your brain about, because I like personally, I like the adjustment from three sessions a week to two sessions a week, especially as I said, I'm 36.
Eoin:
Yeah.
Tyson:
From a physical perspective, even for an elite level athlete at the peak of the game, like when you're winning national titles. The idea of trying to recover effectively between three sessions a week seems like a little bit of a task. So I'm not sure if you wanna speak to that, but in terms
Eoin:
Yeah, but
Tyson:
of...
Eoin:
if you think of it like, yeah, as you said, if you're doing three a week, like even with the Australian guys, they're like, we got, they call them triple Tuesday. So they go, yeah, like workout in the morning, gym in the middle of the day, easy run, you know, so you're doing three years, like this is like a full time job. Um, but if you think about it, then it's like, everything is geared towards recovery. So. everybody you're going for a nap in the middle of the day you're going to bed early you know the minute you come home it's like your protein shake you're eating you don't you're not so because I think that can happen some people and Tyson is that not thinking about like well life is different now as you know um like now it's like if I'm doing a workout like I when I lecture And then I might either have patients or some of the Pilates stuff, or I might have lectures that I have to run to. I might have to do a session up at six and do the session for half six to be back showered to go to work. So the recovery isn't there. That's like, oh, well, it's not like I do this. And it's like even emotionally, I was like, we have nothing else to do now. We just have to recover. We just have to relax. And then go in two days time again. The other thing when you're doing that, you'd have a hard session Tuesday. and you do like a thresholdy type running on Thursday which is only meant to be 80% so it's not like super hard it's and then the hard session again on Sunday or Saturday so it's not like they're doing three hard ones back to back it's generally the way that would work it's like when I was at that distance I would do a hard session at the at the distance pace so like say if it was a 5k it would be like a hard 5k session on Saturday, say, then Tuesday might be an eight, a seven or eight out of 10, 10k type session, something like above the distance or below the distance if you wanted, it could have been like some threshold and then some like 3k work to get you like, like kind of sharp. And then on Thursday would be maybe above the distance aerobic work. which would maybe be like a six, seven out of 10 intensity. And then back to Saturday, which would be a nine, 10. So it's not like, okay, we're just hitting it hard the whole week.
Tyson:
Yeah, that's a really good point. You mentioned that you're lecturing, are you lecturing in the, solid background in the world of movement, haven't you? I think I
Eoin:
Yeah,
Tyson:
was,
Eoin:
biomechanics, yeah, that's my
Tyson:
yeah, biomechanics.
Eoin:
main thing.
Tyson:
I was having a read through some of your stuff and I was so curious to talk to you about this because I've had quite a lot of strength coaches on here. And one of the things that just blows my mind is how strong you can be in one capacity, like in a gym sense, and how weak you can be in another capacity in a Pilates sense. And this is something that,
Eoin:
Yeah.
Tyson:
exercise physiologist over here, John Quinn, who was an Australian track coach, uh, works with a number of the AFL clubs, which is the top level, our version of Gaelic
Eoin:
Yeah,
Tyson:
football.
Eoin:
yeah,
Tyson:
I don't know how well you
Eoin:
yeah.
Tyson:
know the scene.
Eoin:
As it
Tyson:
Um,
Eoin:
rules, yeah, big time.
Tyson:
how was he real? Yeah. So he works with a number of clubs there and, and he encouraged me in my, uh, sub elite performance. Now I'm not trying to qualify for Olympics or run PBs, but just stay healthy and strong and, um, just feel good physically. He encouraged me to substitute one of my strength sessions in the gym with a Pilates style session. And
Eoin:
Oh
Tyson:
the
Eoin:
definitely.
Tyson:
reason he did that, yeah, was because I was explaining to him, I do a lot of sessions online with a pretty Australian chick called Move With Nicole. She's got a really big following. And I think she's got a background in dance and ballets. And some of the strength exercises that she does so casually absolutely blows my mind. I did a session the other day, I wish I could tell you which one it was so you could see it. But she was walking through an exercise and usually I pride myself on mental strength. and ability to push through discomfort, but physically it was like a core exercise and halfway through I just felt my legs come to the ground because she had me up against the ropes. But you put me in a gym setting, I go relatively well I think
Eoin:
Yeah,
Tyson:
for
Eoin:
yeah, yeah.
Tyson:
my body weight. Speak to me a little bit about Pilates and the impact that something like a strength routine, whether it be in the gym and Pilates or some alternative. sort of focus that you have in the strength routine can have on running performance. Because when I was running competitively, it seemed to be something that at least I was overlooking. And it seems a
Eoin:
Yeah.
Tyson:
lot more valued these days.
Eoin:
I think for running, you get better at running by running. Even though I have, look, and if anyone wants a free trial, I give myself a cheeky plug. You can get a free trial over Pilates. So it's everard, E-V-E-O-R-A-R-D, pilates, P-I-L-A-T-E-S.com. In the top right hand corner, see a free trial. So if you wanna click that, you can do the Pilates that we're gonna talk about. It's like a 45 minute class. But as you get older, as you said, There's two reasons. Running is very good cardiovascularly. It's very good for burning calories, but it doesn't actually activate the muscles that well. That's why all the injuries for running are like plantar fasciitis, achilles tendonitis, knee pain, because it's the ligaments, it's the tendons, and the joints that get overloaded. So what the Pilates is really good for is activating the muscles, like waking the muscles up. So it's like if me and you, you know, we went to a bar, if someone starts to fight on you, I'm there to help. But if I'm asleep, you're on your own. And it's the same with running. It's like, if the muscles aren't woken up, the ligaments, the joints and the tendons are on their own. They have to absorb all the load. If the muscles have been woken up, if the joints are moving smoother, then they're just gonna help you naturally when you run, because the body wants to stay healthy. But if it's, if they're not, activated they're not going to be there. So doing the gym, doing the Pilates and we'll talk about the Pilates versus the gym in a little bit is important. If we think of running performance then how it helps is there's only three things that make you a good runner. There is VO2 max which is kind of natural but you can improve it with the high end running. There's the lactic threshold which we talked about and then there is running economy. How smooth you are running. So again if you If you're doing something like Pilates, which is really like controlling the movement through different ranges, is really like working on core strength. Well, then if the joints can move smoother. It's like if you have oil on a chain, it's going to move easier. If when you hit and your core is kind of like subtly moving you like left and right because it's not strong or you clip the inside of your leg each time. So if you come home and it's been wet and mucky and you have like dirt on the inside of your shin, that means that the glute medius on the outside is weak and it's hitting. So it's like things aren't efficient. We're not moving as smoothly and as efficiently as we can forward. So adding that strength, that's how it would help the running as opposed to the under your power. It's like when you're pushing off, it's not as hard to do that. How it differs then, some people, The gym is excellent though, if people want to do that and didn't like the Pilates, but it's the control of the movement which is really good. It's like we're making sure, like say in our class, we're really making sure of like we have the neutral spine. We're really dialing in how to do the movements. So if I'm doing a gym, the first element even for like general fitness, not for running, is good movement. So it's like, and there's three things that cause good movement. I told you I'd go on absolute runs, so
Tyson:
Oh,
Eoin:
cut
Tyson:
my,
Eoin:
in
Tyson:
now
Eoin:
here
Tyson:
keep
Eoin:
if I need
Tyson:
going. This is
Eoin:
a
Tyson:
so
Eoin:
chance.
Tyson:
interesting.
Eoin:
Okay, there's three things that cause good movement. Good mobility, good movement, so we can get that through moving through the joint, like our foam rolling or stretching will help that. Stability, like just being able to actually activate the right muscles, like just being able to physically turn on the core, turn on the glutes. And then lastly is like a body awareness. It's like being aware of our position in space and that's the That's what Pilates is really helping with there. That's the sports Pilates I developed is really working on those for runners. So we're getting on our feet and we're practicing all those moves. And it's like, as you said, it's that control that can make you burn where when you're just pushing through, it's not as hard and it's on the actual physical strength. So that movement is quite good. And then the next level up on the pyramid is... work capacity, that's the ability to tolerate load. And this isn't just for runners, this is if I was just doing a general gym. So that's where the next people should be doing like three by 10, three by 12 reps, you know, 60, 70%, burning, but what you're trying to do is like, prepare your body for like more strength activities as you go up. Then you'll be doing like maximum strength. If people were looking for like speed or power, it's important that first ability engine, like you could have a one liter car. it's never going to do well, even if it's critiqued to the end, it just doesn't have enough horsepower in it. After that, then you're looking at your power. And after that, then you're looking at like plyometrics and then you're hoping that translates to speed. Now, for generally for runners, as I said, you'll get better at running by running. So I really focus on the I think the bottom two elements that pyramid are the most important to kind of wake up the muscles. So you'll do some kind of Pilates. or something that makes you work on the technique, work on those ranges. And then if you want then maybe adding one gym, which focuses a lot on the work capacity elements.
Tyson:
Have you got a graphic for that? I would love to see that in picture form. I feel I'm
Eoin:
Yeah,
Tyson:
such
Eoin:
yeah,
Tyson:
a video.
Eoin:
I'll pop that
Tyson:
Dude,
Eoin:
up, yeah.
Tyson:
I was gonna say, I might even, in the show notes where I link everything that
Eoin:
Brilliant,
Tyson:
we've spoken
Eoin:
I'll
Tyson:
about
Eoin:
do that, yeah.
Tyson:
here, I might even link that and steal it for my own selfish purposes.
Eoin:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Tyson:
Obviously, man, like we could do a number of podcasts just on what you've spoken about there, but
Eoin:
If you do want
Tyson:
one.
Eoin:
to do another one on that pyramid, because if people are interested in the gym side of things, it's really interesting. And something that people don't, even how they structure a gym, like when I say that generally, you want to have, and you want a little bit of that in all your gyms and then have more of a focus. So yeah, it'd definitely be something we could do.
Tyson:
Matt, we'll talk about that because I'm very keen to talk more in detail about that one. One thing that I wanted to ask you about, and you mentioned it there, was I love the analogy of the two blokes at the pub about how
Eoin:
Yeah,
Tyson:
if one thing turns
Eoin:
classic
Tyson:
off, the other
Eoin:
Irish.
Tyson:
one's carrying the weight. Yeah, classy, I was gonna say, you'd never find me at a pub with you because I've learned from stereotypes that it's a dangerous thing to do.
Eoin:
Yeah, yeah.
Tyson:
Mind you, we've got a reputation of our own to uphold. But one of the things that I was curious about was you mentioned that, say for example, like plantar fasciitis might become a problem because there hadn't been enough activation or enough strength that's been developed through that. To go back to John Quinn again, one thing that he does with his athletes is to get them to do quite a lot of, for this particular issue, get them to do quite a lot of work in sort of soft sand, whether it's the long jump pit in bare
Eoin:
Yeah,
Tyson:
feet,
Eoin:
good.
Tyson:
to try and activate that part of the foot. Because my question was, as you're explaining that, and I know it's a little bit of a tangent to the main point there, but how do you actually go about activating little problem points like that? Because on my return to marathon preparation, I've both dealt with a little bit of plantar fasciitis and a little bit of calf strain. knees have been holding up okay. But in terms of, I understand how to load up the calves quite effectively and to take care of
Eoin:
Don't
Tyson:
that.
Eoin:
load up the gas either.
Tyson:
Ah, okay, speak to me on that. That's another interesting topic, even in the recovery process.
Eoin:
Yeah.
Tyson:
Okay.
Eoin:
Because my thing right is that, okay, so to answer your first question, doing stuff barefoot, if you are barefoot running, only do like five, 10 minutes max, but
Tyson:
Thank
Eoin:
do it regularly. Sometimes people go bananas with that and do loads, and then you can get more impact injuries. But a little bit of that, yeah, fires it up. When we're doing our gym or we're doing our Pilates, if people wanna do that free trial, you'll see I do everything barefoot. Then it's just like, I don't wanna,
Tyson:
you.
Eoin:
If people do the free trial, you're gonna see the type of exercise and the type of intensity you need. You need to get these burning. And after that session, you won't be thinking like, oh, how did this work? Like you'll see that it's just simple exercises like your bridge, some like, like single leg deadlift, standing on one leg, bringing the leg back. So those type of those type of exercises to activate the muscles will work. Again, you can. If people want to see my class, it's for beginners. So you don't need any experience. Try it for free. I honestly don't mind if you never do it again, but it gives you a good idea of the type of exercises. Now in our course, there's a lot of things to cover. So we're changing up the type of exercises. Like the weeks are not that similar from one week to week eight. On the calves then. the key thing that you want to do, it's like, if you think about it, a lot of running injuries are overload injuries like plantar fasciitis, calf strains as well, or Achilles pain. It's like those areas are being overloaded. And if you think on a marathon training, it is slower running. So you're not really getting that knee lift that you normally would say doing your 10 Ks or you would have been a 1500 meter runner. So what you need to do then is not, overwork the calf with heel drops, heel raises, but actually work the rest of the leg. So the one I really like is the single leg deadlift, bringing the leg back. So standing on one leg, bringing the other leg back till it won't lift anymore. And you're in a kind of like a tilted position and then holding that for like say 10 second holds. What that's gonna do is get the muscles of the foot burning and then it's gonna get like the hamstring and glute working a lot more, which then takes pressure off the calf. What a lot of people do is my calf is sore, But if that's the overloaded area, it's like, it's like if me and you are in work, right? And no, let's say we're two rowers and I'm like really lazy or I'm weak. And like you work like hell. And then like, but you're getting tired or you're getting sore. And our thing is like, well, let's just make Tyson stronger so he can handle that load. It's like, no, let's make Owen work more. He's the lazy one. So now Tyson actually, Tyson's doing his job. Like, so it's what ways do you fix it? Do you work Tyson harder so he can handle an inappropriate load or do you get the other parts of the chain working more so now that part of the chain isn't overloaded? And I like the second bit, I like working other bits. So, single leg deadlift is my favorite exercise for people who have any calf or Achilles problems.
Tyson:
That's so interesting. See, I can feel my achilles and glutes burning just hearing about that exercise, but
Eoin:
Yeah.
Tyson:
I'd been doing the opposite of that, and I'm open
Eoin:
Loads
Tyson:
to
Eoin:
of
Tyson:
so
Eoin:
people
Tyson:
much.
Eoin:
do the opposite.
Tyson:
Yeah, I'd been doing the opposite. I'd been told by a guy that I see as a massage therapist, that what you want to do and the way he explained it to me, he said, okay, there's obviously been some micro tears in your calf. And what's going to happen is if you go right now and try and run, obviously that's not going to heal. It's just going to be magnified. The pain, the actual damage. He said, but over time without actually loading it up was his reasoning is you're going to leave that like a vulnerable bit. So even when it heals, it's not going to heal. effectively and I'm probably completely I mean I hope he's not listening to this because I'm not going to name him just because I've probably destroyed what he was trying to say.
Eoin:
Yeah.
Tyson:
But yeah he was just explaining that essentially without that focus load on the calf it's never going to heal in the right capacity. Is there anything to that or is that just
Eoin:
Yeah,
Tyson:
a little bit of
Eoin:
and especially if it was really chronic. If someone came in and it's like, they've had chronic Achilles problems where we're stopping running, I'm gonna then do heel drops, heel raises with them because we need to, and like less than three out of 10, but running itself is putting that load through it and it's probably putting a little bit too much load through it. So
Tyson:
Mm.
Eoin:
definitely my first point of protocol is like, when someone has like a calf strain or like that, like that the calves are getting sore, but it's not an injury, they're still running. It's like, you're gonna get so much better bang for your buck doing like the single leg deadlift. Because the thing is with that exercise, the calf is already then stretched isometrically. Like you feel it in your calf as well, because standing on it for so long will get it burning. But you're not lengthening and stretching, you're not really loading it up too much. You're putting it into a position with the rest of the leg and everything is working appropriately.
Tyson:
Yeah, that makes so much sense. So
Eoin:
But
Tyson:
essentially
Eoin:
because I've
Tyson:
it's
Eoin:
honestly
Tyson:
this.
Eoin:
I've had people who've come to me with like terrible Achilles and like going for that solution has worked way better.
Tyson:
Yeah, okay, I like that. So it's essentially just not trying to throw out a blanket rule to everyone who comes to see you and saying, okay, like what's the actual problem? Is it chronic? Is it not? How do we
Eoin:
Yeah.
Tyson:
alleviate that pain? I think I was probably just putting a blanket over what is very personal advice, which yeah, maybe works
Eoin:
No, but
Tyson:
to
Eoin:
a lot
Tyson:
some.
Eoin:
of people do that. I think they go for what they're chronic. Like the heel drops, heel raises, is like a study by Aronson. That dude, the reason he wanted to do that was the surgeon was like, your leg is not bad enough for surgery because his chelus was that sore. So he was trying to break his tendon. He was trying to snap it for him. And then over time, as he kept loading it to try snap it, it just, the pain went. So there definitely is like, you can get a micro stretch. It can load the tendon, which is important. Load is important on a tendon, but like, so we're talking about people who have just calf pain or a keyless pain and they're still running. That bit is like, try get the rest of the leg. You know, as you said, in marathon prep, it's like, if you look at the way you run, you're probably very calf dominant on that. So then if you go and the only exercises you're doing are very calf dominant, it's like the calf is getting loaded like crazy. If it's a case where you're having to rest because of Achilles' pain. Even then I'd probably do two weeks of
Tyson:
I'm not sure if I'm
Eoin:
the
Tyson:
going
Eoin:
kind
Tyson:
to be able
Eoin:
of Pilates
Tyson:
to do this.
Eoin:
strategy
Tyson:
I'm
Eoin:
that worked the other areas. Glute bridge, a lot of balance, the sole of your foot is burning. Single leg deadlift will work really well.
Tyson:
Yeah, man, I'm so interested to do another round with you at some stage if you're
Eoin:
Yeah,
Tyson:
interested.
Eoin:
definitely, I love this!
Tyson:
I'm aware of the fact we said we'll do around about an hour and I know you're just starting your day and I've got to go pick up kids from daycare. So
Eoin:
Yeah, perfect.
Tyson:
I won't linger for too much longer, but mate, let's line up another one. For everyone interested, I'll make sure that I link the free trial to Owen's
Eoin:
Brilliant.
Tyson:
membership. the website, anything else. Hopefully if you could send me that graph, I'll put that in for any
Eoin:
Yeah,
Tyson:
other
Eoin:
yeah,
Tyson:
visual
Eoin:
100%.
Tyson:
learners
Eoin:
I'll
Tyson:
out
Eoin:
do
Tyson:
there.
Eoin:
that right now.
Tyson:
And mate, let's talk and we'll line up around two.
Eoin:
Yeah, and if people have questions, I love that. Like I've done that where any question on running, I'll give a good stab or I have a couple of different opinions and I love to get Tyson's opinion. So we can do it on, we'll do it on the SNC and like building things on like back pain and stuff like that and like how to put an overall program there. But if people have like any questions that we have here or heard me on other things and want to get some question, just, or you know what's the best? really specific. I am a 54 year old runner doing my first half marathon. I trained this time this week. What type of training should I be doing? Or I've had this injury. You'd be surprised what kind of advice we can give and I love that.
Tyson:
Yeah, no, fantastic, man. All right, let's do that. I'll make sure I'll link it all in the show notes below. Thanks again for coming on. Round one, we'll do round two again real soon.
Eoin:
Great, thank you so much, Tyson. Take care.
Tyson:
Thanks man, see everybody. Awesome brother, dude that was fun man. I got
Eoin:
Is that flu?
Tyson:
more than I bargained for.