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Join Andi Graham of Big Sea and Warren Wilansky of Plank as we explore the future of cultural engagement through the lens of museums, arts centers, and cultural institutions, talking with innovators crafting unique digital experiences that inspire and transform the way we connect with our communities.
Andi Graham (00:02.921)
Welcome back to the digital stage. It's been a little hot minute since we've been here, so I'm actually really excited to be here and talking to everybody. Today, Warren and I are here to talk about purpose -driven marketing with the true powerhouse in the field, Shonali Burke. And Shonali is an award -winning strategist who helps organizations dream big and actually achieve those dreams, which is not something everyone can say. I love it.
Chief Marketing and Strategy Officer for Washington, D .C.'s Arena Stage. She engineered a phenomenal post -pandemic revenue rebound, taking earned revenue from zero to a staggering $7 million, and even took a show to Broadway in the process, which I can't wait to hear about.
Shannali is a firm believer in measuring what matters, focusing on outcomes, not just vanity metrics, my favorite term that I have to say again and again and again to our clients when they're like, why don't we have more followers? She teaches at Johns Hopkins University and is currently writing her first book called The Non -Obvious Guide to Public Relations and Communication, which I, for one, cannot wait to see what comes out. So thanks for joining us, Shannali.
Shonali Burke (01:11.927)
it's absolutely my pleasure, Andy and Warren. Thank you so much for having me.
Andi Graham (01:16.103)
I have so many questions for you, but the first I want to hear about this book. Tell me about the premise of this book.
Shonali Burke (01:22.686)
thank you. I love that we're starting off with the book. So my publisher, Rohit Pargab, who I put my birthday twin, by the way, which I think is cool to have a publisher who's your birthday twin, has a long and storied career himself in PR and marketing and then branched out into publishing some years ago and started an imprint called the non -obvious series, which I thought was so smart because it's kind of the anti
Andi Graham (01:24.968)
Yeah
Shonali Burke (01:51.458)
you know, the other kind that makes you think you're stupid. So it's like the blank, stupid person's guide to whatever. And the tagline of these books is that they're like having coffee with an expert. So, you know, there's a whole plethora of them and they're really, really fun. They're fun to read. They're easy to read. And they're full of actionable information. So when we were talking about potentially a book for me to write, given that I kind of grew out of PR before I moved into
broader marketing, we were talking about how everybody thinks they can do public relations because everybody, most people in the business world can string a sentence together. And therefore they think they can write a press release and get media to an event and do the things that make the public engaged while having actually a very narrow opinion of what it truly is. Because when we think about public relations,
Andi Graham (02:34.94)
huh.
Shonali Burke (02:48.416)
We are really talking about the classical definition of building and maintaining mutually beneficial relationships with your publics, a .k your audiences. And that's so much more than just media relations. So we were talking about that and I thought, well, you know, that's something I could write about because my entire career has been not just about media relations, certainly in the earlier part, but then as I got more involved in social media and social tech.
really starting to experiment on how to leverage technologies, social technologies, to build these relationships so that we don't just grow our advocates offline but online as well. And then how do we connect them? How do we connect our various audiences to the mission of an organization so that together we are working towards the same goal, which should be both beneficial for the publics as well as the organization.
So that's a very long way of saying what it's about.
Andi Graham (03:48.711)
Yeah, but it's so important and I love, so the word connection I think is really important to me and when we talk about marketing and I own a marketing agency, when I talk about marketing to my clients, they think it's all about pushing and sharing and distributing and that word connection is so lost in the idea that it's actually a conversation you're trying to start. It's a relationship that you're trying to build. So I'm curious with your expertise in social and put in
building those connections on social media, how do you encourage it to be more of a two -way connection versus just followers and pushing out information?
Shonali Burke (04:30.882)
I think part of it is to really help an organization understand that a conversation is not and should not be something to be scared of. I think a lot of where organizations get stuck, even today, is that if they engage, and I'm going to use air quotes a lot because, know, what does that mean? If they engage or if they invite you to a conversation, they're going to hear things that they don't like. Well, I have a news flash for you.
People are saying things you don't like all the time. You are just not listening or you are choosing not to listen. That's one of the things that social technologies gave us. They gave us the ability to listen to what more than just our friends and family and chosen stakeholders are saying. They gave us the ability to really tap in, not to the zeitgeist, then at least to the public at large and opinions and perceptions in general.
that you could then really think about and say, hmm, is that really how I'm perceived? What do I need to do to change that? And the beauty of using social tech is that you don't have to depend only on traditional media or legacy media to do it. That's a whole other conversation. And I think legacy media is very important, by the way. So I think it starts with that, really trying to help them understand that there are conversations taking place all the time. And true power
is in harnessing the information and the passion of the people engaged in those conversations and kind of taking a deep breath and going, know, what are they saying about us? Nine times out of 10, it's not as bad as we think it's going to be. And I think that's the other thing that, you know, why don't we just start dipping our toes into some listening and some engagement and see how people react. Because if you
tend to do things on a smaller scale that is usually easier. You get used to it. It's like learning to swim, right? You start off in the shallow end and you start, you you learn how to tread water and so on. And I can speak to this because I'm learning to swim right now. So yes, for real.
Andi Graham (06:43.539)
that's so fun. Yeah. neat.
Shonali Burke (06:46.734)
So I think it starts, that's a huge thing to be able to do, to be able to get an organization to say, yeah, maybe, right, maybe there are these conversations happening, so we're just gonna kind of buck up and listen to them and then see what happens. And I think once you do that, you are nine times out of 10, again, going to find people who want to help you succeed. And those are the kinds of people who become your advocates, your supporters, your ambassadors, all of the things that.
are now all of the place in quote unquote, influence marketing that really has been done for decades. It just wasn't called that. And that really helps you together achieve that goal of moving your mission forward with that public trust.
Warren Wilansky (07:29.858)
Shannali, I have a question for you, which is, have you run into or how do you get, let's say, leadership to buy into this? In other words, I'm sure there are traditional leaders who are still scared by social media, even though they must know in deep down that they have to really depend on it. How do you get buy -in when you've been dealing with, let's say, an organization? It's not in their DNA yet.
Shonali Burke (07:50.104)
I think there's usually two things that really propel leaders. One is fear of losing money and one is fear of losing their job. And there's probably more, but those are usually the two big ones, you know, because a lot of in nonprofits leaders report up to the board. So if we can make a case to help them shore up their position.
Warren Wilansky (07:59.938)
That's fair.
Shonali Burke (08:18.764)
because then in doing so, we are helping the organization. And okay, I'm going to start that one again. This is starting to sound very self -serving. I'm sorry. Orin, do you mind asking me the question again, please?
Warren Wilansky (08:29.546)
sure. So I guess my question to you, Shonali is, you know, there must be some leaders or some people that have been on teams that you've been, you know, collaborating with who just deep in their heart just either didn't get social media, or, you know, just were scared of it or didn't want to listen to those voices that were, you know, that might be negative. So I guess how have you gone about navigating and swimming through those conversations?
Shonali Burke (08:55.278)
That's such a great question, Warren. You know, a of times, a lot of times I've seen that if you do, if you start off with one, you could do like an environmental scan and you could also look at similar organizations who are doing the things, you know, in social. And you do a little bit of research and you are likely to find some results that they have talked about. Whether it is growing audiences, whether it's been able to
translate into revenue or organizational KPIs. And those are great use cases to bring to leadership to say, look, this is an organization with a similar mission, know, similar kind of space that they're working in. This is what they've been able to do. How about we try something like this? So I think you can look for similarities with organizations and also revenue. You're also kind of your size because
Andi Graham (09:40.739)
Okay.
Shonali Burke (09:54.094)
There's not much point in going to a small nonprofit and pulling up a great example of one that's 50 times that size, because then your leader is going to say, we just don't have the resources to do that. And I think then the other part is talking about how technology allows us to try things in a very nimble, in a very agile way. So we don't need to put a ton of resources, financial resources between starting to try certain things in social.
So for example, when we started doing influencer marketing at or influencer outreach, I should say at arena stage, one of the first things I suggested because there was no such program was rather than investing into advertising with influencers and so on, inviting them to opening nights. That itself was a departure, but that was something that already existed. So we could simply leverage an existing event.
and allocate some tickets for influencers, creators, and do that a few times and then show the content results that it's having that's really helping to boost the organization's overall content online. And then little by little, you start to see, you you can make progress.
Andi Graham (11:11.367)
I love that. I'm curious how you tie together, you know, with your background in measurement and analytics. I think one of the hardest things to sell to the board, and we work with a lot of boards, that when you can't see direct ROI on brand marketing, on social media, how do you tie those efforts into...
you know, because reach is one thing, but we talk about vanity metrics. A lot of times reach or followers, likes and engagement can be vanity metrics and unless they convert into real revenue, it's really hard. And so I'm curious what sorts of KPIs or what you're looking at to sort of build when you build a program, how that all works together.
Shonali Burke (11:52.748)
Yeah, absolutely. That's such a great question. I always, always, always start at the end. Always. You know, and maybe it's just one thing, right? Okay, we know that our revenue goal is blank. That's a hard goal. There's no ifs, ands, or buts about that. There's no, well, we want to get five million impressions. What does that mean? So whatever we do, we are working backwards from that goal and everything we do
Andi Graham (12:07.303)
Yeah. Yep.
Warren Wilansky (12:08.268)
Mm.
Shonali Burke (12:22.242)
as to ladder back up to that goal or whatever the two, three, four organizational goals and KPIs are. What I started to do relatively early in my career because I was so interested in connecting outputs, the work that we're doing to the actual outcomes, was start to look at correlations. And this was a lot of the work that I did that was informed by my work in the agency world.
Andi Graham (12:23.987)
Mm
Andi Graham (12:41.469)
Mm -hmm.
Shonali Burke (12:47.234)
But then when I worked at the ASPCA and I was actually building and running the department where I had, I don't want to say the luxury, but the freedom of putting in place a system or a program that we could actually try and do consistent tracking and say, okay, what are we tracking to? If we are tracking audience growth, online donations, what are the specific things we are tracking? And what, what do we, where do we need to see the needle?
Andi Graham (13:16.605)
Mm -hmm.
Shonali Burke (13:17.23)
move to. So what I found very important, and this is something that I've reinforced to my students that I did at arena and wherever I go next, is it's not important to track 50 things, but what are the two, three, four things we're going to track? And then create a system where you are doing that consistently. So at the ASPCA, had some early wins that gave us budgets that we could put in place a pretty sophisticated
tracking system, were looking at messages, we were looking at specific organizations, we were looking at specific spokespeople, but we were constantly also tracking to web analytics, to online donations, to lifetime revenue as well. That was a major, major KPI for the organization and what were the correlations. So that was a very sophisticated system. On the flip side, when I worked with USA for UNHCR,
Andi Graham (14:10.312)
Mm
Shonali Burke (14:15.866)
on the refugee awareness campaign, the Blue Key campaign several years ago, they didn't have a big budget. It was, however, an early use case in building online influencers and online advocates. So by that time, I had become a devotee of tracking URLs and really creating, and Warren, will love this because as you know, if you're doing something online, you can track everything.
So if we identify certain places our audience needs to get to, whether that's a sales page, a goal completion, a specific page in your campaign, and you create those tracking URLs, and then you create specific versions for every group that you're working with, whether it's online stakeholders, the media, organic media, paid media, et cetera.
then you start to really see what that picture looks like. And that's what we did very successfully. And I'm very proud of Adorina that we built up that system so that over time, whether it was a show campaign, whether we were experimenting with a brand campaign, we had tracking URLs of the wazoo. And we did very, very deep and detailed marketing and analytic reports that also tied
to the sales stat. So we could see when we were using or pushing out a certain promotion or certain URL where it was landing the most effectively, which mechanisms of the outputs were contributing to that. And over and over again, it was email. And so then email became really the driver of how are we making sure that we are leveraging email enough so that the different audiences we're talking to
feel compelled to take those actions. And so in that regard, even if social wasn't necessarily a driver of revenue or the highest driver of revenue, oftentimes it's in that top of the funnel space where people are using it to get to something. Or that's where the conversation is being driven. Or then when you're collecting data even anecdotally or through service, well, I heard about it on social.
Shonali Burke (16:36.224)
or somebody comes to you to say, I saw this on blank social platform, how do we do this?
Warren Wilansky (16:43.01)
I love that at the end of the day, it always ends up back to email. know, for all of the tools, it's for all the tools we use and all the different things that we can do. At the end of the day, you know, somebody has something binging at them in their inbox, they're going to click on it and open it.
Andi Graham (16:47.602)
I was gonna say.
Shonali Burke (16:58.04)
Yep, absolutely.
Andi Graham (17:00.181)
It's unbelievable to me how many clients we have that just think, our one e -newsletter every month is fine, that's all we need to send, good enough. my gosh, no. Email is by far the highest converting channel we have across all of our client accounts as well. It's incredible.
Shonali Burke (17:16.704)
It is, again, I think that's kind of, know, the, it's like the bad rap that PR has because everyone thinks they can do it. Email has the same, has the same perception, I think, because everybody has email and everyone is so tired of constantly being spammed. And this is where I think email service providers, especially in the early days did not do a good job of educating their customers.
Andi Graham (17:23.464)
Yeah.
Yes.
Andi Graham (17:30.856)
Yep.
Shonali Burke (17:43.522)
because I've lost count of how many times my email addresses just added to some list. And I'm very picky about permissions and you have, you've got can spam and everything, but half the time people aren't paying attention to it. Yeah.
Andi Graham (17:55.687)
Nobody cares. Yep. It'll come. know, Canada's got some better lockdowns. California's got better lockdowns. Europe has very good lockdowns. you know, the US just, they don't consider, we don't value data privacy and data security in the same way that most of the world does. It's gonna take some massive breach or some sort of nefarious use case, I think, before we actually get some good definitions around it.
Shonali Burke (18:21.646)
I'm so sad to agree with you. And what's even sadder is that those breaches are happening every day. Every day.
Andi Graham (18:24.315)
Mm -hmm. I know.
Andi Graham (18:30.053)
Every day, everyone's, yeah, I know, everyone's social security number was just breached a couple weeks, like last week it was, yeah, so, but we're, yeah, exactly, yep, yep. And here we are, still doing the same thing. So some of the stuff I think that you just said is so interesting to me because we work with a lot of orgs that are smaller in size and so they've got really small marketing teams and so to me, building a really sophisticated marketing attribution tool
Shonali Burke (18:37.698)
Well, last week is when we heard about it.
Warren Wilansky (18:40.606)
That's true.
Andi Graham (18:59.187)
feels really daunting. But I love the idea because building separate UTMs for all of their landing pages is really quite easy. With a subscription to Bitly, you can create as many as you like. And so being able to track what you're publishing across different platforms by using a different web address is just such a simple and easy way to see what's bringing ROI.
Shonali Burke (19:22.394)
Yes, absolutely. And I would also go further than Bitly and I have nothing against Bitly. I love Bitly. I have my own branded Bitly because it's cool. I would highly encourage using Google's native tool, the UTM builder, and then using your own shortener because I'm not, and perhaps you already know this, Andy, I'm not sure that Bitly tracks everything if it's not.
Andi Graham (19:27.335)
Yeah. yeah.
Andi Graham (19:31.912)
Yeah.
Andi Graham (19:37.907)
Yep, UTM's,
Shonali Burke (19:51.468)
built in Bitly. So I think if you have the actual UTM code and then, you know, it's folded into Bitly or, you know, whatever else, because everybody likes their own short now, you've got your basic code in there that, you know, most of the time people are not stripping out. I think you would only be a marketing geek if you're actually like stripping it out. You don't want that.
Andi Graham (19:53.97)
Agree.
Andi Graham (20:00.327)
That's what I would do, yep.
Andi Graham (20:16.381)
That's me. I do. always strip out the UTM before I paste something to share in our Slack channel or anything else. Yeah, I know.
Shonali Burke (20:22.54)
That's what I do too. But she's always holding something. I'm like, I know, I'm not gonna do good.
Andi Graham (20:29.142)
It's true, I know that. I don't ever think about that as being a marketing nerd thing, but it absolutely is. So, yeah, here we are.
Warren Wilansky (20:36.7)
I'll admit to doing something also, is actually when I go to an ad, if there's a page on Google that I'm given a paid ad and an organic ad and I'm upset at the brand, I will click on the paid ad to make sure that they have to spend some money.
Shonali Burke (20:51.298)
You know, I have never actually done that, but that might, I might start doing some revenge clicking.
Andi Graham (20:51.517)
Let me just tell you.
Andi Graham (20:57.021)
Well, you know what that is, it's bad media buying. Like nobody should be paying for their brand terminology if they're already ranking for those things. So that's just somebody not paying attention to their pay book, pay per click campaigns. Like it's got to exclude those campaigns.
Shonali Burke (21:09.006)
That's really smart. That's such a smart thing to say, Andy. And Seth Godin, I don't know if you're not a fan, then I'm just, I'm a huge, huge Seth Godin fan. And I don't know if he got his calendar that he has like a page a day kind of thing like this. And just in the last few days, was one about, it might've been his email. Now, if Seth watches this, which he won't, he'd probably be like, who is this? Why is she mangling all the things that I do?
Andi Graham (21:16.679)
I'm a fan. Yeah.
Shonali Burke (21:38.626)
I think it maybe was in his, it's one of them. When you talk about the difference between sponsored results and organic results and how you really have to work much harder to get those organic results and there's, know, and really kind of putting the focus on the community building and putting in the effort to build those. I do think that people's, people don't really care at the end of the day, most people.
will click on a sponsored link, they're not gonna go, well, they paid for that. So that's why it's up there. Most people will just click on it. But like you say, if you work at getting those organic results up, then that's a better, more efficient use of the marketing dollars that you do have.
Andi Graham (22:25.307)
Mm -hmm. Yep. I've actually heard the inverse as well, that people are starting to trust paid results more because of the fact that you're paying for them. It must mean that the content that you're serving is relevant to the search terms. So no one's going to waste their money promoting an ad that if somebody clicks on it, they're going to say, no, this is not what I was looking for, right? The ad content match is so important that they know that they're going to highly converted.
Shonali Burke (22:39.681)
Interesting.
Andi Graham (22:55.09)
on those ads.
Shonali Burke (22:56.046)
Unless someone is very nefarious and is active with you all the time.
Andi Graham (22:58.609)
Yep, which they are all the time. yep, yep, competitive bidding is a thing, so that's for sure. All right, let's go back to the topic. I have some questions because we do work with a lot of museums and cultural institutions as well, and one of the hardest things that I have when I'm working with them on sort of messaging strategy and comm strategy is getting them to embrace their larger purpose when they're doing their communications, when they're doing their messaging.
And I know you talk a lot about purpose -driven marketing, but a lot of our organizations are simply selling tickets, getting people to sign up for a membership because it's all about the benefits, trying to, it's like a very transactional approach to the marketing that they're doing. And I think they're really missing the boat in positioning their collections, their institutions into the broader picture. And so I wanna understand sort of how you think cultural institutions can more effectively
sort of communicate their mission and their values through their digital marketing or digital communications in a general sense.
Shonali Burke (24:05.078)
If you haven't already read her materials, I think going to Colleen Dillons Schneider's website and know your own bone blog is absolutely brilliant. Warren is nodding because we both saw Colleen speak at a conference last year and it's just mind blowing. And the data that she reports on is fascinating and it would be very pertinent to your clients because consistently the data shows
that organizations, including exhibit -based organizations like museums and art venues, who are communicating around their mission are retaining and growing audiences. Everybody post -pandemic is struggling with negative substitution. that is, hopefully I'm quoting Colleen correctly on this, but that's the phenomenon of for every
every historic visitor who's aging out of the visitor demographic, is there at least one visitor aging in, but it's not. And I forget the exact ratios, but it's less than one. So ideally you want to have more than one. So you would have, you know, 1 .2 to one or whatever. But if you have like 0 .92 to one or 0 .95 or 0 .96 or whatever that is, you could
Andi Graham (25:10.917)
Mm -hmm.
Andi Graham (25:26.301)
Yeah, growth.
Shonali Burke (25:35.278)
That means for a hundred thousand people who are leaving, you're only bringing in 92 ,000 or 95 ,000 or whatever that is. So even if you're marketing and everything is on point, you're still losing audience. And that's just going to keep happening. And then you've also got changed, significantly changed behaviors that are contributing to this, where people just have different cultural consumption patterns now.
So every time an organization shows its value to the community, how its mission is helping to serve the community, the changing demographics of the community, and how it is an asset to the local, regional, national area that it serves, that becomes a point of differentiation.
for someone making the decision of whether to go to Museum A or Museum B.
Warren Wilansky (26:40.428)
It's interesting. I got the opportunity to visit Arena Stage a few months ago. Thank you, Shanality, for that. And I wonder how that position plays with Arena Stage or did play with Arena Stage because while there were what I would call grayer -haired people in the audience, there was a lot of young faces there. And it felt like the investment in the organization was in the broader community and not just to traditional audiences.
Shonali Burke (27:09.378)
Yeah, remind me which show you saw, Warren.
Warren Wilansky (27:13.103)
I'm drawing a blank on the name right now, but it was, I pardon?
Shonali Burke (27:16.11)
But was just as far summer. It was just as far summer, right?
Andi Graham (27:16.669)
You
Warren Wilansky (27:21.078)
Yeah, yeah.
Shonali Burke (27:23.029)
was it maybe exclusive? Well, it doesn't matter, whichever the show was. I'm glad that you noticed that.
And part of that, I think, was the cumulative effect of everything that we've been doing. So consistently starting to bring in influencers, again, air quotes, but people who create content, several of whom over months and a year plus started to engage with the organization in different ways. So they may have come in initially as creators for their platform, but then...
they're a photographer in their own right or videographers, then they started creating different kinds of content. when I think every time people are, are vesting of themselves in an organization, they have a vested interest in telling people about it. That's not why you bring them in, but that's what happens. So we see that time and time again. So it's things like that. It's things like really building up our media presence to be larger than just the shows. So you could have.
Andi Graham (28:10.931)
Mm
Shonali Burke (28:26.764)
I'm not going to say a formulaic way, but certainly when I learned at my first PR job in the country, which was back in San Francisco, and it was primarily theater, PR and marketing, the agency I worked for had a great system of pre -show publicity, know, show publicity running up to opening week and then kind of maintaining the stories. And so we were constantly coming up with
exciting and interesting stories to pitch to the media. So certainly institutionalizing that approach at ARENA, but also making sure we were talking about the brand. We were talking about the importance of ARENA to the economic and cultural history of the District of Columbia, of the Southwest, of how it was.
so pivotal in the redevelopment of the Wharf area, how it's been a driver in the nonprofit theatre movement in the country. So really making sure that there were three or four key messaging pillars, as it were, that I worked a lot to develop, working with leadership and my colleagues as well to make sure that we created very strong messaging pillars.
that we had proof points that we could pull on when we were either pitching stories or executives were talking to with the media. And if you show someone, think I am yet to come across a legitimate journalist or media professional who when you are saying, know, there's a bigger picture here, there's a bigger story here, that they won't at least listen to you. And oftentimes that will weave its way.
into the story as well. Now we have no control over that, but what we do have control over is are we sharing that information? Are we talking about how this particular show is so mission aligned and why, and examples of how that effort has played a part in the overall growth of the theater and of the area. I hope that helped explain it.
Warren Wilansky (30:44.066)
yeah.
Andi Graham (30:46.185)
I love it. I have one last question because it has been a delight talking to you. I could probably talk to you for another hour and a half, so I want to make sure that you and I get a chance to connect afterwards. But one thing I like to ask everybody is, if you had a piece of advice to give a young marketer coming into a performing arts arena or into arts marketing in a general sense, is there any advice you might give to somebody coming into this space?
Shonali Burke (31:09.314)
Yes, I would get very friendly and very cozy with data and with analytics and lose your fear of it immediately because the world is already driven by data and analytics and those of us who work in arts and culture, in entertainment, it's very tempting to think that the art will drive everything and unfortunately it won't because at the end of the day we live in a world
that is driven by data and data is driving revenue and profit. And make no mistake, nonprofit organizations have to learn how to bring that money in to keep the lights on so that they can fulfill their missions. So they cannot operate at a loss forever. Ultimately, you're gonna have to find a way to break even and to start exceeding your expenses.
because that does not allow you, otherwise you can't invest. You can't invest in the growth of the organization, in the professional development of your staff, contribute to society. you know, it's a contributed revenue. The donor dollars are hard to come by and they're getting fewer and fewer. So you have to make it, you have to be able to explain to people why your organization, why what you do
is so important and how it helps make their life better and how by them helping you, they are helping to really support an ecosystem that gives back to our society and to our culture. And to do that, you have to be able to at least understand and look for the stories in data. And to me, that's what's so exciting about data. It's not just, you know,
It's a bunch of ones and zeros if you're not looking for the stories. But if you look for the stories and then tell those stories in a compelling way, that's how you build those relationships and grow them for sustained growth.
Andi Graham (33:18.355)
I love that. So where can people find you if they want to connect with you after this episode?
Warren Wilansky (33:19.5)
That's great.
Shonali Burke (33:25.71)
Thank you so much for asking. shanaliberg .com. So my first name, last name .com. My blog is not updated. So please don't hold that against me. There's just a lot going on right now. And also I'm easy to find on LinkedIn. It's just shanaliberg is my name. If people want to hit me up on LinkedIn, I would really appreciate a note.
Andi Graham (33:35.817)
you
Shonali Burke (33:51.744)
saying who they are and why they're connecting because I do get inundated with a lot of connection requests and sometimes I can't respond to them all. But either through that or through my website, they'll find a way to email me and you know and I if I can help anybody I absolutely will but if I can't I'll say so and I hope that that will be taken as respectfully as I I said.
Andi Graham (34:15.525)
And tell us a little bit about the book. When can we expect to see the book?
Shonali Burke (34:19.426)
That's the million dollar question. When I finish it.
Andi Graham (34:22.205)
Yep. Okay, sounds good. All right, so we'll go follow you on LinkedIn.
Shonali Burke (34:26.702)
Part of my sabbatical is supposed to be finishing it, but I'm also working on finding my next great job. So that's kind going to have to take priority.
Andi Graham (34:31.401)
Mm -hmm. Yep.
I know how that goes. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for spending time with us this afternoon. It has just been a delight talking to you.
Shonali Burke (34:42.198)
My pleasure. Thank you so much for having me.
Warren Wilansky (34:44.748)
Thanks again.