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In the latest episode of Grow and Convert Deep Dives, we have an open discussion around a topic that we've been thinking about a lot lately: Should we reposition our business as a SEO agency instead of a content marketing one?
We thought it would be interesting to everyone to lay out the arguments, challenges and opportunities that we see in repositioning our business before we go through with it. We're still unsure if we're going to do it, but we'd be curious to what everyone thinks after they give this a listen!
We share our thoughts and ideas on how to grow a business.
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In this video, we discuss like this whole
thing around should we brand ourselves
and position ourselves as an SEO
agency versus what we're doing now,
which is a content agency.
And one thing that I should
mention, and we can link in,
in show notes and on YouTube
our positioning article.
Oh, yeah, that's a
Good idea. Conversation.
We talk about at some point
our homepage headline,
but I wanna just emphasize that's
not just what positioning is.
It's a lot more than that.
What we don't discuss in there,
and what you guys don't see,
is there's this whole conversation and
kind of sales pitch that happens in our
sales conversations where we explain
our process, we differentiate.
Right now, we do that as a content marketing
agency with respect to other content
marketing agencies.
But in this new one, that whole
thing will have to change.
I mean, not completely,
but significantly.
Yeah. To brand as an SEO agency.
And so positioning then in
articles and other places,
it'll change when we are introduced
on podcasts, it'll change.
And that has a larger effect.
And if you do that everywhere,
not just on your homepage headline,
then there's stuff off of your site
from other parties that changes your
positioning, for example,
at that point, then
people will, um, mention us in
the conversation of SEO agencies,
in list posts where their listing
SEO agencies, and that's when, you know,
your positioning has changed.
So I just wanna mention that
it's not just about the homepage
Headline. Yeah.
It's, it's trying to craft the narrative
about how you want people to perceive you.
So what we're trying to do is take all
of the value props that we have as a company
and distill it down into a simple way
to explain what we do and what our goal would
be, and then changing our positioning
and changing all these aspects of our site is
to get people to change the
way that they think about us.
So right now, they think about us
as just a content marketing agency,
and people might even think of us as
a bottom of the funnel content marketing
agency. In this conversation, we discuss,
is that the way that we want to position
ourselves going forward, or do
we want to position ourselves as,
people who generate rankings and content
takes more of a backseat in, uh,
the conversations and the conversation
turns more towards the SEO side of things
and, and generating rankings
for your highest value keywords.
So this is gonna be a fun one.
I want to start with the story that got
you and I to talk about this positioning of
Grow and Convert and, uh, we're
gonna anonymize the client the story,
but I think it's actually,
correct me if I'm wrong,
I feel like this actually has kind
of come up before with multiple clients.
Yeah. Uh, I don't know if it's
come up with multiple clients,
but I think that we've just noticed, uh,
what was happening a lot more in the last
couple months, just talking to different
prospects and learning about what their
agency, their current agencies are doing.
Yeah. So the story that happened, this
client is we just started an engagement with
a new client. Now I'm gonna say some
obvious things to people that have been
following Grow and Convert,
but we, we, our engagement,
we're a content marketing
agency with that client.
So, um, we are, we do three blog posts
a month, but of course the results, again,
very obvious, if you've been following
what we do, it's not the blog post.
The results, of course, is
the results of Pain Point SEO,
it's the rankings and the
leads that we generate.
So we're starting that, like
everything's going great and, um,
the client happens to mention,
Oh, I can show you,
maybe I'm getting the details wrong,
but it's something like, I can show
You the keywords, I can show you our
keyword spreadsheet that the other agency
created. Yeah.
Or I think she said like, the SEO agency
created, We were like, Wait, what, what,
what SEO agency?
What are you talking about?
She's like, Yeah, so,
and I think they're like actively
engaged with that agency.
Yeah. They are actively engaged.
Yeah. And so we're like,
Oh, that's interesting.
So she pulls up this keyword spreadsheet,
and from my interpretation,
and you can say whether yours was different,
I, I didn't count, We don't have it,
but I swear it's like, like hundreds
of keywords are in there,
like just a bajillion keywords, like
every possible family of keywords,
every possible keyword underneath
each family, like hundreds.
And so we're like, Oh.
So like my first reaction is, well,
if this is already in progress,
what the hell are we doing?
Why
Did you hire, Yeah. Why'd you hire us?
And so we start asking questions.
So, so like, what, what are
you guys doing with these?
Are you already attacking these keywords?
Do you already have stuff going after it?
And, uh, the client says
basically, Oh no, the,
the SEO agency created these
content briefs for each one,
but they're not actually gonna produce
the posts or articles to rank
No, no, no. I, I, I think there's
more details that are important.
So the SEO agency pitched re-architecting
the entire website and adding all these
pages to try to beef up the website
to rank for all these different keywords.
And then the approach that they took was,
instead of doing research on what keywords
that the company should go after,
by understanding the business, they just
looked at all the competitor's websites,
saw what pages those competitors
had gone after,
and then created this keyword
map, or essentially, or like re uh,
renewed site architecture based
on the competitor's keywords.
Okay.
I'm glad you said that
cause I completely forgot.
Yeah, but you're right.
all good.
So, so, but let's zoom out.
So there's these hundreds of keywords
or like a bajillion keywords,
and our key thing was like,
are you going after these?
Like, like what actions are
you taking to rank for these?
Well, because, because
it affects our own process.
So after our kickoff meeting, now
we have to go prioritize keywords.
And so we wanna make sure that there's
no overlap in the keywords that we're going
after and whatever the company is doing
internally or any of the other agencies
that they're working with.
Yeah. And so what we learn is basically
the client isn't really taking any action
on them. And, and it's not really
their fault because they've been told,
like you said, by the SEO
agencies, is like, Well,
the way we're gonna go after these is
by what you said, rearchitecting the site,
adding a bajillion pages for it.
Or what I remember her saying was, Oh,
they could like write the articles for each
of these that they've created
content briefs for.
I'll talk about those briefs in a second.
That's another issue. But the, but
it's gonna like cost, like, you know,
a bajillion
Dollars. It was $2,000 a page.
What?
So ba ba yes.
So basically I,
Do I not remember this
Because you're always bad at remembering
this stuff, but, um, yeah.
So they created this whole Excel
spreadsheet, it has all these keywords,
and then deliverable was just
basically next to each keyword.
There was a content brief, which is essentially
just an outline of what they think
that you should create
to go after that keyword.
But then they didn't even do the writing
or any work to actually go after that
keyword. So the deliverable that the
client now has is this massive spreadsheet
with like a hundred,
150 keywords with pages.
Now that's put on the client to go create.
There's a small team.
I think they only have one writer
or marketer in house besides her, who
I don't think is a writer.
Yeah. But he does some,
he does some writing.
He's done some writing
for, for them before.
But yeah, so now they're left with
trying to create these a hundred,
150 pages to go rank for
all these different keywords.
But if the, if the agency, if she wants
the agency to write the articles or the
pages, it's gonna cost $2,000 per page
to go after each of these hundred keywords.
So you can do them out there.
So that's out of the question.
And then she's just like, Well, it's gonna
take me forever to even just get one of
these done. So now they spent all
these, this money on this project,
and they're kind of just at a standstill.
Like, I guess she, she thought this
was going to do something different,
or this is what she was
told that she had to do.
And now after getting into the project,
she was just like, This is way too much.
And I feel like we're not
gonna get anything done.
Yeah. So this is the point
where, let me zoom out now,
and this is where it starts reminding
me of these little things that other clients
have said that's similar.
Like, they engage these.
So, so actually before I do
that, let me cut to the chase.
I have a couple
Examples too, but the thought that crossed
our mind, we'll get to the examples,
but just to get to the point, the
thought that crossed our mind is,
what the heck are you retaining
this SEO agency for ?
Like, we can get better
results than this.
And then I was like, Are we tying one
of our hands behind our back or like somehow
hampering ourselves by the branding that
Grow and Convert is a content marketing
agency? And would we be better off,
and would clients be better off if we were
branded as an SEO agency?
That of course, happens
to focus on content.
We'll get to that later because that
would have them avoid these engagements with
other SEO agencies.
That I feel like, and this is the pattern
to other things that I've heard from
clients keep doing this thing where they
charge clients for what I'm gonna call
like the groundwork over and over again.
But the, uh, the actual main work of
ranking for additional keywords that will
bring in leads is not happening.
It doesn't happen, or it takes
forever or it's done poorly.
What do I mean by groundwork?
It's like this other issue agencies that
be like, Oh, we're doing an SEO audit.
Some companies are like, we're on
our third SEO audit from some company.
Like if you're a, if you're a
B2B SaaS company, what does your,
what marketing website look like?
It has like 10 pages, features,
solutions, case studies, pricing,
and it's static largely.
What the heck are you auditing?
Like what are you auditing
over and over again?
Like what, what is changing?
You're not amazon.com,
you're not Home depot.com.
Like what are you auditing?
You know? And so, um,
and they're just, are
Their conversations I've had
too, Companies are paying,
let's say eight to 10 grand a month
for onsite optimization again,
and I think a lot of these
Agencies a month.
Yes.
Yeah. What are you doing agencies?
Month five?
They're, they, they pitch onsite
in technical optimization.
And I think for, for most of the clients,
they just don't know what that means.
So they, they, they're like, Oh,
on, like, on page optimization,
Great. I wanna get my page optimized.
Exactly. But, but then every month the
client just has no clue what's actually
happening and nothing's moving forward.
And I've heard horror stories like this,
I would say a lot over the last three
months as we started talking to people.
And we always ask the question
in the sales call,
What have you done in the past on seo?
And a lot of 'em will say that we've
hired some agency to do on page optimization
or technical audits
or anything like that.
And they haven't actually, the agency
hasn't really helped them go after or rank
for keywords.
Yeah. Which is really interesting.
So like, what is, what
is the point of them?
And I think the issue with that, um, well,
so, so just to recap what we're saying,
we're saying like this whole thing
of should we be branded an SEO agency?
We're saying we're seeing an opportunity
there that clients are, um,
there's some weaknesses and
we'll get into those one by one.
Uh, starting with this like obsession
with like technical or onsite optimization,
like the site cleanup activities,
that's always prioritized, number one,
which we think is backwards.
But from our perspective, just
to complete that thought, why, why,
why would we want to be
branded as an SEO agency?
Number one, it's, I
think clients think of.
An SEO agency to get the
results that we're promising.
Because the real results
that we do is you don't hire,
grow and convert for like words on
your website, like for the blog posts.
And you hire us for rankings
for your most valuable keywords,
and the leads that come from
it generate pipeline, Right?
People say that. And
so that's what you hire.
And I think in, in most market earth
minds, like in-house CMO types or whatever,
heads of marketing, I think
based on observation,
they associate that with an SEO
agency's responsibility not a cause.
They, because they think
content can't get that.
So it's always like this like thing
where we have to convince them, Wait,
we do that too.
And a lot of 'em, this, even when they
hire us, sometimes a lot of 'em are like,
you know, blog thought leadership
and we're like, What?
Have you not worked with us for a while?
Like, we're like ranking
for your best keywords.
Like, are you kidding me?
Um, second kind of associated region
reason, and this is a little bit more
guesswork on my side, but
also based on evidence,
is I then think they value that more like
they value the SEO agency or vendor more
because in their mind that's their
responsibility is like ranking for these
important keywords.
And the blog and content agency is
sort of just like this kind of expendable
marketing thing that you
can't really tie ROI to.
And you're like, Yeah, we're
creating blog posts also,
and we're here constantly trying to
like reconvince them, remind them, No, no,
like our blog posts, Yes, they come and
they look and they smell like blog posts.
But the effect, like the end effect is
what you are thinking an SEO agency does,
is they're ranking for your most valuable
keywords and we're getting leads from it.
And yeah, a lot of our
clients buy into that.
Of course, that's how
we like, have a business,
but it still feels like an uphill battle.
And this whole thing made us be like,
Huh, what if we just call ourselves an SEO
agency since we're actually doing seo,
we just happen to be doing it primarily
through blog posts.
I wanted to back up and
say those two things.
Any comments?
Uh, no. Okay.
I mean, I, I agree with
everything you just said.
So, so then we pair that
with the opportunity.
So going back to what we were
just talking about is like,
then we look when we started looking
at what these SEO agencies are doing,
and we're like, Mm, not great .
And so going back to what we're talking
about, I think the number, the first,
I don't know if this is number one, but
like the first one we're talk about is this
obsession with this technical
seo, and here's my take on it.
Or like a zoomed outtake.
It's not that we're saying technical
SEO on page optimization.
What do we mean by that technical seo?
Like we can list things,
What is it like, you know,
first making sure the actual like
page site structure is appropriate.
That pages have like one H1 and
whatever that like, you know, What
Is one H one?
Well, sometimes there's pages that
Naman has found where there's two H one s
Oh, okay.
Sorry. Like in a blog
Format. I thought you were saying
one h one is like some lingo, some
Technical
Seo. Yeah. I was like, actually
I've never heard that one before.
. Okay, headers,
I only have a single H one title.
You know, title tags are appropriate,
blah, blah, blah.
And then like what
URL Structure duplicates?
Uh, I mean yeah, duplicate pages there.
4 0 4 pages.
Yeah. I don't know,
As
We've the initial, the housekeeping.
Yeah. And as we've experienced with clients
sometimes is the entire site randomly
No indexed all of a sudden
. Yeah.
So it's not that we're not
saying that's important,
but here's the argument in our view that
should be done in the service of ranking
for your most valuable keywords.
Meaning priority number one has to be
knowing what the heck those most valuable
keywords are.
Like actually having identified
them and saying,
we know what keywords we're targeting.
If you don't have like a very well defined
target keyword list of like not just
like, here's the 400 keywords that we
paid some keyword researcher to do, not that,
but like, here's like 30
or something like that,
50 keywords that we have carefully
deduced, if we rank for them,
it will bring us business.
Because in our minds, those target keywords
are like buying keywords and you can
mix into that keywords you want to own.
If you don't have that, what are,
what are you on site optimizing for?
Well, I, I think the importance here is
to distinguish the difference between what
those agencies are doing
versus how we think about it.
So in our mind, the technical
SEO is done at the very beginning.
So we do an audit for all of
our clients that we work with,
and the goal is just to find fixes that
will help improve the site so that when we
start producing pages or content that
we can rank faster and there's nothing
hindering our ability to rank.
Whereas a lot of these other agencies
are charging or recurring cost for technical
SEO fixes. That's like ongoing.
Whereas, and, and we're saying
the SEO audit can be done one time,
you can identify all, all the things
that need to be fixed, then you fix 'em,
and then you get working on starting
to rank for the keywords that you want to go
after.
And the onsite optimization
would only really matter.
Also, if you already have the pages
on your site or the keywords that you're,
you're already targeting on your website
and you're maybe updating pages to then
better match the intent of that page to
the SERP. But then when we're getting into
the details of what these companies
are charging for onsite optimization,
they're not even doing that.
They're, they're just like adding keywords
to the page or they're saying like,
Yeah, they're like sprinkling keywords
throughout the page and calling that onsite
optimization. They're not really looking
at each page through the lens of what is
the SERP telling us
we need for this page?
And then what content do we need to add?
How are we going to, weave in the
product on this page to help sell it?
Like none of that's being done because
a lot of the agencies don't even know enough
about the business to be able to
do that kind of deep thinking on it.
Yeah, I, I agree with you.
I, I feel like, so you were saying they
do this technical SEO some ongoing activity
and you and I are both baffled as to
what the heck they keep doing in month seven
of most of these sites I get, if you
have some site that has like a ton of pages
Yeah. If you're a large
e-commerce site or you,
you have like a marketplace
or something like that,
Or technical all the time.
Yeah. And you're, you're changing
your site all the time.
I a hundred percent get
it in that, in that case.
But in, in, I, I feel like me personally,
and having been on the client side,
a lot of these agencies are just taking
advantage of the fact that most clients
don't really have a lot
of expertise in seo.
So they pitch these things that sound
great in theory that really doesn't do
anything in practice, and they're
able to get a recurring fee from it.
And then you ask the client what's happening
and they just don't really know.
They're like, Oh yeah, this
agency's doing this stuff.
They send me a report every once
in a while showing my rankings.
Yeah. And like that's pretty much it.
That's the extent that
they know what's going on.
Yeah. And, and so then that's
number one on the technical seo.
The second thing you kind of touched
on, and that's what I was trying to say,
which is the biggest thing for me, which
is almost like a mental importance thing.
It's not the chronology
of when in time it happens.
Like we, we also do technical SEO at
that audit at the start of our engagements.
But that's not what I mean.
It's that mentally to us it comes in secondary
because the number one thing is like
what keywords are you trying to rank for?
And if you have not, and then you also
touched on this, which I'm gonna get to now,
and what page do you have pages on your
site dedicated and optimized like content
that actually has a shot at
ranking for those keywords.
If you haven't done that one and two,
then what the hell are you doing technical
SEO for? And while we're at it, I'm gonna
throw in link building into that camp for
us. Also, Link building is done in the
service for the purpose of moving up those
rankings when you've defined
your keywords you wanna rank for.
And number two, have content optimized
with a shot at ranking for them.
Otherwise, what are
you building links for?
And I think for this
Technical, that's another thing that
was frustrating talking to to different
prospects, is you find out they're spending
like 10 K a month on links and you're
like, Well, what are building for?
You don't even, you don't even have pages
on your site that are optimized to rank.
So like you're just building links
for the sake of building links.
And you ask the client, they're like,
Well, it helps my seo, but you're like,
it helps what? What seo?
Yeah. Yeah. Like you're, you don't have
any pages on your site that are even gonna
rank for anything. So what
are you building the links for?
Yeah. So everything's just backwards.
Yeah. And what I'm saying is even more
fundamental than having pages is they often
don't even have a target keyword
list that's beyond like two keywords.
You'd be like, Oh, we're an accounting
firm, or we're accounting software.
So like we're trying to rank
for accounting software.
You're like, That's it.
One keyword .
Like that's your whole seo.
Like what else?
You know? So, Okay.
So then number two, that content, so
assume you have the target keyword list or
whatever. I think this other weakness
that we've already touched on extensively,
but there's this other aspect of it
is like even if you had the target keyword
list, do you then have content, what
I keep saying with a shot at ranking for it?
What do I mean? It means
like in our minds.
For the best buying keywords, the most
valuable keywords, they're most valuable.
They're gonna be valuable
to other people too,
meaning other people are
trying to rank for it.
So you can't just like throw some keywords
on a landing page and hope you're gonna
get to the top few spots.
Side note, another key aspect
is like ranking position nine.
It doesn't get you that much.
From what we've seen from
a lead generation perspective,
Things spike when you're
in the top three spots.
So that's important.
Like if the SEO agencies is like, Look,
our we increased your organic traffic and
the overall rankings are up and your
average position is 12, you're like, Listen,
12 is not paying the bills.
You need like one, two,
and three in my mind.
Um, and in the evidence we've seen.
So to get those you need,
it's not just like, you know,
we threw some keywords onto your homepage
or your feature solution page cuz we're
trying to get it to rank for like accounting
software pricing or something like
that.
Like you need dedicated pieces where you
carefully think through the search intent
behind that one keyword.
This one page, in our case, a
blog post, but it can be any page,
is then dedicated to
ranking for that piece.
You've analyzed the SERP, you're
trying to fulfill the search rankings.
If you don't have that,
what are you doing?
What are you doing technical SEO for?
What are you doing link building for?
And that's not easy.
The second aspect of that is
then for those buying keywords,
those valuable keywords, you need
to then frankly do product copywriting,
which means in the post you need to be
able to sell the products and like write
deeply, understand the product,
sell the features and benefits,
differentiate it to competition.
Otherwise you just have some me too thing
that's not gonna rank and that's not easy
this step two.
But creating the content is not easy.
And so no wonder most SEO agencies
don't have the ability to,
the resources or whatever
to do this easily.
Even for us, training one
person to get to that level,
to write consistently these kinds of
like product copywriting articles that we do
for clients is a huge, huge undertaking.
And we spend a bunch of resources
training one person.
So that's my second point.
Yep.
Okay. No, no comments from Benji.
We're doing well. So, um, and then I
guess this is a, this is another point that,
um, is there, it it, when we've
seen SEO agencies pick these keywords,
and this is something that we don't
have to spend a long time on because like
everything else we've ever said at Grow
and Convert or written talks about this,
they do the same complaint that we
have had over content marketing agencies,
which is they prioritize
keywords by traffic.
They're looking at like these broad
Yeah. They're just not
looking at intent at all.
The way that they even pick
keywords is just backwards.
Like even even this example
of this SEO agency,
they looked at other competitors in the
space and chose keywords based off their
businesses and not the business that
they were trying to do SEO for which, and,
and then you ask the client
and they're like, Yeah,
we're creating pages for services we don't
even offer because the other competitor
did it. And they said, Well,
if the competitor has a page,
you should probably have
a page on this too.
It's like, what? I remember that.
It makes no sense.
Like none of this makes any sense.
Yeah, yeah, you're right.
And a lot of SEO agencies, that's key.
And you know what? The SEO tools,
God bless them, we use them.
I hope we don't upset them
by what I'm about to say.
They sort of encourage this because they
have like the like competitor analysis
tool or whatever.
So you put your competitors
URL in there and be like,
these are all the things they're ranking
for and everyone has that fomo and so
you're like,
But to be fair, I, I would say those are
helpful and the way that you can use those
is by looking at other
competitors that, you know,
offer a similar service
or have a similar product.
And, but you need to scan
through those keywords and,
and then identify the ones that
are high intent for your own business.
And the ones that make sense, I feel
like a lot of these people are just going
through these lists and, and adding everything
instead of like curating down the
list based on what your
product does well.
Yeah. I I um, I, I asked on Twitter,
and I haven't pulled this up,
but I asked on Twitter, like, if you were
hiring an SEO agency and you're in a SaaS
company or something, I think I said B2B
SaaS, what are you looking for them to do?
I feel like every response eventually
mentioned like, and grow pipeline,
like rank for stuff and grow pipeline,
grow leads, get leads, get qualified leads,
right? And I think what we're saying is
when SEO agencies do like pick keywords and
try to go after them, they're optimizing
for the thing that you see SEO folks
bragging about online all the time,
which is that traffic growth graph.
Look, we grew our client's traffic
from this number to that big number,
but the traffic growth, as we've said
a million times is not analogous to,
to leads. So that you can read any article
on our site and we've talked about this
a bunch. Um, and then
Should we recap everything?
So I, I think what we're saying is that.
We're, we're currently positioned
as a content marketing agency.
We almost, we feel like
that might be doing a,
a disservice because people think
that we only produce content,
but really the end goal or the results
of our service are to generate rankings for
your highest value keywords.
And what we're saying is that a lot
of these companies are hiring SEO agencies
thinking that that's the end
goal of those people's services.
But when we dig into what those companies
actually do, they're not, they're not,
they're not helping really
generate rankings.
They're either building links to random
parts of the site that don't make sense and
they don't have pages optimized for
the keywords they want to go after.
They're doing this ongoing,
technical SEO work,
they're doing this on page optimization,
which is still mysterious and most people
don't even know what that means.
And so we're saying since our end goal
for all of our client engagements is to help
companies rank for their
most valuable keywords,
are we doing ourselves a disservice by
not positioning ourselves as an SEO agency
since that's our end goal?
And all these SEO agencies are, are,
are able to get retainers that are our same
rate or way higher and they don't even
help the clients with that end goal in our
opinion. Yeah. So,
So if we were to position like that, here's
my like kind of sales pitch for it for
discussion's sake, is we could
say we are the SEO agency.
Like we're an SEO agency that will actually
pri first prioritize getting leads from
seo, not just traffic.
We, we know that resonates because that's
been our positioning on the content
agency side forever.
And that's worked really well
and clients resonate with that.
Then we say, and we will actually
methodically month by month
create pages on your site.
And I think it's not important
that they're blog posts really.
We can make that kind of like a detail
that's not the client's concern cuz who
cares? It could be a landing
page, we don't care.
We've done that before. But we'll create
pages on the site that rank for your,
these buying keywords that
generate leads one by one.
So we're not just gonna waste a bunch
of time doing some backend technical SEO site
stuff. We'll, we'll take care of
that and make sure that's in order,
but we're gonna actually check
off these keywords so that you know,
what you're buying from us then is rankings
and keywords and then they think of us
like that. Um, so, so that's
our positioning there.
Now I want to discuss or like present
to you possible challenges from an like
inside baseball operational standpoint.
On our side right now as
a content marketing agency,
we are responsible only for our blog
posts we produce and their results.
So if something developers release something
that breaks something on the site,
the homepage gets no indexed, just like
crazy weird stuff that happens on the
homepage or whatever, that's
not our responsibility.
Yeah. If we were their SEO agency, it
would be so that adds like operational burden
or whatever to us is like what
we're normally in our agency.
What's nice is we're just, we're
we're in, we have a repeatable process.
We do this three blog posts, but now we're
kind of have to also have this oversight
role where it's like, hey,
you guys are a SEO agency,
Like this random ranking we used to have
for the blah blah blah page got messed up
by some internal employee, but like,
you're the SEO agency, can you fix it?
What do you think about that?
Yeah, I I mean I think there's
easy ways to solve for that.
So I know we already have a tool that
scans the site and can let us know of any
errors. So I think it would just be,
I think we only have it running on a couple
sites, including our own.
So I think it would just be expanding
that tool to other sites and I think it's
just something that we have
to check for on an ongoing basis.
I I don't think that
that's a huge problem.
I agree. I first, I was like, Oh,
I don't know if I want that because it's
something very nice about the fact,
like operationally in our business,
like all of our team, they know what's
their responsibility and it's the blog posts
we produce and we have a rhythm to it.
And, and I was like, I don't
know if we wanna add that,
but I had your reaction too.
I was like, is that that hard?
Like again, we're not saying we're gonna
reposition to be an SEO agency for those,
for example, giant e-commerce
sites or marketplaces with like 10,
000 user generated pages or like listing
pages for different products or different
whatever. And we're managing all that,
that there are SEO agencies that do that.
That's more what people call
programmatic seo, right?
Where you're not manually optimizing
each page, you have to kind of do it in a
programmatic way.
Right. Um, so for a lot of our clients,
which are like have these static marketing
sites, whether it's, you know, like, uh,
an IT service provider, a B2B
SaaS company, some other whatever,
it's not that much.
So I'm okay with that. Here's the
flip side, positive of that though,
sometimes we in our work have been
like, Ooh, this keyword would be perfect.
And then we're like, Oh,
This random landing page or something,
or their homepage is ranking five or six or
seven for that keyword.
We've been like, Well, that's
not really our responsibility.
Yeah. Like we can't, it doesn't make
sense to write a blog post going after it,
but like, also it's not part of our engagement
to like optimize their homepage now.
It would be, And that's actually like
really low hanging fruit where we'd be like,
Yeah, we know how to, We could probably,
we could almost definitely,
if something's ranking six
or seven where it's like,
you're kind of there but you're
not getting the bulk of the results,
we could get it to top three
and then all of a sudden, like,
that's that's great for the client.
Yeah.
It's a huge, it's a huge
win right from the beginning.
Yeah.
Yeah. I, I agree.
That is a positive.
And then the second.
Okay, so that's the operational kind
of potential hiccup or, or challenge.
The second challenge
is a sales challenge.
And I mentioned to you before
we started recording,
and I wanna get your thoughts
on this right now.
We do, because we've built a reputation
over five, six, whatever years.
Um, , I just like,
we're like old enough,
I don't really remember when
we started and, uh, of being,
I didn't have facial hair,
that's how long it's been.
bet she hasn't shaved since
the start of grow and convert,
and that's how much we've grown.
Um, people come to us when they
need like a content agency.
Like people have just been following
us for a while or whatever,
including some like decent brand name
type clients, hopefully that, you know,
will be closing soon.
And so that may not happen.
Like I just think there's, without being
able to say too much of the inner workings
of like conversations and whatever
we're having, but, you know, is,
I can say to the audience,
there are companies, people,
clients that have followed us for a while,
they know that we're a content agency
and for whatever reason, internal expertise,
whatever, they don't have a need for
an SEO agency.
But they may, they know that the, like
writing the blog post part that I talked
about being hard, they know it's hard.
They buy into, it's hard.
They know that product copywriting
in the blog post is hard.
And so when they need a content
agency, they come to us now.
So one of my fears is if we rebrand
or reposition as an SEO agency,
will we still get that business?
Or will people that need content, even
if they buy in that the content should have
an SEO purpose go to some
other content agency?
And not us.
I, I'm not as worried about that because
I feel like that's our h our history
already. So we've already branded
ourselves as people that do this.
And so even if we switched
towards more of an SEO focus,
I feel like a lot of the people still
know us to produce these articles.
And I don't think it's really
gonna take away from that.
Uh, I, I think on the SEO side, it would
only help because I think people don't
really view us as an SEO agency.
And I, and I, I think that might just
be a function of our headline right now.
And just the way that we position ourselves,
it's very much focused on blog and
content, but I feel like
maybe people have been,
who are following us in the first
few years might only think of us, uh,
to produce content and really might not
realize how much we focus on generating
rankings.
And so I think that there's an opportunity
to kind of bridge that gap.
Like the way that I think about it
is we generate rankings through content,
and it can be content on your blog or
it can be content on a page, but either way,
no matter how, how you
approach it, whatever,
attacking whatever keyword
in like a blog or a page, it,
it's the same thing for us.
We, we learn about the company,
we learn about their value props.
We're weaving in sales copy into either
of these pages and we're using these pages
to go after a keyword and
the end result is rankings.
And so again, I think that
more aligns with the SEO side,
or at least how people think about seo,
uh, even more so than I think a lot of the
agencies and the services
they offer right now.
Yeah. Just to read, I mean, I guess
I could, for folks watching on YouTube,
we can share the screen, but I'll read
it out loud for folks listening on the
podcast. Um, our homepage headline
that Benji's referring to right now says,
most blogs don't generate real business.
We fix that side note, we're very
proud of that somewhat, right?
And that's worked for us so far.
But most blogs don't
generate real business.
We fix that. So that means
we work on your blog and most
People Yeah, it's just
super focused on the blog.
It, it has nothing to do
about generating rankings.
And I think that that might be doing us
to disservice because there's nothing here
that indicates we can help you rank
for your most valuable keywords.
We've done this consistently.
We drive conversions that way.
And so maybe someone comes to the
website and they're like, I don't,
I don't need help with my blog.
But then if we said, we help you generate
rankings, they're like, Oh, that,
that actually appeals to me.
Yeah. And then the, the sub-headline,
um, for folks listenings then adds to that by
saying, we're a content marketing agency
that drives conversions and qualified
traffic for B2B and B2C businesses.
Now the counterpoint is of course,
and what we have going for us is our
foundational process that a lot of people
know us for is called Pain Point SEO.
Right? People say pain
point SEO , so that's good.
And this would expand on that.
But what I was gonna say
Is, I think the argument I would make
against that though is that Pain Point SEO
came up, what, three or four years ago
and the site hasn't changed to kind of map
how much we've changed our own
process and our own service.
So I would say even when we,
we came up with that headline,
we were still conversion focused, but
I don't think we leaned as heavily as we knew
do now into the SEO side of things.
And we haven't really changed
the positioning to adjust for that.
And I would say now the way that we think
about content strategy is almost purely
SEO focused. It, it's what keywords can
we go after that will generate the most
conversions for the company and
let's prioritize all those first.
And I, and I think that that positioning
is still like a legacy of like the
beginnings of our business and it it
is not representative of our current work.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
If people are wondering and haven't
followed us for a while, like, well,
this all makes sense, so why the
hell do you guys have a headline?
It says, most blogs don't generate real
business because we used to just produce
content. We actually started
with no SEO angle.
Um, we were like, Yeah,
that's not what we do.
We would write these like
stories and promote them.
That's its whole story.
But like, and we've written about it,
you can find that on our blog or if you
comment on YouTube or wherever on
our email list, we'll, we'll send,
we'll gladly send you those articles.
But like, we used to just write all these
stories and do this stuff for traffic.
And, and as a million articles on our
site have said like, slowly we found, oh,
when we rank for these buying terms,
the clients get a bajillion more leads.
Like it's like 300% more,
um, than if we don't.
So, okay, let me recap.
I I I think my solution to this though
is we keep the word content kind of in
there. Yeah. So like the, the phrasing
I have in my head right now is something
like, we're a content focused SEO agency,
or we're a content first SEO agency.
I don't know which one
or whether it it matters.
Um, but then it has both.
So if you need content, you
can still go to grow and convert.
And like you said, we have that legacy
reputation there, which it helps,
but then it's like we're,
they're an SEO agency,
so then they don't have to waste their
budget on other SEO agencies that just do
all this like planning.
But nothing happens.
And I think that's the part of the sales
pitch on the SEO agency branding that gets
me really excited is that
we can just say almost,
almost like what has your SEO
agency like done for you though?
Like, what's the results?
Because I just, to me,
it makes a lot of sense.
And I had a tweet about this, uh, a couple
weeks ago too of like SEO in a tweet.
It's like, know what keywords
your customers are.
Look, you know, Googling when they're
looking for a product like yours,
create pieces that directly fulfill that
intent and then link build if you need to.
Right? Or like make sure
some people link to it.
And so it's like if they're,
and we can just say,
if you're wasting your time doing all
this like tech SEO background or just general
link-building to increase DR, but you
don't know those terms that are gonna bring
you leads, you haven't like gotten consensus
on that or even worked on that hard or
thought about it like that.
And then second, if you don't have
content that's really, really made,
like carefully made to rank for those
terms, then what is your SEO agency doing for
you? Like, that's how we think of it.
And we go keyword by keyword and
we are like, Here is your thing.
And then we can sell by like rankings,
which is the business result.
You want 30 rankings a year,
it's our base package.
You want 60 rankings a year, whatever.
I don't know. I mean now I'm
kind of like pontificating.
So that has me excited.
Any other final thoughts?
No, I I, I agree on the selling
the value of the rankings.
I, I think that's, that's an advantage.
Like if, if I think about how most people
try to price or think about the value of
content they're thinking on
a per article per month basis.
And it's frustrating because
yeah, because we don't,
we don't care about any of that stuff.
But if you change that to, how much
value is it to rank for 30 of your highest
value keywords?
So the keywords that you're already Yeah,
the keywords that you're already spending
Google ads money on.
If we could help you rank for those
same keywords and own those organically,
what would that be worth
to your business?
I think that's the difference
in the positioning of the, the content
marketing agency versus the SEO agency.
That's the, that's the frame of mind
which someone hires an SEO agency.
And the other, and the frame of mind,
which someone hires a content
marketing agency is, well,
if I was to produce three articles
a month in house, how much would it cost?
They're not even thinking
about, what do I get for that?
Or like, what are the results?
This is gonna drive me.
They're like, Yeah, well this, this
is so much, it's just four articles.
So like, I'm paying, I don't know,
a thousand, $2,000 per article, but like,
I don't, I don't get what
this is gonna do for me.
Whereas it's very clear when
an SEO agency comes in and says,
I'm gonna help you rank for
this one very high value keyword.
Like a business would be like, Yeah,
I would pay like 50 grand to do that.
Yeah, yeah.
That you're right.
That now we can't close because now
you're gonna get me riled up again.
Um, and people are gonna be like, Oh,
I love that part where Devesh ranted
like, you should be on,
on all our zoom calls.
Cause I ran a lot is what drives me crazy
about what you said is that what I wanna
do is be like, okay, you can get it done
cheaper, but is that article gonna work?
Like I can get some rando to write
an article for $20, but will it rank?
And that that's when we
switch it to rankings.
Then they're not thinking, What,
how much could I get that article for?
They're thinking, I don't know how
the hell to rank for 30 of our most like,
best buying intent keywords.
That sounds like magic to them.
Cuz they're like, I don't
know how to rank for them.
And then they're we're like,
We'll get you those rankings.
You're buying a business result.
This is the article
thing drives me crazy.
They're like, Well, in-house
we can produce these articles.
I'm like, Your in-house writers, I'm
sorry, are not going to rank for them.
Their article and our article for
the same keyword are not equivalent.
Like ours will rank
and ours will convert.
And it's like we spend so much time and
effort optimizing our process and working
tirelessly to train our team
to have to be able to do that.
That ability is not easy.
Our best clients understand that and
they like get that and they respect that and
then it's what they pay for.
But I agree with you absolutely
that if we just flip it and,
and just directly sell the end product,
the ranking, then people would be like,
Oh yeah, yeah. I don't
know how to rank for that.
We're not ranking for it now.
So clearly we haven't been able to do it.
I, I think that there's two things that
we haven't really been selling in our
business that would increase
the perceived value.
So one is that ranking aspect and just
really positioning around generate rankings.
The other is the product copywriting
and sales copywriting.
Because businesses will spend thousands
of dollars a month having someone come in
and rewrite pages on their website to
help try to sell the product and position the
product well.
And we already do that as
part of our service anyway.
So every page that we created is weaving
the sales messaging into the page.
And to do that, you have to have a, a
really good understanding of the business,
why people buy it, all,
all those aspects.
And so people will hire a product copywriter,
they will hire an SEO agency,
they'll hire a content marketing agency.
And essentially what I'm saying is we
can take the place of all three of those
roles with one agency because this
is already the service that we offer.
Yeah. We help you generate rankings.
We do the product copywriting essentially
in the form of blog posts and we produce
content. And so, and
I think of those three, what people value
the least is the blog content writing
,
Right?
Yeah, I would
Agree. Seo, what you said seo, you
said product or like, kind of like
Product copywriting.
Yeah. Yeah.
And then like blog copywriting, blog
easily is valued the least because people
don't use the blog the way we use it.
So they're like, that's not hard.
It's just like this place,
it's just like this fill,
Most people think of the blog as this
like filler top of the funnel nonsense.
And so when we associate
our brand with that,
we have to do all this convincing
work to be like, Oh, but the,
our blog post is not equivalent to
the way you thought about the blog post.
It actually gets all these results.
It's equivalent to this. We're
like, well, why are we doing that?
Why don't we just brand ourselves as
the thing that they already value that we
already do really well? , Like
we already write product copy really well.
We already do SEO really well.
Like, just say we do that and then they
don't have to waste budget on nonsense.
And, and then they like value us.
We're
All along. I've,
I've been in a company where they've hired
a copywriter to redo the entire website
and those projects are like a hundred,
a hundred thousand, $200,000.
And nothing ever gets done.
Like they get into the project.
And What do you mean?
They, they, like the agency comes in,
they don't understand the nuances of the
business. They start writing
the pages, the company hates it.
They're like, they pitch this whole
like SEO optimization technical audit.
Like it's just always done poorly.
I, I don't know, I've, I've never been
in an agency where a company has done a
website redesign or redoing pages through
an agency vendor and like left being
happy. But it's, it's always too much
work for the company to do on their own.
It's like they don't like,
Yeah, it's a challenge.
I'll be honest though, like that
part does operationally scare me.
Like, cuz once,
No, I don't want get, I
don't want get into that.
But essentially where I
was going is I think the,
the product copywriting aspect is really
challenging and companies value that very
highly and it's something that we
already do as part of the service.
And so I I, again, I think we just
need to, I we need to, Yeah, we are.
I
Think we're pretty good at it. Sorry for
talking over you, like, but this evidence,
we've had clients say in
what kickoff calls the,
the act of doing our kickoff calls and
the discussion that ensues because of the
questions we ask about who
really is your best customer?
What really is your differentiator?
And we like poke in and
in and in and we're like,
But these other competitors also do that.
So that's not really
a differentiator, right?
Like, what really is your differentiator?
And these, like, sometimes debates
internally on the client side happen,
they've told us, Wow, this was actually
really clarifying and eye-opening.
Like, thank you guys.
And that's just some like
side part of our business.
Like they're not buying that.
It just happens to be like how we start.
Or I've had, um, I, I remember two interviews
for blog posts with a particular like
large enterprise B2B type software client
where like product managers or folks that
should have a really good grasp on the
value of a particular feature, whatever,
explained it to us.
And I was like, Okay, okay, hold on.
And asking a bunch of questions, asking
a bunch of questions is really complicated.
And I said, Let me just
play this back to you.
What you're saying is, and I gave like
the value proposition that normally people
do X and the other options only
let you do this other thing.
But with you guys, they can
do Y and that has these benefits.
Is that, am I hearing you right?
And I've literally heard
them say like, Wow, yes.
That's like, Can you
like write that down?
Like, I haven't heard it, I have not
articulated it like that or whatever.
And I know that sounds very egotistical
for me to say it is a true story.
No, it's,
It's because companies like internally,
you have this way of talking about yourself
and your own product and you try
to complicate things because I,
if you simplify it, you're like, Oh,
but that doesn't really speak to every,
the breadth of what we do.
So if you try to distill it
down to one sentence and say,
this is what we're best at.
Someone in the company will be like,
like a salesperson, a marketing person,
Well what about this feature?
What about this thing and all
these other things that we do?
This, this doesn't describe
everything that we do.
So then what happens is everyone
tries to overcomplicate it.
So they, they throw all these features
and all these value props into this sentence
and it ends up being like, we're
an AI SaaS product that does X, y,
Z and that's why you should buy it.
And you read it and you're just like,
I don't even understand what this product
does. And so I almost feel like it's
better to explain everything about your
product to a third party and then
the third party simplifies it for you.
Because I, I do think even we get in
the trap of like what we're talking about
right now, it'd be, it'd be like if we
said we're a content marketing agency that
does, gets you rankings, tries to
write product copy and all that kind of,
and technical SEO and all this stuff.
And that was our headline.
It's like you try to overcom,
you try to like overcomplicate it.
But I think Yeah, that's
A great point's, a great point.
We, we we, And if you're listening
and you're saying, Well, aren't you guys,
didn't you guys literally say
that what Benji means is Yes.
When
You, Now we have to Well, I was
just gonna say, when when we go,
when we go to write our headline
messaging, if we decide to,
to go this route and change it, we'll
have to think of what is the correct message
that distills everything that we
do to just like one single value prop.
Like what is, what is the main
thing that people care about.
And use that instead of trying to overcomplicate
things and bring everything that
we've talked about into our messaging.
Because at the end of the day, I think
what we're saying is companies value
rankings and they'll pay for rankings,
and that's really what we do.
So maybe the language that we end up
using has to really focus on that as opposed
to trying to weave the sales messaging,
the content and all this other stuff into
it. Um, and yeah, I think that's, if there's
a takeaway when you're thinking about
your own positioning or messaging on
your website, I think that's kind of how I
would think about it.
Yeah, the, the distilling
is, um, really important.
But anyway, that, that was
a, a big rabbit hole to say.
Um, where, where it started is that product
copywriting piece is also something
that I think a lot of marketers naturally
get is difficult and they value.
Um, and all of this is like the thing
they're valuing the least is blog content.
And right now we've associated our
brand with it and we've done okay.
We've done Okay. Yeah,
I was gonna say like,
To, to our credit, we've still grown
a pretty good business, but I think now,
now thinking about taking it to the next
level and how do we really expand from
here? Either expand in terms of pricing,
expand in terms of the clients that we're
able to attract, expand in terms
of just pure number of clients.
The question is just do we need to change
our positioning and maybe maybe we do
this and end up watching this
video again and we realize No.
Um, but I think it's something interesting
to think about just hearing these
conversations and seeing what
other people are are doing.
I think even in the very
beginning of our agency,
like how we came up with the current
positioning was seeing what other content
agencies were doing and realizing that
they had no focus on results and all they
cared about was output, whether it was
number of words or just number of articles
per month.
Yeah. And none of the strategic thinking
was really brought into producing those
pieces. And so when we created
the current positioning, it was,
let's create an agency that focuses on
results and solves the problems that most of
these companies care about, which is
when they hire a content marketing agency,
they're, the end goal is not, can
I just get four articles a month?
They're like, I want to generate traffic
and conversions from the articles that I'm
producing. And I think
what we're saying here now,
if we look at the whole SEO landscape
and look at the opportunity or the gap that
you can potentially solve in the market,
it is all these other agencies that
position themselves as SEO are mainly
focusing on just like basic things that we
think are just kind of check boxes.
So it's like the technical seo.
Yeah, the technical SEO audit.
It is like the onsite optimization.
Again, that can mean a lot
of things to different people,
but we're saying what we're saying is,
and, and they're not able to generate a lot
of good results from
any of those two things.
It's kind of just like the
basic housekeeping stuff.
And so we're saying if we can position
our ourselves as the company that can help
you get new rankings and or help improve
existing rankings for pages that you
already have on your site, and we can
show and we can actually get those results
for the agency, we think that that would
better position ourselves for the future.
Yeah. It, it would differentiate
us and, uh,
surprise it actually is more useful for
the client instead of wasting your money on
SEO activities like SEO, busy work.
It's like we start with the end result.
Like do you side note, and
I was gonna say outcomes versus outputs,
like going back to our last video, it's,
it's the same concept.
Like people will hire these agencies
just to show that they're doing SEO work.
Yeah. Oh, this person's doing
like 20, 30 hours of work here.
They have, they gave me these
Excel spreadsheets, like, Yeah,
it looks like they're doing stuff.
Oh, rankings are kind of moving, but
it's like your end goal is to get, Yeah.
Your end goal is to get these
certain keywords to rank.
Is the SEO agency doing that?
If not, you're not really
hitting your goal,
You're just showing that
you're doing busy work.
And, and so it, it, it kind of
aligns with everything that we were saying
last time. Like what we care
about is getting that outcome,
aligning the outcome with
what the business wants.
Yeah. And, and by the way, we've
used this and you can use this and,
and we'll continue to use as clients to
disqualify clients that probably shouldn't
use SEO as a channel.
Because if you start with the outcomes
and you say thing number one,
we need to see how many keywords are there
that logically looking at this, we all,
us and the client can agree,
will generate business.
And for some businesses
it's like there's three,
like it's some obscure thing that
like most people aren't searching for.
And you're like, there's literally
like three to five keywords for you.
You don't need to hire us,
like just do this thing.
Like take our course, produce five pages,
one for each of those keywords and call
it a day. Versus, I don't wanna call
other agencies dishonest or whatever,
but like, if you're just,
if you're just there to like,
take any business that comes your way,
a lot of these clients, like you said,
they don't, that they're not,
and they're not SEO experts.
They don't know. So they're just
think like, well, like, I don't know.
My friend has this business and SEO
worked for him, so like, I gotta do seo.
They'll be like, Yeah, sure, we're
gonna start with the audit of your site.
It's like they have a
hammer and that's a nail.
And so they're just like,
Well, this is what we do.
And so like, we're gonna audit your site.
We're gonna look at this thing. And look,
traffic is growing up and you're like,
traffic is going up for what?
Keywords? There's only three keywords
that anyone look at Google for this product.
It shouldn't even be investing
this much in seo.
And we're honest enough to be
like, This doesn't make sense.
That reminds me one last thing.
They, they use like overall
organic traffic.
Like they don't break out branded search.
Oh my god. Or anything like that.
So they're like, Oh look, we're doing
all this onsite activity and organic
traffic's going up and you like dig into
it and it's all like branded keywords that
Yeah. It's like what?
It's just we got you to rank higher
when people Google your brand name.
Congratulations,
. It's, it's just
like crazy stuff like that.
It's all the branded pages that are
growing in organic traffic and there's no
non-branded search that's
bringing in anyone.
So you're like, What
is the benefit to this?
But again, I think it's just a function
of SEO seems very complicated from an
outsider's perspective. I remember that's
why we were super hesitant to get into
it. Yeah. When you, when you
think about it, it's like seo.
It's just like there's all these
factors that play into it.
It's like, I don't know,
Google's algorithm.
So it just seems so complicated.
And I think that enables certain agencies
or consultants to take advantage of the,
the, the mismatch in knowledge
about the space.
And so people will sell things that don't
really move the needle or aren't that
important. And now getting into it, we
realize it's a lot simpler than it seems
from the outside.
You just need to focus on doing
the right things and doing those Well,
Yeah. As long as you're
not one of those mega sites.
And it's another one of those instances
that you see in the business world where
people take practices
from enterprise size.
You know, people be like, Well, Apple
brands in this way, so I'm going to,
And you're like, there's literally
like three, you have three customers.
Like why are you doing
things the way Apple does?
Like, what are you talking about?
You know? Yes. Like, not, not to say
that there's no analogies from there,
but it's like, if you're taking
stuff from like the, the seo,
It's the, it's the vc, it's the VC world.
It's like people look at what an Airbnb
has done or a Facebook has done and they're
like, Look, this company did this
marketing practice, we should do it too.
And it's like, Yeah, but you're a bootstrap
business that's making a million and
you're trying to copy what
a funded startup has done.
Yeah. Over the last 10 years.
Well,
This is like if Airbnb, how many
listing pages does Airbnb have?
Like a bajillion, I don't even know.
I can't count that high.
So, of course, the way they're gonna
do SEO isn't just like, you know,
all those technical aspects and
like meta tags and programmatic seo,
like that matters a lot because one
by one stuff doesn't make sense for them.
If your website has 10 pages,
what the, what are you doing?
Like that doesn't apply.
It's not a, it's a different game.
You have 30 target keywords that would
transform your business and transform
organic as a channel for you.
If you ranked number one for all
30 of them, you can do 31 by one.
Right? But you can't optimize
Airbnb site one by one,
cuz they have a million
listing pages or whatever.
That's the difference.
And so you need to apply it in that way.
But anyway, this has
been a fun conversation.
It has.
Um, if you are listening, again, we're
very curious to get feedback on this.
This is not something
we're for sure doing.
Obviously this conversation is, you
can tell from the tone of it, we're,
we're kind of excited about this
and so we're leaning towards it.
But we love to get feedback from people.
So you can reply on YouTube, reply
on Twitter, reply to our email list, um,
or email Devesh or Benji.
What we wanna know is do our arguments
make sense or are there holes in it that we
haven't really thought
of? Um, I'd be curious.