One of the most essential ingredients to success in business and life is effective communication.
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Matt Abrahams: Successful
negotiation is not about winning.
It's about building
long-term relationships.
My name is Matt Abrahams.
I teach Strategic Communication at
Stanford Graduate School of Business.
Welcome to Think Fast
Talk Smart, the podcast.
Today I look forward to speaking
with my friend Stan Christensen.
Stan is a professional negotiator who
has both practiced and taught negotiation
for his entire career, and he teaches a
very popular Stanford negotiation course.
Additionally, Stan is the host
of the very informative All
Things Negotiation podcast.
Well, welcome Stan.
I thoroughly enjoyed being on your
show and I'm glad you're here.
Thanks for being here.
Stan Christensen: Thanks for inviting me.
Matt Abrahams: Excellent.
Shall we get started?
Stan Christensen: We should do it.
Matt Abrahams: Alright.
If you think about it, we are
always negotiating, sometimes
formally and many times informally.
How do you define negotiation and what
makes for success in a negotiation?
Stan Christensen: It's a great question.
I define negotiation as any
attempt to persuade or influence
another party, which is very broad.
In terms of the second part of your
question, how do you define success?
Most people think of
negotiation statically.
It's you and I, there's a fixed pie.
We're trying to get more for ourself
and less for the other party.
When in reality, probably 95% of
the negotiations you're gonna do are
gonna be with people you see again.
So I define success as, are
you contributing to the value
of the long-term relationship?
Matt Abrahams: Yeah, and I think that's
really important because you can do
some things to better your position in a
negotiation that might not be bettering
your future interaction with the person.
And so we really need to be thinking
about not just what's happening in
the moment, but its consequences.
I think about as I was raising my kids,
there were lots of things that I chose
not to really negotiate because I knew
we would have future conversations.
So I think that's an important
way to look at negotiation.
Like me, you teach Stanford students and
your students really enjoy your class.
What are two or three key things
you hope your students take away
from your content on negotiation?
Stan Christensen: Yeah.
The first thing is just awareness
that they're negotiating all the time.
So the very first week of class, I have
them keep track of the negotiations
that they engage in throughout the week.
And it's probably a hundred,
if they're honest about it.
And number two, I try to help them be
effective, negotiating in the context
they're most likely to negotiate in.
Those tend to be roommates, uh,
romantic partners, employers,
potential employers, parents.
And so if they come away from the
class more confident that they can do
those things, that's a success for me.
Matt Abrahams: So it sounds like awareness
and confidence in the ability to do it.
And I like that idea of reflecting.
You know, we communicate all the time.
Not all communication is negotiation,
although much of it is, taking
the time to say, what am I doing?
What do they look like?
And maybe some of your students
identify patterns and you can
help them better understand what's
working and what's not working.
I think that's really helpful.
I know one of the things you teach,
which I believe personally is really
important in all communication,
but you teach listening.
Why is listening part of negotiation
curriculum and can you share some
of the best practices you teach
your students about listening and
how it applies to negotiation?
Stan Christensen: Listening
is more than a nice to have.
It's essential.
One of the things that I say about
listening is you need to think about what
you're listening for in the negotiation.
Think about questions you might have
that might elicit things that make
you question some of your assumptions.
I'll give you a recent example.
I was visiting a family friend
in a retirement community and the
family wanted to move her from the
first floor to the second floor.
She was resisting tremendously.
They assumed she didn't
like the smaller room.
They assumed she didn't like the stairs.
It was really a lot of bickering, and
they came in and said, Stan, you know,
you're a good friend of the family.
Can you help us with this situation?
When I asked her, what are the real
reasons that you're afraid to move?
She said, I'm worried that I'm
gonna lose my nurse because she's
the nurse on the first floor and
I don't want to change nurses.
And so I simply said to the director
of the facility, what if we had that
nurse stay with her and have the nurse
travel rather than her get someone new?
And they said, that'd be fine.
And she said, that'd be fine.
And so we solved the problem and that was
based on listening to her real concerns.
Matt Abrahams: What I find so interesting
about what you just said is listening is
equipping you to ask the right questions.
And I don't often think of
negotiation as question asking.
I think of it as asserting.
Talk to me about how questioning
inquiry, thinking about the other person,
plays out when you're negotiating.
Stan Christensen: Well, you know,
we have classes in public speaking.
What we probably should do is have
a class in public listening, because
listening is probably, should be
more than half of the conversation.
If you listen, it's not just to be a
moral person or be a friendly person,
it's because it's gonna equip you to
come up with solutions that expand
the pie, as we talked about before.
And so it's a persuasive element to
listen as opposed to a nice to have.
Matt Abrahams: I really think that's
important for everybody to think
about when it comes to negotiation.
I tend to look at negotiation as something
where I want to win or have my point
of view dominate in that conversation.
And what I'm hearing you say is
before you negotiate, you actually
have to listen and then ask questions
to best understand what's important.
And the example you gave, I wouldn't
have thought that the thing that was
preventing that move was something
external to the person who was
having to be moved, but it was.
And so by asking the questions,
I guess it helps you focus in on
where you have that negotiation.
Stan Christensen: Yeah.
A lot of my students show up to my
class hoping they're gonna learn
how to win, and a lot of them sign
up because it's called negotiation.
That sounds sexy.
What I teach them is
relationship management.
Now, if I called the class, not
negotiation, but relationship management,
I think I get a lot fewer kids.
So I use a little bit of a smoke screen
there and teach relationship management.
Matt Abrahams: One of the big ways
we manage relationships is through
the negotiation, the influence that
we have, but you have to really
understand who you're talking
to and what's important to them.
My wife and I will often have
negotiations, when in fact we probably
didn't need to, because we didn't
appreciate each other's perspective.
The example I always give is if we
wanna go out to dinner, and she says,
Hey, let's go out to Mexican food.
And I say, no, let's do Italian food.
That could be a negotiation.
But when we ask each other how important
is it, for me it's not that important.
And for her it's very important.
Then we don't have to, and that
helps us manage our relationship.
So I like this idea of listening
and inquiry, but it does bring
up the question though, often in
negotiation, emotion plays out.
You're very passionate about
the topic you're advocating for.
You might get angry because
somebody isn't going along.
How do you deal with emotion
in these kind of situations?
Stan Christensen: It's a
great and common question.
The first piece is to be
aware of your emotions.
Let's just take one of the
examples you brought up, anger.
Have you ever been in an argument with
your wife towards the end of the day
where you might be going to bed angry,
but you still try to work it out?
Has that ever happened
to you in your marriage?
Matt Abrahams: I wish I could say
no, but it, yes, it does happen.
Stan Christensen: And one of the pieces
of advice you hear, I heard before I
got married, is never go to bed angry.
You couldn't give people
worse marital advice.
Often the best thing to do if you're
feeling angry is to pause, and so you
know when cooler heads prevail, maybe the
next morning after a good night's sleep.
And so when you're feeling emotionally
hijacked, maybe a little bit out of
control, the sophisticated negotiator
hits the pause button and returns
when cooler heads can prevail.
Matt Abrahams: Right.
So I think it's first recognizing
the emotion and then giving
yourself permission to take that
pause and find perhaps an outlet.
Write it down, talk to somebody
about it, and then come back to it.
Does emotion though play a role?
I can imagine that if I bring
a level of intensity, passion,
it could help me actually show
that this is important to me.
Stan Christensen: Yeah.
You don't wanna think
about emotion tactically.
What you wanna do is be as
genuine and be yourself.
People that use tactics and try to act
like they're upset when they're not upset,
we tend not to be very good at lying
about our emotions.
And so what I think
Stan Christensen: you wanna
do is be emotionally centered.
What I often recommend to people
is before you enter a important
negotiation, go and just wherever
the quiet place is for you, and pause
and think about what am I feeling?
What am I bringing?
Do I need to shift gears in my emotion?
Way too many people try to plow through
negative emotions, whether they're hurt
or sad or angry, or feeling melancholy.
They just approach it and try to drive in.
It's just like if you had too much
to drink, you probably shouldn't
jump in that car and drive.
You shouldn't be an emotional
drunk driver in negotiation.
Matt Abrahams: That's a really
appropriate metaphor that I think
can really help us remind ourselves
that we need to be centered.
And if we are in a place that's not going
to lead to, not just the negotiation,
but the future relationship the way
we want it to, we need to address it.
I am curious about how we show up
in terms of our presence, what we
do with our body and our voice.
Does this have implications
for negotiation?
How you physically show up?
Stan Christensen: It absolutely does.
A modern topic related to this is distant
negotiations, whether it's Zoom or Google
Meet, and I always recommend to people, if
at all possible, meet live and in person
because those nuances of body language.
And not only that.
It's much easier to create small
talk if you're live in person.
I find that when I'm on a Zoom
meeting or any type of negotiation,
it's get down to the business,
and so we miss the subtleties.
We miss the nuance.
Matt Abrahams: I've heard across
several of your answers this notion
of connection before you do the
negotiation, with yourself, your
emotions, where are you, help regulate
that, but then connect with others.
Given that in a negotiation, you're
trying to assert a particular point
of view or position, how do you
balance, Hey, I'm a nice person.
I want you to like me.
I want this relationship to continue,
but I also need this to get done or
want this to get done or see this
as the right way of doing things.
I agree connection is important,
but how do you thread that needle?
That's a tough thing I would think.
Stan Christensen: Number one, I
would question the assumption that
you need to assert in a negotiation.
If I come to a negotiation with
some questions that might change
some of the assumptions I came with,
I might wanna assert or problem
solve or create options that are
different than the thing I came with.
And so in every negotiation, you are
my teacher and I can learn things
that help us both work together to
expand the pie rather than advocating.
The reason that attorneys often aren't
very good at negotiation, and I don't
wanna overgeneralize, but what are
attorneys trained at doing mostly?
They're advocates for their clients.
How good are attorneys
at joint problem solving?
Let's roll up our sleeves.
Let's figure out a structure that works
for both sides and rewards the long-term
relationship, which is, again, our goal.
Attorneys aren't very good at that.
Matt Abrahams: Interesting.
You said something there that
I want to double down on.
We had Michele Gelfand on, Michele
teaches at the business school with me.
She likes to talk about this
notion of minding your metaphors.
The metaphor you approach any
communicative act frames how you do it.
So if I see a negotiation as a battle,
I'm going to approach it very differently
than the metaphor you used, which I
really liked, is the person you're
negotiating with or the people you're
negotiating with are your teachers.
And if they're your teachers, that
means one, you're both working to learn,
they're to teach and you to learn.
That there's a collaboration
that's inherent in that.
I really like that approach.
Part of that then is the
questions that we bring and ask.
So I'm wondering, have you found
in your own experience, and do you
teach, I can imagine how I frame the
position that I have or the issue
we're negotiating really matters.
If I frame it as a question, is that
different than framing it as an assertion?
What does framing mean for this?
Stan Christensen: So let's
think of an example of framing.
Let's say that I come to you, Matt,
and we've had some tension in our
relationship, and I say, Matt,
I'd like to bring up something
very difficult with you today.
How does that make you feel?
Matt Abrahams: Concerned.
I'm taken aback.
Stan Christensen: You're defensive.
Exactly.
And that's 99% of people.
Now let's just change
the frame a little bit.
Matt, look, there's something I've
been meaning to bring up with you.
I've had a hard time bringing it up.
I've sought counsel from some of
my friends on how to do it, and I'm
feeling ambivalent about doing it.
But we're both teachers of communication
and so I'd like to try to do that,
but I want you to work with me on it.
Would now be a good time to do that, or
should we just set up a formal meeting?
How do you feel now?
Matt Abrahams: One, I'm curious and
two, much more willing to roll up
my sleeves and work with you on it.
So the way you frame that,
the position you came from,
does make a huge difference.
Stan Christensen: Yeah.
And so what you want to do with someone is
make them feel comfortable, come to them
thinking, I wanna joint problem solve.
I wanna figure out how to build
the relationship over time.
Put them at ease.
And that's one of the key
skills in negotiation.
Matt Abrahams: Yeah.
So that, that small talk, that
connection really does make a
difference in addition to the framing.
Are there things that we can do in
advance to the negotiation to help?
I'm a big fan of setting
expectations, helping people
understand what's going to unfold.
Can we do things in advance and
can you give us an example or two?
So I'll share with you sort
of the thing I'm fishing for.
When I run meetings, I will make
sure in my meeting invite, I'm very
specific about what we can expect,
how we're going to go through it.
So when people show up,
they're not surprised.
Are there things that we can do
like that to help with negotiation?
Stan Christensen: Let's just take
your example of having an agenda.
So I always do the same thing.
I always start with an agenda.
Now people can feel that you're being
controlling if it's your agenda.
Let's say it's a two party negotiation.
So what I always say is, I've come
with some thoughts and a draft agenda.
We can either use that or we can use
an agenda that you have, or we can
create one together on the whiteboard.
What would be your preference?
How often do my counterparts
say, yeah, I also came with an
agenda and I'd rather use mine?
How often does it happen?
It's never happened in my whole career.
So that gives you a lot
of power in negotiation.
You're gonna control the agenda,
and so what should go on the agenda?
You should think about what
are the objectives, okay?
What people should be there, what's
the process for communication?
Is this a one-time meeting?
Are we clear about the outcomes?
And then I would go into some of
the things that I wanted to either
communicate or learn in the meeting.
Then we have other frameworks
that we can talk about.
Matt Abrahams: I really like the
offer to co-create an agenda, even
if they don't take you up on it.
It shows that you are willing to be
collaborative, listen and work together
to define it, and I think that positions
that connection and a respect that
really only serves you benefit in that.
Stan Christensen: The other thing I'll
do to even go the next step is I will
maybe put my chair on their side of the
table, share the agenda, or put it up on
a whiteboard so that we're co-creating it.
There's a famous saying in negotiation
that the art of negotiation
is letting them have your way.
Now it feels a little manipulative,
but on the agenda having them feel
like a co-creator of that agenda
makes all the difference in the world.
Matt Abrahams: I like that.
Let them feel like
they're having your way.
That's great.
You said something there that I
really wanna highlight, that you can
actually manage not only the agenda,
but the physical setup of the room.
I remember when I was learning to be
a high school teacher, I taught high
school for two years when I left high
tech before I started the career I
have today, I taught high school and
they taught us classroom management.
And one of the things they said is,
when you are sitting down with a student
who has done something inappropriate,
wrong, challenging, think about how
you set your chair to face their chair.
Is it shoulders facing each
other or do you set the chairs
askew so you're not directly?
And it makes a tremendous difference.
So I really like you highlighting where
you put yourself in the room, where the
orientation is towards whatever the shared
experience, the whiteboard, et cetera.
Thank you for bringing that up though.
And most of us don't
think about that at all.
We just come sit wherever we can.
Stan Christensen: Yeah, I think just
put that under the category of setup.
You want to have a setup
that works for both sides.
Matt Abrahams: Before we switch
topics to talk about a few other
things, can you share one mistake many
people make when they go to negotiate
that does a disservice to them?
And is there one thing beyond
listening and some of the other
things you've talked about that you
wish everybody was doing that would
really help them in negotiation?
Stan Christensen: The biggest
mistake I see people make is
to get hijacked by a surprise.
Often something will come up
that you weren't expecting.
All that means is that some assumption
you are making is coming into question.
So what they should do is then
start inquiring and drilling
down, what was I missing?
How do I get to this assumption I
made that was in fact incorrect?
And so that's a mistake
a lot of people make.
Matt Abrahams: I like that.
So the mistake and the correction there.
So if something goes awry or doesn't
go the way you expected, rather
than entrench yourself or get
distant, lean in and ask questions.
Really helpful.
You host an amazing podcast.
You were very kind to
have me on as a guest.
It's called All Things Negotiation.
I've learned a lot from it.
Why did you choose to do a podcast and
what do you hope to accomplish with it?
Stan Christensen: It's a great question.
Really two things.
We teach here at Stanford, that's a very
small elite group of students, and so my
podcast is an effort to get the word out
of how to negotiate to a broader audience.
So how do you learn negotiation?
The best way you can learn is
by hearing people's stories.
So I interview people who are experienced.
They might be working in the
startup world, they might be
working in government, they might
be working in the world of sports.
I've even had athletes on there.
And so it's sharing people's stories
about negotiation to create learning.
That's really the most important thing.
The second reason is it's fun.
You and I met each other because of
my podcast, and so I'm constantly
meeting new people and improving
the things that I teach my students.
Matt Abrahams: One of the things I really
value about how you do your podcast is you
solicit a lot of stories from your guests.
Is there a story that you learned
that had a change or impact on the
way you communicate and negotiate?
Stan Christensen: I do think I've
learned from all of my guests, including
you, of course, the one that jumps to
mind is General Stanley McChrystal.
I was fortunate to interview
him and I've been thinking
about the interview ever since.
And the reason I've been thinking
about it, he recently wrote a book
called On Character, and he talks
about how character is in fact a
negotiation and it's a lifetime
of negotiating your character, the
ability to trust one another, more
importantly to be trustworthy.
And if we look at our country and
what's going on right now, we need
more people that have developed
relationships of trust and character.
And he's not only a great example
of that, but in the interview
he teaches us how to do that.
Matt Abrahams: I love that you learned
from somebody who's a great teacher.
I've had the good fortune to interview
him as well, but also point about
trust and building trust, so important.
This has been a great
conversation as I knew it would.
Before we end, I'd like to
ask everybody three questions.
One I'm gonna make up for you and
the other two I've been asking
across all the podcast episodes.
Are you up for that?
Stan Christensen: Absolutely.
Matt Abrahams: Excellent.
Beyond the negotiating you do and the
teaching that you do of negotiation,
you've navigated the venture
capital world, you've raised money,
you've helped people raise money.
What's your best advice for
communicating a new disruptive idea
to those who might be skeptical
or unsure of what you're saying?
Stan Christensen: Yeah, the most
important advice here is to present
as they want to be presented to.
Most venture capitalists either
have a video or a blog or
something online talking about
how they like presentations to go.
So if you come with that information,
Hey, I did some research on your
firm and you guys tend to like to use
PowerPoint, or you guys tend to just
like to do Q and A. And I would start
by saying, I've done some research.
I assume that what you guys
really like to do is Q and A.
Should we jump right to that?
Or, I have a PowerPoint, we can use that.
So you're kind of asking for
permission and then they feel
like, wow, you're sophisticated.
The second thing about venture
capitalists is they're a little
bit like car dealers in the sense
that they know what they're doing.
If you try to play their
game, they're gonna win.
They're gonna play it better.
And so what I say is, rather than
try to play their game better,
create the terms for the game.
I tell students, create a two
week period that you're willing
to talk to venture capitalists.
Define that so that they don't
drag it out for four months and
introduce you individually to their
partners over a long period of time.
And it creates a little bit
of a scarcity mentality, so
don't try to play their game.
Play your game, 'cause you're
not gonna play their game better.
Matt Abrahams: So the very first
thing I heard you say is take
time to reflect on your audience.
And many of these folks will tell you
how they want to be communicated with.
So appreciate that and act accordingly.
And then the other thing that's
implied in that is you have to
adjust and adapt your message.
A lot of people I know who I help
with pitching just create one
pitch and they just keep delivering
it in different circumstances.
And what you're advising is no, you have
to adjust and adapt to what they tell you.
And then the second part of your
advice is set up parameters.
You can bring your own parameters
and boundaries to the interaction,
and that can be helpful because it
can build momentum more quickly.
I'll be curious to hear your
answer to question number two.
Who is a communicator
that you admire and why?
Stan Christensen: Gosh, there's so many.
The one that comes to mind is Dr. Martin
Luther King, and the why is he was able
to fuse beautiful, vivid storytelling
with moral authority in a way that I
don't know anyone else who has done that.
For my students, I have them read
the letter from Birmingham Jail
every semester, and we look at
that as a persuasive document.
It's in effect a negotiation.
And so what Martin Luther King was able
to do by both the written and spoken word,
for me, puts him in the hall of fame.
No one touches him.
He essentially appealed
to our consciousness.
And if you can appeal to someone's
consciousness and change a generation,
he fast forwarded how we manage and
we're still negotiating race relations,
but he did more to change how we think
about that than any other person.
And so I think he's my top choice.
Matt Abrahams: I really love
that you use one of his speeches
as an example of negotiation.
I have used several of his speeches as
examples of lots of things, rhetorical
flourish, clarity, engagement, but
I've never used it as a negotiation,
and I think that's really fascinating.
Thank you for sharing that, and thank
you for doing that with our students.
Final question, what are the first
three ingredients that go into a
successful communication recipe?
Stan Christensen: I'm not much of a cook,
but I have a lot to say about negotiation.
I would say the first one that
comes to mind is vulnerability.
We assume that we should come in very
strong, very powerful, to use your
word, advocate, when in reality if
you can be vulnerable, it tends to
beget vulnerability on the other side.
So that would be my first ingredient.
Second would be to question your
assumptions and let's just drill into that
a little bit more than we did earlier.
We all come with assumptions.
I come with certain assumptions
to this conversation.
We're both white males.
We both teach at Stanford.
We're both middle aged.
We have kids.
A lot of similarities, but there are
probably some things that we really
see differently and fleshing that out.
And so question the assumption that you
understand the other party, that you
know what they want, and as we talked
about earlier, that there's nothing
they could tell you that wouldn't change
your objectives for what a successful
outcome would be in the negotiations.
That would be second, is
questioning your assumptions.
I'd say third, have an action
plan for going forward.
Often people negotiate very complex
agreements and they go file that in
the digital file somewhere, and what
gets implemented is totally different.
In the world that I used to work in,
mergers and acquisitions, often they don't
work out very well, and the reason is
no one is focused on the implementation.
So it doesn't matter how effective
you are at negotiation if the deal
doesn't get implemented effectively.
So that'd be my third ingredient.
Matt Abrahams: I really like
that you start answering this
question with vulnerability.
When I think about negotiation,
vulnerability is the antithesis of what
I think about, but I can really see based
on what you've shared, not just in this
answer, but prior, how that really sets
you up to have a relationship that sets
the negotiation on a path to success.
Questioning assumptions, absolutely
understand why that's important.
We come in perhaps more rigid than we
should, and staying open, and then having
a clear action plan for what comes next.
Even though you say you're not a good
cook, I can certainly see that you're
gonna set up a great negotiation.
Stan, this has been fantastic.
This has really been helpful.
You've laid out what makes for
successful negotiation and more
importantly, successful relationships.
And really negotiation is but one
tool for managing those relationships.
And thank you for challenging us
to see negotiation more broadly
and providing us with the tools
and techniques to do it better.
Thank you.
Stan Christensen: Nice to be here.
Matt Abrahams: Thank you for
joining us for another episode of
Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast.
To learn more about negotiation,
please listen to episode 15 with Maggie
Neal in episode 204 with Sheila Heen.
This episode was produced by Katherine
Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams.
Our music is from Floyd Wonder.
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