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The Disability and…Podcast gets right to the heart of some of the most pressing issues in arts, culture and beyond with a series of bold, provocative and insightful interviews with disabled artists, key industry figures and the odd legend. The Disability and…Podcast is currently monthly.
Episode 79. Disability and...Edinburgh Fringe Transcript
Intro
Welcome to the Disability and... podcast, bringing together thoughtful discussion and debate. This month, Disability Arts Online Communications Manager Sarah Marie Mooney chats with Extant Theatre's Artistic Director, Dr Maria Oshodi, about visually impaired access at the Edinburgh Fringe Festival.
Sarah Marie Mooney
Welcome to the Disability and... podcast. I'm Sarah Marie Mooney, Communications Manager at Disability Arts Online, and I'm joined today by Dr Maria Oshodi, who is Artistic Director at Extant, to talk about visually impaired access at the Edinburgh Festival Fringe.
Dr Maria Oshodi
Hello.
Sarah Marie Mooney
Hi Maria!
So I think let me just jump straight in. What I was going to ask was: when did you first go to the Edinburgh Fringe as an artist or an audience member? And when you were there, what was that experience like for you in terms of visually impaired access and the representation that you found?
Dr Maria Oshodi
I just suddenly thought about a moment in one of my—well, my first experience at the Edinburgh Festival. I'll give you a bit of context: it was back in 2007, and Extant took a cabaret in the dark, which we call The Effing and Blinding Cabaret, to Theatre Workshop, which was a bespoke theatre set up to support disabled artists in Edinburgh, Scotland. It was run by a guy called Robert Rae, and every year they had the Degenerate Festival, which was part of the Edinburgh Fringe. It really highlighted disabled talent and programmed disabled artists throughout the Edinburgh Festival.
So in 2007, we took our cabaret up there. We had a weekend and ran the show, but also one of our friends and partner artists from the USA, Lynn Manning, was bringing his show over as well called Weights. We had premiered it in 2005 for its UK tour—the first time this solo autobiographical piece he created had been toured in the UK. On the back of that, a big producer who produces a lot of big shows at Edinburgh called Guy Masterson became aware of Lynn's show and invited him back in 2007.
So whilst we were there, Lynn was there at the Assembly Rooms and we all hung out together, which was fantastic. We were five totally blind artists. We went completely without support workers, we dragged all our props, instruments, and everything onto the train. The train broke down on the way up to Edinburgh, so we ended up having to be turfed off at Newcastle and get on a coach. We met a lot of blind golfers who were going to a golf tournament and invited them all to our cabaret! It was completely rambunctious and anarchic, which was very much how we operated in those days, but it was brilliant for that.
But the access, there was no access. Even as part of the Degenerate Festival, I don't remember there being that much going on in terms of access provisions for audiences from what I remember. We didn't even go to Lynn's show at the Assembly Rooms.
What we did do—and the thing I was laughing about earlier—was visit a place called The Meadows in Edinburgh, which is a big field and common. During the festival, everyone goes and touts their wares there. Me and Gary, who was the guitarist in Lynn's show and who is completely blind as well, decided to launch ourselves through The Meadows on our own with flyers. We thought, 'Well, whoever we bump into is meant to receive these flyers!' After about 20 minutes to half an hour, we realised we were lost and needed to get back. We asked someone, 'Excuse me, could you help us? Do you know where we are?' meaning our specific location in The Meadows. And they went, 'Well, you're in Edinburgh, and you are...'
Sarah Marie Mooney
Obviously!
Dr Maria Oshodi
So, yeah! That was the level of access and our experience. But it was fantastic, actually. I remember we went to see Liz Carr doing a solo comedy show, and we all turned up en masse. We were late and were stumbling and bumbling through the audience. She stopped the show and just went, 'Oh, the sunshine bus has arrived!' Thanks, Liz! But it was a great experience.
So that was 2007, and then we didn't really return until 2024. But I'll tell you more about that.
Sarah Marie Mooney
Obviously, access for audiences was non-existent back then, though you still had a great time. But do you think access for artists was really being considered at all, and has it changed now?
Dr Maria Oshodi
Well, it's interesting, because in saying that about Theatre Workshop—and I don't want to dismiss them, as we were only there for a weekend, trying to fit so much in and didn't get to catch anyone else's shows—our access was built into our performance. I can't believe Theatre Workshop wouldn't focus on it while presenting the disability aspect of the Fringe Festival, but I can't be too sure.
It's fair to say it has been pretty minimal overall. We started collecting data and noted that in 2024, there was a tweet that spurred our response. It was from Rosie Priest, who noted that there were 3300 shows at the Edinburgh Festival, only 10 had audio description options—less than 0.3% coverage. That was our baseline. From there, we decided to take this on as a challenge to see if we could try and get some improvement.
From 2024 to now things have definitely changed. Part of taking on that challenge was approaching a venue to see if someone would support us in improving the situation. We approached James Mackenzie at ZOO, who was very collaborative and committed to having 100% of their shows offer some form of access for visually impaired people at the festival. We've built relationships with other venues since, such as The Pleasance, theSpace, and Assembly, asking them to commit to increasing access.
There's a year-on-year momentum of growth. We've gone from an estimated 30 to 50 shows in 2024 (representing less than 1% at the Fringe) to increasing that in 2025 to 2%. Projections indicate that this year we'll reach somewhere between 10% and 12% with our host venue, Underbelly, which is fantastic!
Sarah Marie Mooney
Brilliant! For anyone listening who might not be aware, what are the ways performances can be made accessible for visually impaired people, both creatively and practically?
Dr Maria Oshodi
We've produced something called the Ladder of Access, which looks at a spectrum of ways affordable access can be built into shows—whether at the point of creation or added onto an existing piece.
This developed out of our Enhance work, a concept I thought of about 10 years ago when we couldn't tour as much. Integrated access and using it as a creative tool has grown exponentially. Back around 2017, if a disability-led company wasn't touring to a local venue, there was very little on offer unless it was a traditional audio-described, BSL, or captioned show. Visiting companies didn't feel like they had access tools in their own kit; it was always left to external experts.
I felt things could be done to make performances clearer and more accessible for audiences. As both a maker and an audience member, I know a show sometimes just needs a small tweak to make the whole thing clearer. So we built the Enhance model, riffing off audio description by creating pre-show programme notes that relay key visual information without giving away spoilers. We also incorporated touch tours—either integrated with programme notes or run separately—and provided visual impairment awareness training for venue staff so receiving companies feel welcoming to disabled and visually impaired audiences. Through the support of the Paul Hamlyn Foundation over the last three years, Enhance has been embedded across venues nationally, including at the Edinburgh Festival.
Sometimes, even if a show isn't complex, simply giving a visual description of yourselves and the setting at the beginning establishes the show in a multi-dimensional way and adds colour for visually impaired audience members. That costs nothing—just a bit of forethought.
Sarah Marie Mooney
It's about helping people realise that small changes, like a visual description at the start, are things anyone can do for their show. Enhance sounds like a great programme for progressing that work. What has been the involvement of organisations like the Fringe Society in supporting it?
Dr Maria Oshodi
The Fringe Society has programmed a series of workshops with Extant to provide training for artists on Extant's Ladder of Access—budget-friendly ways of making these small improvements. They've been developing this notion with us, reaching artists coming to the festival, and letting them know these resources exist. During the festival itself, we have two upcoming in-person workshops for artists on 9th and 16th August at Fringe Central, where anyone interested can sign up.
Sarah Marie Mooney
Amazing! We talk a lot about audience access provisions, but Extant also does a lot of work raising the profile of blind and visually impaired-led shows. Are there any artists at the Fringe or beyond creating work that we should know about?
Dr Maria Oshodi
Well, this year—drum roll—for the first time, we are presenting the first-ever visually impaired showcase at our partner venue, Underbelly Jersey! There have been other disability-led showcases at Edinburgh, but this is the first visually impaired showcase. We're calling our line-up a 'blunder' of seven magnificent visually impaired artists—we love that collective noun! It takes place on August 18th at Underbelly Jersey.
The whole event is hosted by blind, non-binary, bisexual drag king Tito Bone, who will present an excerpt from their acclaimed show, An Evening with Tito Bone. The showcase also features:
• Aarian Mehrabani, presenting a piece from their solo Fringe show, How's Your Head?
• Ebony Rose Dark, performing their new drag piece, Growing Nostalgia.
• Tom Skelton, a Fringe veteran presenting an excerpt from VIP (Visually Impaired Person).
• Neil Skene, a stand-up comedian presenting an excerpt from The Belligerency of Blindness.
• Shashank Sharma, presenting an Iranian-influenced piece, The Stuff That Dreams Are Made Of.
• Holly Thomas (Half Lights Project), presenting an experimental movement piece.
It's going to be a really interesting, eclectic mix of work.
Sarah Marie Mooney
That sounds like a brilliant showcase! Is it a lot of work to bring everyone together and get audiences out for a showcase like that?
Dr Maria Oshodi
Yeah! Louisa Sanfey, our Artist Development Manager, has been producing this for months. She put out a very conscientious call for artists to apply, and with funding support from the People's Postcode Lottery, we were able to support artists to attend.
There are a lot of logistics, but we understand the terrain around visual impairment and artist support. This time is particularly exciting because the showcase is front facing to the industry. We're working hard to bring key industry players in so they can experience these artists and broker further opportunities. We've sent invitations to over 300 industry professionals and are getting great take-up.
We have other draft agreements in the pipeline, and once signed, we'll have even more exciting announcements regarding the showcase.
Sarah Marie Mooney
Amazing! Beyond the showcase, what other ways can we encourage venues, organisations, and artists to understand that visually impaired access isn't just an add-on, but something integral to the creative process and dramaturgy of a show?
Dr Maria Oshodi
We feel Enhance is our primary vehicle for that, alongside supporting artists directly. With the showcase, we ensure access is prioritised, because an artist being visually impaired doesn't automatically guarantee built-in access. We maintain a gold standard at Extant, creating a peer-learning environment where artists go through the 'Extant filter' and carry those skills forward.
Enhance meets producers wherever they are. Even if a show is already created, we demonstrate what can still be added. Once makers experience working with access, they see the difference it makes and often want to consult us from the very start of their next creation. Several companies have now made it their in-house style.
For venues, the business case is clear: if touring companies have built-in access, audiences have more choice, leading to higher attendance.
Sarah Marie Mooney
It makes performances accessible and makes good business sense!
Dr Maria Oshodi
I start with the money, and then we go from there!
Sarah Marie Mooney
Have you found that access in theatre often focuses more on audiences than artists? What can venues and organisations at the Fringe and beyond do to be more accessible for visually impaired artists?
Dr Maria Oshodi
Several visually impaired artists who took work to the Fringe were interviewed by VICS (Visually Impaired Creators Scotland) last year. They were commissioned by the Fringe Society to conduct research, and Extant supported it by connecting artists with VICS.
Visually impaired artists reported feeling overwhelmed by information in inaccessible formats. Standard systems were inaccessible, including main online booking/venue platforms. Networking events, like media speed-dating, were very difficult to navigate, and venues relied heavily on PDFs, which are tricky for screen readers.
To mitigate this, organisations need holistic visual impairment awareness training across all theatre departments. The Fringe Society has been consulting with Extant on better website labelling to identify work by visually impaired artists, and we need more events like the Extant showcase to champion visually impaired talent.
Sarah Marie Mooney
Do you think visually impaired audiences and artists have historically been overlooked compared to other access provisions?
Dr Maria Oshodi
Historically, my research shows that has certainly been the case. In 2024, data showed abysmally low levels of access provision. Our intervention puts power back into the hands of makers so that work coming through venues has access at its core. If venues miss it, the artists themselves can bring it in.
Sarah Marie Mooney
How does access at the Fringe compare to the wider UK theatre sector?
Dr Maria Oshodi
We plan to hold a 'state of the art' event next year around theatre access alongside two other providers, looking at everything from traditional audio description to radical integrated forms.
The last time we conducted a full mapping was in 2018 with the Is It Working? report (commissioned by Extant and written by Amelia Cavallo and Louise Fryer, published by Routledge in 2021). It looked at integrated access accountability compared to traditional audio description. Nearly 10 years on, we need another litmus test to map whether things are improving or declining across the sector.
Sarah Marie Mooney
Data really helps the sector see where improvements are needed, and the Fringe is the ideal marketplace for that.
Dr Maria Oshodi
Absolutely. With our interventions, the Fringe might even be leading the way now, but we need to map those figures side by side.
Sarah Marie Mooney
Was there a turning point for you where you noticed a major shift toward visually impaired access and representation?
Dr Maria Oshodi
Completely. When I first started working, there was virtually nothing. Then audio description began appearing in large rep or West End theatres around 1988. I remember going to the Duke of York's Theatre, where describers from Theatre Royal Windsor were all volunteers. I asked back then, 'Why isn't this accredited on the level of sign language interpreting?' and was told it wasn't necessary.
Bit by bit, audio description became professionalised. Then companies like Extant challenged the traditional model. We wanted to move away from the restrictive experience of wearing headsets, which divorces the audience member from the live performance, and began building integrated shows instead. Integrated access has since captured people's imaginations and become much more prevalent. Today, when you ask people in workshops about audio description, everyone understands what it is.
Sarah Marie Mooney
Where do you hope visually impaired access at the Fringe will be five years from now, and what role will Extant play?
Dr Maria Oshodi
We need to ensure access moves from a performative 'flavour of the month' add-on to something that truly shifts culture. Just as Extant helped pioneer integrated audio description over the last 30 years, we want to exert a similar influence on festival culture. We want to start a chain reaction.
Post-Edinburgh, we are exploring human and tech integrations, such as wayfinding technology in and around festival venues. We plan to platform this paradigm shift at our own large-scale event next year to mark Extant's 30th anniversary. We've started in an organic way at Edinburgh, capturing people's commitment, and we want to continue liberating visually impaired audiences and artists with independent choice.
Sarah Marie Mooney
Extant is really leading the way. Exciting things to come!
Dr Maria Oshodi
Definitely! We'll come back and share more as developments are ready.
Sarah Marie Mooney
Maria, it's been great chatting with you today. Thank you so much for coming on the Disability and... podcast, and best of luck with Enhance and your work at the Fringe and beyond!
Dr Maria Oshodi
Thank you very much, Sarah. It's been great talking to you, and thank you for such intelligent, thought-provoking questions.
Sarah Marie Mooney
Thanks so much, Maria. Bye-bye!
Outro
Thank you for listening. We hope you enjoyed this episode of Disability and.... Further episodes can be found on the Disability Arts Online website at disabilityarts.online.