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Can two universities, on each side of the earth, jointly make an international course in social work during Covid without ever meeting? Well, we finally met up, and made this episode where we reflect on the process with Zoom, Teams, emails, and finally meeting each other!
A podcast about international social work. Made by SocNet98, an European network of 18 universities that graduates students in social work. In this podcast you can listen to a broad specter of topics that is all connected to social work in an international perspective.
Welcome to The Social Pod, a podcast brought to you by SocNet 98, a network of universities sharing the common interests for social work in an international perspective. In our episode, you will hear from students around the world studying social work at interviews and lectures from our international University Week. And welcome to this episode of, um, The Social Part. And right now, we are going to make an episode we are going to talk about the title of the episode is going to be The Making of an International Course during COVID. And to, uh, start off the introduction, uh, where we are sitting. And just let's say that first, where are we sitting? We are sitting at California State University, Domingue Hills. People around the world might not know where Domingue Hills is. It is in Los Angeles, California. United States.
Carson. Yes.
Wow.
City of Carson, Southern California.
Sunny Southern California.
Yeah. So that's where we are at physically right now. And introduction me, myself, my name is Steinar Vikholt. I'm an assistant professor at University of Southeastern Norway.
And to the left of me is Hi, I'm Hannah Nguyen. I'm an associate professor at Kelsey Dominguez Hills in the Department of Human Services.
Great.
And I'm Annalyn Valdezada. I'm, um, also an assistant professor here at Dominguez Hills. Um, my background is actually in public health, but I have been welcomed into the Department of Human Services, which has been fantastic.
Yay.
Great.
And I'm Sarah Underwood, an assistant professor here at CSU DH. My, uh, background is in social work as a clinical social worker.
And you must stay right here now because I'm visiting you guys from Norway is that you guys use a lot of abbreviations. So throughout this podcast, let's try to keep the abbreviation at the minimum. And I'll put up my hand if there's something that I don't understand.
Got it.
The background for us sitting right here now is that, uh, I think it's almost half a year ago or maybe one year ago, we started writing on me, and professor Phu Phan was writing an application, um, for granting because we wanted more students to travel from Norway to visiting you guys doing internships. And we also wanted to do it the opposite way around having your students traveling to Norway. Yeah. And so we applied for funding from the Norwegian Directorate for Higher Education Skills. We apply for 3 million Norwegian crowns. That translates around $300,000 or euros. I think they're almost the same right now. Yeah, pretty much the same they are to believe. And the goal of that project was to make more students travel to get more students, uh, of social work travel to get more of the staff faculty meeting each other. And that's what we started with. Or actually, we couldn't start with that. The first thing that we needed was actually to have something for your students coming to Norway to learn because back in Norway, all of the classes in is Norwegian so that was a big problem. We needed to make a course that, uh, was in English, so your student can understand what we're talking about.
That would be ideal unless you have a quick course on Norwegian.
Yeah. That would be problematic. Yeah. So what we started with, actually the first thing when we got to Grant, we needed to make a course. We needed to make something that your student could take when you're visiting us. And we also needed a course for our own students to get these international perspectives on social work. So we started, uh, doing this in the middle of COVID mhm.
Yeah.
I never met you guys before.
Yeah.
I met you guys a week ago, and we were working on a project for one year. Do you guys remember the first meeting?
Yeah, uh, just over under a week ago, I think. Actually, I'm at the first, like, meeting.
Yeah.
That was September, right.
When was that first meeting?
Steiner might be in September.
I remember in September.
Yeah.
I just remember having to get up early because it's night for you guys, and I was like.
09:00 a.m.. Um, so the time difference. Yeah.
I was like, why are these people from Norway? And why are they making me get up at ungodly hours?
Oh, yeah, I was working late. Very late. I remember I had to stay at the University campus because I was trying to get in that kind of work mood, and I think it was like, uh, seven, eight, eight in the afternoon back in Norway. Yeah. So I remember that. Any other first impressions?
I think my first thing was like, how are we going to make this happen?
Why were thinking of that?
I mean, we were in the middle of a pandemic. Right. So we were still trying to figure out how to survive.
Yeah.
And then there are these invitations to do this project, and, I mean, I have to say, you really kept perspective because we're like, we're going to push forward. We're going to make this happen.
Right.
And then here we are on this side. I think we were struggling quite a bit in the States at that time with the numbers Viking and so uncertain. Right. But we still came to that Zoom, and there were a lot of people, would you say over ten of us, 1012.
The total project group, including everybody, is about 1516 people.
Yes. And it was our first time meeting, too. So I think my initial reaction was like, how are we going to make this happen, first of all? So I think there's a lot of the unknown walking into it, and that feeling sat with me. Um, but I think the nice thing is, and being social workers, too, I think we always say, you got to sit with Ambiguities.
What does that mean?
You know, uncertainties when you don't know what to expect. Things unfold as crisis all the time or you just don't know what's going to happen. And I think it really helps to keep that perspective, because we all came and really showed up every time we met, and that gave me the assurance, like, we're going to make this happen.
I think it was also just so hard because we all felt disconnected. I know I did at least. Um, an Alan and I, our offices are next to each other. So we went from seeing each other all the time. In September had been a year almost where we hadn't seen each other in person.
Not at all.
Uh, a lot of us, if our family is any distance, we hadn't seen family. So it was weird trying to start forging connections with someone around the globe. Yeah, with people around the globe. And Hannah was part of the grant team. But I think for Annelyn and I, it was just like, we're showing up and, uh, what are we doing exactly? I'm making a connection with people I've never met when Annelyn and I haven't had a chat in a year. So I think that was, again, just totally reorienting ourselves to trying to form connections and again with this kind of gelottinous blob of a project that we were like, well, what is it? And everyone's kind of looking at it like, it's a blob. It will eventually be something. It'll get there. But right now, everyone's like, but what is it going to be?
So that was kind of me too. I was anxious, I was afraid, but I was actually kind of excited because we had been in this year of Zoom already. So I was excited for the fact that we were meeting with Norwegians. We were conducting something. We were creating something internationally over microphones, over computers. And it was just exciting for me, too, because, um, my Masters was in international health. So this idea for me personally, was finally I get to do something with that degree and doing something internationally. Granted, it's not in public health, but it's still connected to social work. And so that was exciting for me just to be able to one learn what is this whole project about and how am I going to contribute to it? How am I going to help it along? And what is my role to facilitating that? So it was exciting, but kind of scary because we didn't know what was going on, but very exciting. I want to emphasize that because we were in this pandemic. And how do you create these programs in a pandemic? And I just wasn't sure how to do it, let alone create a curriculum.
Sure.
And also, one thing I was thinking about was, um, uh, because looking back on it right now, I think this was crazy to start up this kind of project, very pandemic. But I also remember, Additionally, I didn't want to order or just say, I want it this way or this way or this way, because this kind of project or developmental project, you guys know what you want, you might know what you want. You have ideas. So it's not like we are going to make this in the next couple of weeks. We are going to develop this slowly. And I just remember, I think it was two weeks, maybe one month after we started the project. I told my colleagues back in Norway, if the whole project stops right now, that's okay because we have learned so much during the first time. Do you remember what we were talking about the first time?
I think, uh, we just got down to work and was just like, okay, let's break into group based on interest and start discussing what we're going to do for each module.
Yeah. So we had a module to work on, but even then it was a vague idea, uh, this concept of what each module was supposed to look like. And we were all still trying to figure out, okay, so how do we envision each module developing? Right.
And during that time, I figured out that we need to also talk about what is learning, how do we teach, what are your everyday, what are you doing? We started talking about how many hours of lecturing do we do? Are we using flipped classroom are we taking using breakout, group breaking, uh, the groups out, not break out groups and Zoom, but are we making them? How do we teach and how many credits? We're talking about how much curriculum for one week or one course and then suddenly realizing I'm talking about courses in Norway to being one whole semester, the same big group, like 80 students for one semester. I'm meeting them every other day or something like that. And you guys have individual classes. So teaching in different kinds of ways. So that was my idea that even though this stuff I learned so much regarding how we are teaching.
Yeah, I think there was a lot about just students, um, and teaching and not just the differences in how kind of University is designed, but what do students expect from University, how much guidance or lack thereof are they expecting? Um, that was definitely kind of a big part of the beginning, was just talking about not how are we going to physically structure it in terms of what are we doing with students, where are they going to be, when? But the concept of what's the course about, what are these modules about? Like Anneline said, kind of defining it, but also just what are Norwegian students doing to prep for class versus what are our students doing? And there are similarities. We make a lot of jokes about, did you do the reading? But there's, I think just such a difference. Even in meeting now, skipping ahead a little with your students. Um, I think there's just such a different approach sometimes because especially, um, Dominguez Hills, we have a lot of students who don't have background in University, who have never felt like they have a right to an education especially. And, um, I think that there's that idea of how do you teach all these different students using the same content and the same ideas with just where their heads are coming from, what their expectations, uh, are for education.
I think initially I felt like it was a cultural immersion experience for me, at least. And I'm so grateful that your team speaks English because I don't know how I would even learn Norwegian or to do this in another language, like mad respect for your team. That's all I have to say, because even then, we're speaking the same language. Right. But I think I personally had to kind of undo my notion, um, or assumptions around teaching and delivery or even content. Right. So when we got into the split up into the modules, I don't know about yours, but I think some of us were like, oh, well, first let's step back, because ours is on, like, mental health service delivery. What does that mean when you say mental health in the Norwegian context versus the US? And I think we find out our unit recently had a conversation around, what does that even mean when you say ethnic specific service delivery? Because that is something, um, that I do and I'm so comfortable with. But I think it was so refreshing for someone else to say, Wait, what do you mean? We haven't quite explored, um, that yet. So I think part of that initial conversation was really understanding the norms and the way things are done in each of our contexts.
Yeah. Because I asked those questions, and I just remember I have to feel comfortable with or not being afraid to ask those questions because it's so easy with a lot of academics is just sitting there and everybody should be showing off and how smart we are and stuff like that, and sort of like no one wants to put up their hands just like, what is that? What are you saying? Now, I don't understand this, but a lot of because of the language barrier. I'm just trying to figure out what words to use for the module or the course. What is the right English word? Yeah, we speak English, and most of my stuff speak English on an okay level, but there's a huge differences. And we're also talking about pretty sophisticated stuff.
Sometimes you're too humble, you're beyond. Okay.
Okay.
Your English is better than mine. Too serious, I think so.
That's one of the things that's been really cool for us, um, being an already diverse group here on the Dominguez Hills. And, um, Hannah grew up in Vietnam.
Analyn, um, is Filipino, but I grew up here in Southern California, so I actually grew up in this area.
Domingus Hill area, but with first Gen parent. I'm, um, in generations, but I'm married to an immigrant um, and I think it's just been so interesting and also felt so natural in my, um, experience, just because we do have that. We have a lot of students who English also isn't their first language. And it's been nice. And I've never felt like this is so frustrating. Like, they don't speak good enough English. I've never felt that because that's part of our lives, too, is that interpreting. And, um, how do I explain this in a different way? How can I make sure that the people around me understand? Because I want them to be on board? And so, as much as I know, I have felt like a true American. That's just like, why can't everyone just speaking? We're not learning Norwegian.
Exactly.
I'm struggling to gain a second language as it is. But the whole international perspective has just been so nice and felt, I think, like, a really natural fit for us as a diverse group, as a group that has asked those questions of like, why is it different this way? Why do we need ethnic specific, um, like, delivery systems? Why are we doing that? And I think that's something that's made us feel comfortable with the Norway end, and I hope made you guys feel comfortable with us, because no shade on Norway pretty homogenized. So I think that's something, um, else that we're bringing is not just one perspective of like, well, this is the US, but we're like, what is? But it's also not because we can talk about experience of first generation immigrants, second generation immigrants, people who have moved around the country. And I think, um, that's something that has been really neat to discover, and especially with you guys finally being here.
Oh, yeah.
Discovering and talking with you guys because, uh, that's one disadvantage, I will say, with COVID is we're all so busy. We all hate being on Zoom meetings or teams. I had grown to resent my computer at home, but we never really just, um, had that chatting over dinner and socializing. And I think getting to actually meet you guys in person has brought such a different dimension to my understanding. Um, of the project. I know. On my level, at least.
Yeah. Because a lot of the stuff that you're saying now, to actually be able to communicate on that level that we are right now, you need to trust each other. You need to not be afraid to actually say, I don't understand that. Can you please say that one more time? It's a great point you're making that in the population you have here, that is actually something of everyday life. But I know that most of my staff just thinks that, no, I need to be at a higher level to actually even be in a meeting, for example, if we're going to speak English.
But that's the thing, too. I think that I will say in the time of COVID, especially that you miss is just that chatting. Like I was saying earlier, when, uh, we started this project, I hadn't just had a casual conversation with Hannah and Annalyn in a year because they've got kids, they're busy. I'm not going to be like, hey, do you want to get on Zoom to just hang, um, out? No one wants to do that. So I think that's one thing that the actual not just being online international, because that's easy. The travel is the hard part. And I think that that adds such a dimension to it of. Especially with us reopening and in this kind of, everything looks different mindset. It's so cool to have you guys here because we come to it differently than I think we would have precoveted. We're all trying to remember, um, how to be humans in public. And we're like real shoes and hard pants, as some, uh, people call them.
Get, um, ready in the morning.
I know. Not five minutes before class, but actually put my face on, leave the house. And it's like, what am I doing? But it's so cool because we've had that reset kind of. And even though it's been. I'm not going to lie exhausting. It's been so good having you guys here, because again, postcovid, we're all coming back to humanity with this totally different view on how we interact and that socialization. And like I said, not just being. We need to be at that higher level. We're in a meeting. We need to be formal. But being able to be like, no, come see my house. My parents are here and just hanging out over dinner and talking about kids and family and the stuff you don't talk about in online meetings. Because it's like, no, we're getting this module done. We are focusing. We're getting out of here. Nobody wants to be here more time than we have to. There's just such a dimension to it.
But after Corona, after Covet, are we still going to do this? We are going to have a Zoom meeting. I think it's in a couple of weeks time.
Uh, we will.
But I think, again, I'm not going to lie. Um, I'm more excited to have it now that I've met you than I probably would have been had I not been with folks just because it's online dating. Right. That's a bad example. But it's that idea of mission oriented versus you finally meet someone, and then it's like, oh, this person's totally different than I thought in this case in excellent ways.
Reaffirming some of, um, these.
Yeah, questions.
But actually, there's a couple of people. You might don't know this, but there's a couple of people on the Norwegian team that I've never met either. He's from Denmark.
But you guys talk like you know each other.
Yeah, I only met him in this project only by someone never met him at all.
Oh, my God.
I thought, you see, um, YUPI. On a regular basis.
They'Re going to meet and just be like, you're going to borrow it out hard, right?
Yeah. So it's not just Norway versus the US. We also have because our University is eight campuses, we are teaching in different places. Um, so we are spread out also. So Sum and Covet also brought us together from the different campuses. So we have the same boss, but we are working on different kind of campuses.
I do have to say though, I think it's more productive because I'm just thinking, what if we didn't have the pandemic? How would we be meeting? Would we still be doing it by Zoom or would be by phone or only by email? And I'm just trying to think pre electronic days. How did my professors when I was, um, going through my international program, how did they meet? How did they set up all this curriculum basically by phone? So I think we're at an advantage. I want to say. Absolutely, because we are able to be productive and still get stuff, um, done internationally, different time zones. Right. But it's also one of those things where you get to know each other and the idea of one of these days we're going to Norway or another part of your team is going to come to the US. It's exciting. Right.
I agree. I think it really, um, forced us to operate differently and, um, we all came in. I think we have this trust in the process and we trusted you. I know I've had worked on the grant with you before, but the implementation is so different.
Right.
Because we wrote what we wrote and then now it's like, oh, we got the money. And I remember you're like, how are we going to do this now that we have the money? Right. That's a grand feeling.
Yeah.
And so I appreciate that we're able, um, now to just accept that this is the way that we're going to do things and I think we just roll with it and that's something so nice. And now that I'm thinking about it too. So I want to bring in the personal a little bit because I think all of our lives are intertwined professionally and personally at this point during the pandemic. And I remember signing on, seeing Sarah's furry friends and then your children and then mine. And sometimes my son will come to the screen or I'm like muting myself, covering my mouth and screaming at him like, get ready for school or I'm on my way to drop him off.
But I think that's a great point because even though we are like you're saying, you're saying that it's more professional, we are going to make this stuff work. And it's not that personal. But on the other side, we are in our homes. So we're not meeting or informal with my dress on and just sitting around the table. We are in our homes.
Yes.
Well, and I think that's one of the things, too. Just talking about differences of the pandemic is that bleed of personal and professional. Um, and Annalynn talking about how would we have done this before? I could have seen us in a conference room as dominant Hills all on Zoom, but in the same conference room, and you, um, guys on your end doing the same thing. But even then, you're going to act differently, right? Other folks from Norway don't want to ask that question in front of their boss. But when it's just a couple of them, couple of us, they'll ask for those clarifications or get a deeper understanding. There's things I would never say in front of Dr. Fawn that I would readily say in front of my coworkers or look like an idiot in front of people. I'm very willing, um, to look like an idiot. That's a lie. I'm willing to do that anytime. But again, um, there is that bleed there's that difference. But again, um, getting to do it face to face has just been so cool.
And also, while we've been here, we've been actually producing stuff also. So we're making this podcast. We've done a lot of video stuff, but we haven't been so focused on we have to be productive because we can do that on Zoom. I feel that we use more time together getting to know each other, seeing the site, stuff you cannot do on Zoom. Maybe there's a virtual tour of Little Tokyo Online or, uh, something like that. But I've been there now. I've been there with you guys. I've been taking the tours, seeing the sites, listing our students. That is in here in La.
Yeah. I mean, you guys drove down Skid Row, and while you can do a Google Street view of Skid Row, it's going to look different week to week and no telling how many things they'll blur out that you can see in person.
Right. So you use more time on the stuff that is better suited, um, for doing physically. And we're getting more productive doing stuff online that suits being online. And actually right now, just feel bad for the next meeting because then you have a lot of people that haven't met you.
Yes.
We have to remember that one meeting next up. So it's not a ton of internal humor or something.
Inside joke.
Inside joke.
Yeah, of course, because of all the side conversations. That's the other thing, too, that I appreciated with you and Trina being here and visiting is I got to know her, I got to know you. And having the side conversations of how's your family, what are they into, what are your interests and even meeting the students and what they're all about. I actually learned a lot more about, um, University here versus University in normally and the differences in education. And it was eye opening for me. And I realized, oh, that's how we're different. And then it put me in a different mindset. Okay, how am I going to help with my module to craft it so that our students understand what we're trying to teach them, as well as what Norwegian students are going to learn, uh, from us. So help me put it in a better frame of thought of how to carve out the curriculum a little bit better. So I appreciate those side conversations that you don't get to have on Zoom because you're so focused on getting the work done.
Yeah, of course.
Meeting the check marks.
Also, I know you have mentioned, um, Steiner, and your students have mentioned, too, that even when you're not doing the work, it's still just you're always learning, you're always seeing something new, whether it's just things you're not used to questioning why you guys were talking about one way streets the other day. Why are there so many one way streets in the US and in Long Beach, especially those structural things that, um, you just can't get without physically being immersed somewhere? And I think that's one of the things, even the people we haven't met there's just. I have a different understanding of living in Norway, of being faculty, um, in Norway. And the students that I think bleeds through then into module development and helping students on both sides just have a more robust understanding of why they should care beyond maybe getting to take an international trip.
And also just add on that you haven't been to Norway yet, and you learn a lot of what it is to live in Norway by having Norwegian students here. So International Station is not always traveling to another place. It's also welcoming people from other places to your place.
Uh, but we only come in the spring and the summer, right? We just learned the nice part of living in Norway.
I love the winter.
Oh, I know. I do, too. But I'm just imagining throwing Hannah and Annalyn into, uh, Norwegian December, just getting off the plane and grew up around the tropics. I think you guys would just. Nope. Right back on the plane, you'd walk down the gang plank and just be like, no, thank you.
I don't know, though. I like the snow, but I don't know how negative the weather is. Like, I'd like to feel it.
I know that two of you guys are going to have classes now. I think we have to round up that went by very fast.
Yes, it did.
Oh, I did. Yeah, it did. I feel like we can have this conversation a little bit longer, too.
Final thoughts?
Final thoughts? No, I really appreciate this opportunity. Didn't know what to expect, but, um, that's when the good things happen, when you don't expect too much. And then I feel like we've been productive, I would say, and producing things and moving along. And then, of course, the icing on top is having you and Trina come, and I think it really both of you shared it reinforced and reaffirmed a lot of things, and I'm just really excited. I feel like we have a friendship outside of this. Right. We're not just collaborators. I would email to check in on your kids, your wife and Trina's family, that kind of thing. And I think it's nice to feel that way, to not feel like it's just work, but we're making connections across the globe. Yes. I like that feeling.
Thank you.
I was just going to say final thoughts are that the, uh, goal of trying to get more students to go internationally. I think this is a great first step. I know I'm into, um, getting students out into the world so that they get a better perspective of what they're doing. And so just this collaboration and just being able to get to know you get to know Trina. The students that are here currently is just for me. I want to set more dates with them so I can learn more about Norwegian students, and hopefully they get to learn more about me as well.
Um, I think after almost two years of us all being so in our own worlds, talking about being at home, and I, um, think all of our homes are different than they were prepandemic because we've set up these little nooks and niches and bubbles for ourselves and the opportunity to not just step back outside of that into the day to day, but step back outside of that with this new perspective, with these new thoughts. You said at the beginning, the topic, um, is theoretically developing an international program in the time of covet. And I think this may or may not have happened without COVID, but I think it would have just been such a different journey for everyone, the students, the faculty, on the importance of um, stepping outside of in the past year bubble was Long Beach or La. And now it's like, no, my bubble is my living room. So now it's kind of bursting that bubble and allowing students to have experiences and learn things that there's no way to do it without talking to someone who is not just outside your bubble, but in an entirely different place and time. And I think that's just such a good, um, opportunity, especially in social work.
Yeah, absolutely. And I would also add, I think it's been very humbling, like you shared just seeing Steiner, how he's so inquisitive. He'll ask me tons of questions when we went to Little Saigon the other day and met with ethnic specific agency. And so I think it feels really freeing and liberating for me as a faculty. We don't have to carry our titles around. Right. But we're all learners. And I think that growth mindset is going to take this project pretty far because we're not afraid to ask questions and to challenge ourselves and change things up as needed. Right. And I think that's a pretty good modeling for the students too because I noticed how the students feel very comfortable sharing their experience, asking questions and the faculty on our end as well. It's been really nice and humbling, um, for us on our part, so I don't think it's just you who's, um, asking tons of questions, but we also have a lot that we don't know and I'm learning quite a lot. Um, um, thank you.
The big thing is that I feel that it's not just producing something for the students, it's also that ourselves as faculty, we are, uh, developing ourselves and the project is going to be a course for the students and students are going to learn a lot, but just the whole team's just learning so much, uh, before we are finished with the product that's so great. Well, thank you all for being on this episode.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Lovely.
Yeah.