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The Still Human Podcast is for teachers, leaders and school staff navigating the realities of working in education today.
Hosted by Julie Liddell and part of Edwin People's wellbeing and culture offering, this podcast features thoughtful conversations with teachers, principals, psychologists, authors and education leaders exploring what matters most: leadership in schools, staff culture, workload, burnout and sustainability.
Each episode focuses on supporting the people behind the roles, because thriving educational communities start with looking after the humans within them.
Still Human delivers training, workshops and strategic support for staff wellbeing and thriving cultures. Edwin People provide strategic leadership and HR services that help schools and multi-academy trusts grow confidently with people-centred solutions. Both part of the Edwin group, we work together to positively impact the lives of young people.
Learn more at www.stillhuman.co.uk and www.edwinpeople.co.uk
[00:00:00] Welcome to the Still Human Podcast, where we dive deep into the heart of staff wellbeing within the education sector. In each episode, we bring to the table a diverse array of guests, including experienced teachers and leaders, experts in psychology, health and wellbeing, as well as thought leaders in the sector.
[00:00:16] Whether you are looking for practical tips, inspirational stories. Our innovative approaches to wellbeing, our podcast aims to support, inspire and [00:00:25] empower those dedicated to nurturing the next generation. I'm your host, Julie Liddell, and today I'm chatting to Steve Munby. Steve is a highly sought after speaker on leadership and systems reform based in the uk.
[00:00:39] He works with governments and with groups of schools around the world. He has spent his whole career in education commencing as a secondary school teacher in Birmingham, and later becoming Director of Education for [00:00:50] Knowsley Local Education Authority in Merseyside. Steve was chief executive of the National College for School Leadership in England for eight years, and then Chief Executive of Education Development Trust and International Education Charity working in Asia, India, Africa, the Middle Eastern Europe.
[00:01:08] Steve is also the facilitator for the ARC Summit's education systems from around the world committed to equity, [00:01:15] excellence, wellbeing, and social justice. He's a visiting professor at University College London Center for Education Leadership, and is author two books in perfect leadership. And imperfect leadership in action, and also recently co-edited a book with David Cameron and Mick Waters entitled Unfinished Business.
[00:01:35] It was great to chat to Steve today and hear his wisdom around imperfect leadership. [00:01:40] In this episode, we discussed leading with vulnerability. Self-awareness and with love and kindness, as well as being introduced to the phrase that some leaders want to drink their own bath water and learning about Steve's love of music.
[00:01:53] Enjoy.
[00:01:58] Steve, good morning. It's such a pleasure to have you with us. How are you? Great, thank you. Nice to talk to you, Julie. [00:02:05] Good. Good. So Steve, you are a respected education leader, a coveted speaker and author of Imperfect Leadership. Um, a book that I know has resonated with so many, um, people just for its honesty.
[00:02:21] And you mane sort of in that book, I know that you champion vulnerability, relational leadership, and compassion. Um, and [00:02:30] there're themes that I wanna pick up on today. But I wonder, can we just start with just a little. Potted history of yourself, how you kind of came to be writing this book and, and being where you are now.
[00:02:41] Okay. Well, I've worked in education all my life. I started off as a teacher first two or three years as a teacher, I wasn't that good. I struggled. Uh, I, I struggled to manage my classrooms. I got better though. So it shows you can [00:02:55] overcome a, a bad start many years later, becoming director of education for our local authority, which was in Noseley on Merseyside, which was one of the most challenging authorities in the country.
[00:03:06] A very poor area just outside Liverpool. Uh, and, um, it was a T before academies came along. So in those days, local authorities had. A huge amount of responsibility, uh, and authority. And then I went [00:03:20] from there to be chief exec at the National Cloud fiscal leadership in England, which was, um, no longer exists, but at the time was responsible for the leadership development for all the school leaders in England.
[00:03:30] 24,000 schools. And even on top of that, the directors of children's services too and their, their aspirant directors as well as chairs of Governors. So that was a huge job. Uh, and then after that I went to be chief executive, an international [00:03:45] organization, not-for-profit, called Education Development Trust.
[00:03:47] We working in Africa, Asia, uh, middle East, Europe, all over. And that was a real honor and privilege. So a very tough job too. And, uh, after that, I, um. I just work for myself now, but I did, um, write a book a few years ago, imperfect Leadership, A book for leaders who know they don't know it all, and people said, I shouldn't call it that, 'cause no one would wanna buy a book about [00:04:10] imperfect leadership.
[00:04:10] But I called it that because it was the best term I could think of to describe my own leadership. And the book is not a hero leadership book at all. It's the opposite. I actually found leadership quite hard. I found it very challenging at times. Uh, I found sometimes I got really stressed by it. I made mistakes.
[00:04:28] I wrote in the book about my own leadership journey, mistakes that I made, things I got right, things I could have done better, and [00:04:35] how gradually over time I became a better leader. And I've got this idea that if we think we have to be perfect as leaders, I end up making ourselves ill. Either physically or mentally.
[00:04:46] If we think we have to be perfect as leaders, we'll we won't delegate. We'll do it all ourselves. And if we think we have to be perfect as leaders, we won't encourage others to be leaders. They have to be perfect as well. We'll put them off. So I called the book in perfectly [00:05:00] 'cause the best term I can think of to describe around leadership.
[00:05:02] I love that. And I think very early on in the book, there was one of your statements that I loved and it said, my name is Steve Munby and I am an imperfect and incomplete leader. Uh, and I think that kind of sums up, doesn't it? What you've just sort of said there. Um, so I wonder whether we could just think about that.
[00:05:23] What does it mean then? What does it [00:05:25] mean in its broadest sense to be an imperfect leader? Okay, well first of all, we should celebrate it. We shouldn't be apologizing for it. It's a great thing to be an imperfect leader. I'm proud to be an imperfect leader. Secondly, I think it's about knowing yourself, knowing what you're good at.
[00:05:46] And what you're not so good at, understanding your strengths [00:05:50] and your areas for improvement. And that's a huge part of, of this really to honest, because you can't improve as a leader unless you know what you're not so good at. Uh uh. And I think self-awareness is the heart of imperfect leadership. I think also because you are imperfect as a leader and you know you're imperfect, you know, you can't do it on your own.
[00:06:09] Uh, because you haven't got all the strengths and all the skills, so you have to have a team around you and [00:06:15] therefore you don't try and be a perfect leader, but you do try and create a more perfect team. And that, that's fundamental to what I'm talking about here, because if you think you're perfect, you do it yourself.
[00:06:26] Yeah. You become the hero. Uh, and everyone kind of gives you all the floor because you are the hero leader. But if you know you're imperfect, you'll build a sense of collective responsibility. You'll build a sense of distributive leadership. It'll be a whole organization working [00:06:40] together rather than one person trying to do it all.
[00:06:42] And that's fundamental to what I'm talking about here. I think also because you are imperfect and you know you're imperfect, you're okay about asking for help. In fact, you think it's a good idea to ask for help if you think you're perfect. You think, well, why do I need to ask for help? Uh, but if you think you're imper, you'll say, I need help.
[00:06:59] So you need help externally. So you get mentors and advisors and coaches. And you bring that expertise in [00:07:05] so you can make better decisions. You ask for help internally. It's a collective mission, not just an individual hero leadership mission. Uh, and, and because you are asking for help, you are prepared to show that you're vulnerable.
[00:07:18] And of course a lot of, um, leaders don't like that 'cause it feels, they feel, um, um, that, that people won't follow them if they think they're vulnerable. It's actually the opposite is true. If you are prepared to show you're vulnerable, then other [00:07:30] people are more likely to also show that they're vulnerable.
[00:07:33] I think another aspect of imperfect leadership is that, um, if we try and lead with no confidence, with a very low ego. It's a nightmare to, to be led by someone with no confidence because, uh, you always kind of prop them up. Uh, and they're always trying to look to their team for approval all the time.
[00:07:50] They never see things through. Uh, so it's having low confidence as a leader [00:07:55] is not good. It's not good, but some people go the other way. And have too much confidence. Uh, and they think they know it all. Uh, and especially if they get some success and they think they can drink their own bath water. And um, and, and that's a nightmare too, because you can't challenge them.
[00:08:13] They're not open to questions. They just do it their way, their way only. Either a very authoritarian, [00:08:20] dictatorial kind of leadership or you end up with complacency 'cause no one can challenge the leader. So I, I, I'm arguing for an imperfect leadership whereby you haven't got a tiny ego, but you haven't got an inflated ego.
[00:08:33] Uh, as someone who has got an inflated ego will hate it when their team get the praise. Someone with a, with an okay ego, who've got an imperfect leadership mindset, love it [00:08:45] when their team get the praise. That's the difference I'm talking about there. I could go on. I mean, imper leaders, uh, they're, they're learners.
[00:08:52] They're not the finished article. They can always improve. So they're constantly trying to improve, learn, look outwards, be open-minded, and try to be better at what they do. Rather thinking that, that they've, they've got all sorted news, carry on doing what they've always done. Leaders believe in developing other leaders.
[00:09:09] Because [00:09:10] no one's perfect. So they encourage, rather than put people off, rather than saying, you are not ready. Let's say, how can I help you to be ready? Uh, so that they see it as a big part of their role to develop future leaders and perfect leaders, um, lead with love as well as power. Power's important because you won't get, by power, I mean drive relentlessness.
[00:09:31] And it's important because you won't get change without the aspect of [00:09:35] your leadership. But they also lead with love, which is kindness, empathy, compassion, understanding, being invitational, asking for help. And they combine both of those in their leadership 'cause they know everyone's imperfect. And I would say imperfect leaders are authentic.
[00:09:51] They're trying to be the best version of themselves. They know they'll never be perfect, but they're try to be the best, authentic view of themselves. So that's a quick summary of the kind of things [00:10:00] I think about via perfect leadership. Absolutely. And there, there's kind of several questions in there, so I wonder whether we could pick up on some of those themes.
[00:10:08] I wanna kind of come back to self-awareness. I wanna come back to vulnerability and leading with this kind of love and kindness. Um, I wonder, before I do that, was there a moment in your career when you realized that. Owning your imperfections made you a better leader? Was there [00:10:25] kind of a single definitive, um, moment or was that just a viewpoint that you developed over time?
[00:10:31] Obviously you said that you didn't think you were a very good teacher to start with owning that kind of honesty. So was there a single moment or is this just, um, a perspective that's built over time? I suppose there's two things, Julie. One is that, um, I've always had an element of self doubt and I [00:10:50] realized.
[00:10:51] Later on in my leadership that that was a good thing. I didn't necessarily think it was a good thing at first. I thought it might be a bad thing. Uh, you know, this idea of imposter syndrome, I've always had that, but it was, it was later in my leadership, I realized that was a, that was a, a good thing rather than a bad thing.
[00:11:07] And I think the reason that I learned that was because I became chief exec of the National College for School Leadership. Which is a very big [00:11:15] job, a very high profile job, and I suddenly have the responsibility for providing, uh, some kind of leadership for 24,000 school leaders in England. So I began to think much more carefully about the leadership.
[00:11:32] I was doing and the leadership I was modeling, uh, and I, I began, I gave every, [00:11:40] every year I gave a big speech at, at a conference in Birmingham to, you know, over a thousand school leaders. And it was a different speech every year. 'cause the same PE people turned up. So every year I couldn't just repeat the old speech, nothing worse.
[00:11:53] Brand new speech every year about the leadership challenges that year. And the kind of leadership I felt was needed in our system. And I start, I was talking [00:12:05] to 'em about, I was thinking carefully and a reflective way about leadership, really possibly for the first time, you know, what kind of leadership leader should we be?
[00:12:16] And so I did a lot of self-reflection. And when I was talking in those speeches about the importance of authenticity. The importance of kindness, the importance of empathy, the importance of integrity, the importance [00:12:30] of moral purpose. I knew that my, all my staff or team were watching as well as all the head teachers.
[00:12:37] I knew it'd be the grossest form of ego. To talk say to that, to the school leaders about the importance of integrity and moral purpose and authenticity and not practice it myself. 'cause they would hold me to account for that. So it helped me to be a better leader. But by doing that [00:12:55] reflection in that role as chiefest deck of the national college, that's what I really began to understand the power of vulnerability.
[00:13:02] And that's when I made that statement in a speech to all those head teachers. My name is Steve Mby. I'm chief executive at National College of Leadership. I'm legal leader and it's okay. And is that reflection, it's that ability to be reflective. 'cause I think when you're in the trenches just doing the do, [00:13:20] then it can be quite hard, can't it?
[00:13:21] To understand what your perspective and philosophy is. So to be able to kind of reflect back and, and as you said, build up this. Picture of what leadership could look like and how, how they could be impactful. But I think if I go back to that sort of point about reflection, and you mentioned earlier about self-awareness.
[00:13:42] I personally believe we should be building. [00:13:45] Self-awareness into all leadership training, um, and particularly middle leadership I think is where we need to be doing some work as well. Um, so do you agree with that? Obviously you, you agree that self-awareness is important, but how might we do it effectively?
[00:14:01] Any thoughts around that? Yeah. Um, when I was chief executive at the National College, we had something called NPQH, the National [00:14:10] Professional Qualification for Headship. It was my name on the certificate. Everyone got, uh, and the Secretary of State at the time, which was a, a labor government. Um, it was Ed Balls who was Secretary of State.
[00:14:25] Uh, he decided that they were gonna make NPQH compulsory. So during that period, he'd been going for years. But during that [00:14:35] period, anyone who wanted to become a head teacher for the first time had to have a qualification, a legal requirement. The trouble was, too many people had it already, who weren't ready for headship.
[00:14:47] They were going for, they had the qualification, they'd been done, the program, they were going for interviews, not getting any, and clearly not ready or even not any even interested in becoming a ED teacher, but they had the qualification. [00:15:00] So we had to find a way, especially if it's gonna be a legal requirement, have found a way of making NBQH so people would be ready for headship if they got the qualification.
[00:15:10] And one of the big things we changed. Was, we made it a requirement of the, if you applying to come on the program, everyone had to do 360 feedback. And when you got the feedback from, [00:15:25] uh, the facilitator about what your colleagues thought about you as a leader, if you recognized the feedback, could identify with the feedback.
[00:15:34] Were keen to work on any areas for improvement you got on the program. If you didn't recognize the feedback or were defensive about any areas for improvement, you didn't get on the program because our view was self-awareness was [00:15:50] fundamental to being an effective school leader, and that was not the only criteria we used, but one of the most important criteria we used to try and make Ambigu weight a qualification that make you ready for headship.
[00:16:02] Yeah. Yeah. And absolutely fundamental. I think, um, I was just that the, is it leaders North Thyself or Amid, or practitioners, north thyself. Um, [00:16:15] that kind of seems to, to kind of. Be stuck in my head when you were, you were speaking there. We work with a lot of people around mindfulness and mindfulness tools for one, for another word, you know, cultivate self-awareness.
[00:16:28] And I think it's that, you know, and I think you said earlier on, it's that accepting and knowing new strengths as well as recognizing and accepting your weaknesses and knowing where you can develop and grow and you know, I [00:16:40] think absolutely. You know, so important in that role of leadership. So you talked about vulnerability.
[00:16:45] You've talked about vulnerability a lot, really, and I know that's kind of at the heart, isn't it? About imperfect leadership that we need to learn from our mistakes rather than hiding from them. We know that fundamentally all humans want to feel safe. That is it. We sleep better when we feel safe. We thrive when we feel safe.
[00:17:04] Um, [00:17:05] and that actually, um, as leaders sort of modeling that vulnerability can create this psychological safety in communities for staff. So is there anything else that. Could be done from a leader's perspective to kind of cultivate that school culture where it genuinely feels safe to be vulnerable? Or is modeling kind of the [00:17:30] best way forward from a leader's perspective, I think modeling's very, very important, uh, because if you want a team to trust each other and to feel okay about.
[00:17:43] Making mistakes to feel okay about welcoming challenge to have a kind of, you know, when you have a trusting team. It's so fabulous. Just 'cause you can cut corners. Everyone, everyone [00:17:55] can get on with things. They know that their people will be watching their back if they make mistakes and one else will pick it up.
[00:18:00] It's a powerful thing to have a trusting team. So the issue is how would you get that trusting team, whether it's a middle leadership or in senior leadership, how do you get that trusting team? And I think one of the, we cannot expect a team to trust each other to, unless we model it ourselves. And if that's the most [00:18:20] important thing actually, Judy, because as a leader, when we're kind of running a team, we seem, we think, well we, we have to show that we know it all.
[00:18:27] We have to think that they have confidence in us. 'cause we know what to do all the time and we never make mistakes. It's the opposite. If we, if we don't model that, we make mistakes. If we don't model that, we need to ask for help. We'll never get a team that feels okay about doing that. We'll never get a team that feels [00:18:45] okay about asking for help.
[00:18:46] Uh, I, I've really come unstuck in the past on this. You know, I remember when I was, um, first a director of education. Uh, and we had a requirement to produce a three year plan from the government, uh, to how we're gonna improve our schools. And this was every three years. Uh, and I'd just become the director.
[00:19:07] But in my previous authority as [00:19:10] assistant director, I'd written that plan. For the previous authority, it was very high stakes. 'cause if you didn't write a good plan, you got monitored or even intervened with, uh, and maybe even lose your job. So it was very high stakes and I'd written a plan for the, in my previous authority and, and got great feedback and we've done very well.
[00:19:28] So now I'm in charge of the whole organization in a different place. I delegate it to the person in charge of school improvement [00:19:35] and I say, this is the one I did three years ago. Got really good feedback. Let me know if you need any help. And off she went. Uh, and she took months and, and eventually I insisted that she show it to me and she brought it to me three weeks before the deadline and she'd hardly done anything.
[00:19:50] It was a disaster. So we had to, you know, de Alize everyone to write this plan quickly be to get it submitted in time to meet the Go Government's deadline. But [00:20:00] the question for me was this. I had delegated responsibility to a senior member of staff to do a task, a big task that she wasn't capable of doing without help, and I had not modeled that.
[00:20:16] Asking for help was okay, and as a result, she didn't feel okay about asking for help until eventually it all blew up in her face. [00:20:25] So it's really important, this, it's not just a, a nice thing to say how we model. To our team that we make mistakes that we don't get it right, that we need to ask for help.
[00:20:38] It's so important. Otherwise, they'll never feel okay about doing it themselves. So I do think modeling is, there are other things you can do, uh, about how you've set up. Feedback mechanisms, uh, 360 [00:20:50] feedback, uh, how you set up systems that, um, encouraged the right kinds of behaviors, but ultimately I think modeling's very, very important.
[00:20:58] Yeah, you're still human, right? I think, uh, our company name always comes in handy, but that kind of, it's that modeling of still human. Um, and I think that is essential there. So in the book, you also emphasize that leadership is relational rather than positional. What does that look like? On a [00:21:15] day to day basis in a, in a school setting?
[00:21:17] Well, to be honest, I think first of all, I think leadership is about influencing people. Whatever, whatever role you're in, you can be a, a support assistant in a classroom and, and be a leader. You can be a, you know, whatever role you are in an organization, you can still be a leader because it's about influencing people and, uh, and how you influence people from [00:21:40] whatever role you've got.
[00:21:41] Uh, so that's the first thing to say. And secondly, you will never get things done unless people want to follow you, unless people to listen to what you have to say. Uh, and you do that through empathy, through love, as well as power in your leadership through understanding where they're coming from. As well as where you are coming from and that's at the heart I think, of good [00:22:05] leadership and I really worry sometimes that occasionally come across leaders who don't get that.
[00:22:09] They think it's about, I make the decision and you do the implementation. They don't think it's about how I build up a relationship with the people I'm working with so that they actually feel valued and they want to follow and they want to be part of it. That I think something great about leadership, great leadership is that people [00:22:30] want to be engaged with you.
[00:22:32] They're excited by what you're trying to do. It's compelling. It's not just, I tell you to do this and you have to do it, but you try to make it compelling that there's something that they're part of and they're having to shape, not just on the receiving end on. And that's what I suppose I mean by relational leadership.
[00:22:49] Yeah. And a couple of those themes came through, um, already paper, a new paradigm for leadership [00:22:55] development and certainly the themes that kind of came through. Well, what you just touched on there around kind of leading with power and love, um, which I know you've al already briefly touched on. And the other thing that came through, I think both in your book and on that paper was touching on this compassion being kind to others.
[00:23:14] So. In terms of leading with power, love, and leading with [00:23:20] compassion, have you ever experienced any eye rolling in responses from anyone with regards to those sentiments? Have they ever been seen as fluffy and unnecessary? Okay. Uh, can I have a long answer to this question? Yes, please. First of all, first of all, this is not easy, uh, and, um, there's plenty of times when I've got it wrong.
[00:23:43] Uh, and I know that the, I've [00:23:45] upset people in my leadership, uh, where I've not handled things well, and so it's not like, oh, it's a dead straightforward thing, you know, being a compassionate leader, you just, it's just like a, a wonderful kind of yellow brick road stuff, and you, it all, everyone loves each other.
[00:24:00] It's not like that, actually, it's very tough. And I'm not talking about being kind to everybody and being just nice all the time because [00:24:10] actually leadership is, is hard. It's complex. Some people will be out to cause trouble in an organization sometimes, so it's not just like, let's all be nice and have a big hug.
[00:24:21] Okay. It is about believing in people. It's about trusting people. It's about assuming that they're behaving well. You start off with that assumption that they're trustworthy you. You might [00:24:35] change your mind after a while, but you don't start off assuming they have to prove to you they're trustworthy. You start off assuming that they are trustworthy.
[00:24:41] And they are to be, uh, valued. But that's your assumption and you treat everyone with, with that idea of, of unconditional positive regard. That's a fundamental, but it's hard. It's not easy. And in terms of the question you were asking me, I think. There was a, the paper I wrote about, um, [00:25:00] a, a new, new perspective on, on leadership development when we were at the national college doing programs like NPQH, we did focus quite a bit on the idea of the softer side of leadership.
[00:25:13] Things like, um, how you motivate people, uh, coaching, uh, chairing meetings, having conversations, uh, those kind of things. And [00:25:25] uh, more recently there's been a focus on the technical. Side of leadership development. So what do you do about the curriculum? What do you do about pedagogy, what to do about behavior management?
[00:25:37] The kind of knowledge, problem solving aspect of leadership. And I get why that's important. I get that being a leader of a school is different from being a, a leader of a, um, of a [00:25:50] company. I get that. And you need to have those technical skills and you have that understanding and that expertise. I get that, but sometimes I think it's gone too far the other way.
[00:25:59] Uh, and, and it's just about the technical. And I worry if it's just about the technical. We have people who know what to do, but not how to do it. They'll know the technical answer, the technical decision, but not how to [00:26:15] take people with them. They'll know the transactional aspect, but not the relational aspect.
[00:26:20] And I think both are important. And actually think in leadership development, we should emphasize both of those things. The technical, yes, if you wanna train to be a, a, a middle leader or a head teacher, whatever, in a school, then you need to understand. Pedagogy, behavior management curriculum, et cetera. Of course you do, but also you need to understand how to motivate people, [00:26:40] how to chair meetings, how to, how to have that relational leadership, and that can be taught as well.
[00:26:46] That should be part of a leadership development program. It's not just the fluffy stuff. And sometimes people will dismiss what I'm talking about as being just, well, it's just about being nice. It's not just about being nice. It's actually hard work to get it right. You have to practice. You have to develop that, those skills and that expertise.[00:27:05]
[00:27:05] And it's sometimes quite tough to try and implement it. Yeah, I often think that the soft skills are actually some of the hardest, aren't they? To, you know, not only to develop, but to execute as well. And you know, like, like RI said, you know, you don't get it right all the time. There's kind of Buddhist philosophies in there, isn't there?
[00:27:23] That kept kind of springing to mind, particularly around that kind of imperfection and. Also [00:27:30] around kind of intention. You can kind of intentionally lead with kindness, but it doesn't mean that you always get it right, but always look at the intention of people's behavior, um, is super important. It also reminded me a bit of parenting when you were talking there as well.
[00:27:43] I was thinking like that unconditional positive regard is absolutely what you aspire to, but sometimes, you know, don't always get it right. But I do think there [00:27:55] is still a. Section of people who look at those skills and think that they're fluffy and think that they're not needed. Whereas actually, you know, what you are saying is, you know, they are really valued and actually they're all part of being that leader.
[00:28:11] Um, so anything else in that book then? Anything else that stands out that we should be having [00:28:20] conversations with leaders about? Yeah, fundamentally. I'm arguing for an imperfect mindset and I think mindset as you know, Julie, 'cause this is part of your work mindset is really important. I think when I was a younger leader, I focused predominantly on what to do, you know, what strategy to have, what policy to have, what, how to implement this, how to do that well.[00:28:45]
[00:28:45] And I focused less on how to be. I focused more on what to do and less on how to be. And as I became more experienced as a leader, especially when I was at the National College thinking about leadership, I, I began to think it was just as important to think about how to be as well as what to do, what, how am I gonna show up?
[00:29:04] How are people, what are people gonna make of me when I walk into a meeting? How am I gonna behave? [00:29:10] What's my mindset? What's needed for me in this meeting as opposed to that meeting? What's needed for me in this context as opposed to that context? And to do be, become a bit more of a reflective leader about being rather than just doing.
[00:29:24] I think that's a very important message. I, I think the, the other. Really important message here is that it's possible to adopt a different kind of mindset, [00:29:35] especially when it's challenging. And the two of the most obvious kind of mindsets you can adopt, apart from the imperfect mindset. The first one is the victim mindset.
[00:29:44] And the victim mindset says, um, I don't like what's happening to me. All these ex nasty external things, and it's their fault, not mine, and I'm powerless. I can't do anything about it. So I blame them. It's not me, it's them. [00:30:00] And if, if it wasn't for this nasty, uh, school leader or this nasty government or this nasty whatever, I'd be able to do what I, I'd be able to do well, but I can't because of these things that are happening externally.
[00:30:11] And that's quite attractive actually as a mindset because um, it makes you feel, you navigate responsibility. You can't be able to account 'cause no one could do any better. You're just powerless. It's not your fault. And [00:30:25] also you can actually have the moral high ground. Because, um, those nasty people, I wanna, I'm a good person.
[00:30:31] I wanna do the right thing. Those nasty people are preventing me from doing it. So they're the baddies and I'm a good. So the victim mindset is attractive. People can easily get into it, especially in a challenging situation, but ultimately it doesn't get you anywhere. 'cause no one wants to follow you if you've got a victim mindset because it's [00:30:50] hopeless.
[00:30:51] Uh, and then the other kind of mindset you're gonna have, which is just as dangerous, is the hero mindset. The mindset says, I don't like what's happening all around me. And it's up to me alone to sort it all. So I have to sort everything, and if it's not good enough, it's my fault. So if we haven't got enough resources, I've gotta find more resources.
[00:31:10] If we haven't, if morale's not good enough, I've gotta build morale. It will, if the [00:31:15] attendance has gone down in school, I've gotta find a way of acoustic. It's all down to me, not to my team, just to me. In fact, I, I, I protect my team by. Sending them home. But I just work harder and harder, longer and longer hours myself to try and sort out all the problems.
[00:31:30] Now, that's an attractive mindset as well because people tell you you're wonderful. People say, oh, we can't do without you. The organization wouldn't be able to exist without you being doing what you're doing. [00:31:40] We need you so much. You're so important. So it feeds our ego. The is, first of all, it has two problems with it.
[00:31:45] One is it doesn't empower people. It disempowers people. 'cause it's all down to the hero. The hero doesn't ask for help. 'cause that would, that would show that they're, they're vulnerable and they can't do that. 'cause they wanna be a hero. So they disempower people. They do all themselves, and secondly, they get burnout.
[00:32:03] They end up being stressed out and burnt out. [00:32:05] So that's why I think the imperfect leadership mindset is so crucial, especially in times of challenge because the imperial leadership mindset says, I'll focus on the things I can make a difference with. Not things I have no influence over, but I can make a difference, but I can't do it on my own.
[00:32:23] I can do it with my colleagues, I can do it, we can do it together. We have agency together to make a difference, and we can [00:32:30] ask for help because it's okay to ask for help, get help from external people, get help internally. And so that mindset of, of, um, being imperfect is a counteract to the victim mindset or the human mindset.
[00:32:43] And I think that's really, really important, especially in times of great challenge. Yeah, it's that control the controllables, isn't it? Um, as you were talking there, there's um, a theory by Carman that came out in the [00:32:55] sixties, the drama triangle. I'm not sure whether you've, you've read that theory, but it's really worth a look.
[00:33:01] And it talks about how, you know, we're, we're often playing one of three positions in our interactions. The first being the victim, uh, where we feel powerless and. It's, it's kind of, there's nothing we can do about it. And the second in that rescuer mode where we think like it's up to us to solve it [00:33:20] all.
[00:33:20] And then the third is that persecutor, which blames an attacks. And actually that is a theory. Exactly what you are saying there can explain like. Team dynamics and how you can get locked into, you know, certain dramas. Because by taking on that role of either victim or rescuer, as you said, that then shifts the dynamic with the rest of the team.
[00:33:43] And it goes back to what you were [00:33:45] saying earlier, that with that level of self-awareness and recognizing that you are. In those mindsets or in those kind of frames of mind, that's when you can actually change, isn't it? That's when you can make that decision to change that mindset and that behavior. I think you absolutely agree with that, Julie.
[00:34:04] You can change. The trouble is a lot of people don't want to change, but if you really want to change [00:34:10] and you've got that self-awareness, you can change. You can. That mindset. You can work on that and, and, and change your habits. But it's, it's, you have to understand, you have to have the awareness first.
[00:34:21] Yes. And you have to want it to be different. And I know I've been a, in a hero mindset in the past in some, some of my leadership roles, and sometimes I've been in the victim. Uh, and you have to work hard to be in the imperfect mindset, but it's a, it's a [00:34:35] good mindset to be in. Yeah. Because, because it's not all your fault.
[00:34:39] Yes, it's a collective thing, okay? Yes. Uh, and you can be authentic and you're less lonely. That self-awareness, that self-knowledge leads to self-leadership, doesn't it? But as you say, not everybody wants to change. It's not that easy to change either, is it? You know, you've worn this. Certain way of thinking for a long time.
[00:34:58] It can be hard just to go, [00:35:00] okay, I'm now just gonna think differently. I'm now just gonna kind of take that off and that's where the work needs to be done is what I'm hearing. You know, from what you are saying here, that's kind of important work to be done in that role of leader. I think it helps a great deal if you have a privilege of working with someone who has that kind of mindset.
[00:35:18] If they're, if they're, if they're leading the organization or they're leading your team, you see them operate [00:35:25] in the kind of showing love as well as power, uh, showing empathy, admitting mistakes, practicing that in perfect leadership mindset, it's much, it's easier for you to then think, oh, well, I, I can do that.
[00:35:39] You don't have to be perfect to be a good leader. But if, if all the models you see are people saying, I know, or I'm a hero, I'm resource it all. Uh, don't, don't argue with me. I know what I'm [00:35:50] doing, then it's, it's harder to, to feel comfortable in the imperfect leadership mindset. So modeling's very, very important.
[00:35:57] Absolutely. So there's a lot of research that's sort of coming out at present. Um, a lot of statistics around the wellbeing of people in leadership, um, positions. So if we look at stress, for example, I think the figure is 78% of. [00:36:15] Staff across all roles in education experiencing high levels of stress. But that goes up to the high eighties when we look at leadership.
[00:36:22] So I wonder if we could just think for a moment about leaders as managers of other people's wellbeing and kind of struggling to look after their own wellbeing at the same time. And it's definitely a theme that keeps coming up. Do you have any thoughts around that? How can [00:36:40] leaders look after. Their own wellbeing whilst sort of supporting and holding space for others and still leading wellbeing.
[00:36:47] That's a great point. Uh, a few things to say on that. Many years ago, I went on a leadership program in as a delegate at, uh, INSEAD in Fond BLE in France for a month. For, it was for executive leaders of companies. Uh, and I was the only educationist there. [00:37:05] And, um, as part of the program, we had to do 360 feedback, two types of 360 feedback.
[00:37:12] The first was from colleagues and board members and people you work with, which I was used to. But the second was 360 feedback from friends and family. So when I got on the program, I got the feedback from the facilitator about what my colleagues thought about me, and [00:37:30] it was pretty good. I was really pleased with it.
[00:37:32] Um, there was, there was lots of positives there, some areas I needed to work on, but I was aware of those. I felt good about it. Then I got the feedback from friends and family. It wasn't good at all. It said I was too stressed, I wasn't sleeping well, I was tired. I didn't give them enough attention. And I, I worked out, what was happening was I was going to work and trying to be best self [00:37:55] and coming back and not being my best self.
[00:37:58] And it was my family and friends that were on the receiving end of that. And I had to do some serious reflection, uh, at the time to try and get a better balance. In my kind of perspective, because I realized that my personal life was also very important, not just my work life and I had to get the right perspective.
[00:38:18] And I did make some [00:38:20] decisions then, which I pretty much kept to for the rest of my career as a leader, to have a better work life balance. And I actually think I was arguably a better leader, not a worse leader for, for making those decisions. And I did create more time. I did create more time for family and I, I did it, you know, in a thoughtful way and I was, uh, better with my family and friend as a result.
[00:38:44] [00:38:45] Not always. Not always. I still got it wrong sometimes, and I still had times of great stress, but I was overall better a result of that decision. So I think feedback is such an important thing. Feedback not just from work, but feedback from home too, and how we get that balance is really important. And I think if you're a leader and you understand that.
[00:39:06] You understand that few people live simple and complicated [00:39:10] lives, and if you ask people to do things in work context, it might have a knock on impact for what happens in their personal life. So, so, so having. And understanding of that is first of all, very important and having some openness about that, especially with your close colleagues.
[00:39:29] So you are aware of any issues that will be challenging for them from [00:39:35] outside their work situation, whatever. It's, whether they have caring responsibilities, whether they have, uh, children or whatever it is they've got, you're aware of that and can be sensitive to that. I always found that, um. When I was a leader, some of my senior team worked longer hours than others, but it didn't necessarily mean that they were better or more, more effective at the role.
[00:39:56] Some were just better at, at managing, managing the time better. [00:40:00] Uh, so I don't think we should, we should be w we of creating a longer hours culture. We should be aware of creating the RA's culture and it's easy to do, especially if, if as the leader we've got more time than they have. If we model that. Uh, they feel that, oh, even though they have all these caring responsibilities, they're supposed to work all these hours too.
[00:40:21] I think that's dangerous. So we should be very clear about that. And, and [00:40:25] they'll watch what you do, not what you say. Yeah. So if you tell 'em to go home and not to work so hard, they'll take no notice of that if you don't go home. Yeah. So the watch what you do rather than what you say. So it's modeling again is really, really important.
[00:40:37] There. It's, it's kind of like when you look at kind of shine's model of building culture. You've got the visibility and you know, if you've got a policy that says no emails after this time, or as you say there's like, [00:40:50] you know, everybody's encouraged you to leave, but you are the one as a leader, still sat there and sending emails at, you know, one o'clock in the morning.
[00:40:56] Um, that is more powerful. Isn't it? But I love what you said about doing that 360 degree review with your friends and family. I think that's just genius. I think everybody should do that. Um, did you do a follow up though? 'cause you said you got better. Did you check to see if there'd been impact? Well, there was no [00:41:15] formal 360 follow up, but I did.
[00:41:18] I definitely knew. I definitely knew. But things were better because I just created more time. I created more time for my elderly mother. Yeah, I created more time for my friends and I certainly created more time for my close family. Love that. I think that should be absolutely mandatory, um, for everyone.
[00:41:35] You open every chapter in imperfect leadership with a song lyric. [00:41:40] So there's Bob Dylan, Leonard Cohen, Johnny Nash, my personal favorite, Carol King. This is not the first time that music has come up on this podcast. I had, uh, Kazie Fifth Stone with her punk leadership book. Um, and Hal Roberts, I think as well, uses that kind of lyric and reference to music.
[00:41:58] Does music play a big role in your life? Huge, huge. Tell me [00:42:05] about it. Well, first of all, it was really important to get the, those lyrics into the book. Even though I had to work really hard on copyright issues to get permission from people like Bob Dylan and Leonard Cohen estate to, to put those quotes in, I very, very important.
[00:42:20] There's a huge thing my life, and I think music is, helps you connect with your emotions. Uh, and your memories too. Uh, and I think it's, um, [00:42:30] therapeutic. It helps to de-stress and yeah, I'm a, I'm a huge fan. I love, love music and it's, um, the lyrics are important as well as the, the, the musical side. And that's why in the book, not just in that book, but in other things I've written, uh, unspoken about, find a lot of.
[00:42:48] Reference to lyrics from from songs. Yeah. You know, and I agree. Music's a huge part of my [00:42:55] life and I always, when I was doing handouts for my students when I was teaching, always managed to get a lyric or two in there as well. Not so sure that I checked copyright. Probably should have done that, but maybe it doesn't matter as much.
[00:43:06] It doesn't matter if you're not publishing. Yeah, not publishing it. But I just felt it was my, it was my absolute, um, duty to educate my 16-year-old students about music as well. Um, and, you know, open up that [00:43:20] conversation. Do you like live music as well then, Steve? Is that part of your downtime? Definitely.
[00:43:25] Yeah. Uh, so I'm going to a live music this week. I was in a couple of weeks ago. I was in a, a live music in Liverpool. I'm going to a place in Kendall tonight, uh, this week. So yeah, live music really important too. Love it. Yeah. And it does, doesn't it? It helps you step in and out with those emotions. And I have various kind of playlists [00:43:45] that allow you to do that.
[00:43:46] And yeah, as you said, it's the music and the lyrics. CF good. I needed to ask you about that. So our final question then, um, Steve, we asked the same final question to all of our guests. I'd like to ask you for a piece of wisdom. If there was one thing that you could suggest for our listeners that they could do for themselves today, what would it be?
[00:44:09] I [00:44:10] would say, um. It depends on their context, of course, but I would say, I think one thing I, I've learned a lot from myself is to be kind to myself, especially when I've made a mistake. Sometimes, uh, I remember someone saying that if I, if I treated my other people as hard as I treat myself as a leader, I'd be in disciplinary proceedings all the time.[00:44:35]
[00:44:35] Uh, 'cause I beat myself up far too much. So I think when we make a mistake, which we will do on a regular basis, 'cause that's our life is 'cause we're human. When we make a mistake, reflect upon it, learn from it, but be kind to yourself. As if you're a close friend to yourself, not an external person who's gonna beat you up.
[00:44:54] So be kind to yourself is, is a, is a big message as a leader. It's a, it's a big [00:45:00] job. Don't speak yourself up too much. Gorgeous. Perfect. Steve, thank you so much for an honest and insightful conversation. I think those messages and your thoughts and your wisdom around imperfect leadership are exactly what many school leaders need to hear right now, so thank you very much.
[00:45:20] Thank you Julie.