Tom and Paul read meditations

What is Tom and Paul read meditations?

A lighthearted reading of Marcus Aurelius' Meditations. Join us as we read his private journal from 2,000 years ago and talk about how it makes us feel.

All right, recording in progress.

Good morning, Paul.

Good morning.

Okay, Paul's doing a bit.

He's got a microphone, which
he hasn't been using up until

for a while up until now.

So now he's doing a
sultry low voice, sultry.

That's a great word.

Yeah, you're right.

Okay.

He's done doing it now.

I think he's just, he just did it.

It might be back.

It's good morning.

Okay.

It's a little bit.

Arnold Schwarzenegger too.

I guess maybe just because of the
sentence you just said about being back.

That's what he says.

Yeah.

All right.

Good morning, Paul.

How you doing?

Yeah.

Doing well.

We Tom and I just catch up for
40 minutes before we start this.

Yeah.

So it's just had a delicious
conversation about all the things

that basically I was telling Tom that.

I'm learning how to live life
better and better these days.

Just getting better and better.

Everything's just getting
just better and better.

I don't know when it's going to
stop, Tom, because it's ludicrous.

I'm learning.

I'm just like going for walks.

It's, I haven't seen a cloud in the
sky in two weeks where Upasana and I

are like enjoying our, we're getting
better work life balance and boundaries.

Things are just great.

It's Berkeley that's
underpinning a lot of this.

It sounds like.

Yeah.

Life improvements, but yeah, it's
Berkeley and it's changes, right?

I think there's just
something to be said for me.

I, this'll probably run out at some point.

We'll be like, okay, we want to nest
now or just, we don't want to, we

don't want change anymore, but it's
been really nice having this month

in Amsterdam, like moving back to
Berkeley, enjoying different things.

Because all our houses, all
our Airbnbs are just temporary.

I don't clean.

It's just great.

Like I'm just not responsible.

So we don't have kids.

It's just great.

Everything's so easy.

Yeah.

Yeah, no, I think that's great.

It does also sound to me like a vacation
or your trip to Europe really worked

in the sense of this is what this is
what you had in mind a little bit.

Yeah, you left to go on that trip.

I think it really did.

Yeah, reset.

Yeah check in on the kind of thing what
you still care about when you get back.

Exactly.

It's the kind of thing where beforehand
I was like, I don't need this.

Yeah, yes.

And then you come back and that was wow.

That was nice.

Yeah, I feel relaxed.

Yeah, that's lovely.

I'm happy for you.

Thank you.

What's any, anything stoicism related?

Top of the noggin?

I, one thing came up this week
that I wanted to just run by you.

I'm not sure what my question is,
but it's just a stoicism related

thought that I wanted to get your
reaction to, if you have one.

There's, have you ever heard of
something called the serenity prayer?

Have you heard that phrase before?

You may.

It's like a standard
prayer in Christianity.

Yes.

And it's.

Weirdly really popular most I think
most famously popularized by Alcoholics

Anonymous actually where they say this
Right this prayer and that I was reminded

of it this week And I think it bears a
relationship to stoicism and I wanted to

I hadn't thought I've thought about that
before and I Wanted to just run it by you.

It's the one that goes
something like Lord.

Give me the serenity to accept Yes things
I cannot change The courage to change

the things I can and the wisdom to know
the difference or something like that.

Perfect.

Yes, I know that one.

And it's amazing.

It's so good.

Yes.

First of all, it rules.

Yes.

It came up, it rules in a conversation
between a partner and me, and we agree

that we both really like it, but she
might made the point, I think totally

correctly, that it's quite stoic.

That it's like it's completely stoic.

Yeah.

It's, I mean it's stoicism in
bo in a bottle is what it's very

boiled down essence of the thing.

But the thing that struck
me about it is that.

There's this bit at the end
that I really like, the wisdom

to know the difference part.

Is something that Marcus talks
about essentially not at all.

And it's a thing that always
frustrates me about him.

Is that for him, and it's
maybe just because he's being

so abstract or whatever.

And he just, he assumes you
already have such wisdom.

But I really the serenity
prayers emphasis on that.

Last bit that it's normal for us humans
not to necessarily have that wisdom.

And we mess up and screw up
because we can't tell which things

are changeable and which aren't.

What's an example, Tom in, for
example, your life where you're, it's

hard to know if this is something I
should be trying to control or not.

I'll say, okay, here's one example.

When I was in my little academic
career, I had this thing about okay,

it was clear after a couple of years
in graduate school that I liked doing

the teaching a lot, but the research,
I was always it didn't feel right.

And I was like, I kept trying to do
slightly different things with it and be

like, maybe I'll like it if I do this.

Maybe I'll like it if, Oh, maybe
this area is more interesting.

Maybe this kind of journal is
more my kind of speed or whatever.

And none of it really
and it took me a while.

I was in denial I think about a bigger
truth of just like it wasn't for me.

The whole area wasn't for me Yeah,
and I think if I had come to the

realization earlier I could have come
to the realization earlier of hey,

wait a minute You've been trying to do
this for a couple years Tom and none

of it feels right Maybe just don't do
it like come up with something else

But it should be like that was like the
wisdom to know the difference because

you were treating it like something The
courage, is that the word, the courage

to control the things I can't control?

Or yeah.

Yes, exactly.

I wasn't short on, on courage
trying shit, but I was short on

wisdom to be like, quit doing this.

Do something else.

And I found it.

I found it after four years, but
it'd be nice to find that sooner.

An example that comes to mind.

It's a really good one.

That's a really good one as you're right.

I originally, when you said
it, I was like, I don't know.

Maybe it's easy to tell the difference,
but now that we're talking about

it, I think you're absolutely right.

It's so hard to tell the difference.

and I think it's so easy to take
for granted that things are in

your control, which are not.

Just, all of life, for example, like
whether you're still alive tomorrow, can

very easily be, go from granted to not.

So you're right.

That's, yeah, that's really meaningful.

I was also thinking about the fact
that this prayer is popular and it is

associated with Alcoholics Anonymous
is interesting that when we started our

discussion of stoicism, I said, okay,
the thing that I associate stoicism

with culturally, at least in the United
States is like the Marines or whatever.

But I do think there's another
place that exists, which is in

Addiction recovery hardship.

Any hardship needs this
philosophy, I think.

Yeah.

And especially the emphasis.

There's all this kind of like cliche
advice we hear from people who are in

addiction recovery about taking life
one day at a time, et cetera, et cetera.

That is basically like
a modern distillation of

stoicism that it's just like a.

That avenue for it that I had
not really considered until I was

reminded about that particular.

Yeah.

I, for this keeps coming up Alcoholics
Anonymous, I'm starting to realize that

it's actually, it must, I think it's
a hotbed of like very good practices.

Like I think what's, what happens is
they have so much hands on experience.

Over generations, decades and decades
of like solving real problems that

they must really know their stuff.

It's such a common condition that,
yeah I wonder if there's some

good like reading or I feel like
there's a lot to learn from that.

Maybe they, maybe basically
they took the baton.

It's like a relay race.

Marcus passed it to someone
else who passes someone else.

And now the guy holding it
now is alcoholics anonymous.

Yeah.

I could, yeah.

Maybe that's the next book we
read after meditations is the

like handbook for AA or whatever.

With like war stories about how
this actually works in the field.

Yeah.

That's probably where the real research.

Is happening right now.

Yeah.

That's interesting.

It does strike me as like one of the
more philosophical organizations you

can exist as a part of in modern life.

If you really want to have some
intense conversations about how to

live with other adults who you don't
know super well in 2024, America

is definitely one of the richest,
most like accessible and interesting

versions of that, that exists probably.

And I feel like it is.

You talk to people who are recovered
alcoholics and it, there is

something very religious about that.

It's, you identify with it.

It's so meaningful.

It probably impacts so much more than
just your drinking habits at that point.

Yeah.

It's very cool.

Yeah.

Yes, I agree.

It reminds me when Upasana was doing,
Upasana was at some point doing some kind

of therapy where part of it was, she was
just trying this out where part of it

was like, you join a call on Thursdays.

And it's a bunch of people
who joined, it's 10 different

people who joined one Zoom call.

And it wasn't for alcoholism, but it
was, it had a similar Kind of vibe to

it where complete strangers talking
about your own, whatever issues you

had that week in a public setting.

And it was very interesting.

She said it was really helpful because
she walked away being like, okay, I'm

okay but like in a good way, not in a
demeaning way, but like in a, okay, like

we're all, everyone's struggling Yeah.

I did that too, actually in grad school,
I did like a group therapy thing, which

I think what you're describing, um, and
I was also mine was in person cause it

was pre pandemic, but I also definitely
came away with it was positive feeling.

And I think maybe even more so
because when I joined that group,

there was quite a bit of, they're
really interestingly like democratic.

Organizations or at least this one was
very much like, when changes were made

to the group, everybody had to talk
about it and see what was going on.

And at least half the group seemed to
think that I made the group too big.

As soon as I showed up, they were
like, there's too many people here now.

Which made me feel very guilty for taking
up any space at that group, basically.

Oh, that's funny.

So you're just like, are
my problems big enough?

Yes, so I would be like, I would be
like, silent for whole sessions because

I was like, I'm not gonna interject here.

So for me, it ended up being maybe
less helpful than it could have been.

Rude.

It's not their fault.

They would say it in ways
that were nice to me.

They were like, sure.

Don't take this personally, Tom or
whatever, but the group is too big now.

I feel like, okay that's me.

They don't need to call you out by name.

Okay.

Yeah.

I think that was like, meant to be like
personal and nice because obviously I was

gonna know if they're if their attitude
was it's too big now that they're talking

about me and so they would address me
I remember at least one guy being like

listen you seem great listen Tom you
seem really great it smells bad in the

room yeah we don't have we don't have
the bandwidth To deal with your problems

right now, but you seem like a nice guy.

That's horrible.

That's the meanest possible version
of what someone could say, but okay.

Okay.

Yeah.

In retrospect, it was a little
mean, so yeah those groups can

have very interesting dynamics.

I also, I went for a while.

I don't know that I got that much
of my own stuff dealt with, but it

was really interesting just to see
the dynamics of a group like that.

So I kept going for quite a while.

Wow.

Yeah.

Maybe in retrospect that was,
you were bullied actually.

A little bit.

And unfortunately, I think
that's part of what I was doing.

Like part of my, Game in therapy was
to get more comfortable in some ways.

This guy gave me a gift.

I think I wish I done is
actually taken up a huge amount

of space in the group and seen.

Yes, basically.

Yes.

I didn't have the wherewithal or maybe
the courage to do that at the time.

Yeah, because definitely part of the
thing I was dealing with Is this a

thing I have in general of not wanting
to take up space in, yeah, exactly.

You're the worst person to say that too.

Cause you're going to
take it so personally.

Yes, exactly.

Yes.

You have just ensured my
silence for six months.

If you say that to me.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

Yes.

I wish I, in retrospect, I wish I had.

Pushed back on it more,
but instead I got this.

I still think valuable.

Interesting experience.

That was like you're saying with
deposit at the very least a very

interesting dose of perspective
for me about what other people my

age were just a listening session
listening to other people's problems.

So don't want you to be there much.

Yeah.

Nice, that's a good one, Tom.

Alright, should we read
a little Marcus today?

Let's read a little Marcus.

Let's do it.

I read the first sentence
of this one and I'm into it.

We're at book seven here.

Twenty?

Twenty three, I think.

Twenty three, nice.

Yes, twenty three.

Nature takes substance and makes a horse.

That's what nature does.

Yes, that's a reminder
about how nature works.

Yeah, that's how nature works.

Cool.

Okay, but this continues.

Like a sculptor with wax, and then melts
it down and uses the material for a tree.

Sick.

Then for a person, then
for something else.

Each existing only briefly.

It does the container no harm to be put
together and none to be taken apart.

Very cool.

Yeah, very cool.

Yeah, I dig it.

It's very, obviously very kind of
Reincarnation y and like we're all just

made of the same stuff Yeah, like usually
I feel like when people talk about this

kind of thing, you know that atomically.

Yeah, we're all recycled Yeah, organisms
and we're made of star stuff etc.

There's more yeah I like how
Marcus is, he does something, he

says something kind of graphic.

Melts down a horse.

Is a pretty It's like a, it's
a more grotesque, Very violent.

Yeah, it's a more grotesque image
than I feel like usually we get

when we, Yeah, this concept of oh,
we're the recycled pieces of old.

Yeah of other organisms on the planet
or whatever Yeah, but like it's very

intense to say Yeah, yes horses are
actually wax horses and then they get

melted down and turned into people is
yeah I would categorize this thoughts

Generally this concept of oh our atoms
are the same from 200 million years ago

with dinosaurs like that concept is It's
simultaneously a little bit of an eye

roller, because you hear it a lot, but
it's one of those things that I think

what happens is, it's actually a lot.

It's like a, it's like walking
up to a mountain or like a

giant wall that's really tall.

And for me to actually look up and think
about how tall this thing is really hard.

And right.

I don't know, just like inconvenient.

And so I just, I tend to like,
when this thought comes up, it's

much easier for me to be like,
yep, I know this thought move on.

Yes.

And it's much harder to be like, Oh my
goodness, what does this actually mean?

To actually think about, cause
it is a profound thought.

It isn't like we are just recycled, but
it's very hard for me to switch from.

abstractly identifying this is profound
moving on to to somehow thinking about it.

Yes.

You know what I mean?

If we really sat with this
idea for an hour or something.

Yeah.

What would it do to us?

What effect?

Like this idea on mushrooms is
like really deep, but this idea,

on coffee is okay, moving on.

Yeah.

Yes.

Technically, chemically true.

Moving on.

Yes.

Yeah.

. Yeah.

What would it take for us to engage, I
guess some mushrooms probably is what

it would take for us to engage pretty
seriously with this thought in a way

that we wouldn't, we would actually look
up the big mountain and not just stare.

Yeah.

Stare at its foot, yeah.

The, there are all these implications with
like how I'm just this collection of cells

that are all releasing their own chemicals
and have their own agendas in many ways.

Yeah.

Like they're very loosely.

They're not like actually
working together.

They're just working for themselves
in a way that happens to be, loosely

symbiotic and so I'm, my brain is
just reacting to chemical reactions

in my gut and in my, and it's
just, so there is profundity there.

For sure.

I just don't like thinking about it.

It's too much.

Yeah, I agree.

Like it's, yes.

We can't.

Yeah we can't really hold all
that stuff simultaneously or

yeah, why is that too much?

What's too much about it?

It's part of it.

I think is that the consequences that
we feel inconsequential and small,

like it's staring into the abyss.

It's it's just, it's,
yeah, it's just scary.

Like anytime you, this is an
example of a thought that.

That admits it's like a nihilist, it
like borders on nihilism and thinking

about like nihilism is a philosophy that
makes me Tired or like just doesn't,

it doesn't exactly bring me joy.

You know what I mean?

So it's just an example of, I know that
this pattern of thought and I know it

doesn't really lead somewhere that, happy.

It's not on, it's just
it's just pointless.

Like you get to the end of that road
and I feel like I've been there before

and it's just there's nothing there.

So why go down that road again?

Yeah, okay, but then we make the point
that, yes, on mushrooms or whatever, there

is maybe something there, where, yeah.

I think it's a mistake to be like, pattern
recognition, swatted away, moving on.

I think why I think there yeah.

So the implication is, yeah we're
doing some sort of false we see this

and we're like, Ugh, no, I don't
want to deal with this thought again.

Yeah.

Or whatever.

But that's wrong.

It's like work.

It's like the same reason I don't
want to I don't know, go for a workout

it's I don't really want to I don't
really want to do this right now.

Yeah.

Yes.

I agree with you that somehow that this
kind of thing, especially feels like

work on some level reading any of these
meditations and engage is a form of work,

but some of them are easier to engage
with and feel like, oh, I got all the

juice out of the squeeze on that one.

And this feels like there's a lot
of, There's a lot of juice here,

potentially, but a lot of juice
squeezing it is tougher than your hand.

Your little hand muscles are gonna hurt.

Yeah.

Especially when you're on a
week like, like my week where

everything is just great.

Yes.

Yeah I'm happy to squeeze if I'm like,
if I'm really frustrated about something,

then okay, maybe it's time to squeeze and
I get some meaning out of the nihilism.

Yeah.

When things are great and I don't
need Nyla, then I'm not so sure.

Not time to be exerting a bunch of effort.

Yeah.

Nice.

I dig it.

All right.

That's enough squeezing on that one.

Moving on.

Number 24.

Anger in the face is unnatural.

I love this.

Sword.

And then we have these little sword
things with an ellipsis, which I think

is either means like a section that
can't be translated or maybe it was

like, too illegible or something.

So there's, we're going to pick up in
the middle of Ascendance after this.

Okay.

Or in the end is put out for good
so that it can't be rekindled.

Try to conclude its
unnaturalness from that.

And then in parentheses, If
even the consciousness of acting

badly has gone, why go on living?

Okay let's go back to the beginning
of this one and walk through it.

Anger in the face is unnatural.

I actually really like this , so
it makes me think of babies.

Have you seen a baby get angry or or
you see it, someone they're upset.

I guess upset is a, is
a, adjacent to angry?

Yeah, just their faces look really funny.

Okay.

Or just in general, people's angry faces
can look very comical out of context.

Yeah.

It's what are you doing?

You're wearing a weird mask.

And it is very unnatural in a way.

Like you, you look very Yeah, you've got
a weird face, you've got a weird mask on

and if you were to if all of a sudden like
a unicorn showed up and like with a baby

where like it forgets why it was upset.

It like goes back to normal face You're
like, oh my god, that's so much better.

Yes This is please put that away.

The silly cliche thing about it
takes far more Muscles in your

face to yes to frown than it does.

Yes smile or ah or whatever genius, right?

Yeah, not a silly cliche Tom.

That's a wall right there.

That's an infinitely tall wall that
you just chose Yes, that's true.

Yeah, that's something that people in
a I could engage with very deeply that

I'm just yeah probably Yeah, okay, cool.

All right.

I feel like we feel good about the
first sentence here We're on the run.

We're on board with Marcus that
anger in the face is unnatural.

Yeah, okay dagger or sword, whatever
You Or in the end is put out for

good so that it can't be rekindled.

Try to conclude its
unnaturalness from that.

Is his point that

eventually our faces are no longer capable
of expressing anger because we're dead?

Is that, oh, in the end, that's not, yeah.

How did you read it?

I read it actually as this be rekindled.

Have you ever tried to so think
back to a time you were really

angry or upset about something.

Okay.

Have you tried to put yourself back in
those shoes and rekindled that feeling?

I see.

And it's actually quite hard.

It's like I don't really.

I can't really get myself
riled up about this anymore.

Like I was really upset at the
time and now it's yeah, whatever.

I say, I see.

Oh, that's interesting.

So it can't be rekindled which
is, that's the conclusion.

It's unnatural.

Yes.

I don't know if I agree with the
word unnatural, but yes, I agree.

But like his use of natural is
always a little tricky, but yeah,

there's something like, see, That
wasn't real or something like that.

Yeah.

Or authentic.

Yes.

Yeah.

And so he, yeah, his definition of
natural is it's all, it's always a

little bit close to good, but also
like rational or something to rational.

That's right.

Yes.

Okay.

I like the point you're making.

I was not interpreting any of
those terms, but I like your

reading much better where it's yes.

If you think back on some specific
Memory that whatever would have

made you angry at the time.

Your face is not going to do
the same thing it did before.

But conversely, if you think back on a
happy memory, it doesn't work that way.

You might smile or whatever.

And I feel like there's
an asymmetry there.

I wonder if Marcus would say even
the, there is a type of happiness.

That's like manic.

Oh, yes.

Yes.

Where you look back on that.

Yes.

Yeah.

You look back on that call it, that
whatever, some time in college where you

were just like having such a great time.

And now you're like, yeah, sure.

Whatever honeymoon period, you know, yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

You might even distinguish like happiness
from joy or something in that to do that.

But if you looked at like there, it
does feel to me like there are probably

there, truly joyful memories where
you're genuinely feel very connected

to yourself or the world or whatever.

You might look back on those memories and
have a natural face reaction, which is

similar to the one that you had at the
time you were originally experiencing it.

And you would not necessarily do the
same thing for upsetting or that's

an interesting interpretation.

I didn't, that might be, that would be
an argument for life is good, which I

know we want to go in that direction.

I have a feeling that
Marcus Wouldn't agree.

thinks that I've always,
let me put it this way.

I've always interpreted stoicism
to, to be equally ruthless against

negativity as it is against positivity.

And everything is, this too shall pass.

Yeah.

Because you can't have
one without the other.

Yeah.

And that's why it's a philosophy.

That's great.

If you're struggling and like
buying, if you're having a good

life, you're having a good time.

Yeah.

Okay.

Maybe that's too negative.

Maybe that's maybe that's not true.

I think I'm reading this very the way
this is written is very It's almost

mathematical in the way that if he's
like he's stating a conclusion and

then he's exercise this to yourself
based on a little bit of logic.

Yeah.

Go home and in your workbooks.

Yes.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Which a is fun.

I think it's fun to write like that.

Okay.

Part of the mathematical whatever that
I'm reading here is that he doesn't say.

Any emotion in the face is
unnatural, or something like that.

He said, the scope of the statement
is purely about anger, and my maybe

kind of pedantic reading means
that if he could have made a more

general statement, he would have.

Emotion is unnatural.

Yeah, but he chose anger specifically
to make a point that anger is

different from the other emotions.

Yeah, that's true.

That's true.

All right.

Let's try to engage with
this last parenthetical.

No, I can't do it.

That's it.

You're alone

Let's just give it a quick try.

Anger is in my face.

Yeah, okay fine.

Get over it cuz it's not that's bad
If even the consciousness of acting

badly has gone why go on living?

I think I can understand that as a
rhetorical question, but I am having

trouble with connecting it to what we've
just discussed, like he's saying, even the

consciousness of acting badly has gone.

Yes, basically yourself.

Yeah.

So is it kill yourself?

Okay.

Yeah, yeah.

He's It seems true, right?

That his whole thing is like real
living is about making these choices

between what's good and what's bad.

And you just are presented with the
things you these choices in life.

And that's it.

And then everything else
is stuff you can't control.

So you shouldn't worry about it.

And he's saying, look, if you reach
a point where you can't even feel the

difference between the good and the bad.

Oh, you're not living anymore.

Like you're, what's the point?

The whole point that was, that is the
game is to feel the difference between

the good stuff and the bad stuff.

I see.

I don't, I can, I don't
know how it's related.

I continue to not know
how it's related either.

It makes me think your
interpretation might be right.

It's like anger is an example
of acting badly, right?

So if you can rekindle that anger, which
is like Having the consciousness be gone.

Then kill yourself.

Wow, yes, okay.

That's a bit severe.

But yeah, I Yeah, okay,
maybe something like that.

Yeah, try to Yes, okay.

Yeah, that's pretty bleak.

That's okay, so you got angry.

It does seem to be
related to anger, right?

So yes, okay So this guy in your therapy
group who said Tom, it's not you We

like you don't worry, but this group has
gotten too big if he thinks back on that

moment and is just as angry as he was he's
able to rekindle that Yes, then there's

something wrong with him I guess I don't
remember him being angry for the record.

It was very matter of fact presented
very well, he was sharing his truth.

He was sharing his truth.

He didn't think about how it
would make someone else feel.

Yes.

But yeah, that is by the way, that is
like the game and group therapy where

like everybody on the one hand, you're
there to talk about your own stuff,

but it's so hard to do that with.

And Also listen to other people,
but also give them enough space.

It's like this very
tricky social situation.

I feel like where I
don't think I like that.

Okay.

It's fascinating people.

Some people are really good at it.

Part of what I liked, I think about
it actually was that some people had

been there in that group for years
and they knew each other really well.

And the way they would be able to
talk about what was going on with

them personally, but also leave enough
space for others and make others feel

like they were getting validation too.

Was cool.

I was like, damn, you guys
are really good at this.

Part of what I liked about it.

Interesting.

Yeah.

Anyway, I guess that's just friendship.

That's part of it.

But weirdly, no one was
like, we were not friends.

Like when the session ended, no one was
talking, everyone went their own ways.

But I think I just thought it
was some sort of they were just

these Like black therapy gurus.

Yeah.

For Tom, I bet this was like part
of the problem is you were like, you

were not validating your own emotion.

And then you were told that
you made the group too big.

Yeah.

And you saw what you perceived to be
other people who are black belt emotion.

Yes.

Not, okay.

Not everyone was a
black belt in the group.

The group was a big mix, but there
were a couple of black belts where

I was like, Whoa, that's cool.

I'd like to know how to do that.

That's so intimidating.

Yeah.

There, there were some other, I don't even
think I'm a white belt by those standards.

I think if I was in a small group, I
would've hung Yeah, you're a green belt.

I would've hung just fine.

I wouldn't be the best.

Okay.

But I wouldn't be the worst either.

No, but you were right away.

The introduction was,
Hey, the group is too big.

Come on in.

Yeah, exactly.

. Yeah.

Yes.

And they, yeah.

There's this funny thing where like.

They would direct the, there
was like a therapist who ran it.

He wasn't like participating
much, but he would just like help

navigate the conversation if it
needed intervening or whatever.

And so they would directed their anger
or criticism about group size to him.

And he would just do the therapy reaction
of tell me how that makes you feel.

But he wouldn't police that.

It wouldn't be nice.

It wasn't, yes, it wasn't be nice and
it wasn't like, okay, cool feedback

received, we'll make the group smaller.

It was just, yeah, it
was just, tell me more.

It was a great way to get out of his
responsibility for adding more people.

That's hilarious.

Wow.

Yeah.

I think Yeah, man, that's it.

This is a sitcom, Tom.

I know I'm going, yeah, turning,
taking a left turn here, but it's

like, it could be a good sitcom.

Yeah, I do feel like group therapy
like that has been depicted a lot

in TV, usually not comedically.

Usually it's yeah.

Yeah, there are lots of TV shows where
it's a lazy trope in a dramatic TV show.

I feel like to, obviously therapy in
general yeah, people do that in TV

all the time because it's an easy way
to get inside the character's head.

Yeah.

It's an interesting point that
yes, playing it for laughs

would be a very interesting
artistic decision for a writer.

I agree that there's
potentially something there.

Yeah.

Interesting.

Okay.

So anger and face on natural.

If you can still kindle it, kill yourself.

Got it.

Yeah.

Okay.

25.

Done and dusted 25 before long nature,
which controls us, controls it all will

alter everything and use it as material
for something else over and over again

so that the world is continually renewed.

Yeah.

Great.

Yeah.

23 repeated.

It's I'll venture that this
is at least the way I read it.

It's.

Upping the ante on 23 actually, which is
that not only does nature recycle stuff so

that it's constantly renewed, but controls
at all will alter everything and use it

as a material for something else to me
implies that not only will it turn you

into a horse or a tree or whatever, but
you can't even understand it will turn it

like the future of the world will involve.

Organizations and organisms that
you've never even, you can't even

conceive of the world is stranger
than the stuff, which dig that.

Yeah.

This makes me think of you're
a soldier in a bunker in world

war one and you could not.

It's just you cannot conceive of the
horribleness of man And it's like one of

the soldiers is a bunch of them are going
crazy about Some of them are committing

suicide and one of them is listen before
long nature controls everything like we're

just atoms We're all going to get recycled
the world will get continually renewed

just do your job Yeah, it is a very
that's how i'm reading all of these like

dramatic You Yeah, that's interesting.

I think you're probably right.

I think if you need to write this
sort of thing down, it's because

you're feeling pretty afflicted
by something in the world.

Yeah.

I think so.

I can't imagine wanting
to think about this.

Otherwise yeah,

it's tough for me.

I know we've talked at length about
the tough stuff that Marcus was

dealing with personally or whatever.

Yeah, but it's still hard for
me at times to imagine him here.

He is emperor of Rome that
he's feeling this kind of.

World war one soldier in a
foxhole mortality kind of stuff.

You know what I mean?

Yeah, you're right.

He, you're right, actually, because
he also has the other angle, which

we don't you and I, but don't.

I've talked about not understanding,
which is I'm mortal too.

Don't get me off my own soapbox.

He seems to be very obsessed
with I'm going to die too.

I'm not a God.

Don't worry about the legacy.

Yeah.

So he seems to, unlike us, he seems
to be like very worried about the

both extremes, both the extremely
positive and the extremely negative.

Yeah.

Which, whereas I don't
think you and I have.

Are very worried about the extremely
positive and we maybe don't

experience the extremely negative.

Yes, but yeah, I, yes, I agree with that.

I think that is the tension
that I'm trying to start.

What are you going through exactly?

Marcus?

Yeah, he's going through.

Everything is great.

He's going through he goes through a
lot of that and things are horrible.

That's true.

Yeah.

Both.

Yeah.

Boy, I guess what an intense life.

He's like bipolar or something.

Maybe like on any given day, either
everything, either he's a God,

which is probably not that hard
to think as if you're the emperor.

He needs to calm himself down and
be like, yo, chill, chill with that.

Chill chill.

Yep.

But also things are going terribly,
but remember, you're going to be

a horse pretty soon or whatever.

So you're going to get melted down.

Yeah.

So it's not so bad.

Yeah.

Yeah, I, yeah, okay, I guess that's
a bit, yeah, I hadn't totally clocked

that in our previous conversations,
but I think that's right.

He is the highs and lows he seems to be
implicitly encountering in this text,

I think are much higher and much lower
than the stuff that we modern people

generally deal with on a day to day basis.

That's how I'm reading it.

I think that we forget
that he's pretty young.

Yeah, and we for and I think
we forget that he's like he's

younger than us when he's writing.

That's probably Yeah and I think
we also forget that he's like he's

living in a time where maybe these
philosophy We talked about Alexander

the Great being like no Aristotle.

Don't tell other people these secret Yes,
like maybe he's living at a time where

people just weren't like emotionally aware
at the time To the same like degree so

maybe we're just like society in the same
way that we now have like cell phones

and cars and stuff like we now have these
tools to regulate our emotional states,

which people didn't have back then.

So they acted more like, dramatic
over to overly dramatic teenagers.

Yeah, all the time.

Yeah, I think that I think
you're onto something there.

Yes, I think that's, true.

Probably totally correct.

I think some of that too comes from
we've now we have all these concepts

of human rights and like societies
that are built to protect us from

totally those big ups and downs.

Yeah.

And yes.

Yeah.

Death is much less common.

Like it's just just so much.

Yeah, this is no longer
necessary as necessary.

Yeah.

At least for us who
have nice lives in this.

Yeah.

Yes, I think that's right.

What I guess what I'm one thought
I'm having in the back of my head

is with some of this stuff about
nature recycling itself and stuff.

I wonder if it's Marcus's.

If Marcus is maybe not actually talking
as much about himself, where it's like, he

went to a battlefield today or whatever,
and he saw a lot of dead Roman soldiers

and part of his brain is boy, I did this.

This is in part because of me.

And so he's like comforting
himself about that, as opposed to

specifically thinking about his own.

Sure.

It's still very, it still
indicates an inability to control.

Your emotions in that moment, because
I think someone who is a little bit

like who has internalized a little
bit, this a little bit more deeply

would in that moment be like, listen,

this is the job.

Yeah, there's no you're not going
to make an omelet without breaking

some eggs and wouldn't need to
go home write this down maybe.

Although I'm also not
killing people every day.

So you know, it's easy for me to say.

Yeah.

Okay.

Number 26.

When people injure you, ask
yourself what good or harm

they thought would come of it.

If you understand that, you'll feel
sympathy rather than outrage or anger.

Your sense of good and evil may be
the same as theirs or near it, in

which case you have to excuse them.

Or your sense of good and
evil may differ from theirs.

Yeah.

In which case they're misguided
and deserve your compassion.

Is that so hard?

All right, so here we are giving
him all this credit about caring

about his soldiers, but he all
he talks about is himself And

yes him himself being offended.

So I don't know.

Yes, this one definitely giving
them a credit This one definitely

feels more about how to deal with
people who yeah offend you or

whatever Who's offending this guy?

People were we know this historically.

It's the it's we talked about
the play or whatever Yeah, Yes.

Okay.

Ask yourself what good or harm
they thought would come of it.

If you understand that, you'll feel
sympathy rather than outrage or anger.

Okay.

But I feel like, on some level, that's
a very basic okay, someone has done

something you don't like, we all
naturally have the instinct to ask

ourselves, okay, why did they do that?

Yeah.

Which is what we're being
instructed to do here.

But I feel like, okay, I guess
I agree that Sometimes it's it

was an accident, or whatever.

Or,

I guess I'm, has the first situation
he describes ever happened to you?

Where you're like, okay, someone
does something that I don't like.

And I say, okay, why did they do that?

And then I realize that my sense of
good and evil is the same as theirs.

And therefore I have to
excuse their behavior.

Yeah, the way I read that is it's like
when you're playing, let's say war,

for example, it's kill or be killed.

It's just, that's, if I had
put myself in their shoes, I

would have done the same thing.

Like I would do that.

I had an opportunity
to ambush my opponent.

Listen, I'm, that's my job.

I'm going to do it.

Like I get it.

So I think that's, I actually,
that makes a lot of sense to me.

So I'm all, I'm upset that I was ambushed,
but also, It's interesting that he's he

wants to cultivate sympathy towards those
people rather than yeah, that's the part

I don't that's the part where I don't
exactly it's like I just feel like if

this is what he wants to do he shouldn't
be the Emperor yeah we talked about this

before where I'm on my I guess I'm on
my soapbox about like maybe this isn't

the right job for you buddy he's not the
right guy yeah I guess that's why I was

thinking this is some I was imagining
something much smaller where it's like I

see but yeah when people injure you is a
vague I I think it's totally problematic.

It's yeah, but Oh, you mean like my
wife says something a little bit.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

Some stranger gives me
a slight or whatever.

Because that's like a situation
where it actually would be

helpful to be able to summon up
sympathy, maybe instead of anger.

But then it's, that's what the question
I was asking is like, Situations like

that, less consequential ones, I feel
like I'm much less likely to invoke the

logic you're invoking about I would have
done the same thing in his situation.

So I can't hold anything against him.

Like usually if some with these
smaller types of insults, it's just

Hey, that was thoughtless dickhead.

And then that's the end of it, yeah.

I guess I'm often thoughtless,
so I guess I could say.

My sense of good and, oh, I just
probably wasn't thinking about it and

didn't realize this was happening.

Yeah.

Okay.

This is where my reading breaks
down because describing that

as your sense of good and evil.

That's true.

It seems very dramatic.

It's it's basically saying I didn't,
the person who slighted me didn't even

realize their sense of good and evil
was like, doesn't encompass this slight.

They were just thinking
about something else.

So yeah.

Whatever.

I'm just, I'm being very generous here.

Yeah.

No, I think that's good.

I think I like it.

He does do the thing, I guess it's just
worth it, worth pointing out that he

does pretty frequently about if anybody
has a sense of good and evil, that's

different than mine, they're misguided.

I Which means because mine
is 100 percent correct.

Exactly.

Yeah, gotta love that.

Wouldn't be Marcus without just
a bit of insane condescension

every once in a while.

But he balances out the acidity
of that with a little sweetness

of, okay, misguided people like
that deserve your compassion.

I know.

They're not evil.

They're just stupid.

And you should help them, Marcus.

Yeah.

Check it out.

Yeah, which I just cute, which is nice.

But also if you weren't so
condescending to begin with.

Yeah, I don't know.

It's level two, right?

Level one is people who
aren't like me are bad.

Level two is.

People aren't like me, are not like me,
are wrong, but treat them with compassion.

And then it's a lot to ask the guy that
gets a level three maybe I'm wrong.

Yes.

Yeah.

That is something we
don't hear much from him.

It's no, how to deal with you are wrong.

Yeah.

It is funny.

Here's a guy who is so obsessed
with You could just say someone

wronged me, but it's okay.

Move on.

But he was like so obsessed
with give them compassion.

And is that so hard, but he's not
willing to go one step further and be

like, think a little more deeply about
like my own sense of good and evil.

Yes.

And there's something especially tense
there because on some level, so many of so

much of the stuff he writes is about this.

Absolutely.

This absolute equality between humans.

Yeah.

We're all getting melted down into.

Yes, exactly.

Yeah.

But then.

The logical conclusion is,
yes, but they're misguided.

They can be misguided.

And I cannot be one entry later.

Yes.

Yeah.

It's interesting to see in some ways,
concept of equality and fairness really.

Exist already in their modern state.

And in some ways he does not have certain
concepts that feel totally obvious to us.

It reminds me of Winston Churchill
like reading his memoir, it's

just full of all these insane.

He's a Duke and he's so up his
own, with these British isms

and he'll travel to these other
countries and he's just they're

simultaneously, they're savages and.

Yeah.

He has so much compassion
and respect for them.

Yeah.

It's this weird juxtaposition of it's just
magnanimy it's misplaced magnanimy Yeah.

You read it and you're like, actually
dude, that's just a different

culture that you don't understand.

But but you, it's sweet that he,
Both thinks it's wrong and has all

this goodness at his heart anyway.

Yeah.

And stretches themselves
to be so magnanimous.

Yeah.

That is a, I guess that's a
symptom of being in power or

perceiving yourself to be powerful.

Yeah.

Yes.

I think that's right.

Yeah, the inherent inequality of the world
that they were encountering just made

them do these weird mental gymnastics.

Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah.

On some level, they understood
the concept of this is the same

as me, but they would have to.

They thought about it a lot.

Like the fact that Marcus seems to
write so much about this okay, someone

did something that makes me mad.

How can, how should I respond to them?

It's something that comes
up for him constantly.

So it's clear that he's grappling with.

Yeah.

This is another.

Yeah, he is.

This is another example of where I
think just we being born into our

modern world have been gifted so much.

Yeah, so many advances in philosophy
that he just probably didn't have this

we're caught we're brought up being
told that it's you know It's not better.

It's different, like Whatever the, the
Eskimos are, yeah, like they have all

these wonderful cultural traditions
that you just don't know about.

And you shouldn't judge them.

We're just told that from such an early
age that it just becomes ingrained in

us in a way that I just, I don't think
anyone that would have been insane to

hear someone say that in Marcus's age.

So are we really expecting him to
come up with that idea all on his own?

Yeah.

Like he has to get there through
The path to that leads through a

bunch of statements like this, which
are Eskimo stupid, but they deserve

our compassion, which is a huge
step up from the world he lives in.

Let's just kill them, yes.

Yep, I agree.

I think he is doing his best.

And is, yes, admirably dealing with what
is a, obviously, massive moral question in

general, and probably a very significant
moral question at the time, when the

world is far less equal than ours is now.

That tool, the different but
also good tool, is like It's

like a stethoscope or something.

It's something pretty complicated
that like we happen to be born.

We have it in our toolbox when
we're born, but you don't just, you

don't just get a like stethoscope.

Yeah.

It doesn't happen by accident.

Yeah.

I think it's a very powerful tool
because if you have that tool, then

all this stuff comes naturally.

If you can leapfrog to It's not better.

It's different.

Then you get all the stuff along
the way you get the, you get

the deserve your compassion, you
get the, I'm not as offended.

You get all that stuff for free.

It's like a shortcut.

It's like a cheat code.

Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah.

That's interesting.

That's I like that thought that.

It's hard for us to, I think, in general,
appreciate without reading something like

this, the advantage, the sort of like
technological philosophical advantages

we're born with or whatever yes, we're
just handed cultural like this as a

way of, by merit of when we were born.

But yes, it's fascinating to see
what they have to do when they

don't have a stethoscope, which
is like good, but also not there.

Yeah.

Is that so hard?

Yes.

It's also very condescending.

So Marcus.

Yes.

But in that case, I guess he's
being condescending to himself.

That seems to be like one
of his things that he does.

Yeah.

Presumably no one's reading
this other than him.

So is that so hard?

Seems to be targeting himself.

Apparently it is.

Yeah, yeah.

You seem to keep writing
in this book, dude.

So yeah, apparently.

Yeah.

All right.

I think last one here.

What's that?

Number 27.

Treat what you don't have.

As non existent.

Nice.

Look at what you have, the things you
value most and think about how much

you'd crave them if you didn't have them.

Nice.

But be careful.

Don't feel such satisfaction that
you start to overvalue them, that

it would upset you to lose them.

Yeah, this is the stoicism.

I yes, I know and love this
is the Yes, this to show past

version of don't be too happy.

Don't be too sad.

Yeah.

Yeah, imagine losing everything yeah,
and a use that as a way to appreciate the

things that you have right now, but also
be Realized that it actually would not

be so terrible to lose everything Yeah,
in the same breath, realize both of those

things, even though on their surface,
they seem to contradict each other.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's good.

It's nice.

It's don't feel such satisfaction
that you start to overvalue them.

That's I like how he's phrased that bit.

I don't know why exactly
that appeals to me.

But yes yeah, that is.

Yeah, that is like the actual
twist of stoicism to like

the first couple sentences.

I think are stoic for sure, but I
think they're a little more obvious

to a modern person somehow about
appreciate all the stuff you have, think

about how nice it would be, or like
how sad you would be if you lost it.

It wouldn't be stoicism if it wasn't
the second part of the statement,

which I think is funny and true.

Yeah, yes.

For some reason, I just really
this specific sentiment.

I think you're right.

It's like classic stoicism, but
I don't know that he's expressed

this idea quite this succinctly.

Yeah, before I dig the second
half of it, especially, it

is a funny notion to be like.

You bought a new car and you're
like, Oh, I love just going

out in the evening and driving.

Yeah.

And then you have to be like no, stop it.

Don't feel too much satisfaction.

Yeah it's I guess what you're
doing is you're hedging your bets.

So if someone scratches your car.

Or whatever you get a total,
then you won't be too upset.

So you're hedging, is what you're doing.

But also, you're doing this other kind
of hedging, where it would be easy

to now take the car for granted, too.

And you're like yeah, exactly.

Don't do that, either.

Like One, also, when you go home, and
you look at your old kettle, don't

be like, oh, this stupid kettle.

Be like wouldn't it be terrible if
I couldn't heat up, heat my water?

Yes.

That's hard.

A lot of work.

Yes, exactly.

I think we're on the same page.

It's so much work.

How about just enjoy your
stuff or I don't know.

Yes.

But then you're at risk of someone
scratches your car and now you're

like, my life is ruined or whatever.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's true.

Yes.

Be simultaneously.

Yeah.

Gratitude is the first half on some level.

Yeah.

I don't know.

I don't.

What's the word for the second half?

It says, yeah, detachment or something.

Yeah.

Detachment.

Yeah.

It's good.

It's solid.

It's a good one to think about.

Yes.

I agree.

Let's leave our listeners with
that thought maybe about balancing.

We can think about
something we over enjoy.

What's one thing you over enjoy, Tom?

I enjoy too much.

Yeah.

Something to think about for next week.

All right.

Sounds good.

See ya.

More episodes

Chapters

What is Tom and Paul read meditations?