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Dr. John Sherk, owner and president of Operations Laboratory reveals all of his HVAC technician career happiness strategies, income improvements and killer tech-happiness tips and tricks so you can get ahead of the curve with your HVAC technician career. Discover how you can create a quality negotiated agreement with your manager that works for you so that you can have the time and freedom to do what you love, whether it’s coaching your kids’ teams, getting out there for hunting season, or just living comfortably at home with your family. Since 2010, he’s been consulting his many HVAC clients on how to develop and manage a culture that is friendly to tech-happiness, and here he openly shares his wins, his losses, and all the lessons in between with the community of energetic but humble HVAC techs, managers, and owners who follow him. Self-proclaimed “Technician Happiness Guru” you’ll learn about getting paid what you deserve, building genuine and loyal relationships at work and at home, recruiting winners (tip: they all already work for someone else), building a tech-happy culture, quality communication, skills mastery, optimizing performance, negotiating compensation, professionalism, , and productivity tips so that you create an amazing, tech-happy life without burning yourself out. It’s a mix of interviews, special co-hosts and solo shows from John you’re not going to want to miss. Hit subscribe, and get ready to change your life.
John 00:00:00 Hey, everybody. Welcome to the HVAC Joy lab podcast. I'm your host, Dr. John Sherk. This podcast focuses on creating more and more conversations about what optimizes life for an HVAC technician. My goal is to produce the most helpful content available for techs. Full stop. Today you're going to hear from Justin Friedman. Justin is a commercial technician in the Indianapolis market. He has had a number of experiences, including working with national accounts. But just like all of you, he had to work through the grind of the first five years to get where he is today. So here's his story. Okay, let's get started.
Speaker UU 00:00:41 We're regular guys. Always early to rise. We get into our trucks. Another coil to wash. We always treat the customer right? Yeah, well, one guy in a truck, guys. A good life is hard. At the HBC Joy lab, a good life is hard at the HVAC. See? Joy. Laugh. HVAC joy. Laugh.
John 00:01:36 All right, everybody, welcome to HVAC Joy lab.
John 00:01:39 I'm here today with Justin Freeman. he's a commercial technician up in Indianapolis, Indiana with, currently with performance mechanical. Welcome. Justin. How's it going, buddy? Good, good. Good, good. I want to say, first of all, we're recording this on August 8th, and it is in the middle of the summer. And Justin, you're taking a few minutes to be on the podcast. I just say I really appreciate you doing it. This is like, you know, if there's any time of year that's tough for technicians to take a half an hour away from what they're doing now, is it? So I appreciate it. Oh, it's it's all good.
Justin 00:02:15 the company I actually work for it now. We're we're we've got a lot of contracts, but they, they're, they're very heavy maintenance based. So we do a lot of service, but like, they keep us busy with maintenance, which. Oh sure appreciated. So the weather is a little bit milder here right now.
Justin 00:02:30 So. Yeah, I'm just, That's right.
John 00:02:32 Any now what's the temperature about right now needing Annapolis.
Justin 00:02:36 it's I would say 80 to 85. I haven't what the. I haven't looked today because I've only been outside once. They, I had an inside job earlier. So yeah, down here.
John 00:02:44 In South Louisiana we're having the hottest summer on record. So we're the highs this week are anywhere from 98 to 100 every day and have been for a month.
Justin 00:02:52 Oh, yeah. Boy, that's, Sounds brutal.
John 00:02:56 Yeah it's tough in this business because, you know, I have clients who are in the maintenance business primarily, but you get up out of those, you know, Ashrae specs, it doesn't really matter if it's been maintained, it's going to go down or they or it's going to be an 82 degree room and it's just the max the unit can deliver. And the phone keeps ringing and ring and ringing.
Justin 00:03:15 So yeah, that sounds brutal. Yeah.
John 00:03:19 Well listen, let's go with let let's go with my standard question.
John 00:03:22 I like to ask the beginning with your your superpower and your origin story. tell the audience, tell about the story of you becoming a technician. And, what do you love most about it?
Justin 00:03:34 So, my my origin story. I was, you know, I, I had real good grades in high school. I didn't, but I wasn't sure the college route was for me, right? I didn't I didn't even, basically, with my A.D.D. didn't really do a lot of homework. Things like that. Just aced the tests and, you know, basically slacked off the rest of it because, you know, that's high school, right? You you know, you kind of get bored with it sometimes. Anyway. So, out of high school, I didn't really go to college, and I was just working warehouse to warehouse, you know, just having fun, partying and hanging out. Not really sure what I did, but then 22, 23 came along and I'm like, all right, you know, I'm getting really tired of working at these warehouses, machine shops, just this hard labor, repetitive nonsense, you know, boring work.
Justin 00:04:18 So I decided to go to trade school, and, I went to the trade school. it was about a nine month program. Northwestern Technological Institute up in Michigan. all right. And, I graduated top of my class, and, I got hired, by a national company immediately, like, right out of school. And, that's that's how it began. And you just, natural is a different animal. Man. I don't know if you've ever talked to any of those texts, but they it is a different animal.
John 00:04:46 We had we had briefly interacted about that, in by email, but the I didn't realize that was your first job right out of town.
Justin 00:04:54 It was was that. Yeah. It was it was a lot.
John 00:04:56 Of that's a lot of stress and expectation for somebody who's got like basically zero years of experience.
Justin 00:05:03 Well, they they started me as mostly like a just a PM guy. You know, it's changing filters doing PMS. And this particular company offered like cleaning services or you'd have to go up there with the, the shop back and all that kind of stuff.
Justin 00:05:16 And, you know, it was, it was, it was it was a chore. Sometimes I'll tell you what, you know, you you go from the school and you're learning about these basic, basic wiring diagrams, and all of a sudden you're in front of a 20 ton rooftop unit, even on a PM, it's just like, okay. Yeah, yeah. You know, so, yeah,
John 00:05:35 We have our version of that down here is, in New Orleans. There's so many really old buildings and in those buildings that the system is just completely weird, customized mechanical air handlers, all that stuff. And the young guys get up into the in, you know, they they just don't even know what they're looking at at it It's, it's a similar thing that happens down here to.
Justin 00:05:57 Right, for sure. So, I mean, it definitely took me a while to learn. And once you, you know, once you once you get going, you know, it's kind of like every technician has that moment where it clicks, right? Like you get in the field.
Justin 00:06:07 You're just kind of wandering around. You're kind of trying to figure it out and figure it out, and then one day it just happens and you just figure it out, you know?
John 00:06:15 So this is a very good topic. So how long would you say that was from the time you got started out of trade school till then?
Justin 00:06:23 for me it was five years because, you know, I, you know, I thought I knew things and I knew some things, but like, the day that, you know, the wiring diagrams and the refrigeration cycle, all of it just clicked together was probably five years in, but that was, you know, when I was at Lennox, I was doing a lot of maintenance is I didn't get a chance to run a lot of calls. I'm a more hands on learner rather than, you know, watching somebody do it. Right. So I was kind of one of those things where, you know, I went through a couple companies here and there. So they laid me off because they lost a couple of big accounts.
Justin 00:06:54 Then I moved to Indiana and, you know, then I tried my hand at residential a little bit and got with another national company, and I was on call three weeks out of every four, which was a nightmare. And I was like, you know, I got to a point with them where we kind of hit our exit interview. They were like, so this field might not be for you. And I'm like, maybe it's not right because I was still, you know, young ish, you know, 27, 28. You know, you're new to the field, still trying to figure things out. And I'm like, you know what? Maybe it's not. So then I worked at a warehouse for another five months. It was like, yep, I remember why I didn't like that, you know? Yeah. And then I, Yeah. And then I got with another national accounts company where and I we'll go over the how they kind of operated a little bit later. But basically you just get thrown on calls.
Justin 00:07:39 They just need bodies to run calls. That's what it is. So just call after call after call after call after call. And using my superpower resourcefulness, I would call people, I would, you know what I'm saying? I'm not afraid to call tech support. And any good tech shouldn't be afraid to call tech support because you're there to solve a problem. You're not there to, you know, try and figure it out yourself. You're there to solve a problem. So if you can't, you know, you give it the old college try for an hour and you're just stuck. Call tech support. They'll help you, you know. Yeah. So but yeah, like I said, it was about after a year of doing that as well, maybe maybe six months to a year at that company I was doing, you know, just out on my own, figuring it out. And it just all clicked, you know, and now it's just like, yep. And now I feel like I can now I feel like I work at anything, you know? And, you know.
John 00:08:24 Well, see, this is this is, you know, a lot of my research and what I do in recruiting is trying to help technicians be oriented to what phase of career they're in. And there's a lot of technicians that everybody knows. You have to learn, you have to get experience, quote unquote. But there is a let's call it a 2 to 5 year grind. That is the first 2 to 5 years of a technician's career. And it is a grind. It's not fun. You're doing things where you feel like you don't know for sure what you're doing. The skill level has not developed to the point that, you know, like for you now. Justin, you woke. Up to a piece of a one on, you know. But but those those guys who are in those first 2 to 5 years, let's call it that. I call it the grind. It's you. You just you just have to push through. There's no, there's no, replacement for it. There's no you can't skip it.
John 00:09:29 It's just reps. It's that 10,000 hour thing. You just got to grind through it. And just like Justin just described it, at some point, the clouds part, and it feels like, oh, I think I know what I'm doing now. And there's, I don't there's no way around it. And so I think it's where some techs give up, and I think it's where some texts get frustrated They wonder if it's the company they work for. In your case, partly it was, but the that phase. If you can make it through that phase as a technician, once you're through that and the clouds part, you can work anywhere. You can work for anybody. If you want to live somewhere else in the world, you can live there and work there if you want to work commercial, if you want to work residential, that you can do anything you want, but you got to get through that grind in order to get there.
Justin 00:10:17 Oh, yeah. That's, that's that's a big that's a big part of it.
Justin 00:10:20 I mean, especially for the young tech listening, if there are any, just just grind it out. I mean, everybody and everybody learns at their own, their own pace. I mean, you know, I've talked to guys where that moment happened two years in or whatever, you know, I mean, it it depends on, like you said, the company you work for, you're obviously your brain capacity, you know, your, your brainpower. Right? You're, you're, you're, you're natural brain ability. But, a lot of it is a lot of it's based on a lot of outside factors. It's not just you, you know, you might have hard days and you're like, man, do I really want to do this? But, you know, yeah, you just got you just got to stick with it. And it's, it's very rewarding, man. There's nothing better than, you know, leaving the call after they're sweating or, you know, they're they're about to lose some product or whatever, and you just get it going for them.
Justin 00:11:08 And it's just like, oh, yeah, thank you. You know, thank you so much there. So it's so gratifying. You know, there.
John 00:11:13 Are very few there are very few industries where every day someone expresses the level of gratitude that gets expressed to an air conditioning technician. And that's I mean, I hear about that all the time that that look on their face when you just show up and they're like, thank God you're here. And then when they hear it kick on and they feel cold air coming on them, they're like, oh, Justin, thank you so much. Like, you know, nobody's getting that. And the drive through at home or at McDonald's. And then no one's getting that. You know, I mean there's just very, very few jobs where you have that kind of, that kind of feedback.
Justin 00:11:49 Right? And not to say that those jobs aren't important because, you know, they they yeah. You know, it's just, yeah. This is a it's just a it's just a different animal.
Justin 00:11:58 And I really like that, you know, I go from site to site. I'm not stuck in a building all day, you know, especially, you know, like I was telling you about my, my warehouse thing, like, do. Those jobs are so mundane. They're boring, you know, they're, they're they're not. And, you know, it's like the hiring practices for those are, you know, can you fog a mirror, you know, and then you're hired. You know, that's basically. Yeah. And I'll tell you, that's how some of the national accounts companies hiring strategies are to I mean, I'll tell you, I've worked behind guys who've used JB weld on a copper drive like they've used they've tried to use JB welding at the solar system. Why left, left piercing valves on things like that. And, you know, I left National accounts. The company that I work for now doesn't do national accounts. And they used to, talk to the owner. And the owner said, well, I refuse to do them anymore because they had a guy that used to take care of him, and he left So he said, okay, we're not doing any more national accounts.
Justin 00:12:49 Yeah. it's just like I said, it's a different animal, but. They're there. You can go behind, like, because you don't always go behind on your own work. So if you diagnose something, they might send somebody else, you know, because you're covering an entire state at a time. So, you know, or if you show up to somebody else's diagnosis and they got it wrong. So now you're stuck, you know, doing their job that they got paid for and were obviously wrong. Right. And now you're doing your own job. Right. So and and you I hear a lot on your podcast you talk about the customer experience or the customer, the customer relationships or the experience, you know, customer service. The customer service. Yeah. That doesn't matter in national accounts because you're talking to him. you're talking to a middle, a middle America manager who, they a they don't know what you're saying. All you, you know, you still have to talk to them and be like, okay, so what's happening? You know, just like a good tech would right? So what happened during, you know, the time that it failed or whatever.
Justin 00:13:50 But like, realistically you go up and, work for work on machines. So, it was said best to me by a hiring manager at one of these other companies. It was said, in residential, you work on you, you service the customer in commercial, you service the machine. And it's not true for all commercial, but especially national accounts. It's it's true because, you know, you you've got a pharmacy, you got, you know, one person likes it at 70, the other person likes it at 74. You can't make everybody happy. Right, right.
John 00:14:21 So plus on those kinds of customers there's often a redundant system. And so they're not actually hot. You know that there's there's a routine maintenance scheduled or there's some reason you're there. But it's not like they have to shut down the store, because you're there. So it has a different way about it.
Justin 00:14:38 Yeah. Well, I trust me. I've dealt with, you know, I've dealt with menopausal manager managers or whatever where they're never Well, you know, I'm just saying they're never comfortable and they're controlled by energy management.
Justin 00:14:48 So they set the setpoint at 72. And like, the best you can do for them is 70. And, you know, you show up and, hey, the machines run, everything's good and there's nothing you can do for them because energy management won't allow them to go further. And I've even, you know, I come down from the roof and this lady one time she said, she said it's still really hot. I said, ma'am, it's running and cooling right now. Like it's in fact. So, you know, it's like you can't argue with them, but you're like, it's running right now. I don't know how I can make it any better. Like it's dumping 55 degree air. Right on you what? Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, sometimes there's tips and tricks to that. You know, you leave the fan running all the time to make them feel like there's more air movement and things like that, you know? But that's all like I said, National, like I said, completely different animal I and right now, frankly, I'm so glad to be out of it.
Justin 00:15:37 But I'm, I'm definitely have to work on my customer service because you never I never had to care about it before, you know. Yeah, it's. Yeah It's an injustice.
John 00:15:45 And it is a very commercial air conditioning is a very particularly well on many levels. It's a very different thing from residential. Residential is a very personal, experience. You're in someone's home and, you know, there's usually in a residential world, we know from the marketing research, it's normally the female who picks the technician who comes in because she's got to feel safe that this guy's in her house, and he might be there on a weekday when maybe she's home and the husband isn't there. And you know that the, the, the, the relationship dynamic that goes into that and they'd be able being able to then say, hey, if something happens, can I text you to the technician as opposed to call this main number? You know, that's really not as common. Some of the commercial companies are leaning that way.
John 00:16:32 Siemens has started to do some stuff with using technicians as direct customer service interface. I mean that like this set of customers to say to that tech, those are your customers and you service those customers. But it still is not the same thing as a residential experience where, you know, it's it's just so much more personal.
Justin 00:16:53 Right? And the company that I work for now, they actually have, 2 or 3 people like in the office that manage all of the accounts. They get assigned their accounts. And, you know, sometimes we'll have to go to one of the owner's buddies houses or something or whatever, but, but that's the way that it is in a lot of the national accounts industry where you talk to, you don't talk to the client, you don't talk to anybody except the person who manages that account, be it nationwide or whatever states they control that account and or whatever. And you tell them what's wrong. And you, you know, they say, okay, fix it or we'll quote it or whatever, you know? So yeah.
Justin 00:17:28 it's yeah, it's I would say that National Council is perfect for new technicians and old technicians who are just trying to because like, there's little there's little supervision, there's little, there's little I mean, there's unfortunately a couple of company has worked at there's there's little accountability. So it's perfect for you to grind it out and learn. Yeah. But that it's not really good for family life or that kind of mid life, you know, say mid or late 20s to, you know, basically when the kids are growing up. Right. It's because you could literally. 2:00 oh we got a call two hours away. Yeah. You know and in the on call is so frequent. You know, it was basically one weekend every month basically. And during the week you're working until the work's done. Right? So I mean, you're talking 50, 60, sometimes 70 hour weeks, if not an occasional 80 sprinkled in there depending on how far you want to take it. So. hey.
John 00:18:29 That that's that's for real.
John 00:18:31 And there's lots of technicians now, there's ways to either negotiate into a different company or negotiate different things where you are. But it's not uncommon for techs to like, say to their kids, look, I just can't tell you if I'm going to be at practice today. I just don't know. I definitely can't tell you I'm going to coach your team because I just can't be there consistently. I can't tell my wife I'm going to be home for dinner. I don't know, like that that uncertainty grinds on a family over time.
Justin 00:18:58 And and that's and that's why I got out of it. I have a two and a half year, I have an almost three year old, and I have a three week old. yeah. July 15th, three week old. So. Oh my goodness. Well, congratulations for now. Yeah. So thank you. and it was, you know, it was time for me to start a family and, you know, try and you can't, you can tell them.
Justin 00:19:18 Oh, yeah, I'm only working 50, 55 hours, but then they're going to, you know, you just you're better off if you want to. If you have a family, you're better off sticking with the local company, you know, work your 40 hours, good benefits, you know, blah, blah, blah. You know, this company that I'm at right now, they offer actually overtime as double time in the summer from May 1st to, oh to September 30th. So they don't require you to work it. But if you're on a call and you were, you rack up 50, 60 hours, you're getting paid double time on that. Your extra 20 hours, you know. Nice. Yeah. So, like I said, there's certain companies and again, I like to tell people that in this industry, if you're looking for a good company, if you have a list of 5 or 6 things you want, pick the four most important and you you'll be lucky to find a company that gives you all.
Justin 00:20:11 I mean, you've been incredibly lucky to find a company that gives you everything that you want. Basically, it's down you. Basically, what it boils down to is what you what you can live with, right. Like there you you know it. That's that's all it is. It's like you can you can only get so much. No company is going to be perfect. I got a buddy in Michigan who says during the whole Covid shutdown, they paid their employees for two weeks to just sit home when it was all locked down and all that. And they, you know, I was like, oh, that's great. And they have good benefits and all that. I was like, man, that sounds great. I wonder what the drawbacks are. But he I mean, he works in the office. He works in the office. He's a project manager now. But but yeah, like I said, you know, these National council companies, I knew guys with families paying $1,000 a month in health insurance just for health insurance for cover their whole family, which that's like a minimum wage job.
Justin 00:21:02 Like, that's like seven, eight bucks an hour. That's insane. You know. Well, and that's.
John 00:21:07 That's the I'm hoping in the next couple of months here to have, distribute out to everybody in the, the HVAC lab audience, just a one pager to help you really break down when you're saying, well, you know, I work right now for ABC Corp, and I'm considering going to XYZ Corp. How do I really break down what I'm getting, where I am and and where I'm going? Because there's the there's the direct stuff, like you just said, how much money am I paying per month for insurance? Insurance is complicated. It's really hard to know whether I'm getting quote unquote good insurance. I mean, I know for sure hey, then I know what a deductible is, but it could be not covered over here. And it's covered there like, it's it's hard to know. And then there's all the intangibles, you know, I mean, you can say, well, this is my wage here.
John 00:21:54 They offered me $8 an hour more. But then what happens when this new place you're at? They just treat you like shit all day? Well, now you know. Is this now? Is it still worth eight bucks? So, you know, have I done my diligence? Have I talked to the other techs who worked there before? I make the jump to make sure there's some place I want to work. You know, that that one of the most important things that I'm trying to offer technicians right now is how do I make this decision? How do I how do I decide if I'm going to live with where I'm at? Because nobody, 95% of people, there's exceptions. But of tax, they don't say everything. Where I am, practically everything's perfect. Let me know what he says that. But you don't, you know, is it worth it to make the jump. And then now especially, I don't know. I bet this is true in Indianapolis as well. But some of the other markets that I work in, the wages for technicians are all over the place.
John 00:22:48 I mean, every week down here in South Louisiana, I'm hearing about technicians getting offered 10 to $15 an hour more to do basically the same job. And just like, wow, like real money, you know, to, you know, I I'm, I have one client. They've got multiple guys north of 50 bucks an hour. And it's just it's like you can't you can't serve as a contract if you don't have the guys. And then, you know, there's also this dynamic where the TNM companies can much more easily throw around money because they just passed the cost on in the next quote. Whereas if you have contracted maintenance, maintenance, then it's a it's more of a challenge. But but still there's so I would I would bet at least half of all the technicians in the country right now are processing should I stay here? Should I be looking for something different? You know, everybody hears the rumors. Oh, did you hear Earl? Earl got $15 an hour or more. And then you find out he doesn't get a truck.
John 00:23:49 He's gotta use his own truck or some, you know, some crazy. You know what I'm saying? Like, there's something, you know, so it it's making that that's not an easy one. In fact, I have a podcast coming up. I did one already on, you know, the triggers that would make you move from one place to another. But it's a big decision and there's a lot to account for.
Justin 00:24:09 And, you know, me and my buddies were talking about this the other day, there, I think and we think the I think the reason why it's so in-demand right now is that, yeah, it goes with that, that old saying like, I'm 35. Okay. So I caught the tail end of all these sayings like, they don't make it like they, they don't make them like they used to. Everything is like everything is planned obsolescence. These units are made. You might get 7 to 10 years out of it if you're lucky, if you don't maintain it, maybe 15 years if you're really heavy on your maintenance.
Justin 00:24:38 And that's just a residential system, not just a commercial system, right? So they don't they just don't make things like they used to. So more things are breaking. So everybody's busy. Everybody's busy. And that combined with, you know, all your older technicians, your elder statesmen who are retiring and there's nothing being done, at least on the mainstream level, to promote, new technicians or new growth for the field. So, I mean, I'm not gonna lie around the supply houses I go to, I see a lot of guys either my age or around their, you know, mid to late 20s, like more than I ever did when I first started. But I still think, I mean, when you combine all the factors, it's just there's so much work out there. Like, you know, I'm at that. You've talked about your, you know, your ten year crossroads. You know, I'm I'm kind of at that point right now. Like I'm not that free, but like, I want to I kind of want to start my own thing because I, you know, it just a little bit, you know.
Justin 00:25:35 You know, but I'm not quite there yet. You know, we're contemplating a move and blah, blah, blah, all this kind of stuff. But, it's you. You're you're not. You're not wrong. When when you talk to these people who say, you know, about ten years in, you get kind of you get kind of complacent or you get kind of, you know, used to everything and you're like, okay, what's next? Right? Like, you know, and then you sit here and you work for, you know, 1000 1200 bucks a week and you're like, well, I thought, I'm making a thousand 1200. What's my what's the owner make it? You know, like, how could he afford to pay me and ten other guys, you know, that much money and still make some himself. And I'm just like, you know, I go do a side job right now. I'll make a thousand bucks any day, you know? Like, why am I doing.
Justin 00:26:20 Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's it's it's I mean, it's true. You start to get to that point where you've got, you're like, okay, I've got the knowledge I can do this thing. And, you know, but now I have to go get a mechanical contractor's license. You have to start your you know, you have to. I'm not a I'm not a I'm not an entrepreneur. Your guy by nature. I've tried to learn about those kinds of things I've liked. I would like to be one. Risk is hard, man. Risk is hard. It's a hard thing to overcome. And you know, I know I hear all these people say, oh, you just gotta jump in. You just gotta jump in. It's just like, but when's the right time, you know? So yeah, it's it's tough, you know, the industry. But the industry is great. It's a great industry to be in if you like, using your brain, you know, if you're not someone who does, if you're someone who doesn't like to use their brain, go assemble parts, go work at a warehouse.
Justin 00:27:06 Go work in a machine shop. Go do you know, go do those mundane tasks. But if you really like to use your brain, join this industry. We need you. Yeah.
John 00:27:14 Yeah. No, 100% I agree. And especially on the commercial side, you know where you if you're doing maintenance and you walk up to a building and you just have no idea. Do you guys work on any schools also?
Justin 00:27:28 we not not not like public schools. I don't think we work on, I have worked on a company that had worked for a company that has, but, we have we have this little prep school. I think it's for like, you know, undereducated or underserved youth or whatever. but yeah, we don't we don't do a lot of school stuff. We do, you know, some hospital stuff, some chiller stuff, some basically a lot of, you know, strip centers. We work for a lot of property managers, and our property management company. Oh, well, and and as far as, like, like I said, strip centers, industrial buildings, things like that.
Justin 00:28:10 But,
John 00:28:11 Down here, schools are notorious for having super old equipment that, you know, they would have to pass some kind of something, you know, in the parish or with the state in order to really change out equipment on a mass scale. And so short of a hurricane, they just like, just keep this thing running, baby And so that the guys become kind of like maestros of taking a 25 year old piece of equipment and keeping it going.
Justin 00:28:37 And that's that's a lot of what National Accounts is they don't like to replace unless it's like dilapidated, like they like, there's one time I was working on a, just a, just a regular residential style air conditioner, but it was like from 1989 and we replaced the compressor on it. And I'm just like, why would you do that? Like it would probably be cheaper to just replace the condenser. It'd be easy, definitely easier, because where it was located, it was on like a stilt on the side of a building. And it's just like, why are you doing this? Why are you not? Why are you why are you not replacing this 1989? Like, you might get two more years out of this thing, but where something else fails, why not? They just.
Justin 00:29:12 But that's the way it is. It's just service service service service service service service service service. And it's, like I said, great for great for new technicians trying to learn the field. They'll start you as a PM guy for six months or whatever. Or, you know, you could even lie and say you've done service. And frankly, some of them don't even care. They just need bodies to show up at the calls. Because here you're talking. You're talking. You know how many family dollars dollar generals are in your state, right? We're talking. When I worked for the one company, they said that there was $600 generals in the state of Illinois alone. So when you come, you know what I'm saying? Like when you come on that with another $400 dollar trees, another 400 family dollars, you're talking about, you're just volume calls, volume, volume, volume. And they just need bodies to get there. And they'll send, you know, so and your, your, your margin for error on actually fixing the machine is very it's a lot larger because of because of said volume.
Justin 00:30:06 It's everybody knows it's hard to find techs right now. So you know only one guy can do so much in a day. Right. So, you know, it's but perfect. Perfect to learn or perfect to retire with, you know, the kids have left and you just want to go and work and nobody bother you. Go work in a national company. It's great. You just go run and do your thing and nobody really bother you but somebody will get upset. The guy who's, if you're messing up the guy behind you will get upset, but you won't get fired. They need people too much. You gotta really, really mess up to get fired. You know? So. But.
John 00:30:43 Well, Justin, let me ask you about this, because, you know, the purpose of this podcast is to find, perspectives and points of view that add value to technicians, and you're living it day to day. So what, in your opinion, is something like you'd want other technicians to, to, to like, pay attention to if they want their lives to be better?
Justin 00:31:05 Well, we touched on a little earlier.
Justin 00:31:08 You got to find a company that you like. because there's too many, you know, don't sit there and don't sit there. Don't sit there and deal with a company that you don't like. I got a buddy right now who accepted a field supervisor position, okay? At this national company, I call it field supervisor because he's doing he's. I mean, his job title hasn't changed. He still runs every call. He runs all the calls. Now he has to run all the calls that nobody else wants to run. And then he also has to deal with the tax. And it's he's got a boss that says, oh, nobody goes home before seven or you're fired. I mean, it's kind of it's one of those type of deals, right? Like you got to go to a company that, you know, and like I said, perfect for young single people, work all the hours you can get all the experience you can and then move on to the next phase when you're ready. but try to learn it like try to actually learn the job.
Justin 00:32:02 I mean, I can't tell you how many times I've gone behind people that misdiagnosed because either A they're lazy, B they're stupid, or c they just don't care, right? You got to care about your craft. And again, I tried I left National Comics because I was getting tired of being the guy on the second third trip. I was the one finally fixing it when it's just like, okay, there was 2 or 3 of you here before me, why am I, why am I, why do I have to Why do I have to come fix this? Right? So learn your trade. Learn the craft, learn it. I mean, the more, the more quality technicians that we have, the better everybody's life is. Because nobody wants to be sitting there at 5:00 on a Friday or getting called out at 9:00 on a Saturday. That's right. Because because some asshole didn't watch the coil when they were there or whatever, you know, whatever.
John 00:32:52 That's right. This is just this is another thing I hear a lot of which is it's a ten year Ted thing.
John 00:32:58 It's ten years that these guys year one of them, you know what you're doing. You have the experience. And there are days it feels like you get punished for it because, you know, a rookie has gone out and it's you know, we could we could turn that into a you know, either he shouldn't have been sent on that call or they didn't have anywhere else to send on that call. Or maybe it was him. He didn't handle it well himself. But for whatever reason, it's a callback. And now they trust you. And so that guy who screwed it up gets to go home and have dinner with his family. But you got to go out and see this piece of equipment. And that feeling, that's a real thing that happens every city in America with experienced technicians. And I don't know yet what the solution is, but boy, boy, does it make good people decide to work other other work at other companies.
Justin 00:33:49 Well, and like you said, that's like probably half the reason that ten year head wants to go start his own business or do whatever.
Justin 00:33:56 Because something you know, I've worked at several companies now and you can't escape it. This one's not so bad, but you can't you can't. You can't escape it. You're always going to go behind somebody who completely blew off the call, and then you're stuck picking up the pieces at 4 or 5:00, or even even if it's one 2:00, you're just like, okay, this is going to be a six hour job. And now I got to sit here or whatever, you know, and it's it's tough. I wish I really, truly wish I had a solution for that because you can't fix people's brains like that. There's a lot of people like, you know, a lot of people. I've seen a lot of drug use in, in, in the industry. And not just weed. Not. We're talking hard, hard drug use, you know. and I don't know if it's just that or the way people's brains are wired, but, like, I think people are inherently lazy or something like, if you don't have a strong work ethic, ye people are you're you're not gonna have a good time in this field.
Justin 00:34:55 That's all I'm saying. Yeah.
John 00:34:56 There's a there's an inherent challenge in this job. It's being an air conditioning technician, really being in craft labor generally, it's true, but especially for technicians, it's a very unsupervised job. For the most part, I mean, there's a supervisor who may ask questions, but they're almost never standing next to you while you're troubleshooting. And so unless you pick up the phone and call them. You know, or somebody just had like a really sideways conversation with the service manager and they're like, screw all of this. And now they're standing in front of a customer's piece of equipment and they're like, not engaged, you know? And it's if you worked in a factory, there's other dynamics that make sure you do what it is you have to do because something immediately goes wrong because of it. But you can just have something that creates a slow burn on a piece of equipment, and it doesn't really crash until six months from now. And you got it going and yeah, it's got this big, loud rattle, but they're cool and whatever.
John 00:36:03 I'm out of here, you know, or there's whatever it is, you know what I'm saying? That there's ways that there's ways to get it going, the movement going without actually fixing it. So you can just hit the road. Oh, absolutely. And it happens. It happens.
Justin 00:36:17 Oh, it happens a lot. Like I said, there wasn't that one of the national concert companies that I worked at. They had a guy who I mean, because national accounts, they only guarantee their work for 30 days before it's considered, you know, so it's a callback within 30 days, but after 30 days, it's a new call. It's a new issue. Man, this dude was the king of that. He'd, you know, bypass the frost or he'd bypass. He'd do all this dumb stuff that I had to go fix. Right? Because he was lazy, not because he was trying for the company, but because he was lazy. Right. Sure.
John 00:36:47 So it's and this was part of that challenge that that's probably a guy either.
John 00:36:54 Something's not he's not happy with the companies working with or maybe he's still in the grind. But the, the the flip side of this coin is that being good at your job feels great when you do it, you know? I mean, there's a very specific, immediate inherent reward in, in troubleshooting when you're good at it. And so I think there's this other side of it. And it's ironic because then you know, the ten year guys feel punished for being good at it. So they don't they get diminished satisfaction from it. But that's the goal is to get good enough that you do. It does feel good to do it.
Justin 00:37:32 You know. You know it is. I never thought of it in that way. Like the irony, like, yeah, you want to get good, but then when you get good, you just get pissed off because nobody's doing it the way that you would do it. That's right. So. So it's like you show up the call, it's like, man, I'm the best because you're not the best or whatever.
Justin 00:37:47 Like, I'm awesome because I figured this out in three other guys couldn't. But then you're like, wait, what are why are those three other guys getting paid? They're not doing it, you know? Right. It is. It's it's a it's a very it's a very ironic feeling. Feeling. Right. So yeah it's it's tough and I do I feel for I actually I'd like to make more money obviously I'd like to have my own thing, but I do a little tiny part of me feels for the business owners is like, how are you guys finding texts that are actually doing their job? Like, well, that is, you know, that is a question that I'll always wonder about, especially considering some of the things that I've seen in this industry. You know, this is kind of a saying that I've come across on my own, but like half of the work, that half of the repairs that you make is fixing somebody else's. Well, f up, right? Yeah. So, that and that's half of what my calls are.
Justin 00:38:38 Half of my calls are fixing other people's mess ups easily. Easily half. Right. So how do you find good texts? And I like I said little part. And that's another thing that kind of scares me is starting a business because like, how am I going to find a good enough tech that's going to work to the quality that I want? Right?
John 00:38:55 I will tell you what what here's what I'm observing. Here's what I'm observing. There are guys who go out as a solo operation if they can figure out the the marketing and the getting business consistently. I'll just since we're talking about it, I'll, I'll fill this in. Normally, if you're an individual technician wanting to be like on your own as a tech, you need to have 500 people, 500 customers who think of you first if something goes wrong, right? If you have 500 customers, you have enough to set, let's say 250 off season check ups at 99 bucks a pop, that gets you $25,000 in the off season minimum.
John 00:39:36 Then you get some more work out of that. But it's by it happens by working a customer base. So the real gap is to get from day 1 to 500 customers. The faster you can get there, the more stable you are as an individual guy. From there, it almost is like you got to find five guys who all have ten years of experience and go in together or something like that, because the idea of quote unquote finding attack, the amount of effort required. This is why I'm in this business, partly the amount of effort required to find or the luck to find somebody like you, Justin, just like you, who's looking and is ready to take action to go to another place, you know. I mean, it's almost like winning the lottery. It's it is very difficult, even though guys talk about looking and they kind of hear stories and whatnot, and but the thing is, something triggers it. There's a certain day and it's like, all right, now I've had enough, and that's that day.
John 00:40:39 But if you're the business owner and you weren't looking on that day, you missed it like a thief in the night, it's gone. Right? So you have to have this 24 over seven presence, getting to know guys before you're ready to hire them. So when this guy's ready, he calls you first. But then that takes a lot of effort to build out a pipeline of guys. And I don't have time to do this. I got to go in the field myself sometimes. And that dynamic of being a business owner in Arizona right now is very challenging. It's very challenging.
Justin 00:41:11 And just something like you said before, when you were talking about, you know, the factory life and the warehouse things, there's procedures that that every employee has to follow. So everything. So the work gets done right and it gets done right the first time. Or the, you know, worst case scenario the second time. Right. Yeah. But and there is accountability there, even if you don't really have to have a very stringent hiring process because anybody can do the work.
Justin 00:41:35 Right. It's easy work. Right? Not everybody can do this. Right. So you not only have to find the people who can do this, you have to find the people who can do this and not just say they can do it. And then.
John 00:41:47 And then we'll do.
Justin 00:41:48 It and then. Yeah, and then actually will do it. Right. Because I you're there's guys that talk the talk but don't walk the walk either for various reasons alcoholic or lazy or whatever, you know, you know or there's and there's.
John 00:42:04 Stuff like I this is one of my favorite stories I talked to attack from North Louisiana was a residential company, and they had sales quotas every week, which is not uncommon. You know, it's not the end of the world, have a sales quota. But this owner decided he was going to build a wall of shame. And every week in their sales meeting, he had eight by ten of every technician and whoever didn't meet their numbers from last week. On Monday, he would pick up their eight by ten and walk over to the Wall of Shame and hang it up during the meeting as part of telling guys they missed.
John 00:42:31 They missed their number. Like like that kind of nonsense. Like, this guy's going to go out and be really engaged with the customer now, you.
Justin 00:42:38 Know, and and that's why I don't really like residential companies. And I don't want to I don't want to put anything out there that you don't want anybody to hear. But I think the whole the residential industry is a racket. All they want you to do is sell. They all they want you to do is sell. And I know that's how they I know that's how they make their money. I understand that, but nobody is servicing machines anymore. It's oh, it's old. It needs to be replaced. Replace it I don't you're not finding residential techs that are really like, oh, let me dig real hard into this leak search and find this leak for you. You know? You know, I just think there's way too many shady practices. And then, like you said, oh, it's the slow time. Sell them a turbo cap.
Justin 00:43:17 Or, you know, how do I walk into somebody's house when it's the thermostat is reading the direct temperature that they have it set at and try and sell them something like, no, it's clear that it's working. Let me just move on to the next one, you know, like, yeah.
John 00:43:29 I don't think that's the tech.
Justin 00:43:30 Stop.
John 00:43:31 I think I think some of there is a business model dynamic there. I mean, I just I was just, you know, like there's a whole side of it when you get this talent shortage, then you get this stuff where. Well, can you take a guy who used to sell mattresses, trade him for two weeks and then have him catch calls and sell stuff? And I this to me, this is where that what what you're talking about starts to to happen. The for good or bad, the guy who really should be offering options to the homeowner is the guy who diagnosed a piece of equipment, like who knows what he's looking at, knows what he's doing.
John 00:44:09 Otherwise he actually doesn't even know how to fix it. He doesn't know. You know he can. He can say whatever he can. You know, maybe he sees the drain pans clogged or whatever, but he doesn't. He can't actually get inside the piece of equipment and do anything with it. So the only thing you can do is sell a change out. And I just think that there's a talent shortage that drives this dynamic for homeowners. And, it's tough. I mean, I know some guys, in fact, there's a you might know some of these guys in Indianapolis, there's a company called technique that is a, in my opinion, a terrific residential company. But I mean, they have really good technicians in that company. You can't be with them because they don't have any service managers. You can't work for that company unless you know what you're doing. And they put a lot of heat on their guys. If they find out they sold stuff that didn't, the homeowner didn't need. And so oh, that's good, you know.
John 00:45:04 So I mean, there's a there there are companies out there that are really solid. But what you're describing is, is real. I mean, there are companies that are like look. Especially the ones who are bought by equity. They just got just numbers on a page. You just got to, you know, just get out there and make a number happen. I don't know, I got it. Not really what this job is.
Justin 00:45:24 Right for sure. I got a buddy who, we used to work for one of the bigger name companies.
Speaker 3 00:45:29 In the area.
John 00:45:29 Let me let me correct what I said. That that company is technically outside of Indianapolis. It's good, guys. Heating and air in Indianapolis. just to for people who are listening, it's good guys heating and air, their technique all the rest of the country.
Justin 00:45:42 So I think I think I've seen those vans. I don't think I've ever talked to anybody in this house, but I think I've, I think I've seen him. I think I've seen him around town.
Justin 00:45:51 have you, have you had an installer on the podcast?
John 00:45:57 I think I'm not sure if I have.
Justin 00:46:01 Because I, I got a buddy who used to install what hits, how he got into the field, but he used to install for a big name company around here. I don't know how correct you want to be with the names, but anyways, he used to. He said that there were days where he would have to basically reframe rooms to get furnaces to fit, or, he there were days where they, they, they got the, they, they the, the, the salesman got the wrong size equipment. So he had to go back and get the right size equipment. And it's just, it's because they send sales guys out to do this. Technicians work. This is the exact.
John 00:46:35 Thing I'm talking about where the guy sold something. Parts get ordered, the install guy shows up and it's like, who? Who ordered this? What's what happened? And and then the install guys got to take twice the amount of time.
John 00:46:47 And then he gets chewed out for taking too much time. But the that's exactly the dynamic that I'm talking about that my own opinion. This is the good guys model too that we were talking about there. But my own opinion is it's just a better customer service experience. When you have an experienced guy, you don't have to hard sell stuff, you know, tell him what's wrong with it. Tell them what their options are. They probably have financing options. If it's a residential company doesn't it doesn't have to be the end of the world. You know, if you need a new piece of equipment, are you going to live here another ten years that you're going to move next year? I mean, factor in this stuff needs to be factored in, but give them the options so they can make a choice. I mean, we at our house, we we put in a new, 510 split last summer. but we wanted to put in a new piece of equipment. The one was there is 14 years old.
John 00:47:37 We intend to be here for another 20 years. Let's go. Let's change it out. We could have fixed it, but we wanted to change out. Right? But. Right. You know. But that's just. That is what it is like. Instead of feeling like, oh my gosh, we we don't have the money to do this, but he's telling us we're going to do this. Well, we don't have any choice. We're going to have to pay $15,000 for 510 split system. It's, this is what I got to do. You know it.
Justin 00:48:03 That's shady sales.
John 00:48:04 Dynamic.
Justin 00:48:04 Is. Yeah. It's shady sales tactics you're making. You're forcing the customer into thinking that you're there. They're the only. that's the only option for them basically. Right. Right. So it's. Yeah. Then like I said, I try and stay away from residential. I'll do I'll pick and choose my side jobs, but I'm not going to work for any of those companies. You know, it's just.
Justin 00:48:21 Yeah, I mean, I'd like to check out good guys, but I'm not really sure. I just don't really like being in in people's homes very much. You know, it's just kind of a, I like commercial. I've always done it right. So it's like being in somebody's home is actually kind of foreign to me. It's like kind of weird. It's just like, okay, it is personal, you know, very personal. It's. Yeah, it's really it's really kind of strange to me. So it's like I just kind of stick with commercial and, you know, the side jobs here and there. Somebody asked me if I'll do something. Sure. I'll come look at you come to your house and take a look at it and, you know, but yeah, that's, you get you.
John 00:48:57 Get a whole set of other issues, too, with, with, residential the. Oh, yeah. this is one of these guys from Good Guys that, when he was on the podcast, I said, do you have any advice for technicians And he said, well, if you're residential, if you go to the homeowner and the guy's got a monkey, don't pet it.
Justin 00:49:18 Yeah.
John 00:49:19 Yeah. So, I mean, it's a very different world to work residential. You just.
Justin 00:49:25 And people are weird, man. People are weird. I, like I said, I worked for this residential company for about six months. I was in one house. We had to do a duct cleaning. Okay? And this dude had, like, cat posters on the wall. Like, he was like, it was weird, man. You deal with weird people, hoarders, things like that. Like it's. Yeah, I it's not something that personally, at 35 I want to get into, you know.
John 00:49:48 So and that's the thing that the guys who do residential that way they love the part of it. They love it. It's like, you know, every day there's, you know, some new person, some new quirky personality, some new house dynamic that it's like, you know, what is it going to be today And those are the guys that are right for that, man.
John 00:50:10 They love that stuff. They love telling the stories and they love the craziness of it.
Justin 00:50:15 Oh for sure, for sure. So it looks like we're we're up against it here. You know, I was.
John 00:50:21 Thinking the same thing. We're just about out of time. So do you have any last words? It's your chance to tell the world.
Justin 00:50:30 Just just just if you listen, if you're going to get into it. Go all in. Don't don't don't don't put one foot in. One foot out. Because I did that, I did that. I was like, hey, do I like it? Should I do it? You know, and it was again part of the bad company, blah blah. Go all in. focus on learning, use tech support. You know, that's what they're there for. and don't screw over your fellow technicians. If you're on a call and something needs to be done, either do it or quote it, you know, or. Yeah, don't, you know, don't just rig it to get it going.
Justin 00:51:03 And then the on call guy is going to have to come after you in two days and, you know, get it going, you know. Yeah. So it's just embrace the field, embrace the knowledge. You know, like, this is a very you and I, I've heard several prior guests say it. You can get go into any avenue that you want in this industry, any avenue that you want. If National Council isn't for you, try chillers. If residential isn't for you, try commercial. You know if you want to go. If you want to go sit around and be a a plant maintenance technician. And for some for one of these, you know, that's more your speed there. You know, go work go you know go work for Nestle or go work for one of these companies that needs guys to work on their conveyors, their HVAC, the refrigerator, all that stuff.
John 00:51:49 I mean, process cooling, go, go learn controls. Go. I mean, there's all kind of stuff to do.
Justin 00:51:54 100% anywhere, any, any anyway, any, anything, anything you, you want to do or anything you think can be done with a boiler, chiller or HVAC machine can be done and you can fix it. Yeah. You know, I'm personally a dream of mine is to go, be the guy who takes care of the, the the the ice rinks, like the the the rink at the the, you know, the the machines that that make the for the ice rinks. Like, I'm a hockey fan. Big time hockey fan from Michigan. I'd love to go work. I'd love to go work at the the they call it Little Caesars Arena now up in Detroit. Love, love to work on that stuff just because like, you know, that's that's who I am. But you know, I work.
John 00:52:34 With the I worked with the tech in Houston who he did the grind. He got good at what he was doing and he was single and he wanted to travel. So he took a job with Siemens, commissioning equipment all over the planet.
John 00:52:45 He traveled for several years everywhere Asia, Africa, Europe, Australia, South America. I mean, he saw the world as an air conditioning technician.
Justin 00:52:58 Sounds awesome.
John 00:52:59 Conditioning equipment. And then when he was like, now it's time to settle down, I'm going to get married. It's like, okay, now I gotta do something else. But he did his time. I mean, not in a bad way, but he he he wanted to see the world, and he did as a tack. I mean, that I there's too many guys who don't really grasp what an opportunity it is to, once you've done the grind to to look at the world as a technician and just say, now what do I want? Because it's probably possible, you know, absolutely, absolutely.
Justin 00:53:28 Anywhere. Anywhere. Yeah.
John 00:53:30 So well, listen, Justin, I so appreciate your time. It's really great to get to know you better, too. So, but for now, we're going to bring it to an end because I'm sure you got another call to catch.
John 00:53:40 And and, we're out to do.
Justin 00:53:42 All right, buddy, thank you. Have a great day.
John 00:53:44 Thanks. You too.
Speaker 4 00:53:46 A good life is hard.
Speaker UU 00:53:49 At the HTC Joy lab. A good life is hard at the HVAC. Joy lab.