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Dentists, Puns, and Money is a podcast focused on two things: The financial topics relevant to dentists leaving clinical practice and the stories and lessons of dentists who have already done so.
1. The stories of dentists who have transitioned from full-time clinical dentistry.
2. The financial topics that are relevant for dentists making that transition.
If you’re a dentist thinking about your exit from clinical, and you’d like to learn from the experiences of other dentists who have made that transition, be sure to subscribe to your favorite podcast app.
Host Shawn Terrell also dives deep into the many financial components of exiting dentistry, including tax reduction strategies and how to live off your assets.
And, we try to keep it light by mixing in a bad joke… or two.
Please note: Dentists, Puns, and Money was previously known as The Practice Growth Podcast until March 2022.
Chris Pistorius
Voiceover: [00:00:00] Welcome to dentists, puns and money. I'm your host, Sean Terrell. My guest on today's show is Chris Pistorious. Chris is the founder of kickstart dental marketing, a company that works with dental practices across the country. To increase new patient flow. Chris. And I talk about how dental marketing has dramatically evolved in the last decade or so.
And we also discuss what dentists can do now to attract new patients and what Chris thinks about the implementation of video into a marketing campaign. As a reminder, you can get all the information discussed in today's conversation by visiting our website. Dentists, exit.com and clicking on the podcast tab. And if you are a dentist interested in taking the first step to find your eventual exit from active practice to financial independence.
Whether that's three months or 30 years away. Let's have a conversation. [00:01:00] You can schedule a discovery call with me by going to dentist exit.com and clicking on the schedule meeting tab in the top. Right corner of the main page.
And with that introduction. I hope you enjoy my conversation with Chris. Pistorious.
Shawn Terrell: All right, Chris, Pistorious welcome to dentist puns and money. I'm excited to hear your story and thanks for joining.
Chris Pistorius: Hey, Sean. Thanks for having me. I appreciate.
Shawn Terrell: My favorite place to start just with some, some background for the audience on sort of your journey. Could you share a little bit about how you've reached this current point of.
Chris Pistorius: It's, uh, it's been quite a journey for sure. I've owned this agency now. Uh, 13 years actually just recently. And, uh, when we first started, um, we weren't solely in dentistry. We were, we kind of, uh, we started taking on all kinds of different companies, you know, pretty much anybody that would pay us really.
So we'd have, you know, we had a few dentists, but we had, you know, autobody guys and attorneys and, you know, you name it. [00:02:00] Uh, I just quit this, you know, pretty good job back in the day. And, uh, had two little kids at the time. And my wife I think, was about ready to kill me for. Company, basically the zero revenue.
Um, so we took on anybody and we, you know, we did that for a year or two and we were successful, but what we found Sean was that, you know, When you take on a new industry, you've got to learn it as a marketing agency. and we were trying to do that, but sometimes by the time we learned the lingo and the logistics and, you know, everything that goes with a particular industry, sometimes it was too late and our clients would suffer from that because we were trying to figure out that our industry, right.
And so it was at that point where we made the decision, look, we need to niche down and we need to be an expert in one. Right in one industry. And so no, no cool story or unfortunately, but what we did is we, we saw that we had, I think at the time five or six dentists that were in our agency and we were getting great results for them and they were great [00:03:00] to work with and they paid their bills, which is always good.
And so. You know, we were like, let's do it. Let's go dentistry. And we knew it was extremely competitive. Everybody wants to sell to dentists. It seems like, but, um, we ran with it and since then we haven't, we haven't really looked back. So that's, and you know, there's been ups and downs and, you know, we started the agency back in the great recession of 2009 towards the end of it.
So we've seen all kinds of, you know, different ups and downs, but it's been quite a journey for sure.
Shawn Terrell: It's so interesting. And it's such a familiar story for anyone that works in the experts. Business , me included in that, you know, you're scared initially to go all in on one particular niche. And so, you try to sort of, hedge your bets a little bit and kind of keep a few other doors open for yourself and kind of, as you explain what you find is.
Um, you, you just get spread too thin, too quick, and you can't be all things to all people and to learn, to speak the language and really learn about the specific problems that an industry faces. You just have to go all in. Sounds like that's exactly what you guys [00:04:00] figured out as well. So 13 years ago you started, how long was it for you guys before you went all in on, on dentistry?
Chris Pistorius: I think it was about two years, maybe a little bit, a little bit longer than that, but relatively quick. And then in the grand scheme of things, you know, it just, it just became. You know, almost a burden when we take on a new industry, like there's so much in, in marketing and in digital marketing that you have to really understand.
I mean, for instance, ad copy. If we're doing, you know, $10,000 a month for an auto body shop, and we've got to know how to write ads, because that's really one of the most. One of the biggest things that makes an ad campaign successful on Google is, is the ad copy itself. And if you don't know that lingo and you don't know really how to talk to your target audience very quickly, right?
You only get like two or three lines, it's almost like an old classified ad. Right. Um, if you, if you can't do that, well, you're going to, you're not going to be that successful. So, you know, it, it, it helped us a lot to niche into that, but you're right, man. I mean, I'm, I'm like [00:05:00] looking at myself and I'm like, I can mark it to the world here.
Why am I limiting myself to, you know, the dental industry? And it took me a while to get over that hurdle and feel comfortable about it, but certainly glad we did.
Shawn Terrell: So now that you've gone all in on dentistry and you've, you've been all in on it for 10, 11 years. What, what are the big problems? What are the big services that you guys offer and help the problems that you help solve for dentists and dental practices?
Chris Pistorius: Well, I think, first of all, you know, 20 years ago, maybe even 15 years ago, it was much simpler to market a dental practice, right? Because you had put an ad in the yellow pages, you do some direct mail maybe. Um, and you're kind of done, you know, and it worked pretty well for you and there wasn't, but back then, there wasn't nearly as much competition as there is now for a local dental practice.
Well, Enter the internet, right? And now there's 500 places. You could market your dental practice locally, if you want it to, you're probably getting calls every week from, you know, maybe companies like me saying, Hey, you [00:06:00] need to mark it here, there or everywhere. And it can be very complex for a dental practice, right.
And really any type of local business on where do I spend my money? How do I know if it's going to work? You know, I don't want to make a mistake. And so one of the biggest problems that we see really Sean, is that a lot of dental practices will kind of just stick their head in the sand and not do it.
And they'll, you know, like, you know, what's worked for the last 20 years has worked. So I'm just going to keep on that. I'm going to kind of, kind of ignore all the noise around me and what we've seen as a result of that is some of these newer age competition coming in, especially like corporate dentistry.
Uh, kind of invading if you will. These local markets, is that the local guys, the guys that have been there and girls that have been there for, you know, years are getting passed up because they're, aren't doing things to be innovative and marketing and really trying to stand out. So that's certainly one of the problems we try to solve for.
Shawn Terrell: As a result of just the typical erosion of an active [00:07:00] patient base that every dental practice faces or is that people seeing something shiny or at a different dental practice, that's not being offered by their current practice that makes them change doctors.
Chris Pistorius: So here's, here's what's happening, right? The mediums that people used 20 years ago to find a dentist aren't the same mediums. Right? And so how people find a dentist now, other than word of mouth, that should always be your number one source of new patients. In my opinion, second is going to be on. Um, it's just the reality of it, whether you like it or not.
I've got, you know, years of data, we track every lead that comes in through our agency, to our clients and exactly where they came from, including print. We, we track direct mail, billboards, all of that stuff. Um, and by far, um, Google and online is the number one source. So the unfortunate thing here, and I don't like it either, but I'm in the industry.
People believe that the best dentist and I'm using air quotes here, the best dentists are the ones on the first page of Google. [00:08:00] Right? It's that whole perception is reality thing. And it's something we've got to deal with. And, you know, there's obviously no correlation between the quality of what you are in dentistry and where you rank on a search engine results page.
Right. But people don't think that way. And very 90% of people never make it to the second page of a. They just look at that first page because people are lazy. Sometimes they're impatient and they see what they see in that first page. And they that's who they start calling. And that's where they start going to people's websites.
And that's where a good majority of these new patients are finding their dentist.
Shawn Terrell: That's so interesting that you say that because almost every patient would have no way. Trying to determine who was actually the best clinical dentist, right. That they could see in their area. And so what I hear you saying is that how they sort of figure out who might be the best for them is just to Google it, see kind of what pops up, see what the website looks like and get a sense of who the dentist is as a person, what the office looks like and see if they can sort [00:09:00] of see themselves in that office.
And then, um, making the phone call from their booking online is that kind of the traditional journey for a new patient coming to a dental practice.
Chris Pistorius: Yeah. It's, it's weird because you know, 20 years ago people would just call you. Right. Well, now there's a lot of different ways people can reach out to you and we consult people on. And one of the biggest things that we do here in the first place is consultation. We'd look at. Where they are, what they're doing, what they have been doing.
What's their new patient flow looks like. And then, then that's when we really get into a solution, we've got to first understand that that particular practice, because every dentist is different. And if you don't think you're different from your competition, then that's a problem. We've got to figure out what your unique selling proposition is, why you're different than the other 20 dentists in your five mile radius, whatever it may be.
So a lot of what we do first is consultation to figure out how we need to get to where you want. Right. And then we put together the plan.
Shawn Terrell: What are some examples of that? Sorry to interrupt you, but what are some examples of how you help dentists discover what their [00:10:00] unique value proposition is to patients?
Chris Pistorius: Yeah. So the first thing that we do is we draw a new patient avatars. So we say, all right, who is your ideal patient? Is it the 25 to 35 year old female, two and a half kids and a golden retriever? Is it the 45 to 65 year old that maybe needs more cosmetic work? And it's okay to have more than one avatar, but you've got to have those avatars because if you don't know who it is that you want to come in to see you, then.
We're just throwing a bunch of money out and just hoping something sticks. And that's not the way that we like to do things. I mean, hope isn't a very good marketing strategy, right. So we really try to define what their market is. And some of that is driven by things like insurance. Right. Do you take Medicaid?
Um, do you not do, are you fee for service only? So that really helps us drive towards that. Are you looking for, you know, higher end cosmetics? Are you looking for, you know, lower end stuff, high hygiene stuff. So a lot of that determines, and you'd be surprised how many of them kind of don't really [00:11:00] know, right.
They don't understand who they want to come in. And then they don't really understand, you know, how to target them. So once we put, once we draw those new patient avatars and we come up with their unique selling proposition, what makes them different? That's when we've got the groundwork for a really solid marketing campaign.
Shawn Terrell: And that probably dictates the strategy that you use a little bit too, right? Depending on who that avatar is.
Chris Pistorius: Absolutely. I mean, everybody is talking about Google, Google, Google, Google, Google, right? And there's no doubt that that's number one source of people are using, but if you're a higher and a lot of people maybe not know this, but if you're a higher end dentist like fee for service doing high-end cosmetic work, you need to go advertise on.
And most people won't tell you that because it's not sexy and it's not popular. But the reason is there's not as many searches that are happening on bang, but it's an older demographic that have a little bit more money we found on bang. And I'll just tell you the story of why that is really quick, because sometimes when you go out and buy a brand new computer, a PC, right, Microsoft.
Well [00:12:00] guess what the default search engine is on a computer that you buy through Microsoft.
Shawn Terrell: Dang.
Chris Pistorius: cause being owns or Microsoft downs bang. Well, some of their older group who aren't tech savvy, some younger people too, they don't even know how to change their default search engine. Right. So they'll just use bang for years.
Right. And so that's where we want to start seeing, uh, to put advertising on. And it works really well. It's about half the cost of Google ads typically, and we get really good results with that, but that, again, that's for that higher end higher end cosmetic work, you know, it's a great strategy for them.
Shawn Terrell: So you determine sort of what the, the avatar is and you, you explore the different options and you gave a great example. There, one that I had never heard about how Bing is actually a decent place to be, if depending on the avatar that you're looking for. What's the process from there? How does a new dentist start working with kickstart dental?
Chris Pistorius: Well, the first thing that we do is what we call a [00:13:00] strategy session. Right. And I actually personally do every strategy session myself. We're really more of what you would consider a boutique agency. There's only 13 of us that work here, um, which certainly we're big enough to get things done, but we're not that, you know, multimedia.
Thousands of client type agency and we'll never, we'll be, um, we actually only take on one client in every market, so there's no threat of us taking on competition. And we actually only take on a certain number of clients every year, um just to kind of keep things so that we can focus on our, on our clients, but.
What I'm getting to is the first thing we do is the session. And I do that. And then that's when we start, I look at their competition, I look at their market, it comes up, I come up with all kinds of good data. I can even show them how many people there are in each market to every dentist. Right? So we look at things like that.
And then we start talking about who it is that they want and what their goals are. How many new patients do they have now? How many do they want? Do they have to hire an associate? If they get to that point, can they [00:14:00] handle that? Who's answering the calls with the front end. That's overlooked so much on because you can, you can spend thousands of dollars in marketing, but think about it.
All of those thousands of dollars, those leads are going to come into one place typically. And that's your front desk? Are they trained? Do they know how to close? And yes, I'm saying closes and sales because dentists are selling something, right? I mean, it's not sexy to say that you're selling something in dentistry, right.
But you are, you're selling a solution to a problem. And your front desk staff has to be trained on how to show people the value of your practice and why they need to schedule with you. So we go through things like that to kind of head to toe kind of business strategy of, of what they're doing and what I think it's going to take them to get that next level.
And then we do a full on proposal saying, look, if, if you want to you're here and you want to get to here. Here's what I think you should do based on our experience. And this is what it would cost.
Shawn Terrell: And what are some examples of what, what that service looks like? Is it an ongoing thing? Is it more of a one-time engagement where the [00:15:00] scope is limited by some services and an amount of time, just maybe a few different examples of what you guys offer.
Chris Pistorius: Yeah, it varies most, I would say 90% of our clients are with us. Long-term monthly. Um, I've got some clients who've been with us 11 years. But there's some times when somebody comes to us and I, you know, I'll say, look, I think you're in good shape here, but. Your website is in need of an update, right?
It's, it's slow it's at, and we'll just build a website for them. And that's really more of a one-time thing. Um, so it just kind of depends on what the need is and what they're looking to do.
Shawn Terrell: So I think we've touched on this a little bit, at least indirectly. One of the mistakes that dentists can can make is not having an online presence, I guess, is what I have heard You say. What are some of the other mistakes that a dentist might make in trying to effectively market their practice?
Chris Pistorius: You know, there's a lot in what you just said in terms of having an online presence. Right? So there's a lot of factors within that itself, but you know, I think, I think other marketing, um, [00:16:00] aspects can be strong. I think in some markets direct mail can make sense. Um, but no matter what marketing you do, today's technology allows you to track every.
So there's, it shouldn't be, you know, the thing I hear a lot is, you know, well, Google ads does, hasn't worked for me or this hasn't worked for me. And I ask why, and they're like, well, we ask the patients when they come. And that's that's good. I mean, you should be doing that, but what we've found with our studies is that that information can be very inaccurate because yeah.
Maybe they saw you on Google, but was it a Google ad? Was it Google organic? Was it in the map pack? Where was it specifically? Right, because that, that definitely changed marketing strategy. And also maybe they saw you on Google, but maybe they got a direct mail flyer first and they looked you up on. Right.
So what you really need to know is where the, the lead originated from. And so I think a mistake that I see as people and dentists, assuming that they know where their stuff is coming from, and then reality, when [00:17:00] we put our technology on it to track everything and it can, it can draw a pretty different picture.
Shawn Terrell: How does geography factor into dental marketing and the solutions that you guys offer? And just sort of, as an example, I mentioned, I'm an Iowa, you know, I live in an urban area in Iowa, if you will. And there might be a hundred dentists within 10 miles of where I live, but I grew up as a kid in a very rural part of Iowa, where there might be, let's say 10 dentists within a hundred miles.
So how does that factor into online marketing?
Chris Pistorius: Oh, it's huge. Um, I mean, we have clients in Manhattan, which is, you know, you basically just have to mark it for one block because of the population density. No joke. I mean, it's really, it's only a couple three blocks, but, um, anyway, and then like what you mentioned Iowa, I'm from the Midwest, I'm originally from Illinois and town of 500 people.
Right? So, um, there are instances like that where what we do doesn't make sense. And they need to do more kind of traditional, even yellow [00:18:00] page advertising. I mean, I know I kind of laughed at that earlier, but we do still see yellow page advertising as an infective medium and more rural markets with an older demographic.
Direct mail can work better than that. And, and internal marketing, you know, just, you know, getting somebody to go out to schools, you know, getting people to go out and just interact with community kind of beat cop type marketing. I call it, um, those, those methods typically work better in very rural areas.
Shawn Terrell: How big a problem is marketing for the average dentist. Maybe to put more practically how many, or what percentage, if you want to ballpark it of dentists or like, You know, I have 2000 active patients as long as 1800 of them come in every year. I'm good with that versus there's just more that are, that are spilling off every year and they need to make sure that even if they do have a successful practice with a lot of active patients, that there is a steady flow of new patients coming in every year.
That's kind of a long question, but maybe you follow what I'm driving towards there.
Chris Pistorius: I do. I think you'd be shocked by how many calls I get every [00:19:00] week, um, or inquiries from a dentist that's been in business 20 plus years saying, Hey, you know, everything's been great until two years ago or until three years ago, whatever it may be. And our new patients have been cutting down. And most of the time, the reason is, is because the competition is fierce.
There are more dentists now than there ever have been. And we are seeing more corporate dentistry coming into local markets and buying up practices for their DSOC. And sometimes you don't even know they're a DSO because they'll come in and, you know, keep the same name. They'll keep the doctor in place, whatever it may be.
But it's really, you know, the marketing dollars are coming from a major organization and they are just out there doing the marketing, spending the money and people. Pay attention to marketing and they go there. And if you're not doing something to get your name out there, then it's going to be a problem.
And you also have to think about your exit strategy. If you're going to sell your practice within five to 10 years, I can promise you that one of the factors of somebody buying your [00:20:00] practice is going to be your new patient flow and what that's looked like over the last one to three years. Right. And they're also going to ask, what is your marketing strategy?
Do you have any branding in place to get your name out there? So if you're looking to sell your practice, you know, making sure you're competing and getting your name out there is going to be a big, big thing.
Shawn Terrell: What I hear you saying is that there's more and more corporate dentistry and DSO is they can come in and sort of market at scale a lot more effectively than maybe the smaller privately owned dental practice. Is that more who your services are geared towards and your more ideal dentists that you work with or dental practice that you work with as the smaller privately owned practice.
Chris Pistorius: It is, uh, we work with, I mean, we have several clients that have multiple locations. I wouldn't necessarily call them a DSO, but you know, they they've, you know, they've come to us with one practice and now they have several, which is a good story. But I would say a majority of our clients, for sure, our local private individual practices, [00:21:00] um, we do have a couple of smaller DSPs that we work with.
Shawn Terrell: One of the questions I wanted to make sure I got to was video. Video is becoming more and more important with marketing. At some point, maybe I'll take my podcasts to video as well. Uh, how important is that right now for dental practices?
Chris Pistorius: It's very important. And a lot of people are going to cringe, sort of thought what I'm about ready to just say, but we are testing and seeing such success and Tik TOK advertising for dentists. if you don't know what tick tock is, you need to look it up. I personally, I'm not a huge social media fan, but I have to be involved because of what I do.
But, you know, You know, Facebook, right? Remember back when Facebook first started, it was mostly kids and, you know, younger people definitely using that platform. And over time, older people like me kind of took it over. And now the, the wheelhouse and Facebook are like 45 to 55 year olds. Right. And it took several years for that to happen.
Well, Tik talk it's, you know, at the beginning, mostly teenagers just screwing around with video and [00:22:00] having fun. Well, we're seeing a much quicker. A hockey stick up, um, two, eight usage of age. So now we're seeing older people now using tech talk and it's going very quickly that way. So we are testing, doing video ads on Tik TOK and it's working really well.
Um, so we're going to be probably implementing more of that to our clients. But video is huge because especially during the COVID AERA, if you will. During the COVID we had our clients, the doctors, personally, if they could, if they had the time do videos and put them on their website and post them about what they're doing, what their plans are in terms of making it safe for patients to be there.
Look at the end of the day, people trust humans, people buy from people. Right. And the more human you can make yourself, the more success you're going to have with marketing and video does a very good job of that. And so when I talk to doctors about doing video, they're like, oh man, it's just going to be, you know, thousands of dollars and this, you know, all [00:23:00] this, you know, production costs.
No, man, all you gotta do is get your phone. Those cameras on those phones are really good now
Shawn Terrell: Another 4k.
Chris Pistorius: exactly right. Just do an impromptu two or three minute video on whatever and post it out there or have us post it for you. It goes a long way and you know, video is going to be here for a long time.
So it's, it is an important part of a mix.
Shawn Terrell: You wrote a book called the ultimate guide to internet marketing for dentists. What was that experience like? And what's the response to that book then?
Chris Pistorius: It was horrible. I got to admit it was terrible writing that book because I'm not that great of a writer to be honest with you. So I'd have a lot of help, but it took me forever. And it, you know, my, my saying is, you know, done is better than perfect because I see so many people just kind of get stalled in their own, you know, processes and making sure everything's perfect before they actually do something.
Right. Well, that's what I did in this book. And it took me forever. [00:24:00] Right. But finally, I got kicked in the butt a couple of times and got it done, but it was quite a process. And it's, you know, it's a guide to, you know, if you have a dental practice and you're not sure how to market it, and you don't have a ton of money to spend, it's kind of grassroots ideas, tips, and tricks.
If you will, on how to market your practice effectively doing it yourself.
Shawn Terrell: Okay. It sounds a lot like the experience of me writing my book, it was white knuckling at the entire time. And trying to put away my perfection syndrome, if you could call it that and just sort of, Yeah.
done is better than perfect. You also host a podcast. I get the sense from just talking to you here, that you're a lot more comfortable in the podcast format.
Chris Pistorius: Yeah, it's called the dental marketing podcast. I got to really become more creative with my naming, but it's called the dental marketing podcast. I do it weekly. Typically I try to do a blend of, you know, interviewing people in the industry that are successful and how they become successful. And then also just, you know, some things.
From myself, you know, if, if I don't have a guest on, you know, what we're [00:25:00] seeing in the marketplace and what changes we're seeing and what's working well for dentists and what's not, um, so it can be informative. I, I try not to get too wordy and kind of get to the point. Cause I know most dentists don't have a ton of extra time.
So, uh, it's, it's very informational. You can find it anywhere, apple, Spotify, you know, wherever you go to get your podcasts.
Shawn Terrell: We've bounced all over the place. I think we've had some good content in there, but, uh, I guess anything that I haven't hit on or asked you about that You think would be important to, to add, or to mention about marketing for dental practice?
Chris Pistorius: You know, I, I think we've, I think we've covered a lot of it, honestly, Sean, you know, I, I think that, you know, this all starts with coming up with a plan, right? I mean, have goals. Right. As a practice, you know, what's your goal, what's your revenue goal for the end of the year, what's your revenue goal or whatever you want your goals to be for the end of the quarter, right?
Involve your team on those goals. And then once you have goals, that's when you can really figure out if you want to, if you need marketing or if you're in good shape or whatever it may be, but get some advice, talk to [00:26:00] different providers, you know, and, and just see what's going to make the most sense.
Shawn Terrell: Second to last question. Uh, the name of the podcast is dentist puns and money. I don't know if I asked you this before we hit record, but do you have a good dental joke or a dental pun that you, that you feel comfortable sharing with the audience?
Chris Pistorius: Oh, my goodness. I don't. I'm sorry. I man, dental is no joking matter, Sean. No, just kidding.
Shawn Terrell: There you go.
Chris Pistorius: don't, I don't man. I'm sorry. I'm drawing a blank.
Shawn Terrell: Well, that's my fault. I should've given you a better heads up for the question, but for those that are interested in learning more about kickstart dental and maybe starting a conversation with you to see, you know, do I have a problem with my practice? Do I not have a problem with my practice? And if I do, what is, what does the process of working with kickstart dental look like?
What's the, what's the best first step for that dentist or dental practice owner?
Chris Pistorius: Yeah, just go to our website, kickstart dental.com, check it out. We're pretty transparent on there. How, what we do and how we do things, but there's a free strategy [00:27:00] session button all over the place on that. That's the first place to start. Just fill that out. I do them all myself. Um, even if you have no intention of using us as a marketing agency, no problem.
I'm still do it because you'll, you'll get great insights on your market and your competition. And, um, you know, I'll go through all of it with you for free, no problem at all. So just go that way. And usually I'm available the next day more or soon after.
Shawn Terrell: That is Crispus story is founder of kickstart dental. Chris, thank you for sharing your expertise and for being a guest on dentists, puns, and money.
Chris Pistorius: Thanks, John. I appreciate it.
Voiceover: Thanks for listening to dentists, puns, and money. For more information about my day job, which is guiding dentists to their financial off ramp from active practice, you can visit dentist exit.com. And there you can find more information about us. Sign up for our email newsletter or schedule a discovery call with Sean.
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