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⚠️ Content Warning: This episode includes discussion of mental health, suicide prevention resources, and queer erasure.
📞 If you or someone you know is in crisis, call or text 988 to reach the Suicide & Crisis Lifeline, or visit 988lifeline.org. For LGBTQ+ youth, additional support is available at TheTrevorProject.org.
📞 If you or someone you know is in crisis, call or text 988 to reach the Suicide & Crisis Lifeline, or visit 988lifeline.org. For LGBTQ+ youth, additional support is available at TheTrevorProject.org.
This week’s Breaking News dives into the quiet, calculated removal of LGBTQ+ resources from the 988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline. The move—reportedly driven by Trump ally Richard Grenell—strips life-saving mental health support from queer and trans people under the guise of “neutrality.” We ask: when a hotline drops queer visibility, who exactly is it still serving?
Then, in our evergreen segment, we look at the broader right-wing campaign to defund care, rewrite visibility, and weaponize mental health. From tokenized representation to deliberate policy harm, we unpack how “inclusive” language gets hijacked—and what queer support actually requires.
Creators and Guests
Host
Harrison Fish
Harrison Fish is a dynamic personality and co-host of Wake Up! Provincetown, a lively morning talk show airing every Friday from the Provincetown Brewing Co. With a passion for community engagement, Harrison has become a staple in Provincetown, where he is also a working professional in the service industry. Since moving to Provincetown in 2016, he's dedicated to supporting local businesses and bringing people together through meaningful conversations. His work combines his love for broadcasting, entertainment, and activism, creating a platform for diverse voices in the heart of the town. When he's not on-air, Harrison can be found supporting local theater and the arts.
What is Queer Times?
Produced by the Provincetown Recoding Studio, Queer Times is the unapologetic, high-energy queer news podcast you didn’t know you needed. Hosted by comedy legend Kristen Becker and razor-sharp commentator Harrison Fish, this Provincetown-based show delivers a weekly breakdown of the latest in LGBTQ+ politics, pop culture, women’s sports, and whatever else we want—served with a side of chaos.
From breaking news that impacts queer lives to deep dives into the absurdity of today’s culture wars, Queer Times isn’t here to play nice—we’re here to wake up, sheeple! Whether you’re looking for biting analysis, unfiltered rants, or just a reason to scream into the void, we’ve got you covered.
Buckle up, because this isn’t your grandma’s news hour—these are Queer Times!
We're still in pride month. Thank god. Thank are you feeling prideful? Always. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Proud, I think, is the word. I think it's both words, actually. Sure. I think you know what? I have the Internet, and the Internet will tell me is it is having an excessively high opinion of oneself.
Speaker 1:Sounds like you were right.
Speaker 2:If the shoe fits. You could be proud. And looks amazing.
Speaker 1:It is pride week. I am not hungover. Work. Coffee. Iced coffee.
Speaker 1:She got hit with the vid real hard.
Speaker 2:Do you think it was COVID?
Speaker 1:I'm now that I have been through it and I'm still feeling the fatigue.
Speaker 2:Right. It's that lingering fatigue that
Speaker 1:really Is it COVID or depression?
Speaker 2:We we recorded our episode about mental health a few weeks ago and ever since then, my mental health has been in the toilet.
Speaker 1:And summer has happened, which is usually a good but I'm wondering if it's the influx of people in town. I don't think we talk about that enough as a community about how we live in a very tiny spit of land. Mhmm. And it's only sustains, you know, between three and five thousand people throughout the winter. And then summer hits, and all these people show up with all of their shit.
Speaker 2:I think this year was a problem because I I typically early May, I start back in a restaurant and I'm experiencing these people come in and there's this ramp up. But this year, I'm not working in the hospitality industry like I usually do and I feel like it's making harder it's harder for me
Speaker 1:to Leave the house.
Speaker 2:Leave the house. Yeah. And also experience the people coming to town. I was in Fort Lauderdale for a couple months this winter and not to reveal, and I know you'll be shocked that I am kind of proudly a what other more prudish people might call a raging slut.
Speaker 1:Girl gets it and there's nothing wrong with that. We do not shame.
Speaker 2:But I was in Fort Lauderdale and every day I was having great conversations with people and even if we didn't end up hooking up, it was it was even fulfilling in those conversations. I was hooking up a lot very safely. Just putting it out there. And and then I came back to Provincetown, and it was that kind of that same vibe still. And then the second the town kind of exploded again with Memorial Day Not
Speaker 1:even. I
Speaker 2:I'm not gonna critique them, but with Memorial Day, we
Speaker 1:had I'm not gonna critique them, but I'm gonna tell you right now in detail how much I do not enjoy them.
Speaker 2:Well, it's it's but it's not about who they are as people. But, basically, once town exploded with Memorial Day, then we had pride weekend the June. This current weekend is frolic weekend, which is men of color weekend. The town just overflows with gorgeous, charming men. And I'm like, oh, I let's let's keep this role going.
Speaker 2:But because of what Provincetown is, I've described Provincetown in the kind of sexual scene, I guess you would say, as like a merry-go-round that's just moving too fast to get on. And basically
Speaker 1:And if you jump in, you will get hurt. Yeah. Right.
Speaker 2:But basically, I'm there's 20 times more people on the apps, Grindr, Scruff, Sniffies, whatever, but I'm it's just everyone is so busy Look, just because they're like, oh, well, I have to go to tea. I have to go to see the show. Have to
Speaker 1:They have an agenda Yeah. Vacation agenda.
Speaker 2:Right. And also that vacation agenda when it comes to the sex they're having, it's like it's like they're
Speaker 1:on vacation. Standards?
Speaker 2:No. It's they do. They're too much. Oh. They want to leave with their sexual trophy.
Speaker 2:Oh. They don't they're not looking to connect with people. They're not and I I feel like I sound like Miranda right now. I don't know if you're a big Sex and the City fan, she's like, he's called me sexy. Sexy is what I try to make them feel after I win them over with my personality.
Speaker 2:But, like, like, they're on this merry-go-round of, like, trying to find the hottest guy they can so they can go home and show their friends the pictures of the guy. And not to I'm not being self deprecating or anything, but No. You know you're hot. Yes. But I'm not someone you're gonna show a picture of to your friends when they get home.
Speaker 2:They're like, yeah. That's a regular dude.
Speaker 1:I mean, I tell you what. If if I showed my friends a picture of you and been like this guy, they'd be like, what? They would lose their moppets.
Speaker 2:Which is why most of my friends are lesbian. Correct. Correct. But you know what I mean. It's it's hard and not to I I don't like the one to 10 scale for hotness, but, like, I feel like in the real world of people trying to get to know people and have continued intimate relationships with people, I'm smart, think.
Speaker 2:I'm I'm not saying these declaratively, but I think I'm smart, think I'm fairly handsome, I think I'm fairly sexy, I have good energy. I have a good vibe, but, like, none of that matters when you open Ebs. Grinders. Yeah. Ebs.
Speaker 2:When you open Grindr in P town and I have 28% body fat and that is the oneth percentile. You know what I mean?
Speaker 1:Now, what about Bear Week? Bear Week, I'm too skinny. Wow. There is Goldilocks.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Truly.
Speaker 1:Truly. Is no Yeah. I do agree with number one, I think you're handsome, and you know that. Thank you. I think that what you're saying makes a lot of sense in that you bring a lot of high quality individual things.
Speaker 1:You bring high character and moral compass and emotional intelligence and empathy and all of those things. And those are not anything that has any value in the summer season in Provincetown.
Speaker 2:Yeah. As a matter
Speaker 1:of fact, people would prefer to think less of that. They would rather you just come in their eye. Yeah. And And not to say like I'm I'm sure you would come in their eye. I didn't mean to imply that you wouldn't.
Speaker 2:But and and also not to say like, oh, those gays are terrible. It's like, I'm them I'm part of it as well. It's like you the profiles I'm reaching out to
Speaker 1:Are not ugly men.
Speaker 2:No. Exactly. But also and and because there's so many, it's I've it's I've never been not responded to more in the past month. Is. It's like I send a message, they view it, and it's nothing.
Speaker 1:Do we think that there is some sort of connection between your mental health? Because you just you were like the last month. And I'm like, oh, wait. Are are you are you just not getting enough dopamine hits from what? Sexual validation?
Speaker 1:From sexual validation. Because that's what it it kinda sounds like you you are falling into the trap of what the community sets its values as Totally. Even though it's not really yours. And you're like, wait. Why is no one why am I not getting getting it back?
Speaker 1:But in reality, you don't even want it. Like, you know?
Speaker 2:I guess it's like I want that and and also, like, not to be too too explicit, but, like, just the type of connections that I like to make through sex. Like, I want to connect with people. I'm that gay guy who, like, after we're
Speaker 1:done You have eye contact. I'm like, oh, hey.
Speaker 2:So what's your life like? You know what I mean?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Hence why all my friends are lesbians. Yeah. And it's tough. And I also I started smoking weed again, and I don't know if I mentioned that during our mental health episode, but I do think it is negative smoking weed negatively affects my mental health and I'm trying to be better about that.
Speaker 2:I stopped in the past week and it I do feel like there's a bit of an upturn in my mental health, which is great. Yeah. But also the the adjustments to town, I also think COVID or having been sick about a month ago and that fatigue also negatively affects it and the smoking the weed and the town. And I'm just like
Speaker 1:And what about the onslaught on the queer community that has I mean, it I I do think that there should be we should all get a little extra space right now because it is fucking hard out there in them streets. Yeah. Like, it is, you know But
Speaker 2:it's And it and it's also like, it's hard out in there in the streets. I'm watching my friends who have immigrated to The US stress and worry. I'm watching my trans friends stress and worry. I'm worried and stressed for them. And then it's like you open TikTok or the news and it's Israel bombing Palestine and Israel bombing Iran and Iran bombing Israel and Ukraine and Russia.
Speaker 2:I'm just like, it's
Speaker 1:so fucking much. I got called by
Speaker 2:And then I'm worried about getting responded to on sniffies. And I'm like, Jesus Christ. What's wrong with me?
Speaker 1:Well, you're living in the moment. And for that, I applaud you. Yeah. I think there's And then
Speaker 2:I feel guilty for that.
Speaker 1:I got a call from the CBS Boston station texted me. One of the reporters I I know was looking for a quote about, hey. Can we talk to you about the ending of the +1 800 LGBTQ suicide prevention line? They were like, hey. You know, do you have anything to say about this?
Speaker 1:And I was tempted to not do this interview because I've done an interview with this channel before, and it seems like never goes quite the way I think it's gonna go. And so for those people who are like, oh, the left is all, like, attached to the media. Absolutely not. I've been a part of enough interviews where they have gotten it wrong that I 100 believe I'm 100% believe that we have a situation in the media and how it is run. And so I was hesitant, but I also feel very strongly that my perspective right now in queer rights is not one of victim, it's one of fortitude.
Speaker 1:And so I know that a lot of people in the interview were like, people are gonna die because of this. This is another relentless attack on our community. Whereas my perspective was like, oh, the party of pro life wants to end the suicide hotline. And good for them. We'll figure it out.
Speaker 1:As a community, this is not the first time we've been attacked. We've been attacked before. We'll rally around ourselves, and we'll make it happen. But I'm not gonna you know what I mean? Of course, they cut out the line where I was like, oh, the pro life party wants to remove suicide hotlines.
Speaker 1:Right? Like and and that's the part where I was just so frustrated. Was like, wow. Can we please call it what it is? Like like, you're at the the edit was victim.
Speaker 1:Right? And and I get it. We wanna have compassion for young adults and and everybody who has mental health issues, but that's not going to protect our community in any way. No. That's not going to it's not taken care of.
Speaker 1:It is not mutual aid. It's just pointing at the bad thing as the bully is doing the bad thing. And they were like, oh, and during pride month. I was like, of course, during pride month. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Of course. This is they want maximum impact.
Speaker 2:It's like not that it's foolish to say, but saying like people are gonna die because of this, it's like they know. That's the point.
Speaker 1:That's literally the point.
Speaker 2:Let's talk about that though. Yeah. So the Trump administration eliminated crucial funding for the suicide hotline that was dedicated to LGBTQ plus youth in within a month. So they it was effective July 17, which is when it will go away and shut down. I do wanna remind everyone right up front that The Trevor Project also has these types of resources.
Speaker 2:You can go to the trevorproject.org and they have resources. I think you can chat online, you can chat over the A
Speaker 1:lot of crisis services. Yes. Exactly. That is what they do the most. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:And Canada has stepped up
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And said, hey. And I think that's the other thing too that's interesting is that we are in a day and age where you can kind of outsource resources because this generation is so text heavy, and you can WhatsApp. Like, we have a counselor who has WhatsApp and can be anywhere in the country, and our, you know, our sassers could shoot a text if they were in in crisis. That's great.
Speaker 2:Let's talk about some statistics from the Trevor Project. So they estimate that one point eight million queer youth in The US seriously consider suicide each year and at least one attempts suicide every forty five seconds. Wow. Again, I'm so grateful that the Trevor Project has these types of resources, I do think especially with numbers like that, I think there needs to be as many as possible. And I think the US government should offer suicide hotlines for everyone and specialized hotlines for the most susceptible groups.
Speaker 1:Well, let's talk about that. Because I you know, as the person who's always like, but I had this thought of like I was like, alright. Are we going to stop specializing our hotline? We do have a hotline. A hotline exists if that was the intent.
Speaker 1:Like, you know, I love to give my conservative friends the benefit of the doubt. I love to give the people I know and love that I grew up with a benefit of the doubt and and to think that maybe there is just things I'm not hearing because I live in a liberal bubble. Mhmm. And that's not getting to me because of the media we just discussed. Right?
Speaker 1:Like, the things are getting framed in a certain way for certain communities because it's about ratings, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. But if I were a caring administration about my entire population, when I removed this line, this crisis line specifically for LGBTQ plus folks and and and young adults, I would have said, hey. Remember, we have 988. We have a a national crisis hotline. And if you call there and you press number 1, you can get someone who specializes in LGBTQ care.
Speaker 1:Right? Like, there is actually a way to cut what they consider wasteful spending and manage resources in a way that could service everyone in our community. But they are not in any way doing that. Right. And that's how we know it's homophobia and not us just being low bitches.
Speaker 1:Do you know what I mean? Like, I feel like there's so many reasonable ways that this could be done under the the real belief of cutting the government. Mhmm. But they're not doing that in any way. They're overreaching the government in every possible way that they can to control us, and then they're cutting resources to everybody who is on the fringe minority, whether it's through ethnicity or gender identity or sexuality, etcetera.
Speaker 2:On that same topic, and I know this isn't what you're arguing, but like the thing is is like there needs to be a specialization because the issues that young queer people and queer people in general and trans people in general face are different and specific. Correct. And those statistics of having more queer youth consider suicide than non queer youth, and the fact that at least one attempts suicide every forty five seconds is for very specific reasons. It's like being a trans person in this day and age, it's like you open the internet, you open the news and your You open your door. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Your existence is being questioned at every corner. Your rights are being questioned at every corner by people that have nothing to do with your lived experiences.
Speaker 1:Your mental stability is being questioned
Speaker 2:at every corner. I do feel like there should obviously be specialized suicide hotlines for these types of people.
Speaker 1:No. I definitely think there could be. I just think that there's a way to make it a part of a bigger umbrella and a reorganization that if this government really gave a shit about anybody, they would have done that. Mhmm. And they didn't do that.
Speaker 1:I think at the end of the day, this is a time for action. It's a time to circle the wagons. It's a time to really build the community locally. It's a time to check on your friends regularly. The work to be done right now is taking care of each other.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. We're getting hit with a bunch of stuff pretty quickly all during pride month. And I wish I could say that, well, at least we're gonna get it all out in this month, but I don't think that's real.
Speaker 2:Right. I also think it's a time for intersectionality. Correct. Which is I know this gets talked about a lot, but it's anyone that this administration is attacking should be supporting everyone that this administration is attacking. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Like, you're a queer person and you're being attacked, a trans person, you're being attacked, an immigrant, you're being attacked, Women, you're being attacked. I feel like it is important for all of those groups to be there for each other and speak up for each other amongst them.
Speaker 1:I think it's the only way. Mhmm. Is for us to band together to beat it down. Mhmm. But what about the normal gays?
Speaker 1:Stop it. What about did you see that?
Speaker 2:I did.
Speaker 1:You wanna talk about it? I wanna talk about it. Because I think it's really very much like when you when you were when we were introducing Queer Times and you were expounding on, like, kind of your idea of queer identity and what it means Mhmm. People really responded to that. And when I saw this interview, I was like, wow.
Speaker 1:This guy
Speaker 2:That's what it is.
Speaker 1:Yeah. That's what it is.
Speaker 2:I do wanna say one more thing about the suicide hotline because you mentioned like, oh, it's about budgets and blah blah blah. Like, I don't wanna hear it anymore. You've like, we've watched this administration give outrageous tax cuts to the rich. Right. Send out it's it's so hard to watch.
Speaker 1:You don't believe this is about fiscal responsibility? No.
Speaker 2:It's so hard to watch bombs and planes be being dropped on civilians that our tax dollars paid for
Speaker 1:in Are we giving these to other countries or are we selling these to other countries?
Speaker 2:I'm fairly I mean, Israel is all but funded by The United States tax dollars. And what's extra frustrating is Israel is so propped up by the United States government and our tax dollars. Meanwhile, their citizens have so many more rights and privileges than we do. They have medic they have Medicare for all or they have universal health care. They have college tuition forgiven.
Speaker 2:Like, it's so frustrating that they're like, the people who have less rights taxes are being used to give other people outside of our country a better life than we have. But you still wouldn't leave?
Speaker 1:No. And is that because the Americana stuck? Like is that because you watched a parade when you were five and there's something deep inside of you that's like I bleed red, white, and blue? Are you still at the I will fight for my country age?
Speaker 2:I I guess maybe. I think The United States is having a really bad moment right now and we've had endless bad moments in the past, but I still think that The United States could be the best country in the world if it goes in the direction that I think it should go, and the direction that I'm fighting for, and I see a lot of other people fighting for.
Speaker 1:What if in the grand scheme of world history, The US is just always gonna be the young drunk cousin, and Canada is really the right answer. Like like that through the evolution. Alright. Well, we watch what we did here. That didn't work.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. And now we see a new incarnation of it. And quite frankly, if you you know, some of this Ireland is one of the safest countries right now. And that was not true many years ago when there was a lot of civil unrest and stuff going on. And so I'm kind of looking at it as as humans on a planet, there's all of these different levels of evolution happening and moving from country to country.
Speaker 1:And like, it is now our turn for the empire to fall and for the civil unrest to begin. Oh, yeah. And I'm just I used to be somebody who was like, I would never leave this country. Because I believe it is the best, and it has the right ideals. And I love the people here.
Speaker 1:And now I'm kind of like, oh, we are on a ship that is on fire in a storm.
Speaker 2:I see what you're saying. Historically, like, we are kind of We're due. We're we're on the tail end of the stages of an empire. Collapse. But I mean, if you also look at history and you see what we're going through now, and this is what I'm more hopeful now for is like at the end of any ideology, there's always a big like death push.
Speaker 2:And I'm hoping that is what we're seeing in The United States and around the world which is Patriarchal last gasp? I hope so. Or at least conservatism and republicanism. I'm hoping it's the last last gasp of those things. I'm hoping a lot of people are waking up to seeing what conservatism and what the Republican Party has become and what that is doing to our world And I'm hoping this is the end.
Speaker 2:Eat the rich. Hell yeah.
Speaker 1:The reason I believe the LGBTQ plus community has made such progress in the last twenty years is that it transcends race, ethnicity, everything. Right? There are queer people on every continent. There are queer people of every skin tone, of every religious belief, of of every faith. Right?
Speaker 1:And so I believe that it was that ability of others to know someone who looked like them Mhmm. Who was also queer. Like, that was a really great way for our community to make progress rapidly. Yeah. Because you would find one of us in every shade and type.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, I always say that it's like the I feel like the reason the queer movement has moved so quickly in comparative to other ones, it's like we the queer people infiltrate everywhere. It's like We are everywhere. Yeah. And it's like
Speaker 1:It's not infiltrating. It's of. Right. Like like queer people are of every Right. Every skin color, every religion.
Speaker 1:Right. And I'm not saying like And we don't even make them ourselves. Right. Exactly. The crazy part.
Speaker 1:The part that I just really can't wrap my head around.
Speaker 2:Well, it's like every family probably has a queer person in it. So they have to confront their ideologies bucked up against the fact that there is someone who they're intrinsically supposed to love. But tell us a little about this clip of this interview that you saw.
Speaker 1:Well, Richard Grinnell, what is his exact title?
Speaker 2:So, yeah. Let's go into a little of who Richard Grinnell is. He's an American diplomat, public official. He's the former public relations consultant who served as a special presidential envoy for special missions since 2025 under president Trump. He is a member of the president of the Republican party.
Speaker 2:He served as acting director of national intelligence in 2020 under Donald Trump. He became the first openly gay cabinet level official in US history, which I hate that because he's awful. He previously served as The United States ambassador to Germany from 2018 to 2020, which was under president Trump. And as the special presidential envoy for Serbia Serbia and Kosovo peace negotiations. So he is their diversity hire?
Speaker 1:Yeah. And he's a rich old white man.
Speaker 2:He's a rich old white man, and I you I feel like it is another one of those things where the richness and the whiteness often trumps LGBTQness.
Speaker 1:Well, it's their way to say, hey. What do you mean we don't like LGBTQ folks? We have literally have one Yeah. In our ranks who we love. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Because he does not challenge us in any way.
Speaker 2:But he's also the ultimate pick me.
Speaker 1:Yeah. No. His exact quote was he went to a pride parade Mhmm. And I found it embarrassing, frankly. He was really he's like, everything's about kinks and fetishes, and, like, I can tell you.
Speaker 1:And this is what he said to me. He's like, most normal gays feel that way. That's what he said to the reporter. And I can say with I I can say with confidence that most normal gays feel that way.
Speaker 2:Who are these normal I I I know what normal gays are, and it's most of them. This doesn't read as normal to me.
Speaker 1:What does this read to you as? Pick me. A pick me game.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's just like, oh, I'm just like you. And people often think Stonewall as this, like, triumphant first singular moment of queer rights activism. And obviously, there's been queer rights movements historically for centuries, forever. But people don't understand that there was a lot of gay rights movements that were happening before Stonewall, but they were specifically predicated on the idea that we're just like you.
Speaker 1:That we will pass. Yeah. And you won't even be able to know it unless you're in our bedroom.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And it's like, we're just like you. We wanna get married. We wanna we wanna have kids. We want and part of And
Speaker 1:I I I was one of those. Mhmm. Like, full disclosure. That was definitely like you go like 2011, 2012, there was probably an interview of me on the Buffalo News with my fiance being like, yeah, we just wanna get married just like you wanna get married.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Which also like, that's true. That's real. But I feel like part of these movements were specifically excluding people that weren't just like you. They were excluding people of color.
Speaker 2:They were excluding trans people. They were saying, we're like you. We're not like them. You should hate them. And it's throwing people under the bus that are ease more easily to throw under the bus for your own gain.
Speaker 2:And that is something that specifically white people do and specifically rich white men do. You know what I mean? Yes. It's like, no, I am so close to having this full sense of privilege of being a white male. And you should ignore the fact that I'm gay because I'm a white male.
Speaker 2:I'm not like those other not normal gays, you know? Right. And that's what I mean by he's Freaks. Yeah. Exactly.
Speaker 1:Because that's what they mean. Mhmm. And it's literally just because they have a boring sex life. Yeah. Like, it it it blows it's true, though.
Speaker 1:Like, it it blows my mind. Like, the idea that we would all be the same. Again, like, you know I'm really into spectrum as a concept. Mhmm. And we are all landing one little dot on this huge spectrum of life experiences and this idea that all the LGBTQ folks in the world are going to wear polo shirts if they have an Audi, you know, and wear polo shirts if they have an Indy, quite frankly.
Speaker 1:Turns out it's all just wearing polo shirts.
Speaker 2:That's what it's about.
Speaker 1:Lesbians are wearing polo.
Speaker 2:Blue polo shirts,
Speaker 1:cat Salmon polo if you're if you
Speaker 2:are Sperry boat shoes.
Speaker 1:That's it. And and as long as you do that, we'll accept you.
Speaker 2:And he represents a resurgence in that. I feel like through from Stonewall through the eighties, the AIDS crisis, nineties, early two thousands, there was kind of this communal we're all in this together kind of idea. And now that so many queer people Have money. Have money or don't Couldn't get fired. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Don't have to hide because of the work that others have done for them. It's and especially, like, living in Providence, I'll talk to these people about the state these older white men about the state of the world, and they're just like, I had to cut someone out of my life because we were talking about politics and the state of the world. And he's like, you just don't understand what it was like to work in corporate America in the nineties as a gay person. Oh. And I'm like I'm like, I don't care.
Speaker 1:No. And you shouldn't have to care.
Speaker 2:I don't care that you were hiding, that it was so hard for you to hide as a wealthy white man in corporate America while you were waiting for a bunch of black trans women to do the work for you so that you could step out of that. I don't care that that was hard for you. And now that you can step out because of the work that those people have done, you've turned your back on them. And that's what this is and that is what has been happening in the last ten to fifteen years is so many people are resting now that they've crossed the finish line. If they're white enough, wealthy enough to assimilate and have the privilege that they have always strived for and that you're then turning around and pointing your finger at the weirdos like this guy.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. It's just it's absolutely disgusting and appalling to me and I see it a lot in the Provincetown community. Oh, it happens all the time here.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I mean, you know, obviously, the work that I do in town is with a lot of gender diversity. Mhmm. And and eth ethnic diversity, race diversity, etcetera. And so just, you know, when you go through town near or around people who look a little bit more different than you do, you get to absorb everyone else's reactions to those people.
Speaker 1:Right? And there's definitely a lot of either outright rejection of it or underestimation of abilities. And also to cut these people a little of a little slack, I get and not to be ageist or anything,
Speaker 2:but like you're reaching your twilight years. You had such an ex you had an experience that I'll never be able to rate relate to, which was going through the AIDS crisis and watching your community decimated.
Speaker 1:Like I mean, for real. I would be ready to be like, I'm I'm all set.
Speaker 2:That's kinda what I mean. I'm like to I'm like, go sit on get your rocking chair, chill out, but maybe and let the people who are still trying to fight for people and fight for themselves, let them have the spotlight. You don't need to browbeat them and be like, you don't know what it was like to be in corporate America as a white gay guy in the nineties. I'm like, okay.
Speaker 1:And now But you were allowed
Speaker 2:to be corporate America. Houses and a house in Provincetown that you rent out for $20 a week.
Speaker 1:And you were allowed to be Because you could hide. Exactly. Because when you walked into a room, they couldn't tell.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And you you could hide and wait for the people who couldn't hide to get you privilege. And then once you got that privilege, you turned your back on the people that fought for it.
Speaker 1:Instead, you should just go have a martini and some hors d'oeuvres and write a check to a mutual aid group.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I I mean, when I got to Provincetown, I really loved it. I was like, wow. It's so incredible how there are so many Old gays? There are so many wealthy people, and they're so kind, and everyone interacts with each other.
Speaker 2:And now I would give anything to not have to interact with old white gay men.
Speaker 1:Not all of them.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I'm speaking in general terms. Obviously, not all of them. But it's a perspective thing in
Speaker 1:the Get me trying to get you out of trouble. I'm like, fuck.
Speaker 2:I don't mind being in trouble.
Speaker 1:Okay. Oh, that what is that thing?
Speaker 2:I've already been in trouble.
Speaker 1:Oh, no.
Speaker 2:I've said all these things before. Sorry. And it's just like, I understand that you wanna live in your privilege. Go for it. But don't tell the people who are still fighting that they're wrong or that they shouldn't be fighting.
Speaker 1:I think that's the key component. Telling people that they shouldn't be fighting just because you found a spot. And just this constant perpetuating the idea that we're all gonna be alike. Like, that way like, I will say though, this is happening while heterosexuals are working really hard to reaffirm the gender binary. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:And so I think that part of that is I think we need to acknowledge that this is bigger than just in the queer community, that there is a large scale push from making sure that white Christians are having a lot of babies, to making sure that a woman is very, very stringently defined. And and, you know, I have a friend who works at a Catholic high school, is a principal, and was just in a in a blue city, in a blue state, who was just here, and I, like, took my hat off. I'll do it for you guys. Here we go. I took my hat off.
Speaker 1:I'm like, I have hair, but I have short hair. And she was like and when we used to hang out, we were both like ponytailed lesbians. You know? And she was like, oh, I wanna cut my hair. I don't think I can cut my hair.
Speaker 1:And that was a I was like, is that real? And she's like, no. I think that's real.
Speaker 2:Because she works in a Catholic high school.
Speaker 1:Because she's the principal of a Catholic high school, and cutting her hair would be might be the one thing
Speaker 2:That would, like, push her into that otherness.
Speaker 1:Into the otherness. Like, if you if you at least grow your hair long and put it in a ponytail, we could pretend you're Caitlin Clark. We could pretend you're straight. Mhmm. And and that, you know, we can we can just oh, you were just a sporty.
Speaker 2:Well, it's also you're not confronting
Speaker 1:Even though she has a wife and a child. Like, let's be clear. And and I don't think that in any way she's existing in the closet. I don't think they don't know that. But there's a difference between your community, your school, or whoever your job kind of knowing you are and being the face of an organization that if a simple haircut pushes you over the line of how you present, then you might be fired.
Speaker 2:Well, it's because you're con you you you're not making them uncomfortable.
Speaker 1:You're not making them uncomfortable.
Speaker 2:You're still a woman. You're not bucking gender binaries, you're you still have your long hair. But if you were to change I understand what she's saying. If you were to change that, all of a sudden, are infringing on their comfortableness, which is what is the problem.
Speaker 1:That is the ultimate problem, is their discomfort. What I have
Speaker 2:to say to these people like Richard Grinnell and the people that are not like other gays, it's like they're not gonna they they're gonna tokenize you and use you as an example like you said earlier. It's like, oh, we've got a gay guy. Yeah. You know? But once they've destroyed, decimated, dehumanized everyone beyond you, they're they're not gonna stop.
Speaker 2:No. They're gonna like, they don't want you either. Yeah. But they'll be dead by then. Right.
Speaker 1:And I think that's really they're just like, yeah. Oh, you know, like, I'm running from the monster and I'm just gonna keep throwing things in the path. Literally. And hopefully, I will die before the monster gets to me.
Speaker 2:Like, you'll see these people be like, oh, I'm not I'm not like a regular gay I'm not like those other gays who list I'm not gonna listen to Lady Gaga and wear rainbows and but it's just like, okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Well, this idea if we, like, do all like, just this idea that, like, there are straight people who are sex workers, and there are straight people who are not sex workers. There are straight people who like sports, and there are straight people who don't like sports.
Speaker 1:Like, this idea
Speaker 2:And there are also gay people who like sports and gay people who don't like sports, and that doesn't make you better, different
Speaker 1:Or less gay or more gay.
Speaker 2:Less gay. Exactly.
Speaker 1:No. It's really there are gay people who are fucking all the time. There are gay people who are barely fucking.
Speaker 2:Your heteronormativity won't save you. They still fucking hate you.
Speaker 1:They still hate you, and they're just busy. You are just pointing them in your hate into someone else's
Speaker 2:And I'm not if if you truly desire to be to live a life of heteronormativity, That's fine. Yeah. Yes. Please do Be you. That is part of like we talked about in the first episode, my ideology of queerness.
Speaker 2:It's like be queer. You being queer is being whoever you want without hurting other people and allowing people to be whatever you want. And if and the moment you stop being queer is when you start demonizing the Lady Gaga gays and like, you can be you can have your dog and your two kids and your white picket fence and your partner and live in a house and go to PTA meetings. But that to then turn around and be like, yuck. But those people are awful.
Speaker 2:Like, that's where you stop being a part of the queer community in which I belong to.
Speaker 1:It's literally why we just keep adding letters. Yeah. We just keep saying, oh, there's a different type. Okay. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Throw it on there. Yeah. That sounds great. Like, oh, and and this one oh, what are you? You're an ace?
Speaker 1:Great. Sounds lovely. What does that mean? You don't wanna fuck anybody? Weird, but alright.
Speaker 1:Do know what I mean? Like, we're like, that's great. Who knew?
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And actually, we all knew because we've all known an asexual person throughout our life.
Speaker 2:A 100%.
Speaker 1:We all have that aunt who's like, no. Do you know what I mean? Who's not fucking anybody because she ain't got time
Speaker 2:for that. And it's also it's also, I guess this is going off topic again, but back to me being a slut. It's like Or I even went through a time where I considered the fact that I was asexual simply because the and it it's changed in the past decade, which is like there was such a focus on penetrative anal sex within the gay man community. And and like I say I'm a wretched slut, but like that's not my thing. I thought because I did I wasn't like I I was like, I'm kinda not a top or a bottom.
Speaker 1:Because you weren't like, put it in my ass or I wanna put it in
Speaker 2:your ass. Yeah. And so, like, there was a time where I was like, I may I might be asexual because I don't want these things, but I'm so grateful for the Name names. The expanse. I'm so grateful for the expanse in the conversation around sexuality for and that that it is not even is not specifically to the queer and gay man community, but it is like sex can be whatever you want it to be as long as it's safe and consensual and your opinions and your desires are valid.
Speaker 2:Period.
Speaker 1:Yeah. This is a feminism thing. Right? When like, I listen. If your idea of being the best woman you wanna be is spitting out babies on the homestead as a trad wife, do it, girl.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. Like, I think it's a very similar thing where I'm like, you know, I view feminism the same way, where however you want a woman, I want you to have the ability to woman that way.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Right? And and I really feel like it's a similar sort of judgy thing. You know, there are terfs who are like, oh, oh, you you just wanna stay home and take care of a man? So what the fuck? So what?
Speaker 1:If she wants to do that, let her do that. Let's just make sure she understands that if she doesn't wanna do that, she doesn't have to do that. And fortunately, now she can get a credit card, which she couldn't do in, you know, 1972.
Speaker 2:Speaking of the word TERF, I saw on TikTok this video of this person. They're like, TERF is not the right term, Which I don't if you don't know, TERF stands for trans exclusionary radical feminist. And they're like, I'm coming up with a new term. It's fart.
Speaker 1:I've seen that and I hated it when I saw it.
Speaker 2:You hated it? I didn't Feminist appropriating radical transphobes.
Speaker 1:I did an interview with a trans woman on the Loose in the Bible Belt podcast years ago, and she said that. And I was just like, listen. I don't think that that's the way to progress. It took me a minute to understand the difference between femininity and gender. And and, like, this idea that, like, as a as a woman, there are very few spaces where I have a lot of girlfriend ex girlfriends partners in my life who were, like, the victim of assault and that sort of a thing.
Speaker 1:Right? And there was a moment where I really struggled with understanding how we keep those women safe if a dick is triggering. It it you like like, there are things to unpack that go deeper than just like you know, I I I did struggle for a long time with someone who comes out, you know and I'm sorry it takes a trans woman to be 55 to come out because of the climate we live in. But there was a period in my life where I was like, right. But you did just succeed and get this pension you have by being a white male.
Speaker 1:And that was the only way you were gonna get hired for that job you had that now bought your house. And now I'm excited that you are get to live your truth as a woman, but let's not negate there was a privilege that you got. Right? And it's a little turf y. It's a little like like that line, it took me a long time to, like, really and I'm still, like, learning and figuring it out.
Speaker 1:Right? Like, I I am of the mentality that you are allowed to do whatever you want to to your body. It's none of my business. And how you feel good in your own body is up to you. And that goes from Botox to teeth to gender you wanna do for you, I think, is none of my fucking business.
Speaker 1:Right? But the I could understand, and it took a lot of, like, well, quite frankly, working with trans people and understanding the journey. You know? And I think that because we live in such a time Incendiary. Yeah.
Speaker 1:When where nuance is not really encouraged and we're not getting to mine out these issues and feelings as identities are are I don't wanna say surfacing because trans people have always been here, will always be here. But the more these things come into our awareness and we start talking to our children about, hey. There is actually more ways to human, and, like, let's really talk about that. I think we're doing a disservice by not being able to have actual conversations about, okay, but, like, what have the lived experiences been? How many women didn't get a job that a white man got who then, you know, at 50 came out of the closet as a trans person.
Speaker 1:And I and and I think that's a fair question. It doesn't make anybody a bad person, but I think it's a fair question.
Speaker 2:It's it's about privilege and the privilege that has been awarded to you, and then using that privilege to enrich yourself while leaving everyone else behind. I understand the the idea that like people who transition later in life, especially trans women have lived their life as a man and experienced that privilege. But I'm not a trans person. But my experience in my life, and obviously it's not a trans experience, but it is someone who has experienced gender and the way I experience my gender and the way the world is telling me to experience my gender. And I think it has probably has correlation with the trans experience, which is like, I I've had privilege through my life as a white man obviously, but that privilege was kind of forced upon me a little in the fact that like, when I was young, was very effeminate.
Speaker 2:I was I was bullied. I was called a girl.
Speaker 1:I was
Speaker 2:all of those things. And then I was bullied into being pushed into that privilege to an extent.
Speaker 1:Say more.
Speaker 2:I was bullied and had to change who I was in order to fit into the world. And me changing who I was to fit into the world is what gave me that privilege as a man.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. Mhmm. You know
Speaker 2:what I mean? Yeah. If I wasn't bullied, I probably would have I look back at my life and I'm just like, as at where I sit on the masc femme scale or the spectrum, I don't know if it is authentic because of my experiences in my life.
Speaker 1:Do you think you'd be more feminine? Definitely. Really?
Speaker 2:Yeah. I feel like I was I mean, as I grew up in my life, I was bullied for being feminine and then I every probably from the time I was 11 to the time I came out at 21, 50% of my brain was living my life and the other 50% of my brain was trying to not appear effeminate or gay.
Speaker 1:Right. I think that's a pretty standard.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And I so as much as trans people before their transition live in the the privilege of being a man, I don't think it is the full privilege that a heterosexual cis gender man has.
Speaker 1:No. No. No. No. And I don't think it is either.
Speaker 1:I don't. I think I think it's just a specifically about being able to be employed in a certain way. Or in like, I think it for me, it's more about how you were less likely to be homeless or or less likely feel like not that it's not a burden, because I do believe it is a burden. But I think that as a woman who knows that, like, we're literally we still haven't had a woman president yet. Right?
Speaker 1:Like, you go through life with so many or, you know, the way everyone's like, wow, a woman's sports reporter.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:This is real still. And so I think that in that cross section of where gender oneself and independence and all of that. I think that's more of it for me than anything else. And not to negate that it's a difficult experience. Obviously, I was a tomboy, as they call it.
Speaker 1:Right? And I most certainly went through you know, I had a girlfriend in high school. And then after her, I was like, oh, nope. It was just her. And then I went into a sorority.
Speaker 1:And then I, you know, put on I had sequin gowns. Like, I had all the things. Right? And, no, I was hot. Like, there's no I was a hot southern blonde who, like, played sports.
Speaker 1:I was ripped. Like, it was great. But I didn't you know, once I left home, once I left moving out of Shreveport, and even just moving to a smaller town far away, all of that shed away. And I went back to tomboy, quite frankly. I mean, I always was.
Speaker 1:Like, I just definitely in the same way where you're like, you had to man up, I had to feminine up.
Speaker 2:Totally.
Speaker 1:For sure, to be able to succeed in Southern culture.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Be a skinny white woman with highlights and eyebrows done, And, you know You kept the highlights. I did keep the highlights. I did I I have I have. And there and that's very much part of my identity. You know?
Speaker 1:People sometimes I'll, like, have makeup on, people are like, oh, she got makeup. I was like, bitch, I was raised a southern woman. Right. Like, of course, have on makeup.
Speaker 2:You know what? I love when people are like, oh my god. You know things about sports? I'm like, yeah. My dad was straight.
Speaker 2:So
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I picked up a few things. Yeah. Sure you like, subscribe, listen, tell a friend. Do me a favor. When we go through when I go through my life, a lot of people are like, wow.
Speaker 1:I'm really enjoying that podcast. And if you are one of those people, do me a favor and send it to a friend today. Yeah. Just be like, hey. You might like this.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Post on your Instagram story. Just spread the word a
Speaker 1:little bit. Yeah. That's really that's how community grows. A big
Speaker 2:thank you to our producer Chad Rossi in the Provincetown Recording Studio.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And we love you. Yeah. We love you so much. Queerly.
Speaker 1:Bye. Queer as Ben.