Pete Wright:
Welcome to How to Split a Toaster, a divorce podcast about saving your relationships from TruStory FM. And today, we're doing some actual relationship saving.
Seth Nelson:
Welcome to the show everyone. I'm Seth Nelson with my good friend, Pete Wright, and we're going to talk about a bunch of relationships that may be in your life for a short period of time or a very long period of time, depending on how things go in that relationship.
Pete Wright:
It's all about these relationships, Seth. And that's why we started the show, we had this brainstorm is going to be a great title, and we haven't talked about the breadth of those relationships, but I think it might be a good segue. You had some interest in doing just a little bit of follow-up from last week's show. Let's start by talking about the relationship that is central to this entire experience. And that is the one with your soon-to-be former spouse.
Seth Nelson:
Well, I was actually thinking after the show like, oh, I should've said that or there was a good point I wanted to make, which is like I told you in a previous show, I hate it when I have those thoughts walking back from the courthouse after the hearing, like I should have said that in court, that's never what you want to do, but I always played over my head. So it's a little frustrating, but I think it makes me a better lawyer at the end of the day. So two little points from last week show about making sure you're doing everything you can to work on your marriage before you decide to go through a dissolution. One is, it takes two. We really talked a lot last week about making sure you're doing everything you can do, everything you can do, everything you can do, but I just didn't want it to get lost that it takes two to make a relationship work.
Seth Nelson:
So one thing you might want to consider doing when you're working on your relationship is do not make demands, just make requests, like if you're asking your spouse to change a behavior or you're trying to change behaviors or how you guys interact in some way, shape or form, it's just a request. And it makes it very simple in the balancing act when you have so many requests that are just not being met and that outweighs all the positive stuff, that might be that kind of aha moment, like this isn't working. Now, some requests might just be deal breakers like no, I'm not doing that. And that's perfectly acceptable. Everyone gets to set their own boundaries. So just think that you're in it with somebody else.
Seth Nelson:
And also, I really wanted to end with this last week, I truly believe, and I've seen this time and time again, that the bravest thing people do is actually stand up for themselves and then move forward. And I am not advocating that you get a divorce, but I've seen people get stuck and when they finally get the courage to move forward, and then I see them years later, and I just think how brave is that to say, it's a scary process. There's a lot of unknowns, it's easier to stay where I am and not live my best life, but I'm going to jump off that diving board and I'm going to go into that deep end, but at the end of it, even how awful it might be going through it, there is something better after you get through this process and even standing up and saying, "No, I'm not going to take this anymore. I'm going to focus on myself." So I just wanted to quickly put an exclamation point on that and recap the last week. And sorry, I didn't do it then with everyone.
Pete Wright:
No, no, no. I think that's a great. Actually, I think a great way to start this conversation, and I know we're talking in terms of former spouses, but I feel like I mean it when I say saving your relationships, that you never know where your former spouse is going to fit into your life if you don't do the work to stand up, move on, but in some ways, you recognize that you're going to be moving on with this person just in a new capacity, right? I mean, you're a terrific example.
Seth Nelson:
Well, thank you. I mean, my former spouse and I, we've talked about getting along, I don't say the word ex because I feel it's derogatory. And I think that former spouse relationship changes over time and it also depends how much you still have in common. If you don't have children together, if you're not in business together, and after you go through a divorce, it's probably pretty quickly that you guys are just going to not be in each other's lives. Now, if you're in the same community, if you're in the same business or if you have the same group of friends, then you might see each other from time to time, but, and you'll have to navigate that issue, like, "Oh, this is the party we both used to go to." But if you don't have kids and it's not a very long-term marriage, usually people go back to doing what they're doing. And it's like, oh yeah, you kind of lose track of them. Of course, social media people start getting blocked and all of that.
Seth Nelson:
And then I have all those other divorces that start because someone's found an old girlfriend or boyfriend on Facebook and got reconnected. But when you're going through it in this relationship, you're going to have going forward depending on what you still have in common, but required or otherwise, children, you're obviously going to be dealing with that person for the rest of your life. Now, how often you deal with them gets dramatically less over time as children get older. When you're dealing with a four-year-old going back and forth, and if you're still in COVID and you're figuring out how to do a first grader on Zoom for school if they're locked down and they're not going to brick and mortar school, that's a lot more interaction organizing it. It gets less and less when the kids get older and they're 16 and if they get a car.
Pete Wright:
Sure, kids are vapor, they're gone. Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
Right. When they were in college, your interaction is even less with your former spouse. So the younger they are, the more transitions back and forth between the homes, the more figuring out the holidays, you got to clear all that stuff. It's much more in your face than it is when they're 30, they're just hoping you're going to get invited to the wedding and not have to pay for them.
Pete Wright:
That's good. I can see where your head is right now. That's fine. That's fine, I guess.
Seth Nelson:
My kid is 16. I got, [inaudible 00:06:40].
Pete Wright:
Yeah, you got a little time. Well, and I think that goes to you to what we're talking about, it's just making space both in your head and your heart to show up to that relationship wherever that may be.
Seth Nelson:
Exactly, and have really low expectation. We all get upset when expectations aren't met, whether it's the restaurant you went to, the food wasn't doing, it was bad service, whether you're at a stoplight, the light turns green, the car in front of you doesn't go, in whatever your expectation is, you get upset, you get frustrated, you get annoyed, you honk your horn, maybe you don't honk your horn. So lower your expectation. If your former spouse is a total pain and every time they deal with you, they're a total pain, you should just expect they're going to be a total pain. It's just going to be water off a duck's back. Anything they're going to say, I've heard it before, like, come up with some new material, man, and just move on. And don't let their behavior control how you respond. You have a choice on how you respond. And one way to do that is just lower your expectations.
Pete Wright:
Okay. All right. So now, let's run through a list of the common former spousal relationships and just looking up, I think what I'm looking for from you is maybe an exploration of best practices where you've seen these relationships really thrive or flourish, or maybe, I guess, if they really, really haven't, that would be okay too.
Seth Nelson:
Okay. So hit me with a relationship and we'll just go through it.
Pete Wright:
Well, okay. Let's start with the multiple former spouses. So either you are a first former spouse or you're one of many, or you have one of many.
Seth Nelson:
Okay. So you're going to have a different relationship potentially with each of those former spouses, but then those former spouses may or may not have relationships, which just complicates thing.
Pete Wright:
Does that make you just, maybe at some point, you should just think maybe I should just not get married?
Seth Nelson:
Leading cause of divorce is marriage. We've covered this, Pete, I mean. So the deal with this, it's all about interpersonal skills, right? So, some people might have different relationships with different former spouses, but those kids, if there were kids involved, then the kids might be like half siblings and the kids might have just step siblings that were step siblings and now you get divorced and they're not step siblings.
Pete Wright:
They're just suddenly nothing. There's no ex step sibling.
Seth Nelson:
There's no ex step sibling. No one ever says that's my ex step sibling. That just doesn't roll off the tongue, right? So for you, it's just managing how you want to be in those relationships, knowing that there are also other things that happen, because maybe for a long time, this was a step parent to a child and now you get divorced, and then, okay, what do you do about this stepchild that's you're no longer a step parent to, right? That's another one.
Pete Wright:
So what do you do about that? Let's look at the kids.
Seth Nelson:
So that is totally based upon your relationship with that child and that child's relationship with you and then how that child navigates, whether parents want you to be involved or not. And under the law, no rights.
Pete Wright:
Okay.
Seth Nelson:
I was married, my former spouse had a child previously. That was my stepdaughter. We get divorced, I have no rights to her.
Pete Wright:
And she has no rights or expectations to you either. It's not like she's going to come to you and say-
Seth Nelson:
Well, she might have expectations, but maybe no rights.
Pete Wright:
But no rights. You're not responsible for her pay for college, that kind of thing.
Seth Nelson:
Exactly. So, actually, people will ask me, "Well, Seth, how many children do you have?" Do you think that would be an easy question for me to answer?
Pete Wright:
It's really tricky.
Seth Nelson:
It is for me, because I say it this way, I have four children in my heart, one biological, one former step, and my girlfriend has two children. So I love four kids. I only have to pay for half a college for one, and thankful to all humanity, my DNA is only passed onto one, right?
Pete Wright:
That's a long answer, but it takes me back. I went to high school with a woman who said, who referred to her mom as her egg mom, because she has an egg mom and she has a mom, and she was not close to her egg mom. But her stepmom, she refers to as her mom.
Seth Nelson:
And everybody has these different names. For example, my son has a stepfather and when we're out and about, he says, Oh, that's my stepdad. In our family, especially when he was younger now, when he was younger, not so much. Now, we just call him Steve, because that's his name, but we called him bonus dad.
Pete Wright:
Bonus dad?
Seth Nelson:
Yeah. He was the icing on the cake. He was the cherry on top.
Pete Wright:
Wow!
Seth Nelson:
That's what we would call him.
Pete Wright:
That's better. That's better than Steve, the extra dad.
Seth Nelson:
Steve, I'm just hanging around here.
Pete Wright:
Steve, the appendix dad.
Seth Nelson:
Right. Oh, man, I'm getting in trouble now. Stop Pete.
Pete Wright:
Steve, if you're listening, do we say this with love, because we know you know how to take it? How about that?
Seth Nelson:
Well, Steve actually is the bonus dad because he and my former spouse started a business called Whatever Pops and it's gourmet, popsicles, acai bowls, and amazing grilled cheese sandwiches. It's so good. So, that's definitely the bonus there.
Pete Wright:
Oh, such a bonus dad Steve.
Seth Nelson:
So Steve, if you think about this, Steve is now the stepfather to my former stepdaughter.
Pete Wright:
The stepfather to your former stepdaughter, she's just changed. She looks like [crosstalk 00:12:41] changed your dad.
Seth Nelson:
She upgraded. She upgraded. No, but, and look, my former stepdaughter, it listens to this podcast. So I know she's going to be hearing all this, I hope she's not cringing. And she already knows what I'm about to say, but she's got me wrapped around her finger. If she needs anything, she doesn't ask, she's not greedy in any way, but I am pretty quick with the credit card.
Pete Wright:
Because now she gets popsicles and she used to just get what briefs, like that you got, this is payback.
Seth Nelson:
She's older now, she's graduating college. She's doing her thing. She's amazing.
Pete Wright:
That's fantastic.
Seth Nelson:
But our relationship, I didn't see her for many years, not because of anything was wrong, but she was living her life, going back and forth. And I would see her at some events, but my son and I love to cook us. So sometimes we'll be cooking and it will be a recipe that she gave Kai and we'll call her up and it's just great. And when she's in town, I get to see her from time to time. And she's living her life like any-
Pete Wright:
Like any young adult. Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
Young adult should be doing. So, but that's just. Now, there's other friends of mine that have step kids that get divorced, never see them again.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
They weren't that close with them, the relationship with the former spouse was terrible. It just doesn't work.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. Okay. What about when... Okay, the whole relationship with grandparents, how do you manage and save relationship with grandparents through parents, stepparents and kids?
Seth Nelson:
My parents have never told me this. So this is an assumption that I'm making, I'm pretty solid on this though. I think they were just devastated when I was getting a divorce. They love to this day, my former spouse. I think it was hard for them, especially if they're talking to their peer group in those that peer group has adult children. If they're not going through a divorce, they're like, "What do you mean you don't get to see Kai on Hanukkah?" Well, he might be at his moms, right?
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
So different jurisdictions have different laws on this, but it's pretty tough around the country for grandparents to have rights to children. And if they do have rights, unfortunately, it means something's really going poorly with the child of that life, like there's dependency issues, there's drug addiction issues, and then the grandparents step in. That's where there's some level of, you might be able to get rights, not through divorce, but through what's called dependency.
Pete Wright:
And those rights are like parental rights, right? They're taking care of the kids.
Seth Nelson:
Exactly. But it's very limited in at least in Florida on grandparent rights.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. There's no custody. There's no timeshare with grandma and grandpa.
Seth Nelson:
Nothing. Nothing.
Pete Wright:
Okay.
Seth Nelson:
Which think about like, okay, now that my child's with me and I'm sure my parents would, they know this, but they also understand it. I was very protective of my time with Kai, because if I only have them every other weekend and all the other grandkids are going over to my parents for a sleepover, it's not that I didn't want him to go and have fun with his cousins, but that was just time I was going to miss.
Pete Wright:
Sure.
Seth Nelson:
And I'm already missing every other weekend. So it was really hard for me as my girlfriend would say, the helicopter parent who still is yet to cut the umbilical cord.
Pete Wright:
A lot of metaphor in there. It all ends in kind of gross.
Seth Nelson:
I know it [crosstalk 00:16:20] around. So it's just hard. And I think grandparents need to board be helpful to their children to understand that. My parents were absolutely wonderful, never pressured me to do any of that. They got it, but I know that they've missed out and I do feel badly about that situation that they had no control over. They're just the grandparents who want to see the kid.
Pete Wright:
Right. Right. There's a common trope in my favorite pastime movies and television, when you talk about divorce, you talked about who gets the friends and this is one, we've talked about families on the show before in some capacity, but I don't think we've ever really waded into the waters of social groups.
Seth Nelson:
I think in my experiences, in going through a divorce, you really find out who your true friends are.
Pete Wright:
What does that look like?
Seth Nelson:
If they're there to support you and this is the battle with every friend. And I've had this conversation with friends of mine where they've asked me about, oh, what do you think about my girlfriend, I'm thinking about marrying her? And I'm like, do you want the supportive answer that I'm supposed to give if she makes you happy and you think it's great? Yeah. Or do you want to know what I really think? Which might be the supportive answer. And they're like, "I want what you really think." And I'm like, "Run. She's not the one for you, run." Now, if you get married to her, I'm just telling you, I hope it works out, but from what I see in the information I have, you need to run. This is not going to end well. So do they support you? And you don't want the ones just to bash him or bash her and say, she's terrible, terrible, terrible. It's like, you want a friend that's going to be, how can we get through this? How can I help you get through that?
Pete Wright:
Because that's the perennial struggle, right? If you're the friend of the person marrying somebody who is just obviously not a great fit, are you being a good friend by saying it or not?
Seth Nelson:
I come down on, tell them what you really think, because they asked. And there's like cards now that you can get for getting divorced. Congratulations, we never really liked it.
Pete Wright:
I told you so.
Seth Nelson:
Right. There's no, I told you so, because they never tell you.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, right. Right.
Seth Nelson:
And I'm not saying that it's the bad person, it's just not the right fit. But I think that's happens when you are going through a divorce that finding your true friends that are going to support you. That doesn't mean they're going to bash them all the time. That doesn't mean they're going to agree with you all the time. That doesn't mean they're going to let you always talk about their divorce to you or your divorce to them. You still have to ask them how their day is and what's going on in their life, because you don't want to be that friend who was like, oh my God, we're going to hear about the divorce the whole time, we're just trying to have girls night, right? Now, we're all here to support you.
Pete Wright:
There's time to grieve in a social group. There's always time to grieve.
Seth Nelson:
So I think having friends like that are really important. And I will also tell you, like I say over and over again, see a counselor, because that is someone whose only interest is what is in your best interest in helping you get there. Everybody else has interest, whether it's a bias interest, they don't even know about it. But every relationship everyone has an interest in, but in a counseling setting, that person is there for you and only you.
Pete Wright:
Right. Their interest is you.
Seth Nelson:
Right.
Pete Wright:
All right.
Seth Nelson:
What other relationships can we tackle when you get divorced?
Pete Wright:
Well, that's a great question. Are there other relationships, like who gets the hairdresser? Who gets the-
Seth Nelson:
See, is that like a joke about my bald head? Is that what you were doing there? It was so subtle.
Pete Wright:
It's actually not a joke. I just didn't know how far a field you wanted to go, but hairdresser happens to be one that I have personal experience with, where there was a contested hairdresser. Can we say that?
Seth Nelson:
Don't schedule it at the same time and now you can no longer confide in that hairdresser. I mean, that's the real problem.
Pete Wright:
Look, yeah. Because two, maybe it was last week, you actually instructed us on the ways of conflicting out an attorney, right? And that it turns out is the thing that I have seen many times since we talked about that. It's like, now all I see are Volkswagens. That kind of an experience. Well, this whole experience with conflicting you this couple, in fact, they were trying to conflict out the hairdresser like scheduling so many appointments that the other one couldn't get in, like it was just they were really trying to make some, because they both wanted the hairdresser. They needed that hairdresser.
Seth Nelson:
They need a mediator, which we'll have on later, another show about how to-
Pete Wright:
I'm going to bring up the hairdresser.
Seth Nelson:
How to do a time sharing schedule with a hairdresser.
Pete Wright:
How to split a hairdresser.
Seth Nelson:
So here's an interesting relationship that people might not think of if you have kids, step kids, have a child. I marry someone that has a child. They're now step siblings. And now we split up.
Pete Wright:
They were step siblings, now they are former steps.
Seth Nelson:
Right, which we joke about the term. No one ever says that, it gets confusing for them, but it's all about the relationship that they had. And now with social media, it happens all the time. And I know kids that still will play Xbox with their former step sibling, because they can do that, right? Now, the parent might just cut them off. Well, that's not necessarily best for the kids. If the kids were getting along, what does it matter? Are they in the same soccer team? Do they go to the same tournaments? Do they go into the same school? How does that happen? So just focus on that because that's really putting them first, not you first.
Pete Wright:
Well, and that's kind of the lesson I'm getting from this entire assessment of relationships is that there are very few legal relationships, legally defined relationships after a divorce, but there are a whole bunch of interpersonal relationships and those can be as warm as you want them.
Seth Nelson:
Right. And a lot of that has to deal with how is the relationship when things were going well? And then how did you handle it when that relationship that connected everyone, yours and your spouses, that connected everyone when that starts going South, how do you handle that to maintain these other relationships? And if those are important to you, it's a little hard to be really nice and try to be nice to a kid when that kid is saying, "But you treated my mom like crap."
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
So you have to think about that even when you're scared about where are you going to live and how much money you're going to have and dividing your assets, and I got to get back in the workforce or, and I got to deal with my parents who really love my former spouse or soon-to-be. You've got a lot of this going on and you're just looking to manage those relationships, which is what we're trying to just help you do and take it one conversation at a time, one day at a time. We're not trying to overload you here, but when you're dealing with those people and do things, if you're interested in keeping a positive relationship, you can do things that you would do, whether you're married to their former son or not.
Seth Nelson:
If you're one that usually would be the one to send the birthday card, send the birthday card. If you know that your former spouse is not going to have your child, send a birthday card to grandpa and grandma, even though it's his parents, send the birthday card, have the child do it. That's good for your kid. And it just gets you points. You can always use point.
Pete Wright:
You can always use points. Think about your clients, you ever have any common regrets that you recall, people who feel like they mishandled these relationships and wish they'd done something differently?
Seth Nelson:
The biggest regret, and this is going to go back to our conversation from last week, the biggest regret that I hear from people is they didn't do it sooner, they didn't get a divorce sooner. They held on too long, which is sad to say. Now, I'm not trying to encourage anyone, but that's the biggest regret that I get. I don't hear a lot about these other relationships and intuitively, they're just different. The stepparent, no matter how involved you are and how much that child might love you and how much you love that child, you're not the parent. And that is just a difference. And that goes for step grandparents to a child will be more upset, usually, if a grandparent passes, then they step grandparent, even though that child knows no difference all along the way.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, sure.
Seth Nelson:
It's just the psychology of it.
Pete Wright:
Let me define a term.
Seth Nelson:
So, we're in Black's Law Dictionary and we're talking about relationships. This definition in the law is going to sound exactly like it is in English, but there're some things that you should just know about this relationship. The term for today is stepchild, the child of one spouse by previous relationship. A stepchild is generally not entitled to the same legal rights as a natural or adopted child. A stepchild is not entitled to any intestate rights to a share of a step parents estate. English, what does that mean? So, the first part's easy, stepchild is a child from your spouse's previous relationship. We all know that. The next part was generally not entitled to the same legal rights as a natural or adopted child and then it points to one of those rights. So intestate rights is when someone passes away and they don't have a will. Every state has a statute that says where that person's belongings go if they die and they don't have a will.
Seth Nelson:
The Great State of Florida, if you're living in Florida and you don't have a will, the Great State of Florida has a will for you, it's in the statute, how your stuff gets divided. A stepchild is not in that statute. It will go to your children, there's parts that will go to your spouse, there's dealing with your house and how that gets all laid out. If it's only in your name and not in your spouse, go meet with an estate and trust board to talk about these things. But when you're getting married to someone with a former as a child, and that child's going to come your stepchild, that's a good time to redo your wills and decide whether you want to include that child in your will or not. It's a good time to look at your what's called an estate plan.
Pete Wright:
And there's just so many questions about those like Knives Out, those murder, like family murder things.
Seth Nelson:
Great movie.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
Love that one. Exactly, who gets to inherit if you don't have a will? That when they had a will it might've been changed and all that.
Pete Wright:
Right. Well, yeah. Because there was... All right, Seth, working with your lawyer. I know we've spent a lot of time in our first half of our show. Now, we're going to dig into the major second half, which is your attorney's role in all of these relationships. Where would you like to begin?
Seth Nelson:
There's nothing for your divorce lawyer to do.
Pete Wright:
Ah, Seth.
Seth Nelson:
Look at all the money I just saved, people calling their lawyers to talk about what do I do with this stepchild? Nothing.
Pete Wright:
Nothing, I don't do anything.
Seth Nelson:
Now, it's sad, because they'll want to be involved if they're asking if they want to be involved, right? But this is where you really should be talking to a different lawyer, it's called an estate and trust lawyer. That lawyer handles setting up your will. There's something called a healthcare surrogate who makes your medical decisions if you're unable to. Durable power of attorney, who handles your money if you are unable to make those decisions for yourself? Something called a Pre-Need Guardianship, kind of saying, hey, this is who I'd like to be the guardian, someone needs to be there. There's all these sort of living will, you've heard that term, there's all these sort of who pulls the plug, right? And in my family, we're a bit klutzy. We like to say who's going to trip over the court.
Pete Wright:
Who's is going to trip over the court.
Seth Nelson:
But when you get married and then when you get divorced, you should really look at your wills and your estate plan. You should look at all of your life insurance to see who's still the beneficiary, because in some jurisdictions, you might say, I have no legal obligation to have my life insurance as a beneficiary of my former spouse. But if you don't change your beneficiary form on your life insurance, your former spouse might be in for a payday.
Pete Wright:
Wow.
Seth Nelson:
So it's really a good idea. As exhausting as it is, and as being tired with the legal process and talking to lawyers, you're going to have all your financial information right there. It's gotten together through everything we've done in the divorce process. It is the perfect time to go see a lawyer about an estate plan. It's the perfect time to go see a financial planner, because they lawyer can tell you, this is what you'll get a divorce. A Lawyer should not be advising you on what this will do for you down the road on what percentage of putting to what stocks, or it's a perfect time to go see your accountant. You have it all laid out and what are the tax implications? So it's all there. You'll be exhausted. You're not going to want to do any of this. Take them one at a time. It usually will not take more than a couple hours to do a basic estate plan with an attorney that knows what they're doing. And you'll have all the information. Getting the information together is the hardest part. And it will all be there for you.
Pete Wright:
Sure.
Seth Nelson:
So that would be my advice on talking with your lawyer. Not much talk about with your divorce lawyer, but there's other people out there that I would encourage you to seek their advice and counsel.
Pete Wright:
Well, look at all the time we saved everybody on this very podcast. Seth Nelson, well done.
Seth Nelson:
Keeping it short, as I like to say in court, succinct and persuasive, that's what we're trying to be. You don't have to drone on and on and on.
Pete Wright:
Aspire to greatness. Thank you everybody for downloading and listening to this show. We hope we've given you some guidance here today. It's not a terribly legal-oriented show, but I think there's a lot to sort through and what could be muddy post-divorce relationships. We appreciate you downloading, listening to this show. If you haven't yet, definitely check out your podcast app directory. If it's a directory that takes reviews, we would love to see your review for our podcast. If that's Apple Podcasts, scroll down to the bottom, you can say, leave a review. We appreciate all those five-star reviews and nice comments, we'd like to read every single one of them. Thank you everybody for downloading, listening to this show. On behalf of Seth Nelson, we'll catch you next week right here on How to Split a Toaster, a divorce podcast about saving your relationships.
Speaker 3:
Seth Nelson is an attorney with Nelson Koster Family Law and Mediation, with offices in Tampa, Florida. While we may be discussing family law topics, How to Split a Toaster is not intended to nor is it providing legal advice. Every situation is different. If you have specific questions regarding your situation, please seek your own legal counsel with an attorney licensed to practice law in your jurisdiction. Pete Wright is not an attorney or employee of Nelson Koster. Seth Nelson is licensed to practice law in Florida.
This transcript was exported on Dec 16, 2020 - view latest version here.
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