Drifting away from faith – Hebrews E3

Are we in danger of drifting away from the faith? Can you lose your salvation?
 
In this episode, we discuss the warnings peppered throughout the Letter to the Hebrews: don’t drift away from the faith; don’t harden your hearts; it’s necessary to grow in spiritual maturity and discernment; don’t grow weary! 

We consider the author’s intentions as we talk about the importance of community in being active in our faith and keeping each other on track. We reflect on the need to approach church with soft and open hearts. Moving on to chapter 6, we look at the transition we’re being encouraged to make from basic teachings to deeper understanding, and grapple with the question of whether we can lose our salvation.

Finally, dipping into chapter 12, we explore the contrast between the Mosaic covenant made at Mount Sinai, where the people couldn’t approach God but had to stand at a safe distance, and the new covenant in Jesus which enables believers to approach God and worship joyfully in his presence.

Timestamps

• (00:00) - Intro
• (01:40) - The warnings in Hebrews
• (02:20) - The warning against drifting away from the faith
• (05:30) - Community and active faith
• (12:10) - Why does the author give warnings?
• (14:30) - The warning against hardening your heart
• (16:45) - Having a soft heart
• (19:45) - The deceitfulness of sin
• (22:29) - Moving towards spiritual maturity
• (27:14) - Knowing Christ
• (29:29) - Can someone lose their salvation? Hebrews 6
• (40:14) - Going back to darkness after being in the light: Hebrews 12

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Creators & Guests

Host

Esther King

Esther is part of Bible Society's Communications team.

Host

Mark Woods

Mark is a Baptist minister and sometime journalist, who now heads up Bible Society's comms team.

Host

Noël Amos

Noël is the editor of Rooted, Bible Society's devotional journal.

What is The Rooted Podcast?

Listen to The Rooted Podcast for in-depth conversations about the Bible and how we can apply it to our lives. Join the team behind Rooted, Bible Society's devotional journal, as we dig deeper into a theme or book of the Bible in each series and explore its message for us today.

(00:01.898)
The overall thing is don't turn your back on something beautiful to go back to something terrifying. That's where the body of Christ is so important because it's something that you do not on your own. I think it's so much easier to sort of drift when you're not with other people. So I don't see it as a negative thing to be challenged and I hope that I would have the courage to lovingly reach out to someone. Something about coming to church in a receptive frame of mind isn't there?

But the whole point is that there are things I'm sure I've heard 40 or 50 times that I still haven't implemented into my life. I probably need to hear them again. But I think that's another thing of having a soft heart, saying I've heard this before, but I can hear it again. There's always something for me to learn. You're listening to the Rooted Podcast from Bible Society. In each series, we take a closer look at a theme or book of the Bible and explore its relevance in our lives today. This is our series on Hebrews.

Welcome back to The Rooted Podcast. I'm Noelle and I'm here with Mark and Esther and we're back for the third episode of Hebrew series. If you didn't know already, the Rooted Journal on Hebrews is out. So subscribers are currently reading all about Hebrews. That's why we're making this series. And if you want to get more involved in Rooted, you can sign up to receive the journal. It's a subscription. Get it every other month.

and you'll be supporting Bible projects around the world and also learning more about the Bible. So if you're more interested in that, can go check that out at biblesociety.org.uk forward slash rooted. So we're going to get into this episode. We wanted to take some time to talk a bit about this theme that you see throughout the book of Hebrews, which is sort of the theme of not falling away from the faith or not losing salvation. So sort of scattered throughout the book are these sort of warnings that the author gives to his readers.

There's one right at the beginning of chapter two, which we sort of mentioned in the last episode. We're also going to look at one in chapter three. There's some in chapters five and six. And then if we can as well, something really interesting to do with this in chapter 12. we're going to do our best to work through all of those, but we'll begin in chapter two. So right at the start of chapter two, the first four verses of chapter two is sort of the first warning that we see the author give.

(02:26.646)
about not drifting away from the faith. And I thought we could just start there talking about that. Obviously, there's a bit of like a twofold thing here where we can read this today and we can think that, you know, people today lose their faith. But it also probably meant something very different to the people that the writer was writing to at the time. So maybe we can touch on a bit of that. But just to begin, I wonder if we can just touch on the term that the author uses, which is

to drift away from the faith, which I think is interesting because he doesn't just say lose your salvation or stop following Jesus or anything like that, but specifically there's this idea of sort of slowly drifting. Well, I think it's very relatable. I think we probably all experienced, you know, not just in terms of faith, but something that we've been very committed to, maybe exercise or whatever.

We've been really good at sticking to it for a while and then slowly we've maybe drifted away from that initial commitment. So I really feel sort of the relatability of this warning from the author. And I feel it's quite gentle and compassionate. And he's saying, you know, I suppose when you initially start drifting, it's not very noticeable. You know, it might be a very small and incremental thing, but he's saying it's

Don't do it. Don't allow yourself to drift away. I feel like he so cares about this audience and he's saying don't even drift. I thought it was a really interesting expression actually drifting away because it's a nautical expression, isn't it? And the idea is that a boat is supposed to be either under control, so you're steering it with the sails and the rudder and what have you, or it's tied up to an anchor.

point, know, it's tied up to a buoy or a quayside. So if the boat is not under control, it's just drifting and it's at the mercy of the winds and the tides or whatever. And yeah, I mean, there are people like that, aren't there? And I think it's a, is it a particularly modern temptation? I don't know if it is really, but I think we probably all know people who are just like that in their personal lives. They don't have goals, they don't have ambitions.

(04:47.054)
And not everybody has to be ambitious, obviously, but you do need something to keep you, you know, a reason to get up in the morning, basically. And some people just don't have that and drifting is a frickely bad way to live. So there's that and there's the other thing, which is about having an anchor point. You know, if you're not under control, that's one thing, but if you, yeah, I've spent some time in the water and, you know, I know if you tie up at night,

and you don't secure the boat, then you might just drift and you wake up in the morning and you are miles away from where you ought to be. You might not know where you are. You need something to keep you attached, a strong point which moors you to where you need to be. I think the point of the reference here is that that is the gospel, that is the church community, that is the people who keep you grounded.

the people who get you where you need to be. Yeah, I think that's good. It just got me thinking about sort of how it can be easy to fall into being passive in Christianity. So you don't really do much and maybe you go to church every so often, but really Christianity has to be very active. It has to be something that you're constantly inspired in and thinking about. And I think that's where the body of Christ is so important because it's something that you do not

by your own, on your own. I think it's so much easier to sort of drift when you're not with other people, like you've said, who are sort of anchoring you. yeah, so just made me think that so much of Christianity has to be something that I'm constantly doing. I'm reading the Word and I'm praying and I'm actively doing things within my faith so that I don't drift away. Yeah, and it's not just that sense of effort, although, you know, it's warranted because, you know, chapter one,

coming just before this, it's talked about Jesus's divinity, how amazing He is, what He's done for us. And there's a therefore in my translation of this, right at the beginning of this passage, therefore we must pay closer attention to what we've learned, not drifting away. Basically, it's like a, it's kind of saying, look, in response to Jesus, how could we just sort of drift and be like, meh? You know, it's more like that's not a...

(07:12.48)
It's not the right kind of response. And he does get a bit more direct later in those first four verses. says, he's basically saying like the message of the angels has been proved reliable. We've got all this evidence of who Jesus is. So if we neglect that, how shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation? So there's this word of escape and it gets this sense of like, are you drifting into a trap?

maybe or? I think that's really interesting and that just leads on to something I was going to say. I've been reading Tom Wright's commentary on Hebrews and I think one of the things that he brings out is exactly what the writer is talking about in a context like this. So, you know, my translation says, how should we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? I think that makes us ask questions about whether

You know, somebody can lose their salvation. Is that what it's talking about in some sort of eternal sense? You know, who am I to say that Tom Wright is right? But you know, I don't know enough really. you know, to me, the approach that he takes really rings true because Tom Wright's point is more, I think it's a psychological insight really, more than a sort of existential theological

judgment, you know, we can drift away when we leave the congregation behind, when we leave our practices of spiritual discipline, of spiritual life, spiritual engagement. And that's what this means, I think. mean, it's interesting to see how it goes on to be unpacked though, because I it's in Hebrews 3,

He does warn kind of against like falling, or maybe it's not Hebrew, it could be later. But he kind of warns again, he's saying to them, don't fall into sort of the ritualism and like doing what you did in the past and kind of trusting in that for your salvation, your own kind of good works and sense of righteousness. It's Jesus who's the source of your righteousness. So I don't know that it's completely.

(09:37.77)
all bound up in that idea of what we do as spiritual disciplines in community. But I do think you're getting at something there because community is a thread throughout all of these warnings. He tells them to encourage each other, exhort each other every day while it's still called today and there's a chance for people to listen and respond. So yeah, I see what you're saying. I think this goes back to what you were saying actually, Noah, as well.

about being a Christian, it's so much about a conscious decision, isn't it? Day by day and you've got to keep doing stuff. And if you don't keep on doing stuff, then you will become a drifter even in a congregation. And this is one of the points that Tom Wright makes, that there are people in a congregation who are happy to sort of go Sunday by Sunday, but they're happy to let other people do the work.

administration and turning up and doing things and the praying, the active listening, the participation. They drift even though they're there. Sometimes these drifters can become draggers and they don't want change. They aren't interested in progress or any new ideas or new thinking or new activity because they like things the way they are.

And he uses the example of a small child who is hanging onto his mother's pushchair and the mother's pushing along and it's hard, it's getting harder and suddenly she realizes that it's the fact that somebody's holding her back. And there are people in congregations who are just like that. And I think it's quite insightful to think of the drifters becoming drags.

I think you're right. So much of Christian life is about other people. It's about service. It's a huge part of Christian life. If we neglect it, you're almost missing sort of the point of being in a church community, of being a part. But it also makes me think, how do you get people out of that? Because if there are people just sitting in the congregation, who are that way?

(11:55.52)
In a way, they're not living in sort of the abundant life that Christ has for us. They're not living in the fullness of community. yeah, I don't know, how do you bring people out of a place like that and sort of inspire them into something greater? Well, I think that's something that the author of Hebrews is trying to do throughout this book. He's trying to say, look, are you a drifter? Are you hardening your heart? Are you only feasting on

baby food, spiritual baby food, instead of like the solid real thing that really is going to strengthen your faith. Are you growing weary in perseverance? And he's trying to say to them like, don't, you need to endure, you need to persevere. And I think sometimes people are never challenged on anything. We are very adverse to kind of, and we certainly don't like it when people do it to us.

And they say, look, it feels to me as though you're drifting. My heckles would go up immediately. I'd be like, what do mean? But it might be true. Well, yeah, I think the author of Hebrews says these warnings, some of them sound very stern, but he's giving people an opportunity to recognize that this is something that's going on in their heart and in their minds and that it's not the right response to Jesus. And they, know, what are they going to do about it?

Are they going to change or are they just going to drift away? I think you're talking about preaching really fiery sermons, aren't you? No, not necessarily. No, I'm really not though, because I think that's the problem, isn't it? If we say, well, we don't like being challenged and then we immediately leap to thinking, we're talking about fire and brimstone. No, we're talking about being able to speak into someone's life and say, are you on the right track?

How can I help you? How can I walk with you? How can I encourage you today? Because I really want the best for you. I want you to have that full abundant life that Noel talked about. If that is fire and brimstone, then we're sort of stuffed, aren't we? Because nobody can help us when we're drifting away and they can see it. You know, I want people to have permission to grab hold of me, to throw me a life belt when I'm drifting. So I don't see it as a negative thing to

(14:12.962)
be challenged and I hope that I would have the courage to lovingly reach out to someone. Yeah, that's interesting. It actually leads really well into chapter three, which we want to talk about next, which sort of talks about hardening your heart, which maybe this is a bit different. I do think this is a bit different when I'm about to say to what the author is saying, but it reminded me of when people come to us with correction in the church, the thing that I think you have to have is a soft heart.

You have to be able to say, okay, and be humble and listen and actually decide, I'm actually going to give this some thought and I'm actually going to hear it and accept it. And of course, there's so much that goes into that. Like who is the person speaking into your life? Do you actually have any sort of emotional or like relational equity with them? But yeah, I think that's a really good point. But yeah, here in chapter three, there's another warning that comes out.

And specifically the author, I believe this is a quote from Psalm 95. Did you guys find the same thing? Yes, Psalm 95. In which the author is talking about not hardening hearts. So it's sort of a carry on from, okay, don't drift away. And then if you sort of think, well, how does someone drift away? And we've sort of talked about that. But guess one way the author is saying, well, don't harden your hearts against what you've heard.

I mean, it starts, it? you he mentions Moses and then we're straight into kind of the history, like post-Exodus coming out of Egypt, they're in the wilderness and he's saying, look, the people in the wilderness who kept, you know, they said, we want to, yes, you're our God, we're your people. They said, we're going to obey your commandments, we're in this covenant with you. And then they kind of instantly broke them and they kept doing it.

It's this idea of like, they've heard his voice, they've been led by the presence of God in the wilderness and they still don't have this right response to God and they harden their hearts against him. They will say, why did you bring us out here to die? We were better off in Egypt. They kind of don't want the rest that God is offering them. They don't want the promised land that he says he's prepared for them. And so he's saying, don't be like,

(16:33.76)
Your ancestors, he's writing this to a Jewish audience, he's saying you've seen it before and you see it didn't lead to anything good. So don't be like them, don't harden your hearts. Something about coming to church with an inner receptive frame of mind, isn't there really? Not coming, assuming that you know everything or that you're coming with any kind of position of superiority or anything like that. You're just coming and

There is this saying that the ground is level at the foot of the cross, isn't there? every time you're walking through the doors of a church, you walk in as a sinner seeking forgiveness. I like what you said about the soft heart, I do. I think that's a really good way to think of it. Yeah. What you just said reminded me of something I said to a friend the other day. We were talking about preaching because we both preach sometimes at church. And sometimes what you'll hear people say after a sermon,

And I've said this, so I'm guilty, but you'll hear someone say, that was really good, but it's nothing that I haven't heard before. Or, that was really good, but it's not anything new. And it's like this light way of saying I didn't like it very much, but I find it so interesting because I just think to myself, like,

We should not have an attitude, right? Of, I've heard this all before, I've heard this 40 times. If you've been a Christian for a very long time, you probably have heard it like hundred times. But the whole point is that there are things I'm sure I've heard 40 or 50 times that I still haven't implemented into my life. Like, they're not, I'm not actually doing them. So I probably need to hear them again. But I think that's another thing of having a soft heart, saying I've heard this before, but I can hear it again. There's something, there's always something for me to learn.

And I also think, I won't go off on a rant about preaching, but I also think that the Lord can move through anyone's, preaching. I've sat through what I think are some not good sermons, but the Lord can still speak to me through them no matter what. So I think what you've said, Mark, every time I go into church, I'm going in like humble and low to learn something. I think being able to keep that even when you've been a Christian for a long time is really important.

(18:52.378)
I think the author of Hebrews feels your frustration. In chapter five, he says, you've become dull of hearing. And he kind of says, I'm going have to teach you this again. So I feel like it's the same sort of idea. And I think of something that one of my personal Christian heroes said. Somebody said to him, that was a good sermon, of a sermon that somebody else preached. And he just said, all sermons are good.

Yeah, that's good. Yeah, I like it. Yeah, yeah. And like you, have sat through, well, actually, I, you know, as a preacher, I have preached many terrible sermons and certainly heard many terrible sermons. But you know, there's something about that, you know, all sermons are good. Every time you listen, there's something for you. Yeah, it's really good. Something, just going back

to chapter three, another idea beyond this idea of like a soft heart versus a hard heart that he does talk about and I think is interesting. This is in verse 13. He says, exhort one another every day. So it's that community idea being in the community of believers together. As long as it's still called today, that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.

So like you talked Mark about that level ground at the cross, the fact that we're all sinners, but I think here he's drawing this attention to the fact that sin and that temptation to sin can be so attractive. It can seem more attractive to us than obeying God and following him. And he's saying, don't be deceived. And I think that's like a, it's a slightly different thing to just

our response, hardening your heart to God. saying the alternative, like perhaps what you're going after instead, you've been deceived because this isn't going to bring you the life and the good things that it promises. It's going to harm and death. Yeah, that's good. It's interesting because he's saying don't harden your hearts yourself, like don't make the decision to do that. Then also saying the deceitfulness of sin can harden your heart as well. So it's sort of like twofold.

(21:08.994)
Yeah, that's interesting. Let's keep moving. We've got lots to get through. So the sort of section we sort of want to look at is the end of chapter five into the beginning of chapter six. Probably we could start with this verse that Esther was just talking about, verse 11, where the writer says that you've become dull of hearing. But then beyond that, basically, this is the passage where the author is talking about sort of moving on from just having milk.

into having solid food. So sort of moving on beyond sort of elementary teachings into something that is more substantial. Which, passage is really interesting because when you read it, those things in a way don't seem all that elementary. So I'll just read it quickly. Let us press on to maturity. Sorry, this is chapter six, verse one. Let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith towards God.

of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment." So in a way, it kind of sounds as if the author is saying, well, these things are easy and simple and let's move past them. And then we read them today and we go, I don't think I fully understand the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment. What do you guys think about that? And do you think the author is saying something else? I read a few things that maybe suggest that the author is getting at something different, but I wonder what you think.

Well, I haven't read loads of commentaries, but I was thinking about sort of my experience of coming to faith, you know, my own like real decision about faith and how I've kind of seen that play out in other people's lives. And I don't think you need to understand everything to be saved. You know, our salvation centers on the gospel message about Jesus, learning who He is, what He's done for us and saying, I want you to be my savior, know, accepting Him.

So that's elementary in a sense, because he's the way, truth and the life. There's no other way to the father except through him. So it's not that that isn't amazing and it's not complicated. Like how does that actually work? Like you could spend a lifetime exploring that. that's, but I think that's what he's saying. You've got this elementary point, you've heard it, but you haven't moved on from there to look at any of what that means beyond your, you know,

(23:35.062)
I think that's something that's great about salvation is you don't have to pass a really detailed theological course to be a Christian. All of us, no matter who we are and whatever, whether we're ever going to be like a super theologian or not, we should have this desire to know more. It's a worthwhile journey, isn't it, to learn, to grow, to mature, which is what he's saying. You need to mature in your faith.

Yeah, I agree with that. And I think that's the point of these opening verses of chapter six, which, I absolutely agree with you, Noel, they don't seem that basic, they? They don't seem that elementary. You know, there are some quite difficult things there in some ways, but they are things that can be taught. know, they are things which can be explained to somebody in

you know, a month long discipleship course or something like that. So, and those are the foundational things which you can sort of get in your head, but getting them into your heart and understanding what they mean, I mean, that's more of a lifetime thing, isn't it? That's more what you were saying, Esther, isn't it? I think that's when you dwell on these truths and you let them sink in.

to your heart and you work out what they mean in your life. So maybe that's what he's getting at. Well, and I think he's saying that this is actually necessary because it talks about them kind of not having powers of discernment. So it's like we need to grow in faith because there will be times when our faith is tested, you know, and if we only have the most kind of basic understanding, maybe it's sort of like that flimsy house built on sand.

You you've got this belief in Christ, but then life comes, a storm comes and you are washed away because you never went on to firm up that foundation to build on it solidly. So he's saying it is necessary because if you just stay here, how will you weather the storms? Yeah. I was reading a bit, this kind of goes for both of you said that

(26:03.328)
Another thing that might be happening is that a lot of these things that he lists are sort of normal tenets of Judaism. So the Jews of the time would have sort of known about these things and have learned about these things. And that potentially he's listing them to say, you can't just go back to these things and just have these things that are what are feeding you. But actually moving on to solid food,

is something deeper than this, than just sort of these things that you know about and like you said, could learn about. And it made me think about, sort of in all of Paul's writing and in the New Testament, a lot of what he's trying to say is that being a Christian is knowing Christ. Like the foundation of your faith is in knowing the person of Jesus. And that in a way, that's deeper than knowing about eternal judgment and these sorts of things that

Again, you can have mental knowledge about and learn about, but it's different from actually knowing Christ. And I wonder if that's a bit too of sort of the more solid food he's talking about. That nearly makes sense. I think that's a really good perception. And it hadn't struck me the, you know, the crossover really between Judaism and Jewish beliefs and Christianity. And yeah, you can see all that in Judaism. I agree. And he goes on, I think so.

totally in line with what you were saying, Noel. He's talking, there's less of this focus on ritual and stuff and what he goes on to talk about more. So yes, knowing Jesus, that then the fruit of that in someone's life, that's something he goes into in this next passage in Hebrews 6. So it's the more we know Christ, we're not going to make us look more ritualistic and all of those things. It's going to produce a different kind of fruit.

And that's the fruit that He wants. And it shows maturity in faith. It shows active faith, not passive faith, faith like you were saying, all of those things. Yeah. And then, after this list at the beginning of chapter six, there are these verses that are very contentious that have been debated over for a long time. Basically, they talk about whether someone can lose faith.

(28:25.9)
And if they have lost faith, whether they can come back to it. So this is verses five and six. And then having fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance since they again crucified to themselves the Son of God and put him to shame. Didn't want to just really move past these as they're quite contentious. Yeah, any thoughts on this? Well, I think we come back to this question about what he's actually saying, about what he's actually talking about. And I think in our

day and age. Maybe it's always been like this, I don't know, but certainly I see it in our own times that there's kind of a distinction between what we believe in our heads, know, sort of intellectual understanding, belief in God, belief in Christ, whatever, and what we actually do in terms of being part of a Christian community. So can have one but not necessarily the other. In the evangelical circles, you know, my own evangelical tradition,

there's a tendency to think, you can believe and that's your personal relationship with Jesus and that's what constitutes your salvation. then church is kind of an add on, it might be an essential add on, but it's a different thing. And I don't think it's the same for most Christians throughout the world actually, outside that particular tradition, but certainly

Back in those days, I think they kind of went with each other. So if you're a Christian, you're part of a community. And the idea that you're just a Christian in your head, but what you do doesn't really relate to that. That would have been a very peculiar idea. So I think that's what lies behind what the writer is saying here. It's much more about belonging.

I think and being brought back to repentance. Well, that is being restored to the community. I think it's a psychological insight. It's a case of community discipline, it seems to me.

(30:39.342)
I hope you don't mind, but I'm not sure I completely agree with that. not. Yeah. I feel, so I do think there's that community element. There's the life of believers together and what you see and witness in that and how you, you know, what you do, because it talks about, you know, they've been enlightened, they've tasted the heavenly gift shared in the Holy Spirit and tasted the goodness of God's Word and the powers of the age to come.

So it's this idea that they've had a full life among the believers. They've heard the gospel message. They've heard the scriptures being unpacked. They've seen the Holy Spirit at work. But I think this idea here, so the one who turns away from that, I think it is somebody who's seen it all. They've heard the message and they've rejected it.

There's not some piece of the puzzle that wasn't told to them so they didn't understand, they missed it. They have heard it, but they've decided, I don't want that. So I think the language of it being impossible to restore them to repentance, I think that's a bit of a stumbling block. It certainly has been for me in understanding this, that if we're talking about someone who does not want to repent, they are determined that they don't want it and they're embracing a completely different life.

then it sort of makes sense in that way because they've seen the gift that's on offer and they've rejected it. And I think that's why it then kind of goes on to talk about this idea that they're sort of crucifying again, the son of God. So this, the son of God has authored salvation to them. He's died in their place and they've said, I don't want you. I don't accept that gift. And I'm going to keep doing the things that sent you to the cross.

that you atoned for on behalf of humanity. I'm actually going to go and do more of that. that, so I think it, I feel as though this passage is describing that kind of person. I don't think it's talking about people, you know, if you're worried, listening to it like, but I've sinned since being a Christian, I certainly have. I don't think that's the same because I want to repent after I've sinned. It may take me some time to get there, but I want to repent. I'm sorry for what I've done.

(33:05.592)
and I come to Christ and I repent, you know, and that's different from someone who will not do that. Yeah, I don't disagree with that at all. And I certainly don't think it's talking about people who have sinned and want to repent and want to come back. I don't think that's the point as well. And I think he is talking about people who have turned away, know, who might have drifted away or consciously rejected the faith. What I struggle to believe is that this passage and passages like this are

about the eternal destiny, if you like. I think that's not true because I think you have to put against that passages like Romans 5 to 8, which just have this sense of God holding us in an eternal grip, know, nothing shall separate us, etc., etc., etc. So I think, you know, that speaks to me of the, if you like, the generosity of God.

I was helped actually by something else that Tom Wright said about this particular passage. He said, should not press the writer for answers to questions that he wasn't asking, rather we should let him pose his sharp and uncomfortable question directly to us. Are we or are some within our Christian fellowship in danger of turning our backs on the faith and joining in the general tendency to sneer at the gospel and the church?

And I think that's a wise thing to say really. So he's talking to us, I think, as a warning to us. Don't drift away, don't turn away. What do you think, Noel? Yeah, that's interesting. I do agree with what you said, Esther, about how I do think he's talking about the type of person you said he's talking about. I struggle with the idea that if someone then came to Christ,

accepted the message and then turned from it, that there is no sort of second chance, that there is no way they could come back because it doesn't line up with who I believe God to be. And it also doesn't line up with much of the rest of Scripture for me. So, I was even thinking about how in Hebrews 2, we just read last episode, that it says that Christ tasted death for everyone. Or just Scriptures where it says that God would wish that all men would be saved. And I struggle to think that

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If someone has fallen away, that's it. And there's just no chance that they can then go, I fell away from this, but actually I want to come back to it. I struggle with that. But I don't think it is saying that. I think it's describing the person who has set their heart not to follow God and not to accept Him. For the rest of life. Yes, yeah. Because, you know, why is He encouraging these people to persevere? It's because perseverance in faith does matter.

And equally, if you persevere in unfaith, in like rejecting God, that matters. You know, when we were looking at the Sermon on the Mount in that series and we looked at the narrow road and the wide gate or narrow gate, the wide gate, it's talking about where is your response to God leading you? Is it leading to life or is it leading to death? so I don't think this is a passage that's saying, when it says it's impossible,

I don't think it's saying there's no second chance because that person has decided they don't want that. If at the moment they did, the moment they turned to God, they wouldn't be this person anymore, would they? I see what you're saying. Yeah. So I think we can get really hung up reading this passage thinking, gosh, you know, we can get hung up on that word impossible. And then we're thinking about the type of person it is, we might be worried for ourselves.

But I think it's talking about somebody who has rejected Jesus and they aren't going to change their mind because Jesus is the way, the truth and the light and the only way to the Father is through him. So if you do reject him, how do you get to the Father? You've chosen not to. And that sounds, it sounds really, I don't think we in the West, in England, I don't think we feel comfortable just putting it like that.

But what do we miss if we don't? You know, he's kind of saying, this is important, your response to God matters and you need to turn to him. I think it's quite nice though, because he goes on to say in verse nine, he's like, though we speak in this way, yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things. So he's not berating this audience and saying, this is you. And it's not that kind of hellfire and brimstone like, you're going to hell. You know, it's not that message. He's saying,

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Don't be like this because it has serious consequences. Now I'm sure this isn't you. I'm sure you want to persevere. Let me help you with that." And he goes on to encourage them to persevere. So I think this is a tough part of the message, but sometimes don't we just need to hear the bold truth? And if you're like, what's the decision I have to make here? And what will the consequences be? What do I want?

Yeah, it's interesting. do like what you've pointed out about sort of, he speaks very directly and harshly in a lot of the things he says throughout the book, but then there's always grace and there's always love at the same time, which I really like. Well, wouldn't bother saying this if he didn't love them and if he didn't care for them. That's why he's written this letter is because he does care and he wants them to receive salvation. That's why he keeps telling them, don't drift away from it, don't neglect it.

Don't harden your hearts against it. Take hold of it and persevere with it. Cause he loves them.

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Let's move to our last thing we wanted to touch on in terms of these warnings we find throughout Hebrews, which is in chapter 12, verses 14 through 28, more specifically. Yeah, well, we were prepping for this. Mark just pointed out this really good contrast we see here.

Sort of another warning followed by again, this great sort of encouragement. It's mighty and it's really beautiful. Mark, do you want to talk a bit about that? Yeah, it just focuses on chapter 12, verse 14 onwards. The writer says, well verse 15, see to it that no one misses the grace of God, no bitter root grows up to cause trouble.

And again, it's this warning against turning your back on God, turning your back on the gospel. he kind of draws this contrast between the law as it was given to Moses. You have not come to a mountain that can be touched, that's burning with fire, darkness, bloom and storm. You know, it's all absolutely terrifying. And then he says, you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem.

thousands of angels and joyful assembly and it's all bright and light and wonderful. I think what struck me about this passage was that he's speaking of the gospel, he's speaking of Christian faith as a wonderful, beautiful, joyful thing. So you've got these warnings scattered throughout the book about drifting away and fun and some of them come accompanied with threats as we were just

just talking about, but the overall thing is don't turn your back on something beautiful to go back to something terrifying. And it just reminded me of a holiday I had a few years ago in Greece. We went to a place called the Diktion Cave in Crete. And the Diktion Cave is one of several, actually, birthplaces of the god Zeus. And you go down and down and down.

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down into the bowels of the earth, down this sort of crazy staircase. And it's really deep. And obviously it's done up for tourists. There were concrete steps and a handrail and you got down there and there were lights at the bottom. But you could still sense how terrifying it must have been back in the day when it was an active shrine, perhaps. Maybe there was a priest at the bottom.

There'd be an altar, there'd be a fire burning. You'd go down and down and down, no handrails, no lights. And you'd smell the blood and the smoke and the animals as you got closer down to the bottom. And it must have been an absolutely terrifying experience that you go down there and it's dark and it's spooky and you are in the presence of an utterly terrifying deity.

and you make your sacrifice and you come back up again into the light. going down there just made me able to envisage the kind of world that these people lived in, where gods were terrifying, not the Old Testament gods so much. And I would always resist any

attempt to say, well, you know, the God of the Old Testament, all horrible and the God of the New Testament, all lovely. It's not like that. But that's the comparison that the writer makes, you know, between fear and between love. And that experience just really drove it home to me what people of that time were moving away from when they accepted the gospel and when they came to understand the love of God for them.

And the idea of turning back to something dark after you've experienced the light is something that's really, you know, it's almost unthinkable really that anybody would want to do that. And that's the thread that's running through Hebrews, it seems to me. Definitely. I mean, yeah, in this passage, the way it kind of talks, so it is definitely about are you fearful of God's presence or are you joyfully, you know, boldly approaching God?

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And he's kind of saying, now, because of Jesus, you can, because in the past, you know, God was so holy, you couldn't stand in His presence and not die. But now, because of Jesus, He's gone behind the curtain, it talks about. So into the Holy of Holies in the temple on your behalf, and now you have access to the Father and you don't need to be afraid. You can be, it talks about here in this passage, I think it's like this picture of angels and other people who've gone before us.

worshiping joyfully in God's presence, and that is such a hopeful picture. Yeah. I think we talked, we talked in the last episode about Jesus being our pioneer, really, the one that goes before us, and you know, that's all true.

Good. I think we're going to wrap up here. Thank you, Mark. Thank you, Esther. We'll be back next week for another episode. We have Stuart Ford coming on for our next episode as a guest. He's brilliant. He's our Catholic engagement manager at Bible Society, and he wrote for the Hebrew Journal. So we're really excited to have a conversation with him. Until then, if you love the podcast, you can leave us a review or rating.

If you want to send in any questions, we'd love to hear what you think about anything, Hebrews, what we've said. So can send those in to biblesociety.org.uk forward slash rooted questions and we'll see you next week for another episode. Thanks for listening to this episode of the Rooted Podcast. To find out more about Bible Society's mission to invite people to discover the Bible for themselves in England, Wales and around the world, visit biblesociety.org.uk.