New Models for Connection in Classical Music with Marna Seltzer and Dasha Koltunyuk

In this bonus episode of "Leading the Way" with Jill S. Robinson speaks with Marna Seltzer and Dasha Koltunyuk from Princeton University Concerts. Explore how they're reshaping the classical music landscape through groundbreaking initiatives designed to connect deeply with audiences in a post-pandemic world. From the serene blend of music with meditation to the powerful Healing with Music series, discover how they're pioneering new pathways to engage, inspire, and heal. 

This episode isn't just about music; it's about community, innovation, and the relentless pursuit of relevance in a rapidly changing world. Learn about their strategies for audience growth, the embrace of social media to capture unique concert experiences, and the vision for the future of classical music. With insights on building trust and community, adapting to digital advancements, and maintaining core values, this conversation is a beacon for anyone looking to make a lasting impact in the arts. 

For additional resources and to sign up for the podcast newsletter, we invite you to visit our website at leadingthewaypodcast.com.     

  

Key Topics & Chapter Markers:     

  

1. Podcast Introduction [00:00:01.930]: Introduction to the podcast, guests Marna Seltzer and Dasha Koltunyuk, and their work at Princeton University Concerts. 
2. Adapting to Change [00:01:35.670]: How Princeton University Concerts is evolving with new approaches to arts and culture. 
3. Pandemic Impact [00:02:01.690]: The significant effects of the pandemic on the arts and the necessity for new planning and thinking. 
4. Music's Importance [00:04:45.050]: Discussion on the enhanced appreciation of music during the pandemic. 
5. Innovative Programs [00:06:39.620]: Introduction of new programming, including music with meditation and the Healing with Music series. 
6. Audience Growth [00:07:04.230]: The increase in events, subscribers, and efforts to engage a broader audience. 
7. Healing Series [00:09:42.410]: Details on the Healing with Music series and its goals. 
8. Audience Diversity [00:12:45.600]: The variety in audience demographics and how different programs attract different groups. 
9. Community Building [00:15:23.670]: Reflections on the importance of building trust and community before and after the pandemic. 
10. New Initiatives [00:18:53.550]: Introduction of unique initiatives like pre-concert speed dating to foster community. 
11. Intergenerational Values [00:21:38.510]: Discussion on shared values across different generations within the team. 
12. Post-Pandemic Adaptation [00:23:11.150]: Adapting to the post-pandemic world with new perspectives and digital savviness. 
13. Social Media Engagement [00:24:48.420]: How social media initiatives like "sound bites" have enhanced audience engagement. 
14. Future Vision for 2040 [00:27:08.150]: Dasha Koltunyuk's outlook on the future of classical music and its universal appeal. 
15. Classical Music Resilience [00:28:53.440]: Marna Seltzer reflects on the longevity and future challenges of classical music. 
16. Demographic Changes [00:32:37.810]: Discussion on how future demographic and community changes might influence classical music engagement. 
17. Building Community Values [00:34:21.730]: The podcast concludes with thoughts on shared creativity values and lessons from Princeton University Concerts' experiments in community engagement. 

  

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Creators & Guests

Host

Jill S. Robinson

CEO and Owner, TRG Arts

What is Leading the Way with Jill S. Robinson?

Leading the Way with Jill S. Robinson is a journey into the international arts and culture industry. Join Jill, a driving force in the sector who has counseled arts leaders for more than three decades, for conversations with some of the most insightful and daring minds leading the way to a resilient 21st century.

[00:00:01.930] - Jill S. Robinson

New models. TRG's leading the Way podcast has presented leaders who see new models and ways as part of our current and future resilience. Today's no exception. In this episode, I speak with Marnice Seltzer, director of Princeton University concerts, and her brilliant marketing and outreach manager, who's become PUC's lead on explore new ways of connecting people with classical music. From meditation and music, to health and music, to meeting like minded singles who love music, Princeton University concerts is exploring the role of music in our lives way beyond the traditional concert experience. They're definitely leading the way. I'm glad you've chosen to join me. Marna and Dasha, thank you so much for making time to join me for leading the way with Jill S. Robinson, a podcast we at TRG started at the end of last year. It's designed to showcase new ways of thinking, evolving leadership, and operational models. And I want to get your reaction to a statement that I've been thinking a lot about and ask you to join it up with how you see and what you see changing at Princeton University concerts. And the statement is this, you're going to know it because it's one of those that pops up regularly.

[00:01:35.670] - Jill S. Robinson

But I've been thinking about it for myself, my business, and the sector, and it's that which got you here, that which got you here won't take you there. And I wonder how you think that might apply to what you all are up to at PUC.

[00:01:58.790] - Dasha Koltunyuk

I'll jump in.

[00:02:00.470] - Jill S. Robinson

Thank you, Marna.

[00:02:01.690] - Marna Seltzer

Yeah, I mean, it really has been an extraordinary journey. I'm waiting for some academic unit to study the impact of being sort of locked out of arts experiences for the two years that we were. I think that when we were able to open our doors again and welcome people back, there was, of course, an incredible relief and excitement about being able to do that. But there was also a really clear feeling that we were different. We were all different coming out of the pandemic, and it did not feel right to go back to business as usual. I think one of the things that we learned is that it gave us a chance to sort of stop and listen and read and plan and think in a way that we just don't.

[00:03:12.760] - Jill S. Robinson

Normally have that I find myself missing that time a little bit.

[00:03:17.010] - Marna Seltzer

I know. I giggled before.

[00:03:19.040] - Jill S. Robinson

It's like, oh, gosh, I know.

[00:03:21.570] - Marna Seltzer

I do remember the months. It's almost like when you go to visit a foreign country and you think, I'm going to stop and have tea every afternoon at 03:00 you're so committed to it, and you do it for a few months, and then you stop having the 03:00 tea. But it just felt like we came out of it with all these aspirations that we had really had time to think deeply about. And if there was ever a moment for sweeping change, it had arrived. It also felt like it was a remarkable. It still feels like it's a remarkable opportunity. When you work on a college campus, for example, a good portion of our audience is students, and they're here for four years. And so, actually, the students that knew us when we went into the pandemic weren't here anymore. We kind of got a reset. I mean, we had a lot of loyal subscribers, and they came back, but we had a chance to reset with audience. The one thing that we noticed immediately was that there was a renewed sense of urgency in the audience, and audience seemed to have understood the role that the arts played in their lives, and it got a lot clearer about it in a really exciting way.

[00:04:45.050] - Marna Seltzer

It felt like the stakes were higher in the best possible way. People knew why they were there, why they were spending their time and their money to come to a concert. And I think that's still there. I'm going to stop there and let Dasha answer that question, too. Yeah.

[00:05:03.650] - Dasha Koltunyuk

Well, as you were asking it, Jill, I had this phrase came to mind from something that Martin Luther King actually once said. He talked about the fierce urgency of now. And I think that we always respond to the now, and the now right now has been so shaped by the pandemic. And the pandemic in itself was a time where we were all much more aware of the present moment. And what mattered in these moments of everything that matters really crystallizes. And so there is the sense of knowing where to move forward. So in thinking about how we get there, the. There was much more clear. Even though it was there before, we just didn't see it the same way.

[00:06:02.160] - Jill S. Robinson

Yeah.

[00:06:05.670] - Dasha Koltunyuk

So I think that in many ways, that's how our shift happened, especially from a programmatic standpoint. And as Marna said, the mindfulness of everyone coming to music with either a renewed sense of why it matters to them or with a curiosity. I think that's another thing that happened during the pandemic, that people became much more open in many ways to new experiences, to new things, and open to perhaps trying something new as you were.

[00:06:39.620] - Jill S. Robinson

Building toward what you didn't know was a global pandemic, but you were experiencing changes in growth. But was the programming more traditional in terms of university presenting at that time? Or did you start to dabble in some of these new programmatic elements before the pandemic hit us so hard?

[00:07:04.230] - Marna Seltzer

More than dabbling, I think when I took the job, the series was quiet. We didn't have very many subscribers. We didn't have very many concerts. I think when I started, we had eight concerts a year and roughly 200 subscribers. And this year, we have, I think, 30 events total and 600, 700 subscribers over time. And I think one thing that Dasha and I share, which we talk about a lot, is big ambition to kind of spread the gospel and to share our own passion and our own enthusiasm with as many people as possible. And so the kind of base of like, okay, how are we going to do that? How are we going to make our concerts relevant to as many people as possible? And how are we going to kind of think about changing up the experience so that more people feel like it is relevant to them or they can make their own personally relevant connection was always there. And we started immediately to kind of experiment with different concert series. And before the pandemic, in fact, Dasha had come up with this brilliant idea about combining music and meditation with meditation with live music.

[00:08:36.580] - Marna Seltzer

And that series still exists now, and it's a really good example of multiple reasons for people to come into the concert hall. So it's a free event. It's like 30 minutes to an hour, depending on what you make of it. And we see serious meditators, and we see serious concert goers, and we see everything in between. And it's over the lunchtime, and it's really easy to kind of drop in and just have that experience. Yeah, we had been doing a lot of experimenting, but I think as we were thinking about, like, okay, how can we signal, too, that we want to kind of lean into the collective experience that we've all just had during this pandemic? What would that look like? And what really came out of that was our healing with music series, which was Dasha's idea as well, and that we just started last year. And I'm going to let Dasha tell you more about it.

[00:09:42.410] - Jill S. Robinson

The things that we see in data as we look at the creative industry and consumer reaction to it is a desire for what I'm going to overly simplify as more immersive experiences. And it strikes me that much of what you're developing or testing and learning about provides me a very different kind of experience that builds on what we're seeing people more and more interested in. So please say more healing with music.

[00:10:13.810] - Dasha Koltunyuk

Was born in the middle of the pandemic, before we came back to the concert hall, and at a moment in my own life when I was quite ill and thinking about the many ways that music has saved me, we were also very eager to give musicians a platform that normally isn't there, that's often stigmatized. For example, one of the first artists we brought was cellist Joshua Roman, who we invited to talk about his experience as someone who suffers with long Covid now and someone whose career was almost destroyed by this illness. But at the time, we had to have a conversation. Is this something he even would be comfortable talking about?

[00:10:57.490] - Marna Seltzer

Right.

[00:10:58.450] - Dasha Koltunyuk

And thankfully, his career is thriving right now, and he's playing all over the place. But these are often things that musicians don't necessarily want to talk about, because it could. Because audiences expect musicians to be these gods that come on stage.

[00:11:16.010] - Jill S. Robinson

Right.

[00:11:16.500] - Dasha Koltunyuk

They don't really have a life. Yeah. So just bringing the very personal nature of music making out to the forefront.

[00:11:24.890] - Jill S. Robinson

And that series is a discussion series. Are musicians invited to perform, and do they typically or no? Yes, they do.

[00:11:32.110] - Dasha Koltunyuk

They do. And they often perform pieces that are somehow relevant to the story they're telling. For example, John Batiste played a lullaby that he wrote for Suleik while she was in the hospital. Joshua played pieces. Know the last piece he played before he got Covid, and then the first piece he played after being able to hold a cello for the first time.

[00:11:56.790] - Marna Seltzer

Wow.

[00:11:57.500] - Dasha Koltunyuk

So it's always music that somehow is related.

[00:12:01.820] - Jill S. Robinson

Marna, you made the decision to partner with Dasha in this really high impact way, and you described significant subscriber growth. There are life stage realities around deciding to subscribe. I'm curious about what the age demo is of your subscribers, what you're seeing in that subscriber base. Who are they? Are they closer to my age or Dasha's? And just give us a characterization of who is participating and what you're seeing in the concert hall in these different iterations of programming.

[00:12:45.600] - Marna Seltzer

It really does depend on the series. The concert classic series. I think probably the audience looks more typical of an audience that you would expect at a classical music concert. Just sort of a little on the older demographic side. Our audience tends to be a pretty healthy mix of Princeton students, students from other places too, but students, student aged, older students, like college age, and subscribers. We have a lot of subscribers, so that forms kind of the basis of that series, and they are definitely 50 plus. But a lot of these new initiatives have not just brought new people into the concert hall, but they've certainly brought people of different ages into the concert hall. And we see that a lot with all of the series that we're talking about. We see it with meditation. We've seen it a lot with healing, with music. I think one of the interesting things to say about healing with music is that, unlike, I think, anything else that we do, people come to these events for intensely personal reasons, and it's different for every single event. So it's been actually really challenging. We tend to think about these subscription series where if you like one, you like all of them.

[00:14:08.990] - Marna Seltzer

And this is a little bit different. And so we've seen a little bit of everything. And obviously, we're just two years in, so we're still very much building the audience. But I don't know that the cap that we tend to put on with our other series where we think, okay, we just need to get them in the door, and then they're going to keep coming, and keep coming, and keep coming. It's going to be the norm with healing. I think we see different people every single time, and it tends to coalesce around whatever the issue is that we're talking about, which means that it's pretty hard to meet people's expectations when you don't know who's walking through the door. And for a series that is really trained on meeting people's expectations, that's been interesting to talk about. And I have to say this is an exact answer to the question that you just asked. But I'm sitting here reflecting as we're talking about kind of the before times and the after times. If I were going to generalize what we were doing before the pandemic, even though there was still a lot of experimentation going on, was we were building a community and we were building trust with that community.

[00:15:23.670] - Marna Seltzer

And it takes a long time to do that. And I think that what that meant is that people were clear that they wanted to come back because it was a community that they felt comfortable and that they felt like they belonged. And they did come back, but it also meant that we were ready to kind of push people in different directions. I think you have to be really careful about how and when you take those risks. You can't just come in and say, well, I feel like whatever, exploring this brand new series, and so we're just going to do that. So it is interesting to think about it that way. I think that the early years of the job for me were just about gaining that trust and getting to the point where the people would come in the concert hall and they would. I mean, the ideal point is you get to the point where they say, I don't know what I'm going to see tonight, but I know it's going to be good because it's always good. Right? That's what you hope they say. So that's kind of an aside.

[00:16:31.710] - Jill S. Robinson

That's a really important aside because the field, in reaction to the societal awakenings and awarenesses that took place, especially here in the United States, but everywhere, resulted in some inconsistencies. Some people went back immediately to what they were doing previously. Some people created very quick, hard right turns that left communities a little breathless. And what you're describing is, oh, wait, in retrospect, you may have known it then, too, but in retrospect, we can really see that by developing a community who felt connected to what we were doing, it gave us a trust based platform, so to speak, to begin experimenting because we'd started to do it before we found ourselves in the middle of this crisis. And so we had a group of people who were more able to follow us and who were, I heard you say, personally connected to what we were doing. I think the reason I was really wanting so much to have this conversation, and now even more, is the creative way that you're thinking about what does classical music, how does it show up and how does it connect to people? I come from the classical music industry on the administrative side and have known it since the 1980s.

[00:18:13.420] - Jill S. Robinson

And what excites me about what you're testing and learning about and trying here is it turns on its head a little bit. Some of the assumptions about classical music and what we can and can't do in classical music that you're getting positive feedback about and building on as you work together, are there new things you're thinking about or next steps you're thinking about that have caught your attention? I'd love to hear them.

[00:18:53.550] - Dasha Koltunyuk

Well, as you were saying, what can and can't be done in classical music, I just smiled because one of the most unexpected things that we launched is a series called Dore Meet, which is pre concert speed dating, which is completely out of left field or right field. I'm horrible at sports. I don't know. But the idea there being that a lot of people, when they stop coming, especially older patrons, stop coming to concerts because they have no one to go with any, their partners die or things happen, I think that happens on the younger front as well. Students come to campus, they don't know people and are a little shy. And this is a way to really bond over a shared love of music. We have a speed dating event. We have a speed friending event. We have an LGBTQ mingle. And so the idea is everyone coming together in a social setting and then going to a concert together. So I think we're thinking programmatically also outside of the concert hall as well. What happens before people even step foot to hear the musician that we've programmed?

[00:20:14.330] - Jill S. Robinson

Do you have any success stories from the speed dating? Any case?

[00:20:19.260] - Marna Seltzer

Studies are waiting for an on stage wedding. Let me just.

[00:20:23.190] - Jill S. Robinson

Oh, my goodness gracious.

[00:20:25.070] - Marna Seltzer

Wow.

[00:20:25.930] - Dasha Koltunyuk

Talk about high ambitions.

[00:20:27.440] - Jill S. Robinson

Yeah, I love it, though. It is a social experience attending a concert, and I certainly will go by myself, but I would love the opportunity to meet other classical music lovers and just get a chance to socialize a bit, whether it know for one purpose or another. You're right. This notion of going together, it's another community kind of aspect to what you're building there. Marna, I'm curious if you. You know, I didn't prepare you for this question, but I'm super curious in the field. There's a lot of talk about the multigenerational workplace, and I'm curious about what you've experienced, because you have a broad dimension of staff members from a demographic point of view. But in this particular relationship, it's quite close and right at the heart of what you're doing. And it doesn't have to be about Dasha in front of Dasha, but I am curious about what you observe the benefits are of.

[00:21:38.510] - Marna Seltzer

Yeah. Creation, and, I mean, I guess I would say two things, and one is specifically about Dasha. And I'm happy to say it in front of Dasha. And that is that, yes, it's true that she and I have very come from it from different places and are from different generations, but I think that we share the same core values about music, and I think that's true with everybody that we work with in our office, regardless of age. I think there's just a real deep understanding that creativity is kind of a core human characteristic that we all share, and it is what makes us human, and that music is accessible to everyone, regardless of their experience, their knowledge, their training, financial ability to pay for a concert, whatever that is, that it's a great equalizer. Even if we're coming at it from a different generational perspective, it would be hard to imagine working with someone that didn't share that in terms of. I will admit that when I came back from the pandemic, I felt more like a dinosaur than I've ever felt in my life for so many reasons. And I think it's an unsettling feeling, but I think it's a good feeling to have, too.

[00:23:11.150] - Marna Seltzer

I am surrounded by people who are a lot younger than me and have different perspectives and different ideas, and we just, for instance, added someone new to our staff who's really taken on some of the marketing role that Dasha's started doing, which has allowed Dasha to move into this other role. And she comes from the dance world. She does not come from the music world, but I still think she shares that kind of abiding belief in the arts and creative experiences. But she's really social media savvy, and she's savvy about communications in a way that I certainly don't think about them at all. And I think would venture to say even Dasha, who's an amazing communicator, doesn't exactly have that perspective. And it has been, like, head spinning to watch the audience engagement that she's been able to create just kind of in this whirlwind of activity on Instagram. And she stands outside the concert hall with this teeny little microphone, and she calls it sound bites. And she talks to people. And when you say, yeah, concert is communal, I'm thinking about last year, something that her name is Alexis. Alexis captured, which, you know, we never would have gotten before if we hadn't had someone with this kind of orientation and this energy to capture these points of view, know, experiences.

[00:24:48.420] - Marna Seltzer

This woman came, and Dasha, you're going to have to fill in any gaps that I leave. But this woman was visiting campus, and she just walked by the concert hall. She saw that there was a concert. She walked in, hadn't planned anything in. You know, just was walking by, and, like, she ended up giving us this sound bite which we've used over and over again. She just was like, this is life. This is the reason to live. It was so profoundly affected by the experience, and it wasn't just what was happening on stage. It was also kind of the vibe in the hall, and she met a bunch of people, and she was introducing herself, and it was just really remarkable. And that happens from having a different generation of people working in the office who were going after that kind of thing. I need to be pushed in those directions. It's been really good for the series.

[00:25:49.970] - Jill S. Robinson

I relate a lot to it, and there's so much wonderful challenges and provocations that come from different generations and people with different lived experiences being together. So I'm not at all surprised to hear you say it. So I think I want to wrap up with a question about the really future with a capital F. Dasha, you'll be here in 2040 in a way. I don't know that I will be. Marna, I won't speak for you, but I've started asking people to think about 2040 because 2030 is not that far away, and it still falls under the. I use the phrase that's different a little bit from Martin Luther King's, but it's the tyranny of the urgent, and 2030 still feels like it falls within this time, during which the field is recovering and still trying to stabilize and regrow. So I'm now taking it to 2040 to say, what do you see? What do you see, Dasha, for the sector in 2040? I want to hear from you too, Marna, but I'm particularly interested in your perspective.

[00:27:08.150] - Dasha Koltunyuk

I think I'm thinking of 2040 in the same way that I'm thinking about 2025 and 2070, in the sense of there is a strong core to music, there is this universal seed there, and I think people might have different ways of approaching it, or there might be different ways in which it could grow in a particular moment, depending on the circumstances and how what's going on in the world waters. That seed, that core of music is something that is there for us in this very comforting way. And so I think that a lot of the ways in which we've approached programmatic questions, audience building questions, these past few years haven't been based on trends, haven't been based on fleeting fads. It's always been thinking through things that have remained true, not necessarily in a conservative way, actually in a very forward thinking way, just adapting. Mean, you know, throughout the years, the size of concert halls has fluctuated. Or it was a moment when Franz list decided to turn the piano so that you could see the artist's profile change the way music know. It's these little things that happen incrementally. But the reason that people might go to a concert hall has always been constant.

[00:28:45.550] - Dasha Koltunyuk

And so I actually am thinking of it in very similar terms.

[00:28:51.240] - Jill S. Robinson

Marna, what would you add?

[00:28:53.440] - Marna Seltzer

Yeah, I totally agree. And I do have a long enough arc to have observed the conversation about graying audiences for a lot of years. And there's always been a sense of doom over that conversation that all the audience is going to die and then there won't be anybody left. And that has never happened. I do actually, just as an aside, believe about classical music in particular, for some reason, and I don't know what that reason is, but it does seem like something that your brain is just uniquely ready for later in life. So I think the graying of audiences is a thing that is with us to stay. And Puc has this incredibly long arc, like 130 years, and now it's lived through two pandemics and two wars, and we're. We're still here, you know, doing fundamentally the same thing we were doing 130 years ago this year. A woman named Maida Pollock, who ran the series for many years. And in some ways, I would credit her with kind of putting the series on the map. She died at 100, and she's very much missed. I was lucky enough to get to know her and really always was touched by how much commonality there was between my job and her job, even though she was doing this 50 plus years ago.

[00:30:41.440] - Marna Seltzer

But just as an aside, this is a funny anecdote, but a lot of things have changed on the university campus since the pandemic, and they've made our job a little bit tougher. And one example, just silly examples, is parking. During the pandemic, the university decided they really didn't want cars on campus anymore. And that's completely out of step with, of course, having people come to a concert. So that's been really challenging. And we've had all these conversations, and your gut instinct is to go, are we even going to be able to present concerts anymore? Because where are people going to park?

[00:31:19.230] - Jill S. Robinson

Right.

[00:31:21.210] - Marna Seltzer

This is just funny. But as we were researching some stuff about Maida, because we wanted to write something up about her contributions to the series, at the end of this year, my colleague Carrie came across something in the archives, which was a memo that she had written to the powers that be literally 50 plus years ago about parking and the situation. And it was literally word for word, the memo that I would have written. It just was so funny to be reminded of that. So I agree with Dasha, but I will also say that I do think that it doesn't mean that the field isn't showing signs of struggle, because I think it does. And I think there are a lot of things that need to be worked on, and that is maybe even more clear than it ever has been. Maybe that's universal, too. There are always going to be things to work on, but there is a list of things in my mind that I think, oh, gosh, what kind of effect is that going to have on longevity? And what is that going to look like in 2040 or 20? I forget what year are we working on?

[00:32:37.810] - Jill S. Robinson

By 2040, there will be, I think every sort of demographer and people who think about the future can see real changes in the composition of communities will and how will that play out at Princeton? But what you said, dasha, that was interesting is know this belief in classical music actually has, during the pandemic, saw some interest and growing interest from younger generations writ large. And the connection to music, if that's the seed or the core. And then the question becomes, how does the community water that? And how does it become the right kind of garden? What's the right thing for a community? And what's right for Princeton will be quite different than what's right for Birmingham, Alabama, will be quite different than what's right for Kansas City, Missouri versus Seattle. But if I come full circle, what I heard was we believe and share values around creativity and classical music as the place where we'll focus in that which we're watering together. And we want to create community in our community. And you're experimenting with how to do that. And that it is at Princeton that it looks like this doesn't mean that scales automatically or should be replicated automatically to another community.

[00:34:21.730] - Jill S. Robinson

But there are lessons here that do apply depending on where leaders might find themselves. And 2040 is far enough away that we can just sort of imagine and play. Listen, both of you, thank you for making the time to talk with me about what you're doing there and inspiring us with some examples of change and different ways of thinking that are grounded in that which we were talking about. I'm so appreciative of our conversation and happy 2024 to both of you and to the whole team at Princeton University concerts. Thanks again.

[00:35:03.620] - Dasha Koltunyuk

Thank you so much, Jill.

[00:35:07.490] - TRG Arts

That's all for this episode of leading the way with Jill S. Robinson, brought to you by TRG Arts. Thanks for listening and believing that insightful, daring and innovative leadership is the way to a more resilient future for the arts and cultural industry. Make sure to subscribe to leading the way on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. And if you found this episode helpful, please rate and review the show for additional resources. And to sign up for the podcast newsletter, we invite you to visit our [e-mail].