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Exploring how humans connect and get stuff done together, with Dan Hammond and Pia Lee from Squadify.
We need groups of humans to help navigate the world of opportunities and challenges, but we don't always work together effectively. This podcast tackles questions such as "What makes a rockstar team?" "How can we work from anywhere?" "What part does connection play in today's world?"
You'll also hear the thoughts and views of those who are running and leading teams across the world.
[00:00:00] Dan: Promotions are great, but making the transition into the new role can be harder than we think. In particular, stepping up into a top team can require some big changes in mindsets and skillsets. This week on We Not Me, we talked to Iain Gauld, CIO at Contact Energy in New Zealand who's made these transitions and as a long-term student of leadership has reflected on how they can go wrong and also what makes them work.
[00:00:25] Hello and welcome back to We Not Me, the podcast where we explore how humans connect to get stuff done together. I'm Dan Hammond,
[00:00:36] Pia: And on Pia Lee.
[00:00:37] Dan: And today we're talking about leadership transitions, aren't we? And uh, yeah, we, we see this not working quite so well a lot of the time.
[00:00:48] Pia: because what happens is, is that people tend to do what they've done more of in their promotion. So they don't do something different. They do what got them promoted and they keep doing more of it. And then, and then try and understand or, or try and work out why things aren't going so well.
[00:01:05] I know you and I've shared this sort of focus on this work called the Leadership Pipeline, Ram Charan, et al, I, I think it's one of the most enduring, you know, there's good to great, there's a few Bibles out there, and, and this is, and this is one of them. And for the benefit of the listeners, really simple concept took through six stages, transitions. If you imagine a pipeline that gets you from individual contributor to effectively CEO of an enterprise.
[00:01:33] But in each of those transitions, you've got to let go approximately, let's just say about 30% of what got you to be successful and adopt new mindset, skills and areas of focus. And people just don't do that. So they end up sort of like, almost like the Michelin man of leadership stuck
[00:01:55] Dan: I've always loved your, um, this is not in the book unfortunately. It's your analogy and think it's so, but it's so visual that you end up just sort doing more and more. So, yeah, and I, I've said this, so I think mentioned it quite a bit. I think I did that when, and I had my first promotion. No one guided me through that. So I was clearly good at my individual contributed jobs, so I became, um, so I got promoted and I still stuck with things and it caused a lot of problems. So, um, I wasn't guided through it, but these transitions are really visible. I think the other thing I'd say, um, before we go to our guest is about that book. It's interesting. It was, came out of GM, which is very hierarchical old school organization, um, at the time
[00:02:34] Pia: a long time ago,
[00:02:35] Dan: Yeah. And long time ago. And it sort of looks on the face of it, it could be a sort of, a little bit archaic that you've got these levels of leadership in this hierarchy. The amazing thing is that the principle holds. Doesn't matter whether we, it's a matrix a a team of teams, uh, you know, a holacracy. Doesn't matter. You need to think, what role do I need to take here? And therefore what do I need to let go and what do I need to pick up pick up in order to, in order to do that? It's extraordinary how you, it's, it's evergreen.
[00:03:07] Pia: It's lasted the test of time and, and what I always, you know, you, you, you end up being promoted and you get utterly frustrated because you are doing the job of other people in your team and you know, again, again, a very technical term, you are constipating the pipeline because you are stuck. And you haven't evolved to the next level, but you are frankly very fed up with all the people below you because you think it's their problem, but actually it's a leadership problem yourself.
[00:03:33] And I find that, you know, that it's a tough grain of truth to swallow, but it's, I've worked with hundreds of people that's, that has shifted their career. Literally, you know, the, the realization of that. And they've gotta go up a level and stop doing too many things that get in the way.
[00:03:52] Dan: I think it'd be fair to say that in our leadership development consulting career, this is the thing that is the, the consistent, um, problem that we've seen, I reckon. But we are talking today to, um, Iain Gauld, who's the CIO of Contact Energy. Um, and he has navigated these transitions himself and he's also wonderfully reflective about them. Um, so I think there's a lot that a leader at any level can learn from Iain's experience. So let's go and listen to him now.
[00:04:22]
[00:04:26] Pia: And a really warm welcome to Iain Gauld. Welcome Iain.
[00:04:29] Iain: Morning. Yep. Welcome. Thank you.
[00:04:31] Pia: And, uIainIan is the CIO of Contact Energy. And, um, and a full disclosure, we have worked together for quite a number of years, so, um, it's a, it's a real, um, real value having on the podcast today because you've got this perspective around leadership from being inside it, um, as a technical leader and now as an enterprise leader. And that's, that's something I think we're gonna have a really good conversation about how to make that transition. First, though I think Dan actually called this carding you, which I think sort of that's what refs do,
[00:05:07] Iain: Am I gonna get sent off?
[00:05:09] Pia: I know exactly. Before it even started, it's over.
[00:05:12] Dan: Yeah. Well, I'm, I'm not giving you a red card, but I, I'm giving you a, a a, an orange card. My cut at this one. This, this may challenge your modesty a little Iain, but the card you've got is, I'm amazingly good at.
[00:05:25] Iain: Amazingly good. Um, yeah, you might need to change amazingly. Um.
[00:05:31] Dan: What am I reasonably good at?
[00:05:32] Iain: Yeah, I, I reason,
[00:05:33] Pia: Quite.
[00:05:35] Iain: I think, um, one of my strengths is that I'm a good listener, right? and it, it comes with my kind of upbringing, three older brothers and stuff. And then, and I've found that really useful and in my career and leadership, you know, actually often the best thing to do is to, to listen and, and learn. So I would probably say that's, that's, that's it for the moment.
[00:05:52] Pia: And has your ilstening skills changed over the years?
[00:05:55] Iain: Uh, yeah, no, definitely. Yeah. Became a better listener.
[00:05:59] Pia: What? From a rubbish listener to a better listener.
[00:06:02] Iain: Well, it's, it's, you know, it's the feedback as you're listening and, and the, the interaction and then how you get more from people. So you, you develop a bit more skills along the way.
[00:06:12] Dan: Well, Iain, you mentioned three brothers there, so, um, why don't you take us back and give us a little bio in a box.
[00:06:18] Iain: Yeah. Okay, cool. So you can tell by my funny accent, um, I'm from Scotland. I studied computer science, so I was gonna change the world. Uh, became a programmer, software engineer, worked in the UK for a number of years, initially travel industry and then into financial services. Then was looking for some different things to do and, um, managed to get a job in Australia. So I moved to Australia with a suitcase and a bike, ' cause I like to do cycling and, um, was in Australia for 10 years, again, financial services. And, and as time was going on, I was kind of going more into being part of teams, leading teams, managing teams and so on. And, and my leadership journey was, was kind of continuing.
[00:06:55] and then, met my wife in Australia, we had three children. and then, had a move to, uh, New Zealand, where my, my wife had actually studied and, and had spent the kinda latter half of our teenage career. So been in, in New Zealand now for seven years. So bit all over the place.
[00:07:10] Pia: And where's, where's home? Where's heart home?
[00:07:13] Iain: Yeah, I, I, I think of home in as two respects. I think there's home, home is where you live, you know, where your family is and stuff. And then heart home's probably, back with my, my mother and, and brothers and stuff back in Scotland,
[00:07:24] Pia: There's still a little bit of you locked away in Scotland.
[00:07:27] Iain: Yeah, yeah, you can't, you know, the accent's still there.
[00:07:30] Dan: it's gonna stay, it's gonna stay. Iain, so when you went into the world of technology and IT, you wanted to change the world, what, talk a bit more about that. 'cause that's some, I've, I've heard that a little bit from technologists before. What was your mindset at the time?
[00:07:45] Iain: I think, you know, even in the early days, technology could, could do so much and was at the core of a lot of companies. So you wanted to apply your skills and see you could make a difference in that respect. And, and I think what you learned very initially is actually there's a lot of learning to be done. And you play a small part, but then you can start to grow and have greater influence. It's that, that journey was gonna really interesting for me, for sure.
[00:08:08] Pia: And I have it on good authority. I, i e you, you told me about it. You were studying AI in the nineties,
[00:08:14] Iain: Yeah, and I mean, it's as a, um, I think, um, when I was at Edinburgh, they ran one of the first courses around artificial intelligence. We did a two year, uh, two years of AI and then, and then specialized in computer science. So yeah, what's really interesting is what was all theory that I was learning at the time it's now like it's real live, live and, and really happening and the technologies that people now have, you know, at their fingertips is, is you know, so advanced and so amazing that it's just seeing that actually come to fruition has, has been quite amazing to see.
[00:08:47] Dan: Iain, in my first job, I worked for actually for a, a technology, uh, computer, um, services company. And, uh, I used to go to different meetings. I was in sales and marketing, but I used to go to meetings with, um, with the development team and the analysts, and we each have to give a talk at each month, someone had to give a talk. And I gave a talk, this is in 1990, on expert systems, which of course here we are. And of course what I was doing at the, I looking back, I was sort of in my early twenties thinking, uh, and I used to talk about what if you have these values, old people are about to retire and they're, and, and, and you can, you've got to replicate, and they're basically, their life is pretty much useless, but they're gonna be, they're gonna be out to pasture pretty soon. But can you capture what's in their brains so that you know you can keep doing what you're doing? Now I'm that person. So, um, we are literally building an AI to try and replace ourselves. So I, I, I feel, I feel this is just, I'm getting my just desserts, frankly.
[00:09:44] Iain: yeah. It's come, come full circle. So.
[00:09:46] Dan: It has, exactly.
[00:09:48] Pia: So that's from your Edinburgh days. What did you see as some of the transitions from being a technology and a, and a technical expert to taking those transitions in that, you know, we call it the leadership pipeline, but you know, like ascending from being an individual contributor to running a team, to running a function. What, what have you seen as some of the sort of big transitions for you?
[00:10:17] Iain: Yeah, yeah, no, for sure. And we, and we did a little bit, when I studied you do some teamwork so you, so you learn a little bit. But I think yeah, you quickly understand as you go in a company for the first time, how much the team dynamics is important. And initially, you know, when, when I was doing more of a technical role, you know, your responsibility in that was, was fairly easy in terms of collaboration and stuff. As I then took on more team leadership roles and you know, running projects, then the responsibility becomes greater in terms of how do you form the teams, create the teams, manage the team dynamics.
[00:10:48] And so you kind of, it's a bit of a void of discovery in terms of you start to see, well actually yeah, there's quite a bit to my job, which has got nothing to do with technology. It's actually more around building teams, managing people, uh, and culture and, and, but then I've always kinda loved to, to, to study and learn. So then I kinda less technical, still had a good base, but then started to say, this stuff's really interesting. How do you become a good team leader? What can I learn in that space? And, and what are the skills I need? And, and so that kind of interest and then being able to practice it as well, make mistakes so that, that kind of journey's continued over time.
[00:11:22] And, and I always, you know. As I say to people, I used to think, you know, once you get to manuals and things, you, everything's perfect. And they're just perfect leaders. And then my realization more now is actually there's no perfect leader, actually, you're all, you're continuing learning and, and trying to improve. And, and, and that was a nice thing to say, you know, well actually I don't need to perfection. It's just, can I get better? Can I help my team grow? Can, you know, and so on.
[00:11:45] Dan: And going back to that first move into team leadership, what, what was it around that? Because we see a lot of people not actually making that move in effect, they sort of, they're the best sales person or the best developer, and they just do more of that when they're a team leader and still, and instead of actually taking them, sitting in the chair of the leader, taking on that, those, that role, what was it about your, about you at that time? Or did you get an inspiration or where did that come from to actually think, to be aware that that's a different role and to actually have an interest in it?
[00:12:22] Iain: I mean, I was kind of not, you know, moving much CareerWise in terms of the technology path. And it was a little bit of kind of frustration and, you know, and, and actually spoke to and we'd a bit of kind of merger at the company I was at at the time. And I spoke to the, to the leader at the time and I said, look, yeah, look, I'm trying, I, I'd like to take, and I realized what I wanted was more responsibility, and we were kinda split location and he said, well, look, there, someone wants to move down and, and we wanna, we're looking for a team leader to take on this group and do, do, would you be interested in that?
[00:12:50] So, and that was the pivot point for me. And, and, and I kind of said. because the at traction was more responsibility, and I realized, well, actually I don't need to do all this techy stuff all the time. This, if I can add value in different ways. And so he gave me that opportunity.
[00:13:03] And I, and you know, now I, I wasn't, you know, I'd not done team leading before and so on, but I really appreciated the, the chance to take on responsibility. So that was my kind of step in. And also learning for myself around, I do, you know, I like the responsibility side of it. And so that kind of got me into those roles. And then I, you know, I found, I enjoyed it. I could still apply some of my kind of technical skills. Um, and then I started learning more about this role. How do you become good at team leading or managing projects and so on. But that was the, the, I guess the break.
[00:13:32] Pia: In your observation of Working with teams now, do you think that awareness that there is a lot to be learned that's outside the technical role, and in fact you've gotta get pretty good at that leadership side, do you think that awareness is on the radar for many people? Or do you think sometimes it sort of comes as a bit of a blunt in instrument?
[00:13:51] Iain: Yeah, and I think it's a bit mixed. I think there's generally more knowledge now around, more traditional command control leadership and, and, and that, um, you know, as you think about all the, the evolution of agile and, and really understanding of what it creates, it makes to, to, to create a good team. So I think there's good knowledge out there, but I think that many people still haven't tapped into that, or it's still new to them. So, so that's kind of how I see it.
[00:14:15] And, and, and, you know, certainly what I've tried to focus on is, helping people understand the dynamics and, and how they can contribute beyond just their kind of functional, traditional, functional capabilities.
[00:14:25] Dan: Iain, you, I'm, I might be misinterpreting this, but do I pick up that the, the sort of Agile approach actually helped you in your own leadership to sort of give some structure? And has that guided you in some way or, um, or may, maybe better question is what role has that taken in, in, in the way you've led teams?
[00:14:45] Iain: Yeah, I think it, it was another kind of learning along the way around, Understanding around that servant leadership model and, and actually it's about, um, what's best for the team. And so as you start to kind of understand more of that, then again, you can build that into your kind of tool set and also your own skills and, and teams. So there's a lot of really good principles and, and, and dynamics that, you know, we use, you know, using the company today and, and, and, and for the last five, 10 years that have just helped appreciate the other side of the more technical and more functional aspects of the role. So that was, a lot of good things came from that for me. I think.
[00:15:20] Pia: I think there's a little bit of a hurdle where you, in your initial part of your career, you get a sense of conscious competence. You feel good about the things that you're good at. And then when you move into team leadership, or any form of leadership, you get hit with conscious incompetence, which is a real blow, it is a bit of a blow to the ego, because it's not about you anymore. But it's also realizing that, you know, crikey, I'm not as good at this. And it's gray. It's not, I can't write code for this. It's, it's a bit gray. But it's a, it's a. It's an enormous learning opportunity if you can immerse yourself into it, and go on that journey, I, that, that would be, I don't dunno what you think about that.
[00:16:07] Iain: Yeah, no, exactly. And I think, I think, um, I think I've been lucky in terms of, had lots of different experiences. So some of it is, is the experience, just different teams, different leaders, that side of it. Um, and if you moved around a lot, you, you kind of pick up more things and running remote teams and all that kinda stuff.
[00:16:24] Um, and then the last few years, and again, it's, as you evolve as a leader, then you can help your teams. I think my movement more from a kind of functional CIO to ,. A t bar exec leadership as your first team and your, your functional role as a second. And that's been a real good journey for me the last few years to, to actually make that change, to actually know how do we, my focus on how do I help run the business in my executive leadership role, and then similarly, how do I help my team, you know, again, move from more the, the kind of group of functional leaders to an enterprise team. So as I went through that journey, it's been really interesting to then help my own team's gonna go through that as well.
[00:17:04] Dan: could you just dive into that a bit in even more detail? You, you mentioned the T-bar, um, which I guess is the, the, with the, the, I think it's Morten, Morten Hansen or somewhere. I can't, I can't remember where that came from. But the, you've got this in this, just talk about this. You've got this cross team piece, haven't you, which is you sitting on the executive team and you've got, still got your vertical stick. Can you talk a bit about, just expand on that a bit, and how do you keep them in balance day to day?
[00:17:31] Iain: Yeah, and I, and I think, um, cause, because I think, you know, previously in my career, I just thought about, you know, my, my functional role in the vertical and I just need to be great in technology and the CO and that set and then set around the team. And in fact, initially some of the teams I was in was more teams of CIOs. As I switched to more, you're a CIO and a business executive team, that I started to realize, and initially I just played that functional role, but then I kinda realized, well, what, there's not much point in being here. If that's all, I'm gonna just do the tech stuff, you know? There's no point in sitting on the exec leadership role, so I made a real change, especially the last kind of four or five years, to actually know I need to lean into that and I need to contribute and understand the business and, and provide input and opinion and, and ask questions and, and really, um, change my perspective.
[00:18:20] It's a different, it is a different, um, focus. And it's not to, to throw away, you still wanna run the function well, but it's just, you know, I, I, I, when I enter that room, or, or when the team, my, my role is, is for the, for the leadership of the business and how can I help CEO and for our customers. And so it's that, that mindset switch was really kind of key for me, uh, yeah. You know, and, and, it's taken many years to kinda really one see it and then two do it.
[00:18:48] Dan: So, and how, how we hear a lot of leaders actually struggling to do that, and obviously your vertical role is quite comfortable, really in a way, because you are the expert in that, and so you can sort of sit there on that team. You know, knowledge is power. I know things that other people don't. Um, and actually venturing into that cross team mindset and understanding across the business and possibly even getting into, into other people's spaces. What would be your advice to those people who really struggle to make that move and sort of sit in that vertical space? It sounds like you've had a bit of a journey around this. What would your advice be looking back?
[00:19:24] Iain: Yeah, so I think there's a little bit of a reflection on where, where you are at versus the, the, the role you need to be in. And that was the, I realized I needed to be more cross of the T than the vertical. And also some of the, you know, there's some good learnings around, you know, that question around what, who's your first team, right? And switching between, 'cause 'cause if, if your first team is your functional team, you are never gonna make that step. And it's just, I, I find that a really good question of Yeah, actually my first team. 'cause, 'cause you'll hang on to that, right? 'Cause that's your comfort place. And then you kind of, if you change and then say, well actually no, my first team is the, is the team by the exec team or whatever, that, that's what really helped me. And there's some really, you know, there's, there's lots of good kind of readings and things around that, that change.
[00:20:07] But then also there's plenty things you can still apply because then it's still, the T team is still a team, right? So you can still then help. How do you help with the dynamics of that team and how do you help? You've gotta know each other. You've gotta, how do you make decisions? So on the flip side, actually, you can apply a lot of your, your, the skills you have learned just in a different way in terms of how you perform and, and in that team role. So that was the kind of the joining for me, those two aspects that really helped me, I think.
[00:20:36] Pia: And what are you seeing as some of the emerging skills that leaders in that, you know, the, at the the CIO team, the leadership team at that level, running the technology. What are some of the new leadership skills that they need to be applying as a team and also for their own teams?
[00:20:56] Iain: Yeah. Um, good question. And I think it's that, you know, I always try and think, understand what's the business strategy first? So, so, so think business first, um, customer. So all that kind of, before you think about your functional, and, you know, we've spent a lot of work around our business strategy. And so if you come in at that, that that's the level you have to approach it. And then how, how can I help and, and with my teams and my role deliver the business strategy. Sometimes that actually may not need a lot of technology. So it's really just, just kind of getting to that top level, uh, and always trying to start from that place.
[00:21:34] You know, you know, I, my my, my kind of mindset's changed over time of I'm not here to do tech stuff and, you know, it's more around how do I help the business deliver on the strategy, whether that's technology or otherwise. And then, and then similarly with your own team, just kind of, giving them that context, and having those conversations that helps them to kinda lift as well.
[00:21:55] Dan: And in, in terms of your, yeah, your, your sort of split of time. H how, how do you sort of keep an eye on that and, yeah, as a side question, um, probably by doing two jobs, I guess, but working 16 hours a day. But, um, as a side question, what, what, what's happening at the same time in your own team when you step up and, and, and sit at that, uh, t-bar level?
[00:22:18] Iain: Yeah, and it's tricky because as you do that and as you step more into that, it naturally means you have a bit less time in terms of your own team and your own function, and, and it really stretches you in terms of, um, have you given them enough support, you know, to be able to, to carry that load or, or, or, or what do they need? So, and again, that's been a bit of a journey type thing. And, and you know, you, you are two steps forward, one step back, so it's just kind of sitting in that space and sometimes you, you know, you'll, you'll lean more back into to your traditional role. So, but, you know, taking those kind of reflection points, but also being open with your team around what, where you are, what you're trying to do, and then, and, and what help do they need.
[00:22:59] And in actual fact, the more you can help them develop, uh, and the team dynamics, then the more you can step into the, to the broader role. But it's, again, it's a, it's always a, that's the, the challenge of these roles. But being open with 'em so that they understand that's what's really helped them in terms of what you're trying to do, um, but, but being there for the support that they need and the growth that they need.
[00:23:21] Pia: Knowing you, I think there's, uh, you, you've undergone some learning around the, the listening at another level and psychological safety. What, what part now does that play, and its role around accountability? You know, it sometimes these sort of field terms that, that may not necessarily sit comfortably in the tech world, but are actually that, that fu future looking are really, really important. So yeah, what, what's been your insight around that?
[00:23:49] Iain: Yeah. My, my, I guess, an insight for me over the last kind of 18 months was the dynamics of a performance versus a learning culture. Um, and if I thought back in my career, a lot of the bank and financial services was more of a performance based culture, it just often is. And, you know, some learnings that I, I was able to take some time out and, and do some kind of advanced management and, and really understanding actually the learning bit is the bit where you get the improvement, and you need to create some space for that. 'Cause if it's all performance based, you, you won't do it.
[00:24:24] But also the, how psychological safety plays into that. Um, if you don't pause and, and talk about the learnings, then actually it's not safe to do that. So you kind of, you need good psychological safety to be able to pick up the learning. So I've had a real focus on, with the team around, just changing the dial and some of the cultural things around understand the variation and explain the variance and still hold accountability, but what's the learnings that we take? And, and that's, it's taken time, but the, they've really responded well. And it just opens the door more onto to people to discuss, you know, 'cause that's actually where the gold is the, the, the what you've learned.
[00:25:05] And I, I also kinda, and I applied that, you know, when I looked at my own kinda leadership style, I realized I wasn't creating those spaces myself. So that was a really good kind of journey for me. And again, it's a, you know, there's no kind of, it's not a magic wand, but it's, you know, I now see the team talking about learnings and sharing learnings and it's a whole different dynamic and, and through that comes improvement. So, so there's a real benefit.
[00:25:30] Dan: How practically did you go about that?
[00:25:33] Iain: and, and again, like all these things, it's, it starts with yourself, right? So, so you kind of, you, you reflect on your own leadership style, what you say, what you do, what you resource and all that. And, and, and I realized, yeah, it was quite, it was performance based, which you, you need and you want, but there wasn't much focus on the learnings or creating space for that. So then I thought about how, okay, so how do I change in my style to, to make that happen? And, and obviously if I'm not talking about learnings or, or things, then no one else is gonna do that.
[00:26:01] Then you look at some of the cultural things and some of the meetings and, and, what's the focus? And we used to, you know, I used to have a focus on, you know, where's the red number greens and, and what's gone wrong and, and change even the language you use to actually know what's the variances and what have we learned?
[00:26:16] And what's interesting is that actually there was resistance. 'cause people don't like changing what they do. So even, even though I know this was the right thing, there was still resistance to, to do it. but you know, you, you work through that. So, yeah, and, and it's been really good. And, and then. As you do that, it actually opens up more of the psych safety and then people share more. And it's, it's, you know, it's been a really good journey. But yeah, it's that, start with yourself and, and again, there's, there's lots of good kind of readings and things that can help you, you through that.
[00:26:45] Pia: My observation of, of, of working with a lot of teams at this level is that the requirement is to think one level up, but the pressure of the work is pushing you one level down. So you're sort of, that's, that's where the messiness of this is because, you are in a context of, you know, deadlines, pressure, financial constraints, this, this, and resourcing actually, just even getting the right resourcing. But it is, it's a daily practice to try and get that enterprise mindset, even if you are forced into having to do some of the operational stuff.
[00:27:24] Iain: Yeah, no, exactly. And I think, you know, sometimes for me, I, I have to remember that in terms of my own team, in terms of the, it, it's the most tricky roles when you've got, you're still having to deal with some of the fires and stuff, and you're trying to stretch into that kind of enterprise perspective. So, yeah, so, and there's times when, you know, you, you, you can't do as much. Um, but, but it's, it's kind of keeping that context and awareness, but also kind of helping, helping yourself and your team through that. But yeah, it's, it's tricky. I think a lot of the roles these days, that's the, the challenge.
[00:27:55] Pia: So, what advice would you now give to somebody starting out? So, you know, looking down that career, like what, what advice would you be imparting given, given all the wisdom that you've now got?
[00:28:12] Iain: Yeah. And it's a tricky thing. You, you do reflect on that and, and yeah, if people had 25 years, then, then that's the journey, but it's kind of how can they do it a bit quicker, right?. I think you definitely need some opportunities and, and different experience that, that always helps, right. Um, it's part of your journey. I think. But there's lots of really good material learnings, but you've gotta find what resonates for you, right? And, and also how you learn. So and again, um, I mean, I, I quite like to read about stuff and, and, and, and learn from others. So you've gotta work out how you learn as well.
[00:28:44] And then I think it's also just, you know, you've gotta make that first step, you know, just don't be afraid to, to, to start trying things out as a leader. I did that from an early stage. I don't know, that may be more difficult for others, but, um, I mean, I was gonna thrown into some leadership roles and, and then just kind of, or I'll, I'll read some stuff and try some stuff.
[00:29:03] But you won't regret it because you, it's the trying and doing and, and, and actually usually if it doesn't work is when you get the most learning. So, so it's kind of that, apply stuff, try. And then also, you know, your, your best growth comes from feedback from your own team, from your, your peers and so on. And, and take it with the context, you know, 'cause sometimes you can take that feedback and think, oh, I'm, I'm doing everything wrong. You just, just say, okay. Right. I can do something a little bit better. Right. You just, you've gotta kind of keep that perspective of, it's not about being perfect, it's, it's actually just about getting that, getting, getting better. And you'll have good days and bad days and good weeks and bad weeks. But, but that kind of applying it, getting good learnings. Find what works for you.
[00:29:44] But also just, I think the fallback is with all this, especially these days, is the you know, wellbeing and just, just keeping a space for that, for whatever that means for you. Just because if you, it's easy to get sucked into work and, and all the stresses and things. And I think you, you know, for me, I do sport or family, that balance is also, and again, over time I've really learnt to just hold onto that.
[00:30:06] Pia: it's like agile methodology. It's like, you know. retro yourself. See what's, what's working, what's not working. Put an experiment out there, try something new. See the impact of that. And you, and, and that your leadership is an evolution. I think sometimes we think that it's a,, you do one thing and that's it, and it's set and forget. And, and, and it isn't, because the situation that you're in constantly changes. You are a human being that changes, and your people that are human beings also change. So you've gotta have that, gotta be adaptable and agile in the way that you lead.
[00:30:41] Iain: Yeah, exactly. And I think, and it, you know, and sometimes you, you may go six, 12 months, 18 months and actually nothing much changes. And that, that's just the way it works. It's not a constant progression, actually. And you, and sometimes you won't even see you're staying still until you move a bit forward. But it's okay. It's actually. That's just how it works.
[00:30:59] Dan: I was thinking your comment about if you've got 25 years, I was thinking if I look back 25 years, you know, the world of Tom Peters and all these, you know, the, the leadership development we were getting then is quite different and the world has changed dramatically and the leadership has sort of kept up with it, we hope. But if I, if I, I, I won't ask you the 25 year question, but you know, you've studied AI, you are in the heart of technology. If we fast forward 10 years, let's say, what is, what, what are leaders at the enterprise level going to have to be thinking about and what will leadership be like in that transformed world?
[00:31:33] Iain: Yeah, I mean, I, it's interesting, you know, It's amazing how much, you know, some of this generat AI you can actually use as kind of coaching and stuff. And, and I've used it and, and talked about it with my team, that there's some value there in terms of how that can help you, you know, if you give the right context, deal the situation, you know, And that's, uh, something that, that wasn't there, you know, a few years ago. So I think it's got a role to play for sure.
[00:31:56] It's an augmentation thing for me, as, as I always see it as that as opposed to AI taken over the world. But I think certainly the, the technology and, and what it can do, can, can help. And especially, you know, and there's been some studies and things and, and, you know, I do encourage my teams to, where, where there's no kind of sensitivity, um, see how it can help you with a situation or with a bit of learning and, and, um, you know, they're, they're well-trained systems. So I think that that's playing a role.
[00:32:23] I think ultimately though you, you know, you, you won't ever get away from we're people, we're humans and, and we make mistakes and with f and all that kinda stuff. And that they'll always, for me, be that human element and, and leadership to, to take care of and informing teams and, and some of the, the principles and fundamentals will always kinda stay. I think technology, like I say, will pay, play a greater, greater role, will help with that, uh, maybe allow us to do some things faster. But I think there'll always be this kind of core. And I think that the, the things you can learn there will always be put, put you in good stead.
[00:32:56] Dan: Thank you, Iain. And we're going to ask you to leave us with a, I dunno what to call this, don't wanna just call it a book recommendation 'cause it could be anything, a media recommendation. But, um, have you got, uh, what, what's your recommendation for, for the listener or something you've enjoyed or learned a great deal from?
[00:33:11] Iain: Yeah, and I'm, I'm, I'm not the best book reader and I, I, I tend to start about five and then not finish any, um, but I have been getting through a few and, and, um.
[00:33:20] But the one that I've really enjoyed, uh, and I must have got it here, and just getting to the end of is called same as Ever, and I think it's by Morgan Housel. And it's about, you know, what never changes in the world. And it's simple stuff, but it's actually kinda really insightful and, and I've just really enjoyed reading and reflecting and it's a really easy read. It's just little chapters at a time. Yeah, I Think really relevant for the, the time we're in now, and, and, and lots of things that you can, you can take and build in terms of the way you work or what you do. But yeah, I've really enjoyed that
[00:33:50] Dan: Great recommendation. Yeah, thank you. Sounds like quite, quite a reassuring thing in times of, times of great change. So yeah, we'll definitely, uh, those, uh, details will be in the show notes and I'm planning to have a, have a listen to that myself. So, um, thank you so much for leaving us with that, Iain, and thank you for being on the show today. It's been an absolute pleasure to have you here talk, tracking your journey and your, your learnings along the way.
[00:34:12] Iain: Yeah. No, thanks for having me. No, appreciate it.
[00:34:17] Pia: I really liked Ian's perspective around a performance, and I don't really even wanna say versus learning culture, but actually how a performance culture is not just on its own. It has to have, as he said, to create the space for, for a learning culture. Because otherwise your people are acting outta fear. Not necessarily out of curiosity or uh, motivation to do it better.
[00:34:43] Dan: Yes, indeed. And it's interesting that, it's fascinating, I think this way, it's sort of, if you, you obviously want performance. We need performance. That's, that's, you know, that's what we are here to do. It's, it's, it's great for the organization. It's, but it's great for employees as well, for, for our teams to, to achieve. But if you, it's fascinating if you go too focused on that. If you just go, let's perform, you are actually not dealing with the root causes of what can lead to to performance. So you've actually gotta sort of take it down a couple of notches and learning is clearly a crucial piece of that. And how you, you reflect and learn so you can do things better and therefore perform.
[00:35:27] And if you take it as another step down is how do you learn? You need psychological safety. And I think this is why in teams psychological safety sits in that foundational place because that's gonna help you to learn. That will help you to perform. It, it's a really logical ladder, but I don't, I think sometimes there's a danger, as you say, of sort of making it this versus that, or sort of are, we just focus on psychological safety and we hope we, you know, we don't really talk about performance numbers. You know, we, we come across teams like that who are very nice, but they just, they don't really deliver. So you've, you've really got to see that, uh, sort of, that chain reaction, if you like. I think about these things and, and, uh, cover, cover the waterfront.
[00:36:06] Pia: I think we can kid ourselves that, that a performance culture or a, a leading a performance outcome. It is a leadership thing. It's not, it's a management thing. 'Cause you, you, you're, you're managing, you're managing it to the numbers and then you're just trying to sometimes just kid yourself that, oh yeah, I'm leading. You're not. Because the leading part is actually seeing, okay, we've got humans involved in here. You're gonna make some mistakes. Humans don't always evolve at the same pace as we would like. And they are also facing an onslaught of changes and challenges and as well as opportunities. So the learning side is something where I think it's more inclusive, it's more participative, but it requires a little bit of patience for the longer game. It's not a quick fire stuff.
[00:36:51] So that doesn't mean you take your foot off the performance pedal, but it's just a different, different way of seeing the human capital really that potential that you've got.
[00:37:00] Dan: Yeah. It's a little bit like an athlete, isn't it? The race day is great, but actually there's a, just a massive pyramid of, training and mental health, you know, all, everything behind that. And, you know, sports psychology behind that, that day, that, that needs to be put in place.
[00:37:15] I thought the other, the other one that, um, Iain mentioned is about this, you know, this, this enterprise mindset. And we see a lot of top teams, which are themselves, they're sort of, they're inevitably cross-functional teams, aren't they? They are actually, 'cause they've got people from different functions and they can be highly verticalized. And they're not actually teams. They are teams in name only. And that piece that Ian, I. Has done a lot of work on and was very eloquent on, was around having that enterprise mindset, because I've now got this t piece. This is really job one, and as he said, that sort of first team. And, um, we'll put a link to the first team video by Patrick Lencioni in the show notes. But that's. it says everything about the fact that you have to see that as the first team, because if it's your second team, the, the organization won't be led effectively in a cross-functional way. And the, the organization's split right at the top.
[00:38:08] Pia: You lead your people to take part in bloody and unwinnable battles. Quote Patrick
[00:38:15] Dan: such a great quote honestly, that Lencioni video.
[00:38:17] Pia: I know you like to be called Pat. Pat, that that was a winner. That was a winner. I
[00:38:22] Dan: pat, that was an absolute corker. And um, it just stays with you, doesn't it? And it's, it's, it's only three minutes, but I do think it's one of the best three minutes of any, anything I've seen on leadership and teams so well worth a look. It's in the show notes.
[00:38:36] Uh, but that is it for today's show. Uh, thank you so much for listening. You can find show notes as we just mentioned, where you are listening, but also at squadify.net. If you've enjoyed the show, please share the love and recommend it to your friends. And if you'd like to contribute to the show, you can just email us at wenotmepod@gmail.com. We Not Me is produced by the marvelous Mark. Steadman. Thank you so much for listening. It's goodbye from me.
[00:39:00] Pia: And it's goodbye from me.