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In this CATChat episode, Krysia and Zoe talk about the new Wicked film! Please note that this episode may include spoilers but we have tried our best to avoid giving too much away.
The transcript of the episode is available here: https://share.transistor.fm/s/e2bc2048/transcript.txt
The transcript of the episode is available here: https://share.transistor.fm/s/e2bc2048/transcript.txt
If you have any questions, or just want to say hi, email us at cat@abdn.ac.uk or find us on twitter @autismtheology.
This podcast is brought to you by The University of Aberdeen's Centre for Autism and Theology.
The artwork for this podcast uses the Centre for Autism and Theology Logo, created by Holly Russel
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What is Autism and Theology Podcast?
The Autism and Theology Podcast is a space where we engage with the latest conversations in the field of autism and theology, share relevant resources, and promote ways in which both faith and non-faith communities can enable autistic people to flourish.
Our episodes are released on the first Wednesday of every month. We have a variety of guests who are related in some way to the field of autism and theology. Some are academics, others are people with life stories to share, and some are both!
We also release CATChat every third Wednesday of the month. These are shorter and more informal episodes where your hosts will share news and give you as listeners an opportunity to ask questions and share your stories.
Welcome to the Autism and Theology podcast, brought to you by the Center for Autism and Theology at the University of Aberdeen.
Krysia: Hello and welcome to this episode of Cat Chat, part of the Autism and Theology podcast. I'm Krisha and it's great to have you with us this week. This podcast is a space where we engage with the latest conversations in the field of autism and theology, sharing relevant resources and promoting ways that help faith and non faith communities enable autistic people to flourish.
The podcast is run from the University of Aberdeen's Centre for Autism and Theology, which we've shortened to CAT. If you would like to access the transcript for this episode, it can be found via the link in the show notes. On today's Cat Chat episode, Zoe and I are going to have a really topical discussion about a film we've both seen recently and we both really enjoyed.
It's going to be slightly different to what we've done previously on Cat Chat, but we felt there was so much to say that was actually relevant to the work that we do in religious studies, practical theology, and also its relevance to the field of autism and theology as a whole. So we're going to have a chat about the film Wicked, which has just come out in the cinema.
Zoe: Yeah, I'm so excited about this. Um, it was kind of a last minute. We were like, should we chat about this? And decided just to go for it. Um, I think for me, as soon as the film finished, I was just like, is Elphaba every practical theologian? Um, like just, The way that she identifies needs out of her own experience of being excluded as well, and she identified the needs of people and doesn't want to go with what society is telling her she should do, but fights for people and yeah, it just, I've been thinking about that ever since, like, yeah, how much that resonated with me and what I see in the field of practical theology.
Krysia: Definitely. And what I said to Zoe just before we did this recording, this is really uncanny and really relates really well to our conversation. So in my kind of last couple of months at six form, there was someone in our year who was really good at graphic design, and they went round the Incarnate cohort and drew everybody into a character that they wanted.
And the character that I asked. her to draw me as, was Elphaba, and I believe I still have this either saved on a computer or my Facebook profile somewhere. Um, and I think the reason I felt such, that that would be such a good fit for me, was all the reasons that Zoe's explaining. Perhaps, Why Elphaba is actually a really good practical theologian in the fact that I always felt certainly as an autistic person in a mainstream six form.
I just didn't fit in. I didn't necessarily follow the crowd. I didn't, you know, I did things because I wanted to and because it was right rather than just doing things because everyone else did them. And I've seen Wicked on stage. It must have been about a year or two beforehand and I just saw this connection with that, those values are like my values as well.
Zoe: Yeah, and it is so interesting, like, that kind of, as we've discussed, like, Elphaba, as far as we're aware, doesn't seem to be an autistic coded character, we're not trying to say that she is, but just that experience resonates so much with the autistic and neurodivergent experience
Krysia: and I guess one thing that is really interesting when we think about practical theology is actually practical theology is for everybody. And I think that's one thing that's actually going to come out really kind of strongly throughout our discussion today is obviously I'm not necessarily a practical theologian by training.
My first degree was in languages. I then went into autism research and then I found a nice home within religious studies research. I certainly talked to a lot of, uh, practical theology because that's where all my, a lot of my colleagues are. Um, but I think it kind of says that you can, you don't have to have the training to be it and for you to have that, that moral imperative.
And I think it also calls for practical theologians to have more of that. moral imperative as well.
Zoe: Yeah, it's that like call of a practical theologian to see something that is not right and fight to change it and yeah that happens within the context of practical theology but it does need to happen more like it is something that um when when you're the one who's kind of saying like this needs to change this isn't okay
yeah, I think you're so right. There is a need for more of that in practical theology. Um, you know, there's such a trend at the moment of when we see it in disability research, autism research, there is this trend in practical theology of finding those marginalized groups or marginalized groups coming into the spaces and saying actually work needs to be done on this.
We need to be asking these difficult questions, even the questions that a lot of churches maybe don't want. People asking, um, you know, in Wicked, there's the scene, um, we'll try not to give away too many spoilers I guess, but um, there's, if you've not seen it maybe pause right now, skip a few seconds, but there's a scene where they're in the classroom and um, the goat, I can't remember his name now, is getting dragged out and everyone's just silent and Elphaba's like, why are you not saying something?
And it does speak into what often happens in the church. Like, we don't want things to disrupt our idea of what the norm is and how structures should be. We don't want that disrupted. We want easy and We just sometimes go along with what we're told is right, and don't question it, because we like that comfort of just being quiet, and that isn't what we should be doing as Christians or as practical theologians.
Krysia: Yeah, and I think, when I think of, kind of, but kind of the moral imperative and doing what's right. I think sometimes we do just sit there and don't do anything, even because we don't know what to do. And, you know, in a time, in a way, that's almost a time for us to listen so that we can act or because we don't want to be in that uncomfortable position.
Um, and I think part of the territory territory of being a practical theologian is actually perhaps slightly pushing back against the pastoral model of disability and the kind of care and speaking over, but almost in terms of giving agency and enabling agency as part of it.
Zoe: Yeah, and even that's in the film, like Elphaba's sister, I'm so bad with names, but Elphaba's sister and there's, people are trying to speak for her, move her against her will, and Elphaba gets so mad and it's like, no, we're not doing things for her.
And that, what is it they keep calling her, like, tragically beautiful, um, like that is seen in the film with people looking down and doing things for disabled people rather than letting people speak for themselves.
Krysia: Yeah, and I think also it also challenges the positions that we have as academics in terms of how much can we speak for other people?
Is our job to acknowledge, create so that we can enable other people to then hold that beacon themselves? Or are we speaking on behalf of people when we do our research? And I think that's almost a very fine line that a lot of us are walking off at the time. And I think that You know, a lot of us do want to include and make sure that what we're doing is relevant to, and
seen as right by the communities we're working with. Um, but we're not, sometimes we can, we can end up in a bit of a, a bit of a pickle when there's loads of people all saying slightly different things and we don't know kind of what, what to do.
Zoe: Yeah, exactly. And there's kind of one way to approach that is, again, what we see with um, oh, what's his name?
The guy from Bridgerton.
Krysia: Don't know. I don't watch Bridgerton.
Zoe: Oh. Um, right, let me Google this quickly. Um, I'm terrible with names. Um, Jonathan Bailey? Yeah, so Jonathan Bailey, who plays Fiyero, the prince who's Galinda's and Elphaba's love interest. And the whole thing around him, knowing the whole song about like dancing through life and not thinking too deeply about things and then Elphaba calls it out like you do actually care you do think deeply you just want to you try so hard to pretend you don't um and I think that it can also go the other way right where we don't even bother speaking for people because it's just easier to pretend that we don't care pretend everything's fine and that's also dangerous as well
Krysia: Yeah, or to say that people are doing what they're doing because they're doing their job rather than challenging the injustice and
challenging what isn't fundamentally right
as well,
especially if certainly as someone who is autistic and has been spoken over multiple times throughout my life and sometimes gets told, well, people do that because it's their job to do that. Are you really sure? And it's almost that, We need to stand up against those, those power dynamics which silence people.
Yeah. Um, and I think when we think of kind of the relevance of Practic being a practical theologian, um, with Wicked and how it's not. obviously you've got the things around popularity and, um, being perfect and looking a certain way, especially kind of in the kind of in, in the school parts of the film.
Zoe: Um,
Krysia: and also parts of the Emerald City as well about not, not standing, kind of, you can go, you can have that nice time in the city, but when you're asked to do something, you realize you're being used for a slightly nefarious.
role. Yeah. You know, you just go along with it because, because what we know you can't really say anything. I think that's when that's almost our responsibility as practical theologians, as academics, as people who work in the field of autism theology. Now, by de facto, we are therefore working with autistic people, whether we're We're talking to people or we're doing more book work.
Therefore, we do have a moral imperative to listen to autistic people and to support the causes that autistic people actually are not fighting against a lot of the time and a lot of the systemic injustice as well.
Zoe: Yeah, absolutely. And it's It's thinking of power dynamics in what you're saying as well, like again we look at the film and Elphaba is someone who's experienced rejection and she goes and sees the wizard and feels acceptance even though it's not real acceptance and that's how she ends up casting the spell that actually causes harm and then ending up in the whole situation and it is that power dynamic of like luring someone in by making them think that they're cared for and that they're understood on a level that they've never been understood before.
And that's such a helpful thing to remember as researchers as well and as pastoral people or practitioners or whatever other situation we're in when we are at the top of the, or the higher end of the power dynamic, like how we actually, we have influence over people and how welcome they feel and how, um, how much they feel that they belong and are understood.
And we can't misuse that and take advantage of people. And I'm not saying that, you know, Um, anyone's like dying through this or whatever it is so easy to take advantage of people and Yeah, it's important that we're not doing that.
Krysia: And I guess the thing that I would almost add to that is that Research as a, as a landscape is really power laden as well.
So even if we don't think there are these power dynamics at play, they kind of hide and they manifest in little holes. And I think that it's the same with the church as well, certainly in churches I've attended in the past. There are kind of groups of people that hold more of the stake of how the services run or what we might want to do when the coffee machine runs out or what volume the music might be and how complex the, the sound deck is.
There's going to be people who hold those keys and who hold those power bits, even if we, it should be. And I guess this is. Where it relates back to my work, inclusion should be everybody's responsibility. That's what one of my participants said. But the actual reality is that people like to, um, give certain people roles and it's the event, the power that come with those roles.
We give people, um, set jobs or set roles on their specialist knowledge or their background or to use kind of. or Christian language, they're gifts as well, and I think sometimes in church settings we don't necessarily look at that power landscape, and that's not to say we shouldn't give people roles, because we should, because roles are really useful because then we know what we're doing and then things get done, and otherwise the church sometimes doesn't always get things done.
Yeah, been in churches, people can sit around going, I don't know how many people it takes to screw in a light bulb. We do need to change that light bulb, but we also need to be aware of that part of the, of the landscape and what that means for people in our churches, notably neurodivergent people and other marginalized groups as well.
Zoe: Yeah, absolutely. And it's cultivating spaces where those questions can be asked and that's okay and that's accepted and it's, yeah, cultures where it's okay to challenge and interrogate the structures and power dynamics that are going on is so important.
Krysia: I guess that's why I'd see everybody as a practical theologian.
Zoe: Yeah.
Krysia: Because we all have that responsibility in a way, even if we're not academics, even if we're not researchers, even if we're not clergy, ministers, have certain roles in the, in the faith communities we attend. We all have some sort of, you know, responsibility. Something we bring to the communities that we go to, or to the people we talk to, and the groups we attend, and there's always some sort of, somewhere we fit into that kind of, I don't like to say hierarchy, because that's obviously not what the
church
is supposed to be, but into the dynamic and the layering of everybody entwined all together.
Zoe: Yeah, and kind of like picking up on what you said about that, like, everyone having the responsibility. Everyone being a practical theologian as well, like, everyone has that, if you're going to a church and attending a church, you do have that responsibility to question what's going on and it is the responsibility of everyone to do that role of making sure that a church is a place that enables flourishing and participation and the life of, um, the faith life of Christians and a relationship with God, however that might look. And that is everyone's responsibility.
Um, yeah, and it's, I guess that just shows how problematic it is when people don't. Accept that responsibility and when people turn away and don't help and don't try and make things better, um, because it's
Krysia: Yeah, and I guess that's why I think we all need to be a bit more Elphaba. We might not be able to all be able to do what Elphaba did in the film without giving any spoilers.
We can't all go and have the, perhaps the confidence, even though I don't necessarily think she was always that confident in what she was doing. I don't think we can always have the words. I know I really struggle with the words a lot of the time. A lot of the time I have the action and the gut and no words.
because of the processing that I have. But we can all have a little bit more alphabet in how we perhaps do things in church settings and that might perhaps lead to little sparks of, you know, change within the church. Yeah, absolutely. And also within the academy as well I dare to say. And like, um,
Zoe: not to say that there's like, as we've kind of touched on this, but not not say that every way that people have experienced trauma or have suffered is, um, there's good in it all because I don't think that's always helpful to be like overly optimistic.
But I think something that has come out so strongly in my research, and I'm sure in yours as well, is this. need that a lot of my participants had to look out for other people and to make things better for other people because they had experienced, um, exclusion and marginalization themselves, and they knew what it felt like to be mistreated or talked down to, and they so desperately didn't want that for other people.
And I think, as much as I'm not saying it's okay what neurodivergent people often go through, there is that level of it, like, how can this be then used to change things? Like, how can we channel that sense of injustice into seeking justice more widely? Um, and yeah,
Krysia: because the problem is when we, that doesn't stop and that becomes a generational trauma pass down
rather
than a one time stop.
It's kind of a one time stop. We're like, Oh, we've got, you know, there's something here we need to really address in how we do church and how we, um, engage with Bible study and how we, include people in how people might move around churches, if they're moving or
how they
might be clergy. It's the fact that I think the thing that's problematic for me is the fact that it's just keep coming, it pops up and up and up and up and it doesn't get dealt with.
Um, and then it gets to, then it's seen as, Oh, it's part of your story rather than actually this justice is saying to set the problem should, the buck should stop here at this point rather than five miles down the road.
Zoe: Yeah. And it's enabling people to do that, to speak up, And I think it can be hard to be the person to take on that responsibility and actually say, like, no, this needs to stop here.
Like, that is difficult. That's not easy. And that's where it's so important to form communities as well. And, um, things like the Centre for Autism Theology, a space where it's, like, through the conversations we have, hopefully, It shows that there are people working there. It's not just isolated individuals trying to make things better.
There are groups of people that, um, we can work together and encourage each other.
Krysia: Yeah, and I think certainly with the conversations I had with the people to apply my research. They might position themselves slightly toward the outside of churches or they might go to kind of home groups or dip in and out of online communities as a way of kind of finding something that fits for them and closer to what's best for their needs as a neurodivergent person, but also where they can have more of that.
Hang on a minute. I'm going to be a bit more Elphaba here because there is the support for them to advocate for themselves.
Zoe: Yeah, absolutely. There's so much to this. I think we've run out of time, but, um, yeah, we would love to hear your thoughts on.
Um, yeah, Wicked and Autism and Practical Theology, and yeah, what your thoughts are on this. This has been so fun to discuss,
I guess this has been a really fun encouragement of how also I guess this has also been a fun encouragement of how powerful film, I wonder how many people maybe have questioned some power dynamics that are going on in society through watching Wicked.
Um, how many people have felt like empowered to, um, defy gravity. Yeah. But yeah, like, how many people have been empowered to actually say like, No, this is not okay, um, how many, like, children will maybe now have seen something that's empowering them to stand up for what's right, um, and that's pretty cool, and I think that's a real encouragement.
If you've not seen Wicked, What are you doing? Go and see it. Yeah, definitely. But yeah, um, thank you so much for listening and yeah, we'll be back in January in the new year with a new episode for you. We hope you all have a lovely holiday period and a happy new year.
Thank you for listening to the Autism and Theology podcast. If you have any questions for us, or just want to say hi, we'd love to Please email us at cat at abdn. ac. uk or find us on Twitter at Autism Theology.