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We interview a friend who is a medical doctor who previously had not studied trauma, but attended the ISSTD virtual conference with us. She shares what this experience was like for her, what she learned, and how it has changed her practice with patients.
Diagnosed with Complex Trauma and a Dissociative Disorder, Emma and her system share what they learn along the way about complex trauma, dissociation (CPTSD, OSDD, DID, Dissociative Identity Disorder (Multiple Personality), etc.), and mental health. Educational, supportive, inclusive, and inspiring, System Speak documents her healing journey through the best and worst of life in recovery through insights, conversations, and collaborations.
Over:
Speaker 2:Welcome to the System Speak Podcast, a podcast about Dissociative Identity Disorder. If you are new to the podcast, we recommend starting at the beginning episodes and listen in order to hear our story and what we have learned through this endeavor. Current episodes may be more applicable to longtime listeners and are likely to contain more advanced topics, emotional or other triggering content, and or reference earlier episodes that provide more context to what we are currently learning and experiencing. As always, please care for yourself during and after listening to the podcast. Thank you.
Speaker 2:There is so much to talk about, so let's get started. What I want to explain first is that you are my friend in real life, and we were supposed to meet at the ISSTD conference in California, and we couldn't because of the whole coronavirus. And then the one piece that I've not really talked about a lot on the podcast, which we don't have to spend the whole time talking about, but it is true also that you are a doctor in real life, so different than a therapist, but I got sick after the trip of California, and you were so kind to talk me through it.
Speaker 1:Oh, I hardly did anything. You you you were so good about you knew exactly what to do. You were just needing reassurance.
Speaker 2:Well, you were. I just wanna say again, I appreciate it because we've not talked a lot on the podcast. We've not talked about having gotten the virus and how sick we were. And we obviously had a mild case. We were able to stay in the hotel in quarantine.
Speaker 2:We were not hospitalized or put on a ventilator or anything like that, which they were kind of expecting because we've had lung issues in the past. But we made it through okay. But the fevers were awful, and you made sure that I was drinking and that I was getting my fevers checked and that I was awake and alive. And I just wanna say, I appreciate that.
Speaker 1:Oh you're so kind.
Speaker 2:You're so brave. I invited you to talk on the podcast because as a medical professional you have such a different perspective than just only a therapist or just only a survivor like me and so I loved your take as we were talking about the things that we learned. And at the day of recording this, the first of those episodes have started going up. So the listeners have already heard some of what I've shared, and I just wanna go through with what your experience was like.
Speaker 1:Oh, it was so amazing. Was it It was so amazing.
Speaker 2:Was it what you expected? Was it what you needed? What was that like for you as a medical doctor?
Speaker 1:Well, so it's hard because as a medical doctor, our conferences are so different. And, I mean, that's I guess, it's the focus is so different, and I it I've never been to anything like this before. So the experience was very it was so beautiful. I have never been surrounded. I mean, I know it was virtual, but I felt I was surrounded by so many people that truly love humans and are so caring and compassionate, and they they truly care, in a way that you know that they're not compensated for.
Speaker 1:You know, this is coming from the heart. And, I don't mean to say that my profession is not you know, there's not people that have, the caring and compassion because there are. But I think that sometimes, in our profession, we, get so caught up in the science and in the the the rush of trying to meet all of the needs of the administration that we we forget to be human. And, I I again, I'm very much generalizing. I'm not trying to to to attack my own at all, But, it was just beautiful to be in a conference where everybody's goal was to help raise an awareness of how to meet with the people where they are.
Speaker 1:And they there there was a nice abridgment of science and and humanistic qualities. And it was just something that I have never I just have never experienced. It was really, really amazing. I think it would have been even better in person, but I I will take it I will take however we could get it given the circumstances. Right?
Speaker 1:So, yes, it was just it was amazing. I'm actually considering joining the ISSTD even though I I feel kind of like a fish out of water because I have I don't have a lot of knowledge or background, that I think would have made understanding what was happening in the conference a little bit, easier. But I will tell you, it was amazing how there were many lecturers that took time to give the background so that I could it took me a little bit to listen. It's been wonderful because the ISSTD I don't know if you've done this, guys, but, the the the ISSTD will allow us to look at those those recordings again. And I have taken time to do that because, on the second or third pass, I have really been able to connect some dots that I just never had even been able to do.
Speaker 1:I wouldn't have been able to do it on the first time for sure. And for somebody who has not trained at all in behavioral health, it was very useful to be able to go back and re listen to those recordings. It was very powerful. So
Speaker 2:That's that's exactly true, and that's been my experience too. And I think that what you shared is so important for several reasons. One, when we say ISSTD or we talk about ISSTD, so often survivors or other clinicians are just thinking like some entity that's out there somewhere. And that's why we've been talking on the podcast since this conference of please know and understand that these are real people who love survivors. Some of them have their own lived experience and their their heart is in caring for people and helping people be fully themselves.
Speaker 2:And I think that's so so important because conversation as a community so often focuses on what's wrong with clinicians or what clinicians are not doing right or the trauma experiences we have when that happens, all of which are valid. All of that is valid. So I'm not minimizing that at all. But these people, the ones I have met and the ones who presented and the ones I have gotten to know over the last three years through the podcast are incredible, incredible humans, and they care so, so much.
Speaker 1:Yes. I was just dumbfounded, honestly, guys. I just I had not any idea. I mean, I know that just in my work with, you know, limited you know, working with therapists to help my patients, I have noticed that in general, you know, it's a it's a different mentality. It's amazing because what a therapist will do to try to help coordinate care.
Speaker 1:I mean, they're not getting paid for that time, but they're trying to coordinate the care. And they're going above and beyond to try to make sure their patient you know, I guess, our patients, get the good care they get. So I've known for a long time that therapists really are, at least my experience, have have been genuine and kind in trying to help their their their patients. But, I just have never seen it. I guess I guess part of it is it was in a it was not in the context of a individual.
Speaker 1:It was we were in a conference where conference where these people were talking about general a general group of people as a whole, like anybody who walks into their office. They had the ability to really show what may be going on for that person in any given time and that there was such an understanding, and it was done so gently. And some people I mean, there was just one talk for for example, that just blew me out of the water. It was it was amazing. It was and.
Speaker 1:It was about attackment. Yeah. And they talked about some really oh, yeah. It's and and And they talked about some really hard stuff that had been talked about in previous lectures. But there was something about maybe it was because it was at the end of the conference, and so I had had time to kind of process some things.
Speaker 1:But it was amazing how kind and gentle and humanistic. And they talked about some very scientific principles, but it was done in such a gentleness. And, they gave real life examples, of course, keeping you know, there was very it was very general. There was no details given. I mean, they were very respectful to the people that they had helped, but they, they gave some real life examples of how what their true feelings were about the situation and, and how you could just see in their example how they were just so real.
Speaker 1:I guess that's the big thing is it was just so real how they truly loved their patients. They wanted the best for them. And, they even though they were struggling in the the process of helping this person, they it wasn't I guess I guess part of it is I need to get background. So, like, in medicine, you know, it's it's interesting because I the way at least the way I have been taught is, you know, there are some people that, that have taught me in my in my clinicals that, you know, well, it's just a form of manipulation or it's just the person is acting out or it's just a very shaming way of approaching struggling. And that was not even in that was just there was none of that in this lecture.
Speaker 1:Even though they were talking about very difficult, interactions with patients, they they it was all about this person was really hurting, and this is what happened, and this was my reaction to that person. And and it really was it was an awful experience, but and this is how it was so cool. Doctor. Shevitz was like, and this is really cool because you work through it. It's it's a really hard thing, but part of the therapeutic process is not only just for the patient, but the actual provider gets to work through it with the the patient.
Speaker 1:So but it was just it really hit home to me that this isn't about shaming someone and nobody's bad and and, a lot of the behaviors that are problem is you know, problematic in our in our everyday experience as clinicians. I'm speaking in the I guess for everybody is that it it's not that these people are bad. They're truly hurting. And in in trying to join in with them and be genuine and, understanding, you can actually do a lot of healing just because of those those, the ability to have that attachment, and to have attunement. And I never really I mean, I've listened to your podcast, and I've learned a lot about it, but this conference has really helped solidify how healing attunement can be.
Speaker 1:And so, anyway, that's I that lecture really just took the cake for me. It really pulled a lot of things together and just the humanistic and gentleness of the approach of the clinicians that spoke really, really taught me a lot.
Speaker 2:Part of what is powerful to me is that it's because it's congruent with who they are. And Christine Forner, when she presented hers and is there in the presentation giving that information. She is the same person when I'm interviewing her on the podcast or saw her in California. And the the authenticity of who these people are is part of what gives it that level of realness and that depth of not just attunement, but the safety because they're really who they say they are and they live and practice what they're teaching. And I think that's part of what makes such a difference as well as what you're saying humanistic, you mean focused on the person as a person.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Right. Yes. Right. Absolutely. I think in medicine, and again, I feel bad because I don't wanna say that, you know, all doctors are like this or but I think and I will definitely say that there is more and more being taught in medical school and residencies about treating the whole person, the body, mind, and spirit.
Speaker 1:And there's a lot more focus on that. I mean, that's one of the reasons of how I chose my profession and where I ended up going to school and such. But it's just I think the the nuts and bolts of where our foundation is in medicine, it boils down to symptoms and diagnostics and all of that is very important. It's all important to focus in on evidence based medicine and that sort of thing. I totally agree with it and that's how I practice.
Speaker 1:But when that focus is all that there is and there is not a well balance of the human quality, and I think there's a lot lost there. And so this conference has really helped solidify that in my mind and will hopefully make me a better clinician for it.
Speaker 2:Well, and I think that's so powerful. It's so, so powerful. We worked in hospitals for years as the behavioral health person in the ER and running to do consultations on the floor. And so I know exactly what you're talking about as far as, like, we would literally get a message or, like, getting paged, like, it's nineteen eighty five. Right?
Speaker 2:So carrying pages around. And get a page that says, you know, someone with DID someone who says they have DID in triage three, run down there and deal with it and get them out of here. Or we will have someone on the floor with pseudo seizures. Go see why they're lying about this. Like, literally not understanding the trauma at all.
Speaker 1:No. No. There's no see, I think this is this is it is it's a validation thing. I think there is a lot of fear. And, again, I am speaking only in my own experience, with my own colleagues and my own people that I've met through the years in my in my field.
Speaker 1:I think there's a lot of fear, and it's because they don't know how to deal with it. They've never been trained on how to deal with it. Right. They they're just afraid of it. And if they can't give a pill or they can't offer a solution, they it just it creates a lot of conflict within them.
Speaker 1:So it's easier to just say this person's being difficult, get them out of my face, which I know that sounds so awful, but it's what happens. You know? Yeah. I think I think that's it's just it's the it's a culture, due to people not having an understanding and feeling very unable to really help. And, you know, I think at the heart of it, all and I shouldn't say all, but most of us go into medicine because we want to help.
Speaker 1:We want to we want to heal. We want to, be able to help somebody's life be a little better. We want you know, there's all of this, you know, there's all these expectations we put on ourselves when we go into this field. And, again, I get it. I know there are doctors out there that don't feel this way.
Speaker 1:But for the most part, there is most of us who want to go out and and help people. And when you can't, because you don't have the skills or the understanding or the medicine to to to help this person, it it throws you off kilter because, unfortunately, I think in the culture of medicine, most of us feel that if we have not made things a little better I mean, even in my work in hospice, even though I can't say that my patients survived, I was able to offer them something. I was able to give them a better life at the very end. There was something that I could offer them and make their life a little better. And when you don't have any knowledge of trauma and you don't you don't you're basically your training has been focused on these people are just manipulating you, get them out of your your presence.
Speaker 1:And not that that's that's always the case. I oh, I could get myself in trouble here. But but I think that in general, in training, when difficult scenarios arise, that's the answer we were given when we didn't have an answer. And, and I just think that there's just a lack of understanding, which is why I think the ISTD is such an amazingly ly powerful organization if we can get the word out to those people. And then, unfortunately, you know, in my field, we also have this whole duality of pressures.
Speaker 1:You insurance companies kind of drive where doctors can put their time and their energy, and there's a drive that you have to see so many patients, and you can't spend much time with them because then you're penalized. And, you, you have you know, because insurance companies and hospitals, in order to stay home open, the hospital has to get a certain amount of income. I mean, it's just we could get into finances, and that's not where we need to go. That's a whole another podcast. But, but it's just I think you you the problem I would have with some of my colleagues is saying we need to go to this conference to learn about trauma and how to become how to be able to be present with the patient and give them what they truly need.
Speaker 1:The first thing you would hear is, well, we don't have time for that. And I think that, especially in the world of addiction medicine, which, by the way, we went to an amazing workshop on Friday about addiction. It I think it would be so helpful, maybe to condense it, maybe to make it, like, bullet points because, you know, physicians you guys this conference was, like, way more like, we are not used to we are not we're used to bullet points. And, there was so much of this freestanding and interaction and and, again, more humanistic, more, less let more gray, less black and white. And so, I think with physicians, you would probably need to bullet point it and be a little bit more concise, show show some evidence of how do I put this into practice in a primary care office?
Speaker 1:How do I put this in practice when I'm doing a as a hospitalist? How do I do this diffuse the situation, help the person, regulate. I mean, all of these things, I think, would be very helpful. But getting the buy in for a physician who is pulled in so many different directions, by their organization or their practice or finances or whatever, is the I think gonna be the biggest challenge. But I know for me, I've always had an interest in how I can really really connect to my patients.
Speaker 1:I really did not have much understanding of trauma or anything of the like, but I always was very curious about patients that nobody really understood why they had the issue. I could see a pattern. I could see I'm giving, like, an example would be fibromyalgia. I could see a pattern. I could see, how different modalities would really help the person, but the medical explanation for it was just not there.
Speaker 1:And what I learned was all of these missing pieces to that puzzle at the conference. And, I just think it would it would really it would really help if we could open open the eyes of the medical community a bit, to to looking at this at this different version of why people are acting the way they are. And it's not a it's not a shame thing. It's not that they are acting out or manipulating or trying to cause trouble or trying to get attention or whatever it is. It is they are truly hurting, and they need they need to be validated.
Speaker 1:They need to be they need to have that attunement or any medicine you threat them is not going to help.
Speaker 2:When you talk about joining the ISSTD, the experience of that is not just like membership to a society or to a professional organization, but the classes and trainings they offer, every one of them is very similar to this conference.
Speaker 1:Oh, wow.
Speaker 2:All of it, really what it comes down to is that we are clinicians who are used to being present with another in the room and processing with them. Presentations are very often so conversational. And yes, there's information they're giving and yes, there's teaching happening, but especially when it's in person, but also in the teleseminars and the trainings that are online, there's so much information that is packed through. But instead of just only the bullet points, it comes through the experience of the process process itself, almost like a meta narrative of therapy. It's fascinating.
Speaker 1:It is. I was just shocked. Like, some of the the examples that the clinicians, gave, Like, for instance, during Pat Ogden's discussion, she gave specific, examples of how it happened in therapy and what that has looked out looked like for her and, the type you know, just it was amazing, absolutely amazing, of how powerful that is is to give an example of it actually happening right there and then, you know, and what that looks like while you're in the process. Because that gives you a better understanding, I would say, for me anyway, when I have her describe that, I was able to reflect on my own experience and then be able to say, okay. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I I've seen that. I've seen something similar to that. I didn't recognize what I was seeing, but I could almost put myself in a clinical setting and and experience that just through my past experience. I don't know if that makes any sense. But
Speaker 2:It does. It's and I think what you can do is join ISSTD and go through the trainings and learn these things, and then you can translate them for other doctors, and you can train
Speaker 1:Yeah. I I yeah. That is a good point. I I have a I have a heart cell where I I I hate to be that way, but there are so many good hearted men and women out there that are just so overwhelmed with their own work and what they're doing, and and I get it. And they're brilliant people.
Speaker 1:Brilliant. But they oh, yes.
Speaker 2:It makes a difference when a doctor gets it though. I know that so many survivors experience the medical world not just because of crises in the ER with mental health but also because it does so impact us neurologically and so physical symptoms do show up and so I know that that's a common thread in the community about what their interactions with their doctors are like but even just speaking from my experiences with my daughter, for example, it changes everything when a doctor understands or can just be present with you in how hard something is or how difficult something is and not just trying to fix it or make it better or take it away or stop it or blame you for causing it or you know, it's such a different approach like what you were talking about with humans. It just it makes all the difference in the world. Because I think of the things that I
Speaker 1:I was so blessed to have so many good clinicians who taught me about, being with a person. I mean, I talk about the people who taught me things that I don't wanna be like, but there are people who taught me some really good things about there are times in medicine where you can't it is not your place to fix it. There are times in medicine that you need to respect the body and allow the body to do its thing. You know, especially my work in hospice. I love my hospice work.
Speaker 1:It was it was important to be able to acknowledge that fixing it does not mean making the disease go away or performing some magical spell. You know, that just doesn't happen. And, you know, you want to, but that's that's just not your place. It's not it's not your your part of healing there is being present with the person and allowing them to have the experiences they need to finish their work on the earth. And I think that that has helped because I had so many wonderful clinicians who did my training in hospice.
Speaker 1:And, that has helped me understand that there is more to medicine than a pill or, a therapy or I mean, and when I speak therapy, it's, you know, like interventions that are radiation or chemotherapy. I think there's there's a lot more to doctoring than than just what people think of. But I've had some pretty cool experiences where and I there was it was interesting. I had parts of me who were like, oh, that is you know, you you didn't you didn't do really anything for the patient. And but on the flip side, I connected with that patient.
Speaker 1:I had one first or that came to mind quite a bit when I was listening to Pat Ogden's discussion, about sensorimotor, therapy. And I, this person came in with, lots of movement issues. And, it basically had, you know, they the the medical community had given him diagnoses that I mean, I'm not gonna argue that. That wasn't my place to argue it because I wasn't in a position. That wasn't my point or my my job at that moment.
Speaker 1:But I was able to connect with him, to the point where I recognized, you know, I had I I honestly until the conference, I had not really heard much from Pat Ogden other than your podcast. But I had done some reading, from Peter Levine and, and just researching that because I do deal with so many people that have, chronic pain or, chronic problems that we can't really explain, and and medical interventions don't seem to help. And so I had done that kind of research just to see if I could have some understanding. Well, this gentleman comes in and he's having all of this weird motor problems. He can't complete certain tasks.
Speaker 1:And I'm talking about simple things like typing on a typewriter or a keyboard, using his cell phone, that sort of thing. And, and I I was able to sit there and look at it. And then I because I I caught it was it was so cool because Peter Levine had talked about specific, actions that can happen while a person's having these blocks in their movement. And I was able to see it and recognize it. That's the big thing is you have to be able to recognize it.
Speaker 1:So I was able to recognize it and then I was able to ask the appropriate questions in a way that would not be intrusive because that's another big deal is I think that as physicians, we just wanna get to the the crux of the problem. Well, that's the opposite of what you wanna do when somebody's got trauma. Right? And so I was able to to kind of ask some questions about when this had all kind of started for him and that sort of thing. And it turns out all of his movement issues came up after a traumatic event.
Speaker 1:And and even though there was nothing I could do, he was he was coming in for a situation that had nothing to do with it. So I it wasn't my job. Like I said, I was not supposed to be involved with any of that, but I just happened to see it. But we connected. And he has come in since then.
Speaker 1:And when he need that connection, I care of the medical things that he's coming in for, but we always connect back to that. And he will tell me what he's doing to overcome some of these these things. And, it's been very fascinating, how how even though I was just kind of a bystander and I didn't actually do anything to help him, that connection, I can tell, has been healing for him and honestly for me, because it's pretty cool to be able to connect with somebody like that even though I honestly don't have any real world experience with having, you know, that ex exact thing, you know, these motor problems that, you know, keep me from doing my life skills. Right? I mean, this is pretty much disabled him.
Speaker 1:But I was able to connect just because I had done this research for a whole another reason, which I thought was kind of funny. I don't know if you picked up on this, but in the conference, a lot of these clinicians talked about how they stumbled into this field. Like it wasn't like they said, I want to learn about trauma. I'm gonna go out and learn about it so I can do this. It was they were curious about one little thing, and it just trickled in, and suddenly, they just landed.
Speaker 1:Right? It's it's was very it's interesting how that seemed to be a theme.
Speaker 2:Maybe you are mid stumble.
Speaker 1:Mid stumble. Yeah. Exactly. I think so. I feel like I have I have I've always had the interest of these odd, you know, idiosyncrasies in medicine that nobody could explain.
Speaker 1:But as I have learned, I'm like, oh, I think I I think I found something. I think I found an answer to this. It's pretty cool. I oh, and have you ever read anything about Gabor Mate? He's a author of the body says no.
Speaker 1:It's it's a book, and, honestly, I have not read it recently, so I could probably be saying this wrong. But it's a book. He talks about he's an internist, and he talks about how the body you know, again, echoing from the conference, the body holds all of this. And people's patterns of behavior then affect how the body functions. And you can he's actually done all kinds of research on how the it's a connection between the brain, so the neuro psycho endocrine system, and how it affects the autoimmune diseases and cancer and and all of this stuff.
Speaker 1:And it has really between that and the body keep score has really helped me, really focus on when I see a patient come into my office, I don't just focus on, oh, you have pain in this location. I think, oh, as become more educated, I've tried to use certain questioning just to kind of get a gist. You know, I mean, not all of these people have trauma, of course, but it's surprising how many have. Doing a quick screening that takes less than a minute, I can usually have a good idea. Does this person need to get behavioral health help or is this person solely more at least based on the initial screening more something that I need to focus more on just the medical itself?
Speaker 1:Gabor Mate has really helped me realize that this is a huge a huge portion of our medicine that just honestly we have not been trained on. I know it's new research. I know that, you know, some of my my colleagues may think, oh, it's you know, we don't really know if that's true, what you know, whatever. But there is research out there. And if you look at, studies, you see that there is I mean, any rheumatologist would would say that a lot of his patients have had hard lives.
Speaker 1:I mean, we look at indigenous people. They tend to have more trauma. Now I mean, of course, that is totally a generalization. But in general, they they they have you know, they're more in more rural areas. It's difficult lifestyle.
Speaker 1:There's financial issues. And There's historical trauma. Yes. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.
Speaker 1:And you put all of that together, and you will see in these indigenous populations, the the rates of autoimmune diseases are atrocious. I mean, just off the charts. And, and I'm not talking about just one location. I've worked in multiple places, and you will see this as a trend across the board. And it was really cool in Lowenski's lecture about, dissociative amnesia.
Speaker 1:He actually it was really awesome. He put together the ACE study. So let me back up for a little bit. His, his lecture was about dissociative amnesia, and he kind of gave a history kind of like you did in one of your podcasts. You kinda gave some background about I'm gonna probably I because this is all new to me, so I may mess up these names, but Chenay and and Charcot Freud and all of these people.
Speaker 1:Right? And he he kinda gave a history of all that. And then he gave some more recent literature, and one of those was the ACE study. And it was really awesome because in that lecture, he gave the study and gave the analysis of how they came across all of their their their data. And then he started putting like, I would say there were probably 15 or 20 slides of a score higher than five.
Speaker 1:You know, is you would look at the a score higher than five and a score of zero, and you would see the opposite. So for example, suicidality. If a score was greater than four, it was off the charts. If a score was zero, it was just very minute. And you saw this trend, and it had to do with lifespan.
Speaker 1:They had one on, anxiolytics that were prescribed, alcoholism, liver problems, and these were not all alcoholic liver issues. It was autoimmune and viral and all these other causes. And so you start you start looking at the research and how there's a lot more because that adverse childhood experience study shows there is so much linkage that we don't completely understand. And we there's just so much there that it's just hard to say you it's hard to just just ignore. You know?
Speaker 1:If you're if you see that study, you can't just say, oh, you know, that's just chance. When you see, you know, 15 to 20 slides of you look at the score that's high and you see the problem is really high and you look at the people who have had minimal traumas and they they don't have as you know that population didn't have that many, many of that issue. It's just hard to to ignore that and to write it away as oh, that's just statistics or this study wasn't done right or whatever. Because especially because the first childhood experience research that I saw or that I looked at, again, I'm not I have not done detailed research on this. But just from what I could tell, it was a pretty decent sized study, and and there was a lot of information that came from it.
Speaker 1:Right? It was it was pretty powerful that when he started putting up all those slides.
Speaker 2:Significant bullet points.
Speaker 1:Significant. Yes. Exactly. Significant bullet points that someday when I become an expert, I'm gonna teach my my my colleagues. Yes.
Speaker 1:This
Speaker 2:conversation will continue in another episode. Thank you for listening. Thank you for listening. Your support of the podcast, the workbooks, and the community means so much to us as we try to create something together that's never been done before, not like this. Connection brings healing, and you can join us on the community at www.systemsbeat.com.
Speaker 2:We'll see you there.